1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Welcome to Drum Beats, the must-listen-to podcast for investors interested in Indigenous 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:10,160 investment in Canada. Born from the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit, the show focuses 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:14,080 on the intersection of Indigenous economic strategies and investment opportunities. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,200 I'm Mark McNack and my co-host Robert Brandt, and I are joined today by Cody Penner, 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:24,240 Vice President of Corporate Development for Nations Royalty. He was recently chosen as one of the five 6 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:30,640 2024-2025 Kakahashi Project Young Leaders, demonstrating his dedication to advancing 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,840 Indigenous interests in the resource sector. Join us as we explore how these critical conversations 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,840 are reshaping economic development across Canada. Cody Penner, thanks very much for joining us. 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:49,040 Thanks for having me. In the new year. It's great to have you with us. Nations Royalty getting a lot 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:55,200 of publicity these days, including at a conference, a mining conference, global mining conference in 11 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:02,880 London before Christmas. And we'll talk a little bit more about that. So we're really lucky to 12 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:09,840 have you with us to talk about yours and Nations Royalty's story. Awesome. Yeah, once again, thank 13 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:15,600 you for having me. Pleasure to have you here. And I think you also just came back from Japan. 14 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:21,120 Is that correct? Yeah, I was just in Japan for a week. It was a great experience. I got invited. 15 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:27,120 It's called the Kakahashi Project. And that means bridge in Japanese. And essentially, it's the Asia 16 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:34,080 Pacific Foundation nominate to get different nominations for young business leaders, what they 17 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:40,080 what they kind of label it as to go to Japan and experience the culture. We met with the Canadian 18 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,200 Business Council over there, talk about Indo-Pacific strategy, Japanese Business Council, the vice 19 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,160 minister of foreign affairs, the Hokkaido government, and the IEI new indigenous group, 20 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,920 which which I learned to, you know, I didn't spend much time looking at Japanese history, 21 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,080 but I learned there are indigenous people in Japan. So we actually got to go to their museum 22 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:03,360 and experience some of their culture. And we actually ate a chunk of dried salmon with them. 23 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,640 And we all sat like a traditional house. So I mean, fantastic trip, always wanted to go to Japan. 24 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:15,280 And to be able to go over that sort of passion was an amazing experience. Great country. Yeah. 25 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,880 Sounds like a really unique experience. Cody, why don't we start by talking a bit about you 26 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:28,080 and your background? Where did you grow up? I know you're a Teltan nation. I'm a proud member, 27 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,280 but tell us a bit more about your upbringing. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I grew up actually 28 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:40,560 outside of the nation. So born in Nelson, British Columbia, southern tip, southern mid kind of tip 29 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:47,120 of British Columbia, Western Canada, moved to Yellowknife in the in the Northwest Territories, 30 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,280 and then over to Strathmore, Alberta by Calgary, and then grew up in San Bernardin, BC. So kind 31 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:58,400 of moved all around Western Canada as a as a young person, and then ended up living in Vancouver, 32 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:05,360 worked a slew of different jobs, and then ended up working underground in a goldmine in Northwest 33 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,160 British Columbia called Bruce Jack goldmine now owned by Newmont. So dad's a miner, brother's a 34 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,240 mining engineer. So it's kind of been in my blood since I was young. So I did a fallout in the 35 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,040 footsteps and running heavy machinery, jack legs, big haul trucks, different equipment underground, 36 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,560 and then connected back with the Teltan nation and actually worked for the Teltan central 37 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,600 government as the employment director, which was a really good experience. I got to sit in elder 38 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,560 council meetings and board meetings really understand our strategy and how we want to grow as a nation, 39 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,600 right, and then decided to go back to school. So I studied commerce at the University of British 40 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:45,280 Columbia at Sauder, specialized in finance, and then worked in investor relations with Sina Resources, 41 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:52,000 mine up in Northwest BC, the past producing SK creep mine, and then worked for Gentus Capital 42 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:58,640 in investment research, so equity research in the mining space as a small boutique, Michael Gray is 43 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,680 one of the partners, fantastic geologist, so got to kind of mentor under him, and then worked at 44 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:11,680 tech resources in a strategy finance role in the copper growth team at tech. So our job was to 45 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:17,280 allocate capital across nine different development assets and, you know, kind of bring in all the 46 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:22,160 different factors of that, whether it's risk, jurisdiction, and all these different pieces to 47 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,160 see where we want to put our money to grow our copper output in the future, right, so very good 48 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,960 experience, and then I landed in nation's royalty. Also, I recently resigned, but for the past three 49 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:38,000 and a half years, I was the vice chair of the Teltan Nation Development Corporation, so I 50 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,880 definitely know a little bit about indigenous business, mining, capital markets, indigenous 51 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:48,240 government governance, and you bring that all together, and it lends quite well to helping grow 52 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:57,920 an indigenous-owned royalty company. Absolutely unique experience to have real, literally, 53 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:04,400 under the ground, in the ground experience, working with those rocks. Something that was 54 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,720 cool about that, that I really enjoyed, is I was actually working alongside a lot of my Teltan 55 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:14,160 family, so I got to go to community, and I got to understand, like, why do people do these jobs? Why 56 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,920 do you actually go in a, I mean, at the end of the day, it's a hole in the ground, right, like, you 57 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,040 know, it's got lighting, it's all safe, and like, all these things, but it's a hole in the ground. 