1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,960 Welcome to Drum Beats, the must-listen to podcast for investors interested in Indigenous 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:07,920 investment in Canada. 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,320 Born from the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit, the show focuses on the intersection 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,840 of Indigenous economic strategies and investment opportunities. 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:21,040 I'm Mark McNacca and my co-hosts Robert Brant and I are joined today by Mark Cevestre, senior 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:26,520 advisor Mokwete, as well as the former founding member of the National Aboriginal Trust Officers 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,480 Association, commonly referred to as NTOA. 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:35,080 With his expertise in Indigenous policy, he explains the importance of shared values in 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:39,820 Indigenous investment, training opportunities for Indigenous communities through procurement, 10 00:00:39,820 --> 00:00:44,200 and helping non-Indigenous investors make the most of their portfolios. 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,520 Join us as we explore how these critical conversations are reshaping economic development across 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:49,520 Canada. 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:55,560 Mark Cevestre, thanks very much for joining us and welcome to Drum Beats. 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:56,960 Thank you, nice to be here. 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:57,960 Great to have you. 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:05,720 You've worn several hats over the years, Mark, in and around investing by Indigenous, non-Indigenous 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,480 organizations, communities. 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:14,400 So it's a real pleasure to have you and spend a bit of time with us and sort of talk a little 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,920 bit about some issues at the forefront. 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,560 But before we get started, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. 21 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:23,560 Where are you from? 22 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,920 And what are you sitting today? 23 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:26,920 Well thanks for having me. 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:27,920 I'm Mark Cevestre. 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,120 I'm Haudenosaunee Mohawk. 26 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:36,840 I live here in my home on the Six Nations of the Grand River, First Nation in Ontario. 27 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,520 We're about an hour south of Toronto. 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:45,600 I'm on the 1784 Haldimantrack Grant Lands. 29 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,800 Our community supported the British during the American Revolution and lost our homelands 30 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,800 in Upper New York State. 31 00:01:53,800 --> 00:02:00,600 Rob, your family and my family were probably pretty close at the time around Lake Champlain. 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:09,000 But in 1784, we finally were given the land ceded by the Mississaugas, the Adishinaabe 33 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,080 people, granted to us six miles on either side of the Grand River in Southern Ontario. 34 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,000 So originally 950,000 acres. 35 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,380 And today, Six Nations sits on 48,000 acres. 36 00:02:20,380 --> 00:02:23,440 So there was some erosion of our lands. 37 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,600 But we've been able to make a lot and do a lot here. 38 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,680 I'm a Mount Allison University graduate. 39 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:39,880 I went out east to New Brunswick to play football, the North American football. 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:47,040 And spent some time with the federal government out there working in indigenous fairs and 41 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:52,880 economic development and ultimately moved back, got married to a beautiful Mi'kmaq lady 42 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,520 from Cape Breton in Nova Scotia. 43 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:01,760 We moved back to Ontario where I was the branch manager for a Bank of Montreal branch that 44 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:06,800 was established on a First Nation outside of London, Ontario. 45 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:12,360 And in 1999, I took a role on as the general manager for the Mississaugas at the Credit 46 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,400 First Nation Community Trust, which was a land claim settlement trust. 47 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:22,520 And we get to invest the funds in the publicly traded markets and utilize the revenues for 48 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:23,720 community projects. 49 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,640 So that's where a lot of the work that I've been doing over the last 25 years comes from. 50 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:33,000 And looking forward to taking you through a bit of that journey today. 51 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,000 Excellent. 52 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,040 Our families and ancestors were very close at the time. 53 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:45,000 And in fact, Mark's ancestors were also close to all of us, weren't they, Mark? 54 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,200 Yes, really interesting conversation. 55 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,880 Rob and I met because Rob was up on stage and I saw the name and introduced myself and 56 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,520 asked him, are you a descendant of Chief Joseph Brandt? 57 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:01,000 Because my ancestor fought under the leadership of Chief Joseph Brandt as a Brandt loyalist 58 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,560 in the Niagara area. 59 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:10,120 They came, all the Scottish background came up from New York. 60 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,520 I can't pronounce the particular name, but they all came up and brothers fought on the 61 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,160 both side, but he chose the right side to fight on. 62 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:23,280 And we all remain loyal to the dictator across the pond as opposed to down the street. 63 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:27,160 And that's proved relevant in the past few years, once again. 64 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,200 So that was great to hear that story. 