Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Branton
are joined today by Senator P .J. Prosper, a
proud Mi 'kmaq lawyer representing Nova Scotia,
Mi 'kma 'ki. He served as chief for his home
community of Buckingham and later as AFN regional
chief for Nova Scotia and Newfoundland prior
to his appointment to the Senate in 2023. He
has just released the First Nations priorities
for the first 100 days of the new parliament,
priorities that he believes can reasonably be
executed in that time and which align with the
priorities of recently elected Prime Minister
Mark Carney. These initiatives are also outlined
in his report, Reconciliaction, which is the
result of a 2024 listening tour that Senator
Prosper launched throughout the Mi 'kmaq traditional
territory known as Mi 'kma 'ki. During this unique
endeavor, he met with over 1 ,700 individuals
across the region. This territory stretches from
Newfoundland to the Gasp region of Quebec. It
includes the entirety of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia,
and Prince Edward Island, as well as parts of
New Brunswick and Quebec. Good day and welcome,
Senator Paul, sometimes known as PJ Prosper.
It's good to see you. Thanks for joining us.
Real pleasure to have you with us. Yes, a real
honor to have you as Senator. You're the first
Senator we've had on our program. And you're
one of the first, I think, Indigenous Senators
in Senate in Canada. Happy to be here and glad
we were able to connect earlier. Great. Senator,
maybe we'll start a little bit about your own
personal background. And we can start from the
beginning. I think you're speaking to us today
from your home community and growing up on the
east coast of Canada and now today sitting in
the Senate in Ottawa. What did that journey look
like? Wow, quite a journey. As you mentioned,
I am here in my home community, Mi 'kmaq community
called Bukhne Mi 'kmaq Nation here in Nova Scotia.
And I was born and raised here. And I grew up
in a family of 14. Anne Prosper, my mother, who
was a single mother, raised us all. And it was
an incredible experience. Later, as many do,
we leave communities and we seek out education.
So I went to Sydney, which is in Cape Breton,
at University College Cape Breton. That's what
it was called then. Now it's Cape Breton University.
I got an undergraduate degree, a Bachelor of
Arts, and then later went to Dalhousie Law School
in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and got my law degree,
was called to the bar in 1995. And since then,
I have worked for... Many organizations in Nova
Scotia, Mi 'kmaq organizations, doing a variety
of things, claims, research, legal advisory services,
litigation. Later, I sort of decided to take
on more of a political role, so I was elected
chief in my community of Bakunke. Back in 2013
and seven years later, I was elected by the chiefs
of Nova Scotia and Newfoundland to be their regional
chief with the Assembly of First Nations. So
I was essentially a chief for chiefs and did
that for a number of years. In 2013, I was appointed
to the Senate, and so I'm in my second year,
and it has been quite an experience. Can I hear
more about your mother, who raised as a single
mother? Yeah, yeah, no, I mean... An incredible
upbringing. My father died when I was two, Wilford
Prosper. So my mother was essentially my mother
and father and raised us all. She had some basic
rules. You go to school. If you don't go to school,
you go to work. And if you don't do either of
those two things, you're out the door. So it
was an incredible time. I mean, it was humble
beginnings, as was with most families within
the community. But she was a highly respected
person within the community and helped many in
addition to a number of, you know, she took in
people from the community as well. and considered
them part of our family. So, incredible experience.
I really feel good and appreciate that sort of
background. Wow. Sounds like that was a bit of
a model for you of service. Absolutely. I must
admit that there have been a lot of Mi 'kmaq
women that played an important role in my life.
At different times, and certainly Mi 'kmaq men
as well, but I think Mi 'kmaq women have played
a much more significant role in just helping
me and guiding me along the way, which, you know,
I really appreciate it. Wow, that's great to
hear. And maybe bring us up to date then, your
Senate experience of a couple of years. That
sounds like a new... a new chapter for you? It
is a new chapter. It's a new experience for many.
I'm sure when people start out in life, they
don't automatically say, I'm going to become
a senator. It's something that just happens.
