WEBVTT 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.040 Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:05.700 which explains why Indigenous partnerships are 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:08.679 the key to securing successful outcomes in natural 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:11.060 resource and infrastructure investment in Canada. 00:00:11.939 --> 00:00:14.519 I'm Mark McNacca, and my co -host Robert Brant 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:17.100 and I are joined today by Jamie Lickers, Senior 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:19.420 Vice President of Indigenous Markets at CIBC. 00:00:19.820 --> 00:00:22.440 We discussed her role in helping Indigenous communities 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:25.379 grow stronger economically. She's also talked 00:00:25.379 --> 00:00:27.679 about how CIBC manages the largest collection 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:31.420 of Indigenous trust assets in the country. Jamie 00:00:31.420 --> 00:00:35.100 Lickers, Senior Vice President, Indigenous Markets 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:37.380 at CIBC. It's great to have you back in London. 00:00:37.820 --> 00:00:41.200 Welcome to the podcast. Yes, welcome. Great to 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:43.880 have you here, Jamie. And thank you for coming 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:46.719 earlier to the summit. Oh, it was my pleasure. 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:49.640 It was such a wonderful and productive day. Maybe 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:51.719 first, Jamie, tell us a little bit about your 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:53.820 background, where you're from, your community, 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:56.740 and a little bit about your role today and how 00:00:56.740 --> 00:01:01.179 you got there. Happily. So, as you know, Rob, 00:01:01.420 --> 00:01:05.079 like you, I'm Haudenosaunee. I'm a member, though, 00:01:05.159 --> 00:01:07.480 of the Onondaga Nation, not the Mohawk Nation, 00:01:07.659 --> 00:01:10.900 from the community of Six Nations, which is in 00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:14.319 southern Ontario. So I grew up in my community, 00:01:14.519 --> 00:01:17.459 which is located fairly centrally in Ontario 00:01:17.459 --> 00:01:21.060 between Hamilton and Brantford. So fairly... 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:24.180 urban Indigenous community, not remote by any 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:27.780 standards. And I spent my young years there growing 00:01:27.780 --> 00:01:31.159 up with my family, who still is in Six Nations, 00:01:31.379 --> 00:01:36.099 and left the community when I was 18, went off 00:01:36.099 --> 00:01:39.680 to do my undergrad and my legal studies at Queen's 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:42.200 University, which I'm a proud, proud alum of 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.099 Queen's. As I am. Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. We 00:01:45.099 --> 00:01:47.519 should chat about that a bit more. I loved it 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:50.439 so much I went back for law school, despite all 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:52.980 of the other amazing options for legal studies 00:01:52.980 --> 00:01:57.180 in Canada. Great law school. Great focus on Indigenous 00:01:57.180 --> 00:02:01.159 law, which is what I ended up focusing my practice 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:06.450 on. So I'm not a banker by... trade. I'm not 00:02:06.450 --> 00:02:09.270 a career banker. You're a lawyer. I'm a lawyer 00:02:09.270 --> 00:02:12.689 first. I don't know which is better. I can tell 00:02:12.689 --> 00:02:14.729 you which is worse, but maybe we'll leave that 00:02:14.729 --> 00:02:18.629 for another day. I often joke that I'm a recovering 00:02:18.629 --> 00:02:21.030 lawyer, although I'm not really sure that you 00:02:21.030 --> 00:02:24.490 ever fully recover from practicing law. I'll 00:02:24.490 --> 00:02:26.590 let you know in a few years, but I've only been 00:02:26.590 --> 00:02:29.270 with the bank for about four and a half years 00:02:29.270 --> 00:02:32.469 now. So I joined the bank in the fall of 2020. 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:37.580 after about 12 years of practicing law in private 00:02:37.580 --> 00:02:41.539 practice for two big corporate national law firms, 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:44.060 but always on the Indigenous side of things. 00:02:44.740 --> 00:02:48.580 And later in my career, I came to specialize 00:02:48.580 --> 00:02:53.240 in a distinct area of financial services law 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:55.780 for Indigenous clients, primarily developing 00:02:55.780 --> 00:02:58.280 trust agreements for them when they settled. 00:02:59.210 --> 00:03:02.229 large -scale claims against the government or 00:03:02.229 --> 00:03:05.189 entered into lucrative resource revenue sharing 00:03:05.189 --> 00:03:09.449 deals. Most of those communities will take those 00:03:09.449 --> 00:03:12.930 funds and put them into trust. It still is, I 00:03:12.930 --> 00:03:16.330 would say, the most popular legal vehicle for 00:03:16.330 --> 00:03:18.870 holding and managing the assets of the community. 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:22.560 And I found that there were not many lawyers 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:26.599 at all in Canada that were specializing in the 00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:29.419 drafting and structuring of trusts specifically 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:32.419 for Indigenous communities. So it was quite a 00:03:32.419 --> 00:03:35.360 niche area. And through that work, I came to 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.819 work very closely with all of the trust companies 00:03:38.819 --> 00:03:41.900 in Canada, all the major trust companies, most 00:03:41.900 --> 00:03:44.919 of whom are affiliated with the large banks in 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:49.680 Canada. That included CIBC. I did quite a bit 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.340 of work with CIBC when I was practicing law. 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:55.699 They became one of my largest clients. And then 00:03:55.699 --> 00:03:58.280 eventually they invited me over to head up the 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.620 Indigenous Markets team. And the rest is history, 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:04.740 as they say. Maybe a bit about the role. And 00:04:04.740 --> 00:04:09.039 we can compare backstories at some point, too, 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.780 because you've got a similar backstory to yourself. 