Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brant
and I are joined today by Tabitha Bull, President
and CEO at the Canadian Council for Indigenous
Business. She discusses how community involvement
in projects, particularly through revenue sharing
and capacity building, empowers them to reinvest
in local and external initiatives, and engages
business stakeholders. This is exemplified by
renewable energy projects in Ontario, where policy
incentives encourage First Nation partnerships
by offering higher payments per kilowatt under
power purchase agreements. As a result, Indigenous
participation and investment is encouraged. Tabitha
Bull, CEO of the Canadian Council for Indigenous
Business, CCIB. Great to have you here again.
It was super to see you earlier at the summit.
And fantastic that you're back in London again.
You're through here regularly. You're in Paris,
I understand, as well. So it's great to have
you here. Yeah, thank you. It was great to be
able to participate again this year. And it's
great to be here for conversation. Excellent.
Yeah, thanks for taking the time out, Tabitha.
I know you're very busy and in demand. It was
not that long ago, was it? You were doing 17
media interviews one day in a row or something
like that. You're constantly doing speaking engagements.
So really appreciate the time you've taken out
to talk about the CCIB. It's an organization
that's near and dear to my heart because my very
first summer office job. 40 years ago, was working
for the CCNB, as it then was, the Canadian Council
for Native Business. When your parents took you
as a baby into the office with them, right? I
think CCNB was a year old, and I was a summer
hire to help build a directory of Native businesses
in Canada. And so to see where it's come to today
and where you've taken it, how many... members
do you have today? How big is that directory
today? Yeah. So today our membership is both
Indigenous and non -Indigenous businesses because
we were 40, now 41 years ago, started really
with a mandate of bringing corporate Canada and
Indigenous businesses together to grow the Indigenous
economy. So our membership is still Indigenous,
non -Indigenous businesses, corporate Canada
from every sector, every size across the country.
And then Indigenous businesses also in every
sector and every size. So today we have about
2 ,800 members and about 1 ,700 of those are
Indigenous businesses and the remainder are non.
And both like corporations, institutions, not
-for -profits, all looking. Law firms. Law firms,
that's right. McCarthy Techo is a good member
and good standing. Very good. Yes, exactly. And,
you know, we've seen significant growth. So about
five years ago, we just hit a thousand members.
So the last five years have been really exponential
growth as an organization. And who's been the
CEO for the last five years? That's right. I'm
going to say. Yes. So I did take over the leadership
five years ago, March of 2020. And the organization
has really grown. And I think, you know. it's
not just the CEO, I would say, and to all my
predecessors, it's been a, you know, strong growth.
I think there's a lot of reasons. One, you know,
we were in a pandemic when I took over and the
role that we played to advocate for Indigenous
businesses and supporting the Indigenous economy
through that period of time definitely showed
that there was a need for an organization like
ours and the value that we provided. And then,
you know, I think Canadians with, like, George
Floyd and then with the confirmation of the graves
at Kamloops, Canadians and corporations really
woke up to this social economic gap that existed
for businesses and individuals. And that definitely
spurred some growth as well. Though I would say,
you know, you see people that come on really
quickly without doing the education and the learning
are just as easily the ones who like back away
as fast. But some organizations, you know, who
really are digging in and wanting to understand
how they can do better and learning about our
history are making a real impact and impact in
areas where we hadn't seen before. So with every
new organization and sector, it brings new opportunity
to support Indigenous economy as well. Fantastic
stuff. Maybe step back a bit in your personal.
Before you became CEO, where are you from? How
did you end up in the role you're in today? So
I'm a member of Nipissing First Nation, which
is in Northern Ontario, about three and a half
hours north of Toronto. But my dad grew up at
Serpent River First Nation, which is about six
and a half hours north of Toronto. My parents
live in the community now, but we didn't grow
up there. We've had a place there since... 1990.
So I have spent a lot of time in Nipissing and
my parents moved in 2000 and my dad was on council
for some time. I'm an engineer by training and
I went into engineering with the purpose to work
and support Indigenous communities, you know,
my own community and others in spaces where we
don't have a lot of engineers or Indigenous people,
I should say. My father actually worked for Ontario
Hydro in Ontario and The history of Ontario Hydro
with First Nation communities is not a good one.
They flooded a number of communities as they
moved water around without communities knowing.