58 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,600 It's a tough job. You're away from your family for three weeks at a time, and I got to really understand 59 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,000 why people do it, like, what are the values, right? It's family. You want your kids to get educated. 60 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,600 You want all these things to better yourselves and the community, and mining projects really help 61 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,600 provide that, so I'm deeply passionate about the industry and the value that it can drive at a 62 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:46,960 community level and at a government, BC, Canada level, whether it's tax revenue or the supply chain 63 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,680 inclusion, all these different pieces, but I'm very passionate about the industry, and like I said, 64 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,560 one thing about working in the mine is understanding what the mine means to the people, 65 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,000 right, what it means to the livelihood and their kids and for future generations. 66 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,440 That is great experience, and I think you're right, and when you talk through your profile, 67 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,360 I mean, I don't think there's that many people who've had that, you know, working in the mine 68 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:16,880 experience, even though, you know, mining's a huge industry, you know, that gives you a unique 69 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:22,000 perspective, and as you said, you know, how does that relate to the Indigenous peoples, you know, 70 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:27,760 and what are the values and why would you do something like that? So I think that's great 71 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:34,720 background, and now you're at Nations Royalty. I'm at Nations Royalty, yeah, so I'm Vice President 72 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,360 Corporate Development at Nations Royalty. I've been here since June, so June 10th was the start 73 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:45,440 date, and it's been an amazing experience. I, you know, it kind of came out of left field a little 74 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,680 bit for me, like I was working in tech, I had a great role, I wasn't planning on leaving, to be 75 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,920 honest, it was, it's a great company to work for. It's funny, the building that you see in the 76 00:06:53,920 --> 00:07:01,360 background is actually tech's main office, so I went across the street to this role, but when I 77 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,840 was working at the Telton Central Government, I was starting to understand how we created different 78 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:10,080 impact benefit agreements and how we got different equity deals and projects, and in my mind, I was 79 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:15,360 just like, there's got to be a way to leverage these financial instruments and these agreements 80 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:21,760 that we're creating to create extra value. Like, I watched the industry do it in other ways, right, 81 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:26,640 like what is a bank? A bank is essentially just a big lever, right, they lever a small amount of 82 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:32,720 deposits for financial gain, and I was looking at all the agreements we were creating as a teltonation, 83 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,280 I was like, there's got to be a way to lever this, and this company, Nations Royalty, was the first 84 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,920 one that I saw where you could create extra value with the things that we already own. 85 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:47,760 The premise of our business, and I'm sure we'll dive into it, is to collect different royalty 86 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:53,040 streams from different Indigenous groups across Canada internationally into a single vehicle, 87 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:59,520 publicly traded vehicle, to create extra value above and beyond what they're worth by themselves. 88 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:06,080 So when I saw the news release go out in February, I believe, I thought, holy cow, this is the answer 89 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,400 to the question that I had when I was working at the Telton Central Government. Basically, from 90 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:16,800 there, I connected Rob, our Interim CEO, and Ryan Weymark, one of the co-founders as well, 91 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,040 and started the conversation, and a few months later ended up at Nations Royalty. 92 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:27,360 Beautiful. Tell us a bit about the genesis of the Nations Royalty, the business, 93 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,480 it's relatively new business, it's a new concept. 94 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,720 Yeah, yeah, well, it's funny, it's a new concept, but it's actually an old business model, 95 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,920 right? The mining royalty business model has been around for decades. So you have the Weeden 96 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,480 Precious Metals and the Franco Nevada and the Royal Gold, those are the three big royalty companies, 97 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:50,000 and they've been around for 30 plus years. I think Franco Nevada initially went public in the 80s, 98 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:56,720 late 80s, with the Gold Strike Deposit in Nevada. And since then, they have been some of the top 99 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:03,600 performing mining and metals companies in the market, right? People love the business model, 100 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,480 right? You get access to the underlying commodity by directly investing in a royalty, right? Which 101 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:13,520 is essentially just a part of production. There's different structures, but the top royalty companies 102 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:19,040 have top-line royalties, right? Net smelt returns, gross royalty revenues, things of those natures. 