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Welcome to Drum Beats, the must-listen-to podcast for investors interested in Indigenous

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investment in Canada. Born from the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit, the show focuses

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on the intersection of Indigenous economic strategies and investment opportunities.

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I'm Mark Monack and my co-host Robert Brant and I are joined today by Mark Perlasly, Chief

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Executive Officer for First Nations Major Projects Coalition, as one of the driving

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forces behind the foundation of FNMPC and he also sits on the board of CIBC and HydroOne.

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He discusses his commitment to secure continued access to affordably priced capital and they

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currently support 14 projects with a total project expenditure of $45 billion. Join us

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as we explore how these critical conversations are reshaping economic development across

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Canada.

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Mark, Perlasly, welcome to Drum Beats. Real pleasure to have you with us. I know you've

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got a very busy schedule, a number of hats that you wear, so appreciate your time.

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Mark, why don't you tell us a little bit about the history of the coalition, how it started

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and how it's grown.

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The coalition started about 10 years ago when 11 First Nations in Northern British Columbia

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had an opportunity to take a 30% equity stake options in a pipeline in Northern British

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Columbia and when they went off to the bank and financial institutions to raise the capital,

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they found very quickly that they could not find capital at an affordable rate and that's

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because under the Indian Act in Canada, First Nations do not own their lands, they do not

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own any property, it's all held in trust by the federal government. So when you approach

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a financial institution with no assets, you can imagine what happens. The rate of capital

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was credit card rate types 30%, 35%, 40% which on a regulated return of 9% to 12% just doesn't

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work. So they lost that opportunity. Those leaders at the thought at that time going,

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you know what, this is going to happen again. We need an organization that can help us get

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past this issue, but also how do we all work together in a linear project, 11 nations that

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we were as nations we weren't organized in that structure, a commercial structure, a

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revenue sharing, responsibilities, governance. So that's where the coalition came from. And

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then it's just grown by word of mouth. Originally we were in British Columbia and that's still

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where most of our members are because we're local, but eventually nations across the country

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one by one would come forward saying, hey, we have this proposal of a nickel mine in

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our territory. We know nothing about this. How does this work? Critical minerals, everything

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from lithium, copper, scandium, cobalt, those started coming forward. Clean energy projects,

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thermal, tidal on the coasts, also solar wind, electric transmission lines, the via rail

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high speed fast frequency project in Ontario, Quebec has come forward. If you go through

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our website, you'll find all of these projects listed. And we've taken these projects on

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where we feel that we can offer benefit to those nations to not only get to the table,

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but to help their proponents get the projects built. And that's where the success has come

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from. We have never advertised. We don't take a finder's fee from the proponent nor the

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nation. We support the nation. We will help the companies, but our primary focus is to

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ensure that the nation is successful in these negotiations.

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I want to start off by congratulating you on your new role as the CEO of the First Nations

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Major Projects Coalition. But I know it arose under tragic circumstances. And so on behalf

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of everybody at Drum Beats who want to pass on our condolences, and for the passing of

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your friend and former colleague, Nilo Edwards. Do you want to tell our listeners a little

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bit about Nilo to begin?

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Well, Nilo Edwards was the initial CEO of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition.

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And I joked at times that I was the second employee of the coalition, five seconds after

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him. We were co-founders of this organization almost a decade ago. And at that time we had

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been tasked by the chiefs and leaders of communities in Northern British Columbia to set up an

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organization that would help them negotiate equity stakes in major projects in their territory.

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And so we went off to do that. And we started on road trips in Northern Canada, meeting

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communities, then going off to meet companies. And we were told that what we were doing was

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audacious. And that was how I described Nilo. It was turmoil at the beginning, snowstorms

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in Northern Canada, dirt roads, bad food as we started this off. And the initial nations

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there have grown now to 175 across the country. And now we're seeing success in negotiating

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equity options in everything from electric transmission lines, natural gas pipelines,

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we're working on geothermal plants. All of this came about because of the inability of

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Nilo Edwards to say no. And we miss him. The one thing that was great about Nilo as well

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is that he was a lover of life. He was only 37 when he died from cancer related to an

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organ transplant, which was very sad. But in that time he accomplished so much and we

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are grateful for what he's given and we will miss him deeply.

