Welcome to Drum Beats, the must listen to podcast for investors interested in Indigenous
investment in Canada.
Born from the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit, the show focuses on the intersection
of Indigenous economic strategies and investment opportunities.
I'm Mark McNacca and my co-host Robert Branton are joined today by Chief Derricka, Chief
of the Chiactan First Nation and the Deputy Chairperson of the First Nations Finance Authority,
referred to as FNFA.
He has been involved in economic development and finance, working to secure capital competitive
rates, close funding gaps, and explore new ways to bring global investment into Canada
through FNFA and other channels.
His work supports the growth of First Nations economies and strengthens the role in Canada's
financial investment market.
Join us as we explore how these critical conversations are reshaping economic development across
Canada.
Chief Derricka, it is such a great honour for you to be with Rob and I again.
Thank you very much for joining us today.
Good morning, Chief.
It's great to see you and thanks for taking the time to be with us today.
Yeah, it's great to see you guys again.
Really good to touch base with you and Rob again, Mark.
It's looking forward to this year's summit and looking forward to today's podcast to
kind of give some insights and some input on what's going on in Canada.
Wow, a lot, right?
For a country that's not necessarily in the news, but just coming back to last year, not
too long ago, about nine months ago when you came over for the first summit, that was really
great and it was a different time and a different world that we're in.
US presidency has changed and that's changing all kinds of dynamics.
Canada is going to be having an election soon at the federal level at some point.
I think one of the other things is just in terms of the Indigenous peoples in Canada,
you can speak to this better than I, you can see such a divergence between Canada and other
countries just even the past number of months of how things are progressing.
Yeah, absolutely.
There's so many, so much opportunities that are coming down, lack of a better term, the
pipeline.
And for resources, for economic, right?
For resources, for economic.
Who paid you to say that?
Right?
No doubt.
Perfect timing, wasn't it?
Yeah.
That was good.
That works, right?
And I think they're there, right?
Part of it is these equity ownership stakes.
Part of it is governance and projects or it's a blend between two.
And we're looking at larger scale investments now and First Nations are de-risking these
projects and I think that's going to speed up processes.
And we see, as you mentioned, the landscape of politics is changing the investment climate
as well.
Seeing that, as you mentioned, down south from us, we're going to have to start looking
at investing heavily into our own economies.
And that's going to be through a lot of the First Nations engagement.
Yes, which is actually a great opportunity.
Somebody was talking about Canada goes through these moments that the country really has
to be almost put in a corner to make changes.
So if you come back to when Confederation first occurred and then during World War II,
there was a pivot away from being part of what was then the British Empire as part of
the Lenin-Lease program to be a conduit for all the resources necessary for the war in
Europe.
And then we had free trade back in the early 90s.
You were probably too young to remember that, but there wasn't always...
Yeah, I was a little young.
It started out as free trade just between Canada and the US before it became NAFTA.
And I remember those discussions and Canada had been formed under our first prime ministers,
MacDonald and Laurier with a tariff barrier to protect the domestic economy.
And this was a huge, huge debate in the 90s.
And Canada went through a terrible time.
There's very few Canadian retailers left because they couldn't compete with the US.
And we went from a protected economy to an open global trading economy.
I think we've become slightly more dependent on the US over time, but these changes take
place and now we're in a great spot because we're faced with that again and the indigenous
peoples have a seat at the table.
You have your rights.
You have your approach of how you want to do business.
You're coming in as equal partners, if not the lead partner, depending on what's happening.
So I think this is just a great moment for Canada to be the country that it could be.
Right?
Yep.
No, I completely agree.
I think you're right.
I think that ideology that, yeah, we've been kind of back into a corner.
Canada has.
We kind of have to now go to the global market.
And we've been trying to do that for several years now on the First Nations front.
But I think now it's now become bigger than just the First Nations.
It's a Canadian issue.
And actually, it's a good time.
I was on a panel the other night, two nights ago, and there was a lot of the discussion
was around supporting the economic growth of Canada and a lot of it's through First
Nations in that understanding what's going on in the political landscape.
We do have to look to global markets.
