Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
I'm Mark McNack and my co -host Robert Brandt
and I will discuss the highlights from today's
2025 Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit. We
will discuss powerful sessions covering topics
such as Indigenous economic sovereignty, capital
access for Indigenous projects, and infrastructure
development. Well, Mark, what a day it's been.
The second annual Canadian Indigenous Summit
is in the books. And from my perspective, it
couldn't have gone better. I don't know about
you and what your highlight from the day was.
It was a great day, Rob. And of course, you being
our Indigenous, my Indigenous partner on this,
it's really important to hear what you think.
But I thought it was a great day. Really exciting.
I think it built on what we did very quickly
for our first summit. And we had 40 % more delegates
here this time, which was great, from different
businesses, from the city in the UK, from well
-known industrials to some of the banks and other
financial services firms in the UK. So I thought
it was a great day. And I think everybody was
really, really enthusiastic. And I thought it
was very special, too, because I think also in
terms of the timing of this with what's gone
on with our southern neighbor back in Canada,
it's really changed the world. And I think for
me, one of the highlights of it, hearing the
Indigenous people speak and tell their stories.
These are the, once again. The people are going
to really contribute to the success of Canada.
And I think the definition of who a Canadian
is and what a Canadian is is actually going to
be very much rooted in the Indigenous people
because they are essential to the story of Canada.
And for a long time, they haven't been perceived
as that. Things are changing quickly in Canada,
and we've seen the progression. of our own summit
and the idea you and I had just two years ago
to bring the message of what's happening in the
Canadian Indigenous economy to London. And from
that idea two years ago, and we had our supporters
last year, and this year there's even more momentum.
We had more people, as you said, we had lots
of... uh, money from London in the room. Yes.
And, uh, and we had a really, an A -list team
of indigenous chiefs and leaders, business leaders,
all with their own perspectives because we literally
had coast to coast to coast, um, covered different
perspectives, but a common voice, uh, and, uh,
and really progressive thinking. Um, business
leaders who want to do things, who want to develop,
want to progress, who want to do it in the right
way, though. And so I thought there were a lot
of great messages that came out loud and clear
from that day. Yes, I think, as you said, we
covered the three oceans, right? The Pacific,
the Arctic, and the Atlantic, and all the land
in between. And I think if you're sitting in
the audience listening to what went on today,
You're just sitting there listening to some great
business leaders and great community leaders.
When I hear the discussions, two things. First
of all, those are the people you want to be doing
business with. They're hungry. They're competitive.
They know how to succeed. And that comes back
to partly all the challenges they faced. You
know, everybody thinks about the Ukrainians at
the moment. And everybody's supporting and saying,
look at them fight for their country. And in
all honesty, it's different, but it's similar.
Because when I look at the Indigenous peoples
of Canada, look at how they've been fighting
to regain their voice, to regain their land,
sea, and water. But they're also seeing the contribution
of how do we make Canada a better place for all.
So that was really, really, really powerful.
for that message to come through. And then for
the chiefs we had around the table and former
chiefs and just that leadership, they're providing
their communities what anybody wants. When I
hear them talking, it's like, I want my leader
where I live to be thinking about me and my community
in that manner. And because they have this deep
spiritual connection that many of us have lost
with the environment around them. Those are the
places you want to be because they're going to
be looking after the water. They're going to
be looking after the land and the air. And I
think one of the other things I was reflecting
on yesterday, you might remember this because
we came about the same time. I mean, everybody
today has a digital map. And I remember the A
to Z. here in the uk used to carry around your
map so you could figure around and postcodes
really work in this country right i don't think
they work the same way in canada because somebody
gives you oh where am i sw1 xx you know why you
know exactly where you are in canada i never
figured out that it got it to the general area
but here you live by the postal codes but when
you had the a to z i thought when we moved from
the a to z that you carried in your hand, digital
maps, you were lost. So then you go back to the
first maps of Canada. And then you go back to
some of the stories we heard earlier today. You
know, there were no maps. The maps were told
and were lived as some of them were telling us
that we went on this journey that our ancestors
do, have always followed that. How much knowledge
has been lost? over time the indigenous people
retain that so when you're looking at building
a new mine or doing a development you've got
your topographical map and your engineers have
looked in oh here's where we're going drill and
here's what we're going to do you miss so much
of what is really on that land and how it works
and how the the vegetation and animals cross
and use that. And there's that richness that
that's what being a human is all about, right?
