Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNacca, and my co -host Robert Brandt
and I are joined today by Chief Derek Epp, Chief
of the Chiactin First Nation and Chairperson
of the First Nations Finance Authority. In January
2025, the FNFA reached a major milestone with
the issuance of a $650 million debenture. Over
the past 15 months, it has raised more than $1
.3 billion through a combination of debentures
and bonds, reflecting both its growing impact
and impressive growth. This discussion highlights
FNFA's approach to providing First Nations with
access to capital at comparable rates. Once focused
solely on infrastructure, the organization now
supports large -scale ownership of projects across
the resource and renewable energy sectors, proving
its commitment to economic growth and sustainability.
Chief Derek Epp, Chief of the Chiactin First
Nation in British Columbia. You've been with
us before. You've been at our Canadian Indigenous
Investment Summit now a couple of times. You're
back in London, and we're really happy you've
taken the time to talk to us once again. Welcome.
Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for having me. I'm really
glad to be back in London again. I seem to be
making a habit of this and I'm really enjoying
my time over here and another successful summit
this year. Yeah, of course. Great to have you
back. Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. Remind us where
your community is and a little bit about your
background. Yeah, so I've been the chief of CHIAC
and First Nation for almost a decade now. My
community is on the west coast of Canada, about
an hour and a half east of Vancouver, and heavily
involved in a lot of the work across the country,
really building out economies for First Nations.
There's a lot of the passion that I do in really
supporting the access to capital and now looking
at that international market and making sure
we can bridge that gap. In addition to chief,
you are also chair of the First Nations Financial
or Finance Authority. Yep. You're also involved
in what capacity on the board with the First
Nations? tax commission yeah so then i also chair
or co -chair the first nations resource tax committee
among some other committees uh very involved
in the tax commission uh as you mentioned the
chair of the first nations finance authority
and and really heavily involved in the lands
advisory board as well so the place i play politics
is in the institutions that really support land
and economic jurisdictions for first nations
And just, I guess, while it's fresh in our minds,
because it wasn't that long ago, the second annual
summit, some general impressions. Yeah, I thought
it was a really productive summit. And, you know,
over the years of getting to know the two of
you and really working on this, I think I'm actually
was. really, really impressed with this year's
summit and how well it went and really the connections
that we've made, even stemming from the summit.
We've had subsequent follow -up meetings with
investors and really looking at making sure that
from the First Nations Finance Authority lens
that we're building those capital market relationships,
but also was fortunate enough to build some relationships
for my nation as well. And so I think, again,
like this year's summit was something that, you
know, I didn't expect when we started this journey.
Well, three years ago, on a bit of a trade mission
with the British Consulate and turned into this
now the Canadian Investment Summit. That's where
you and I first met. That's right. Three years
ago. A very small group, but mostly BC -based
Indigenous leaders came over. You were part of
that. Yep. And that was really where I got the
idea that we need to do. do something bigger.
Yep. Um, but, um, that was three years ago, wasn't
it? It was, yeah. And it was a very different
experience than what we had this year for the
summit as well. Yeah. Well, the third annual
next year, uh, is going to be bigger and even
better. I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah.
Yeah. I think the opportunities are there. Remind
us the FNFA, um, that organization, what, what
that does. Yeah. First Nations Finance Authority.
Uh, really it began with the purpose of supporting
First Nations, uh, ability to close our infrastructure
gaps and that was a lot of our first adventure
2014 was 90 million dollars you know for us it
was a big step providing access to capital is
really what the mandate is for the first nations
finance authority at competitive rates you saw
it all too often first nations if they had to
access capital through conventional banks we
were paying excessive interest rates in the commercial
interest rates which was drowning a lot of the
first So we're now in the federal index from
the First Nations Finance Authority. And then
if you look at our last debenture, which was
in January 2025, we did $650 million this go
around. And we've done a little over $1 .3 billion
in 15 months in debentures as well and bonds.