We do have to look to new initiatives and different avenues to accessing capital and
getting capital to Canada to really meet the investment climate and the needs of all Canadians
and our economy to be doing what we have to do to protect our own assets in our own country.
Yes, absolutely.
Agree completely, Chief Derek.
Why don't you tell us a little bit about the First Nations Finance Authority?
You wear several hats and one of them is your involvement with the FNFA.
Yeah, the FNFA.
I've been fortunate enough to be a part of the FNFA for oh, five, six years now.
And was the deputy chair for the last couple of years.
And now in February, I'll be stepping into the chair role as well at the First Nations
Finance Authority.
And in that work really excites me.
I think a lot of the capacity and the ability to support First Nations growth as well as
First Nations economic growth is coming through the First Nations Finance Authority.
We've surpassed over $2 billion in loans out to First Nations.
And now we just did a $650 million debenture about a month ago.
And we know that with the investment climate in the direction it's going, we will be looking
at doing debentures of that stature more regularly now.
And then looking at, you know, we need to, we have been accessing the global markets,
but we will be needing to continue to expand that Rolodex of our investors globally to
meet our demand.
We know the excess amount of resource projects and renewable energy projects that will have
to be done in Canada in the short future.
And with the political will that we will have federally and provincially, I think the opportunity
is absolutely there.
And part of the FNFA, the First Nations Financial Management Board, and these institutions where
I do work nationally is all about building that capacity for the First Nations, building
the internal controls, accessing the capital at a competitive rate, and being able to really
capitalize and be involved in these opportunities that are going to be coming.
Because it's not just drinking from a fire hose anymore, it's drinking from the actual
fire hydrant.
And that's what we're seeing right now.
And really, we need the capital to be able to keep up with the pace and the demand and
being able to meet the economic growth needs of not only First Nations, but Canada.
Where are the investors coming from for the adventures, Chief?
So we can't necessarily completely disclose who, but we have access from all international
markets from the Swiss, the Chinese, to the South American, to all over the world.
And really, now what I'm really looking forward to for this summit as well is now bridging
that economic gap and that capital gap from the UK to Canada.
And hopefully, that can be done through the First Nations Finance Authority.
But that's not the only way.
I think there's other ways that this can be done as well.
And there's other exciting things that I've been working on back home and meeting with
individuals like the Hungerford Group, who have a new seven generations capital that
I believe will be coming to hopefully coming to the summit.
And hopefully, I'll be able to talk a bit about my experience with them as well, because
we began to discuss how we can work together in that avenue as well.
Because again, it's really diversifying.
It's looking at the various ways that we can get global capital to Canada.
And that's not just through the Finance Authority, that's through organizations like Seven Generations
Capital, that's through conventional avenues as well.
So it's really now, I think you're right.
We've been backed into a corner and now we have to act.
Yes.
Very, very true.
And I think just coming back for our listeners and some of them, of course, didn't attend
the conference and have a chance to meet you before.
So your nation is based in British Columbia and the FLFA is based in Ottawa, is it?
So yeah, my community, Chiactan First Nation or Chiacto, that's our Halkomelem name, we're
based in Chilliwack, British Columbia, about an hour and a half east of Vancouver.
We are in a very advantageous location, if you want to put it that way, for First Nations
community work, urban in that sense, where we've been able to capitalize on building
our own economy and make sure we're building up our own capacity.
And the FNFA, First Nations Finance Authority, is a national institution and we have two
offices, one in Ottawa and then one in Kelowna, British Columbia as well.
And our board represents seats from all across the country.
So we have representation from each province or we try to make sure we get representation
from each province because we do land right across the country.
So we make sure we have that representation on the board so that we do have that acknowledgement
and that voice from each of our individual regions as well.
And all the institutions now that are really the critical factor to supporting First Nations
involvement in a lot of these projects is our national institutions that are supporting
the national economic growth of First Nations.
And that to me is making the biggest impact.
Which is huge because when we talk about the number of Indigenous nations across the country,
remind me, is it 500, 600?
Yeah, we're over 600.
So I think it depends on who you ask, but last was 603, 607 or depends on some are more
independent now.