00:04:14.590 --> 00:04:18.449 The title, Indigenous Markets, and is that different 00:04:18.449 --> 00:04:22.110 from Indigenous Banking or Indigenous Relations? 00:04:23.050 --> 00:04:26.009 What is your role involved? Yeah, that's a great 00:04:26.009 --> 00:04:31.329 question. I would say that the title of the team 00:04:31.329 --> 00:04:33.870 that I lead at the bank is quite intentional. 00:04:34.810 --> 00:04:37.610 It's not Indigenous relations and it's not Indigenous 00:04:37.610 --> 00:04:40.350 banking. And of course, many of our counterparts 00:04:40.350 --> 00:04:43.670 in the financial industry will have teams and 00:04:43.670 --> 00:04:46.509 leaders of things called Indigenous banking or 00:04:46.509 --> 00:04:50.470 Indigenous relations. My position as the leader 00:04:50.470 --> 00:04:53.870 of our Indigenous markets team at CIBC really 00:04:53.870 --> 00:04:57.509 reflects the primary lines of business that we 00:04:57.509 --> 00:05:01.050 operate in, which currently include commercial 00:05:01.050 --> 00:05:05.649 banking and trust management. So I lead a team 00:05:05.649 --> 00:05:08.990 of professionals across the country who are dedicated 00:05:08.990 --> 00:05:11.490 to serving the needs of our Indigenous clients 00:05:11.490 --> 00:05:14.509 in those two spaces. So our commercial banking 00:05:14.509 --> 00:05:17.990 team services, for the most part, Indigenous 00:05:17.990 --> 00:05:21.910 governments as public entities. So Indian Act 00:05:21.910 --> 00:05:25.670 bans, self -governing nations, Métis settlement 00:05:25.670 --> 00:05:29.680 councils, Inuit governments. as the public sector 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.860 entities. And then, of course, we support their 00:05:32.860 --> 00:05:35.139 related entities. So as you know, many of them 00:05:35.139 --> 00:05:37.439 will have economic development corporations. 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:40.660 They may run their own health and education authorities. 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:44.180 And so we would service those public sector entities 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:48.879 as opposed to serving private clients or privately 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:52.620 owned Indigenous business. That's outside of 00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:55.810 the work that my team does at CIBC. And then 00:05:55.810 --> 00:05:57.970 on the other side of the business, I oversee 00:05:57.970 --> 00:06:02.529 a team of trust experts that sit under our CIBC 00:06:02.529 --> 00:06:06.829 Trust Company, but service only the needs and 00:06:06.829 --> 00:06:10.470 the assets of our Indigenous trust clients. And 00:06:10.470 --> 00:06:13.730 I'm very proud to say that, to our knowledge, 00:06:13.910 --> 00:06:16.589 we now have the largest book of Indigenous trust 00:06:16.589 --> 00:06:21.230 assets under administration at CIBC, totaling... 00:06:21.819 --> 00:06:25.279 somewhere between 27 and 28 billion. It changes 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:27.480 every day. New files come in every day. Can you 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.779 explain a bit for our audience about the Indigenous 00:06:29.779 --> 00:06:33.740 Trust business and what's involved in that? Definitely. 00:06:35.019 --> 00:06:37.579 Trusts are my passion. It's where I focused my 00:06:37.579 --> 00:06:40.699 legal practice towards the end of my legal career 00:06:40.699 --> 00:06:42.980 and a big part of the reason that I came over 00:06:42.980 --> 00:06:45.939 to CIBC. So I can talk about Indigenous trust 00:06:45.939 --> 00:06:48.500 in my sleep. I can talk about the taxation of 00:06:48.500 --> 00:06:50.879 Indigenous trust in my sleep, whether that's 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:53.339 good or bad. Again, I'm still recovering from 00:06:53.339 --> 00:06:56.339 being a lawyer. But an absolutely growing and 00:06:56.339 --> 00:06:59.100 booming business, I bet. The number of settlements 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:02.980 and the need for expertise to manage. Settlement 00:07:02.980 --> 00:07:06.379 funds. As you said, new files every day, I bet. 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:12.060 It is. It's growing so quickly that we admittedly 00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:15.720 have a difficult time keeping up with the growth 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.160 of our team and our human capital to service 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.699 the demand for the services in the market. The 00:07:22.699 --> 00:07:26.100 number of claims that are being settled is just 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:32.639 absolutely exploding. Those claims include individual 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.160 claims, Rob, as you would know, at the specific 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:39.860 claims tribunal where one particular nation might 00:07:39.860 --> 00:07:42.620 be advancing a claim related to a breach of a 00:07:42.620 --> 00:07:46.019 treaty promise or the failure to deliver on some 00:07:46.019 --> 00:07:49.899 commitment from the Crown. And they would settle 00:07:49.899 --> 00:07:53.420 that claim on behalf of their nation alone. And 00:07:53.420 --> 00:07:55.459 those claims can easily be in the hundreds of 00:07:55.459 --> 00:07:58.839 millions of dollars. But now we're also seeing... 00:07:59.339 --> 00:08:02.839 two additional avenues of large -scale settlements. 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:08.060 One is the collective advancement of treaty -based 00:08:08.060 --> 00:08:12.240 claims on behalf of the group of nations that 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:15.060 are all signatories to a particular treaty. So 00:08:15.060 --> 00:08:19.300 last year, we saw the historic settlement of 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:23.160 the Robinson -Huron claim, which was advanced 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.920 by all of the nations who are signatories to 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.860 the Robinson -Huron Treaty for the failure of 00:08:28.860 --> 00:08:31.339 the Crown to increase their annuity payments 00:08:31.339 --> 00:08:35.379 to properly reflect the value. of natural resources 00:08:35.379 --> 00:08:38.460 that was extracted from those territories. Sorry, 00:08:38.539 --> 00:08:41.899 can you just give our audience some idea of the 00:08:41.899 --> 00:08:45.039 geography? Where is that area located in Canada? 