Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brandt
and I are joined today by Tiffany Eckert -Merritt,
President of Yukon First Nation Chamber of Commerce,
and Les Wilson, Director of Yukon First Nation
Chamber of Commerce. We discussed the importance
of Indigenous partnerships in building successful
businesses, with a particular focus on how Kwanlin
Dun First Nation is unlocking new economic opportunities.
A key highlight of the conversation was the plan
for purchasing Northwest Tel. It's expected to
become the largest telecommunications company
worldwide with full Indigenous ownership. Well,
today we're very fortunate to have two special
guests from Yukon. Welcome back to London. Tiffany
Eckert Merritt and Les Wilson. Mark, it's a real
privilege to have guests from as far away as
Yukon. Sure is. The farthest, most reach of Canada,
right? Yukon, which at one point was in everyone's
mind 100 or 150 years ago when there was a gold
rush. And then a lot of times people forget about
it. But it comes back in the news and it's...
Yukon's becoming more and more important in Canadian
economic development and the opportunities that
prevents. And you have also a border with America.
So it's not in the Yukon. It's not your southern
neighbor. It's your... Our next door neighbor.
Our next door neighbor. And Tiffany, we first
met, you were in London last year with a big
delegation from UConn. But why don't you introduce
yourself and your background, your community,
and what you're... Yeah, thank you so much. Thank
you, Rob and Mark, for inviting us here today.
Super honored to be back in London. I came last
year in June with the Premier of Yukon, Deputy
Premier, and a bunch of Yukon chiefs. And we
were starting the conversation about the importance
of having relationships between Yukon First Nations
and London and businesses in the UK specifically.
And so this is a follow -up to that visit. And
the government has been very... great partners
for us, Yukon government, in encouraging us to
reach out and branch and support and to start
to continue the conversations with businesses
in the UK and Yukon First Nations. So thank you.
My name is Tiffany Eckert -Murray. I'm the president
of the Yukon First Nation Chamber of Commerce.
I'm the chief operating officer for my First
Nations Development Corporation. Dadagai Development
Corporation is where I hang my hat during the
day. And I'm a citizen of the Ta 'an Kwachon
Council, which is one of the smallest First Nations
in Yukon. And I'm super honored and thrilled
to be here. Thank you. Les? Tell us a bit about
your community, where you're from, what you do.
Well, I'm currently the Senior Economic Development
Advisor for the First Nation, or the government
that I happen to be a citizen of, of the Yukon
Territory, the Kwanlin Dun First Nation. I've
been in that role for a considerable amount of
time, and I have been working with my First Nation
or the government for actually several decades.
In fact, long before we actually ratified the
agreement, one of my first occupations after
post -secondary education was really in the land
use. planning department. A very small First
Nation at that time. I think there was probably
in the early 90s, late 80s, we're looking at
maybe 13 or 14 individuals in the administration
of the First Nation. It has now grown to well
over 100 individuals. In fact, I think there's,
I believe, 13 institutional buildings inside
our little tiny First Nation in Whitehorse. So
it's grown considerably, right? And is that where
your First Nation is, right? Right in the dead
center. That's right in the capital of the Whitehorse,
Yukon Territory. So I'm a citizen. I was born
and raised in the Yukon Territory and left really
just for school. Yes. Wow. Yeah. He's also a
assistant on the board for the Econversation
Chamber of Commerce as well. That's right. Very
good. When you were at the summit, I'm not sure
if you met, we had a delegate from Sweden. I
miss the Sweden delegate. That's too bad because
you're both really northerners, right? Most Canadians
live 90 % along the southern border. Below 60,
I think is what they got. We're north of 60.
It depends where you are in the country, so you
say below 60, right? Yeah. true Northern representation
of what Canada is about. And I think when we're
all at the summit, most Canadians don't understand
the North. So I think also just this conversation
we're having today will be eye -opening not only
for our UK audience. It's not just the UK, actually.
