Welcome to Drum Beats, the must-listen-to podcast for investors interested in Indigenous
investment in Canada. Born from the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit, the show focuses
on the intersection of Indigenous economic strategies and investment opportunities.
I'm Mark Monack and my co-host Robert Brant and I are joined today by Mark Perlasly, Chief
Executive Officer for First Nations Major Projects Coalition, as one of the driving
forces behind the foundation of FNMPC and he also sits on the board of CIBC and HydroOne.
He discusses his commitment to secure continued access to affordably priced capital and they
currently support 14 projects with a total project expenditure of $45 billion. Join us
as we explore how these critical conversations are reshaping economic development across
Canada.
Mark, Perlasly, welcome to Drum Beats. Real pleasure to have you with us. I know you've
got a very busy schedule, a number of hats that you wear, so appreciate your time.
Mark, why don't you tell us a little bit about the history of the coalition, how it started
and how it's grown.
The coalition started about 10 years ago when 11 First Nations in Northern British Columbia
had an opportunity to take a 30% equity stake options in a pipeline in Northern British
Columbia and when they went off to the bank and financial institutions to raise the capital,
they found very quickly that they could not find capital at an affordable rate and that's
because under the Indian Act in Canada, First Nations do not own their lands, they do not
own any property, it's all held in trust by the federal government. So when you approach
a financial institution with no assets, you can imagine what happens. The rate of capital
was credit card rate types 30%, 35%, 40% which on a regulated return of 9% to 12% just doesn't
work. So they lost that opportunity. Those leaders at the thought at that time going,
you know what, this is going to happen again. We need an organization that can help us get
past this issue, but also how do we all work together in a linear project, 11 nations that
we were as nations we weren't organized in that structure, a commercial structure, a
revenue sharing, responsibilities, governance. So that's where the coalition came from. And
then it's just grown by word of mouth. Originally we were in British Columbia and that's still
where most of our members are because we're local, but eventually nations across the country
one by one would come forward saying, hey, we have this proposal of a nickel mine in
our territory. We know nothing about this. How does this work? Critical minerals, everything
from lithium, copper, scandium, cobalt, those started coming forward. Clean energy projects,
thermal, tidal on the coasts, also solar wind, electric transmission lines, the via rail
high speed fast frequency project in Ontario, Quebec has come forward. If you go through
our website, you'll find all of these projects listed. And we've taken these projects on
where we feel that we can offer benefit to those nations to not only get to the table,
but to help their proponents get the projects built. And that's where the success has come
from. We have never advertised. We don't take a finder's fee from the proponent nor the
nation. We support the nation. We will help the companies, but our primary focus is to
ensure that the nation is successful in these negotiations.
I want to start off by congratulating you on your new role as the CEO of the First Nations
Major Projects Coalition. But I know it arose under tragic circumstances. And so on behalf
of everybody at Drum Beats who want to pass on our condolences, and for the passing of
your friend and former colleague, Nilo Edwards. Do you want to tell our listeners a little
bit about Nilo to begin?
Well, Nilo Edwards was the initial CEO of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition.
And I joked at times that I was the second employee of the coalition, five seconds after
him. We were co-founders of this organization almost a decade ago. And at that time we had
been tasked by the chiefs and leaders of communities in Northern British Columbia to set up an
organization that would help them negotiate equity stakes in major projects in their territory.
And so we went off to do that. And we started on road trips in Northern Canada, meeting
communities, then going off to meet companies. And we were told that what we were doing was
audacious. And that was how I described Nilo. It was turmoil at the beginning, snowstorms
in Northern Canada, dirt roads, bad food as we started this off. And the initial nations
there have grown now to 175 across the country. And now we're seeing success in negotiating
equity options in everything from electric transmission lines, natural gas pipelines,
we're working on geothermal plants. All of this came about because of the inability of
Nilo Edwards to say no. And we miss him. The one thing that was great about Nilo as well
is that he was a lover of life. He was only 37 when he died from cancer related to an
organ transplant, which was very sad. But in that time he accomplished so much and we
are grateful for what he's given and we will miss him deeply.