We are so alienated from what's really there.
It's absolutely amazing. And that came through.
And that's part of the richness why I think anybody
speaking with the indigenous people, they know
what they're talking about. Absolutely. And I
think for the investors who are here from London
thinking about... In some cases, for the first
time, hearing about what's happening in Canada
directly from Indigenous people. And some of
them would have seen court cases, media coverage
of protests and those sorts of things and got
the impression before today that Indigenous people
are against all development. But I think the
messages were pretty clear. Generally speaking,
Indigenous people in Canada are supportive of
all kinds of development when it's done in the
right way, when they're involved in a meaningful
way, and when they're consulted and respected.
Secondly, I think investors were surprised at
the number of really exciting... opportunities
there are right now at this moment in time in
Canada within the Indigenous economy. It's not
the same Canada of 10 years ago even. Investors
who may have been disappointed at not getting
some things done in the past, I think were surprised
to learn that one, the law has changed in Canada.
The courts have been very supportive of Indigenous
rights. Business people have come to understand
that involving the local Indigenous communities
in their projects, in their businesses, is good
business. And that's the way you're going to
get things done in Canada from now on. We're
not going back to the days when you could literally
build a mine in an Indigenous territory, on a
reserve even, and not consult the Indigenous
people. And that happened time after time. But
those days are gone. Way gone. I think that's
now with the environment that we're in, with
what's going on again south of the border, that
you have to take another look at Canada because
probably if you're in the UK, investor or corporate,
and maybe you have a subsidiary over there at
the moment as some of the delegates had. They
were here from the head office seeing what's
going on in one of their key markets. I think
many of them and some of them said they were
surprised. They really didn't know how far this
has gone. So it's a completely new, it's a new
opportunity to have to look at the Canadian market
in a different way because the returns are actually
greater now, as you said, because in the past
where things were not done, taking into account
the Indigenous people, things didn't happen as
quickly because somebody was just saying, listen
to our voice. Now that there's that process,
it's in the constitution, free power and informed
consent, that's the way things are done. Things
will actually get done in a much quicker manner.
Some of the deals that were done with non -Indigenous
companies, the non -Indigenous companies were
saying, we could not have made this happen so
quickly, but because you as our Indigenous partner
know how to achieve things. And that's not about
working with around the bureaucracy. It's understand
what the regulations are trying to achieve. So
to make sure the submissions are on target and
deliver what's required makes that whole process.
process easier and i'm sure some people will
be surprised to to learn as they were done around
the world but there's the some of the indigenous
chiefs they were doing deals on zoom from start
to completion right with no physical interaction
on some very large transactions you know that
qualifies large anywhere in the world and they
were done so yeah i think it was mark But lastly,
you said this morning in one of the sessions
that there's no clearer form of consent than
to involve and take an equity stake in a project.
And so you're seeing that movement in Canada
where it's not enough to offer a royalty payment,
say, to the indigenous nation. It's not enough
to promise jobs. We want an equity stake and
a seat at the board table. And if you involve
Indigenous people in that way, then, as Mark
said, what clearer form of consent could you
get? Correct. And so if we move from the chiefs
and think about the organizations we had, like
FNPC and FNFA and the others, you know, Ernie
Daniels, for example, he's on the board of the
Bank of Canada. Yeah, and these are all part
of, again, a relatively new breed of Indigenous
institution. that is helping and built to facilitate
and foster the growth in the Indigenous economy.
And we had the top people, top executives from
every one of those organizations here speaking
articulately and passionately about how they've
helped in the last, and again, it's relatively
new phenomena in the last 10 years. and what
they plan to do the next 10 years. And they've
got big, big plans. Yes. You mentioned FNMPC,
the First Nations Major Projects Coalition. They
started with their conference only 10 years ago.
I think that was when they were established,
and they had 80, Mark. But lastly, the CEO who
was here said they had 80 delegates in a small
motel. booked room for their first conference.
