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Welcome to Drum Beats, the must listen to podcast for investors interested in indigenous investment in Canada.

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I am Mark McNacca and my co-host Robert Brant and I are joined today by Chief Ted Williams of the Chippewas of Rama First Nation.

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Ted has been instrumental in the success of the Rama First Nation, home of the famous Casino Rama, whose success has enabled them to develop a reputation for prudent investment management.

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As a result, they are one of the main shareholders of the recently launched Cedar Leaf Capital.

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Join us as we explore how these critical conversations are reshaping economic development across Canada.

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Chief Ted Williams, Rama First Nation in Ontario. Welcome to the Drum Beats podcast and thank you for taking the time to speak to us.

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Yes, welcome to Drum Beats, Chief Williams.

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It's a pleasure to be here, thank you.

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Let's get started maybe a bit about your own background, Chief, and your education, your work experience.

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Again, thank you very much for inviting me.

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My name is Ted Williams and I am Chief Ted Williams.

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Nosh Khung is the ancestral name of my family. I'm from Rama and I am of the Fish Clan. The Fish Clan is the philosopher, educator background to my clan.

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I grew up in Rama. I was born in Orillia, 12km from here. I don't mind telling you that I was born on June 20th, 1956.

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There's a story to my name, I'll get into that. My work experience, I've done, I remember working in Rama as a summer student pumping gas and working in one of our parks.

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I longed to be a leader in the community and I was elected first time to council in 1982. I served two council terms, two year terms on council until 1986.

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In 1986 I was elected Chief for the first time and after that I sold real estate, I developed Casino Rama.

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I was the manager of the community back in the early 90s and I led the charge on the development of Casino Rama.

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I worked at Casino Rama for five years as a vice president of corporate affairs and human resources.

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I left in 2001 for 13 years, I did my own thing, consulting, speaking, I took up chainsaw carving, I'm a former professional golfer.

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I did play Cliff Thorburn who was Canada's best snooker champion who became world champion back in 1981 or 82, I can't remember the year.

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But I played Cliff back in 1977 and I like to tell people that it wasn't for me, Cliff wouldn't be the world champion because he had to go through me to get there.

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Subsequently in moving back to 2014 after 13 years of doing my own thing and doing quite well, I was elected to council.

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I didn't actually campaign, I got a call the next morning after the election and it was a call from a friend who said congratulations and I said on what?

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And he said well you've been elected to council, that's 11 years ago and I'm like whoa, well that's a good thing.

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So I did six years on council and in 2020 I was urged to run for chief and so I ran for chief and I was elected chief in early September of 2020 and I've been the chief since that time.

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I have a family, my daughter is a historian, she spent time in University College of Dublin in Ireland and then she went and she did a year at Oxford about 14, 15 years ago.

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And my son, he moved to the States 18, 19 years ago, spent 18 years there and he's moved back to Canada and he's in the community now.

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And my wife and I will be celebrating this year 47 years of marriage.

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Wow, congratulations.

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Fantastic, I don't know where to begin with that.

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Chainsaw, let's talk about the chainsaw.

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Yeah, and the golf professional.

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Well let me tell you about the chainsaw.

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My wife and I, we opened up a little trading post in the area in 2002 and I seen this fella who was carving with the chainsaw on TV in one of the Toronto stations and I'm like, well that's really neat and I like that carving that he did.

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So I went to see him and we bought two carvings and we put them in the store and I really liked it and I'm like, I was curious how you do that.

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I've never had a chainsaw in my hand before and so I went to see him and asked him, can you show me how to do this?

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Because I really like this and he said sure and come and spend a couple hours or a day with me, a couple of days he actually said.

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So I went down and he says, I'm not a teacher, I'll make a cut and you make the same cut.

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And after two hours he abruptly said stop, stop, stop.

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And I was like a little shocked and I'm like, uh oh, something's wrong.

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And he says, grab me a carving.

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And he was clearly a little upset and I'm like, I don't know where this is going and followed me to my house, which was just 50 yards away.

