Welcome to Drumbeats, the must -listen -to podcast
which explains why Indigenous partnerships are
the key to securing successful outcomes in natural
resource and infrastructure investment in Canada.
So today is our second annual summit at the London
Stock Exchange in the City of London. So as Rob
and I get ready to go over to the London Stock
Exchange, we thought we'd share with you some
of the highlights of last year's summit. Honorable
Lisa Raitt explores the role of Indigenous communities
in shaping Canada's shift towards cleaner energy
sources. She is joined by Tabitha Bull, Terilyn
Morrison, Chief David Jimmy, Chief Dawn Maracle,
and Emily Black. I'd invite our panelists to
grab a glass of water. and get ready to talk
because, as I said to somebody else, you have
an impressive panel before you, ladies and gentlemen,
and they are the ones that should be heard, not
necessarily me as the moderator. But I do have
a few questions to start us off this morning.
The topic, of course, as you see, is about energy
transition and Indigenous leadership in Canada.
And as you've heard from the High Commissioner,
it's a really important... aspect of Canadian
economy right now is thinking about energy transition
and what it means and where we're going to go
from there. And the only way to get to energy
transition and where we want to get to, which
is net zero by 2050, is through Indigenous lands.
And that's why it's so important that we have
Indigenous leaders and representatives here to
make sure that we understand what the important
aspects are of engagement, but more importantly,
what the opportunity is for investment in Canada.
that indigenous reconciliation, economic reconciliation,
and the path that we are on now is impervious
to changes in politics. Is that something investors
can have a bit of comfort from, that at least
we're all on the same page? I think we talk a
lot, and the government, all governments talk
a lot about economic reconciliation, but a lot
of the measures that we're seeing are actually
rights -based, closing the gaps. You know, when
we talk about clean water and the number of First
Nation communities who don't have clean drinking
water and haven't for many, many years. Or, you
know, settlements on residential schools and
day school settlements and Jordan's principle,
which I know I'm throwing at a lot of Canadian
terms, but to me that's not economic reconciliation.
That is... Closing the social economic gap. That
is like human rights. And if we're going to talk
about economic reconciliation, we have to talk
about prosperity. Like, where is the investment
beyond us closing the gap? And that's when, you
know, things like the loan guarantee get us there.
But I don't think governments are really thinking
about prosperous Indigenous communities. They're
thinking about closing the gaps. Okay. Terry
Lynn? Well, I think that one thing is clear is
that Indigenous people in Canada are here and
are not going anywhere. We have our rights. We
know them. We're getting stronger and more organized.
Despite what the political landscape may be,
I think it's just a good way to do business by
involving Indigenous people because that's just
the right thing to do, I guess, for lack of better
words. And, you know, having experienced different
leaderships and governments throughout my career,
I think that the message is always the same.
We're here, we're not going anywhere, so the
best thing to do is just partner with us. Chief
Jimmy? I think Tabitha's bang on. The success
of Indigenous nations across the country and
Canada are not a result of relationships with
the government. They are a result of resilience.
They're a result of understanding and trying
to build on what they have in front of them.
And I think it's thinking outside the box from
small individual businesses to large... Yihau's
community of Tsutina, you know, massive economic
development going on. Myself and Chief Epp, you
know, in the commercial retail space. So, you
know, we've got 800 ,000 square feet of commercial
retail space. And between our communities that
have been built out for shopping centers, we've
seen close to $800 million in... development
projects just within our stallo territory so
I think the result of of prosperity and and kind
of where we are has been based on not giving
up and I think the government is recognizing
and based on the closing the gap and and the
wins that we've had legally all contribute to
it sure there are policy and there's there's
work to be done and we're seeing you know undrip
kind of coming on board, but then the implementation
is a completely different story. So it's great
to have the announcements, which feel good, sound
good, but implementation is so key. And I think
we're just slowly getting to those places. And
we work with whichever government is in power.