He'll be missed by many, many people across Canada and in other parts of the world too.
He made a big impact in the short time he was with us. We'll talk a bit about FNMPC
and that organization, the success that it has become over the last 10 years. But maybe
first let's talk about your background. Where are you from?
I am from a first nation in British Columbia, in Southern British Columbia near Merritt,
BC. We are the Inchelic Abbey and our traditional territory stretches from South Central British
Columbia into Washington state in the United States. And we are 15 bands in one linguistic
nation and we are well connected by transportation links to Vancouver, Kamloops and into the
rest of Canada. I live in Vancouver though as sort of the economic centre of British
Columbia where I live on the Musqueam Reserve just outside UBC in the west side of Vancouver.
And before you along with Nilo started FNMPC, what were you doing before that?
I started my career in natural gas here in British Columbia. Eventually I had the opportunity
to go to Harvard for graduate studies at the Kennedy School of Government and the Harvard
Business School which I did complete. And at that time I fell into the energy of the
East Coast of the United States. So I was actually very involved in building projects
worldwide actually in cities and infrastructure. I was very much, I was the vice president
of project development at a project called Songdo International City which is in Korea
which is now built which was a copy of Singapore meant to compete in that northeast sector
of Asia. So I had spent considerable time commuting between the East Coast of the United
States and Southeast Asia. A lot of that experience came back to use when we came back to Canada.
We had a child in Boston and even though it's four time zones, three time zones away, you
can imagine the cries from the grandmothers back on the west coast of Canada. So when
we came back, BC at that time had 14 LNG proposals across it right now, all of them crossing
indigenous territories, all of them trying to get consent, trying to get sign off and
it was complete mayhem. And the elders of my community and the leadership, indigenous
leadership at BC asked me to come in and sit through one of these presentations to see
well what was going on. And it was very clear that the two groups were not connecting. You'd
have dozens of indigenous communities being talked at by engineers from energy companies
from around the world and there wasn't a connection. So since I started my career in energy, I
had completed a lot of work at Harvard and executive education and I had worked with
many of these companies previously. I was asked to come in and sort it out. And when
it came down to it was just a matter of both parties not speaking the same language. It
was English, but they weren't understanding each other. That eventually morphed into what
we see now in the coalition where there's a meeting of the minds where you've got industry
and indigenous at the same table, trying to work towards mutual goals. So that was my
background. So I fell into this work at the coalition quite naturally having done this
circuit through Harvard, Asia, back to Canada, now home.
Really interesting background, Mark, but you know, it always surprises me a little bit.
So there you were doing a deal in Korea, right? Yes. Not a lot of you're from BC, right?
Korea. But that project was going ahead. No problem. Right. So there's obviously another
factor that people did not perceive and many perhaps still don't. The indigenous people
is, hey, they are different, right? Just because they're in this land called Canada, you just
can't assume the way you've done business with other Canadians is the same way.
That is so true. I would meet Canadians overseas and Canadians going into Asian markets would
understand that there's cultural protocols, there's ways to act, there's ways to engage,
there's ways to introduce yourself, there's protocol. But I think in Canada at times,
Canadians, non-indigenous Canadians forget that they think, oh, we're all Canadian, we're
all here together. And they go on with this assumption that they can do business as normal
as they would do in Toronto or in Montreal or in any other city in the country, Calgary.
But that's not the case. Indigenous communities, indigenous nations have cultures and protocols
just as an Asian community would. What was really interesting about the work that we're
doing now with the coalition is we're watching outreach from Asian businesses and companies
into First Nations, particularly in the West, where they come in with a very well honed
understanding of the cultural protocols. And what we're finding is that they're getting
better traction than individuals out of Toronto, just because they have that awareness that
they're dealing in a different culture. Very, very insightful. I mean, the Internet
and national partners, are they coming through government to reach the indigenous community?
Are they going direct nation to nation? They're going direct nation, straight to the nation.
