Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brandt
and I are joined today by Gassanawe Skydeer,
former Grand Chief of Genowagi and CEO and President
Skydeer Consulting. Chief Skydeer shares a role
as Grand Chief right in the midst of key negotiations
when Hydro -Quebec began to rebuild and repair
itself. These included working to secure approvals
from the U .S. from the New York State Energy
Research and Development Authority and addressing
concerns from environmental justice groups. Chief
Skydeer talks about the interconnectedness of
all things, the importance of balance with the
natural world, and the role of Indigenous peoples
as protectors of the environment. Under her leadership,
the community became co -owners of the energy
infrastructure, securing a guaranteed 10 % equity
stake with the opportunity to purchase up to
49%. This was a historic, groundbreaking agreement,
the first time a First Nation in Quebec co -owned
a major infrastructure project with the Crown
Corporation. Gassana hawe, Skydeer, Sago, so
great to see you again. Thanks for joining us.
Thank you, Rob, for having me. Hi, Mark. How
are you? Hi. Very well, Gaston. Welcome back.
Great to be speaking with you again. We're looking
forward to our chat today. You joined us in London
for our second annual Canadian Indigenous Investment
Summit. And since then, I seem to bump into you
at just about every other conference going. You
are in demand as a speaker. and I know you've
got a lot of other things on your plate, so I
appreciate the time spending a few minutes with
us today. Absolutely. Thank you for the invite.
You've had a really interesting background and
done some things over the years. Why don't you
start by telling us about your background, how
you rose to Grand Chief, the Mohawks of Kahnawake,
and then we'll get into... what you're up to
today. Okay, so first off, I grew up in the community
here in Kahnawake. Got the privilege to go to
Mohawk Immersion School, where I was taught predominantly
by, you know, other Mohawk people. So getting
to learn my language, culture, and being strong
in my identity from a very early age, I think
was important. Because as I chose to leave the
community, go to high school in Montreal and
college, and then eventually moving out to Florida
at the young age of 20 to pursue a dream to play
women's professional tackle football. I always
carried that everywhere I went, you know, just
being proud of where I came from and being able
to speak my language. And after football didn't...
pay like I guess any women's sport doesn't have
you know the equity as you would see with men's
sports I opted to go back to school I went to
well actually because I graduated from a college
in Canada they didn't transfer all of my credits
in Florida so I had to start community college
basically all over only my French credits transferred
But it guaranteed me entrance to any Florida
university. So because I was already living in
Orlando, I opted to just go to UCF. So University
of Central Florida, where I graduated in 2008
with a bachelor's degree in psychology and then
subsequently moved back to Kahnawake that summer.
And I thought, you know, maybe I would pursue
a career in social services or maybe become a
psychologist. quickly that door closed and they
told me come back when I have a master's or a
PhD because that didn't really get me, it wouldn't
get me far. So I ended up working in a tobacco
factory for about nine months, which we know
was an experience in itself, but it wasn't what
I went to school to do. I definitely wanted to
reach higher and see how I could give back to
the community. So the election was happening
that summer of 2009. And I ran and on my first
attempt, I was successful. And then started the
political career. And I remember my grandmother.
My father's mom asking me, what do you know about
politics anyways? You know, you just move back.
And I said, well, when you grew up in Kahnawake,
you can't help but be political, right? Going
through the Oka crisis in 1990 and just, you
know, I guess when you figure what's ingrained
in your DNA from all your ancestors, you know,
we are a very political people. So I said, well,
I'm going to learn along the way because that's
just, you know, the kind of person I am. Right
away, I hit the ground running and got involved
in the files and portfolios that I felt resonated
with myself, being education, you know, youth,
justice and laws, governance. And yeah, so I
was a council chief for 12 years. And then unfortunately,
our grand chief at the time, Joe Norton, passed
away in the middle of the term. Well, more toward
the end of the term, but nonetheless. while he
was Grand Chief, so that seat became vacant.
And I just remember, you know, talking to my
family and people in my circle, like, you know,
is this my time? And I know my mom was not too
keen, and she was like, it's going to be really
hard for you, you know, as the first woman, as
a gay woman, you know, maybe you should just
stay in the council. Chief position, you know,
you could ride that out as long as you want.