And in a couple of weeks, they'll have their
conference again, their annual conference in
Toronto, and they'll have 2 ,000 delegates. That's
great. And with our delegation came from the
Yukon. That was very interesting for everybody
too. And you're off to the Arctic in the near
future, aren't you? Yeah, it's the Arctic Indigenous
Investment Conference in early May. And so I'll
be a keynote speaker and again talking about
international themes. It's that time when Canadians
are thinking about beyond the U .S. as a source
of capital and investment and partnership. Yes,
and as one of the speakers said, before the Europeans
arrived, the Indigenous were trading with other
Indigenous nations. What happened is that stopped.
And they were prevented from doing so as their
communities and nations were divided up or restricted
in terms of what they're doing. So they're going
back to what they've always done. They've always
been successful traders. And now they have full
participation in the country and economy today.
And coming back to some of the frameworks they
have, First Nations Financial Authority and the
others, there's the frameworks and then there's
the... lending capacity and the financial instruments
that now the Indigenous peoples have to tap into,
apart from the revenue streams that they already
receive. But I think a good example is in terms
of Chief Ted, Chief Ted Williams. Yeah, Chief
Ted Williams, the chief of the Ramah Nation in
Ontario. And they started with a casino. which
is really well known in Ontario. And they have
now leveraged that to be a shareholder of Cedar
Leaf Capital, which is amazing, along with the
Desnehi Group and the third group. Enshikai Hind
from BC, the Squamish Vancouver. Right, the Squamish
Nation. Yeah. three different groups across the
country, so the Indigenous people are also working
together. Working with our platinum sponsor,
Scotiabank. Yes, yes. And full credit to Scotiabank,
who helped set up Cedar Leaf with the three First
Nations. And Scotiabank said earlier today their
goal is to sell out, but they have helped set
it up. They are help training people. They're
helping build capacity so that Cedar Leaf, who
are a brand new securities dealer, like a brokerage
house here in London, and Scotiabank have helped
set it up. They may eventually become a competitor
of Scotiabank because Scotiabank is already in
that business. But Scotiabank have said it's
the right thing to do to build capacity with
the Indigenous economy. And so full credit to
them. They've also said that they don't believe
it's a zero -sum game, that just because cedar
leaf is in the market, coming into the market,
that that means there will be less revenue for
securities dealers to share and that'll lead
into Scotia's income. They think it'll grow the
pie because the indigenous economy is growing.
Correct. And it is growing. And I think you're
right. More and more of them want to access the
capital markets. And Cedar Leaf Capital will
be part of that solution. But talking with Clint
Davis earlier today and the CEO, he was watching
his phone because I think there were some deals
coming through. And I'm sure by the time our
podcast goes live next week, they'll be announced.
But when we first spoke to him prior to the summit,
they had one or two that they were hoping to
sign. And then since we spoke to him up to today,
the deals is bust. just been closing for them,
which shows they're getting traction. Yeah. And
they had some of their younger talent with them.
That's right. At the summit earlier today and
highlighting what they're doing to invest in
Indigenous talent and help grow the pool of people
that they can access and that other people will
be interested in accessing as well. You know,
Mark Palasi is now on the... The board of CIBC,
which just shows the opportunities in front of
the indigenous people, which again, as they also
get into non -indigenous people and McCarthy
Tetrell, you're now co -head of your indigenous
- The projects and transactions group. Projects
and transactions group. You have a strong team.
And that just shows the non -indigenous companies,
the banks, the law firms, and the enterprises
realize we need a team so we can engage. as equals
and understand to make things happen quicker
and those just it's an emerging market economy
within canada that has a very stable reputation
without a doubt so many so many exciting stories
and we had the honorable greg rickford ontario's
minister of indigenous affairs and First Nations
Economic Reconciliation with us, spoke later
in the day. I'm used to seeing ministers or government
officials who are involved in conferences like
ours come in. do their speech and then leave
immediately with their team. But give the minister
his dues. He stayed with us the entire day. Yes,
which is great. And he sat taking notes and he
spoke at the end of the day about his reflections
on the day. Yes. But I think it was due to the
high quality of the content throughout the day
and the type of people who were on the other
panels that... Yeah, he doesn't get a chance
to hear these individuals in that same manner.
And he's also, I think now in his title, it's
also Ring of Fire responsibility, right? He's
got a very long title. That's right. And what
did he have to say about that, Rob? You were
in that session with him, I think. Yeah, he actually,
in that session, he was supposed to talk more
about the Ring of Fire. He ended up... tossing
out his notes and speaking off the cuff about
his reflections on other panels that he had seen
and the things that he had learned over the day.