65 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,680 It just shows those ties that come back. 66 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:37,400 And Mark, this was really the reason why we decided to do this after Rob explained, you 67 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,440 know, firsthand, because a lot of Canadians read about it. 68 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:46,640 But if you don't hear it personally, you don't really understand in depth the issues. 69 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,040 And, you know, we said we needed to do something about that. 70 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,080 So that's how we set up the summit. 71 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,160 So it's great to have you here on the podcast. 72 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,160 So welcome. 73 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:57,160 Thank you. 74 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:03,520 And the Mount A football program, I guess that explains the football helmets in the 75 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:04,520 background. 76 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:05,520 That's right. 77 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,520 Yeah. 78 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,720 I've been on the Board of Regents for the school and very happy to try to it's very 79 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:20,080 small university in rural New Brunswick, but it is a very powerful educational institution 80 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:26,000 that has been listed as the number one undergraduate universe, small undergraduate university in 81 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,920 Canada for about 30, almost almost 30 of the last 35 years. 82 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:36,320 So we're very proud of our school and tried to do the best we can to continue to produce 83 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:37,320 great students. 84 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:43,440 Well, well done to you for giving back the way you are when you're wearing so many other 85 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,400 hats at the same time. 86 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:46,400 Yeah. 87 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,320 Take the football helmet off for a second. 88 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:50,320 Yeah. 89 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:56,240 You mentioned Mississauga is of the credit First Nation and the community trust. 90 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:02,720 That must have been one of the early trusts and and we around when it was established. 91 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,120 Well, I came in two years later. 92 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,120 It was settled in April of 1997. 93 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,400 It was a 12.7 million dollar settlement for a 200 acre parcel of land and along the Credit 94 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:20,320 River and what is today Mississauga, Ontario, obviously named after the Mississauga people. 95 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:26,000 So they moved, the government moved the community to where they are today, just adjacent to 96 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:33,120 six nations here along Highway six between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie. 97 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:39,200 And at the time, apparently they had forgotten to put their funds for the land transactions 98 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:40,840 in the bank account of the community. 99 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:45,200 So 150 years later, it was now worth 12.7 million dollars. 100 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:54,080 And the idea was that you take that funds and set it aside in a way that the community 101 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,200 can't erode it quickly. 102 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:02,280 And so investing it in the publicly traded markets was the idea and a trust fund. 103 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:04,160 So it's sort of separate funds. 104 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:10,080 You have to keep them accounted for separately from the First Nation monies. 105 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:16,760 In this case, the community wanted to have a community board of trustees that manage 106 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,200 those funds so it's separate from any decision chief and council would make. 107 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,900 So they set that up. 108 00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:29,220 So two years later in October of 1999, I just happened to be in a position where my wife 109 00:07:29,220 --> 00:07:36,320 had started to, was working for a gentleman who was a trustee and realized we were moving 110 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,200 from Toronto to around this area. 111 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,800 And he said, well, we need a general manager and Mark, you've got that background that 112 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,880 would be perfect for it. 113 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,040 It was government experience and banking background. 114 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:54,520 So I stepped in in 1999 and it was about just over 13 million dollars at the time. 115 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,320 And the idea was that we had to create a business plan, how we're going to utilize the funds 116 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:08,600 and so got that all set up and realized that it was a big learning curve in terms of managing 117 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:14,240 community monies and dealing with investment managers and how we're investing the funds. 118 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:19,720 So we had got everything established so then the revenue that we generate, the interest 119 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:24,320 in dividends, capital gains each year would be going to what we call a revenue fund. 120 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,080 And that's the money that we can then fund community projects. 121 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:32,940 So we have the chief and councilor band department applying to us for funds and our trustees 122 00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:35,120 get to make the decision on what's funded. 123 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:44,160 So we've been funding a lot of education related graduation awards and supports for students 124 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,120 and tutoring and literacy programs. 125 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,640 We also fund a lot of cultural and traditional materials. 