I think you're right. A lot of the world forgets
about the North, and it's a big mystery for a
lot of folks because if you really think about
it, we're quite young in inception. The gold
rush came in 1897 or 1898, and so we are still
dealing with a lot of things that a lot of people
have been dealing with for a lot longer. It's
still really new. It's still a big mystery. And
people can, they seem to always get mixed up
between Whitehorse and Yellowknife. I'll never
understand why they get the two mixed up, but
maybe they're both colors. I'm not entirely sure,
but there's the amount of stories I've heard
about people intending to move to Whitehorse,
but they wound up in Yellowknife and they wound
up staying. It's incredible. I've had more than
my fair share of those stories. So, but you can't
go wrong. North is, the North is the most beautiful
place. I'm so, I'm so thankful. And I was a military
brat. Traveled around Canada for a lot of my
dad's when he served in the military. And so
we came back to the north and it's the best place
to live. I'm pretty thankful to live there every
day. Can you tell us the difference between Whitehorse
and Yellowknife? Everybody knows where they're
going, if they're booking a trip, that they've
booked it to the right spot. We'd love to tell
the difference. Actually, the easiest way is
if you're flying Air North. Air North will bring
you right to Whitehorse. So if you can go on
Canadian North, which probably wasn't going to
help anyone, but Canadian North will bring you
right to Yellowknife and Air North, which is
our local Yukon airline, owned by 49 % of a Yukon
First Nation, Funtut Gwich 'in. And they're our
partners. They're partners. And Yellowknife is
the capital of Northwest Territories. And Whitehorse
is the capital of Yukon. We're neighbors with
Yellowknife, but we also have neighbors to the
west of us is Alaska. So we have a really unique
relationship there. And south of us is BC and
Alberta. So we kind of share borders all over.
And then the north is the true Arctic. Well,
I know the difference. I've been to Yellowknife.
I haven't been to Whitehorse yet. But my daughter
taught for a couple of years near Yellowknife.
And when I say near, I think it was a six -hour
drive after you got to Yellowknife to get to
where she was. That is close. That is near, for
sure. It's only in the UK that's a day journey.
But I'm looking forward to getting to Whitehorse
for the first time. at the upcoming Arctic Indigenous
Investment Conference. Maybe you can tell us
a little bit about what to expect. For sure.
So May 5th to 7th, 2025 in Whitehorse, Yukon,
we are having our eighth annual Arctic Indigenous
Investment Conference. And so the Yukon First
Nation Chamber of Commerce has been hosting that
for the past eight years. And it's a great way
to talk about the success stories of the North.
So we'll bring in folks from businesses from
Northwest Territories, Nunavut and other Northern.
We actually, this year, we have folks coming
over from Iceland to come and talk about Indigenous
businesses in the North. So Rob will be joining
us and giving a panel for that. And we're super
excited to welcome you North. No, I can't wait
to get there. I'll probably talk about an international
perspective and there's more and more interest
and focus. We talked about Yukon in the north
being ignored by a lot of the population, but
no longer, I don't think. There's lots of reasons
why people are paying a lot of attention to the
north, geopolitical and economic as well. in
the spotlight now, whether you want it or not.
I'm envious that you're getting to go to Whitehorse.
We'll have to change. I get the next trip. Well,
it's a special time. May and June is actually
really a very warm month of the year. A lot of
people that come up, they actually find that
it's an absolutely beautiful place. Come back
in six months, okay, if you want to experience
the north. Minus 50, minus 55. Well, I was born
on the prairies, but I think... Minus 55 is even
cold. You get to that level, though, when it's
just cold, it doesn't matter. You know, what's
funny, though, is that minus 55, Whitehorse,
it's cold. It sounds cold, and it is. But minus
20 in Ontario is actually, I find, a lot colder.
I agree. It's a wet cold down south. And it goes
right to your bones, right? Yes. And in the north,
I can't speak for old crew or anything, but like
northern us. But in Whitehorse, it's one of the
driest places in Canada. So it's a different
type of cold. So, you know, like it takes your
breath away a little bit sometimes, but at least
it doesn't go to your bones. Some of the largest
cities in the south, like Edmonton or Vancouver,
they basically shut down almost immediately after
maybe minus 25 or minus 30. Right. Not in the
Yukon. It just takes a little longer to warm
up your truck to get to work. Schools don't close
and we don't have cold weather days in Whitehorse.
They just keep going. Well, I can't wait to get
there. And it'll be like near no darkness at
that point in time in May. So there won't, it'll
be about 20 hour daylight. So not daylight, like
it does get a little bit, it's a unique experience.