00:08:45.139 --> 00:08:48.419 The Robinson -Huron Treaty Territory would be, 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:51.419 we say Northern Ontario, but then the folks from 00:08:51.419 --> 00:08:53.259 the Ring of Fire would tell us that it's not 00:08:53.259 --> 00:08:56.480 Northern Ontario. Middle Ontario. Central, Middle 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:02.519 Ontario, up into a bit of the... the western 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:06.559 area of the Great Lakes. So to my knowledge, 00:09:06.620 --> 00:09:09.139 and I'm not a treaty expert per se, but I believe 00:09:09.139 --> 00:09:11.840 there were 21 nations that are signatories to 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:14.379 that Robinson -Huron Treaty. And they were all 00:09:14.379 --> 00:09:17.519 promised under that treaty an annuity payment 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.419 of $4 a year at the time the treaty was signed 00:09:20.419 --> 00:09:23.460 to reflect the value of resources being extracted 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:27.259 from their collective territory. That $4 a year, 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:30.600 that amount was never increased. Despite, as 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:34.600 you can imagine, the exponential change in the 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:37.100 dollar value of the resources being extracted. 00:09:37.580 --> 00:09:41.320 So the settlement was just over $21 billion for 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:43.580 those nations. It was a really interesting legal 00:09:43.580 --> 00:09:47.200 issue too, as I recall, because within the treaty 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:51.100 there was no inflation adjusted provision that 00:09:51.100 --> 00:09:53.559 said we would increase it or we had to increase 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:57.179 that amount every year. But there was a discretionary. 00:09:57.610 --> 00:10:04.250 clause in it about the crown, I think, had discretion 00:10:04.250 --> 00:10:09.690 to increase the amount, but the claim was successful 00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:13.049 because I think the court said there was discretion, 00:10:13.230 --> 00:10:17.870 but any reasonable party would treat that. There's 00:10:17.870 --> 00:10:20.610 no way you could say you exercised your discretion 00:10:20.610 --> 00:10:23.629 in a reasonable way, given that you never increased 00:10:23.629 --> 00:10:27.289 that amount. And over time, with interest to 00:10:27.289 --> 00:10:31.009 add it up. The $21 billion was a settled amount. 00:10:31.210 --> 00:10:33.990 It's unclear how much would have been awarded 00:10:33.990 --> 00:10:36.490 had the issue of damages gone to the courts. 00:10:36.809 --> 00:10:39.750 So coming back, the federal government has on 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:42.710 its balance sheet $70 billion in terms of liabilities, 00:10:42.789 --> 00:10:45.029 I think, for claims. Is that approximately the 00:10:45.029 --> 00:10:46.549 right number? I think they've set aside, yeah, 00:10:46.629 --> 00:10:50.450 as a reserve that's sort of in their financial 00:10:50.450 --> 00:10:52.750 accounts. But this would be outside of that. 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:57.139 Yeah, the 70 is to come, an amount they expect 00:10:57.139 --> 00:11:01.600 to come yet. The 20, I think, is already accounted 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:05.179 for. Well, similarly, as you would know, there 00:11:05.179 --> 00:11:10.440 is a companion treaty in the Robinson Superior 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:14.559 Treaty area, the Robinson -Huron region where 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:17.419 that treaty was signed by the 21 nations. Now 00:11:17.419 --> 00:11:20.899 we have the Robinson Superior Treaty, which has 00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:24.240 the same language. has the same $4 annuity payment, 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.639 which was also never increased by the Crown. 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:32.059 And so everyone is waiting to see what the settlement 00:11:32.059 --> 00:11:35.200 will be on the Robinson -Superior Treaty claim, 00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:37.960 because it's a bit difficult for the Crown to 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.639 deny liability when they've paid out on the Robinson 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:44.779 -Huron Treaty. So billions. It will be billions. 00:11:45.059 --> 00:11:48.139 And it's Lake Superior, Lake Huron, right? To 00:11:48.139 --> 00:11:52.309 help people put those names in. Attach it all. 00:11:52.370 --> 00:11:55.029 And again, the reference to the crown, which 00:11:55.029 --> 00:11:57.570 a lot of people might not understand because 00:11:57.570 --> 00:12:01.149 in Canada, everybody has a virtual monarchy because 00:12:01.149 --> 00:12:04.350 there's not a physical representation of the 00:12:04.350 --> 00:12:05.929 crown. There's the governor general represents, 00:12:06.350 --> 00:12:10.370 but all these treaties are with the crown, which 00:12:10.370 --> 00:12:15.470 comes back to the federal government. And that 00:12:15.470 --> 00:12:18.129 is very unique. I understand when we're at the 00:12:18.129 --> 00:12:20.830 Commonwealth Summit. That was before our Canadian 00:12:20.830 --> 00:12:26.169 Indigenous Investment Summit. Because our members 00:12:26.169 --> 00:12:28.409 who joined us, some of the leaders we had, like 00:12:28.409 --> 00:12:31.730 Harold Calla, Ernie Daniels were talking, Mark 00:12:31.730 --> 00:12:34.149 Palasi. We have a unique structure in Canada 00:12:34.149 --> 00:12:36.110 because of this relationship with the Crown. 00:12:36.529 --> 00:12:40.149 But that's a lot of money. So what is the size 00:12:40.149 --> 00:12:43.570 of the Indigenous trust market at the moment? 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:47.799 An estimate of what that is and where does CIBC 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:52.120 rank in terms of serving that market? Well, perhaps, 00:12:52.379 --> 00:12:55.200 so just to give you a fulsome picture of what 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:57.139 we're talking about. So in addition to those 00:12:57.139 --> 00:12:59.360 individual claims in the hundreds of millions 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:03.110 that I talked about, the... collective treaty 00:13:03.110 --> 00:13:05.470 claims like Robinson Huron and Robinson Superior, 00:13:05.710 --> 00:13:10.070 there is a third stream of settlements that we're 00:13:10.070 --> 00:13:12.750 seeing now, specifically in the class action 00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:16.590 space. And there we're talking about class action 00:13:16.590 --> 00:13:18.610 settlements like the residential school settlement, 00:13:18.970 --> 00:13:23.210 the child and family services settlement. We're 00:13:23.210 --> 00:13:26.049 seeing additional class actions being certified 00:13:26.049 --> 00:13:30.450 right now to advance. cases regarding collective 00:13:30.450 --> 00:13:33.850 harm suffered not by a nation or not because 00:13:33.850 --> 00:13:37.629 of a treaty right but just in regard to a failure 00:13:37.629 --> 00:13:40.389 to provide an adequate level of programs and 00:13:40.389 --> 00:13:43.190 services for Indigenous people in some area or 00:13:43.190 --> 00:13:44.769 another. Our firm, McCarthy Tetro, has been active 00:13:44.769 --> 00:13:47.269 in that, acting for First Nations on a clean 00:13:47.269 --> 00:13:50.669 water class action, which was settled for multiple 00:13:50.669 --> 00:13:53.429 billions of dollars just a couple of years ago. 00:13:53.490 --> 00:13:56.269 We've also got one at the moment for housing, 00:13:56.370 --> 00:14:00.830 the failure to provide adequate housing. So yeah, 00:14:00.889 --> 00:14:03.990 I talk about different streams of rights being... 