126 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,440 The Mississauga people are the traditional landholders and rights holders for the Toronto 127 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:05,120 GTA area and so they really wanted to establish that kind of history for the peoples in the 128 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:06,120 Toronto area. 129 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,900 So we support a lot of the work that they do in those areas and other things like infrastructure 130 00:09:10,900 --> 00:09:16,760 and water lines, housing, those types of things that we fund. 131 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:22,480 So yeah, it's been interesting and then through the journey, my own personal journey there, 132 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:29,560 we recognize that a lot of times this was one of the early trust funds and indigenous 133 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:33,000 trust funds in Canada and a lot more were happening. 134 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:41,440 So I was in contact with a couple other indigenous trust fund managers and we recognized there 135 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:47,440 was a need for a national organization that shared our story, shared our experiences and 136 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:54,080 so that this community's coming forward, we're having to reinvent the wheel every time some 137 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,040 money was coming into a community for a settlement. 138 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:03,040 We wanted to bring together not only the communities that were investing or had trusts, but we 139 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,360 also brought in the people who we dealt with on a regular basis. 140 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:11,380 So the investment management community, the lawyers, the accountants, the advisory services 141 00:10:11,380 --> 00:10:16,640 that we would utilize to help set these things up was critical because we needed to be better 142 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:23,040 aware and understand the industry itself as an indigenous community. 143 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:28,000 So we had to create proper expectations of what these funds could do and how they could 144 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,640 be invested. 145 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:36,440 And we also wanted to help the industry have a better understanding of who we were and 146 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,380 why we were investing. 147 00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:43,920 And so once we got that set up, we created the National Aboriginal Trust Officers Association 148 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:50,320 in 2006 and started holding our own national conferences. 149 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:55,000 We developed an online training program and did some regional workshops. 150 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:02,360 So that was very helpful to a lot of communities who are then settling claims with Canada or 151 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:08,120 the provinces and just realistically helping them understand how if you wanted to go into 152 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,480 a trust fund, then how can you set it up? 153 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:16,120 How could it be more representative of the community and the needs of the particular 154 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,700 communities that were involved? 155 00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:22,640 So it was quite a satisfying journey at that point. 156 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,560 I bet. 157 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:29,400 Was there ever pressure with the trust fund of the Mississaugas of the Credit Fund to 158 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,720 disperse money more quickly? 159 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,160 That yeah. 160 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:44,320 Give them credit for organizing the trust fund in a way that is separate from the politics. 161 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,480 But there's also a lot of foresight there to set up a fund that hopefully will continue 162 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,400 to benefit those people for years and years to come. 163 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,120 Yeah. 164 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,120 It happens. 165 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,960 And those discussions are really becoming pretty prevalent today with newer settlements 166 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:01,080 in Canada. 167 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,400 The pressure on the elected leadership to do upper capita distribution. 168 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:11,760 A lot of these settlements are all distributed amongst the current band members. 169 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,560 I really think there's a lot more discussion that needs to happen in terms of what you 170 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:21,800 really want to do with these funds because everybody kind of has that need within them 171 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,520 to say, well, I want my portion of it. 172 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,720 Mississaugas of the Credit did settle a second land claim in 2011 for the Greater Toronto 173 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:37,160 area and they distributed quite a bit out of it at that point. 174 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,280 And then they went completely the other way. 175 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,240 Instead of a community board of trustees, they hired a corporate trustee who really 176 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,440 just invests the money themselves and then distributes all the revenue at the end of 177 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,760 the year to the council who then have some parameters around how they would invest that. 178 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,240 But that really put a lot of pressure on the community. 179 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,600 Then they actually wanted to have a discussion about what they were going to do with our 180 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:02,600 little trust. 181 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,480 And we were really proud of it. 182 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:11,120 We've grown that $13 million trust to almost $29 million today. 183 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,760 We funded $9 million worth of community projects. 184 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:21,880 And the one really important thing that we did, so through the work of the National Aboriginal 185 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:27,000 Trust Officers Association, we connected with a group called SHARE, which is the Shareholder 186 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:33,120 Association for Research and Education, and they are an advocacy group for pension funds 187 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,120 and foundations and high net worth individuals. 