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And I had my carving under my arm and he goes inside the house, he comes out, he's got two carvings, the one on each arm, under each arm, he puts them down.

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And he says, this guy's been carving for three years and this guy's been carving for two years.

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These are his first carvings and he gave them to me.

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And he says, put yours down and I put mine down in the middle.

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And he says, you've been carving for two hours and I knew what he was getting at because my carving was better than the other two.

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And he said, the lesson's over.

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He says, you'll be fine.

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And so I decided that I'll spend more time doing this.

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And the theme here is practice and repetition.

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And so I practiced and repeated, practiced and repeated.

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And subsequently I had 34 carvings during the course of the winter in 2004 and 2005.

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And my wife, they're all in the deck.

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We live on the waterfront and she says, you can't keep these.

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Can you get rid of them because they're all over the place.

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And I said, I'm not going to give them up.

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And she says, well, do something with them.

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So I loaded them in a trailer, took them down to the general store and I began to sell them.

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This was Easter weekend in 2005, early April.

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And I sold all 34 of them and I came home with an empty trailer.

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And my wife, she says to me, oh, you got rid of them all.

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You know, who'd you give them to?

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And I said, I didn't give them to anyone.

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And she says, well, how'd you get rid of them?

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I said, I sold them all.

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You sold them all.

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And she says, I did.

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I said, yes, I did.

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And she says, well, where's the money?

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And I had a big wad of bills and I put it on the island at home.

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And she says, how much is there?

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I said, $4,300.

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$4,300?

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And she says, wow.

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And then she said those great words.

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She says, well, I guess you better keep carving.

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And I said, yeah, fine, fine, fine.

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That's great.

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And so subsequently, I did a lot of carving from 2004 until 2014.

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I've got over 4,000 carvings out there, all bears.

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Most of them are bears.

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And I sold them for cash on the reserve, you know, so there's no tax issues.

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And when I sell the bears, basically I tell people that the bear is the healer, the bear is the guardian,

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the bear is the protector.

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And this particular bear may be 40 years old.

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And I said, how do you know it's 40 years old?

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And she said, you take a look at the rings, the rings on the tree, which is white pine, there's 40 rings.

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So he's 40 years old.

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And this particular bear is alive.

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And I said, well, can it be alive?

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I said, well, science tells us that everything is in a state of vibration.

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If you put a high-powered magnifying glass on that bear, you can see him vibrating.

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And I said, you know what that is?

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That's the heartbeat of the bear.

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And you can tell people that, you know, it was carved by former chief Ted Williams of Rama.

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And so that's part of what I want to talk about is how we sell, how we sell our goods, how we sell ourselves,

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how we sell, you know, our community.

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And so the art of sales, because I would follow it up with, did you want me to put that in the back seat or did you want me to put it in the trunk?

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Did you want one for the house, one for the cottage and one for the place of business?

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And they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

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Right. And I said, OK.

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Well, well, dear, what do you think?

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Well, cottage would be good.

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OK, did you want me to put them in the trunk or did you want me to put them in the back seat?

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I'm always looking to close the deal.

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And so subsequently they would take it, throw it in the trunk because, you know, I don't want to mess up the back seat.

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But it's sales is why I sold over 4,000 of them.

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And sales is why I've been able to do what I've been able to do.

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Right. How about a bit of history of the Rama First Nation?

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My territory, Mohawks and the Queen of Quinty, isn't too far away, but I'll admit I don't know much about Rama.

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So.

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Well, the history of Rama is probably one of the longest histories, let's say, of the First Nation people, the indigenous community.

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We were located in Coldwater, Ontario, and we were part of a community that included the Bozile Island First Nation and Georgina Island First Nation.

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They weren't nations at the time, but we were all three together in the first in the first reserve.

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That was designated by the settlers, by the colonizers in Coldwater.

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And in Coldwater, there's fertile farmland there and there's water.

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And we would we would track from Coldwater to Arillia along a path that we had made back in the early eighteen hundreds.

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And the colonizing government basically said, you know, we've got a great spot for you up in Manitoulin Island, where you can be there with your other brethren from other nations.