Communities had to relocate, like the water would
just rise in their community and they would have
to relocate. Yeah, they flooded graveyards in
communities. So a very, very difficult history.
And that's not unlike what happened in other
provinces. Manitoba, very similar. Sorry, but
without any warning. Without any conversation
or discussion or warning. And I, so he was a
mechanical maintainer, so worked like in the
plant growing up. And then through his career
and then Ontario Hydro started a group to really
work with those communities that they had treated
poorly on. reconciliation, like before reconciliation
was really ever a word. So about 1993. And he
spent a lot of time traveling around the province
of Ontario, meeting with communities and understanding
what the impact was and coming to settlement
agreements. And from those settlement agreements,
now we see projects being built and First Nation
communities partnered on projects with what is
now called Ontario Power Generation. So part
of their settlement would be we're going to build
a project here and you're going to be able to
build revenue from that. And it makes me very
proud to know that my dad was part of that. And
then when I went into engineering, just watching
what he did, I firstly was like, I'm not going
to go work there because that's where my dad
worked. I did end up there eventually. But, you
know, there really aren't a lot of Indigenous
engineers. And we have a lot of our young people
who go into social work and teaching because
that's what they see growing up. So wanting to
be that bridge, but in a more STEM type area.
So I was in electricity for 20 years almost.
And the last part of my career, I was able to
work with communities across Ontario on renewable
projects. As Ontario came off of coal and we
moved to renewable energy, there was a really
good policy decisions to ensure that. First Nation
and Métis communities in Ontario could participate
in those programs. So then I got to travel all
over Ontario, meet with communities, many who
had met with my dad, which was very full circle
for me. And then I kind of got to a point where
I felt like I did what I had set out to do and
I wanted to do something new and something more
national. So made the move to CCAB at the time.
We've gone through three name changes. I was
on the board of CCAB and I really believed in
what they did and the work that they did and
the impact they had. So made the move there as
the chief operating officer and then became CEO
in 2020. And it's been an incredible five years
for sure. Just to step back because I'm still
kind of in shock. And I shouldn't be in shock
anymore because I've read a lot. I've heard all
the stories. But for our listeners to understand,
on Harry Hydro. is a provincial government organization.
So this is the government basically treating,
ignoring the people who live there. Yeah. They
would not get away with that anywhere else of
this side, part of Toronto. Okay, we're just
going to use that and, you know, oh, by the way,
the water's coming. That's right. Right? And
they wouldn't now. I mean, at that time, Ontario
Hydro owned Generation N transmission. So also
transmission line that crossed. lines that cross
first nation land um there were like lease agreements
that were put in place but very minimal payments
for yes being able to do that across the land
um and probably not a lot of consultation in
advance of that oh no we're going to do this
and we will give you a little bit of exactly
money for the for the trouble yes exactly so
the like you know we have a lot of hydroelectric
in in ontario and diverting water In the springtime
and moving water, there was never a conversation
with communities about that. And some of those
communities that I have had the honor of visiting,
you know, there are still elders there who remember
that happening when their village was right next
to the water and the water would rise. So they
all moved up to a higher level or away from.
from the water, which was, you know, their source
of food. And you can still see in some communities
where the old village was. But this one particular
community was still working through a settlement
agreement. It's called Gull Bay First Nation
in Northern Ontario. They were still working
through an agreement with Ontario Hydro when
I came on the scene. And then they were the first
community to have a solar battery backup. They
were a diesel community. So it has almost displaced
most of the diesel that the community uses. And
it was owned in partnership with Ontario Hydro,
the province, and the community with the intention
that the community will own that full project
in the future. Yes. So that's why it comes back
to UNDRIP. Our audience knows about that now.
Yeah. United Nations Declaration of the Rights
of Indigenous People and why that is. so important,
was such a game changer as well to help address
these issues. And Canada has signed up to it,
and that's the law of the land now. Yeah, I think,
you know, not to get too into the details, but
within our constitution in Section 35, it states
that you have to consult with the community on
impact and that the community has to, I mean,
those impacts have to be evaluated and you have
to move through those. That wasn't... in place
at the time when this happened. And now anytime
a project is being built or transmission lines
are being built, those are subject to the duty
to consult and organizations need to go and meet
with those communities. But now we're seeing
it's, you know, table stakes and it's a game
changer. Like no corporation even thinks about
building anything without first working with
a community. And we actually see that those projects
move faster when you already have a partner.