So yeah, it's over 600.
And in BC alone though, we have 203 or 200 and someone as well.
So it's a different dynamic as well, right?
Considering that treaties were settled from the East Coast making their way west.
And by the time we got to BC or the settlers got to BC, it wasn't their priority.
Got lazy.
Yeah, I got lazy.
You're right.
Yeah.
And we ended up with far too many individual Indian Act bans.
And it's created, you know, a lot have said it's created confusion, but I think it's also
an opportunity.
And I see it as an opportunity.
And we see some of the projects specifically here in BC now, we're bringing together, you
know, 30, 40 communities to work actively together on these projects.
And it's possible.
It's being done.
Yeah.
Yes.
And you know, when Rob and I have been talking about the conference and the summit and what
we did this year and last year and what we're going to be doing this year, one of the things
we've talked about is demystify, de-risk and develop.
So demystifying is to explain to people, you know, how do you work with indigenous peoples?
What's the process?
What's behind it?
Right.
And we hear a lot of negative news, not so much now, but in the past.
And you know, people remember, nobody remembers the good news, right?
They remember all the bad news and stuff that came out.
So they have concerns about that.
But the whole process now is about how do you de-risk?
And that's by working with the indigenous peoples as partners, right?
And then it's developed, then you go out and develop the project, which might take five,
10 years, as you know, very well.
Yeah.
And hopefully we can do it sooner.
You know, Rob and Mark, I think it's really important to acknowledge some of the work
that is being done right now.
And we're really creating a template for what is possible, right?
And I think that's, and over these first couple of projects, of course, are the hardest ones
to get across the line, I think.
But I, you know, from that, I think we're going to see, you know, a process that's been
established that works, you know, one that we're involved in right now.
We have 40, 40 some odd communities involved, and we've been able to set up more of a smaller
committee that is stick handling the negotiations on behalf of the larger collective group.
So acknowledging that to investors and making sure that the individual is looking to get
their capital to Canada, know that there is a de-risking factor to this.
We do have the sophistication now and the ability to set up these working groups and
committees that are able to be the negotiators alongside, you know, the professionals that
are needed to really de-risk and do the due diligence on these projects.
But we have a process and a system that works for bringing together, whether it's, you know,
one community, 10 communities, 30 or 40 communities, we now know how to do it.
And I think it's only going to get easier and it can only get better and quicker.
And I think we will be able to work in tandem to make sure that at the end of the day, sometimes
that permitting process is what takes the longest as well.
And if we're at the table, we can help with that as well.
Yes.
And we've had some other guests on the podcast who've talked about how much smoother it goes
if you go in there and work with the Indigenous peoples right from the beginning, they become
your partner, they'll carry the ball in many cases.
Absolutely.
And they're going to make things happen, right, because they have a vested interest then.
And I guess coming back a bit to the treaties, because I understand, you know, between 1701
and 1963, there were 70 treaties signed between the British Crown and King Charles is also
the King of Canada represented by the Governor General and 70 treaties between 364 First
Nations.
But now there's a new treaty process.
And how does that differ from the historic approach?
Yeah, I think it's challenging.
The new treaty process is more of a jurisdiction based process.
Of course, there's a land component, there's a cash settlement component to the treaty
process, but a lot of it hinges on more or less the divulgence of jurisdictions to the
First Nations communities.
And you know, historically, the treaties were more based on land or based on a relationship
that was defined in an agreement and meant to be lived out.
You know, the intentions may have been good at the time, but I don't think they were
fully enacted.
And that's why you see a lot of the different court cases or the specific claims or the
various legal actions that have had to take place over the last several decades in Canada
with First Nations, because it's been challenging the implementation of the treaties in Canada
has been really open to interpretation.
And I think that's part of the challenges with historic treaties.
But the reality with historic treaties is a large land base came with it most of the
time, you know, wasn't necessarily their entire traditional territory.
No, but it's still they had, you know, at least an established land base where now if
you look in BC, that's part of the problem is no very little treaties have been signed.
And what has happened with settlement is now we see most of the time in treaties or you're
negotiating for what we call provincial crown land.