So I'm very excited for you to see it firsthand
and to experience. Like 20 -hour days. Yeah,
no, and I'm looking forward to meeting the businesses
and the First Nations people who are up there
doing business and learning more about what's
going on there. I mean, a couple of things in
the news. First, I guess on the positive side,
there's a mine, a copper mine, Minto Mine, and
it looks like it's had a difficult history, but
the Indigenous communities are in the process
of buying it. Your guys' summit actually talks
about the importance of working in partnerships.
And one of the speakers was talking about how
when you have First Nation partners or Indigenous
partners, it's a lot more successful. And so
Minto will tell that story. And so the message
that's talking about the Canadian Indigenous
Investment Summit, about working in partnership
with businesses and Indigenous businesses specifically,
will grant a lot of success. That will be the
success of Minto because... while it will impact
the community that they're in, they are now purchased
and owners of that mine. And that is the truest
form of consent. And I believe that's actually
what Mark Podolsky was speaking about. And that
really reinforced that message to me. And so
I'm very excited for that First Nation to purchase
that mine. I think Selkirk. is the one who purchased
it. Yeah, Selkirk First Nation. And it's such
a small First Nation, but the history that is
in that community, if you look at the books and
you learn about the Yukon First Nation history,
Selkirk is a real landing ground for a lot of
important trade routes. And so the fact that
a business that is based in their traditional
territory, they now own a mine. is incredibly
important to me. And it'll speak to that quite
a bit. So Minto is a great story. It shows the
community can do something. It shows also, it
reiterates the same message that my grandfather
has been talking about since 1973, about how
UConn First Nation businesses, our UConn First
Nations want to be part of the businesses. They
want to be part of that conversation. And so
again, it reiterates that same message is that
we were not opposed to it. We do have... We do
want to be involved in it because if we don't,
stuff like what happens at Victoria Gold is what
the negative impact of that will be. For some
of our listeners, can you explain what went on
with Victoria Gold? So Victoria Gold is a gold
mine that is in Yukon. It is about five hours
north. east of Whitehorse. It's on the traditional
territory of the Nacho Nayak Dun First Nation.
And incredible, it's actually the hottest and
coldest spot. So when it's hot in the summertime,
it's really hot. And when it's colder in winter,
it's really cold. So it's the heart of Yukon.
And there was a Victoria gold mine that was operations
there and they were producing gold. And there
was, due to some regulatory oversight, there
was some of the, they have leech pads. And so
when they're, Doing the mining, the leaching
was leaking into the water. And so it is a catastrophic
incident because fish is our life in the north.
It started poisoning the water, essentially.
So the government shut down right away and stopped
operation of the mine. And it's been devastating
to that community for sure. And how long has
the mine been shut down now? I believe two years.
It's still in caretaker mode right now. So it
means that there is still workers that go in.
There still is economy. There still is some operations
happening up there, but it's on a very small
scale. And they're trying to make sure that there's
no further damage to the water. And they're doing
the best they can. And they're working with the
Nacho Neck and First Nation to try and... fix
and make sure this never happens again because
again you know like there's a lot of tremendous
opportunities that came from that mine with that
community but there also is a lot of negative
things and that's you know that's always going
to be the struggle that indigenous people have
with these type of businesses is that we really
want it to happen we really believe in investment
in the north but we also this is something and
what forgets what people forget about is that
when the mines do close and when they shut down
people go back home but this is our home we we
have nowhere else to go back to right so it's
an impact that we have to live with forever and
what about the impact on the water is there a
degree of recovery going on is it is it returning
or just the destruction was No, they were able
to get it before it got cyanide. It was alarming,
but it wasn't to the point where everything's
killed off right now. So they're monitoring it
right now to make sure that things are not going
to... hurt anymore, but there is definitely,
there still is some cyanide showing up in the
water. So no cyanide is ever a really good thing.
But they are constantly trying to repair that
right now. So government is working with the
First Nation to make sure that happens. And so
what's been really good about that is that, again,
it reminds government that it's important to
approve these businesses, these operations happening
in the North and exploration. But it also talks
about how it's important to involve the First
Nation because, again, it's our community that
we have to live with for the rest of our life.
And so ensuring that that chief and that nation
and those community members are a part of that
conversation is integrally important. But I think
from the project you're talking about that's
coming on stream, it demonstrates once again,
it's a myth that the Indigenous peoples are not
supporting of development because there has been
a catastrophic incident. Everyone everywhere
would say that's absolutely terrible, but you're
just trying to apply those learnings to new initiatives
and new developments. Yeah, lessons learned,
right? Yes. And so how to mitigate it. I came
with me, but I brought today with you guys is
a book called Together Today for a Children Tomorrow.