Maybe first explain for our listeners and viewers
outside of Canada how the Canadian Senate and
what its function is in Parliament. It's known
as the upper chamber or the chamber of a sober
second thought. There are 105 senators appointed
throughout various regions throughout Canada,
10 of which are from Nova Scotia. So I'm one
of 10 Nova Scotia senators. We are appointed
by the Governor General with advice from the
Prime Minister. And there's a selection committee
that vets proposed applicants and felt quite
fortunate to be successful in my bid through
that process. I owe a lot to... Former Senator
Danny Christmas, who was the first Mi 'kmaq senator
appointed to the Senate. He was a long -term
mentor of mine. And for the most part, this wasn't
on my radar. I never thought of it. I sort of
was always involved on the other side of the
table, you know, with government, you know, in
terms of negotiations and discussions. There
was an opportunity when I was before Senate committee.
I believe we were talking about child welfare.
I've been before that committee a number of times.
And it just so happened to be chaired by then
-Senator Danny Christmas. And I don't know what
it was. Something clicked. And it got me to think
about that being a possibility to help. advance
Indigenous issues across this country. And so
you're appointed. How many Indigenous senators
are there today out of the 105? I think there
is approximately 11 senators who are Indigenous
of different nations, certainly some Métis as
well, Inuit as well. So it's an incredible group
and we try to support. one another when we can.
Talk a little bit about a listening tour you've
done, which is a great example of how a senator
stays connected with those they represent, as
well as all Canadians. Would you like to talk
a little bit about, explain to our listeners
over here in the UK about your listening tour
and some of the key issues that you found? Sure.
Well, there's no real instruction book for senators
when they undertake their roles and duties. We
are parliamentarians and we do have core functions,
which is sort of the meat and potatoes of what
we do. We sit on committees, Senate committees.
I previously sat on the Indigenous Peoples Committee.
Also, given my legal background, I sat on the
Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee. So
the objective of those committees is to study
and hopefully improve proposed legislation in
the form of bills. Usually a lot of these bills
come from the House of Commons. But we do have
occasion to have and bring forward Senate bills.
bills as well so that's a major component where
we invite witnesses experts on various subject
matters to provide evidence in committee a lot
of it is generated through questions and so you
know if you're interested in a particular subject
matter of a bill and how you know, discussions
took place in committee on that. You can certainly
go into the transcript or look it up on video.
Everything is part of the official record. So
whether you like it or not, when you speak, there
is a transcript, there is a video, and it's translated
into official languages. So that's a core feature,
committee work. Another core feature is General
work within the chamber itself. So there's a
number of things you can do by way of speaking
on specific matters. It could relate to certain
bills, certain actions of government, things
you want to bring forward to the attention of
parliamentarians. You can ask questions and government
is obligated to answer, provide answers to those
questions. So it's a real fascinating experience
to experience that. And of course, it works in
tandem with the House of Commons because the
bill has to pass both houses, the House of Commons
and the Senate, in order to become a valid law.
And Senator, is the Senate organized along party
lines? And so would the Senate be expected to
have a majority of senators? from the governing
party at any one time? That's a very good question.
There were certainly, through the history of
the Senate, it was very partisan along party
lines. And with then Prime Minister Justin Trudeau,
he essentially wanted to put in place a nonpartisan
Senate. So at the time, he removed all the senators
out of the Liberal caucus, where they used to
meet jointly with the members of Parliament.
And what that caused was senators to become more
independent. But there is a caucus, the Conservative
caucus, that exists within the Senate, but that's
the only partisan group. And so a lot of the
work of the Senate is organized through various
groups. So when you're first appointed as a senator,
you're unaffiliated as a senator, meaning you're
not part of a specific group. And a lot of new
senators who are appointed and are unaffiliated
automatically take the time to consider if they
want to join a group. which group. There's often
negotiations and discussions with these groups
and these new senators to join their group. And
the way I sort of relate that is you almost feel
like an orphan if you're not part of a group,
because a lot of the key decision making and
committee work and appointments and participation
in committees, things speaking in the chamber.
is largely negotiated through these Senate groups.
So there's various leaders of these groups that
come together and they negotiate on specific
bills, priorities, who's going to speak, what
issues go forward. And I'm not going to say it
all happens all nice and fun. All of these are
at times difficult negotiations. Such is the
nature of politics sometimes. You've got a relatively
new experience in the Senate, but longer time
in Indigenous politics. Have you noticed any
differences that you're prepared to talk about?
Well, it's interesting because it is a bigger,
there's a lot more machinery in Ottawa. And to
be a parliamentarian, you have to be in Ottawa.