103 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:26,000 So an investor loves that. They get access to the commodity without the downside erosion of operating 104 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,280 a mine, right? So if you want to get access to gold, say you believe gold is going to go up, 105 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,680 how do you invest? You can either buy bullion, right? You can go buy a chunk of gold if you'd like, 106 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:39,920 go buy an ETF. If you want leverage on it, then you go into the equities, 107 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,680 right? You can either go exploration, which generally gives you a little bit more of a lift, 108 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:48,080 or you go into a senior producer, a little bit less of a lift. Royalty companies are the exact 109 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,000 same. If you invest in a precious metal royalty company, you get access to that commodity, but 110 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:59,680 once again, you don't have the underlying erosion of operating. So we use that exact same business 111 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:05,200 model that investors love and that they pay a premium for, upwards of two times PNAP, 112 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:10,400 price over net asset value, which is a very high valuation. We're in the exact same business model, 113 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:17,520 but with a new twist. We work in the indigenous royalty space. So the indigenous people of Canada 114 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:23,600 and internationally have a tremendous amount of value in their royalty agreements, right? So 115 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:30,880 say if you're a miner that wants to bring an asset into production in the past 30 years in Canada, 116 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,320 you most likely have an impact benefit agreement signed with your local indigenous group. 117 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:39,200 Within that impact benefit agreement, there's many things. There's education, infrastructure spend, 118 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:44,000 cultural revitalization, what have you. And then there'll be financial payments, 119 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,520 which is essentially a royalty, right? And just to show you the size, in Canada alone, 120 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:55,200 in 2023, there was $350 million worth of these payments paid to indigenous groups, 121 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,680 just in the metals and mining sector. If you include oil and gas, that number actually 122 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:05,440 climbs to over $700 million. That's cash payments paid to indigenous groups just in 2023. 123 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:11,840 Those payments are all going to indigenous groups by themselves. They're in isolation. What we look 124 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:18,400 to do is collect them into a singular umbrella, nation's royalty, in exchange for equity or 125 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,800 potentially cash in our company. So that'll be the exchange with the indigenous group. We'll get the 126 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:28,720 rights to all or a portion of those future payments and we'll issue new shares, new 127 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,880 equity, and we'll give that to them. It's a value exchange, right? If they want a cash portion, 128 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,960 we could do cash, but we would really like them to be partners with us and come along the journey. 129 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:42,160 And what happens is when you collect more of these royalties into a single portfolio, 130 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,800 just like the Francos and the large, the Royal Golds, just like they have done, 131 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:54,800 you build a diversified portfolio of top tier royalties. And you can extrapolate and get 132 00:11:54,800 --> 00:12:00,400 those premium valuations that go above and beyond the net asset value that any single royalties worth. 133 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:06,720 So same business model, but with a new twist, we're first movers in the space. There's never 134 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,280 been anybody that's done this before, right? These agreements have existed for a long time, 135 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:16,240 but no one's actually created indigenous royalty company. This is the first one, right? So we're 136 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:23,360 first movers in this space. And when I talk about that $700 million market, some of these royalty 137 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:31,280 companies traded 24, 25 times cashflow. So you can only imagine the size, the size of the company 138 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,960 that we can create if we're able to capture, you know, sit and capture 300 million of that 700 139 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:42,080 million, right? You can have a serious, serious royalty company in a matter of years, if we can 140 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:48,480 achieve our growth strategy. And will you be precious metals only royalties or? Yeah, 141 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:54,240 precious metals focused. So in, in Canada, there's a significant amount of top tier gold mines and, 142 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,480 you know, Canada is a safe jurisdiction, right? We don't have a ton of geopolitical risk, all 143 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,640 these different things. And if it's already operating, then it already has a, if you'd like 144 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,960 to label this a social license to it. And if we're working with the local indigenous group, 145 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:13,360 that's a pretty, you know, de-risked investment, right? So precious metals, safe jurisdictions, 146 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,640 investors love that, right? Once again, there's much less geopolitical risk. Canada has some 147 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,680 amazing geology. We have some top tier gold mines in the world, I would say, you know, detour gold 148 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:28,080 mine, Canadian malarctic, Meliodine, even those are kind of running out. Blackwater's about to 149 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,960 come online soon. We have Bruce Jack, which we actually have a royalty on. And, and we would 150 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,560 like to be precious metals focused, but we're also looking at base metals and energy as well. 151 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,840 And to prove the model, we might end up doing a partnership on something that's out of 152 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,520 