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And basically, they want, you know, they wanted to get us out of sight and move us.

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And my ancestor, leaders, Chief Yellowhead, Musquaki, who Muscogee is named after, said, no, no, we're not going anywhere.

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You know, we're sticking around here. OK, we're not going to be in Coldwater, but we'll move to Arillia on the shores of Lake Kuchching.

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And that's where we moved to the shores of Lake Kuchching.

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And then the settlers followed us and they subsequently wanted the city of Arillia, Arillia for their own.

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And so we were enterprising individuals as an indigenous community at the time.

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And we had lumber holdings and money.

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And so we used the money that we had from, you know, the lumber industry at the time.

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And we bought our own land, which is where we are right now.

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We're one of the only First Nations that have bought and paid for our own land.

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And so we've been here in this spot since 1836.

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And we've grown over the course of, you know, 150 years, 175 years, maybe now almost.

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Anyway, and that's the history of Rama.

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And we've had some great leaders that have actually made the track to London to visit the Queen and the King back in the early 1900s.

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So we have a long history of dealing with the British Empire.

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I think I've read about that delegation. What was the purpose of that? What was happening at the time?

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What was happening at the time was there was issues regarding hunting and fishing and land and monies that were owed.

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And so there was a delegation that actually went to make the case to the monarch, the British Empire, the Queen and or the King.

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I think it was the King at the time.

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You've seen a lot of changes in the community and you've been involved with the casino and other enterprises leading up to today

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in investment in a new indigenous owned securities dealer in Canada called Cedar Leaf Capital.

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How have you seen a change in the outlook towards investment and have you been able to use revenues from gaming to do other things?

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Is that how it's evolved?

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Well, Grandma, over the years, when I first was on council, we had a population of 400 people and our unemployment was 85, 90 percent.

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Those individuals who are working worked in the foundry industry in Orillia. Orillia was a foundry town.

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And so they worked in the foundry during the summer and the winter. There was a lot of hunting and fishing.

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I come from a family of 14 of the brothers and sisters. My dad was a hunter, a fisherman.

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And so, you know, he would go out and hunt and fish to provide for the family.

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He's out almost every day, you know, feeding a family that large took a lot of effort.

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He didn't work in the foundry. He would work in the construction industry during the summertime.

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So during the course of my leadership, I was very much involved in thinking about economic development,

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looking at enterprises to generate money and, you know, provide for the needs of the community.

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We did have an industrial mall that we developed in 1980 and was financed by an individual from Toronto.

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And the interest rate at the time, I believe it was like 17 or 18 percent.

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And it was just insane, actually. I hope those days never return.

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But we started this industrial plaza where we employed a number of members from the community

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and three or four different industries in the community back in 1982, 83, up until 1994, 95,

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when we started to develop the casino.

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We actually relocated those industries into Arilia.

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So we were contributing to Arilia's economic prosperity at that time.

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And so over the course of time, we took the bid and proposed to the First Nations

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and the provincial government to have a casino in Rama.

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I co-wrote the proposal. I managed all of the media community meetings in Arilia,

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in Arilia and in my community.

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And I visited over 100 casinos down in the States, right across the U.S. of A.

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And came back and provided the information to my community first and then the surrounding area next

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and gathered support from the local municipal businesses and politicians and that formed part of our proposal.

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Long story short, we were shortlisted twice and then we actually won the bid on the 5th of December 1994.

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And our world changed forever after that day.

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Subsequently, after winning the bid, we needed to implement the development of casino Rama.

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And because I played a large role in securing the winning bid, my council at the time said,

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well, we need somebody to make it happen.

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And so they tapped me on the shoulder and said, you've been a big part of this, so make it happen.

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I hired 10 people who worked with me very closely to develop the plan,

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working with the provincial government to make casino Rama happen.

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There was a bit of a hiccup there back in February of 96, in around this time.

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But we worked and negotiated with the provincial government during that time to re-kick and restart the project.

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And we subsequently opened Casino Rama.

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On January 31st, 1996, I started as a vice president.

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I moved from after I developed the casino, my job was over, and I moved into a role with the casino.

