WEBVTT 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:03.049 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.049 --> 00:00:05.710 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:08.689 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.689 --> 00:00:11.070 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:12.669 --> 00:00:15.310 I'm Mark McNacca, and my co -host Robert Brandt 00:00:15.310 --> 00:00:17.929 and I are joined today by Chief Derek Epp, Chief 00:00:17.929 --> 00:00:20.510 of the Chiactin First Nation and Chairperson 00:00:20.510 --> 00:00:23.530 of the First Nations Finance Authority. In January 00:00:23.530 --> 00:00:27.190 2025, the FNFA reached a major milestone with 00:00:27.190 --> 00:00:30.609 the issuance of a $650 million debenture. Over 00:00:30.609 --> 00:00:32.850 the past 15 months, it has raised more than $1 00:00:32.850 --> 00:00:35.929 .3 billion through a combination of debentures 00:00:35.929 --> 00:00:38.409 and bonds, reflecting both its growing impact 00:00:38.409 --> 00:00:41.570 and impressive growth. This discussion highlights 00:00:41.570 --> 00:00:44.109 FNFA's approach to providing First Nations with 00:00:44.109 --> 00:00:47.350 access to capital at comparable rates. Once focused 00:00:47.350 --> 00:00:50.149 solely on infrastructure, the organization now 00:00:50.149 --> 00:00:52.710 supports large -scale ownership of projects across 00:00:52.710 --> 00:00:55.770 the resource and renewable energy sectors, proving 00:00:55.770 --> 00:00:58.530 its commitment to economic growth and sustainability. 00:01:00.070 --> 00:01:04.230 Chief Derek Epp, Chief of the Chiactin First 00:01:04.230 --> 00:01:06.310 Nation in British Columbia. You've been with 00:01:06.310 --> 00:01:09.370 us before. You've been at our Canadian Indigenous 00:01:09.370 --> 00:01:12.969 Investment Summit now a couple of times. You're 00:01:12.969 --> 00:01:14.969 back in London, and we're really happy you've 00:01:14.969 --> 00:01:17.680 taken the time to talk to us once again. Welcome. 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:19.540 Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for having me. I'm really 00:01:19.540 --> 00:01:21.859 glad to be back in London again. I seem to be 00:01:21.859 --> 00:01:24.400 making a habit of this and I'm really enjoying 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:28.420 my time over here and another successful summit 00:01:28.420 --> 00:01:32.379 this year. Yeah, of course. Great to have you 00:01:32.379 --> 00:01:34.819 back. Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. Remind us where 00:01:34.819 --> 00:01:37.400 your community is and a little bit about your 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:39.939 background. Yeah, so I've been the chief of CHIAC 00:01:39.939 --> 00:01:42.280 and First Nation for almost a decade now. My 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:44.359 community is on the west coast of Canada, about 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:49.319 an hour and a half east of Vancouver, and heavily 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:51.400 involved in a lot of the work across the country, 00:01:51.540 --> 00:01:54.920 really building out economies for First Nations. 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.480 There's a lot of the passion that I do in really 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.319 supporting the access to capital and now looking 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:02.099 at that international market and making sure 00:02:02.099 --> 00:02:04.329 we can bridge that gap. In addition to chief, 00:02:04.569 --> 00:02:09.009 you are also chair of the First Nations Financial 00:02:09.009 --> 00:02:13.330 or Finance Authority. Yep. You're also involved 00:02:13.330 --> 00:02:15.870 in what capacity on the board with the First 00:02:15.870 --> 00:02:18.900 Nations? tax commission yeah so then i also chair 00:02:18.900 --> 00:02:22.000 or co -chair the first nations resource tax committee 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.240 among some other committees uh very involved 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:26.919 in the tax commission uh as you mentioned the 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:28.360 chair of the first nations finance authority 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.599 and and really heavily involved in the lands 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:33.919 advisory board as well so the place i play politics 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:38.159 is in the institutions that really support land 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:40.060 and economic jurisdictions for first nations 00:02:40.590 --> 00:02:42.969 And just, I guess, while it's fresh in our minds, 00:02:43.009 --> 00:02:45.370 because it wasn't that long ago, the second annual 00:02:45.370 --> 00:02:49.889 summit, some general impressions. Yeah, I thought 00:02:49.889 --> 00:02:52.689 it was a really productive summit. And, you know, 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:54.550 over the years of getting to know the two of 00:02:54.550 --> 00:02:57.250 you and really working on this, I think I'm actually 00:02:57.250 --> 00:03:00.680 was. really, really impressed with this year's 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:03.080 summit and how well it went and really the connections 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:06.819 that we've made, even stemming from the summit. 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.080 We've had subsequent follow -up meetings with 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:12.379 investors and really looking at making sure that 00:03:12.379 --> 00:03:14.699 from the First Nations Finance Authority lens 00:03:14.699 --> 00:03:17.719 that we're building those capital market relationships, 00:03:17.900 --> 00:03:22.419 but also was fortunate enough to build some relationships 00:03:22.419 --> 00:03:25.939 for my nation as well. And so I think, again, 00:03:26.300 --> 00:03:29.639 like this year's summit was something that, you 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:31.400 know, I didn't expect when we started this journey. 