So we've scaled. And now, as I said, it really
began focusing on infrastructure, but we've evolved
now to support large scale. ownership of. in
the resource sector, renewable energy, whatever
it may be, refinancing projects. We had one community,
Henvy Inlet from the East Coast. They were paying
in excess of $25 ,000 a day in interest in one
of their projects. We were able to refinance
that and actually combine interest principle,
all the payments, they've actually now are paying
that $25 ,000 a day in paying off principle.
So it's, you know, that has made substantial
substantial impacts on the ability for First
Nations to really keep those revenue streams
in their community. And what you see with that
is they begin to then leverage those revenue
streams from the economic ventures to access
more capital through the finance authority to
provide that infrastructure that's needed in
our communities, but also being able to meet
the holistic needs for the membership as well.
So it's having that And you're seeing these social
impacts in the communities from the First Nations
Finance Authority. And, you know, it's one of
the few national organizations that I really
am extremely proud to do the work that we're
doing there. And your background is social work.
Yeah, yeah. I think you said your family's background
too. Yeah, I come from a long line of social
workers. And here you are in the heart of the
financial district in one of the great financial
cities of the world promoting economic development.
Where's the, how does that happen? Funny, you
know, I... My community is a very progressive
economic development community. So I've been
very fortunate to surround myself with a lot
of capable individuals. And I've just been a
sponge in learning as much as I can. And then
in my first term as chief, I went back to UBC,
did a bit of an undergrad in business with the
purpose of laddering into an MBA. But, you know,
time, family commitments, all that. Haven't done
it yet, but I can say I've gained some invaluable
experience. just working in this world now, understanding
bonds, understanding financing, understanding
what it takes to access capital and then the
importance of it. And then really even taking
that from that national scale, but also doing
it on my own individual community scale as well
and our tribe. So really it's given me a lot
of sound experience and knowledge in this area.
But again, I make sure I surround myself with
the right people to make sure that we're making
really sound decisions as well. And I learn from
them. So with the FNFA, with your debentures,
who's participating? Because you just don't have
Canadian firms. No, no, we're obviously going
to the syndicates and we have, you know, the
Asian markets, Swiss markets, Swiss National
Bank. We have some South American interests as
well, but really where we're trying to diversify
now is the UK market. and really making sure
that we are accessing. Our last venture, I think,
was around 3 % international, but we really want
to grow that. I think that's important that we
do grow that percentage pool moving forward and
diversify. Most of the time, we're getting picked
up by provincial pension funds or whatever it
may be in Canada, domesticated. But really, it's
important that we begin to... you know, go to
the international markets. And what's the pitch
to international investors who are being pitched
by issuers of debt from around the world? What's
unique and what's attractive, should be attractive?
Yeah, I think it's that ESG, it's that social
impact. It's really, it's safe. We have such
a, so many safeguards within the FNFA's approach.
We started this really building out our safeguards
in 2008. When the market was crashing, we had
a lot of uncertainty in the market. So we like
to call our approach like Fort Knox. It really
protects not only the nations, but it also protects
the investors. It's a pooled approach. So we
have well over 100 First Nations communities
as borrowing members now. And over half are scheduled
to be borrowing members of the 600 and some odd
communities across Canada. We have, I think,
360. 75, who have the ability to borrow with
us now. So that creates the safeguards for the
investors. But almost just as important, it's
what's being done with the capital, you know,
and really the impacts in the communities is
what we like to show to the investors. We have
a saying, every loan tells a story from the First
Nations Finance Authority, and they do. We've
done videos that we're happy to share with investors
of what are the impacts being done. You know,
my community alone, we've done a lot of housing
projects over the last number of years and investment
in the culture because of the economic investments
we've been able to do. You know, we have one,
I like to tell the story of an elder who we moved
her home. She never, didn't live in our community
for about 50 years. And simple things like, she
just says, it's cozy, it's safe. I'm close to
my family. I'm close to our cultural centers.
And when I'm sick, my family can bring me. soup,
those little things that are making a massive
impact. And you see it in a lot of the stats
that are happening in my community. We have no
kids in the care of the ministry. You know, I
don't know a lot of communities, Indigenous and
non -Indigenous alike can say that. We focus
in on prevention. Our social health index is
skyrocketing because of these investments. very
low unemployment rates. We have a lot of these
stats that we're really proud of that I think
we outpace just the general society. And that's
the impacts that the FNFA and these institutions
are having in our communities and from these
large projects. And that's what's happening.