precious metals, but long-term focus, we would like precious metals exposure that's above 50%, 153 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:55,120 you know, 70, 75% somewhere around that. And you went public earlier this year, 154 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:01,760 you raised to the small financing and you must have weighed up the pros and cons of 155 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:09,120 going public versus raising money in other ways. Why go public? Yeah, it's always been an interesting 156 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,000 one. I mean, go on public is always a benefit because it's easier to do your marketing and the 157 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:20,800 concept is proven as well. Right? So when, when the inception of this was kind of brought forward by 158 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:26,960 Rob McCloud or interim CEO, initial leadership, it's, it's an idea until you kind of go public 159 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,680 or kind of move it forward in that matter. Because when you go public, you allow investors to 160 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,720 obviously purchase shares on the market and that pushes the price up. So you receive those premium 161 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:42,720 valuations, right? Basically those, you know, an increased PNAV or price over net asset value is 162 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:49,520 essentially perception, right? The market perceives that you're going to be, you know, increasing cash 163 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,600 flow or getting more precious metal focus or whatever it may be. So you get that higher 164 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,320 valuation. So that's one of the top reasons that we wanted to go public. And it's also easier to 165 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:03,600 raise capital in that form. It's, it's a, it's a tough market right now, especially for juniors 166 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,320 and royalty companies and things like that. If you're not a top producer that's stable and dividend 167 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:14,000 producing, it's difficult to raise capital. So going public made that a little bit easier. We 168 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:20,800 work in the Fiore Group, which is, which is headed off by Frank Giustra. For those of you that don't 169 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:25,520 know him, he's a mining entrepreneur. He's, he was the co-founder of Wheat and Precious Metals, 170 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,520 which is the largest royalty company in the world. They trade around 40 billion Canadian. 171 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,960 And, and he was the co-founder of Goldcorp, which was the largest gold mining company in the planet. 172 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:40,560 So very successful mining entrepreneur. And he really helped him in the Fiore Group, Gordon 173 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,960 Keefe and their team really helped us go public and access capital when others weren't able to, 174 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,800 which is a huge, huge benefit. So going public has some, has some downsides. Obviously it's a 175 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,360 little bit more, you know, a little more regulatory filings and pieces like that. It costs a little 176 00:15:55,360 --> 00:16:01,120 bit more, but the access to capital, the increased valuations, and also the proof of concept, right? 177 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,920 When we're talking with other indigenous groups, we can now say that we are a public company, 178 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,600 we're publicly traded, you can go buy our shares if you'd like. And that really changes the 179 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:14,400 conversation as well, versus being like, oh, this is an idea, right? We have these five royalties 180 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,120 that the Nishka own and we want to put them into a public company and then get other ones. We 181 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,360 already have done that. We've already gone public. We're trading on the market. We trade on the 182 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:32,560 Frankfurt, the OT, OQ, OTC, TB, sorry, in the States and, and on TSXB in Canada. So we're already 183 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,680 trading and that alleviates a lot of pressure of having to do that in the future. 184 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:43,040 And I guess if you're trying to convince other indigenous nations, communities to sell you their 185 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:49,600 royalties, then if you're trading more liquid, publicly traded stock, then that's a little bit 186 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:56,000 easier conversation to have. Yeah, it's definitely an easier conversation. We do have a little volume 187 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,160 right now. We have a very tight bloat, which is something that we're going to have to look at in 188 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:07,920 the future, but yeah, 100%. It makes it much more palatable partnership when you can actually see 189 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,160 that it's trading and there is a path to being able to say you need to liquidate a little bit. 190 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:18,400 You want to do a community, community development project like increase or build a road or 191 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:24,720 a school or put money into education, what have you. You have an option to sell some of your 192 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:30,640 position and actually put that money towards that, right? Or lever it, depending how you 193 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:36,000 structure your trust, right? So if an indigenous group ends up with a big chunk of nations royalty 194 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,640 equity in the future, they might be able to lever on that. And that's what gets me excited about this 195 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,760 job is being able to create wealth for indigenous groups and build up a balance sheet with them. 196 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:51,760 So they can actually go do these projects that they want to do. So I think there's a couple 197 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,480 of interesting things because you're an example of a proven business model. Now that the indigenous 198 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:03,680 peoples of Canada own their assets and there's less barriers for them leveraging them and managing 199 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:09,920 and developing their own nations and territory. You're a good example of here's a proven business 200 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,880 model. Now we're going to apply this to the indigenous peoples. Yeah, that's exactly it. 201 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:20,000 And like I said, it's going back to in my personal experience, it's going back to that. My thoughts 202 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,520 when I was working in the Telethon Central Government, I think in 2019 of like, okay, 203 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,560 how do we lever what we already have? Right? Like this is to your point, a proven business model. 