So for example, there was a delegation of Japanese business, business coming looking
towards hydrogen export opportunities. And they have learned in the past that going through
government sometimes is not productive. So what they want to do is meet the people directly.
So they'll go into the communities. And the bottom line they're asking is that we've
had issues before with blockades by indigenous protesters on projects. British Columbia,
that's happened quite often. This time they're asking, so if we're going to come and we make
this investment, is it a safe investment? Will we get our return? Will you block it?
What's interesting about that, though, is that is a nation to nation engagement. It's
the equivalent of it. It's company to nation. It's the same thing as chief to chief. And
that pays dividends. Communities felt heard. And then the big thing now is that communities
want to be part of these economic benefits that are coming from these projects. They
don't want to be bystanders. And we find at times as nations is that government doesn't
come in speaking like that. Government comes in with a set mindset, which is not always
focused on what the nations want.
We've noticed in Europe, in the UK in particular, and that's one of the reasons we started the
Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit last year, a perception amongst European and British
investors, partners, that projects can't get completed in Canada because Indigenous communities
are against them. And media coverage of blockades and court cases, and in some cases past experience
with projects that didn't get completed because of local opposition, has given an impression
that all Indigenous communities are against all development. And that's definitely not
the case. You prove it every day. And that's one of the reasons we're continuing with the
summit and engaging with international investors to show that there is support when these projects
are approached in the right manner.
So the Coalition is a non-profit Indigenous led organization. We have 175 members across
the country in every time zone, in every part of the country. And these are nations who
come forward voluntarily. We've never marketed because they want to be involved in major
projects, providing the projects are done in a manner that is compatible with what they're
after. And that might be better environmental protections, the planning and decommissioning
projects or the economic benefits, something. So if there's 600 nations in the country
and 175 are part of this organization voluntarily, it should smash that impression that Indigenous
people are against development. Indigenous people are against being pushed aside. That's
the big difference. And in the past, that's always what happens.
But things have changed, haven't they, over the last, say, 10 to 15 years. You've seen
that in the growth of your Coalition. And Canada is unique in that regard around the
world with the structures, the types of arrangements that are being made to partner with Indigenous
communities to get projects done. There's some really innovative things happening. The
Canadian law is becoming more and more supportive. And businesses seem to have realized that
regardless of what the law says, if you want to get these things done, you are going to
have to have the support of the Indigenous community.
What we're finding now is that companies are coming into communities realizing that Indigenous
people can be a strategic partner. Part of that is because very few of these projects,
especially larger projects, major projects, is the proponents, 100% of proponents capital.
They have to find other capital to come into these projects. Capital is risk-averse. They
want to know if their investors are putting their money in that they will get a return.
If you have the Indigenous partner on board as a co-owner or co-equity position, that
makes the First Nation a co-proponent. And what co-proponent is going to oppose their
own investment? So as far as we're concerned, it's a no-brainer at that point. You have
alignment on the project and then in theory on the approach to government for permitting.
And in some cases, our members go forward representing the project for the permitting
on behalf of the partnership. And think about how that reduces red tape and bureaucracy
when you're trying to get through the system.
Absolutely. And what you see is, you know, we talked about this transition. You know,
here you are, both of you, leaders in your field, well respected. And you have this whole
talent pool that has never been tapped into, but now you have Indigenous leaders in top
organizations across the country helping to shape and influence them. How do you think
that's going to change the next 10 years? If you look what you've accomplished in the
past 10 Mark is FNNPC. You know, what's that going to look like when you have access to
those decision makers on the other side of the table when you're trying to get things
done?
Well, what you're going to find is that this will be common sense. It'll become common
sense to have an Indigenous partner in some respects in your partner. And it doesn't matter
in what capacity, as long as the nation feels that they've been heard and that they've been
respected. And what you'll see is an acceleration of projects being approved, built, operating.