It sounds like the way you talk about the economic
development, the impacts, it sounds like an extension
of your social work background. There's a real
tie in. And that's the passion for me, right?
It's balancing the economies with the community's
needs and making sure that, and we're very transparent
with our membership. And I think that happens
across the country is, you know, making sure
they know that you can't have one without the
other. You really do need to build an economy
in order to be self -sufficient and build out
programming that's different. We know like Western
programming doesn't necessarily work for our
people. So, you know, having a program relationship
with the government isn't going to fix that.
Having an economy though will. And that's a lot
of my passion and what I enjoy doing now. You
mentioned the land, which is the land subcommittee,
is that of the FNFA? Lands Advisory Board is
one of the institutions that are nationally,
they're not part of the First Nations Fiscal
Management Act, but they are one of the institutions
that are attached to this organization we call
Leading the Way. Land is such a critical element
of Indigenous life and there's such a strong
connection. What's happening in 2025 in the area
of land management or land acquisition? Buying
land back. I think it was you two that brought
me to the term, the Yellowstone term, right?
And that's kind of the show I haven't watched
yet, but I've been told numerous times that what
we're doing is akin to what Yellowstone is about.
We've gone out and used the capital now, used
our resources that we have through economic development
to go and buy our land back. One of the only
ways to actually try to get land back is through
negotiations or settling a treaty with the federal
government and provincial governments. But that's
proven to be extremely difficult, lengthy. My
community has spent almost 30 years in a treaty
process and we didn't get a single piece of land
back. And at the end of the day, it didn't work
for us. It's not saying treaties don't work for
every community, but it just didn't work for
us. We took the economic approach and now we've
been able to acquire land back, expedite something
called the additions to reserve process because
of our capacity and our jurisdictions and our
ability to actually move at the speed of business.
And now we have a goal of doubling our land base
in 2025, acquiring land through raising capital.
You know, at this year's summit, we had a group,
Hungerford group, sharing about seven generations
capital. We have Cedar Leaf, or we have these
other organizations as well that are accessing
the capital markets. And we're really tapping
into those revenue streams to go and do major
land acquisitions and then develop joint ventures
to have equity participation in all aspects of
land development. When you talk about land acquisitions,
you're talking about going into private. The
private market, buying land from private owners
at market rates, and then taking that territory
and adding it to your reserve base. Yeah, and
it takes time, it takes money, it takes resources.
But at the end of the day, when we add it to
our reserve base, we function as any other government
and we do rely on property taxation like any
other government has to. And that's where we
see that we use a shared... this year at the
summit, the term Tomiuk, it's that seven generational
thinking. And so we, we take that lens to it,
knowing that, you know, real estate is, it can
be risky, but it can be successful. proven is
over time is proven to be a very successful investment.
Um, but we know over, over time, that tax revenue
is something that my community can really depend
on. Where is your community located again, just
for all our audience? About an hour and a half
East of Vancouver on the West coast. Right. Yeah.
So if you bring land back in, you're not bringing
it back into nature just to leave. So nobody
develops it. You're actually, if I recall correctly,
developing it. Yeah. I mean, there, there is
aspects of, of both there is, you know, but yeah,
but the, purpose of doing these land acquisitions
is so our community has the ability to continue
to do the development over the next, you know,
30, 40 years. And if we can acquire the land
we want to, I know that our future councils,
our economic development corporation has the
ability to, over time, continue to invest and
develop out. Part of it is like, we know like
some of the land we've bought, it has watercourses
through it. And that sustainable piece that we're
trying to do as well is reinvigorate and restore
some of the watercourses at the same time. So
it goes hand in hand. I was very lucky to be
able to go out to your territory about a year
ago. And I loved seeing the 3D map. or model
you had that was a size bigger than this table.
Most of it was, I forget which color, but the
traditional territories. And then the actual
reserve in the middle was a postage stamp size.