204 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:34,800 People have done this before and received up to two times the PNAB valuation, which means 205 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,600 they're, you know, I'm just going to make an example up for the listeners. If you have $10 million 206 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:47,040 sitting in a one times PNAB company, that's worth $10 million. If you have that exact same 207 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:54,160 $10 million sitting in a two times PNAB company, it's worth $20 million to the market. Right? So 208 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:59,280 you're creating extra value that would never have been achieved if you didn't create the business 209 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:05,040 and pool these royalties. It's an amazing business model. It almost sounds like magic, right? But 210 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,720 you got to think about it. My earlier comments, building out a nice diversified portfolio of top 211 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:18,240 producing precious metals and other mines creates a tremendous amount of value that investors love 212 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,560 and it's been proven for years. And to your point, we're just doing it with a new twist with 213 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:29,200 indigenous lens on it. Yes. You mentioned that the PNAB is a very important business model. 214 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:35,920 They have come in as the initial transfer their role, some of their royalty streams, 215 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,880 I assume it's not all of their royalties. It's funny. They actually transferred 216 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,920 in all five of their impact benefit agreement royalty. So in group in British Columbia, 217 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,560 there's two kind of royalty streams, if you'd like to label them as royalties that go to 218 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:56,320 indigenous groups. First is with the province. So they actually have a tax revenue sharing 219 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:01,680 agreement where part of the taxes paid from the mine go to the local Indigenous group, 220 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:08,200 the impact community, which is amazing. And then on the second side, you have an impact 221 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,040 benefit agreement that's signed directly between the Indigenous group and the mining company, 222 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,920 the proponent. And that royalty structure can be different. It's whatever's negotiated 223 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:24,080 between the groups. And Nishka actually vended in all five of their impact benefit agreement 224 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:30,160 payments, intonations, royalties. So we did a quick model on it when they were kind of 225 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,760 going through the inception and the net asset value of those five royalties, just the impact 226 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:42,360 benefit agreement side, was 214 million US. So when they kind of saw that, Nishka has 227 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:47,840 always been leaders in many, many senses. And when they saw that, they thought, holy cow, 228 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,880 we have the inception of a royalty company, right? Because it's a significant amount 229 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:58,240 of money. A lot of it is in the future and development stage. But once those start paying, 230 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,000 those cash flows that we will start to see will lend very well to the company and we'll 231 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,760 be able to redeploy those into high return areas. 232 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:14,560 And I guess from Nishka's perspective, they're all in. How tied in are they with their, could 233 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,720 they sell their shares tomorrow if they wanted to? 234 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,800 Yeah, well, they have a three-year escrow. So they have a three-year holding period on 235 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:29,120 their shares. They own 77% of the company, which is significant, right? Those are invested 236 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:35,040 a little in different periods throughout three years, but they're in this for the long haul. 237 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:40,800 They said to us on multiple occasions, they've said publicly, they are in this to grow. They 238 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:46,920 would rather own 10% of a $2 billion company than 77% of a $100 million company. And they, 239 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,040 I mean, Charles Morbin, the secretary of charter has publicly said, like, they would like to 240 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,720 never sell them. They would like to see this grow and bolster their balance sheet, pay 241 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:02,280 dividends for a long, long time, and give them the ability to lever off of their equity 242 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:08,440 in the future to use this as a nice base, nice principal base to grow off of. So they're 243 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,000 in it for the long haul. They believe in the concept. They actually go and do nation to 244 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,320 nation meetings with us. They were just at Resourcing Tomorrow in London, as you mentioned 245 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:21,200 earlier, Rob, with us, and they're extremely supportive of the business. And once again, 246 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,160 they're in it for the long haul. They want to see this turn into a multi-billion dollar 247 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,320 company and they're all in. 248 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:34,080 And I guess from their perspective, it's a chance to diversify themselves once the company 249 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:40,880 develops and is able to bring in more royalty streams. It'll help diversify their own cash 250 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:41,880 flows. 