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He'll be missed by many, many people across Canada and in other parts of the world too.

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He made a big impact in the short time he was with us. We'll talk a bit about FNMPC

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and that organization, the success that it has become over the last 10 years. But maybe

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first let's talk about your background. Where are you from?

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I am from a first nation in British Columbia, in Southern British Columbia near Merritt,

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BC. We are the Inchelic Abbey and our traditional territory stretches from South Central British

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Columbia into Washington state in the United States. And we are 15 bands in one linguistic

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nation and we are well connected by transportation links to Vancouver, Kamloops and into the

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rest of Canada. I live in Vancouver though as sort of the economic centre of British

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Columbia where I live on the Musqueam Reserve just outside UBC in the west side of Vancouver.

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And before you along with Nilo started FNMPC, what were you doing before that?

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I started my career in natural gas here in British Columbia. Eventually I had the opportunity

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to go to Harvard for graduate studies at the Kennedy School of Government and the Harvard

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Business School which I did complete. And at that time I fell into the energy of the

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East Coast of the United States. So I was actually very involved in building projects

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worldwide actually in cities and infrastructure. I was very much, I was the vice president

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of project development at a project called Songdo International City which is in Korea

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which is now built which was a copy of Singapore meant to compete in that northeast sector

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of Asia. So I had spent considerable time commuting between the East Coast of the United

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States and Southeast Asia. A lot of that experience came back to use when we came back to Canada.

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We had a child in Boston and even though it's four time zones, three time zones away, you

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can imagine the cries from the grandmothers back on the west coast of Canada. So when

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we came back, BC at that time had 14 LNG proposals across it right now, all of them crossing

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indigenous territories, all of them trying to get consent, trying to get sign off and

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it was complete mayhem. And the elders of my community and the leadership, indigenous

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leadership at BC asked me to come in and sit through one of these presentations to see

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well what was going on. And it was very clear that the two groups were not connecting. You'd

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have dozens of indigenous communities being talked at by engineers from energy companies

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from around the world and there wasn't a connection. So since I started my career in energy, I

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had completed a lot of work at Harvard and executive education and I had worked with

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many of these companies previously. I was asked to come in and sort it out. And when

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it came down to it was just a matter of both parties not speaking the same language. It

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was English, but they weren't understanding each other. That eventually morphed into what

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we see now in the coalition where there's a meeting of the minds where you've got industry

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and indigenous at the same table, trying to work towards mutual goals. So that was my

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background. So I fell into this work at the coalition quite naturally having done this

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circuit through Harvard, Asia, back to Canada, now home.

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Really interesting background, Mark, but you know, it always surprises me a little bit.

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So there you were doing a deal in Korea, right? Yes. Not a lot of you're from BC, right?

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Korea. But that project was going ahead. No problem. Right. So there's obviously another

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factor that people did not perceive and many perhaps still don't. The indigenous people

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is, hey, they are different, right? Just because they're in this land called Canada, you just

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can't assume the way you've done business with other Canadians is the same way.

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That is so true. I would meet Canadians overseas and Canadians going into Asian markets would

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understand that there's cultural protocols, there's ways to act, there's ways to engage,

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there's ways to introduce yourself, there's protocol. But I think in Canada at times,

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Canadians, non-indigenous Canadians forget that they think, oh, we're all Canadian, we're

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all here together. And they go on with this assumption that they can do business as normal

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as they would do in Toronto or in Montreal or in any other city in the country, Calgary.

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But that's not the case. Indigenous communities, indigenous nations have cultures and protocols

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just as an Asian community would. What was really interesting about the work that we're

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doing now with the coalition is we're watching outreach from Asian businesses and companies

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into First Nations, particularly in the West, where they come in with a very well honed

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understanding of the cultural protocols. And what we're finding is that they're getting

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better traction than individuals out of Toronto, just because they have that awareness that

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they're dealing in a different culture. Very, very insightful. I mean, the Internet

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and national partners, are they coming through government to reach the indigenous community?

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Are they going direct nation to nation? They're going direct nation, straight to the nation.