And so what you're talking about, and that includes
the valleys, but then gorgeous British Columbia
mountains and lakes. You're talking about buying
more of that traditional territory back. Exactly.
And that's a lot. So then you look at the national
scale. That's a lot of what's happening. And
you have, especially if you look in Winnipeg
or Ontario or some of the more rural and remote
communities, in order for them to build - Sorry,
I'm from Brandon. Winnipeg is not rural. Everything
between Brandon and Winnipeg is, but Winnipeg.
What they're doing now, though, is buying these
urban reserves, is actually buying fee -simple
land and navigating these processes and developing
urban reserves so they can actually build an
economy. And then they can go back to their,
you know, more rural, depending on where they
are, their reserves and be able to invest and
bring in that critical infrastructure. Because
you see when nations actually get that municipal
-like infrastructure, that's when their economies
begin to grow. takes time, that takes money,
that takes resources. In order to do that, First
Nations are now, as you said, buying land in
their territory, fee simple, private land, and
taking that jurisdictional approach and really
beginning to be large players in all of Canada's
economy. So what's the next steps for the FNA?
Where are you in terms of evolving that? Because
that organization just seems to get stronger
and stronger. Yeah, so there's a lot of exciting
stuff going on in the FNFA. And really, we're
taking the next step to be able to change some
of our policy to land a special purpose vehicles.
And that will really support a lot of the dialogue
that we had at this year's summit in the resource
or renewable energy projects. What happens when
these projects are being considered is you have
to go through a process of identifying impacted
First Nations. communities across Canada. And
they could have the opportunity of participating
in equity ownership stakes of these projects.
Involved in one right now that has the potential
of up to 46 communities that can be involved
in one resource project. Are they all touch biters
in investment opportunity? Investment opportunity.
It's within their territory. So they're identified
as having impacts on the project. So they have
the ability to, it triggers a consultation. but
also what proponents, and this is the important
part now, are getting ahead of that and coming
to First Nations before projects are being considered
to talk about equity ownership. It de -risks
the project, but it also is important to economic
reconciliation to really have Indigenous communities
involved in these projects. Now, what happens,
though, is we create special purpose vehicles
through limited partnerships, general partnerships,
and we create a transaction committee subset
of those 46 potential communities to actually
stick handle the negotiations so that we don't
have 46 individual communities having to be.
negotiating one project. It really helps speed
up the process and ensures that there's a de
-risking element to the investment as well. So
that's the next step for the FNFA so that we
can lend to those special purpose vehicles. Right
now, we can't. So it's a gap in the market. And
you see when you're talking about the competitive
interest rates that the FNFA can offer, that
really enhances all the revenue streams back
to the nations. And that's... That's the critical
part about what we're trying to do is, you know,
every dollar makes a difference when you're talking
about bringing revenues back to First Nations.
And that's the next step for the FNFA. Just coming
back to the summit, Clearwater. Yes. Seafoods,
which the FNFA was involved with. Yep. And that
was a group of seven. Yes. That came together.
You didn't need an SPV for that because I think
they resolved it. Yeah, they did. It was individual
loans to the individual communities, and they
had varying percentages of equity depending on
their risk tolerance and their ability to actually
pledge revenue streams to be a part of that project.
Right. And then just a shareholder's agreement,
I guess, because it was a 50 % shareholder. So
you're talking something obviously completely
different in terms of scale. Yeah. We're talking
about multi -billion dollar projects, right?
If you're a proponent of a project and you want
to do it, equity with Indigenous peoples. You
do not want 30, 40, sometimes more shareholders
that you have to deal with. So set up a separate
entity where the governance can be looked after
separately and you're just dealing with the one.
One face. Exactly. And that's critical to the
success of these deals. Even if you look at Trans
Mountain, likely that's going to be divested
eventually onto First Nations as well. Potential
of 130 communities could be involved. But again,
it's that subcommittee that will be established
to stick handle the negotiations. So where is
Trans Mountain? Trans Mountain runs from Alberta.