251 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,520 Yeah, 100%. And that's kind of the premise of the whole business model is building out 252 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:53,760 a nice portfolio of these royalty streams. When you are able to create diversification 253 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,600 through owning many different royalties, that takes the load off of the ones that you have 254 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:05,800 in your territory. Nishka is lucky that they had five agreements that they had prior to 255 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:11,280 vesting the maintenance royalty. Some groups only have one or two. So if there would happen 256 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,840 to be a disaster at the mine, their payments would go to zero. But if they own equity in 257 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,840 nations' royalty as we build out this portfolio, it's better to own a little bit of many royalties 258 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,840 and 100% of one. And that's the vision that Nishka had as well. 259 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,200 The Golden Triangle, where Nishka is in Northwest British Columbia, is one of the hottest mineral 260 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:38,960 exploration and mining zones globally. And even though it is a top zone, things do happen. 261 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,440 Company prices can slump. Some key infrastructure might not get in place up here. There's different 262 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,840 pieces that might not happen. But if they're able to share their royalties with other groups 263 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,920 and those other groups share their royalties with Nishka, you're able to lower risk for 264 00:23:53,920 --> 00:24:00,160 all groups and create those premium valuations that royalty companies have been receiving 265 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,400 for years. 266 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:08,420 And what about, Cody, some of the pain points that other indigenous nations are looking 267 00:24:08,420 --> 00:24:13,640 at? What are some of the areas that they think are challenging to come in and participate 268 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,200 in the model? How do you address some of those points? 269 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:21,140 Yeah, of course. I mean, there's many things to do. I mean, one of the things too is it's 270 00:24:21,140 --> 00:24:26,360 a new venture is one of the main pieces, right? Like you're an indigenous group, you've already 271 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:31,960 come up with this agreement with the company and you use lawyers in this whole process 272 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,880 and you've achieved this agreement. You've got it. But now somebody comes in and there's 273 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:41,600 this new model. They're like, hey, bend in that royalty for equity in the company. And 274 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,560 it's a little bit scary, right? Like there's a little bit of risk to it outside of just 275 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,880 sitting there and waiting to collect checks. You can receive a ton of extra value, once 276 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,480 again, upwards of two times the value, which is tremendous. And there's a bunch of things 277 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,840 that go through on the valuation piece, but it's a new venture. It poses a little bit 278 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,160 of risk. So our biggest piece is education, right? It's going to different groups and 279 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,440 explaining what the royalty model is, explaining how we can create extra value, how we can 280 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:18,880 lower risk, right? And all these wonderful pieces that a royalty company can provide. 281 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:24,780 So a big part of it is the capacity and the education and the training, right? And sometimes 282 00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:29,000 we go in and we chat with chief and councils and different folks and they have them. I 283 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,920 mean, they are very busy people with a million pressures on them, right? They have community 284 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,760 concerns. They have education to think about wildlife, environment, all these brand claims, 285 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,640 all these things. So when I come in and I'm like, hey, do you want to invest in a royalty 286 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,720 model? Right now it's like, okay, well, what is a royalty model? So now we need to start 287 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,760 kind of from that point forward. So some of the main points is once again, understanding 288 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:58,580 that and then pending on the group is getting community to understand that as well. Right? 289 00:25:58,580 --> 00:26:03,680 So I mean, it's one thing to talk with advisors and financial people and chief and councils, 290 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,200 but pending on how the group's structured, some want us to talk with community. So now 291 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,400 we're once again, trying to explain a mining royalty model to community. And some of them 292 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,560 might be, you know, maybe they're electricians or they're, or they work in HR or they work 293 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:21,480 in these different areas that isn't, you know, mining finance. So a big part of it is, is 294 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:28,520 the educational process, the risk piece. And, and there's always more from that, from that 295 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,800 end. Sometimes it's control as well. We do offer indigenous groups, if they do end up 296 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,040 with a large piece of equity in our company, we do say that we'll have a board seat, right? 297 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:43,200 And a structure. And you'll be able to help guide the company. But as the company grows 298 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:49,400 and we become a billion, two, three, $4 billion company, your equity will shrink naturally. 299 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,920 So, so it's a control piece too, right? So some groups are saying, well, I actually own 300 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,500 my royalty now 100%. I'm going to receive those payments by vested into you. Now you 301 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:04,120 control that investment. You control that money going forward. So now we need to just 302 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:08,520 show them like, Hey, you know, we have people like myself and our chief investment officer, 303 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,720 Derek Patton, our CEO, Rob McLeod, Frank Giustra. We have all these people that are able to 304 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:19,880 use those funds to deploy them into high return areas. That'll give you a good return, right? 305 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,880 So it's a control thing. It's an educational thing. And, and we're working through those. 