You're starting to see some challenges right now from the United States about where Canada
has access to the world. Well, we need to diversify our buyers. We need to be out in
the world. And in Canada, you need Indigenous consent to move these projects forward to
get government permitting. We have an opportunity now going forward to speed that up in partnership
with Indigenous people. And this is to benefit all of Canada. It's not just for the Indigenous
people. It's for everybody. It provides the revenues for general Canadian expenditures
in terms of health care, education, environmental protection, investment in our infrastructure.
So we have a grand opportunity to turn this on, the history on its head in a very short
time, as long as everybody realizes that we're all in this together. And First Nations, through
the Major Projects Coalition, have already indicated that they're willing to do that.
Yes, I keep thinking the Indigenous people of Greenland are actually going to look and
say, yeah, you might have a lot of money in America. But you know, we really, our brothers
and sisters, you know, there's an artificial border because we used to cross those waters.
No problem. I think we'll join Canada. Or Canada will join us. How would that be? Would
that go down well?
Well, if the Greenland, Indigenous Greenland population wants to do that, great. But I
think, I think that that would be a longer term perspective. Talk about causing more
fireworks though, in terms of what would happen in South Florida.
Absolutely, right.
Why don't we just invite Panama at the same time? Like they can come along.
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. They'll be concerned they're being constrained.
It's an interesting time, Mark, to take over leadership at the coalition. Some challenges
south of the border. We've got in Canada, uncertainty, a new leader, a new prime minister
will be appointed in the next month or so. Possible election, definite election before
October, possible change in government. How does all of that look, all of that uncertainty
affect plans of the coalition over the next year or so?
So in terms of Canada, change in government, we are a non-political organization. We focus
primarily on two issues, economic self-determination for nations and environmental self-determination.
We have been purposefully avoiding the politics. There's enough political organizations in
this country, especially in the indigenous realm, that they take care of that quite nicely.
And we think whatever happens with the government in the United States or in Canada or new prime
ministers and new parties, we're still going to need Canadian advancement in building these
projects, infrastructure, clean energy. It's still going to be needed. It doesn't matter
who the government is and we are still focused on that and we will remain laser focused on
that. We will work with any government that's coming in. And in many respects, it's the
capital that's more important to these projects right now than the government in Ottawa.
Our audience is UK, Canadian, and other parts of the world. Is there enough capital in Canada
to meet the needs over the next few years to get these projects done?
Canada has always had outside investment for the development of resources or infrastructure
in this country and that will continue. From a First Nations perspective, First Nations
will require about $585 billion in the coming decades to make co-investments in these projects.
So is there enough money in the country to cover that? We don't think so. We know that
our outreach to investors worldwide is important, that we are an important part of Canada's
export capabilities and part of Canada's infrastructure and the needs that this country
requires will need First Nations. So we see ourselves as working with the rest of Canada
to attract that capital to make sure that the investments are made for the benefit of
everyone.
Yes, well spoken.
You're relatively new to the role and I know it's been a bit of a whirlwind the last few
months but what are the priorities for the coalition in the coming year?
The big one is continued access to affordably priced capital for First Nations, for Indigenous
people. In this country, it is very difficult for nations to access traditional sources
of capital because under the Indian Act, which was passed in the 1800s, Indigenous people,
particularly First Nations, we don't own anything. All of our assets are held in trust
by the Crown, the federal government for our use. So we may have land that we're using,
property, income, but technically it's not ours. It's all held by the federal government,
which means we technically have no assets. So that makes it very difficult to access
capital, at least at an affordable rate. Our big push of the coalition is to continue to
knock that barrier down to ensure that nations do have the ability to participate in the
economy like anyone else.
Fantastic stuff. Maybe give us an idea of some of the projects you're working on now
or recently completed, some of your favorites, most innovative.
So the coalition at the moment, these are all on our website, is that we're supporting
14 projects now with a total capital expenditure of $45 billion and those projects are across
the country. 85% of the projects we support are in clean energy. Clean energy projects
are easier for First Nations because they have a regulated rate return. They tend to
be smaller, unlike a major mine can be $5 to $8 billion, but energy is easier to manage
in terms of working with consumers and investors.