And we're always very cautious of that. I would
say even on engagement with the current federal
government, we are now being mindful that We
want to engage with the Conservative government
because if there is a change and the pipeline
is not sold within this time frame, we're going
to have to engage with the next government. So
recognizing and ensuring that we're covering
all bases. Important to maintain the relationship,
but I just want to acknowledge the resilience
of our previous leadership that have really forged
the way for us to be up here sharing today. And
I note that former Chief Billy Morin is the conservative
candidate now in the Edmonton area. I don't know
quite what his riding is. Chief Dan. Well, we
have to, I guess, work with whatever government
is there. But I think Indigenous people need
to be continuously involved in shaping what government
policy is on the policies that affect us and
our ability to grow and prosper. It's a stated
goal by all governments, but there has to be
accountability. success is being achieved. But
government policy can also, they need to recognize
that investors will want long -term certainty
and stability of their investments, that they're
going to get a good return, that debts can be
paid back. And so we're seeing more of that emerge
now with the way that energy contracts are being
developed with the ISO. And so when Doug Ford
came on the scene to run for Premier, he was
very much against green energy, wind and solar,
but now they're embracing that. And so there's
a change in government policy, recognize that
there's a long -standing neglect of the energy
sector keeping up with the pace of population
growth and economic demand for power. And so
there's plenty of opportunity, and I think no
matter what government is there, they're going
to recognize that. all of the critical infrastructure
is necessary to promote economic growth and prosperity
in the country, whichever part, regardless of
whichever party it is. And so it's foundational
in helping the government achieve its goals.
There seems to be a lot of harmony now with decarbonization
and not emitting energy sources of energy production.
So there's a lot of commonality in their policy
now, which is going to be good for the economy.
Robert Brandt shares some insight on navigating
Indigenous consultation and consent in Canada.
Some of the things that hit me, my colleague
Dan Bornstein, who practices in this area in
Toronto, we were talking about timelines for
projects, and in our experience, people starting
out projects, how long does it typically take
in Canada to get something approved? The main
indicator of length of time is whether you have
the Indigenous communities on side. There's one
answer if you've got those Indigenous communities
on side. There's a totally different answer if
you don't yet. And so that just highlighted how
important that is. It'll speed up the process.
We talked about a movement to have Indigenous
communities act as regulator in impact assessment
cases, and that's a growing trend. We talked
about the importance of UNDRIP and Lauren from
Anglo and some others were talking about the
fact that whatever the law is, the fact is that
Indigenous communities have almost a veto now
over developments that are going to occur in
their territories. So in a lot of cases, although
UNDRIP is not the law in all parts of the country,
there's an effect of practice that is implementing
those principles already. We talked about the
duty to consult, so there's the UNDRIP principles,
but the courts, Canadian courts, have established
a duty to consult, and when does that start?
And some court cases are pushing that duty earlier
and earlier in the process, and Indigenous groups
going to challenge. Suggesting that the duty
to consult should start at that earliest stage,
an investment decision stage, not just an authorization
stage decision by a government, but the decision
to make an investment in a project. We talked
about, in our experience, McCarthy's and Anglo
and Dadco working other... Outside of Canada
and other parts of the world, there's nothing
similar to what is happening in Canada in terms
of equity participation and structures. And we
were questioning why, why Canada, why is Canada
leading the way? And that sounds like the subject
of an article or a paper or a book maybe. But
some of the ideas were the reconciliation process
that's underway in Canada helps that. Court decisions,
legislators have stepped back in a lot of situations
from defining what Indigenous rights really mean.
Canadian courts have stepped in and some significant
decisions have bolstered Indigenous rights and
prompted some of these structures that are being
created to get things done. Jonathan Davey shares
some key takeaways. regarding the investment
landscape in Indigenous business sectors. Myself,
and I was joined by Scott Munro and Lynn Parsons,
who you saw up here earlier today. We were navigating
Indigenous investment with professionals. And
I'm going to give you four themes and two things
to remember. Four themes are Section 89 is not
your friend. That's Section 89 of the Indian
Act. Cash is like water. The line that brings
us light. and the value of FMB certification.