188 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,240 And they were really interested in connecting with us to bring in the Indigenous component 189 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:41,240 in it. 190 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:48,040 Because what we were really realizing was that we're investing and bringing with, hiring 191 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,840 quality investment managers. 192 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,080 But unless we tell them who we are, we're investing with their values. 193 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:03,720 And their values are essentially make as much money as possible with the wide universe of 194 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,120 investments that are out there. 195 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,600 So we could potentially be investing in companies that are doing great harm to our communities, 196 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,720 both environmentally and culturally and rights-wise. 197 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:20,240 So in the connection with SHARE, I'll never forget Peter Chapman, who is the executive 198 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,560 director at the time, says, you can have that values conversation with your managers because 199 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,360 they're already doing it for their other clients. 200 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,960 And I said, how do you mean? 201 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:35,080 He says, you don't tell me that they're telling their religious clients and faith-based pension 202 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:40,960 funds to invest in defense industry or alcohol or anything like that that's completely contrary 203 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,460 to their values. 204 00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:44,480 So you can have that conversation with them. 205 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:45,480 And I thought that was great. 206 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,160 That's really what I needed to know. 207 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:54,400 And around 2016, when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report came out in Canada on the 208 00:14:54,400 --> 00:15:00,480 residential schools and the impact on Indigenous communities, a lot of Canadians were, OK, 209 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,240 well, what does that really mean? 210 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:08,640 And we had the foresight to say, well, let's create this organization. 211 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:13,160 And we've called it the Reconciliation and Responsible Investment Initiative, a partnership 212 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,320 between SHARE and NATOA. 213 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:21,840 And for Indigenous investors, it was helping them understand the link between their cultural, 214 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:28,200 traditional values, the values that have managed them in their communities and managing their 215 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,840 wealth, managing their traditions and their investment policy. 216 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,560 Because we really saw that there was a link. 217 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:43,600 And we had to go and it was really a discussion about talk amongst yourselves, your elders, 218 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,560 your community, what are the values that run your community and manage your community? 219 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,040 Now, let's incorporate them into your investment policy so that we can share with the investment 220 00:15:53,040 --> 00:16:00,480 manager to show that what goes into the portfolio is really important. 221 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,800 What's the impact of the companies we had? 222 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:09,760 One of my former chairpersons at Mississauga, a wonderful lady named Julie LaForme, unfortunately 223 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:15,280 she's passed, but she really made the comment that stuck with me a long time that says, 224 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,960 we can invest and make a profit, but at what cost? 225 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:24,280 If the cost is our rights and our culture and our integrity, then we're really failing 226 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,640 our people. 227 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,360 So we put that together. 228 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,960 And the other part of Reconciliation Responsible Investment Initiative was helping Canadians 229 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:39,640 who are now understanding that reconciliation with Indigenous peoples are important. 230 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,400 They wanted to be able to utilize their invested funds in an appropriate way. 231 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:52,800 So we were providing documents and guidelines and some published materials to really help 232 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,640 the Indigenous and non-Indigenous investors invest in that way. 233 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,040 And we utilized that in the Mississauga's Credit. 234 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:04,640 We incorporated our values into our portfolio and shared it with our investment managers. 235 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:11,000 And one of the great things that came out of that was one of our managers for sure said, 236 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,800 you guys opened our eyes to a whole line of questions that we weren't asking the companies 237 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:21,680 that were in the portfolios we're putting in our clients' investments because we weren't 238 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,400 asking about Indigenous rights. 239 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:29,600 We weren't asking about free prior and informed consent and how the consultations would be 240 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:35,920 going with Indigenous communities that impact how these companies operate. 241 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,000 And he said that you guys opened up that line of questioning that now we can ask. 242 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,080 And it's not just for our Indigenous clients. 243 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,840 It's for all of our clients because it's a material risk that we needed to understand 244 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:48,840 and have the discussion. 245 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:54,080 So I think if you're going to ask the question of what's the impact of Indigenous investing, 246 00:17:54,080 --> 00:18:00,040 it's being active as shareholders and really using our voice within the corporate sector. 