So back in 1973, my grandfather, Elijah Smith,
and other Yukon chiefs, they were not allowed
to meet. And so they would have these underground
rodeos. And so they would have rodeos. And at
these rodeos, they would have meetings where
they talk about what their vision was for the
future and for their children and grandchildren.
And so they start talking. about self -government.
And so I brought for you guys the copies of Together
Today for Children Tomorrow. And they talk about
how they never have been opposed to development,
but they just have to be part of that conversation.
And so I brought this book with me so that you
guys can just have the same words that I, it's
my mantra, it's my Bible, it's what I live, and
it's kind of my guidepost for... for what I do
every day. Well, we'll read that with interest.
And when you say they weren't allowed to meet,
are you referring to the old Indian Act restriction
that said something like no more than two Indians
could meet to discuss their rights under the
Indian Act? Yeah. And so it was effectively a
way of saying no dissent, no groups can get together
to discuss. The Indian Act and what they might
want to do about it to improve it. It also barred
lawyers from advising Indians on their rights
under the Indian Act. You could be disbarred
if you were caught giving advice, legal advice
to Indians without getting the permission of
the local agent. Yeah, those are... Just crazy.
Yeah. I can't even believe I live in the same
lifetime where that happened, right? Things like
going to the store. I can't even believe that
I'm living in the same. life where you actually
had to ask for that permission and I can't even
believe that I live in the same lifetime where
my mom was allowed to vote because she wasn't
a human being or that my grandfather who had
to give up his status of as being an Indian so
he can go fight in the very same war as we celebrate
Vimy and the and and that you know like it's
just it it blows my mind and then when all the
Canadian soldiers came back they were um they
were Rightfully so, given the dues and support
from the Canadian government. But when Yukon
Indian veterans came back, they were given $300
on a couch. That was their send -off. Thanks
for streaming your country. Enjoy your couch,
right? So it's horrifying. That's crazy in the
Indian Act. So most of our audience will have
not heard that story. The Indian Act is still
on the books, right? These aspects of it were
eliminated. 10 years, 20, 30? No, a little bit
longer than that in these cases. I think the
right to vote came in 19, well, there's an interesting
story about the right to vote because it was
originally Indigenous people, I think, who owned
property had a right to vote, talking about when
Canada was first formed. Yes. 1867. And then
could have been just men. No, I think even women
had. But it was taken away because after the
first election, when there was in one of the
particular writings, Indigenous people voted
en masse for a particular candidate, the government
at the time decided we need to amend that act
because we're seeing them having factual political
power. So they immediately amended the act for
the next election to amend the definition of
person to... be any human being other than an
Indian. And so that was the way it was until
1960. I was born after 1960, but that's just
an absolute appalling. And it's not what people
associate with Canada. And part of the problem
has been that Canada has had this image of, oh,
everything in Canada is nice, but we've all learned.
especially through the Truth and Reconciliation
Committee, that there are all these black marks
that need to be addressed. But coming back, the
Indian Act still exists and is still on the books,
and it's still challenging for the Indigenous
people to get all their titles and rights, et
cetera, that other Canadians have and don't think
twice. We heard a lot about the summit, people
just being able to get a mortgage, and you can't.
That is very powerful. I look forward to reading
the book. The one line in there that jumps out
for me, and I always think about it, is history
is to be learned from and not lived in. And so
while it's important to learn the history and
talk about reconciliation, it's also important
not to live in it and to move on. And so honoring
my grandfather's vision is why we're here today,
for me anyway, is why it's really important to
me that we... Remember, know the history, is
to know who you are, know where you come from,
but also learn from it and move on. So I'm so
grateful to live, while able to live in the same
lifetime where terrible things have happened,
unspeakable things, but also live in a time where
it's now not a bad thing, like not as bad. It's
still pretty harrowing how there is a lot of
racism still. Yukon First Nation, Yukon government
recently brought in the Yukon First Nation procurement
policy. And so what that means is that they've
amended their law that it has to, it encourages
Yukon First Nation businesses to participate
in the economy. And our premier has always been
really forward thinking in Yukon First Nations.