And most of that land is not in in and around urban settings.
Most of it is in mountains or in uninhabited areas.
So we're having the challenge of negotiating for some territorial land back, but it's not
necessarily going to help us boost economies yet, like maybe one day.
And part of what my advocacy is, is it's looking at a different approach to a treaty relationship.
And a lot of the work that I do is trying to look at and more of an economic treaty
first, looking at how do we first start enabling and building and providing the capacity and
the toolkit to First Nations to ensure they're able to build up revenue streams, build up
an economic base, both on and off reserve and both, you know, involvement in resource
projects or territorial taxation, whatever it may be.
And then when the nations are ready, they can begin to talk about the jurisdictions.
And when I say jurisdictions, I mean, a lot of them are in the program jurisdiction basis,
what, you know, what the government is trying to divulge.
It's through health or children and family services or justice or whatever it may be.
That is a lot of the treaty negotiations now, because quite frankly, we have some of the
national institutions that provide First Nations with the land jurisdictions are finally there.
You know, through Land Code, through tax commissions, through the First Nations Finance Authority.
So that's why for nations like mine, we haven't been as keen on talking about the new BC Treaty
Commission process, because it's more of a program jurisdiction based discussion and
not necessarily an economic discussion.
So what I do is look at the economic treaties now.
And then we could talk about the program treaties after.
Right.
And that obviously varies across the country.
Totally.
So many projects across the country, Chief, maybe you could give us an idea of some of
the major projects that FNFA in particular has been involved in.
Yeah, I mean, we've seen seen a lot of them over the last couple of years.
So maybe I'll put on my First Nations Finance Authority hat first and, and seeing from a
national lens, we've seen very successful large investment projects that we've been
able to support.
One was being the Clearwater, make that deal.
They involved a number of First Nations on the East Coast purchasing one of the largest
seafood industries in North America.
And since then, what we've seen is that industry and that company, its growth, they've had
their best years since the First Nations have purchased this company.
And it's also de-risked some of the industry as well.
And we've also seen the stigma that came along with prior to the First Nations purchasing
that, that industry, it was always a fight for fish rights or fight for access.
And now since owning and controlling the market, it's really calmed the societal differences.
And we see that in just one of the deals.
Another deal is the Heysla LNG project and really what we've seen in that, and I'm sure
we'll hear more about this in London as well, which is exciting to hear from Chief Crystal,
who's coming out from Heysla, I believe.
And I'm really looking forward to getting to see her again, because I've got to see
her over the years as well.
And being able to hear firsthand as well the impacts that her community is going to feel
from that, but from the finance authority side, that was a massive deal for us to be
a part of.
A $400 million loan out from us and in Korea, it'll be up to a billion dollar deal.
And really being able to see the Heysla take a significant ownership, I believe 50% or
51% of the ownership of the CDRLNG project.
That's the impact that that's going to have in their community is massive.
It's massive.
And it also enabled the Heysla to do their due diligence, to enable them to listen to
their community's needs and to be able to reflect that in the project and be able to
now have a community that I believe they're, they need to do a referendum.
And I believe they had 90% of their community vote in favor of this project because of,
yeah, like unheard of, right?
And really that to me is the biggest de-risking factor that any proponent can take today and
say that deal shows exactly what is possible when working early and working often with
First Nations because when you get 90% of a community voting in favor of a project,
that is as clear as a mandate as you're ever going to get.
And that will speed up the process, that will speed up the permitting, and that will speed
up all the bureaucracies that you have to go through to get projects like this underway.
And it will in fact produce the investors return that they're wanting to see and the
de-risking factor that investors want to see.
So I think those are two very real recent live and tangible examples of what's going
on across Canada.
And then even if you look back, you know, on an individual, so that's the macro, if
you're looking at a micro level from an individual community like mine, there's a lot of the
land back strategy.
So we're now I mentioned in treaties, typically we can only negotiate for provincial crown
land.
So what we're trying to do now is purchase land in and around our reserves.
So we're creating urban reserves so that we can actually develop our own economies in
these urban settings as well.
So I just did say the additional reserve process usually takes anywhere from three to 30 years.