00:03:31.580 --> 00:03:34.340 Well, three years ago, on a bit of a trade mission 00:03:34.340 --> 00:03:37.460 with the British Consulate and turned into this 00:03:37.460 --> 00:03:39.879 now the Canadian Investment Summit. That's where 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:41.539 you and I first met. That's right. Three years 00:03:41.539 --> 00:03:46.319 ago. A very small group, but mostly BC -based 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:49.379 Indigenous leaders came over. You were part of 00:03:49.379 --> 00:03:52.280 that. Yep. And that was really where I got the 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.360 idea that we need to do. do something bigger. 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:58.300 Yep. Um, but, um, that was three years ago, wasn't 00:03:58.300 --> 00:03:59.939 it? It was, yeah. And it was a very different 00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:01.780 experience than what we had this year for the 00:04:01.780 --> 00:04:03.740 summit as well. Yeah. Well, the third annual 00:04:03.740 --> 00:04:07.000 next year, uh, is going to be bigger and even 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:08.840 better. I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah. 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:11.659 Yeah. I think the opportunities are there. Remind 00:04:11.659 --> 00:04:15.879 us the FNFA, um, that organization, what, what 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:17.639 that does. Yeah. First Nations Finance Authority. 00:04:17.819 --> 00:04:20.660 Uh, really it began with the purpose of supporting 00:04:20.660 --> 00:04:23.730 First Nations, uh, ability to close our infrastructure 00:04:23.730 --> 00:04:26.370 gaps and that was a lot of our first adventure 00:04:26.370 --> 00:04:30.990 2014 was 90 million dollars you know for us it 00:04:30.990 --> 00:04:34.050 was a big step providing access to capital is 00:04:34.050 --> 00:04:36.050 really what the mandate is for the first nations 00:04:36.050 --> 00:04:39.509 finance authority at competitive rates you saw 00:04:39.509 --> 00:04:41.949 it all too often first nations if they had to 00:04:41.949 --> 00:04:45.310 access capital through conventional banks we 00:04:45.310 --> 00:04:48.250 were paying excessive interest rates in the commercial 00:04:48.250 --> 00:04:51.350 interest rates which was drowning a lot of the 00:04:51.350 --> 00:04:55.189 first So we're now in the federal index from 00:04:55.189 --> 00:04:56.790 the First Nations Finance Authority. And then 00:04:56.790 --> 00:05:00.629 if you look at our last debenture, which was 00:05:00.629 --> 00:05:05.410 in January 2025, we did $650 million this go 00:05:05.410 --> 00:05:08.610 around. And we've done a little over $1 .3 billion 00:05:08.610 --> 00:05:11.569 in 15 months in debentures as well and bonds. 00:05:11.730 --> 00:05:15.410 So we've scaled. And now, as I said, it really 00:05:15.410 --> 00:05:18.769 began focusing on infrastructure, but we've evolved 00:05:18.769 --> 00:05:23.699 now to support large scale. ownership of. in 00:05:23.699 --> 00:05:26.959 the resource sector, renewable energy, whatever 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.319 it may be, refinancing projects. We had one community, 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:34.480 Henvy Inlet from the East Coast. They were paying 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:38.199 in excess of $25 ,000 a day in interest in one 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:40.720 of their projects. We were able to refinance 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.560 that and actually combine interest principle, 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:46.459 all the payments, they've actually now are paying 00:05:46.459 --> 00:05:49.720 that $25 ,000 a day in paying off principle. 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.500 So it's, you know, that has made substantial 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:55.259 substantial impacts on the ability for First 00:05:55.259 --> 00:05:57.279 Nations to really keep those revenue streams 00:05:57.279 --> 00:05:59.759 in their community. And what you see with that 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:02.579 is they begin to then leverage those revenue 00:06:02.579 --> 00:06:05.699 streams from the economic ventures to access 00:06:05.699 --> 00:06:07.800 more capital through the finance authority to 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.560 provide that infrastructure that's needed in 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.819 our communities, but also being able to meet 00:06:13.819 --> 00:06:17.019 the holistic needs for the membership as well. 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:21.240 So it's having that And you're seeing these social 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.360 impacts in the communities from the First Nations 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:27.180 Finance Authority. And, you know, it's one of 00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:31.279 the few national organizations that I really 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:33.620 am extremely proud to do the work that we're 00:06:33.620 --> 00:06:36.480 doing there. And your background is social work. 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:39.540 Yeah, yeah. I think you said your family's background 00:06:39.540 --> 00:06:42.439 too. Yeah, I come from a long line of social 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:45.220 workers. And here you are in the heart of the 00:06:45.220 --> 00:06:48.360 financial district in one of the great financial 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:51.899 cities of the world promoting economic development. 