So now we have the transmitter, largest transmitter
in Ontario. So we were doing energy planning
in my old career. Going out and meeting with
communities and saying there's going to be a
need for new transmission or new generation or
something in this territory. What would be the
best thing for the community? What would you
want to see? And also that allowed for communities
to start to prepare to be part of that solution.
So this was 10 years ago. And now there's a transmission
line being built. And five of the communities
in that territory came together. partnered with
a transmitter, and they submitted the bid to
build the transmission line. So all of that work
had already happened before the call for the
need came out. And that's where we see successful
projects that are much less risk, will be built
much faster because the community is already
engaged. They're part of it. And also the benefit
to the project. You're employing local people
who really care about the territory, who aren't
going anywhere. And if we look at like a mining
project, you know, when that mine leaves, the
people that have worked there care about the
land. So reclaiming the land to where, how it
was before, you have much more success in that
as well when you have communities involved as
project proponents and involved in the planning
process. And so, yeah, contrast those former
days to the situation now where you have stated
policies within companies like Hydro One responsible
for the transmission. who have said they will
not build any new transmission lines, any significant
transmission lines, unless the local Indigenous
communities own at least 50 % of those transmission
lines. And you're seeing communities come together
to do just that. Yeah, and even more so, Hydro
One is even looking at, you know, understanding
that equity, access to capital and equity is
difficult for so many communities. So they've
not just said, like, we want communities to have
an equity position, but they're also looking
at ways that they can help support them to be
able to access that capital, which is that second
step of corporation needs to go, right? It's
great to make a commitment to that, but unless
you're enabling that to happen, you're not going
to see progress. And it's really great to see
that Hydro One is trying to find solutions for
investment vehicles, as is, you know, many provinces
and the federal government as well. Yeah, in
BC, for example, their recent call for power
proposals, and it was a requirement that at least
25 % of any of the proposals for new power generation
would have Indigenous equity participation. Of
the nine proposals, I think that one, all but
one of them had a majority of Indigenous participation.
It's the way things are being done now. It is,
and it's like also then revenue that... goes
to the community that they can reinvest back
into other projects. And the capacity building
that comes along with that in a community also,
you know, from a business perspective, from being
at the table in those conversations and negotiations,
allows them to then be investors in other projects,
either for their community or for others. In
Ontario, we saw that too with renewable projects.
There was incentives to have First Nation as
a partner. They actually get paid. It's a power
purchase agreement. And they get paid a little
bit more for every kilowatt if you have a First
Nation project than the projects that don't.
So a real incentive driven by policy to ensure
that there's participation. Tabitha, you travel
all over and you speak. You were at our summit,
our second annual Canadian Indigenous Investment
Summit in London. What were your impressions
or takeaways from it? From the day with some
London investors. Yeah. You know, and I had the
honor of this being my second time attending.
So even just seeing the growth in the summit
and in the topics, I mean, it was so important
to have like real case studies of projects that
are really. building revenue and for investors
to understand the stability of these projects
and that they're, you know, progressing towards
a revenue generating project. Also, you know,
the delegation that was here, it's like incredible
to be amongst them, you know, at home in Canada.
Those are really like leaders that are pushing
forward on. Indigenous economies across the country.
Well, you're one of those leaders. Thank you.
Absolutely. That part of that A -team, we had
the Ontario Minister of Indigenous Affairs. And
like I said at the summit, it's unusual to see
a minister who generally they would come in and
leave after they've said their piece. Minister
Rickford stayed for the entire day. And we asked
him why. And he said, because I wanted to. hang
out with people like Tabitha. He said it was
an incredible lineup and he wanted to learn and
just be around people here. So we recently had
an election in Ontario and his title changed
a little bit. It's a very long title. But they
really understand that any projects in Ontario
have to have partnership with Indigenous communities
as well. In the time that we're in, when the
resources, many of the resources we have across
Canada, but critical minerals in Ontario, we're
very rich in those. And it's been a conversation
for many, many years, the Ring of Fire. And I
think that the province really is understanding
that we won't be moving forward on that unless
they get things right with the communities that
are going to be impacted. And it's really great
to see Minister Rickford. speaking those things
aloud and attending conferences across the country
and globally. When he heard about this summit,
his team reached out and definitely he wanted
to be here to learn from everybody. And I know
he's been traveling across the country, just
really trying to learn about examples about Indigenous
economies and making commitments from the province
of Ontario on that support as well, which is
really, you know, at the summit. Chief Ted Williams
from RAMA stood up and really made a point to
thank him for that time. I think that's a it's
a really it's a big step for Ontario with our
government in that commitment. Your organization
is across Canada. You've got members. Yes. North,
south, east and west. This year, tariffs have
been on the agenda and changed the. perception
of a lot of business in Canada. Indigenous business,
any different? Have you noticed a shift in approach?