And so I really am thankful for Premier Pillai.
So they amended the act to include, to encourage
UConn First Nation businesses with this procurement
policy. And when we were going through that about
five years ago, the creation of the policy, the
amount of businesses that were just terrible
things they were saying, it's still, even though
we're so far beyond that, we're living in an
age of reconciliation, there's still a lot of
fear in there. And so as we've lived the procurement
policy now for a few years, it's changed the
conversation from... There's a company called
Castle Rock and White Horse, and it's owned by
First Nation and Champagne Ajak, Dakota Capital
Investments. And the companies were actually
saying the Dakota effect is what they were calling
the procurement policy, and they were afraid
that Dakota was going to control every bid that
government put out. But it hasn't done that.
So a lot of fear -mongering was happening by
businesses, like non -Indigenous businesses in
the Yukon. But now living in the policy, it's
changed that. And there isn't the Dakota effect
as much out there anymore. It's now working together.
And I think Qualen Dunn and Les has worked with
his development corporation that he worked for.
They've done a lot of really wonderful things
with partnerships and showed. how they've been
able to progress so far. Our First Nations, I
think your First Nations signed their final agreement
in 19, in 2000. 2005. 2005. We signed ours in
2002. But what Les' First Nation has been able
to do with people like Les working there. They've
been able to advance their First Nation tremendously.
And I'm super envious of all the work that Les
has done with his development corporation because
they've really embraced the spirit and intent
of the procurement policy and been able to do
remarkable things. Great. Les, do you want to
speak a little bit about that? Well, I'd like
to think that some of the stuff that Kuala Lumpur
has been doing and some of the progressive projects
that the First Nation has, and of course its
corporation, all stems from that very powerful
document that's sitting right in front of Tiffany
there. It's an amazing document to gather today
for our children tomorrow. That really speaks
to me, essentially. That was Valentine's Day,
1973. I was three years old, right? And the children
that they're talking about is me, specifically,
right? I am now... I would say, I suspect a leader
in the First Nation. But some of the projects
that we've managed to be able to accomplish was
really trying to unlock the economic potential
of Kwanli Dun lands and essentially settlement
land throughout the Yukon Territory. Typically
in Western Canada, and I think all over Canada,
because it's Indian land or Indian dirt, it's
typically a discount. It's essentially, it's
not at market price. That was some of the big...
uphill hurdles that we've been really trying
to embrace and trying to encourage the general
public that there's no difference. This dirt
is just the same as the other dirt. Sorry, are
you talking about the land or topsoil? No, just
First Nation land in itself with respect to the
simple land. It's just the same. Now, I suppose
a good proxy is our gravel pit. We had a couple
of gravel pits. While some of the other First
Nations were arguing and negotiating for precious
gems and gold, our First Nation was actually
looking for gravel pits from the north and south
of town. We knew even back then, long before
we ratified the agreement during the negotiations,
that if development was going to happen in the
capital, that we were going to need dirt in order
to do that. So that's what we're up to right
now. That particular lease, two and five. in
the center of Whitehorse, has actually turned
into a gold mine. And it's the lifeblood of our
First Nation corporation to allow them to go
ahead and do some of the projects that we've
actually been very successful. And again, it's
really unlocking the economic potential of Kwanlin
and lands, in particular Northwest Tel. We were
talking about that earlier. I don't believe our
corporation was actually involved in some of
the investments at Ta 'an. But we did manage
to convince the Northwest Hell to actually, they
were moving their headquarters from Yellowknife
over to Whitehorse, and they needed a new office.
So they know the difference between Yellowknife
and Whitehorse, right? I suppose so. I suspect
they do now. In that Northwest Hell deal, maybe
you want to talk a little bit about it. It's
been in the news. And what is the status? It's
a, again, Bell Canada selling to a number of
Indigenous communities in there. their northern
counterpart to business yeah so the 60 north
unity is the vehicle and what it is is it's then
there's four uh the three out of the four nations
that represent nunavut and then i believe there's
127 in northwest territories like 127 Indigenous
groups in Northwest Territories is remarkable.