00:06:52.180 --> 00:06:56.459 Where's the, how does that happen? Funny, you 00:06:56.459 --> 00:06:58.459 know, I... My community is a very progressive 00:06:58.459 --> 00:07:00.720 economic development community. So I've been 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.060 very fortunate to surround myself with a lot 00:07:04.060 --> 00:07:06.480 of capable individuals. And I've just been a 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.600 sponge in learning as much as I can. And then 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.100 in my first term as chief, I went back to UBC, 00:07:12.259 --> 00:07:14.819 did a bit of an undergrad in business with the 00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:18.139 purpose of laddering into an MBA. But, you know, 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.579 time, family commitments, all that. Haven't done 00:07:21.579 --> 00:07:25.259 it yet, but I can say I've gained some invaluable 00:07:25.259 --> 00:07:29.230 experience. just working in this world now, understanding 00:07:29.230 --> 00:07:31.689 bonds, understanding financing, understanding 00:07:31.689 --> 00:07:35.009 what it takes to access capital and then the 00:07:35.009 --> 00:07:37.290 importance of it. And then really even taking 00:07:37.290 --> 00:07:39.689 that from that national scale, but also doing 00:07:39.689 --> 00:07:41.589 it on my own individual community scale as well 00:07:41.589 --> 00:07:45.790 and our tribe. So really it's given me a lot 00:07:45.790 --> 00:07:48.750 of sound experience and knowledge in this area. 00:07:48.829 --> 00:07:51.490 But again, I make sure I surround myself with 00:07:51.490 --> 00:07:53.810 the right people to make sure that we're making 00:07:53.810 --> 00:07:55.850 really sound decisions as well. And I learn from 00:07:55.850 --> 00:07:58.779 them. So with the FNFA, with your debentures, 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:01.420 who's participating? Because you just don't have 00:08:01.420 --> 00:08:03.680 Canadian firms. No, no, we're obviously going 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:05.500 to the syndicates and we have, you know, the 00:08:05.500 --> 00:08:07.600 Asian markets, Swiss markets, Swiss National 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.759 Bank. We have some South American interests as 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:13.060 well, but really where we're trying to diversify 00:08:13.060 --> 00:08:16.029 now is the UK market. and really making sure 00:08:16.029 --> 00:08:19.470 that we are accessing. Our last venture, I think, 00:08:19.470 --> 00:08:24.709 was around 3 % international, but we really want 00:08:24.709 --> 00:08:26.470 to grow that. I think that's important that we 00:08:26.470 --> 00:08:29.949 do grow that percentage pool moving forward and 00:08:29.949 --> 00:08:32.269 diversify. Most of the time, we're getting picked 00:08:32.269 --> 00:08:35.649 up by provincial pension funds or whatever it 00:08:35.649 --> 00:08:38.690 may be in Canada, domesticated. But really, it's 00:08:38.690 --> 00:08:41.570 important that we begin to... you know, go to 00:08:41.570 --> 00:08:43.350 the international markets. And what's the pitch 00:08:43.350 --> 00:08:46.230 to international investors who are being pitched 00:08:46.230 --> 00:08:51.750 by issuers of debt from around the world? What's 00:08:51.750 --> 00:08:54.610 unique and what's attractive, should be attractive? 00:08:54.649 --> 00:08:56.990 Yeah, I think it's that ESG, it's that social 00:08:56.990 --> 00:09:00.490 impact. It's really, it's safe. We have such 00:09:00.490 --> 00:09:04.769 a, so many safeguards within the FNFA's approach. 00:09:04.909 --> 00:09:08.490 We started this really building out our safeguards 00:09:08.490 --> 00:09:12.220 in 2008. When the market was crashing, we had 00:09:12.220 --> 00:09:15.399 a lot of uncertainty in the market. So we like 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.720 to call our approach like Fort Knox. It really 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:22.399 protects not only the nations, but it also protects 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:25.659 the investors. It's a pooled approach. So we 00:09:25.659 --> 00:09:28.379 have well over 100 First Nations communities 00:09:28.379 --> 00:09:32.879 as borrowing members now. And over half are scheduled 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:36.580 to be borrowing members of the 600 and some odd 00:09:36.580 --> 00:09:38.379 communities across Canada. We have, I think, 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:41.679 360. 75, who have the ability to borrow with 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:44.159 us now. So that creates the safeguards for the 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:47.340 investors. But almost just as important, it's 00:09:47.340 --> 00:09:49.620 what's being done with the capital, you know, 00:09:49.620 --> 00:09:52.279 and really the impacts in the communities is 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:56.179 what we like to show to the investors. We have 00:09:56.179 --> 00:09:58.620 a saying, every loan tells a story from the First 00:09:58.620 --> 00:10:01.200 Nations Finance Authority, and they do. We've 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:04.159 done videos that we're happy to share with investors 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:07.470 of what are the impacts being done. You know, 00:10:07.490 --> 00:10:09.870 my community alone, we've done a lot of housing 00:10:09.870 --> 00:10:12.529 projects over the last number of years and investment 00:10:12.529 --> 00:10:16.090 in the culture because of the economic investments 00:10:16.090 --> 00:10:19.070 we've been able to do. You know, we have one, 00:10:19.190 --> 00:10:22.090 I like to tell the story of an elder who we moved 00:10:22.090 --> 00:10:24.549 her home. She never, didn't live in our community 00:10:24.549 --> 00:10:28.570 for about 50 years. And simple things like, she 00:10:28.570 --> 00:10:30.850 just says, it's cozy, it's safe. I'm close to 00:10:30.850 --> 00:10:34.070 my family. I'm close to our cultural centers. 