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So for example, there was a delegation of Japanese business, business coming looking

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towards hydrogen export opportunities. And they have learned in the past that going through

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government sometimes is not productive. So what they want to do is meet the people directly.

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So they'll go into the communities. And the bottom line they're asking is that we've

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had issues before with blockades by indigenous protesters on projects. British Columbia,

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that's happened quite often. This time they're asking, so if we're going to come and we make

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this investment, is it a safe investment? Will we get our return? Will you block it?

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What's interesting about that, though, is that is a nation to nation engagement. It's

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the equivalent of it. It's company to nation. It's the same thing as chief to chief. And

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that pays dividends. Communities felt heard. And then the big thing now is that communities

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want to be part of these economic benefits that are coming from these projects. They

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don't want to be bystanders. And we find at times as nations is that government doesn't

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come in speaking like that. Government comes in with a set mindset, which is not always

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focused on what the nations want.

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We've noticed in Europe, in the UK in particular, and that's one of the reasons we started the

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Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit last year, a perception amongst European and British

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investors, partners, that projects can't get completed in Canada because Indigenous communities

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are against them. And media coverage of blockades and court cases, and in some cases past experience

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with projects that didn't get completed because of local opposition, has given an impression

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that all Indigenous communities are against all development. And that's definitely not

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the case. You prove it every day. And that's one of the reasons we're continuing with the

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summit and engaging with international investors to show that there is support when these projects

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are approached in the right manner.

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So the Coalition is a non-profit Indigenous led organization. We have 175 members across

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the country in every time zone, in every part of the country. And these are nations who

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come forward voluntarily. We've never marketed because they want to be involved in major

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projects, providing the projects are done in a manner that is compatible with what they're

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after. And that might be better environmental protections, the planning and decommissioning

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projects or the economic benefits, something. So if there's 600 nations in the country

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and 175 are part of this organization voluntarily, it should smash that impression that Indigenous

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people are against development. Indigenous people are against being pushed aside. That's

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the big difference. And in the past, that's always what happens.

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But things have changed, haven't they, over the last, say, 10 to 15 years. You've seen

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that in the growth of your Coalition. And Canada is unique in that regard around the

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world with the structures, the types of arrangements that are being made to partner with Indigenous

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communities to get projects done. There's some really innovative things happening. The

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Canadian law is becoming more and more supportive. And businesses seem to have realized that

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regardless of what the law says, if you want to get these things done, you are going to

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have to have the support of the Indigenous community.

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What we're finding now is that companies are coming into communities realizing that Indigenous

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people can be a strategic partner. Part of that is because very few of these projects,

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especially larger projects, major projects, is the proponents, 100% of proponents capital.

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They have to find other capital to come into these projects. Capital is risk-averse. They

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want to know if their investors are putting their money in that they will get a return.

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If you have the Indigenous partner on board as a co-owner or co-equity position, that

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makes the First Nation a co-proponent. And what co-proponent is going to oppose their

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own investment? So as far as we're concerned, it's a no-brainer at that point. You have

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alignment on the project and then in theory on the approach to government for permitting.

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And in some cases, our members go forward representing the project for the permitting

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on behalf of the partnership. And think about how that reduces red tape and bureaucracy

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when you're trying to get through the system.

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Absolutely. And what you see is, you know, we talked about this transition. You know,

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here you are, both of you, leaders in your field, well respected. And you have this whole

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talent pool that has never been tapped into, but now you have Indigenous leaders in top

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organizations across the country helping to shape and influence them. How do you think

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that's going to change the next 10 years? If you look what you've accomplished in the

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past 10 Mark is FNNPC. You know, what's that going to look like when you have access to

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those decision makers on the other side of the table when you're trying to get things

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done?

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Well, what you're going to find is that this will be common sense. It'll become common

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sense to have an Indigenous partner in some respects in your partner. And it doesn't matter

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in what capacity, as long as the nation feels that they've been heard and that they've been

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respected. And what you'll see is an acceleration of projects being approved, built, operating.