And you have to participate within the parliamentary
system and processes. And that is something that
you need to climatize to. I'm very fortunate
to have some excellent staff. Claudine Santos,
who is my director of parliamentary affairs.
has significant experience. I was fortunate to
have her as my Director of Parliamentary Affairs.
Very fortunate to have an executive assistant,
Jennifer Coppage, somebody who has worked with
me for decades. And that's my core support. A
lot of the work we do really depends on having
that excellent support and guidance, because
to achieve certain things, it is important to
know how things function, both formally and informally.
And there are networks, there are mechanisms
by which People are in the know. There's a concept
of political capital that you have to recognize
and understand. So, you know, and just getting
back to the previous question about the Reconciling
Action Report, that listening tour provided a
basis which guided the work of my office, because
in addition to my core parliamentary functions,
It was important for me to have a connection
to people back home. So, yes, I am a senator
for Canada. I am a senator from the region of
Nova Scotia. But I also help represent a diverse
and special group of people, the Mi 'kmaq people.
And my listening tour, it was actually Claudine
Santos, her idea of undertaking this, which...
which was an excellent idea. And we went from
Newfoundland right to Quebec. Some of you might
know that area, which is the traditional territory
of the Mi 'kmaq people. It was otherwise known
as Mi 'kma 'ki. And so with this listening tour,
we generated a report. We vetted that with the
participants. So they added to that report before
it was finalized. And then, basically, we sent
that report to every parliamentarian, every minister
within government. And it's basically a key document
that is guiding the work of my office in terms
of the priorities that we want to see addressed
and dealt with through the course of this government.
You covered a big territory. How many people
did you have? Were you listening to on that tour?
Any highlights that really stick out to you?
Oh, there's many. I think we had discussions
with over 1 ,700 people. Hundreds and hundreds
of transcript notes that were taken. We met with
community leaders, chief and councils. We met
with Mi 'kmaq organizations. We met with tribal
councils. We even met with some Wulustugwe, which
is an adjacent nation in New Brunswick as well,
to have discussions with them. It was a rich
dialogue because it was important for me to hear
directly from them. I didn't want to try to presume
that I knew what the issues were, even though
I was a chief. Yeah, you'd been around and involved
in the community and larger, broader community
for years. Any surprises? Yeah. A number of surprises,
which was great because even though there were
similarities that exist across different districts,
our traditional territory is distinguished by
seven districts. And so there were similarities,
but there were unique differences as well. And
so it was really enlightening to find out how...
indigenous groups and organizations positioned
themselves, how they organized themselves and
strategically dealt with these issues. And, you
know, and I just feel so fortunate that they
really opened up and really saw value in participating
in this endeavor, which was, you know, something
that is ongoing. Well, I think in terms of timing
for that listening tour you and your chief of
staff Claudine couldn't have planned it better
because it's given a a strong foundation I think
for the indigenous people across Canada because
you've spoken to so many and of course there's
a relatively large number as you said of indigenous
senators and you know with the crisis that Canada
is facing it's the opportunity for indigenous
people to take the rightful place at the table
uh along with all other canadians as we plot
our way forward and i think it's a unique moment
rob and i've talked about this in in canadian
history because you have your rightful place
now and it's in the constitution your rights
have been recognized uh still a lot of work to
do but there's so much that's happened in the
past few years with the challenges and we want
to be outward looking and connecting across the
globe there's a an opportunity to shape the direction
of the next government's policy. So Mark Carney
has been recently re -elected as prime minister,
elected as his first time as prime minister,
but he's now serving as the elected leader. And
there are a number of priorities to look for
over the next days. And I think you've put together
a action plan or a list of what you'd like to
see achieved over the next hundred days. And
we've got a throne speech that will be coming
up just Just before we release the podcast, what
do you hope to see there and what are you expecting
for the future? Oh, very good. And thank you
for that overview. It is a really interesting
time we're coming up against here. And recently,
my office held a press conference with... A number
of other leaders, Mi 'kmaq leaders, Mi 'kmaq
chiefs, the national chief leaders of various
organizations like Ernie Daniels with the First
Nations Finance Authority, James Michael with
Dunn -Edley DeBeatom, you know, and it... The
Reconciling Action Report provided insight into
some of the key items that stem from a unique
collaborative approach that was Indigenous -led.
The whole idea is for Indigenous people to come
up with their own solutions for dealing with
key and fundamental issues. have been the product
of failed good intentions by successive governments.