On the Ring of Fire, he is committed to trying
to speed up the approvals process. We've got
an area of richness, critical minerals in northern
Ontario, but very inaccessible. at the moment.
So very little infrastructure, talking very remote
areas of the province. And so his government
is committed to trying to build some infrastructure
because you need that infrastructure around at
first before you can then really exploit the
riches that are there. And just building that
infrastructure, you need to involve the local
Indigenous communities who are affected by anything
that's going to go up there. Right. So they are
committed to trying to develop that. One of the
sessions that I was in was the team from Saskatchewan.
We had strong turnout from Saskatchewan, the
heart of the country, right? So it makes sense.
And the CEO of Denison Mines. David Cates. David
Cates was... And talking about his journey, which
has been very similar to mine, because he grew
up with a different understanding of the history
of Canada. And he's, I think, now been CEO for
10 years. And Denison Mines has one of the richest
uranium deposits. If I recall correctly, it's
about 40%. And they've worked very closely with
the nations to access that in a way that... does
not destroy the environment, that they can maintain
their hunting and fishing and care and connection
with the land. And I think for some of the UK
delegates, they had a deep appreciation that
this is not, this is very deep and emotive for
them in their understanding themselves as a people
because they still continue these traditions.
As we have great traditions in the city of London,
right? There's some things that money is not
replaceable. And the theme of the discussions,
and I think when David heard it and said it at
the time, it's how to move us from no, was the
conversation with the indigenous nation. How
to move us from no, because they don't need to
develop it. There's already uranium mines on
their territory. They didn't have to have another
one. So they weren't going to do it unless the
community saw some benefit. And it's not just
financial benefit. It's what will this do for
our community? Because we've got uranium mines.
Why do we need another one? And Dennis and mine
spent a lot of time working with them and through
a whole process. And one of the key learnings
was... They were then told, okay, we'll work
with you, let's put together, and then we'll
put it to a vote in our community. And most CEOs
of companies are not used to working on a transaction
that is then going to a vote with a community.
And Denison did not, they left it with their
partner, Indigenous partner, to talk to the community
and then put it forward to them. There was no...
Let's push this through. Here's what we can do.
And the chiefs in that group change every year.
So it's not like on the East Coast where some
of the chiefs have been there for a very long
time and they know who they're working with.
In this group, they change every year. So I think
they've spoken with five different chiefs. But
when the indigenous peoples commit to something.
It's the community or the nation that's committing
to it. So it's not going to change down the road.
because it's passed on. Yeah, that sure sharpens
the mind when you're negotiating something and
you know it's going to be subject to that kind
of approval. It's a bit like having to go to
shareholders for approval of a transaction, but
shareholders have a really, really meaningful
interest in what you're doing. It's not a delegated
responsibility to management. It comes back to
the shareholders. Some people might think that
slows it down, but actually it doesn't. What
you get is great commitment. to what's going
on because when you're having a mine it's going
to last for decades so there's so many great
stories from coast to coast we said we had chief
terry paul from the east coast does not travel
very often uh anymore he's a bit of a legend
um and he's been chief of the member two nation
for 40 years now uh and done so much uh in the
way of business development to the one of the
highlights of the day for me i think was something
we only decided that the last minute which was
to ask the chiefs uh who were with us to come
up and just yes we we asked them for two minutes
of their reflections on the day and uh it and
in chief terry's case he talked about how what
a humbling experience it was and how grateful
he was to be at a place like the London Stock
Exchange, and that he had learned a lot over
the day, and that he had loved the whole experience.
That meant a lot for somebody like that to be
impacted. And then we had Chief Tammy Cook -Searson
talking about her residential school experience,
and her family's residential school experience,
and for her again. It was emotional for her to
think of her background and her family's background
and histories. And then to be able to come to
the heart of one of the world's great financial
centers in the London Stock Exchange was very
moving. Absolutely. And all of the chiefs we've
had were like that. And they emphasized, we're
the chiefs. Decisions are made at that level.
structures around them, supporting them with
the framework. And Harold Callow is also here
and provide great insight into what's happened
over time and where things are going. And none
of them really are looking forward to leaving
because the Indigenous economy is just taking
off. And it's so exciting for them all to see
we're growing, new opportunities are coming.