You know, yeah, I think, so I have the pleasure,
honour of sitting on the Prime Minister's Canada
-US Council with respect to our relations with
the US, which came after the tariff announcement.
So first I would say representing Indigenous
businesses at that table with entrepreneurs and...
union representatives and large CEOs says something
about our country's commitment and the importance
of Indigenous business, but also a recognition
of how much Indigenous business has grown and
our participation in supply chains and in government
procurement and across the border. Recently completed
two large studies with Global Affairs Canada,
speaking to Indigenous businesses and trying
to understand interest in export and trade and
where they were currently trading. And it's actually,
of the Indigenous businesses that do export,
about 19 % of the revenues come from the U .S.
And some of those businesses, you know, up to
90 % of the revenues come from the U .S., if
we think about seafood and snow crab. You know,
on both of our coasts, there are a lot of indigenous
fisheries and indigenous owned businesses that
are participating in that sector. And during
COVID, definitely snow crab got hit really hard
just because Americans, the price of everything
in the recession was very difficult and people
just chose not to purchase. I mean, this is a
bit different with the tariffs and with the tariffs
from the Chinese on seafood that have come out
as well. that sector is going to really need
to find other customers to work with. And we
see that across the board as well. And a number
of our businesses and Indigenous people are very
active in the supply chains of oil and gas, mining,
forestry, agricultural, all areas that could
be very impacted depending how the tariff situation.
or continues. Here today, gone tomorrow. Exactly.
Here tomorrow, gone today. It is like so difficult
to keep up with what the ever -changing tweets
really. So we're really watching those sectors
and the impact on those sectors because it's
not, those sectors have worked very hard to increase
their supply chains from Indigenous businesses
and also the participation of Indigenous people
in. their organization. So it's not just going
to impact, you know, an entrepreneur, but also
a family. And a lot of, in Canada, in Indigenous
communities, a number of Indigenous communities
have what is called a Economic Development Corporation,
which is a corporation that's established to
kind of remove the business from the politics
of chief and council. And a number of those corporations
have various businesses underneath them, but
many of them are participating in oil and gas,
in mining, in lumber. So those corporations build
a revenue, but some of that revenue goes back
to invest back into the community, back into
programming and daycare, some clean water. So
if we see a downturn in those economies that
impact those development corporations, it's going
to have a ripple effect to communities as well.
So that's something we're definitely advocating
to ensure that supports. are provided to those
organizations or if there are reciprocal tariffs
that Canada recognizes the impact that may happen.
And then some of our members, you know, had really
strong business plans to enter into the U .S.
market. So we have a member, Birchbark Coffee,
who supplies coffee to Costco in Canada and was
in their business plan to move into the U .S.
market. So they've, you know, and they've made
investments to get into those markets. And now
they're having to think about what their alternative
is. So we're definitely working on, you know,
support for other markets. And that's why these
conversations, you know, even if the summit is
about investment, it's also about building and
strengthening those relationships between Canada
and the UK and ensuring that, you know, people
in the UK understand. the wealth and breadth
and skill and expertise of Indigenous business.
So, you know, and it could be little things.
So we're working with the government of Canada
on ensuring that there's Indigenous businesses
in like the buy list or the catalog for ambassadors
across the globe to have gifts from Indigenous
business and to be serving Indigenous coffee
in, you know, when they have people come to their
homes. And some of that is happening already,
but I think there's a lot more opportunity. And
then also just working on supporting Indigenous
businesses to be export ready and to look for
other alternatives. And then, of course, within
Canada, breaking down our own provincial barriers
of trade that some of our members say it's easier
to sell to the U .S. than it is to sell to another
province. Which is crazy. Right? It really is.