Oh, sorry. In terms of the timeline. Yeah. of
you know what's happening but please explain
geographically where it is for because we all
said and we know where it is i mean trans mountain
was about in 2024 it was announced that they
were going to try to offload uh trans mountain
to first nations it stalled out because of the
election in 2025 but everything's indicating
to this next government uh the current government
will be looking to offload the asset to the first
nations um in this in this term so this was the
crude oil pipeline running from alberta to take
the oil to the coast of british columbia and
uh federal government took over the project total
cost something like 30 billion dollars 34 35
billion 35 billion dollars but it is complete
uh it's operational and uh And it's, I don't
know what the 800 ,000 barrels a day of additional
capacity for. It's flowing through now. Yeah.
Right. So sunk cost. Yeah. And ultimately we
know like, you know, the, when the federal government
took over that, it de -risked the actual build
out of it as well. And we know the $35 billion
that it costs to build it. That's not going to
be the price that that's going to be paid for
that either. Right. There's going to be a bit
of a reduction because of the escalated prices
that it took to build that out. But it's still,
it's going to be a, you know, I would, I would
guess it's going to be north of $20 billion.
What I love about part of the story anyway, was
you were, you're, you're. community is directly
affected the pipeline runs right through you
were part of groups objecting to the build and
taking going to court and slowing things down
now you're part of a group that may want to buy
it yeah how how does that work an investor over
here seeing media coverage of yeah the court
cases and now saying but those people are now
buying and he's chair of the fnfa yeah yeah yeah
yeah i mean Really what it came down to was we
wanted to have our environmental standards met.
And at the time, none of them were being, we
had 89 recommendations that we put out from my
tribe to say like to protect the environment,
protect the fish. One was adopted, one of 89.
So that was where the issues were. So now strategically
understanding that, you know, the project's done,
oil's flowing. So now what we've taken the approach,
and this is what a lot of the shift over the
years has been now, is, okay, well, let's get
involved in these projects, owning the asset,
so we can make sure that the environmental mitigation
measures that we want to be involved in, well,
let's be an owner. Then we can actually have,
instead of sitting on the sidelines and complaining,
you know, and really, you know, not showing support,
well, let's own it. And let's be able to put
in some of the measures that we've talked about
and be that responsible owner of an asset like
that. So that's where the mindset has really
shifted over the years. And that's why I think
you're going to see the investment in the next
couple of years in a lot of resource and renewable
energy projects. Because, you know, First Nations
have shifted their mindset to let's own, let's
control, let's protect the environment a bit
more rigorously. And that's, in my mind, I've
always... really thought that way, but it's really
starting to get traction across Canada now. Yes.
And I think the other thing, we had Indigenous
people from across the country, which was great,
right? North, south, east, east, west. But you
hear a lot about British Columbia and what's
going on there. And I guess, is that partly because
so much isn't covered by treaty or are these
the nations who are, you know, new opportunities
in front of them are taking a different look
at how to... how to proceed and succeed i think
it's both right i think it's it's there's so
many others there's a lot of uh bc alone the
the critical minerals and resources available
in bc alone are um substantial and you there's
going to be a lot more linear projects needed
to really get some of these resources to the
international markets you look at the heisley
deal cedar lng um huge success and that's something
that i think we're going to see repeated uh more
often now and um you know first nations now are
We know how to navigate these projects. It was
newer to a lot of the communities in the southern
BC area. But a lot of these new projects, you
know, the Trans Mountain, the liquid natural
gas projects has created comfort for more of
the southern communities now. And we're really,
you know, looking forward to what's possible
in the next coming years on resource projects.
And we're ready. We're ready to take charge in
some of these. That just reinforces. in terms
of Canada being an energy superpower and the
potential that still remains, right? A lot of
the hydro is done and covered, but there's all
kinds of other opportunities in natural resources
and infrastructure to take everything to the
next level as Canada goes ahead and repositions
its trading relationships. Absolutely. Indigenous
people will be at the heart of the trading relationships
once again with foreign nations, which is great.
It's exciting times. Chief, thanks again. Great
to see you. And thanks for taking the time out
to chat with us. Thanks for having me. Looking
forward to it. Thank you, Chief. Thank you to
Chief Derrick Gap for sharing his insights with
us. And thank you for viewing and listening.
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