306 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,960 I mean, we're a new company. Obviously there's going to be bumps in the road, but we have 307 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,200 been able to answer a lot of those questions and it's been going very well. And we hope 308 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:37,800 to have some partnerships in the near. Excellent. And you're also on a number of different markets 309 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,520 as you, as you mentioned earlier, you know, for example, in Germany, what's the pitch 310 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,120 to potential investors in Germany? And you know, of course you've just started out and 311 00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:50,680 it's, it's early days, but some people must be coming and asking questions. Cause you're 312 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,640 probably introducing not necessarily a new business model, but as we said with the indigenous 313 00:27:54,640 --> 00:28:00,360 peoples and that's kind of new and different. Yeah, no, it's, it's new and different. And 314 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:04,680 so what I, what I like to tell investors in the European markets, I might not understand 315 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,560 the indigenous landscape quite as much as a Canadian investor or potentially an American 316 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,480 investor is this is this is the same business model. Once again, it's the same model as 317 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,720 the Franco, the Wheaton, all these great companies, but with the new twist, right? So where do 318 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,200 you want to put your money if you're investing in a royalty company? Right? All these small 319 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,560 companies have been having a very, very hard time growing. They either need to niche into, 320 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,260 you know, different markets, you know, maybe they're here with lithium play, which it doesn't 321 00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:36,960 have a proven PNAP multiple, or they go into unsafe jurisdictions or they have to go earlier 322 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,560 in the development stage into exploration. I'm talking with indigenous groups that have 323 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,880 royalties on some of the top producing gold lines in Canada, right? So if you like royalty 324 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,000 companies and you want torque on the price and you want to put your money on a bet that 325 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:59,440 that has that, that can actually achieve a portfolio of top tier royalties in safe jurisdictions. 326 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,040 We're a great bet. We're, we're, we're a great company to put that money into and watch us 327 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,320 grow because once again, there's no other small royalty company that's able to talk 328 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,400 with and did with, with, you know, large mining companies like, like each who are Canadian, 329 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,240 Malartic or Blackwater, all these ones that I mentioned, there's actually, even if you're 330 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,720 a large royalty company, no one's going to even create a royalty on these, on these mines. 331 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,600 They're like the only companies that have a royalty on them are Wheaton and Franco or 332 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,440 the large ones because they put in that construction capital at the, at the outset. We're the only 333 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:34,240 company that can go in now in 2025 and get a royalty on these top mines. So when you 334 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:39,560 talk about creating a multi-billion dollar business, that's, that's stable, safe, and 335 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:46,160 will provide long-term shareholder value. I believe we're great, great option. 336 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:52,920 And Cody, any thought of involving indigenous groups from outside of Canada who might have 337 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,520 royalty streams of their own on some, some great mines around the world? 338 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:04,040 Yeah, 100%. We, one thing about the Canadian indigenous landscape is it's much further 339 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:09,480 ahead and more developed than a lot of the other places on the globe. The relationship 340 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,120 between the Crown and indigenous people in Canada from the Royal Proclamation, I don't 341 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:18,040 need to give a history lesson to listeners, but since kind of its colonization has gone 342 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:24,040 a lot farther than let's say the US or Australia or Chile or all these other places. So the 343 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:30,000 agreements are much better. That $350 million that I had mentioned, I can't find anything 344 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,360 that compares to that internationally. I'm definitely talking with groups in Australia, 345 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,920 some of the US, there's some really big oil royalties and know the other groups in Alaska 346 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:45,760 are very developed and some others. So mainly focused in Canada, we have a lot of wood to 347 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,160 chop as mentioned, 350 million in the metals and mining space, and then, you know, over 348 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,640 700 million with oil and gas, like just to collect that in itself is a tremendous feat, 349 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,680 but definitely looking international. Talking, like I said, talking with some groups in Australia, 350 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,920 there's a few royalties coming up there, but it's not commonplace for industry to actually 351 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:10,160 pay indigenous groups royalties. They're used to only paying government royalties. And that's 352 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,240 kind of like the mindset down there. I've chatted with a few different folks. And in 353 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:19,500 the States, they don't have the kind of unceded territory, jurisdictional legal landscape 354 00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:24,600 that we have in Canada, right? So, I mean, Canada is our primary focus, but you are starting 355 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:30,600 to see better agreements go over the border into the US and Australia. So, you know, we're 356 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,520 doing our best to advocate for indigenous people and getting better financial payments 357 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,040 and agreements. And hopefully we start to see more impact benefit agreements, financial 358 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,760 payments going internationally in the coming years. 