247 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:05,200 And I think between the two trusts that we have in Mississauga, the Credit, ours is almost 248 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,600 29 million, the other one is about 110 million with a corporate trustee, but they don't do, 249 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:16,080 as far as I understand, don't do any outright advocacy work like we have. 250 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:21,680 So I'm really proud that the Mississaugas of the Credit were likely the first Indigenous 251 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:27,640 shareholder to bring forward an Indigenous shareholder proposal on an Indigenous issue 252 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,400 with Canadian companies that in a couple of the cases didn't even go to a vote. 253 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:33,720 They just said, please withdraw it. 254 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:34,720 We'll do it. 255 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,240 And it's the development of reconciliation action plans and Indigenous policy. 256 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:44,000 And the first one we were part of was the Atkinson Foundation brought forward the TMX 257 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,000 group. 258 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,920 And we were fully in support of that. 259 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:54,680 And we're able to present at the shareholder meeting to get a 98% approval vote. 260 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,680 That must be really, really rewarding. 261 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,880 Oh, 100%. 262 00:18:58,880 --> 00:18:59,880 And I think it's underrepresented. 263 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:05,560 And I've been saying at the Toa conferences over the years, we should be embarrassed because 264 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:11,400 we've been letting non-Indigenous investors with great intention do things for us, but 265 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,280 we should be doing this for ourselves. 266 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:23,960 How far are we away from having Indigenous investment managers who maybe understand? 267 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,720 That's part of the issue I think we have right now. 268 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:27,720 Yeah. 269 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,520 The other thing is, well, at this point, we're pretty far away. 270 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,960 One of the qualifications to be an investment manager is generally having a chartered financial 271 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:43,200 analyst designation, the CFA, internationally renowned standard. 272 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:49,080 And unfortunately, my understanding, and this is kind of anecdotal, but there's maybe 10 273 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,360 in North America, Indigenous people who hold a CFA. 274 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:59,280 And I think that's where we really have to do a lot of outreach to the companies and 275 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,560 really try to support our students that are out there. 276 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,120 Right now, there's not a lot of role modeling in that area because they're few and far between. 277 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:13,140 And the companies that we deal with said, we'd hire an Indigenous CFA in a heartbeat, 278 00:20:13,140 --> 00:20:14,280 but where are they? 279 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,720 And I said, well, right now, they're in high school and university. 280 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:23,160 It's your job and our job really to help encourage these youth into these positions. 281 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,120 And we really got to show that there's a, one, there's a tremendous need. 282 00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:32,240 And two, you got to learn and understand the industry. 283 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:37,960 And again, a fear for me is that, yeah, get the designation, get into the role, but the 284 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,800 company is going to show you how it's always been done. 285 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:46,680 And I think the values that our people bring to the table really need to start getting 286 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:47,680 through. 287 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,480 And I think the first step is as an investor working with our managers to say, no, no, 288 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,880 we're not that, we're investing with our values, not yours. 289 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,040 And here's how we want it done. 290 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:05,440 Mark, that was very interesting because we obviously talk a lot about ESG in all the 291 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,080 financial markets around the world. 292 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,020 Some it's more popular focus than others. 293 00:21:09,020 --> 00:21:15,280 But I guess the difference for many people is ESG was a set of guidelines imposed or 294 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:22,680 suggested to take things forward, managing these different stakeholder groups, whereas 295 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:27,880 with the indigenous communities, ESG is really just part of the value and how you've always 296 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:34,520 looked at the world that you live in and the responsibility that you have for the creation 297 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,800 that you're part of. 298 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:36,800 Yeah. 299 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:42,800 And we just look at it as sustainability, stewardship, investment stewardship. 300 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,480 We've been stewards of the land for thousands and thousands of years. 301 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:51,040 And we look at how our invested funds impact on that. 302 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:56,400 When ESG first came out, all the managers we dealt with always said, oh, don't worry, 303 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:57,400 we take care of that. 304 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:58,560 You're part of that. 305 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:05,000 But we were like a narrow sliver of the social, the S in ESG, where it's environmental, social 306 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,120 and governance. 307 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:11,120 And we said, no, the eye of indigenous runs through every one of those. 308 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:13,760 And here's how we see it. 309 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:20,480 Some of the metrics we look at in the companies that we would prefer to invest in is in the 310 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,880 environmental, what kind of stewardship, what kind of free prior informed consent consultation 311 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:32,840 do the companies utilize where indigenous people are involved? 