I hadn't done all the legal side done in six months and the bureaucracy side done in three
months.
And because of our capacity, because of our jurisdictions and because of political will.
And that to me is another investment opportunity that I think is going to be a fantastic avenue
for capital to be helping support First Nations economic growth and in turn support Canada's
economic growth.
Because what we do when we get these lands is we need to provide critical infrastructure,
we need to provide housing, we need to be providing, you know, the things that most
Canadians take for granted is what First Nations are catching up on and having to invest in.
Right.
So that's great.
And you've mentioned about Clearwater.
So at the summit, you know, we're going to have Chief Terry Paul over to talk about that
deal.
And as you know, with Chief Crystal Smith, we've had her as well.
So that's she's been on a podcast and she's coming over.
So we are going to cross the country, hopefully on the three oceans, right?
The Atlantic, the Pacific and the Arctic.
And I think so that's really good.
Second point is, can you explain a bit about what Crown lands are?
Because you know, I think it's a very Canadian concept.
Okay, in the UK, yes, the King and the Royal Family have their lands, but the Crown
concept is not really well understood and it's caused a long term issue in the timber
trade between Canada and the US because the Americans certainly don't understand what
Crown lands are because they think, you know, if it's government owns, it's worth nothing.
You know, it only has value.
Can you talk a little bit about what that definition is of Crown lands and how that
works provincial and federal?
Yeah, you know, it's a good question, Mark, around Crown lands in Canada and provincial
Crown lands.
So you're right, it's very confusing.
It can cause a lot of bureaucracies.
And typically what happens in with Crown land is it's, you know, it's forestry, it's mining,
it's national parks or provincial parks or it's land that's protected in a certain nature,
depending on what it is.
And some of the challenges that we have with the, it's underlying title of the Crown essentially,
right?
Like the Crown has the underlying title to the land and then there's provincial Crown
lands, so the province has jurisdictions through their ministries, whether it's waterlands,
natural resources, forestry, you know, you name it, various ministries can have different
easements or assessments or different overlaps of jurisdictions over one piece of land.
So it creates a lot of confusion, you're right, or it creates a lot of bureaucracies to get
through.
And a lot of the time when you're talking about tenures for resource projects or for
mining projects or renewable energies or whatever it may be, you're dealing with a lot of overlapping
interests that touch various ministries, both provincially and federally, depending on what
you're doing.
So it does cause a lot of bureaucratic hoops to jump through.
If and a lot of why it's such a strategic advantage to working with First Nations, because
Canada with UNDRIP, United Nations Declarations on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and specifically
now in BC with DRIP UP, which is the act respecting the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous
Peoples, it puts a lot of the decision-making authority in the hands of First Nations, which
is a lot of the studies are showing that a lot of Canadians are supportive of that in
a sense because we try to be stewards of the land and try to make sure that when projects
are done, they're from an Indigenous lens and thinking about that seven generations.
So that's why it's so integral now to work with First Nations in and around any projects
that are provincial crown land and pretty much any project that's going to be done in
Canada, whether it's resources or renewable energies or mining or whatever it may be,
is going to have an aspect of provincial crown land.
Meaning, you will have to navigate the Canada energy regulating process.
You will have to navigate provincial permitting processes.
You will have to navigate certain bureaucratic processes that require First Nations free
prior and informed consent.
And I think one of the things that people don't really appreciate about Canada is the
fact that our provinces control the natural resources in the country.
That's not a federal jurisdiction for the most part.
Yes, exactly.
It's a jurisdiction that's divulged from Canada to the provinces.
Yeah.
Correct.
And coming back in Confederation in 1867, one of the objectives of the British North
America Act, and we now have our own constitution, but the structure of that was looking at the
American experience with the Civil War.
And the idea was, let's have a strong federal government and weak provinces.
We didn't want strong states and Canada has provinces.
Actually, we've ended up with the reverse because the gay government has very limited
powers, foreign affairs, defense.
But we don't even have the same health standards across the country.
If you're trying to go from BC to Ontario, you need to make sure you've got your health
coverage because it's at the provincial level, I suppose the American experience.