The two projects that we're very proud of right now, the first one is the Chatham to
Lakeshore power line in Ontario that has five First Nations in a co-ownership, co-equity
position, 50% with the local utility, which is groundbreaking. That model now will be
replicated across Ontario and has become the standard for the world. We've had indigenous
parties from around the world contact us going, how does that work? 50% equity ownership.
And that will provide stable revenues to those communities. It provides them a say in the
planning, operation and decommissioning. It's also a rememberable decommissioning of projects.
That's astounding.
The other project we're quite proud of is a 10% equity stake in a gas pipeline across
Northern British Columbia. And this project again is a number of First Nations working
together in a commercial structure where they have that equity option. Their challenge right
now is to find the capital and we're working on it. But those are the beginnings of the
projects that we have been working on. We have other projects in land development. There's
a 15 megawatt geothermal power station in there. There's interest from a number of clean
energy projects across the country. There's also a critical minerals interest right now
in Northern Ontario and other parts of the West. We've been told that there's a number
of nations in Quebec who are about to join the coalition because they're looking for
skill sets in the same sort of projects in that part of the country. A lot of these projects
for export. And that puts us into trade situations, which frankly we've always been in. If you
look back even to the fur trade in Canada, what was that about? Well, it was export of
materials from Canada out and they needed First Nations to do it. So there's a lot of
things happening and we're quite proud of the work we've done and how we've helped
nations get to the table and reach their ambitions.
When you talk about supporting a project and helping members, what is the coalition actually
doing?
We are a non-profit. We don't take a finder's fee. We don't take any fee from the nations.
We're primarily supported by government right now, which we're working to diversify that
to our own income streams. But what we are is a capacity organization. We support the
organization to find the skill sets and if they haven't got them, we will find them for
them to get to the table to negotiate, to participate. And that can go the gambit from
how do you do a commercial structure to what is this industry about? For example, critical
minerals or clean energy, how does it work? We've had questions about small modular nuclear
reactors as well. That's an issue the nations are curious about. We will help them get to
the table and negotiate a deal, corporately structure themselves in a way that where they
are working perhaps with multiple First Nations in a linear project, we run the gambit of
it. So we are a support organization.
It's really an advantage to have an organization like yours that has insight into so many projects,
different sectors across the country and an ability to share that knowledge and those
learnings that is priceless, a priceless benefit to be able to give to members who may not
who have done projects or projects on the scale that they're looking at now ever before.
We have had a lot of interest over the past two or three years from nations who want to
move into export markets. To do that, they understand where they are on that supply chain.
In order to build that capacity to participate and the big one to think about is going forward
is what they do after they've had success. Revenues start flowing in, the revenues might
be used immediately by the nation, but you're starting to see situations now of large capital
pools controlled by indigenous people growing across the country. You're going to start
to see direct placement of investment by those communities in projects, in their interest,
in their territories. That should be of great interest to Canada and should be a great interest
to proponents that there's a local source of capital that brings with it not just the
capital, but the rights, the indigenous rights that would make a project more competitive,
especially in raising capital from other sources.
Yes, very much so. Coming back to some of the projects that you've described, are all
those nations part of your coalition or sometimes eight out of 10? How does that work?
We don't represent all nations in this country. If a nation decides they don't want development,
that's their right. They won't be a member of the coalition, obviously, because we do
one thing. If they're not part of the coalition, that's fine. The projects I've described,
they're linear projects. In the case of the gas pipeline in British Columbia, there's
I think 22 nations in the entire corridor. There are only 11 are with us. The others
are with other parties or negotiating or opposed. We will work with those communities if they
want to address that with other communities that might be opposed or their councils, but
it just depends on the situation. In some cases, we don't say yes to all projects that
come forward to the coalition. If it's something that we do not feel that we can add value
at this point, we will refer them to someone else. In many cases, the projects fall into
two main areas, which is critical minerals, clean energy. We will do our best to help
the community with those challenges.