So I'll briefly go through all four of those.
So the first one is Section 89 of the Indian
Act is not your friend. Something that we kind
of assume, I think, sometimes for knowledge when
talking to different audiences is just why it's
so difficult to access capital sometimes for
indigenous groups, primarily First Nations. And
if you look at Section 89 of the Indian Act,
you'll recognize that any asset that's on reserve
can't be used as collateral. So it really undermines
the traditional concept of equity on reserve.
And so that really acts as a barrier. And sometimes
we just, we start talking about opportunity and
we start talking about restrictions without acknowledging
really one of the biggest roots of it, I'd say.
So in order to combat that, it's always a good
question to ask when you're looking at major
projects or investment opportunities, is the
opportunity on reserve or off reserve? If it's
on reserve, you might have restrictions that
are under the Indian Act or associated legislation.
If it's off reserve, it's probably not. And it
focuses on something else, which takes us to
point two, which was caches like water. So when
you have so many restrictions, it puts this great
emphasis on cash flow on reserve or cash flow
within communities. And when you think about
it, the analogy that was used, which I think
is pretty apt, is that water will flow where
there's the least resistance. And so if you think
about that from a First Nations perspective,
there's this great focus on own source revenues
being generated in cash security and financial
assets, but you need to have the structures in
place. So look for nations that are scheduled
under the Indian Bands Revenue Money Order or
that have FMB certification or that manage their
funds in such a way that reduce federal oversight
so that there's no monies being remitted back
to the Consolidated Revenue Fund in Ottawa, Ontario.
And in order to illustrate that, Lynn brought
up a great example of the Wate transmission line,
which translates into, under its traditional
name, the line that brings light. And this was
a group of 24 First Nations that came together
for a hydroelectric transmission project, which
will serve as 17 First Nations. We're teaming
up with Fortis, an energy group, or utility group,
pardon me. the 24 nations will have ownership
over the line. And it's a major project that's
really brought utility to the First Nations,
but it's shown as a great example of equity.
And when we say, well, who leads something like
that, that took us to our final point, which
was the value of the First Nation Financial Management
Board certification, which is Scott's group.
If you voluntarily subject yourself to an audit
of how you manage your cash flow and your financial
systems, not only do you get access to the First
Nation Finance Authority and the First Nation
Tax Commission, you also really make yourself
appealing to different financial institutions
who may be looking to lend you money based on
a risk rating. So when you look at Section 89
is not your friend, cash is like water. the line
that brings us light in the value of F &B certification,
there's two things that I think every investor
outside of Canada should know about working with
indigenous groups. And the first is, one, look
for that First Nation Financial Management Board
certification. You're going to find a really
strong management group behind it. It's going
to be a great partner. And two, if you think
about the example of Watte, look at where indigenous
groups are coming together for an economic purpose.
Because when you see those groups come together,
capital is often needed. And that's where it's
usually a great opportunity to have some foreign
investment. Fred de Blasio discusses how partnering
with Indigenous communities can shape policies
and practices in renewable energy and how best
to navigate Canada's energy transition. Well,
our topic was navigating the future, energy transition
and indigenous perspectives. And two of my co
-conspirators were Terry Lynn and Bernd, amongst
others. I think, I guess there are five messages
we wanted to leave behind. The first one is that
Canada is the world's largest emerging market
with no emerging market risk. And that's something
to really... let's sink in because it's key.
Capital does not like risk and so if you can
avoid all the emerging market risks then that's
a huge benefit to your investors. First Nations
support responsible underlined development and
that means we have to share our knowledge and
we will accept the knowledge that is shared with
us but it's a two -way bilateral communication.
And when that happens, we get to listen to each
other's wisdom. And the benefits we bring in
partnership with large proponents is that you
get social license and you get speed to market
because of one of the unique elements of the
Indian Act, which is in large part not particularly
kind, but we've managed to be able to figure
out a way where we could take advantage of it.