And I was like, no, I think it's my time. I'm
going to shoot my shot. And no matter what happens,
you know, I'm going to be good. Like, I'll just
pivot and do something else then if I'm not successful.
But as we know, history was made. I did become
the first woman Grand Chief here in the community
in 2021. It was one term. I wasn't reelected
after, but. To me, it was fine because you can't
do this kind of job forever. You know, it's very
difficult to make people happy. No matter what
kind of decision you make, there's naysayers,
there's the haters. So after a 15 -year career
in public service, it was time for me to do something
else. I would have loved to have done another
term. I think there's some... Legacy projects,
if you will, like obviously the Hydra project
was a major milestone that we'll get into later,
but also being able to cut the ribbon at the
opening of our cultural arts center, which will
house our new... cultural center museum theater
and a tourism office so that will is slated for
spring of 2026 so upcoming next year but i still
got to stay involved i'm still the chairperson
of the capital campaign so i'll still in essence
be there just not as grand chief but it's equally
going to be bittersweet and i'm so looking forward
to that i love that i'm jealous as well that
you speak the language so well And did you, was
it spoken at home? Did you learn it there as
well as at school? Because unfortunately for
my generation and even my parents, although my
grandparents spoke it, they did not speak it
around us. And it was a time when they were still
almost ashamed of their own culture. And so there
was a lost. a lost generation, and it's coming
back now. But was it all around you growing up?
It definitely wasn't in my home. My mom's not
a speaker. My grandparents on my mom's side didn't
really speak that much, but it was more my dad's
side of the family, like all his mom. So my grandmother
and all of her sisters, they were all teachers
in the school system. So they were. you know,
kind of catalyst for language revitalization
in the community. So whenever I seen them, you
know, it was like an obligation that I had to
speak the language or, you know, they would always
talk to me and force me to have to answer. So,
yeah, I definitely had it around me. And, you
know, in the community, it was being promoted
a lot more because of, like you said, that lost
generation and the impacts of. residential school
and indian day school which we did have a few
of them here in the community so yeah i always
thought it was important and then you know some
of my my dear friends when we left elementary
school you know the the kids who knew that we
were going to be going to private school in the
city would tease us and they were like oh you're
going to lose your language and you know you're
you're just gonna not be connected to the community
anymore and so we made it uh kind of like a vow
that we, you know, we're going to speak as much
as we can. So we did. We spoke when we played
sports. We spoke at lunch. We spoke when we wanted
to talk about other people without them knowing
what we were saying. So we found ways to keep
it vibrant and alive, even though we, you know,
attended school in Montreal. So just for background
for our UK audience, your community is located
just outside of Montreal? In Quebec? Yeah, it's
like a 15 -minute drive to get to the heart of
the city. So it's really close. But the beauty
of it is we're on the other side of the Mercier
Bridge on the south shore. So it's kind of like
we have St. Lawrence Seaway. St. Lawrence Seaway.
That's right. Again, our UK investors over here
might not exactly know what the south shore is
in the context of Montreal. So on the St. Lawrence
Seaway there. Yeah. So we kind of have our own
little nice nooked away community that we're
surrounded either by water or, unfortunately,
major infrastructure. You know, everything cuts
through our territory. The Mercia Bridge, the
highways, 132, 138, Highway 30. So in essence,
we're like isolated. But you know what? That's
our economy now. And when you look at other First
Nations across Canada and Quebec, you know, a
lot of them have natural resources, mining, logging.
Our resources, our location. And as a result
of that, we have a lot of entrepreneurs in Kahnawaka.
We have a lot of business. I think there's over
600 businesses in the community. So we're thriving
in terms of, you know, jobs. economic development.
There's still a lot more that we could do, obviously,
but, you know, we definitely see our opportunities
because of our location and our proximity to
downtown Montreal being, you know, more abundant.
And we have some great infrastructure here in
the community. We have a hospital, right? We
have our own hospital here, our own police force,
our own fire brigade. So in essence, we're our
own self -running community. And I think people
would be very surprised and impressed, you know,
to see just how good we have it here. And I think
that's why it's our responsibility to ensure
that other First Nations have the same kind of
lifestyle, right? Live in a nice home, two cars,
be able to go on vacations. I mean, I think that's
what everybody would like to provide for their
families and, you know, to feel that you're taken
care of. So, you know, I come from a line of
hard workers. My grandfather and his five brothers
were all ironworkers. They worked all over the
eastern coast, New York, Washington, Boston.