Maybe Mark, tap into some of your knowledge and experience on community engagement, particularly
for international audience who are thinking about partnering, investing with Indigenous
communities. Any best practices you want to talk about?
It's a simple process. Come have coffee. That's the starting point. These are about relationships.
We've seen at times companies and governments do this too. They'll fire off a letter from
their lawyer to the council in very legal terms or business terms about what they're
expecting. If you're going to go meet your neighbor for the first time, would you have
a lawyer draft a letter and send it over and say, we would like to discuss the following
and the following time, the garden, the fence, the hose, the water use, and your sprinkling
note and use? No. People forget that. These are people in communities who are normal people.
Canadians have a challenge at times. Canadians can be overly polite and forget that. That's
what it comes down to. The example I gave earlier, the Japanese are just coming direct,
coming by, wanting to meet people, introducing themselves, building a relationship. Then
you can ask about things like the fence, the watering, the noise from your neighbor. You
can't do that until you've actually met them. I know it sounds simple, but companies forget
that. Investors forget that.
As much as I don't like to hear about lawyers being cut out of any process, I hear what
you're saying.
I'm careful here because I know you're a lawyer, but people aren't going to bond over
a cup of coffee across the backyard fence if a lawyer has come in first to set the terms
for the chat. There's a chance for a lawyer to get involved later once there's something
substantive to talk about, but it's that relationship. At the coalition, we've had companies from
overseas contact us saying, look, we're interested in this or that and we don't know how to proceed.
We don't know how to make contact with this nation because they might be overseas. We're
happy to introduce them saying, this is fine. If they're members of the coalition, it's
to say, here's so and so, here's the community, we'll do the introduction, and then we'll
see where it goes.
That's a great example, Mark. Does that happen that overseas investors come to your organization
first and say, can you tell us anything about who we need to talk to in this? Can you describe
a couple of examples like that?
I don't want to name the companies. We've had a European company come forward. They
were bidding on a government contract and they knew that part of the government contract
is by point system and one of them was an indigenous involvement, indigenous engagement,
indigenous benefits that might flow from this new project or contract. They contacted us
and said, well, and they were big, they were worldwide, but they didn't have contacts in
this area, so we helped them. We'll tell you who they are. We'll contact the members who
are in the area and say, this is the company, this is what they'd like to do, this is the
individual, would you like to meet them? And done that.
The Japanese example, which I referenced in terms of Japanese officials and company officials
coming into communities in British Columbia and wanting to asking to meet indigenous people
directly, that came about because of a contact through the major projects coalition. Then
we brought the nations down and people are curious. If you have 175 members in a coalition
like ours, they want business, they want investment, they want opportunities, so it's a perfect
fit.
One thing I'd like to point out too is that we put at the coalition, we run an annual
conference every April on some topic of indigenous corporate engagement. We bring the best examples
together. Our last conference, we had 1,700 people and we've had leading tribal indigenous
members from the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, who are starting to come
and leading corporate types who are also trying to make that connection. So CEOs of natural
gas energy companies in Canada, our keynote speaker was the US CEO of the Bank of America
this year. We've had the US Secretary of Energy come. So we are starting to become that point
where it's safe for parties to come in and say, look, this is what we want to talk about.
We do not talk about the political rights discussion that might have happened in the
news last week. We are focused on environment and commercial to get to our members' desire
to be partners in these projects.
Well, Mark Belasly, thank you again for joining us. Really interesting discussion, fascinating
time. Wishing you all the best. Everyone at the coalition, keep up the good work and we
look forward to welcoming you very shortly at the second annual Canadian Indigenous Investment
Summit in London on the 10th of April.
I am very much looking forward to meeting you both in person and sharing the message
of the coalition to those in attendance. Thank you.
Thank you, Mark. It's been wonderful to have you on.
Thank you to Mark Belasly for sharing his insights with us. If you enjoyed this conversation,
be sure to subscribe and leave a review by following our YouTube channel, Drum Beats
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of course, mark your calendar for the upcoming 2025 summit taking place on the 10th of April.
Thanks for listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.