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And I took on the role of vice president of corporate affairs.

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And I don't mind telling you that the first five years, the first year we did $590M.

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We generated 3,400 jobs.

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The initial projections for Casino Rama was that we would do $200M and generate 1,000 jobs.

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Today we're doing $200M and we've got 1,000 jobs.

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So basically I've said to people that for about 26 years we rode the gravy train.

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And now we're at a level where we anticipated we would be 29, 30 years ago.

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Casino Rama is located on the Chippewas of Rama territory.

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And our location is about 145km from Toronto Pearson Airport.

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Toronto we know is a market of 8-9M people.

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And Rama is within two hours of a market of 10M people.

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So you can be in Casino Rama within two hours from the metro area.

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So when we opened up, the only casino that was happening was Casino Windsor,

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but opened up in I believe it was May of 1994.

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It was already, given the indication that Casino Rama would be the only casino in central Ontario

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for the next two or three years.

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Subsequently the province of Ontario, because of the success that was happening in Windsor and in Rama,

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quickly opened up Casino Niagara within six months of the opening of Casino Rama.

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And so today we still have obviously a grown market, but we have much more competition.

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And so we're having to work all that smarter and harder to maintain our place in the marketplace.

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And so Casino Rama is the casino of central Ontario, it's just shy of the Muskokas.

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Highway 11 carries anywhere from 10-12M vehicles heading north,

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which is just a couple of minutes off the highway to Casino Rama.

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And so our job is to get them to divert over to Rama and visit the casino.

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And we had done that very successfully and have done that very successfully for the last 29 years.

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It'll be 29 years open this coming July 31st.

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And how about any negative impacts on the community when a big casino opens?

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Are there things you have to be careful about in a small community?

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For sure. And this was part of my dialogue and discussion before we opened up the casino,

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was environmental issues for the type of development that we were looking at.

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There was the whole money laundering, underworld activity that was happening, how we're going to handle that.

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There was the issue of gambling and gambling addiction, the traffic, how we're going to handle the traffic that was coming in to the community.

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And so we had 40 different meetings that I chaired with the community on how we were going to deal with the challenges of opening up a casino.

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We have our own wastewater and water plant. We have our own police department, fire department, paramedic department.

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And we have around the clock security as well that we employ members of the community.

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The other issue was how individuals who would be employed at the casino.

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When we first opened up, we had 140 members of the community employed at the casino.

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We were the single largest employer of First Nation individuals in one spot across the country.

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We had 800 First Nation individuals from all nations that could make it here.

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And so we were the single largest First Nation employer in the country in one spot.

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So subsequently through dialogue and implementing different programs, the gambling addiction program here in the community and working with the casino,

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working with our social service department, we have done the best that we can to mitigate the various issues related to crime, violence, addiction, environment and or traffic.

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Working with our colleagues, both municipal, federal, provincial and within the community.

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That's impressive. So that's given you a platform now because now you're a community that's run a successful business for 25, 30 years.

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Obviously with that kind of traffic, significant amount of wealth. And now the decision is where do you invest going ahead?

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So the casino has allowed us to create our own source revenues.

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A lot of First Nations are dependent on federal and provincial dollars to work the programs in the community.

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Rama is in a position where we are 75% own source revenues.

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So we generate 75% of our own money. And when you generate 75% of your own money,

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it's up to you to decide where you're going to spend it and what you're going to do.

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The other 25%, you know, share will report to the provincial government or largely the federal government.

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This is what we're doing. But we don't report on the money that we actually are using for own source.

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We will advise people. We will tell you this is what we're doing, but you don't have any say in it. We are actually doing it.

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So in that sense, you know, it allows us to be a little more creative.

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It allows us to be responsive to the business world because the business world requires immediate response.

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We can't sit around like bureaucrats trying to figure out what to do.

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No, we need to act and act now if there is an opportunity.

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And that's part of that is me translating that to my colleagues, to sit around the council table and to our community that,

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you know, business opportunities need to be acted upon quickly to take advantage of the various opportunities that are out there.