00:14:05.629 --> 00:14:08.289 advanced courts have been very supportive. These 00:14:08.289 --> 00:14:12.409 claims take sometimes years and years to advance, 00:14:12.649 --> 00:14:14.769 but a lot of them seem to be coming to a head 00:14:14.769 --> 00:14:19.789 at the moment. And the courts are ruling in favor 00:14:19.789 --> 00:14:24.450 of the Indigenous people time after time. Notably, 00:14:24.509 --> 00:14:28.850 last year, the Child and Family Services class 00:14:28.850 --> 00:14:33.500 action was settled for $23 billion. Wow. So how 00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:35.919 much, you know, we've got this 70 billion that's 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.379 on the, for future claims, but the market up 00:14:39.379 --> 00:14:43.279 till now for these trusts, is it, I don't know, 00:14:43.299 --> 00:14:47.080 50 billion, 100 billion that's available out 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.320 there for you and others to compete? So it's 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:51.980 plus 100 billion. Plus 100 billion at the moment, 00:14:52.019 --> 00:14:58.600 of which CIBC has approximately 27 to 28 billion 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.539 in assets under management. So a significant 00:15:01.539 --> 00:15:05.120 portion. Yes. And that trust money then, can 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.659 it be used with the way the law is structured 00:15:07.659 --> 00:15:12.559 to leverage for investments? That's a great question. 00:15:12.820 --> 00:15:15.840 That's a really great question. We're finally 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.779 seeing the evolution of trust law. You have to 00:15:19.779 --> 00:15:25.059 keep in mind that trusts as legal entities were 00:15:25.059 --> 00:15:28.440 created for a very different purpose than... 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:32.440 how we're seeing Indigenous nations use those 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:36.399 entities now. So they were created, for the most 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:41.399 part, to manage wealth for a small pool of beneficiaries, 00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:45.740 usually a family. When Indigenous communities 00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:49.500 started adopting these structures to manage settlement 00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:53.500 funds, it fundamentally changed the nature and 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:57.620 the purpose of the trust as a legal entity. Because 00:15:57.620 --> 00:16:02.059 now you're talking about holding large pools 00:16:02.059 --> 00:16:07.840 of assets for a much larger pool of beneficiaries 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.659 and for very extended periods of time. So a lot 00:16:11.659 --> 00:16:15.919 of these trusts are structured to exist for 100 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.059 plus years. And where legislation doesn't prohibit 00:16:19.059 --> 00:16:21.360 it, they are specifically structured to last 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:25.039 in perpetuity. And the way the trusts are set 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:30.080 up. The capital is meant to be maintained and 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:34.500 to grow with inflation so that the nation maintains 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:39.419 the whole of that capital asset while also producing 00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:43.419 a reliable stream of revenue for program and 00:16:43.419 --> 00:16:46.980 service delivery in the community. So over time, 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.850 we have seen... the drafting and the structuring 00:16:50.850 --> 00:16:54.830 of these trusts really changed to recognize the 00:16:54.830 --> 00:16:57.029 needs of the Indigenous communities as opposed 00:16:57.029 --> 00:17:00.750 to the needs of wealthy families who may have 00:17:00.750 --> 00:17:03.730 historically used trust structures. One of those 00:17:03.730 --> 00:17:06.329 key developments over the last number of years 00:17:06.329 --> 00:17:12.750 has been the express permission to use trust 00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:17.029 assets as security for lending. In years past, 00:17:17.869 --> 00:17:21.190 In many cases, the use of trust property as security 00:17:21.190 --> 00:17:24.910 was expressly prohibited as opposed to permitted, 00:17:25.029 --> 00:17:29.910 which left many nations in a position where they 00:17:29.910 --> 00:17:35.289 had significant assets. In many cases, the bulk 00:17:35.289 --> 00:17:39.390 of their assets tied and locked into a trust, 00:17:39.470 --> 00:17:42.750 which had very stringent amendment provisions. 00:17:43.470 --> 00:17:45.849 They couldn't change. They couldn't access the 00:17:45.849 --> 00:17:50.230 capital. And the only benefit flowing from some 00:17:50.230 --> 00:17:53.170 of those older model trusts was an annual payment 00:17:53.170 --> 00:17:56.730 to the community. And at the same time, they 00:17:56.730 --> 00:17:59.990 couldn't get a capital loan to build a new community 00:17:59.990 --> 00:18:03.609 center. or to create a residence to keep their 00:18:03.609 --> 00:18:06.490 aging elders in their community and provide health 00:18:06.490 --> 00:18:08.869 care for them. So they had hundreds of millions 00:18:08.869 --> 00:18:11.609 of dollars of assets sitting in trust that they 00:18:11.609 --> 00:18:13.890 can't access, they can't change the terms of 00:18:13.890 --> 00:18:16.349 the trust, they can't withdraw capital, and they 00:18:16.349 --> 00:18:20.470 can't leverage it for lending. So lawyers, sometimes 00:18:20.470 --> 00:18:24.710 we get it right, thought we should probably do 00:18:24.710 --> 00:18:28.230 something about this. And I think there's a balance. 00:18:28.910 --> 00:18:33.109 to be struck between making it too easy to access 00:18:33.109 --> 00:18:36.569 the capital and too easy to leverage the capital 00:18:36.569 --> 00:18:39.890 of the community's largest pool of assets and 00:18:39.890 --> 00:18:43.349 making it too restrictive such that you're handcuffed. 00:18:43.410 --> 00:18:45.369 And you can imagine how controversial sometimes 00:18:45.369 --> 00:18:47.869 it can be within the community. There's some 00:18:47.869 --> 00:18:51.329 people who want to just, where's my check today? 