We're one country. Yeah. Outside of Canada, I
don't think people really appreciate how strong
the provinces are. They control natural resource
trade, securities for a long time. It's a very
decentralized form of government. You've got
a massive land mass. If you're going to convince
everybody to be part of one country, one way
to do that is to give a lot of power to each
of those parts of the country. And we've got
provincial... Freer trade in the European Union
than there is in Canada. A German and a French
person will tell you I'm different than them,
but they've been able to have a single market
for goods for a long time. And hopefully the
crisis that Canada is going through will be used
to remove some of these barriers. So it's great
that CCIB is fighting because you're not only
fighting for indigenous business by breaking
down those barriers, all businesses will benefit.
Yes. The whole Canadian economy will benefit.
And we'll all rise up together. Do you think
the political will is there to get that done?
I mean, there are some helpful statements being
made, but do you see evidence of real intent?
We definitely see movement and there was definitely
some real commitments. But I think it's going
to take the business community also. In the past,
I think there has been political will, but then
there's pushback from the business community
because it's also allowing competition into Europe.
And if you have that market controlled, allowing
new competitors to come in. So we've had definitely
discussions around the council table and at other
tables that it's not just about the premiers
of the provinces. It's also going to take the
business community to see the reciprocal benefit
that will come from it. And we're not just talking
goods, though. Some of it is... The size of the
tires on the truck or like some trucks have to
have snow tires and some don't. So it's even
like a shipping issue from regulations province
to province. And it's also a movement of workers
and people. I mean, that is across Canada for
us not to recognize someone trained in one province
as they in another's. Right. But this is a political
leadership issue because a business objective.
is to have a monopoly that's everybody goes out
and fights for market share every day and nobody
willingly gives it up yes and sometimes they
need here's the framework here's what we're going
to work on everybody's going to sacrifice and
do it the european union the single market wasn't
created because some businesses wanted but a
lot were were were against it and it took the
political leadership to say sorry this is this
is the future Services doesn't have a single
market in the European Union yet. And now with
the war in Ukraine and the issues with the Americans,
now they're starting to push on that very much
again. Some banks, yeah, we want to be across
the EU, but they're the resistance. And it has
to be the political leadership as it was Margaret
Thatcher. Good or bad. She created the single
market in Europe. That was the price for getting
the UK in. Sad they left, but that was the price
for getting in. It takes political leadership
and hopefully that's what we'll see in the future
in the country and organizations like the CCIB
who are neutral, right? Because you're representing
all the businesses across the country saying,
here's what our businesses need to compete because
if we don't get the scale in Canada. We won't
compete. We're a country of 40 million. That's
not too much smaller than some European countries
and larger than a lot. But if we're chopped up
into little markets, 4 million here, 12 million,
not a hope. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely demonstrated,
I mean, as we say often, you know, every crisis
is an opportunity. But I think it's also really
demonstrated how reliant we are. On the U .S.
and how businesses are choosing to trade with
the U .S. versus trade within their province.
And we need to really be looking at how we're
going to open up those markets. And also that
is when the free trade debates, which all of
us remember that was a big discussion. It wasn't,
you know, go back to Sir John A. Macdonald and
Laurier about what are we going to do in terms
of market access with the U .S. It's been an
existential question for Canada all the time.
There was a huge thing if we were giving up our
sovereignty and we'll be in trouble if we go
for a free trade agreement with the US, which
we first did and then Mexico joined later. So
this is a little bit of the consequences of that
because it is easier. If you're in a single market,
of course you're going to compete there. So hopefully
this reduces those barriers so companies can
compete. effectively and be more competitive
and then they can export abroad like to the uk
yeah yeah and i think it's also opening up lots
of opportunities for uh infrastructure build
in across canada as well and you know investing
back into projects across canada on infrastructure
and and for indigenous businesses and and communities
that's an incredible opportunity for them to
be part of the economy and part of the build
and and being able to have own source revenue
within communities. And even in supply chains,
we know lots of corporations are looking within
their supply chains at where they're purchasing
from now and in the Buy Canada campaign. We've
launched a Buy Indigenous to Buy Canada campaign
with a logo that can be downloaded and buttons
and stickers. And I will tell you, people are
like... calling to purchase the buttons and stickers.
The like views and downloads that we've had of
this logo for people to put onto their websites
is more than we've ever seen. Like definitely
our best campaign ever. You know, the more that
we can ensure that people understand that there
are Indigenous businesses in every sector. So
sometimes we might meet with a corporation. I
mean, procurement is one of our biggest priorities.