00:10:34.129 --> 00:10:36.889 And when I'm sick, my family can bring me. soup, 00:10:36.909 --> 00:10:39.730 those little things that are making a massive 00:10:39.730 --> 00:10:43.370 impact. And you see it in a lot of the stats 00:10:43.370 --> 00:10:45.429 that are happening in my community. We have no 00:10:45.429 --> 00:10:46.950 kids in the care of the ministry. You know, I 00:10:46.950 --> 00:10:50.450 don't know a lot of communities, Indigenous and 00:10:50.450 --> 00:10:54.309 non -Indigenous alike can say that. We focus 00:10:54.309 --> 00:10:57.049 in on prevention. Our social health index is 00:10:57.049 --> 00:11:01.320 skyrocketing because of these investments. very 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:05.960 low unemployment rates. We have a lot of these 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:07.440 stats that we're really proud of that I think 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:10.860 we outpace just the general society. And that's 00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:13.480 the impacts that the FNFA and these institutions 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.480 are having in our communities and from these 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.539 large projects. And that's what's happening. 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:21.840 It sounds like the way you talk about the economic 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:24.840 development, the impacts, it sounds like an extension 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:28.500 of your social work background. There's a real 00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:30.460 tie in. And that's the passion for me, right? 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:33.679 It's balancing the economies with the community's 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:36.659 needs and making sure that, and we're very transparent 00:11:36.659 --> 00:11:38.159 with our membership. And I think that happens 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:40.960 across the country is, you know, making sure 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:42.440 they know that you can't have one without the 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:44.549 other. You really do need to build an economy 00:11:44.549 --> 00:11:47.909 in order to be self -sufficient and build out 00:11:47.909 --> 00:11:50.830 programming that's different. We know like Western 00:11:50.830 --> 00:11:53.350 programming doesn't necessarily work for our 00:11:53.350 --> 00:11:56.350 people. So, you know, having a program relationship 00:11:56.350 --> 00:11:58.129 with the government isn't going to fix that. 00:11:58.309 --> 00:12:01.090 Having an economy though will. And that's a lot 00:12:01.090 --> 00:12:04.899 of my passion and what I enjoy doing now. You 00:12:04.899 --> 00:12:08.419 mentioned the land, which is the land subcommittee, 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.519 is that of the FNFA? Lands Advisory Board is 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.259 one of the institutions that are nationally, 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:18.299 they're not part of the First Nations Fiscal 00:12:18.299 --> 00:12:20.519 Management Act, but they are one of the institutions 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:23.480 that are attached to this organization we call 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:27.899 Leading the Way. Land is such a critical element 00:12:27.899 --> 00:12:30.059 of Indigenous life and there's such a strong 00:12:30.059 --> 00:12:34.720 connection. What's happening in 2025 in the area 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.600 of land management or land acquisition? Buying 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:42.639 land back. I think it was you two that brought 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:44.500 me to the term, the Yellowstone term, right? 00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:46.539 And that's kind of the show I haven't watched 00:12:46.539 --> 00:12:49.059 yet, but I've been told numerous times that what 00:12:49.059 --> 00:12:51.940 we're doing is akin to what Yellowstone is about. 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:55.779 We've gone out and used the capital now, used 00:12:55.779 --> 00:12:59.399 our resources that we have through economic development 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.370 to go and buy our land back. One of the only 00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:05.230 ways to actually try to get land back is through 00:13:05.230 --> 00:13:08.309 negotiations or settling a treaty with the federal 00:13:08.309 --> 00:13:11.870 government and provincial governments. But that's 00:13:11.870 --> 00:13:14.950 proven to be extremely difficult, lengthy. My 00:13:14.950 --> 00:13:17.009 community has spent almost 30 years in a treaty 00:13:17.009 --> 00:13:19.110 process and we didn't get a single piece of land 00:13:19.110 --> 00:13:21.220 back. And at the end of the day, it didn't work 00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:23.519 for us. It's not saying treaties don't work for 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:25.039 every community, but it just didn't work for 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:28.840 us. We took the economic approach and now we've 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.259 been able to acquire land back, expedite something 00:13:32.259 --> 00:13:35.019 called the additions to reserve process because 00:13:35.019 --> 00:13:38.279 of our capacity and our jurisdictions and our 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:41.039 ability to actually move at the speed of business. 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.720 And now we have a goal of doubling our land base 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:49.940 in 2025, acquiring land through raising capital. 