312 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:37,040 In the social, it's definitely the impact on our communities. 313 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:42,520 And governance is how representative of indigenous peoples is your company? 314 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,440 What's your level of employment? 315 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,840 Do you have lower middle and upper management? 316 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,920 And what about your C suite? 317 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,520 Is that representative of indigenous peoples? 318 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,720 And more and more companies are starting to really come around there. 319 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,800 And we're really trying to make it more of a business decision than any kind of social 320 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,360 exercise because as you guys know, if it's something social, then the next person coming 321 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:10,840 along may not think it's that important. 322 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:16,840 But if you really kind of turn it into a business decision to how to work with indigenous peoples, 323 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:22,320 that really becomes a mechanism of success because a lot of times when we brought forward 324 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:28,040 the shareholder proposals, it's not, we don't want you to do something nice for us. 325 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,040 We're protecting our money. 326 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,000 We've got invested in your company. 327 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,920 So let's see how we do that in an appropriate way. 328 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:34,920 Yes. 329 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:41,040 And you must have seen the landscape shift over the last five to 10 years in this space? 330 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,280 Oh, definitely. 331 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:49,520 I think, and I will say sadly, especially on the reconciliation portion and where it 332 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,240 pertains to our work, it wasn't until they actually started finding the bodies of the 333 00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:01,360 missing children in Kamloops, British Columbia, that Canadians really took notice. 334 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:10,360 We'd been saying it for years and we had been advocating in 2016, the report came out and 335 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,840 the calls to action, there's 94 of them. 336 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,400 The big one that we've been utilizing is called Action 92, where it really says to business, 337 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,160 the corporate world, that you play a role in reconciliation, utilize the UN declaration 338 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:30,360 of the rights of indigenous peoples as a consultation framework, where free prior and informed consent 339 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:31,960 is a huge component of it. 340 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:40,020 It's the development of procurement opportunities for indigenous business and education, teaching 341 00:24:40,020 --> 00:24:44,840 and providing opportunities for your workforce to learn about the history of indigenous peoples. 342 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:51,500 And a lot of companies have gone through that and really made it a priority to educate their 343 00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:53,040 own workforce. 344 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:59,000 And I think a lot of the biases that had kept indigenous peoples out of the corporate world 345 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,920 were starting to dissipate and people understand that it's not a level playing field. 346 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:12,480 We know we really have to make sure that outreach and mentorship becomes a very important element 347 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:19,580 to bring indigenous peoples into the workforce for sure, gain experience to work up through. 348 00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:24,960 When we want somebody in the corporate C-suite, we don't want you to just give us a position 349 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,920 just to show that you have it. 350 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:33,220 It's got to be earned and it's got to be a qualified individual who sits in there. 351 00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:36,560 And there's lots of us out there that have that. 352 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,400 And I think a lot of companies are starting to recognize that. 353 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,980 It sounds like you're optimistic about the future. 354 00:25:41,980 --> 00:25:43,920 There's definite need. 355 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,720 You mentioned the number of settlements is growing all the time. 356 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,320 There's a need to manage that settlement money properly. 357 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,760 And you're with an organization called Maquate as well. 358 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,520 Will you talk about that? 359 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,520 Sure. 360 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,200 It's sort of that natural evolution for me. 361 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:12,120 I stepped away and resigned from Natoa back in June of 2024. 362 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:21,400 And then some colleagues who reached out to me from Maquate, who the founders of Maquate 363 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,360 are JP Gladue and Max Scudra. 364 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:30,560 Both I had had the opportunity to work with when I was with Natoa and they were CCAB at 365 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,260 the time, now it's CCIB, Canadian Council for Indigenous Business. 366 00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:37,480 And we really had a great relationship. 367 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:43,000 We did a lot of projects and worked together on a few issues. 368 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:49,200 And so they reached out to me and said, we'd like to bring you on as a senior advisor and 369 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:56,560 your specialty obviously is investments and trusts and Indigenous business. 370 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,700 And I thought this was a great opportunity because as a shareholder, we were bringing 371 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:07,640 forward opportunities for companies to develop called the Reconciliation Action Plan, which 372 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:13,440 is really just what development of a formalized Indigenous policy and how to work with Indigenous 373 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,040 peoples for the success of the company. 