So I think that's one of the other dynamics people need to understand.
And I think that reinforces this, what I would call localization, because you have to work
with the local communities.
Those people as otherwise, everybody, you're from BC, right?
That will come into your story in different places where necessarily in other places it
might not.
So you're a Canadian, oh, but I'm from Manitoba, I'm from BC, and I'm from Quebec.
And that all tells a different story, right?
Big time, big time.
And every province has a different political outlook on resource projects.
I think now, as we mentioned before, things are changing on the political side, understanding
that we need to invest in resources or renewable energy.
So whatever it may be, and British Columbia is very in an advantageous position to open
up that investment.
And I think now what we've heard from our provincial partners is that the appetite is
open now for those investments.
And I think you've seen it in Alberta.
Alberta has been very open to resource projects and still are.
And you see it a bit more in the Prairie provinces as well with various projects that are going
on.
And you see a huge success in some of the First Nations partnerships that are heavily
involved in mining industry in Saskatchewan and in Manitoba.
And they're doing extremely well.
Yes.
In fact, we're having Denison Mines is coming over.
We have a strong, fantastic contingent.
Yes, they're going to be talking about English River and their projects.
And there's a lot going on across the country without a doubt.
What about, you know, we do have provincial barriers.
You know, you can trade more freely in the European Union than you can in Canada.
And again, this is one of these moments, maybe these barriers are being addressed.
What about the indigenous peoples?
Do they, do you have a view on what should be done?
Are you trying to break down those provincial barriers as well to have more trade opportunities?
It doesn't really impact the same way.
Well, yes and no.
Like there, there is some projects that do, right?
There is, you know, linear projects that are coming from Alberta through to British Columbia,
where we have to break down those barriers to the provinces working together.
And I know recently, I understand the premiers did meet and did talk about how they can work
together.
Now, how real was that discussion?
I don't know, right?
I'm not privy to those ones, but I do think from our First Nations lens, absolutely, I
think there needs to be cross provincial discussions that help support the indigenous inclusion
and, you know, by border inclusion from province to province as well.
Because, you know, that is one of the only ways to opening up some of our corridors and
resources is having to work from some of the, you know, interior of our provinces, our middle
provinces that they're going to have to get to the coast somehow, right, for some of the
resources.
And that will require, you know, provincial discussions, you know, in multi-provincial
leadership discussions to how will they work together to make sure that those resources
are getting from province to the coast.
And that will require indigenous inclusion as well.
Great.
So we're really looking forward to coming back to London.
And this time, you're coming back with your freedom of the city.
That's right.
Yeah, I guess I missed the sheep walk, but I'll have to come back for that one.
You'll have to come back for that.
And you get to carry your cutlass or sword through the city and no one will register
any complaints with you.
And it's, we don't talk much about that day.
And these days, and I'm sure you're never inebriated, but if you were, you would have
the freedom to wander wherever you did in the city.
I don't know once you get outside the square mile, what they do with you, probably lock
you up.
But I'll make sure I bring my little booklet and make sure if I'm right.
And I'll stay in the London city.
I'll make sure I stay there and I'll have it with me and it won't leave.
Yes.
Well, don't worry.
Your name's on the list.
So you don't need to carry your booklet.
You just tell them you have the freedom of the city and you will be looked after.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
That's absolutely great.
Rob and I have really enjoyed having you on the program today.
Great to have you here.
Yes, chief.
We really appreciate your time today.
I know you have a very busy schedule, so much appreciated and looking forward to welcoming
you back in London in just a couple of months now.
No, I really appreciate it, Rob and Mark.
I really enjoyed getting to know you guys over the last couple of years and getting
to work with you and your team.
And I think you guys are great advocates for what we're trying to achieve in Canada and
with First Nations.
And I really think, I really do believe that these next couple of years are going to be
transformational for Canadians, for Indigenous people of Canada and for the global investment
market.
Yes.
Thank you very much for being with us today.
Thanks chief.
Yeah.
Thanks Mark and Rob.
Thank you to Chief Derek Gap for sharing his insights with us and thank you for viewing
and listening.
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