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:52.600 You know, at this year's summit, we had a group, 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:54.840 Hungerford group, sharing about seven generations 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.639 capital. We have Cedar Leaf, or we have these 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:00.860 other organizations as well that are accessing 00:14:00.860 --> 00:14:03.360 the capital markets. And we're really tapping 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:06.639 into those revenue streams to go and do major 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:09.279 land acquisitions and then develop joint ventures 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:14.080 to have equity participation in all aspects of 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.679 land development. When you talk about land acquisitions, 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:19.360 you're talking about going into private. The 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.700 private market, buying land from private owners 00:14:22.700 --> 00:14:28.159 at market rates, and then taking that territory 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:32.279 and adding it to your reserve base. Yeah, and 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:34.799 it takes time, it takes money, it takes resources. 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:36.480 But at the end of the day, when we add it to 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:39.779 our reserve base, we function as any other government 00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:43.059 and we do rely on property taxation like any 00:14:43.059 --> 00:14:44.799 other government has to. And that's where we 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:48.519 see that we use a shared... this year at the 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:51.019 summit, the term Tomiuk, it's that seven generational 00:14:51.019 --> 00:14:55.059 thinking. And so we, we take that lens to it, 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:58.379 knowing that, you know, real estate is, it can 00:14:58.379 --> 00:15:01.379 be risky, but it can be successful. proven is 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:04.139 over time is proven to be a very successful investment. 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.759 Um, but we know over, over time, that tax revenue 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:10.179 is something that my community can really depend 00:15:10.179 --> 00:15:12.519 on. Where is your community located again, just 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:14.340 for all our audience? About an hour and a half 00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:16.580 East of Vancouver on the West coast. Right. Yeah. 00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:19.500 So if you bring land back in, you're not bringing 00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:21.720 it back into nature just to leave. So nobody 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.259 develops it. You're actually, if I recall correctly, 00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:26.460 developing it. Yeah. I mean, there, there is 00:15:26.460 --> 00:15:29.340 aspects of, of both there is, you know, but yeah, 00:15:29.379 --> 00:15:31.750 but the, purpose of doing these land acquisitions 00:15:31.750 --> 00:15:35.769 is so our community has the ability to continue 00:15:35.769 --> 00:15:37.950 to do the development over the next, you know, 00:15:37.950 --> 00:15:41.789 30, 40 years. And if we can acquire the land 00:15:41.789 --> 00:15:44.710 we want to, I know that our future councils, 00:15:44.830 --> 00:15:47.990 our economic development corporation has the 00:15:47.990 --> 00:15:52.309 ability to, over time, continue to invest and 00:15:52.309 --> 00:15:55.179 develop out. Part of it is like, we know like 00:15:55.179 --> 00:15:57.580 some of the land we've bought, it has watercourses 00:15:57.580 --> 00:16:00.059 through it. And that sustainable piece that we're 00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:03.080 trying to do as well is reinvigorate and restore 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:05.399 some of the watercourses at the same time. So 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:07.559 it goes hand in hand. I was very lucky to be 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.320 able to go out to your territory about a year 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:16.070 ago. And I loved seeing the 3D map. or model 00:16:16.070 --> 00:16:18.889 you had that was a size bigger than this table. 00:16:19.669 --> 00:16:23.129 Most of it was, I forget which color, but the 00:16:23.129 --> 00:16:26.250 traditional territories. And then the actual 00:16:26.250 --> 00:16:30.389 reserve in the middle was a postage stamp size. 00:16:30.570 --> 00:16:33.250 And so what you're talking about, and that includes 00:16:33.250 --> 00:16:37.190 the valleys, but then gorgeous British Columbia 00:16:37.190 --> 00:16:41.409 mountains and lakes. You're talking about buying 00:16:41.409 --> 00:16:44.440 more of that traditional territory back. Exactly. 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.860 And that's a lot. So then you look at the national 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:49.100 scale. That's a lot of what's happening. And 00:16:49.100 --> 00:16:51.779 you have, especially if you look in Winnipeg 00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:54.539 or Ontario or some of the more rural and remote 00:16:54.539 --> 00:16:57.519 communities, in order for them to build - Sorry, 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:01.919 I'm from Brandon. Winnipeg is not rural. Everything 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:05.079 between Brandon and Winnipeg is, but Winnipeg. 