00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:53.589 And there are other people who want to create 00:18:53.589 --> 00:18:57.789 a legacy that will last seven generations. and 00:18:57.789 --> 00:19:00.009 so there's that internal debate about what to 00:19:00.009 --> 00:19:01.869 do with these funds there's a settlement term 00:19:01.869 --> 00:19:06.190 sometimes restrictive um so there's a bit of 00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:11.109 a yeah a variety but it's a it's a growing business 00:19:11.109 --> 00:19:14.869 and capacity issues indigenous communities you 00:19:14.869 --> 00:19:19.000 know not a lot of them have the capacity to really 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:21.779 deal with those funds. They're reliant on advisors 00:19:21.779 --> 00:19:25.960 like CIBC and lawyers and others. Lawyers like 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:28.759 McCarthy Tetro. Lawyers like McCarthy Tetro to 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:31.359 help them manage those funds in the way that 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.099 the community wants them managed. Interesting. 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.400 An analogy from here in the UK, though, that 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:42.380 comes to mind for me is with North Sea Oil. So 00:19:42.380 --> 00:19:45.220 Norway was very smart and set up a sovereign 00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:48.819 wealth fund from the get -go. North Sea oil started 00:19:48.819 --> 00:19:53.160 to really flow during Thatcher's time, and they 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.160 just used it to fund the current account deficit, 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:57.839 and the money went out the door. So now that 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:03.160 North Sea oil is significantly reduced in terms 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:08.740 of the future output of it, here's Norway, very 00:20:08.740 --> 00:20:12.039 high standard of living, one of the largest sovereign 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:14.700 wealth funds, and here's the UK thinking about, 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:16.779 oh, we should maybe be setting out. sovereign 00:20:16.779 --> 00:20:20.900 wealth fund but all that oil revenue that could 00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:25.539 have gone into it hasn't and i think that's what 00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:28.099 as you said it is a contentious issue for any 00:20:28.099 --> 00:20:32.059 community hey i can get this for today or i can 00:20:32.059 --> 00:20:33.740 have something for tomorrow so there will be 00:20:33.740 --> 00:20:36.819 obviously a balance struck are there foreign 00:20:36.819 --> 00:20:43.900 firms competing against you for serving That 00:20:43.900 --> 00:20:45.819 business, I mean, the Canadian banking system 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:48.819 has come up in discussions from south of the 00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:51.779 border in the recent past. Canada's always had 00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:54.839 a relatively protected market, but it's been 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:58.579 served well, whether that's because of the objectives 00:20:58.579 --> 00:21:02.140 of the banks or the regulatory framework has 00:21:02.140 --> 00:21:07.640 prevented that. It has been a very stable banking 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.700 market. It's served well, perhaps higher fees, 00:21:10.819 --> 00:21:14.299 but that's not the... The question is, can foreign 00:21:14.299 --> 00:21:17.839 firms get in and compete against that? And how 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:19.940 does that look? I'm sure they would like to. 00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:24.640 I think that one of the challenges for Indigenous 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:27.960 communities generally in Canada right now is 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:33.900 for decades when they needed support and assistance 00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:37.660 and access to services, all kinds of services. 00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:42.299 There weren't necessarily many allies there offering 00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:46.920 to help. And in the last 10 to 20 years, as we 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.240 see the settlement of claims in the billions 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:54.140 of dollars, of course, we see an influx of people 00:21:54.140 --> 00:21:58.740 that are now interested in helping. And it's 00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:03.440 a difficult situation because choice in the marketplace 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.839 is important. And I work closely with my counterparts 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:10.119 at all of the other major financial institutions 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:13.259 in Canada. And I believe that many of them are 00:22:13.259 --> 00:22:15.720 doing very good work, as I believe that CIBC 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.519 is doing great work in the Indigenous space. 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:23.500 We like that our clients have choice. Now, they 00:22:23.500 --> 00:22:25.339 should have choice. Canadians generally have 00:22:25.339 --> 00:22:27.880 choice in terms of who they bank with, where 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:29.720 they place their assets, how they invest their 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:31.980 assets. So it's great that our Indigenous clients 00:22:31.980 --> 00:22:34.519 have that choice as well. But when you're coming 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:40.859 into large, incredibly large sums of money, you 00:22:40.859 --> 00:22:44.339 do have people looking to come in who maybe don't 00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:46.000 know how to support the Indigenous community 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.839 in the way that others might. that see the profit 00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:53.240 and the revenue to be made. And this is something 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:55.180 that our communities have always struggled with. 00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:58.819 Being able to tell the difference between a trusted 00:22:58.819 --> 00:23:02.380 advisor and someone who's not putting the best 00:23:02.380 --> 00:23:06.799 interests of the community first, and they're 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:10.039 going to continue to face that challenge. And 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:12.900 as you said, the Canadian banking industry, and 00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:17.140 particularly under the Trustee Act, and the rules 00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:20.200 for regulating as a trust company in Canada are 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:23.000 very stringent. They're cautious, rightfully 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:27.880 so, I think. They may come. They may try to come. 