And so, you know, they were away a lot and then
they would come home on the weekends. But ironworking
is what was like the first major industry that
brought revenue into this territory. When you
mentioned about the iron industry, is this part
of the group that was seen in historic, well,
for us now, they're historic photos when they're
building the Empire State Building and different
business in the States and in Canada, some of
the taller structures were always the Indigenous
people were the iron workers going up to these
heights. Is that part of that background you're
referring to? Yes, absolutely. When they were
building the Dominion Bridge here. connecting
South Shore and to the island of Montreal. You
know, they were trying to hire the Mohawks just
to pick up all of the scraps and, you know, rivets
and whatever was left over on the ground. And
then, you know, they start scaling all the way
to top and they were like, oh, I guess they're
not afraid of heights. Maybe we should hire them
to do some connecting or some bolting and, you
know, some of the other more dangerous jobs,
I guess, if you could call it that. And they
opened it. opened up to it with open arms and,
you know, I guess the rest is history, as they
say. And yeah, you could find those historic.
documentaries. If you look up Mohawk Skywalkers,
Mohawk Ironworkers, there's all kind of documented
history. I remember my grandfather worked on
the original World Trade Center, the Twin Towers.
And I think when I was 12, my mom took me to
New York City and we went up there when you could
still go on the observation deck and you could
actually feel the building swaying and, you know,
just how proud she was. uh telling me that her
father my grandfather had worked on that building
and the days before there was a lot of or much
health and safety uh considered no safety ropes
just um yeah i know it's it's wild to think that
they weren't tied off yeah and worked on various
bridges right tampan sea bridge brooklyn bridge
you name it there's like i said so much documented
history of our people and not just from Garawage,
right? Mohawks from all the different communities
and a lot of natives even from other nations.
So they definitely weren't afraid of heights.
It's really interesting. There must have been
something in how you approach the world, your
ancestors and both of your Mohawk today and how
you see the world and approach the world. It's
fearless. It's being fearless. That's ultimately
what I think it is, is in our spirituality and
our understanding of our time here on earth.
It's like this isn't the end. And we're spirit
beings having a human experience. And, you know,
we believe in the creator. We believe in our
ancestors. So when it's our time to go, as we
say, the notch on the stick, then it's our time
to go. And in the time that we're here, you know,
we try to live without fear and just go through
the motions and live life to the fullest. And
if I aren't working. was what was providing,
like I said, for families back then and creating
an opportunity to have a pension. I don't know
if you know this, but Native people in Canada
weren't entitled to a pension. We weren't eligible.
So to have that coming from the United States
and the fact that we have the Jay Treaty, which
allowed Canadian -born, if I could call it that.
Natives to go live in the U .S., work in the
U .S., go to school there, you know, get a U
.S. Social Security card. But our brothers and
sisters to the south aren't allowed to come to
Canada with the same kind of benefits and privileges.
It's unfortunate, but we are working on that.
But if it wasn't for that ability, you know,
that the U .S. allowed that, you know, I think
our reality would have been a lot different.
So thankfully, they exercised those rights and
were able to. to traverse freely. They didn't
have to have a green card or an alien resident
card or any of that kind of stuff. They recognized
the fact that as Iroquois, Haudenosaunee people,
we predated that border when it was installed
and that we had that right to cross freely. Yeah,
absolutely. But as you say, those rights are
not being respected today. But it sounds like
you're working on that. you know, our U .S. born
brothers and sisters and family members, right?
It's such a disparity, like depending on where
you're born, what you're entitled to and what
you're eligible for. So to be able to get some
kind of legislation, that's what we were pushing
for instead of, you know, some kind of policy
where if the next government comes in, they could
just, you know, eradicate it. So we wanted something
long -term, something permanent. I know it's
still being worked on. Regional chief. of ontario
abram benedict who was formerly the grand chief
of aguasasne him and i were working hand in hand
and also with the co -chair who was the chief
of the saint regis mohawk tribe on the state
side so it's funny all of the co -chairs were
all mohawks from different communities when the
j treaty border alliance brings you know nations
and tribes on both sides of the border right
across Canada, United States, all the way to
the West Coast. So it just goes to show our resilience
and our strength and being able to bang the table
and try to really push for, you know, all of
our people. Yeah. And maybe take us up to date
today. When you're not speaking at conferences,
you're consulting and you've got a couple of
firms of your own that you're... you're engaged
with? Yeah, so in July 2024, as I mentioned,
I ran again for Grand Chief. I wasn't successful
in my re -election. So I took the summer off,
which was a much needed recharge. And as I was
sitting on my back porch in the summer, just
soaking up the sun and thinking about, well,
what's going to be my next chapter? I was like,
well, you know what? I love doing what I do.