And the last bit is something that I think is
quite obvious but is required, and that's that...
We have to develop our economies. And in so doing,
the economic engine will pull the social cart.
And that's for folks in our communities, but
also for all Canadians. And so by partnering
with First Nations, we have the opportunity to
make economic reconciliation a reality. And that's
a tide that allows all boats to float. Chief
David Jimmy on the discussion of how energy projects
and Indigenous leadership can work together to
balance economic interests with environmental
responsibility. Our table was tax and energy,
myself, Chief Epp, and Emily Black. And we covered
all kinds of ground at our table because there
were a lot of questions just in general. um trying
to understand you know what are some of the major
energy projects in canada what's the relationship
for the nations and you know how do you engage
um in and full disclaimer here like you know
you have a very very small representation of
indigenous nations here today in comparison to
what we have across the country this is uh you're
only hearing a few stories you're only hearing
from a few different territories but it is You
know, if we think of 600 plus communities and
you go to a national assembly where all of our
chiefs are gathered, you've got over 600 chiefs
in a room trying to discuss issues. So by no
means are we speaking on behalf of everyone here
today. Lots of discussion around the tax charge
that Chief Hepp was involved in. and and just
thinking about how that benefits communities
and thinking about the opportunities that can
actually result in that from having a you know
finally a benefit coming back that should have
been in existence prior but also how you can
leverage that tax charge to be engaged in other
energy projects, equity opportunities, how you're
able to use that as the security to secure financing,
and what that means to communities, being able
to give back, being able to think about all of
the challenges that we face, and for those communities
that have no resources and no opportunities to
generate own source revenue. Being able to benefit
from a tax charge actually gives them some of
the means to help their community members and
all those forms of support from education, healthcare,
housing, the list goes on. So just so many benefits
from everyone coming together to work in that
scale. Understanding smaller scale and engagement.
So we spent a bit of time talking about the differences
of individual communities versus, so what are,
you know result of Indian reservations and the
restrictions around your jurisdiction within
those parameters versus traditional territories
and so you know we think about our tax administration
we think about our Land Management Act and and
how we're able to implement those laws or enact
laws only are confined to the reserve and so
this is where the discussion took place about
critical mineral strategy and other larger development
opportunities for collective communities we talked
about political capital so this was a a good
discussion raised and talking about sometimes
the difference when you're looking at large -scale
projects the evaluation of the of the project
versus the actual purchase price in some cases
when we come to the table as nations willing
and able there is a level of political capital
that comes with that that that comes with de
-risking projects that comes with thinking about
permitting and engagement for those territories
that actually have their own process in place
and so in some cases it's almost impossible to
try and find the true number as far as evaluation
goes for political capital but Sometimes it's
the delta between the purchase price and the
valuation. So you can see a sort of discounted
amount on that. We talked a little bit about
the loan guarantee and the challenges there.
You know, how government can essentially make
things a little tougher than they need to be
by creating too many levels of bureaucracy before
you can actually get approval with projects.
And a really great question towards the end was,
It was framed in the way that the nations are
getting stronger, the opportunities are getting
greater, and at some point, the financial power
that's going to come with a collective effort,
what does that look like as far as having influence
with government? And how can we amalgamate ourselves
in a way that is influential? And we admitted,
I think, as having two chiefs at our table, that
sometimes we can be our own worst enemies. And
sometimes our differences we can't set aside
because people want to hold their cards close.
They don't want to share. They don't want to
have the open discussion about what overlaps
can mean and how they can actually benefit more
communities. So we need to do some work internally
and think about the world of these financial
and project opportunities versus the world of
the... rights and title approach, and they both
have to be working together. So those are just
a few thoughts. Thank you. Hal Eagletail provides
insights on navigating Indigenous business environments
and leveraging community resources for long -term
prosperity. So ours was regenerating land and
community energy and land use. I was with Tabitha
and Chief Don. So basically, what I interpreted
at the beginning was that before the coming of
European people 500 years ago to Canada, the
First Nations had the most intricate free trade
from North to South America. Our economy thrived
and existed. And when the European people came,
they took our trade routes. They took our commodities.