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You're starting to see some challenges right now from the United States about where Canada

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has access to the world. Well, we need to diversify our buyers. We need to be out in

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the world. And in Canada, you need Indigenous consent to move these projects forward to

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get government permitting. We have an opportunity now going forward to speed that up in partnership

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with Indigenous people. And this is to benefit all of Canada. It's not just for the Indigenous

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people. It's for everybody. It provides the revenues for general Canadian expenditures

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in terms of health care, education, environmental protection, investment in our infrastructure.

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So we have a grand opportunity to turn this on, the history on its head in a very short

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time, as long as everybody realizes that we're all in this together. And First Nations, through

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the Major Projects Coalition, have already indicated that they're willing to do that.

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Yes, I keep thinking the Indigenous people of Greenland are actually going to look and

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say, yeah, you might have a lot of money in America. But you know, we really, our brothers

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and sisters, you know, there's an artificial border because we used to cross those waters.

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No problem. I think we'll join Canada. Or Canada will join us. How would that be? Would

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that go down well?

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Well, if the Greenland, Indigenous Greenland population wants to do that, great. But I

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think, I think that that would be a longer term perspective. Talk about causing more

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fireworks though, in terms of what would happen in South Florida.

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Absolutely, right.

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Why don't we just invite Panama at the same time? Like they can come along.

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Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. They'll be concerned they're being constrained.

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It's an interesting time, Mark, to take over leadership at the coalition. Some challenges

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south of the border. We've got in Canada, uncertainty, a new leader, a new prime minister

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will be appointed in the next month or so. Possible election, definite election before

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October, possible change in government. How does all of that look, all of that uncertainty

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affect plans of the coalition over the next year or so?

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So in terms of Canada, change in government, we are a non-political organization. We focus

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primarily on two issues, economic self-determination for nations and environmental self-determination.

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We have been purposefully avoiding the politics. There's enough political organizations in

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this country, especially in the indigenous realm, that they take care of that quite nicely.

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And we think whatever happens with the government in the United States or in Canada or new prime

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ministers and new parties, we're still going to need Canadian advancement in building these

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projects, infrastructure, clean energy. It's still going to be needed. It doesn't matter

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who the government is and we are still focused on that and we will remain laser focused on

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that. We will work with any government that's coming in. And in many respects, it's the

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capital that's more important to these projects right now than the government in Ottawa.

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Our audience is UK, Canadian, and other parts of the world. Is there enough capital in Canada

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to meet the needs over the next few years to get these projects done?

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Canada has always had outside investment for the development of resources or infrastructure

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in this country and that will continue. From a First Nations perspective, First Nations

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will require about $585 billion in the coming decades to make co-investments in these projects.

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So is there enough money in the country to cover that? We don't think so. We know that

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our outreach to investors worldwide is important, that we are an important part of Canada's

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export capabilities and part of Canada's infrastructure and the needs that this country

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requires will need First Nations. So we see ourselves as working with the rest of Canada

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to attract that capital to make sure that the investments are made for the benefit of

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everyone.

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Yes, well spoken.

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You're relatively new to the role and I know it's been a bit of a whirlwind the last few

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months but what are the priorities for the coalition in the coming year?

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The big one is continued access to affordably priced capital for First Nations, for Indigenous

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people. In this country, it is very difficult for nations to access traditional sources

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of capital because under the Indian Act, which was passed in the 1800s, Indigenous people,

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particularly First Nations, we don't own anything. All of our assets are held in trust

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by the Crown, the federal government for our use. So we may have land that we're using,

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property, income, but technically it's not ours. It's all held by the federal government,

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which means we technically have no assets. So that makes it very difficult to access

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capital, at least at an affordable rate. Our big push of the coalition is to continue to

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knock that barrier down to ensure that nations do have the ability to participate in the

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economy like anyone else.

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Fantastic stuff. Maybe give us an idea of some of the projects you're working on now

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or recently completed, some of your favorites, most innovative.

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So the coalition at the moment, these are all on our website, is that we're supporting

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14 projects now with a total capital expenditure of $45 billion and those projects are across

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the country. 85% of the projects we support are in clean energy. Clean energy projects

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are easier for First Nations because they have a regulated rate return. They tend to

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be smaller, unlike a major mine can be $5 to $8 billion, but energy is easier to manage

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in terms of working with consumers and investors.