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And there are many opportunities that are out there for the First Nation communities across the country here.

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And maybe talk a little bit about how the cedar leaf opportunity came about and what attracted you to that investment.

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Part of what we need to do as First Nations is we need to carry ourselves in a professional manner inside and outside of the operation.

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How you handle your own source revenues, how you handle your funds, how you develop relationships with the surrounding community,

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with the financial institutions, with the provincial government, with the federal government.

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And over the course of time, you develop a reputation, you know, for doing things and doing things right.

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And people see the success that you have achieved in your community.

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And that's important because when times like these come and there's opportunities that are presented,

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we have a strong relationship with the Scotiabank.

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The Scotiabank actually financed Casino Rama to the tune of $200 million.

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And you can imagine 30 years ago, someone spending $200 million in the First Nation, largely unsecured.

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When does that happen?

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You know, sure, we had an operating agreement and there was, you know, some securities that were given to the bank,

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but they took the chance and they provided the $200 million.

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And they were paid off the whole $200 million within two years as a result of the generation of the funds that we did in the first two years.

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And really what I'm getting at is the development of those relationships create opportunities.

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So it was Scotiabank that actually called us.

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And because they know how we run our shop here, how we run the First Nation,

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and they had suggested that, you know, we have a discussion with our partners from Squamish and NSD, Western First Nation corporations.

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And they invited us to participate in Cedar Leaf.

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If we had not been watching, you know, our financial position, would we have gotten the call?

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Chances are not, you know, but because we have a good reputation in the First Nation community,

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we have a good reputation with the federal and provincial government.

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We obviously have a good reputation in the financial sector.

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And so Scotiabank gave us a call and proposed that we partner up with Scotiabank

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and the other two First Nation entities to create Cedar Leaf.

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And we jumped at it because Scotiabank was putting up the money.

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And, you know, we are going to be owners of Cedar Leaf at the end of a 10-year term.

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Obviously, we're working with our good friend Clint Davis and senior executives on the Scotiabank team

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to make sure that, you know, we capture a piece of the market.

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And that's how we actually have come to be.

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And I think it speaks to the transformation that's going on in terms of the Indigenous people taking their rightful place

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in Canadian society and, you know, the development of the Canadian economy

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because you've gone from having no assets that you could secure.

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The money was coming from the government for the restrictions they imposed.

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You've developed your own assets, your own revenue streams.

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Scotiabank did a great job choosing who we're going to work with as they do, you know, Indigenous, non-Indigenous.

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And they backed you when you didn't need anything.

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You've grown a business, and here you are being presented opportunities because you've now got capital.

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And, you know, my message to other First Nations is to mind your finances.

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Mind your finances. Build on your finances.

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But how do you actually do that, right? How do you do that?

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You have to have the right people. You have to have the…

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You have to trust those people to build.

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And you have to give them the space to do the job.

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It sounds easy, but it's not. It's very difficult. It takes time.

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But we all have individuals in our First Nation communities who have various expertise

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that they're just waiting for the opportunity to provide that expertise to their own communities.

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I know that. I see it.

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And so, you know, one of the things that I do know, and it's one of those laws that is unwritten.

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It's one of the laws of the universe that I share with my people.

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The risk gets richer and the poor get poorer.

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I don't like the statement necessarily totally, but it is the fact.

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The more you're out there, the more you're building the relationships,

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the more you create, create enterprise and business opportunities.

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People see that, and they want to be associated with that.

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And that's what occurs.

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And so it's incumbent upon leadership to develop relationships,

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federally, provincially, municipally, in the financial sector, to create these opportunities.

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Because the more you think about your goals and your objectives,

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the more opportunity is presented to you.

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And you need to listen to the little voice within that says, this is a good opportunity.

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And the little voice within also says, no, you might want to hold off on this one.

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Yeah. When you talk about relationships, do you think about international relationships

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beyond North America, particularly at this moment?

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Knowing what I know now and knowing when I take a look at the globe,

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when I take a look at the various opportunities in the world,

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there's no reason that First Nation enterprises, First Nation businesses

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can't participate in a big way on the international scene.