00:17:05.289 --> 00:17:07.650 What they're doing now, though, is buying these 00:17:07.650 --> 00:17:10.329 urban reserves, is actually buying fee -simple 00:17:10.329 --> 00:17:14.490 land and navigating these processes and developing 00:17:14.490 --> 00:17:16.890 urban reserves so they can actually build an 00:17:16.890 --> 00:17:19.529 economy. And then they can go back to their, 00:17:19.609 --> 00:17:22.150 you know, more rural, depending on where they 00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:24.750 are, their reserves and be able to invest and 00:17:24.750 --> 00:17:27.109 bring in that critical infrastructure. Because 00:17:27.109 --> 00:17:30.329 you see when nations actually get that municipal 00:17:30.329 --> 00:17:32.910 -like infrastructure, that's when their economies 00:17:32.910 --> 00:17:35.480 begin to grow. takes time, that takes money, 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:38.420 that takes resources. In order to do that, First 00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:41.220 Nations are now, as you said, buying land in 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:44.319 their territory, fee simple, private land, and 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.700 taking that jurisdictional approach and really 00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:50.960 beginning to be large players in all of Canada's 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:53.099 economy. So what's the next steps for the FNA? 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:55.920 Where are you in terms of evolving that? Because 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.779 that organization just seems to get stronger 00:17:57.779 --> 00:17:59.400 and stronger. Yeah, so there's a lot of exciting 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:01.720 stuff going on in the FNFA. And really, we're 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.160 taking the next step to be able to change some 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.220 of our policy to land a special purpose vehicles. 00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:09.140 And that will really support a lot of the dialogue 00:18:09.140 --> 00:18:12.740 that we had at this year's summit in the resource 00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:15.480 or renewable energy projects. What happens when 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.740 these projects are being considered is you have 00:18:18.740 --> 00:18:21.319 to go through a process of identifying impacted 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:24.500 First Nations. communities across Canada. And 00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:27.140 they could have the opportunity of participating 00:18:27.140 --> 00:18:29.559 in equity ownership stakes of these projects. 00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:33.160 Involved in one right now that has the potential 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:36.900 of up to 46 communities that can be involved 00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:40.220 in one resource project. Are they all touch biters 00:18:40.220 --> 00:18:42.420 in investment opportunity? Investment opportunity. 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:45.960 It's within their territory. So they're identified 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:49.099 as having impacts on the project. So they have 00:18:49.099 --> 00:18:52.380 the ability to, it triggers a consultation. but 00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:55.299 also what proponents, and this is the important 00:18:55.299 --> 00:18:57.839 part now, are getting ahead of that and coming 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:01.059 to First Nations before projects are being considered 00:19:01.059 --> 00:19:04.059 to talk about equity ownership. It de -risks 00:19:04.059 --> 00:19:07.400 the project, but it also is important to economic 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.740 reconciliation to really have Indigenous communities 00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:13.319 involved in these projects. Now, what happens, 00:19:13.339 --> 00:19:15.619 though, is we create special purpose vehicles 00:19:15.619 --> 00:19:18.440 through limited partnerships, general partnerships, 00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:21.670 and we create a transaction committee subset 00:19:21.670 --> 00:19:24.789 of those 46 potential communities to actually 00:19:24.789 --> 00:19:28.029 stick handle the negotiations so that we don't 00:19:28.029 --> 00:19:31.450 have 46 individual communities having to be. 00:19:32.370 --> 00:19:35.730 negotiating one project. It really helps speed 00:19:35.730 --> 00:19:39.569 up the process and ensures that there's a de 00:19:39.569 --> 00:19:41.950 -risking element to the investment as well. So 00:19:41.950 --> 00:19:44.410 that's the next step for the FNFA so that we 00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:47.190 can lend to those special purpose vehicles. Right 00:19:47.190 --> 00:19:50.569 now, we can't. So it's a gap in the market. And 00:19:50.569 --> 00:19:54.309 you see when you're talking about the competitive 00:19:54.309 --> 00:19:56.869 interest rates that the FNFA can offer, that 00:19:56.869 --> 00:19:59.849 really enhances all the revenue streams back 00:19:59.849 --> 00:20:02.099 to the nations. And that's... That's the critical 00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:04.519 part about what we're trying to do is, you know, 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:06.539 every dollar makes a difference when you're talking 00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:08.779 about bringing revenues back to First Nations. 00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:11.680 And that's the next step for the FNFA. Just coming 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:16.720 back to the summit, Clearwater. Yes. Seafoods, 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.440 which the FNFA was involved with. Yep. And that 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:23.299 was a group of seven. Yes. That came together. 00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:25.380 You didn't need an SPV for that because I think 00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:27.579 they resolved it. Yeah, they did. It was individual 00:20:27.579 --> 00:20:29.920 loans to the individual communities, and they 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.059 had varying percentages of equity depending on 00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:36.119 their risk tolerance and their ability to actually 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:39.259 pledge revenue streams to be a part of that project. 