I love being out there, meeting other people,
seeing what other nations are doing, where we're
advancing and economic development. and governance
and, you know, like I said, creating better opportunities
for the next generation of youth that are up
and coming. So I wanted to go out there and share
my story, you know, to inspire other young people
who might be maybe worried about their identity,
who they are and being shamed or not thinking
that they can reach, you know. being a grand
chief or being anything they want for that matter.
Right. Cause I know how it is growing up in a
small community. There's a lot of bullying. There's
a lot of lateral violence, right? There's a lot
of hurt people and it's going to take us time
to, to get over, you know, what we've been through.
But that comes with work and it comes with healing
and it comes with, you know, seeing role models
also. So I launched Skydeer Consulting and whether
I'm actually consulting or from just out there,
like I said, being a public speaker, getting
on panels, wanting to talk about the different
milestones and achievements that we've made here
in Kahnawake to tell other First Nations that
it's possible, you know, and other nations are
doing great things as well. So, you know, just
to be able to share that information, that knowledge,
we should all be striving to lift each other
up. And yeah, so that's what I started to do
in August. And it happened where I launched Skydeer
Consulting was at a CCIB networking event. So
I was immediately surrounded by, you know, other
consultants or professionals who said, you know
what, this is great. I want to support you. I
want to help you. And, you know, I immediately
had a resource base to help push me along. you
know a couple of months later that's when i was
offered a position at dable advisory and consulting
services to be vice president and and help them
along as well but they already came with a team
of 18 so what in essence how we help each other
is i have the network they have all of the resources
of the team and a whole offering, service offering
that I don't have, right? I mean, I bring to
the table what I bring to the table, my experience,
my knowledge from 15 years in public service
and politics and just life experience as well,
right? I mean, I did go to school. Like I said,
I had that bachelor's degree in psychology. So
understanding people and relationships, that's
my strength. So when I jokingly say, yeah, my...
forefathers were iron workers but I'm a bridge
builder but with people and that's kind of been
you know my strength and going across the country
and just generating this amazing network and
I'm just I feel like I'm just at the tip of something
even greater like I was even featured on the
cover of Forward Magazine last week at the Forward
Summit West in Calgary right And, you know, just
people coming up to me and even asking me to
autograph their magazine. I was like, oh, my
God, this is a little bit of a shock. But, you
know, if people look at you as a role model and
somebody that, you know, is going to do something
with their lives, like I'm always saying, you
know, there's so many people who have so much
passion and they want to do something for their
nation, for their community, but they just don't
know how. And I'm telling them there's all kind
of resources and all you have to have is an idea
and belief that you can make it happen and find
the right people. And, you know, you can make
great things happen. And so that's kind of what
I'm trying to help do, whether it's through SkyDeer
or through DABLE, is go into nations and communities,
inspire them, help them set up whatever it is
that they need to continue to strive and grow
and build. build up their people, build up their
nation, build up their community, build their
economy. And we do have a lot of brilliant people.
It's just they haven't been given the opportunity.
We weren't given the ability to apply for funding
or to get loans in the past. You know, it's such
a different time that I've seen and the changes
in the last 10 to 15 years. And it's really inspiring.
So I think we're going to see a lot more success
stories. I mean, even when I was there in London
talking about the Haisla Cedar LNG project and,
you know, getting to meet Chief Crystal and just
her experience. I mean, there's another formidable
woman leader who's making great things happen
for her people. And the stories are just going
to continue to mount. So it's a really exciting
time we're in. It sure is. And that's what brought
me back to Canada. Exactly just that. Maybe we
should talk a little bit about some of the projects
you're most proud of at the time when you were
Grand Chief. I think you mentioned Hydro Quebec
in that partnership. Maybe tell us a little bit
about how it came about and what is it? Hertel
or Champlain -Hudson Power Express line is a
line that runs from a substation here in La Prairie.