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:29.960 They will have a lot of regulatory and legal 00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:32.920 hurdles to jump through before there's a new 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:35.279 trust company on the block. But we've seen new 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.319 trust companies in the past couple of years, 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:40.400 which we view as positive developments. First 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.420 Nations Bank of Canada, pretty recently, and 00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:45.680 if you think about how long trusts have existed, 00:23:45.859 --> 00:23:48.200 fairly recently in the last couple of years, 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.119 obtained their trust company license. So new 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.960 players do come to market, for sure. And that 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:55.779 gives clients greater choice. We hope they still 00:23:55.779 --> 00:23:58.579 choose us. Jamie, you were in London for the 00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:01.440 Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit, the second 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:04.880 annual. And I'd be just interested to see ABC 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.119 again. We're a big supporter and you've been 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.740 with us since day one. And we very much appreciate 00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:15.339 that support from Wayne Lee and Lisa Wright. 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:19.779 It's been a big, big help to us. But you attended 00:24:19.779 --> 00:24:21.799 for the first time and what were some of your 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:25.660 impressions? I thought it was a fantastic day 00:24:25.660 --> 00:24:29.980 at the summit. The conversations that were being 00:24:29.980 --> 00:24:34.539 had by the panelists, the speakers, really top 00:24:34.539 --> 00:24:37.160 notch. These folks are all experts in their field. 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:41.299 And whether that's being an expert at the community 00:24:41.299 --> 00:24:45.319 level in terms of understanding the needs and 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.480 the vision for Indigenous communities across 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:51.099 Canada. Some of the Indigenous leadership and 00:24:51.099 --> 00:24:53.460 attendants shared their stories around what their 00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:56.400 communities have done, are doing, particularly 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:01.079 on the partnership side, in order to bring their 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:04.319 vision for their economic future of their communities 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.190 to life. And then, of course, we heard from a 00:25:07.190 --> 00:25:09.390 number of industry professionals who have dedicated 00:25:09.390 --> 00:25:12.430 their careers to supporting the advancement of 00:25:12.430 --> 00:25:15.849 Indigenous communities in the economy, which 00:25:15.849 --> 00:25:19.069 now we sort of trendily call economic reconciliation. 00:25:19.369 --> 00:25:22.190 I think some of us were working on these issues 00:25:22.190 --> 00:25:26.029 before it was trendy and before we started breaking 00:25:26.029 --> 00:25:30.509 the word reconciliation into multiple parts and 00:25:30.509 --> 00:25:34.250 dissecting it. I'm a business person through 00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:36.369 and through at the end of the day. When I practiced 00:25:36.369 --> 00:25:39.730 law, it was primarily on the corporate side, 00:25:39.950 --> 00:25:43.769 working to advance the economic self -sufficiency 00:25:43.769 --> 00:25:47.349 and wealth of Indigenous communities. And now 00:25:47.349 --> 00:25:49.630 on the banking side, I get to continue that work. 00:25:49.829 --> 00:25:53.390 And I do think it is critically important for 00:25:53.390 --> 00:25:56.470 reconciliation, for there to be a huge focus 00:25:56.470 --> 00:26:00.599 on meaningful economic participation for Indigenous 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.720 communities in Canada. Because until there's 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.059 wealth in our communities, our leadership will 00:26:07.059 --> 00:26:10.160 continue to struggle to manage poverty. And so 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.240 I would like to see our communities managing 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.299 wealth in the very near future. And some of them 00:26:14.299 --> 00:26:16.980 already are. Yes. And I think that, I mean, it's 00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:20.579 key for the economy as a whole. It's like anywhere. 00:26:20.619 --> 00:26:24.180 If part of your population is living in poverty, 00:26:25.489 --> 00:26:28.289 your economy is not going to be productive as 00:26:28.289 --> 00:26:30.309 it could be. It's not going to realize its full 00:26:30.309 --> 00:26:33.589 potential. We've seen this with the economic 00:26:33.589 --> 00:26:37.049 participation of women in societies. And so this 00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:39.789 is a mill around the neck. Of course, for an 00:26:39.789 --> 00:26:42.349 indigenous person in poverty, whoever's in poverty, 00:26:42.490 --> 00:26:45.690 it's absolutely... All -consuming. It's all -consuming. 00:26:46.190 --> 00:26:48.809 But on a larger level, in terms of getting the 00:26:48.809 --> 00:26:50.789 economy to reach its full economic potential, 00:26:51.069 --> 00:26:55.470 it is so important. To address that. So all Canadians 00:26:55.470 --> 00:26:58.309 and anybody looking at investing in Canada should 00:26:58.309 --> 00:27:00.910 be saying, wow, that is great because they're 00:27:00.910 --> 00:27:03.289 going to address that. That's going to just drive 00:27:03.289 --> 00:27:06.490 that economy at a higher level. I think we heard 00:27:06.490 --> 00:27:10.529 that many times at the summit, quite a few number 00:27:10.529 --> 00:27:13.829 of speakers made that point specifically that 00:27:13.829 --> 00:27:17.150 a rising tide floats all boats. And that means 00:27:17.150 --> 00:27:20.650 that if we can raise up Indigenous people and... 00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:23.740 the Indigenous economy in Canada, it's to the 00:27:23.740 --> 00:27:26.119 benefit of all Canadians and the world, frankly. 