00:20:39.339 --> 00:20:41.079 Right. And then just a shareholder's agreement, 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:45.339 I guess, because it was a 50 % shareholder. So 00:20:45.339 --> 00:20:47.619 you're talking something obviously completely 00:20:47.619 --> 00:20:50.000 different in terms of scale. Yeah. We're talking 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:52.480 about multi -billion dollar projects, right? 00:20:52.660 --> 00:20:55.200 If you're a proponent of a project and you want 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:59.579 to do it, equity with Indigenous peoples. You 00:20:59.579 --> 00:21:05.720 do not want 30, 40, sometimes more shareholders 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.140 that you have to deal with. So set up a separate 00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:10.420 entity where the governance can be looked after 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:12.900 separately and you're just dealing with the one. 00:21:14.140 --> 00:21:16.900 One face. Exactly. And that's critical to the 00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:19.680 success of these deals. Even if you look at Trans 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:24.119 Mountain, likely that's going to be divested 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:27.059 eventually onto First Nations as well. Potential 00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:30.640 of 130 communities could be involved. But again, 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:32.940 it's that subcommittee that will be established 00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:35.299 to stick handle the negotiations. So where is 00:21:35.299 --> 00:21:37.759 Trans Mountain? Trans Mountain runs from Alberta. 00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:41.839 Oh, sorry. In terms of the timeline. Yeah. of 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.059 you know what's happening but please explain 00:21:44.059 --> 00:21:46.519 geographically where it is for because we all 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:49.579 said and we know where it is i mean trans mountain 00:21:49.579 --> 00:21:54.279 was about in 2024 it was announced that they 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:57.339 were going to try to offload uh trans mountain 00:21:57.339 --> 00:22:00.440 to first nations it stalled out because of the 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.599 election in 2025 but everything's indicating 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.960 to this next government uh the current government 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:11.599 will be looking to offload the asset to the first 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.099 nations um in this in this term so this was the 00:22:15.099 --> 00:22:17.920 crude oil pipeline running from alberta to take 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.880 the oil to the coast of british columbia and 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.359 uh federal government took over the project total 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:27.140 cost something like 30 billion dollars 34 35 00:22:27.140 --> 00:22:30.279 billion 35 billion dollars but it is complete 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:34.970 uh it's operational and uh And it's, I don't 00:22:34.970 --> 00:22:39.309 know what the 800 ,000 barrels a day of additional 00:22:39.309 --> 00:22:42.130 capacity for. It's flowing through now. Yeah. 00:22:42.190 --> 00:22:46.740 Right. So sunk cost. Yeah. And ultimately we 00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:49.259 know like, you know, the, when the federal government 00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:51.880 took over that, it de -risked the actual build 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:55.059 out of it as well. And we know the $35 billion 00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:57.400 that it costs to build it. That's not going to 00:22:57.400 --> 00:22:59.000 be the price that that's going to be paid for 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.359 that either. Right. There's going to be a bit 00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.720 of a reduction because of the escalated prices 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:05.500 that it took to build that out. But it's still, 00:23:05.539 --> 00:23:07.400 it's going to be a, you know, I would, I would 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:09.559 guess it's going to be north of $20 billion. 00:23:10.059 --> 00:23:12.519 What I love about part of the story anyway, was 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:15.369 you were, you're, you're. community is directly 00:23:15.369 --> 00:23:18.269 affected the pipeline runs right through you 00:23:18.269 --> 00:23:23.369 were part of groups objecting to the build and 00:23:23.369 --> 00:23:26.710 taking going to court and slowing things down 00:23:26.710 --> 00:23:29.410 now you're part of a group that may want to buy 00:23:29.410 --> 00:23:32.549 it yeah how how does that work an investor over 00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:36.730 here seeing media coverage of yeah the court 00:23:36.730 --> 00:23:39.230 cases and now saying but those people are now 00:23:39.230 --> 00:23:42.349 buying and he's chair of the fnfa yeah yeah yeah 00:23:42.349 --> 00:23:46.180 yeah i mean Really what it came down to was we 00:23:46.180 --> 00:23:48.920 wanted to have our environmental standards met. 00:23:49.099 --> 00:23:51.740 And at the time, none of them were being, we 00:23:51.740 --> 00:23:54.700 had 89 recommendations that we put out from my 00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:56.980 tribe to say like to protect the environment, 00:23:57.059 --> 00:24:00.539 protect the fish. One was adopted, one of 89. 