374 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:23,040 And so Maquate is in that position to be able to be the company that these corporations 375 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:29,360 can hire to help them develop that Reconciliation Action Plan or Indigenous policy. 376 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:37,640 We've got, there's about 20, 25 staff now, a lot of very qualified expertise, thought 377 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:45,440 leaders in different areas of governance and in nuclear power, in hydroelectric, in business 378 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,780 in general. 379 00:27:46,780 --> 00:27:51,000 And I think we have that opportunity to go to companies and really bring that expertise 380 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,880 and help them succeed. 381 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:58,440 Because as I mentioned earlier, I'd seen some comments from a board of director in a company 382 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,640 we were looking at to work with. 383 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,960 And he said, oh, this is our social responsibility. 384 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,680 It's not a business decision. 385 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,840 And I said, well, as much as I appreciate that sentiment, we really have to change their 386 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,040 mindset to say that it is a business decision. 387 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:19,320 It's how do you work with Indigenous peoples in all elements of the business to ensure 388 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,340 the success of that business? 389 00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:28,640 And then you really have the ability then to share that vision down the line of the 390 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,480 various departments and levels of management within the company to say, oh, that makes 391 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,480 sense. 392 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,480 This is why we are doing this. 393 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,760 It's not just a nice to do. 394 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,880 We want to work with the corporate world to ensure that we have a place and our place 395 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,000 is very important. 396 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,080 The funny story I always tell about these headphones is that I had to have this particular 397 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:55,480 set of headphones to do a presentation to the Canadian Senate when Bill C-15 was being 398 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,540 evaluated. 399 00:28:58,540 --> 00:29:05,440 And that's the law in 2022 that says all Canadian law must be in line with the UN Declaration 400 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,440 of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. 401 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,320 And as we work through it today, they're still trying to, on a legislative front, trying 402 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,820 to figure out what that actually means. 403 00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:20,840 And so my hope is that a lot of these reconciliation action plans that these companies are starting 404 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:28,800 to develop can be that roadmap to help the legislation say, do this. 405 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:35,320 And we're trying to show companies that right now without legislation, this is a competitive 406 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,400 advantage. 407 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,560 You'll get investment from Indigenous investors like us who seek out companies who have made 408 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:48,640 a commitment to Indigenous peoples and Canadians who are looking for how reconciliation can 409 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,960 play a role in their portfolios. 410 00:29:50,960 --> 00:30:01,240 So a lot of these guides that I've been mentioning are available at rrii.org, the resources pages. 411 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,280 And it's investor guides for Indigenous peoples, non-Indigenous peoples. 412 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,920 We have a legal review on fiduciary duty and Indigenous sustainability. 413 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,000 So it's quite a lot of great information out there that can be helpful. 414 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:19,440 How do you see the approach of foreign investors has changed over the years when they're coming 415 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,440 in or when there's obviously a subsidiary, some of the major companies have been set 416 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:30,080 up and how have they taken on this on board and what changes have you seen and expect 417 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,080 to see? 418 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:38,560 Yeah, I think that the landscape within Canada is changing with some legislative support, 419 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:44,360 with the opportunities that with these companies developing formalized reconciliation action 420 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:45,360 plans. 421 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:52,600 I think foreign investors looking at Canada have that opportunity to participate in that. 422 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,840 I've done some presentations for United Nations in a couple of areas on Indigenous peoples 423 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,280 and investment. 424 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,880 And I think a lot of the world are looking at Canada to say there's an opportunity to 425 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:12,040 see how Indigenous people play a role in corporate development. 426 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:18,920 A lot of communities are not, contrary to what I think people would think, are not adverse 427 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,480 to business and partnership. 428 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:28,560 But I think a very genuine relationship building approach by foreign business with Indigenous 429 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:34,440 peoples, make the relationship, build the trust, work in partnership is a way of really 430 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,200 getting a lot of business done here in Canada. 431 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,800 I think there's a lot of opportunity. 432 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:47,520 A lot of communities are very much understanding that they need to develop their departments 433 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,680 and their consultation protocols. 