They put in their dollar value from our bartering
system. And what we need to do today as First
Nations is reactivate our traditional trade.
And having joint ventures and collectively working
together will help us reactivate. So every nation
in Canada, 634 nations, need to take an inventory.
What do they have to bring to the table? Agriculture,
horticulture, oil and gas, forestry, fisheries.
And the UK, two months ago, we came and visited
Parliament, and they want to do reconciliation
with First Nations directly, have sovereign -to
-sovereign trade. So First Nations signed treaty
with Great Britain. We have the Union Jack on
our flags to respect that. And this is the Parliament's
interpretation of reconciliation. So if they
do decide to have a free trade directly with
First Nations, this is where we need to reactivate
our trades to work collectively to go after the
big UK contracts, whether it's in agriculture,
horticulture, oil and gas, textiles, or whatever.
But I also told Parliament, you have to ratify
the Jay Treaty. This is the treaty between Canada
and U .S. to have the free flow of First Nations
because we never had any borders in place. So
U .S. gratified it. Great Britain has to ratify
it so that we can have this free flow and we
can get our First Nations in the U .S. to come
into the free trade market with us on a global
market and global stage. So looking forward to
that. Thank you. Final thoughts from Bernt Christmas,
Chief Derek Epp, Scott Munro, and Fred de Blasio
on Indigenous Partnerships in Canadian Infrastructure
today. We have time for sort of one final thought
from each panel member. So maybe we'll start
with Bernt this time. Yeah, I think the thought
is for people that come here for this particular
conference, Basically, we're open for business.
Please come and see us. There's an infinite number
of opportunities in Canada to partner with our
communities, and you'll be pleasantly surprised.
There's lots to go around, so to speak. Yeah,
I think, great point, and echo that, and just
maybe acknowledging now we have the tools to
play the games. And now we have the tools to
be a part of the economy and we are open for
business and come to Canada. I think there's
a lot of opportunities. I would say that as investors
demand more accountability from a sustainability
perspective and from an ESG perspective, there's
a great upside to partnering with First Nations
and Indigenous peoples because that's inherent
in who we are. We never used the word ESG or
sustainability, but that's the way we have always
approached everything from a sustainable perspective.
We don't think in short term. We think about
long term, and we think about how to only take
what we can that doesn't prevent future generations
from being impacted negatively. So that's sustainability
to me. So I think there's great opportunity to
see more Indigenous inclusion in sustainability
standard setting and sustainability requirements.
So think about that as you're looking to inform
investors, because I think you'll get a positive
reaction if you're able to demonstrate that your
work and your investing decisions are taking
into account the expectations of Indigenous peoples
from a sustainability perspective. And I think
you'll be rewarded for it. The legal framework
in Canada has changed its material. It's a powerful
tool. It's not a veto, but let's call it maybe
a quasi -business veto. The total addressable
market of the opportunities is absolutely massive.
And so I really encourage everyone to lean in
and take the journey to Canada and engage with
our First Nations and our First Peoples across
the country. You'll find it a very welcoming
place. I think you'll find that our value system
is really something to be proud of. And as Scott
just mentioned, when it comes to ESG, we were
the originators of ESG. We've been living that
since time immemorial. And so if you lean in
and those three things are important to you,
then you've got a lot of room to grow and to
make incredible investments across the country
and make really economic reconciliation a reality.
We hope you enjoyed listening to some of the
highlights from the 2024 summit. And today is
going to be an even more exciting day. And we
can't wait to share with you. some of the conversations,
insights and people we're meeting today. Be sure
to share, subscribe and leave a review on your
favorite podcast channel. Thanks for listening
to Drumbeats. Until next time.