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.720 So that was where the issues were. So now strategically 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.000 understanding that, you know, the project's done, 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.740 oil's flowing. So now what we've taken the approach, 00:24:09.859 --> 00:24:11.440 and this is what a lot of the shift over the 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:13.519 years has been now, is, okay, well, let's get 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:15.700 involved in these projects, owning the asset, 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.619 so we can make sure that the environmental mitigation 00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:22.920 measures that we want to be involved in, well, 00:24:23.019 --> 00:24:25.420 let's be an owner. Then we can actually have, 00:24:25.539 --> 00:24:27.940 instead of sitting on the sidelines and complaining, 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:32.460 you know, and really, you know, not showing support, 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.390 well, let's own it. And let's be able to put 00:24:35.390 --> 00:24:36.990 in some of the measures that we've talked about 00:24:36.990 --> 00:24:41.789 and be that responsible owner of an asset like 00:24:41.789 --> 00:24:43.950 that. So that's where the mindset has really 00:24:43.950 --> 00:24:46.470 shifted over the years. And that's why I think 00:24:46.470 --> 00:24:49.309 you're going to see the investment in the next 00:24:49.309 --> 00:24:52.190 couple of years in a lot of resource and renewable 00:24:52.190 --> 00:24:54.470 energy projects. Because, you know, First Nations 00:24:54.470 --> 00:24:56.630 have shifted their mindset to let's own, let's 00:24:56.630 --> 00:24:58.730 control, let's protect the environment a bit 00:24:58.730 --> 00:25:02.849 more rigorously. And that's, in my mind, I've 00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:04.890 always... really thought that way, but it's really 00:25:04.890 --> 00:25:07.809 starting to get traction across Canada now. Yes. 00:25:07.869 --> 00:25:10.250 And I think the other thing, we had Indigenous 00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:12.230 people from across the country, which was great, 00:25:12.309 --> 00:25:15.950 right? North, south, east, east, west. But you 00:25:15.950 --> 00:25:19.309 hear a lot about British Columbia and what's 00:25:19.309 --> 00:25:21.609 going on there. And I guess, is that partly because 00:25:21.609 --> 00:25:25.029 so much isn't covered by treaty or are these 00:25:25.029 --> 00:25:28.509 the nations who are, you know, new opportunities 00:25:28.509 --> 00:25:30.130 in front of them are taking a different look 00:25:30.130 --> 00:25:33.359 at how to... how to proceed and succeed i think 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:35.200 it's both right i think it's it's there's so 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.900 many others there's a lot of uh bc alone the 00:25:37.900 --> 00:25:39.799 the critical minerals and resources available 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:43.980 in bc alone are um substantial and you there's 00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:45.819 going to be a lot more linear projects needed 00:25:45.819 --> 00:25:48.579 to really get some of these resources to the 00:25:48.579 --> 00:25:50.599 international markets you look at the heisley 00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:54.900 deal cedar lng um huge success and that's something 00:25:54.900 --> 00:25:57.599 that i think we're going to see repeated uh more 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.519 often now and um you know first nations now are 00:26:01.539 --> 00:26:04.880 We know how to navigate these projects. It was 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.660 newer to a lot of the communities in the southern 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:11.019 BC area. But a lot of these new projects, you 00:26:11.019 --> 00:26:13.160 know, the Trans Mountain, the liquid natural 00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:15.819 gas projects has created comfort for more of 00:26:15.819 --> 00:26:18.259 the southern communities now. And we're really, 00:26:18.299 --> 00:26:20.200 you know, looking forward to what's possible 00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:22.759 in the next coming years on resource projects. 00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:26.000 And we're ready. We're ready to take charge in 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:28.859 some of these. That just reinforces. in terms 00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:32.240 of Canada being an energy superpower and the 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:35.440 potential that still remains, right? A lot of 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:37.700 the hydro is done and covered, but there's all 00:26:37.700 --> 00:26:40.779 kinds of other opportunities in natural resources 00:26:40.779 --> 00:26:43.980 and infrastructure to take everything to the 00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:46.559 next level as Canada goes ahead and repositions 00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:49.279 its trading relationships. Absolutely. Indigenous 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.680 people will be at the heart of the trading relationships 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:55.319 once again with foreign nations, which is great. 00:26:55.420 --> 00:26:58.609 It's exciting times. Chief, thanks again. Great 00:26:58.609 --> 00:27:01.529 to see you. And thanks for taking the time out 00:27:01.529 --> 00:27:03.809 to chat with us. Thanks for having me. Looking 00:27:03.809 --> 00:27:08.470 forward to it. Thank you, Chief. Thank you to 00:27:08.470 --> 00:27:10.650 Chief Derrick Gap for sharing his insights with 00:27:10.650 --> 00:27:13.349 us. And thank you for viewing and listening. 00:27:13.789 --> 00:27:16.269 Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave a review 00:27:16.269 --> 00:27:19.130 on your favorite podcast channel. Thanks for 00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:21.289 listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.