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I say this to my colleagues frequently.

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We have the expertise. We have the ability. We have the experience.

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And we have the knowledge and the know-how. We know how business runs.

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We know the various concepts of good business. And we're there.

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And so when you run a good operation, it's just a building.

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It's like a stepping stone to bigger opportunities.

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And that's where we are right now, Ramah.

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Cedar Leaf was another step on that rung.

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And as a result of that step on that rung, there's other opportunities

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that are presenting themselves to Ramah.

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And as long as we continue to operate and manage ourselves properly,

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those opportunities will come.

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So there's no reason why First Nation entities can't be playing

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in the international monetary scene. No reason why.

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Couldn't agree more. And it's more and more important that they do play

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outside of Canada, whether it's trade or investment, access to capital.

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It's a big world out there.

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I guess my own personal philosophy and what I share with a couple of things.

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One is the sales aspect.

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One of the good things that I've learned is the ability to sell.

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And I've gone to economic development conferences.

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I've gone to housing conferences.

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I've gone to chiefs' conferences and social services.

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I've gone to many conferences.

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One of the things that I've never, ever seen as I have traveled to all

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these conferences is that no one has put on a sales 101 program.

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And we know, we know here that if you're not selling,

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you're restricting your cash flow opportunities.

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And so I think that it's critical, it's important for us as leaders

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and our staff to know how to sell.

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When you know how to sell, you create cash flow for your businesses

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and you create opportunity.

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But when you know how to sell, it also works on the other side.

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You know when you're being sold too.

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And that in itself can save you money.

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And so it's important for us as Indigenous leaders to know how to sell

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and sell with integrity, with openness and honesty.

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And so that's a skill that we need to develop across First Nation territory.

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That's great advice and it's a skill I know you have in spades.

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So you should be teaching that, Class 101 and the advanced levels as well.

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Chief, I want to thank you again for taking time out of your day

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to spend a few minutes with us.

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Tell us about some of your varied background, history of Rama

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and bringing us right up to date with what's going on today.

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If I may, I have one more nugget that I want to share with you

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and share with the viewers of the podcast.

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Something that I share with my youth, with my council, with my community

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and anyone that cares to listen to.

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That what you think about, dream about, talk about and write about

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over an extended period of time.

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That what you think about, dream about, write about and talk about

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over an extended period of time.

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It could be 3, 5, 10, 12, 15, 20 years.

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But as long as you're dreaming about it, talking about it, thinking about it

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and writing about it, more times than not, I'm not going to say 100%

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but it's pretty close.

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Dreaming about it, talking about it, writing about it and thinking about it,

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whatever it is, over an extended period of time has to, has to be brought into reality.

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It's a profound statement but I know it to be true

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because that's exactly what has transpired in my own life personally

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and I share that with you.

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Great advice. Thank you for sharing that.

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That is very true.

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And just before we wrap up, do you have any message that you'd like to share

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to our audience whether they're just listening or they're watching

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about the upcoming Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit?

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Yes, get involved.

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Get involved, set your goals and set your goals high.

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And because we know this, that if you don't have goals,

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personally if you don't have goals, chances are you're working for someone who does have goals.

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So set goals, set goals high and go out there and begin to make things happen.

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Learn how to develop good, healthy, strong relationships

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because when you develop good, healthy, strong relationships,

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opportunities reveal themselves through relationships and through, you know,

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how you actually carry yourself.

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You need to attract these opportunities and that's what takes place

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and that's what's taking place for us in the community.

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We've attracted different opportunities by developing the relationships

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and having the right attitude and being open to exploring what is possible in this global world.

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Thank you very much.

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Our viewers will appreciate that. Rob?

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Absolutely. Again, appreciate your time, Chief.

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And I'll just say Niaowen Cohen, thank you very much.

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Miigwech.

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See you soon.

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Take care.

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Thank you to Chief Ted Williams for sharing his insights with us

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and thank you for viewing and listening.

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Be sure to share, subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast channel.

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Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2025 Summit taking place on the 10th of April.

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Thanks for listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.