00:27:26.299 --> 00:27:29.519 Yes. And we're in the heart of one of the great 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:33.859 financial centers of the world in London. And 00:27:33.859 --> 00:27:36.160 we're talking about economic reconciliation. 00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:39.039 There are other forms of reconciliation, but 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.799 you can only do so much. And I personally believe 00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:46.599 that with economic development... and wealth, 00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:52.079 other benefits than flow and general standard 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:55.980 of living and wellness. My brother has been involved 00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:59.019 in the Indigenous sport and wellness community 00:27:59.019 --> 00:28:06.740 across Canada. It starts with wealth when it's 00:28:06.740 --> 00:28:09.339 done properly and economic development and then 00:28:09.339 --> 00:28:13.920 all those other benefits hopefully flow. Agreed. 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.759 And we're seeing it. It's an incredibly interesting 00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:20.839 time. It's a great time to be an Indigenous person 00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:23.500 in Canada, and I'm proud to be able to say that. 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.920 That was so often not the case for our ancestors, 00:28:28.220 --> 00:28:31.380 even our parents, our grandparents. But I watch... 00:28:33.130 --> 00:28:35.029 Things like the Cheekbone Beauty commercials 00:28:35.029 --> 00:28:38.250 that are on mainstream television now. I've met 00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:40.269 Jen Harper a number of times. She's fantastic. 00:28:40.789 --> 00:28:45.730 Her products are sold in Sephora. There's reason 00:28:45.730 --> 00:28:49.069 to be hopeful. A lot is changing. I think just 00:28:49.069 --> 00:28:51.190 with our, so a couple of points, just with our 00:28:51.190 --> 00:28:53.230 podcast, because we're meeting business leaders, 00:28:53.450 --> 00:28:56.369 professional services leaders, such as yourself, 00:28:56.769 --> 00:29:00.730 who are Indigenous. It's secondary to the conversation. 00:29:00.789 --> 00:29:03.569 It's not, oh, look, we have an... indigenous 00:29:03.569 --> 00:29:07.049 leader rob rob yourself because you're that generation 00:29:07.049 --> 00:29:13.029 who has participated now fully and are using 00:29:13.029 --> 00:29:16.910 your networks and learnings etc etc to raise 00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:19.069 up the rest of the indigenous people and this 00:29:19.069 --> 00:29:22.140 wouldn't take place even 20 years ago No, not 00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:24.859 even 10 years ago. I don't think. I mean, the 00:29:24.859 --> 00:29:28.259 speed at which things are moving is really, really 00:29:28.259 --> 00:29:29.759 impressive. And that would have been exciting. 00:29:29.859 --> 00:29:32.440 Oh, look who we have on. It's a lawyer who happens 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:34.119 to be Indigenous. This doesn't happen anymore, 00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:37.660 which is great. And some industries, I think, 00:29:37.660 --> 00:29:39.900 are doing better than others. The legal profession, 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:42.819 I jokingly say that you can't swing a stick without 00:29:42.819 --> 00:29:44.920 hitting an Indigenous lawyer these days, which 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:47.779 is great. That is a wonderful thing to be able 00:29:47.779 --> 00:29:52.619 to say. And it wasn't the case. the case because 00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:57.799 when it became legal for Indigenous people to 00:29:57.799 --> 00:29:59.759 go to post -secondary and to go to law school 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.420 and to practice law in Canada, Indigenous leadership 00:30:03.420 --> 00:30:06.839 went back to their communities and said, we have 00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:10.140 rights that we need to advance and enforce against 00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:13.579 the Crown, and our own people need to take up 00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:16.819 these new tools and educate themselves so that 00:30:16.819 --> 00:30:21.210 we have our own lawyers to fight for us. And 00:30:21.210 --> 00:30:25.190 we're in the banking and finance industry, woefully 00:30:25.190 --> 00:30:29.329 unrepresented as Indigenous people. And my plea 00:30:29.329 --> 00:30:31.990 that I make every time I speak in a public forum 00:30:31.990 --> 00:30:35.849 is to ask our leadership to go back into their 00:30:35.849 --> 00:30:39.190 communities, make that same plea that we did 00:30:39.190 --> 00:30:42.390 for lawyers, but for banking and finance expertise. 00:30:42.690 --> 00:30:46.509 There are so many wonderful... and impactful 00:30:46.509 --> 00:30:50.390 careers available in the banking and finance 00:30:50.390 --> 00:30:53.450 industry that our young people don't even realize 00:30:53.450 --> 00:30:56.470 are available. Not just available to them, we 00:30:56.470 --> 00:31:00.829 want them. I will take anyone that you can give 00:31:00.829 --> 00:31:05.500 me and... They don't need to specialize in servicing 00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:08.680 Indigenous clients. We're past that. It's not 00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:12.539 the time to hire one Indigenous person and put 00:31:12.539 --> 00:31:14.480 them in charge of your Indigenous clients or 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.299 your Indigenous business. And I say that as the 00:31:16.299 --> 00:31:18.279 Indigenous person in charge of Indigenous business 00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.000 at CIBC. But that's my choice. I choose to do 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.440 this. I want to see Indigenous people on our 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:27.059 capital markets team. I want to see Indigenous 00:31:27.059 --> 00:31:29.599 people in our HR department, in our legal department, 00:31:29.859 --> 00:31:34.440 in our tech department. So many jobs at the bank, 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.240 at every large financial institution. And Indigenous 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:41.279 people shouldn't be pigeonholed into, oh, you're 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.519 Indigenous? Here, you can go work on our Indigenous 00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:45.880 markets team. No, we want you on the marketing 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.119 team. We want you on every team that we have 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.299 at the bank. Yes, yes. And I think the kudos 00:31:52.299 --> 00:31:56.680 to the banks like CIBC and National Bank of Canada 00:31:56.680 --> 00:32:01.910 and Scotiabank who have been sponsors. for the 00:32:01.910 --> 00:32:07.250 summit over here in the Square Mile. And that's 00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:09.829 also a give back and support for the Indigenous 00:32:09.829 --> 00:32:13.029 people and the businesses because they're going 00:32:13.029 --> 00:32:14.450 to connect them with other people in capital 00:32:14.450 --> 00:32:17.109 markets. The business isn't all going to come 00:32:17.109 --> 00:32:20.890 to the Canadian banks, but they recognize this 00:32:20.890 --> 00:32:25.670 is how they have to serve the client base. And 00:32:25.670 --> 00:32:27.329 all Canadians by getting out here. Absolutely. 