We see it as a huge opportunity to build the
Indigenous economy. And we might meet with a
corporation who's like, well, I don't buy anything
that an Indigenous business would make. And we
have to, you know, do you buy coffee? Do you
buy pens? Do you do graphic design? Even if you're
not a huge company that does a lot of buying,
everything that you are purchasing, there's an
Indigenous business that can do that. Us, ourselves,
as a not -for -profit, and we do a lot of travel,
so that's a lot of our expenses. Last year, our
spend with Indigenous business was over 25 %
of our spend. And that's from graphic design
to web design to the events that we put on to
if we're hosting an event, we ensure we're doing
it at a First Nation -owned hotel. So there's
a real opportunity here for us to have people
ensure that they're replacing a U .S. business
with a First Nation -owned or Métis -owned business.
Let's back up to some of the delegates you met
at the summit and the perspective coming from
the UK. So you're looking, and let's say you're
a corporate, you don't have a subsidiary in Canada
yet. Let's do two scenarios. You don't have a
subsidiary and you're an enterprise, right? Large
business. So who should I talk to first? Because,
you know, we've decided Canada is on the radar.
We're interested in different sector. Do we go
start talking to communities first? Is it worth
checking in with CCIB to give us some guidance
on what to do? Yeah, always come. We do have
many delegations that approach us if they're
coming to Canada to just understand working with
Indigenous business or communities. But there
are lots of other organizations and leaders that
were at the summit. First Nation Major Projects
Coalition works with a number of communities.
So they have an understanding of like what type
of sectors those communities want to potentially
participate in or if there's a project already
in existence that maybe there's an investment
opportunity for. Canada Infrastructure Bank as
well. They are investing in significant projects
in communities that are building infrastructure
but are also revenue generating. We're going
to have Hilary Thatcher, the Managing Director
there of Indigenous Investments, with us on an
upcoming podcast. Yeah, and they have really
made some incredible projects come to fruition
through both their investment in it, but then
also private investment and government investment.
So really looking at all the options on a project
and extremely good. due diligence on that project,
really evaluating if that project is, you know,
the risk around it and the revenue around it.
You know, if you're a corporation and wanting
to work with Indigenous business, you know, to
bring in culture into your organization, we're
definitely the place to go for that. But I think,
you know, the Indigenous economic economy, as
you probably saw at the summit, we all know each
other and work closely together. That's clear.
Yeah. It's friendly competition, but we're all
in this together. And we're all trying to create
a piece that works together, right? So we're
really supporting entrepreneurs and businesses,
community -owned businesses from training or
procurement or those corporate partnerships or
government advocacy. But there's other organizations
that do financing for businesses. There's other
organizations who do financing for projects in
community. But it's going to take all of us to
be, you know, doing the best that we can and
the work that we do to bring together. What is
great, and it's sort of relatively new. It's
not even 10 years old yet, I don't think. CCIB
has been around for 41 years. But some of the
other organizations you've talked about are much
younger. But the impact you're all having now.
is much different than, say, even 10 years ago,
I think. Either way, the ecosystem now of Indigenous
-led institutions, organizations, is really,
really incredible and inspiring to see the way
they're all working together. Different perspectives
and different areas of expertise in one common
goal. Yeah. So let's go to the other scenario.
I'm a corporate. There's some big companies in
the UK who have subsidiaries in Canada. Now,
say they were at the summit or they've heard
about Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit and
just Indigenous business and there's something
going on. Where would they go to kind of get,
how can they get an assessment of their subsidiary?
Because they're holding their directors and CEOs
responsible. We have all worked in head offices
with country markets and GMs who don't want to
share that with the head office. Where can they
go to get an assessment or perspective that they
can set metrics and benchmarks for their subsidiary?
Would that be yourselves? Yes. Yeah, definitely
for a corporation. So we have a program called
Partnership Accreditation and Indigenous Relations
that has been, I think we're on like year 23
of that program. We have about 250 organizations
across Canada who are either going through the
program or are certified in the program. And
it's kind of like a B Corp certification, except
it's how you're working with Indigenous businesses,
communities, your Indigenous employees. So there's
a lot of subsidiaries. There's a lot of global.
corporations that their Canada operations are
in that program today. All of the major banks,
a lot of mining firms, a lot of resource sector
firms. And a lot of them have actually said,
can you make this so it could apply globally
so our other partners in other countries could
also be doing, could have the same type of accreditation?