Like you said, it's on our unceded traditional
territory, runs all the way down Highway 15,
connects at the border and all the way down 87
into basically all through the Adirondacks, upstate
New York and into... New York City. It connects
at Queen's Astoria, but it will ultimately connect
to the grid there and power a million homes with
clean, renewable hydroelectricity. So at the
time, I guess they had been considering, you
know, this project for a good 12 years. And then
when the previous Grand Chief had heard about
the project, he was like, well. You got to include
us in this. You know, you're going to be cutting
through our backyard and in our unceded traditional
historical territory. So, you know, we want to
be involved. And at the time, we had already
been working on reconciling some of the historical
wrongs, I guess, from the community. Like, you
know, there was all this major infrastructure
and tower lines in our territory that weren't
being utilized. So they were decommissioned.
And they wanted them removed. So that happened.
And then for the ones that were still existing,
getting fair compensation, even going back retroactively
and getting some compensation for that. So the
relationship with Hydro -Québec had already started
to rebuild and repair itself. And then when this
project started... You know, I became Grand Chief
right in the middle of all of the negotiations
and the, I guess, trying to get approvals from
NYSERDA, which is like the... regulatory body
out there and then environmental justice groups
that weren't too keen on the project. You know,
so here comes a Mohawk woman out there talking
about Haudenosaunee, you know, the interconnectedness
of all things and us being in balance and wanting
to. As protectors of the environment and the
natural world, you know, being involved in this
project and being co -owners of the infrastructure
and what it would mean to our community. You
know, it's a deal for 40 years. We were guaranteed
a 10 % equity, 10 % stake in the project, but
with the ability to purchase up to 49%. So it
was historic and groundbreaking because it's
the first time. In this province specifically,
where you had a First Nation being co -owners
of a major infrastructure with the Crown Corporation
to the point where it even had to go to Quebec
City at the National Assembly and, you know,
give my, I guess, expression of how important
that this was going to be for the relationship
between, you know, the Native people in the province
and with the government. Again, they had to modify
legislation to allow it to happen, and it did
go through. The approvals happened through NYSERDA,
so everything went accordingly, and we penned
this historic deal. And the project, is it the
transmission line? Is it the generation as well?
Is that part of it? Well, that's part of the
purchase of the equity stake, I think. And is
it just Mohawks of Kahnawake? involved any other
first nations part of this one no it's just us
and and that's why i think a lot of those ej
groups were like saying well what about the nations
whose land was flooded historically to allow
you know hydro hydro dams and hydro you know
like all of that environmental destruction and
why are only you benefiting and so forth we said
look We can't go back in history and undo what
happened, but we can move forward and we could
be that kind of intermediary with Hydro -Quebec
to say, you know, you've done your best to restore
relations with the Mohawks of Kahnawake, but
what about the other nations? What about the
Innu? What about the Cree? What about the Naskapi?
You know, there's all these nations that are
still, yeah, all this historical unjust. That
happened with them and you got to work on it.
And then at the time when the Hydro project on
our end was starting to get momentum was when
Sophie Brichoux was the CEO. It was the first
time Hydro Quebec had ever had a woman CEO. And
it was the first time, like I said, there was
a woman grand chief myself here in Kahnawake.
And when we first started meeting, we said the
approach that we have to take on this project
has to be different. We've got to think outside
the box. It's got to be people first, relationships
first, not always about bottom line. You know,
because once you have that, because no one had
really been considering the relations with First
Nation. It was just like, you know, we have business
to do. We want to expand. We need to grow. And
we're just going to do what we have to do. And
we'll give them an impact benefit agreement,
a one -time payout. go about our business, but
that's not the reality of what nations want to
see anymore. And they want to be partners and
they want to have participation. They want their
people to be able to develop economies of scale
based on these projects that are going through
their territories. And it was never really fair.