And these Indigenous -led initiatives have value.
They have a history, and they need support. And
part of that exercise through that press conference
was to highlight to government What could be
the first 100 -day priorities of government?
Things that could be dealt with almost right
away with a stroke of a pen. Initiatives that
have a long history, that provide good value,
that have been vetted, that have been researched.
So it was an opportunity to bring those initiatives
front and center. With government, with government
ministers, we're working on a communication of
sending out our reconciling action report and
sending out our press release on the first 100
-day priorities for government to all ministers
as well, newly appointed ministers within cabinet
and as well others. And that's part of the advocacy
and focus we're looking to do to try to get real
change for some issues that have been long outstanding
within Indigenous communities throughout Canada.
That's so great to hear, Senator, because I think
of politicians as being the ones who are being
advocated to. And you've taken the initiative
to gather. all of those voices in your communities
and districts and then be their voice and advocate
to the larger group within the House of Commons
and Senate. So well done for you. And you've
come up with some priorities for those first
100 days. Do you want to talk about a few of
those? Sure. One of them is a very important
one that has certainly history within the previous
government. First Nations water legislation,
which recognizes the inherent jurisdiction of
First Nations over water and their right to clean
water within their communities to have appropriate
infrastructure for drinking water, wastewater,
source water. within their communities. It's
amazing how that is still a pressing issue within
many First Nation communities throughout Canada
when many people take it as a given right. It
stemmed from litigation, obviously, because what
prompts government sometimes is litigation. Yep,
that was litigation led by our firm, McCarthy
-Tatro, the class action against the federal
government that resulted in a financial settlement
as well as a commitment, a longer -term commitment
to take action finally and to bring forward legislation.
But as you're saying, that legislation is taking
a lot longer. Exactly. And, you know, thank you
for their efforts. And so, as you know, with
the change of government, all the existing business
that happens with government, the legislation
that is in process, it dies on the order paper,
is the saying, where it's sort of like a clean
slate. But it's still nonetheless a priority.
It's a priority that was addressed through a
co -development process with Indigenous Services
Canada, which I applaud and want to recognize
that approach because it doesn't happen often.
It has been subject to much debate within the
House. It didn't quite make it out of the House.
It didn't make it to third reading, but it made
it out of a committee, and there were significant
amendments. So, you know, we're hoping to revive
that piece of legislation. I have agreed to be
the Senate's sponsor. Every bill that happens,
either in the House or in the Senate, has a sponsor
to help shepherd that piece of legislation through.
the legislative process. So I have agreed to
do that to, for the previous act that died on
the order paper, but I have reconfirmed that
commitment to be the sponsor of whatever legislation
makes its way through. So, so that's water done.
It's a really innovative indigenous led co -developed
initiative with indigenous services, Canada that
seeks to address social income support for First
Nation community members by recognizing and developing
a social policy that actually works, a policy
that is reflective of the needs of community,
that is quite comparable to what recipients in
the province of Nova Scotia receive. So there's
a parity in that regard. There's also... you
know, economic development initiatives like special
purpose vehicles, which allows First Nations
to come together for a specific purpose at times
backed by a ministerial loan guarantee or some
secure credit or income stream. that allows them
to maybe get an equity share in a major development
project and creates access to potentially billions
of dollars to allow First Nation groups and collectives
to seize these opportunities that are available
to anyone that is doing a commercial or business
undertaken. For that to happen, it involves a
legislative amendment to the First Nations Financial
Management Act. Ernie Daniels spoke at our press
conference of the need to have these special
purpose vehicles. And I think it would create
a tremendous movement and positive change for
Indigenous peoples. Yeah, we've had Ernie on
the podcast and he's been at the summit. Oh,
very good. A real leader. And I know there is
that issue with the way the First Nations Finance
Authority is, the way it operates and the way
it is limited to assistance to... First Nations
themselves, but cannot, but typically with the
development, there's a, as you say, a special
purpose vehicle set up for the nation and it
does its commercial business through that entity.
And at the moment, FNFA cannot support those
entities. So yeah, that would open up a lot more
support if that change could be made. Certainly,
certainly. And when I was chief, just to finish
off, because I have a lot of positive things
to say about the First Nations Finance Authority.