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The two projects that we're very proud of right now, the first one is the Chatham to

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Lakeshore power line in Ontario that has five First Nations in a co-ownership, co-equity

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position, 50% with the local utility, which is groundbreaking. That model now will be

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replicated across Ontario and has become the standard for the world. We've had indigenous

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parties from around the world contact us going, how does that work? 50% equity ownership.

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And that will provide stable revenues to those communities. It provides them a say in the

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planning, operation and decommissioning. It's also a rememberable decommissioning of projects.

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That's astounding.

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The other project we're quite proud of is a 10% equity stake in a gas pipeline across

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Northern British Columbia. And this project again is a number of First Nations working

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together in a commercial structure where they have that equity option. Their challenge right

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now is to find the capital and we're working on it. But those are the beginnings of the

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projects that we have been working on. We have other projects in land development. There's

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a 15 megawatt geothermal power station in there. There's interest from a number of clean

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energy projects across the country. There's also a critical minerals interest right now

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in Northern Ontario and other parts of the West. We've been told that there's a number

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of nations in Quebec who are about to join the coalition because they're looking for

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skill sets in the same sort of projects in that part of the country. A lot of these projects

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for export. And that puts us into trade situations, which frankly we've always been in. If you

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look back even to the fur trade in Canada, what was that about? Well, it was export of

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materials from Canada out and they needed First Nations to do it. So there's a lot of

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things happening and we're quite proud of the work we've done and how we've helped

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nations get to the table and reach their ambitions.

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When you talk about supporting a project and helping members, what is the coalition actually

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doing?

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We are a non-profit. We don't take a finder's fee. We don't take any fee from the nations.

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We're primarily supported by government right now, which we're working to diversify that

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to our own income streams. But what we are is a capacity organization. We support the

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organization to find the skill sets and if they haven't got them, we will find them for

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them to get to the table to negotiate, to participate. And that can go the gambit from

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how do you do a commercial structure to what is this industry about? For example, critical

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minerals or clean energy, how does it work? We've had questions about small modular nuclear

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reactors as well. That's an issue the nations are curious about. We will help them get to

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the table and negotiate a deal, corporately structure themselves in a way that where they

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are working perhaps with multiple First Nations in a linear project, we run the gambit of

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it. So we are a support organization.

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It's really an advantage to have an organization like yours that has insight into so many projects,

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different sectors across the country and an ability to share that knowledge and those

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learnings that is priceless, a priceless benefit to be able to give to members who may not

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who have done projects or projects on the scale that they're looking at now ever before.

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We have had a lot of interest over the past two or three years from nations who want to

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move into export markets. To do that, they understand where they are on that supply chain.

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In order to build that capacity to participate and the big one to think about is going forward

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is what they do after they've had success. Revenues start flowing in, the revenues might

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be used immediately by the nation, but you're starting to see situations now of large capital

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pools controlled by indigenous people growing across the country. You're going to start

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to see direct placement of investment by those communities in projects, in their interest,

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in their territories. That should be of great interest to Canada and should be a great interest

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to proponents that there's a local source of capital that brings with it not just the

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capital, but the rights, the indigenous rights that would make a project more competitive,

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especially in raising capital from other sources.

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Yes, very much so. Coming back to some of the projects that you've described, are all

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those nations part of your coalition or sometimes eight out of 10? How does that work?

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We don't represent all nations in this country. If a nation decides they don't want development,

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that's their right. They won't be a member of the coalition, obviously, because we do

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one thing. If they're not part of the coalition, that's fine. The projects I've described,

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they're linear projects. In the case of the gas pipeline in British Columbia, there's

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I think 22 nations in the entire corridor. There are only 11 are with us. The others

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are with other parties or negotiating or opposed. We will work with those communities if they

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want to address that with other communities that might be opposed or their councils, but

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it just depends on the situation. In some cases, we don't say yes to all projects that

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come forward to the coalition. If it's something that we do not feel that we can add value

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at this point, we will refer them to someone else. In many cases, the projects fall into

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two main areas, which is critical minerals, clean energy. We will do our best to help

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the community with those challenges.

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Maybe Mark, tap into some of your knowledge and experience on community engagement, particularly

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for international audience who are thinking about partnering, investing with Indigenous

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communities. Any best practices you want to talk about?