434 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:57,900 And a community like my wife's community in Cape Breton, the member to First Nation, incredibly 435 00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:01,800 advanced in those areas and the development of business. 436 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:08,580 And we're able to pull together a deal with other communities within the Nova Scotia area 437 00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:14,840 to buy Clearwater Foods, which is a billion dollar deal that has been very beneficial 438 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:22,880 for Indigenous business in general and playing a role in the Canadian marketplace. 439 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,400 So I think a lot. 440 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,080 We have examples like that. 441 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:33,960 And even my community here in Six Nations, developing battery storage projects for renewable 442 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,280 energy is an incredible opportunity. 443 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:43,840 So I think a lot of Indigenous communities have stepped up and are really looking for 444 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:50,440 and hoping that those European investors are looking at our marketplace and showing how 445 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:55,800 it can be done in, Rob, as we say, in a good way. 446 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:01,680 Working with people with good hearts and good minds, I think, is the way that our ancestors 447 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:02,840 always viewed it. 448 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:03,840 Absolutely. 449 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,200 Is there anything we haven't touched on that you'd like us to ask about? 450 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,440 Well, I'm not sure. 451 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:17,040 I think it's very, I greatly appreciate the opportunity to speak with you guys and hopefully 452 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,400 reach some of the target market you're looking at and European investors coming into Canada. 453 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:28,080 I know when you guys first established the summit, I kind of looked at it and said, hey, 454 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:29,480 how about us? 455 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,960 We should be involved in something like that. 456 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:40,040 But I think the view of how Indigenous investors are actually working in the Canadian marketplace 457 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:46,000 to really have the rest of the marketplace understand our values. 458 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,460 Believe me, when we presented to the Mississaugas of the Credit Community during one of our 459 00:33:50,460 --> 00:33:56,480 annual meetings and explained that being the smaller trust in the community, we had a greater 460 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:04,520 impact on the Canadian corporate world by leading proposals with Canadian companies 461 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:14,400 that advanced Indigenous peoples' rights, title interest, employment, procurement opportunities. 462 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:21,600 The members were incredibly moved by that opportunity and I really have to thank my 463 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:27,560 friends at Share for having that platform that we utilize in engagement with these companies. 464 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,640 But yeah, it's important, I think, for an investor to understand that Indigenous people 465 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,840 are actually having quite an impact here and it's not a negative one. 466 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,600 I think generally people would think when they hear Indigenous involvement in the marketplace 467 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:47,360 is we're disrupting regulatory approvals or blocking roads and stuff like that. 468 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:53,720 I think that's sort of the mentality that is melting away because we recognize that 469 00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:59,400 we've been settling land claims and we have a lot of allies in the investment world that 470 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,080 are willing and looking forward and looking to us for the direction on Indigenous issues. 471 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:09,980 So more and more we're stepping up and taking that role on and really trying to show that 472 00:35:09,980 --> 00:35:11,760 it's a good business decision. 473 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:17,040 Yeah, you said it and that's the reason for the summit and the reason for these podcasts 474 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:23,620 is to try and change the perception, especially in Europe, about how Indigenous communities 475 00:35:23,620 --> 00:35:29,920 and nations feel about investment and economic development generally. 476 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:36,240 In Europe, great and shining example of when it's approached in the right way, great things 477 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:42,680 can be achieved and the demands, the needs for the capital are so great that I think 478 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,760 we do need to look outside of the country for to access some of that. 479 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:48,760 That's what we're trying to do. 480 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,960 So thank you, Mark Sevester, for being with us again today. 481 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,440 Well, Rob and Mark, I appreciate the opportunity and look forward to staying connected and 482 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,680 seeing where all this goes. 483 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:00,680 Thank you very much, Mark. 484 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,200 It's been great to have you with us. 485 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,520 Thank you. 486 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,600 Thank you to Mark Sevester for sharing his insights with us. 487 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,120 If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe and leave a review by following 488 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,640 our YouTube channel at Drum Beats Podcast. 489 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,480 Don't forget to follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and other platforms shown on the 490 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,120 description below. 491 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,600 Visit our website for more resources and upcoming discussion. 492 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,360 Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2025 summit taking place on the 10th of April. 493 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,040 Thanks for listening to Drum Beats. 494 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:45,880 Until next time.