When I was chief here in Battengau, we had a
highway development project that was going right
through our community where they were twinning
the highway. And we were actually able to...
get funding secured through our own source revenues
from the First Nations Finance Authority at rates
that were better than any rate you get from a
bank. And we all know what happens when you're
able to save one or two percent on a major loan
undertaken. And so we were able to leverage a
multi -million dollar highway. development travel
center, a Bayside travel center in our community,
which provides employment. We have our gaming
facilities up there. I mean, it's just one of
many stories of what, you know, that entity,
the First Nations Finance Authority is able to
do. And it's important to recognize these stories
and stories of success, you know, stories of
innovation, things of that nature. While we're
just talking about innovation, those opportunities
that you're highlighting, and if I'm not mistaken,
I think Chief Terry Paul, Clearwater Seafoods,
is in your neck of the woods, who was also at
the summit this year. But what would you be saying
to foreign investors, right? Whether they're
corporates with subsidiaries in Canada looking
at setting up, or perhaps it's just the capital
markets in understanding how to approach. that
we all hope to have that you're shaping at the
moment, and we hope that the throne speech reinforces
that. Sure. I want to begin by saying that Indigenous
people, First Nations people, are not against
development. As some people do think, they recognize
that they are in a unique position. They want
to see success in their communities. They want
to see progressive change within their communities.
But they recognize that they have this inalienable
responsibility to think within seven generations
through time the integrity of the land and resources.
And if development occurs, when development occurs,
here on Turtle Island, as we refer to North America,
or in Mi 'kma 'ki, the traditional territory
of the Mi 'kmaq people. These are the traditional
lands of the Mi 'kmaq people, specifically here.
We have constitutionally protected rights through
treaties, peace and friendship treaties that
predate the founding of Canada, the pre -Confederation.
We have an outstanding Aboriginal title interest
in the land that needs to be recognized. So it's
important for people to recognize that Indigenous
people want, you know, willing. to seize opportunities
to improve their communities, to generate employment,
to build capacity, and to contribute to this
incredible country of ours. And so that takes
a unique approach. It involves strategic research
on behalf of investors to know the climate that
exists within a specific area. to understand
a bit about the politics of how things take place
within a specific area because it differs from
community to community, from region to region.
So I will add that and I'm sure I can just go
on and on. But if there's anything further specific
to that, please, you know, highlight that and
I can further add to it. I think that's a great
summary, Senator. And that's exactly why we founded
the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit in
London two years ago and just had our second
summit not long ago. And we're actively planning
for next year. There's some great opportunities
in Canada. Canadians need to diversify beyond
North America, looking for partners and investment?
I think more so than ever with these shifting
geopolitical realities, the need to diversify
markets should be front and center. I think,
you know, our involvement in trying to familiarize
and speak out more on IPECA, which is an international
instrument that allows for trade to take place
between Indigenous people from various countries.
Canada is a signatory to that. I want to recognize
your efforts in bringing this forward and recognizing
the importance to have a summit. to speak about
Indigenous investment. There is a concept in
our language I'll share with you. Ilnu is a Mi
'kmaq term. There's actually a symbol for Ilnu
within our culture that basically stands for
all Indigenous people. Not just Mi 'kmaq, but
all Indigenous people. And there's a unique perception,
as you know, that exists with Indigenous people.
There's a term in Mi 'kmaq called ediwamtimo,
which means, for lack of a better way of saying
it, two -eyed seeing. When you're looking at
something, you view it through two eyes. So within
the context of science, you see it through a
Western science lens. But through the other eye,
you're able to incorporate traditional knowledge
and values and systems where they come together.
And the whole idea is not to take away from one
another, but to add further to it. And when it
comes to Indigenous business and Indigenous investment,
I think about it in terms of that two -eyed seeing
approach where you have ill -new -vation. Ill
-new -vation, where... It's just that ability
of ill -known people to seize opportunities and
to see things differently, which I think deserves
certain consideration within dialogue, certainly
within Canada and internationally. Love it. And
well said, Senator. And thank you again. I think
we've run out of time, but we could go on. I
appreciate you making time for us today. It's
a very busy, busy week, I know. And we'll let
you get back to all that's going on in Ottawa
and the rest of the country. So thank you again.
Thank you for this opportunity. I really appreciate
it. Thank you, Senator. Thank you. Thank you
to Senator Paul Prosper for sharing his insights
with us. And thank you for viewing and listening.
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listening to Drumbeats. Until next time.