00:32:27.589 --> 00:32:29.589 And we talk about serving. CWC, you're doing 00:32:29.589 --> 00:32:32.849 more than a trust business. Do you want to mention 00:32:32.849 --> 00:32:36.569 some of the other streams you've got? I know 00:32:36.569 --> 00:32:39.789 Longhouse, there was a relationship agreement 00:32:39.789 --> 00:32:43.130 just announced recently with Longhouse Capital, 00:32:43.250 --> 00:32:47.309 who are a brand new private equity firm looking 00:32:47.309 --> 00:32:51.160 to... raise money and invest in Indigenous communities, 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.200 and CIBC is going to support that initiative. 00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:56.299 But what else is going on? We're really proud 00:32:56.299 --> 00:32:59.480 of that initiative that we've entered into with 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:03.299 Longhouse Capital. I think it takes participation 00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:07.680 from different service providers across the market. 00:33:08.190 --> 00:33:10.170 in order to fully service the needs of Indigenous 00:33:10.170 --> 00:33:13.569 people. And we don't ever pretend to be everything 00:33:13.569 --> 00:33:17.069 that that demographic needs. And so these partnerships 00:33:17.069 --> 00:33:19.789 are a huge part of how we can make sure that 00:33:19.789 --> 00:33:22.069 those services are available and being delivered 00:33:22.069 --> 00:33:25.450 in an equitable way to Indigenous communities. 00:33:25.789 --> 00:33:28.029 And so we're really proud of the work that Longhouse 00:33:28.029 --> 00:33:31.269 is doing and our partnership with them. Of course, 00:33:31.289 --> 00:33:35.690 we also have a number of other initiatives that... 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:40.079 We advance outside of the business. I believe 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:42.700 in leading with business. I think primarily we're 00:33:42.700 --> 00:33:45.720 a financial services firm, that the best thing 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:48.240 that we can do to advance economic reconciliation 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.880 is to look at how we provide financial products 00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:53.839 and services and whether it works for Indigenous 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.460 communities. And if we can figure that out, we're 00:33:57.460 --> 00:34:00.579 moving in the right direction. But there are 00:34:00.579 --> 00:34:02.640 other issues that need to be addressed. Financial 00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:05.440 literacy, for example. We have, like most banks, 00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.519 a huge commitment to increasing financial literacy 00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:11.659 and capacity at all levels in the Indigenous 00:34:11.659 --> 00:34:14.099 community, whether that's financial literacy 00:34:14.099 --> 00:34:17.099 for young people who maybe have never had to 00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:19.260 budget before or manage their first credit card. 00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:22.440 whether it's financial literacy training at more 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.059 of a professional level for the leadership in 00:34:25.059 --> 00:34:27.760 First Nations communities. Maybe it's the finance 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.099 office at the band. Maybe it's financial literacy 00:34:31.099 --> 00:34:35.480 for elders who are living on a fixed income with 00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:38.880 the rising costs of everything, might be struggling 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.719 to budget. The needs are different. The education 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.940 that is needed is also different. And of course, 00:34:45.940 --> 00:34:48.650 we have initiatives on recruitment. As I just 00:34:48.650 --> 00:34:52.329 mentioned, it's a passion for me. I take it as 00:34:52.329 --> 00:34:59.329 a personal commitment to see an increase in the 00:34:59.329 --> 00:35:01.349 number of Indigenous people that we have on our 00:35:01.349 --> 00:35:05.730 team. At CIBC, we support a number of scholarships 00:35:05.730 --> 00:35:09.050 and bursaries specifically for Indigenous students 00:35:09.050 --> 00:35:11.829 in an effort to increase. our attractiveness, 00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:14.969 both as an industry and as a specific employer 00:35:14.969 --> 00:35:17.650 at CIBC. And I think we're doing great things. 00:35:17.969 --> 00:35:20.610 I do. But there's more work to be done. There's 00:35:20.610 --> 00:35:23.429 always more work to be done. Great initiatives. 00:35:23.889 --> 00:35:26.130 Jamie Lickers, great to see you back in London. 00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:30.289 And thank you again for yours and CIBC's support 00:35:30.289 --> 00:35:33.269 of our summit. It was great to talk to you. We 00:35:33.269 --> 00:35:35.650 could have gone on, but we're almost out of time. 00:35:35.710 --> 00:35:37.969 So we just want to thank you again. Thank you. 00:35:38.969 --> 00:35:41.130 Thank you. Thank you very much. It's great to 00:35:41.130 --> 00:35:43.989 meet you at the summit and opportunity to speak 00:35:43.989 --> 00:35:45.570 to you again. There's a lot of exciting things 00:35:45.570 --> 00:35:49.710 that are going and you've crossed over from legal 00:35:49.710 --> 00:35:54.449 to financial services. Wow. Well, we'll continue 00:35:54.449 --> 00:35:56.869 the conversation next year. Super. Thank you. 00:35:56.929 --> 00:35:59.570 Thank you, guys. Thank you to Jamie Lickers for 00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:02.130 sharing her insights with us. And thank you for 00:36:02.130 --> 00:36:04.809 viewing and listening. Be sure to share, subscribe 00:36:04.809 --> 00:36:07.369 and leave a review on your favorite podcast channel. 00:36:07.900 --> 00:36:10.400 Thanks for listening to Drum Beats. Until next 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:10.699 time.