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It's a simple process. Come have coffee. That's the starting point. These are about relationships.

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We've seen at times companies and governments do this too. They'll fire off a letter from

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their lawyer to the council in very legal terms or business terms about what they're

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expecting. If you're going to go meet your neighbor for the first time, would you have

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a lawyer draft a letter and send it over and say, we would like to discuss the following

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and the following time, the garden, the fence, the hose, the water use, and your sprinkling

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note and use? No. People forget that. These are people in communities who are normal people.

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Canadians have a challenge at times. Canadians can be overly polite and forget that. That's

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what it comes down to. The example I gave earlier, the Japanese are just coming direct,

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coming by, wanting to meet people, introducing themselves, building a relationship. Then

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you can ask about things like the fence, the watering, the noise from your neighbor. You

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can't do that until you've actually met them. I know it sounds simple, but companies forget

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that. Investors forget that.

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As much as I don't like to hear about lawyers being cut out of any process, I hear what

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you're saying.

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I'm careful here because I know you're a lawyer, but people aren't going to bond over

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a cup of coffee across the backyard fence if a lawyer has come in first to set the terms

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for the chat. There's a chance for a lawyer to get involved later once there's something

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substantive to talk about, but it's that relationship. At the coalition, we've had companies from

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overseas contact us saying, look, we're interested in this or that and we don't know how to proceed.

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We don't know how to make contact with this nation because they might be overseas. We're

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happy to introduce them saying, this is fine. If they're members of the coalition, it's

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to say, here's so and so, here's the community, we'll do the introduction, and then we'll

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see where it goes.

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That's a great example, Mark. Does that happen that overseas investors come to your organization

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first and say, can you tell us anything about who we need to talk to in this? Can you describe

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a couple of examples like that?

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I don't want to name the companies. We've had a European company come forward. They

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were bidding on a government contract and they knew that part of the government contract

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is by point system and one of them was an indigenous involvement, indigenous engagement,

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indigenous benefits that might flow from this new project or contract. They contacted us

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and said, well, and they were big, they were worldwide, but they didn't have contacts in

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this area, so we helped them. We'll tell you who they are. We'll contact the members who

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are in the area and say, this is the company, this is what they'd like to do, this is the

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individual, would you like to meet them? And done that.

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The Japanese example, which I referenced in terms of Japanese officials and company officials

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coming into communities in British Columbia and wanting to asking to meet indigenous people

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directly, that came about because of a contact through the major projects coalition. Then

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we brought the nations down and people are curious. If you have 175 members in a coalition

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like ours, they want business, they want investment, they want opportunities, so it's a perfect

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fit.

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One thing I'd like to point out too is that we put at the coalition, we run an annual

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conference every April on some topic of indigenous corporate engagement. We bring the best examples

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together. Our last conference, we had 1,700 people and we've had leading tribal indigenous

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members from the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, who are starting to come

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and leading corporate types who are also trying to make that connection. So CEOs of natural

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gas energy companies in Canada, our keynote speaker was the US CEO of the Bank of America

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this year. We've had the US Secretary of Energy come. So we are starting to become that point

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where it's safe for parties to come in and say, look, this is what we want to talk about.

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We do not talk about the political rights discussion that might have happened in the

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news last week. We are focused on environment and commercial to get to our members' desire

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to be partners in these projects.

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Well, Mark Belasly, thank you again for joining us. Really interesting discussion, fascinating

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time. Wishing you all the best. Everyone at the coalition, keep up the good work and we

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look forward to welcoming you very shortly at the second annual Canadian Indigenous Investment

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Summit in London on the 10th of April.

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I am very much looking forward to meeting you both in person and sharing the message

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of the coalition to those in attendance. Thank you.

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Thank you, Mark. It's been wonderful to have you on.

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Thank you to Mark Belasly for sharing his insights with us. If you enjoyed this conversation,

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be sure to subscribe and leave a review by following our YouTube channel, Drum Beats

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Podcast. Don't forget to follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and other platforms shown in

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the description below. Visit our website for more resources and upcoming discussions. And

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of course, mark your calendar for the upcoming 2025 summit taking place on the 10th of April.

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Thanks for listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.