How do we get the best for the Indigenous people
that will also benefit Canada? as a whole so
we had chief crystal smith talking about cedar
lng right absolutely the lowest carbon footprint
in the world for an lng plant and that is really
something they've achieved that through use of
renewables to drive the conversion of the gas
to liquid natural gas so it can be shipped over
to asia and i'm sure some people are thinking
okay how are we going to do that on the east
coast but They talked about the hydrogen opportunity
on the East Coast. And there was a question from
the audience, from the UK audience, about what
sort of funding requirements are you looking
at? And he said hundreds of millions. And I think
the audience was a bit taken aback at that moment
because they knew that he wasn't joking. There's
a huge requirement for capital, and they've succeeded.
in the past. So they will be able to access those
funds. So people are going to have to compete
to be part of those deals now. So I think that's
really exciting across the board. And Tabitha
Pohl joining us, and she is another one of our
speakers who's in such high demand. And as I
said this morning, she's probably done three
other conferences this week in Canada. She was
in Halifax yesterday. Yeah, I was with the Prime
Minister earlier this week, but found the time,
took a red eye and joined us this morning. And
really grateful for her perspectives. She's the
CEO of the Canadian Council of Indigenous Business.
And a group, as I said, is near and dear to my
heart because I had my first office summer job
40 years ago working with that organization.
And when it was first established and to see
where they are today with 2 ,500 members, McCarthy
Tater was a member. You've got many non -Indigenous
members of the group. And it's all about partnerships
and helping grow the Indigenous economy in Canada.
Yes, because they are the voice of Indigenous
business in Canada. So it was great to have Tabitha.
I think in terms of what we're talking about,
and we spoke about Denison Mines and working
with English River First Nation, I think that
was really powerful, and the work that the Saskatchewan
Investment... Oh, the Saskatchewan Indigenous
Investment Finance Corporation. Okay, SIFSI.
I remember it now. I remember it as the acronym.
But, you know, there's a new body, again, bringing
lending capacity to the Indigenous peoples. And
the Desnetti Group, Sean. We'll talk to him on
an upcoming podcast, won't we? Yes, which will
be great. And they've built a huge business.
And what they're doing is when the opportunities
are coming. You know, if, for example, we'll
be talking to him and he mentioned, you know,
the uranium mine with the prices dropped, you
know, during COVID. And so they redeployed their
human resources to think, how do we keep people
employed gainfully to learn new skills? So when
the market opens up again, we can take on some
of the infrastructure projects that happen in
Saskatchewan. So it'll be really exciting to
speak to Sean Whelan. We've had a long day, Rob.
I need a drink, Mark. So do I. So do I. So let's
go have that. But it's been a fantastic end of
the second annual summit. I'm really excited
about what we're achieving for the Indigenous
Peoples of Canada in the city, in the UK, and
Europe. The audience grows from year to year.
People are saying, when is it next year? and
want to book. That's from speakers and delegates,
and our sponsors have been absolutely great.
Those have been with us. Some people have already
booked flights for next year, haven't they? Yes,
yes. And that's down to the efforts of you and
Siwa Ren, who have just done a fantastic job
producing an event that's first class. So thank
you for that. Well, thank you, because this is
like the Indigenous people. We all have roles
and work together for the success of the community.
And I think we are building a community with
the summit. And, you know, we have different,
all our sponsors have been there with us, you
know, including Anglo American as well, you know,
giving us support, helping to bring the right
people into the audience. So it remains a compelling
summit and very relevant for everyone. CIBC have
been with us from day one. They were a big supporter
again this year. Yes. National Bank. Yeah, National
Bank, Steve Berna. Absolutely. Who had transitioned
from FNFA and brought National Bank in and led
a great conversation and gave due respect to
FNFA and everything he learned with working with
Ernie and with Ernie Daniels. So it's been a
great day. But yes, let's go have that drink.
Are you going to have champagne, beer or wine?
I think I need a pint. Yeah, exactly. A pint
of Guinness would be great. So let's go get that.
Thank you very much, everyone. And we'll speak
to everyone soon. No one. Thank you. Thank you
for tuning in. We hope you found our discussion
of today's 2025 Canadian Indigenous Investment
Summit that was held at the London Stock Exchange
as engaging as we did. Be sure to share, subscribe
and leave a review on your favorite podcast channel.
Thanks for listening to Drumbeats. Until next
time. Thank you.