And then 14 Yukon First Nations have the opportunity
to, they form 60 North Unity. And we have our
organization that represents Yukon. And so the
three territories came together and we negotiated
with Bell to purchase Northwest Health to acquire
it because before the president was elected,
we recognized the importance of communications
in the North and how that's our lifeline. That's
our blood and our connection to the rest of the
world. And two years ago, we lost connection
to the world for 24 hours. I don't know if you
remember that. I do. I'm sure you do. But we
couldn't even use our debit cards. You couldn't
buy gas. You couldn't buy water. You couldn't
buy anything because we lost our network connections.
It was the forest fires in Fort Nelson that caused
that to go down. So it was important to us that
we recognize how that's our one key and tie to
the South. we purchased, we offered to purchase
Northwest Hill for a billion dollars. And we
wanted to guarantee that the jobs would stay
in the North, that decisions that are made that
affect the North are now made in the North. And
so that's the deal. That's the Northwest Hill
deal. It's not the first time that Indigenous
organizations have come together to purchase
Clearwater, which was giving the talk at the
Indigenous Summit. That was also a group of Indigenous
organizations coming together to purchase something
for their community. And so Northwest Tell is
another reiteration of that same concept and
idea about coming together for a greater cause
to purchase something that's going to affect
our communities for the rest of our lives. And
so where the deal is at right now is that we
have a share purchase agreement, we've signed
it, and we are just in the back and forth negotiation
stages right now on locking in the financing
for it. And what's the size of that transaction?
One billion dollars. Yeah, a billion dollars.
Yeah, a billion dollars is the purchase price
for it. And at the summit, Rob was talking about
whether he – I remember him talking to Tabitha.
There was a panel he was on with Tabitha Bull,
Chief Derek Epp, and a few other folks. And he
was asking the question about $100 billion economy,
about the impact of Indigenous business in the
economy. And I remember him asking the panel,
do you think that's a real number? I dare to
say we're beyond $100 billion. And so we're shifting
that conversation now to beyond $100 billion.
That's what the Indigenous economy, that's what
our contribution is to that. And so Caroline
Hilton is something who's a woman from New Toronto
in BC. She just published her second book a short
while ago. And she talks about that, about beyond
$100 billion. And it's a very exciting time to
be alive. And so I was sitting in my seat saying,
yes, we're beyond that. That is great. Yeah.
And Les, you were at the summit too. And I think
that was your first time in London. What were
your impressions of the day? It was very impressive,
in fact, actually. I found some of the sessions
very informative. Some of the things that I've
learned, I didn't actually realize was actually
going on in Western Canada in terms of the LNG
projects. Again, I seem to be really focused
around what's happening in the Yukon Territory.
specifically around the community of Whitehorse
and the citizens of Kwanlin Dunn. But, you know,
some of the things that we've been talking about,
like, again, as I was mentioning that the Northwest
Health Deal, we weren't really a part of that.
I guess our focus is really on trying to, again,
develop Kwanlin Dunn lands. But we did manage
to convince Northwest Health to actually, we
built them a building, a 30 ,000 square foot,
brand new three -story office tower. And that's
their new headquarters now. That's actually situated
in the center of Whitehorse on Conland Unsettlement
Land, right? So that allows us to go and basically
reap the benefits of that parcel, right? Great.
Thank you for your time. It's great. I remember
when you came to Canada House, actually. And
that was my first connection with meeting people
from Yukon in a long time. So it was very good
that you were able to come earlier to the summit.
We appreciate it, both of you. And it's great
to have this conversation. I can't wait to read
the book. Thank you so much for having us. We're
super honored and thrilled to be here. And it's
because of our partnerships. And that was the
other message I did. I really heard loud and
clear, and I can't wait to talk about it at next
year's summit, hopefully, is that the key to
success for any business, no matter where they
are or who they are, is that partnerships. When
you work together, we can accomplish absolutely
anything. And that's the bigger message, I think.
And that we're not competing, we're complementing
each other. And it's a really wonderful time.
I'm really thankful to be able to participate
in that. And so thank Rob for inviting and thank
you, Mark, for hosting us. And look forward to
next year's summit. Absolutely. Tiffany and Les
Njelman, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Tiffany
Eckert -Merritt and Les Wilson for sharing their
insights with us. and thank you for viewing and
listening. Be sure to share, subscribe, and leave
a review on your favorite podcast channel. Mark
your calendars for the upcoming 2025 Summit taking
place on the 10th of April. Thanks for listening
to Drum Beats. Until next time.