And we are looking at that. It's a bit down the
road for sure. But there's lots of... particularly
in countries that have indigenous populations.
There's lots of lessons that can be transferred
from those organizations. So if I'm a corporate
here in the UK listening to the podcast and my
end country management in Canada hasn't told
me about this, I think I'm going to go check
them out and ask them, do you have this certification
that you have? Yeah. And this is like, Definitely
something that is changing every day, and the
U .S. administration is having an impact on that
as well. But as corporations are looking at their
ESG scores or how they're operating in a market
or what do consumers feel about them, in Canada,
it's becoming more and more important to look
at how businesses are working with Indigenous
communities and people. Asking through proxies
and demanding through proxies that corporations
have what we would call a reconciliation action
plan or an indigenous inclusion strategy and
that they have a program around procurement from
indigenous businesses. So the Toronto Stock Exchange,
they had a shareholder proxy. Sun Life had a
shareholder proxy. A couple other companies.
And many of them didn't even have to get to the
board, the management. agreed. And that was the
case with Toronto Stock Exchange. And the result
of that is that they entered into our pair program.
The program requires that the board has a mandate
around how they're working with Indigenous people.
So it's also from a leadership perspective. I
sit on a couple boards and it's not just something
that comes up maybe in your governance committee
meeting, but it's really something that the board
has ownership over, which is so important because
it needs to be across your company, not just
within your, if you have an Indigenous relations
team, but there's also a requirement that you
have a working group that has representatives
from your business development team and your
comms team and your HR team. So everybody is
committed to looking with whatever work they're
doing at how they're working with Indigenous
people. You have three years to look at what
you can do and set targets. And then at the end
of those three years, we have Indigenous business
leaders who go into the organization. They meet
with the communities that you work with. They
meet with your Indigenous employees. They look
at your spend. And then they make a recommendation
at your certification level. And then you have
to renew your certification every three years.
So you can't just get the certification and then
stop doing the good work. And we have members
that have... continue to renew and maybe they
get bronze the first year and they work even
harder to hit silver or gold. And we even see
a little bit of competition in certain sectors,
like with the banks or law firms or energy firms,
if one's gold certified and one isn't. And it's
making an impact on Indigenous economy and businesses
because they're wanting to do better. And we've
had some conversations as well with the Stock
Exchange, looking at the performance of those
companies that are certified. Versus all other
company, SP500 companies, and it shows a 20 basis
points improvement of the companies that are
certified. So there's also, you know, there's
some corporations who are doing it because they
understand truth and reconciliation and they
want to be a better business. And there's some
that need to know what the return of investment
is because it's not an easy certification to
get. And I think as we continue to see change
in the U .S. backing away from DEI programs and
supplier diversity. We're really watching those
corporations that have operation in Canada and
are members of ours or not to see if they will
also back away. But the difference is Indigenous
people in Canada are constitutional rights holders.
This is not a program. This is a fundamental
right. Exactly. And we're being very clear. To
ensure that corporations in Canada remember that,
that Indigenous procurement is a, you know, it's
the obligation of every Canadian, every corporate
Canadian who has benefited from Indigenous people
being excluded from the economy. Yes. And they
all have a role to play in reconciling that.
And this is a way of doing that. And we're seeing
great... We're not seeing organizations back
away. It's not really taking a lot of convincing,
but it's definitely something that we're watching.
And it's important for shareholders, consumers,
for where people want to work as well. So for
a global firm here in the UK who has a subsidiary
in Canada, it's important for that corporation
in Canada to be working towards supporting Indigenous
people in various ways. Like the para -certification
program is definitely a place where people can
really understand what work they're doing. Great.
And they can find that on your website. Yeah.
Tabitha, thanks again for taking the time to
visit with us. We could have gone on and on and
maybe in a future episode we will. But for now,
Nyawan, thank you for joining us. Thank you for
having me. Miigwech. Thank you very much. It's
been great. Thank you. Thank you to Tabitha Bull
for sharing her insights with us. And thank you
for viewing and listening. Be sure to share,
subscribe, and leave a review on your favorite
podcast channel. Thanks for listening to Drumbeats.
Until next time.