And I think now that we have the opportunity
to get in the play box. or the sandbox, I'll
say, and be able to participate, people are going
to see a major shift, like I said, because we're
brilliant people. We bring something different
to the table. Mark, I impressed you with this
two -eyed seeing. you know, vision of the way
we need to go into the future now with taking,
you know, the gifts and strengths of what the
non -Indigenous bring to the table and bringing
it in balance with our view, worldview of, you
know, the interconnectedness of all things and
our environmental stewardship and responsibility
to our Mother Earth and how we need to have those
things be in balance. And it works. We find win
-win situations now. And it's just going to be,
I think, the trajectory moving forward. And did
you see from that time a change in Hydro Quebec's
approach to their future projects? Absolutely.
I understand this was a real inflection point
for everybody. Yep, absolutely. They came up
with an Indigenous strategy. Actually, a new
CEO ended up coming in. Sophie Bruchu didn't
see eye to eye with one of the environment ministers
that had been appointed by Quebec. And she resigned
her position. And then a new guy came in, Michael
Sabia, which I was at first like, oh, my God,
you know, I hope he has the same kind of vision
and sentiment that Sophie did. And he really
did. And I'm happy to call him a friend. I text
him every now and then. We got to do a panel
together at the Major Projects Coalition in Toronto
a couple of weeks ago. That was a great panel,
by the way. uh michael speak before i've never
seen him so engaged as he was talking to you
about the hydro quebec project and when the session
finished he was upset because he had a lot more
he wanted to talk about and say and um so you
definitely have developed a close relationship
And he's sincere and he's real and what he says
he means. And because now, you know, they have
this ambitious strategy by 2035 and all the projects
that they want to do to ensure, you know, Quebec's
moving toward net zero and wanting to make sure
that we have the energy supply needed going into
the future. This approach now that, you know,
we trailblazed as the Mohawks of Kahnawake. is
now kind of like an expected standard, right?
And nations are coming to us saying, how did
you get this? And, you know, help us. And, you
know, we, although I'll say we, although I'm
not a part of the MCK anymore, I had gone to
CDPQ, right? The investment fund here in the
province to talk about the potential of us. Kind
of creating a partnership to be able to fund
other First Nations who want to buy larger amounts
of equity stake and showing them how we were
able to get this project done with Hydro. And
yeah, so we like I said, we're definitely going
to see the success stories continue because there's
there's partners, there's willingness to collaborate,
there's thinking outside of the box. There's
already kind of been this. you know, trailblazing
that has happened. So this is the trail we're
on now. And you're only going to see First Nations
participate more in these major projects, major
infrastructure. And it's about time, right? And
I think, you know, as the original peoples of
these lands, we should be able to share in the
success and the wealth. I'll say that gets generated
by these major projects. You know, there's so
many billions of dollars being thrown around,
whether it's through mining, logging, like I
said, all these different projects. And now energy
is a big space where we're seeing First Nations
participation. But it has to also impact, you
know, the broader community. Like when we talk
about the planning, I think for the next 40 years
for this community and, you know, what is the
revenue is going to be used for. Although we
are very advanced, there's still a lot of needs.
There's a lot of infrastructure needs. There's
half of the community still runs off of well
and septic at the extremities of the territory.
So they're not tied to our water system. needs
for our language and culture revitalization there's
elders services there's you know there we have
a laundry list we need more office space you
know because we're growing as as professionals
and business people um you know to develop our
our lands we did have a major uh return of almost
350 acres from the quebec government when they
built the highway 30 so we have a lot of uh commercial
lands that can be developed into some major,
you know, revenue generating projects for the
community. And yeah, just to completely elevate,
you know, everybody's quality of life here in
the territory. So always striving for that more
education programs. more programs for our kids,
sports programs. I mean, that's always been already
at the forefront of everything, but that's why
the Cultural Arts Centre is so important because
not every child plays sports. And we know that
we have those who like to act and to sing. And,
you know, when we think about our cultural songs
and dances and all of that, that needs to come
back as well. Yeah, well done. Congratulations
on that. deal and everything you're, you're working
on since you are a great role model. And it's
been a pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you
very much. Yeah. Great to have you with us. And
we'll see you again soon. I'm sure. Until then,
take care, be well. Hope to see you again next
April. I'll be there. Back in London. I absolutely
love London and I will be back. Thank you to
Gus and Aoi Skydeer for sharing your insights
with us. And thank you for viewing and listening.
Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review
on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for
listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.