359 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:47,680 Yeah, it's one of the latest great Canadian exports, I think, is what's happening in the 360 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:53,160 US, though some of the structures being used in the indigenous economy in Canada. We as 361 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,880 a law firm are getting calls from other groups in other parts of the world, including the 362 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:06,160 States, Central America, saying we're noticing what Canadian indigenous groups are doing. 363 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,840 And we'd like to understand how they're structuring some of these arrangements. 364 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:16,280 Yeah, 100%. So, one example that I have that actually just hit home recently, I was at 365 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,800 the Beaver Creek Precious Meadows Summit in Beaver Creek, Colorado. And I was chatting 366 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,840 with George Salamis with Integra Resources. So, they have some projects in the States. 367 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,520 And the Teltan Nation actually has some very developed agreements, whether it's government 368 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:38,800 to government or industry to Teltan. And George had brought up three tribes, they call them 369 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,320 in the States, to Teltan territory to actually learn about our impact benefit agreements 370 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:49,160 and to adopt those on their project. So, shout out to Integra for doing fantastic work. But 371 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,600 that's just one example of groups kind of looking towards Canada and the agreements 372 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,960 that we have set to help progress their projects in their jurisdictions as well, because it's 373 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:04,080 a huge de-risking process. It's a partnership, right? Creating good agreement from the get-go 374 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:10,560 is a huge de-risking piece for the life of the project. And if you can create good agreements 375 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:16,080 from the beginning, you can create alignment and you can de-risk returns for shareholders 376 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,580 and all your stakeholders and rights holders alike. 377 00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:26,320 You mentioned Frank Giustra. He's a legendary investor, well known in London, mining and 378 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:33,720 investing circles, Canadian. How involved is he in the business? 379 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:39,960 Yeah, Frank has been amazing for helping us get this company off the ground, getting publicity 380 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:48,040 for it and just being a fan of it. When Rob McLeod and Nishka initially brought this idea 381 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,200 to him, he said that this is going to be as impactful as streaming was and as the advent 382 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,280 of streaming was in 2004, which is what Weed and Precious Metals was built on. It's the 383 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,680 largest royalty stream company in the world. So, he saw the tremendous amount of value 384 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,200 that could be created by pooling these royalties, these indigenous royalties, and he's helped 385 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:14,120 us do different marketing pieces. He's a cornerstone on our corporate presentation for anyone that 386 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,120 looks at that, obviously. He speaks about it. He's helped us with our financing. He's 387 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,840 helped guide and mentor us and me personally as well and really helped us grow this company. 388 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,180 He knows what steps to take to create a top royalty company as one of the co-founders 389 00:34:29,180 --> 00:34:35,440 of Wheaton. And he's one of our major shareholders outside of Nishka. So, he is our largest shareholder 390 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:43,560 outside of the Nishka Nation, who owns 77%. And once again, huge advocate and we're blessed 391 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,480 to be in his office to help grow this thing because once again, he was there for Weed 392 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,960 to grow into a $40 billion market cap royalty company and we look to do the same. And with 393 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,600 his guidance, some of the rest of the members of the team that we have, we believe we can 394 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:58,600 achieve that goal. 395 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,840 So, I think you're the first and largest-owned indigenous public company in Canada, if not 396 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,560 across the world now. What exactly does that mean? 397 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:14,160 Yeah, of course. So, we're 77% owned by the Nishka First Nation, which I explained earlier, 398 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,880 but the First Nation Group in Northwest British Columbia. There's never been a public company 399 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:24,280 like this. So, on your average day where we've been trading around 80 to $90 million and 400 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:29,640 once again, Nishka owns 77% of this. So, it's a really big step forward for indigenous inclusion 401 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:35,880 into the public capital markets. The indigenous groups have been using private equity and 402 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,200 debt and other financial means, but this is the first majority of the just owned public 403 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:45,680 company, which is fantastic. And if anybody wants to invest in a company where your dollars 404 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:51,320 go directly into indigenous people, this is the only company on the market. It's generally 405 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,200 you're investing in the mining spaces, mining spaces, and they use their money to invest 406 00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,960 in community benefits and culture and all these infrastructure and all these things. 407 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,000 If you put, I'm just going to make a number up, say you put a million dollars into our 408 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:10,440 company or many investors do and our share price went up 20%, Nishka Nation's net worth 409 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:18,520 just went up 20% in this equity, right? And our first goal is shareholder return. Our 410 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:23,680 second goal is capacity building. So, I'm a Teletent First Nation member. The majority 411 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,280 of our management team is indigenous. We look to keep it that way. We're actually searching 412 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:33,240 for an indigenous CEO. The majority of our board is indigenous and we look to build indigenous 413 00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:37,360 capacity into the public markets, right? We're learning from Frank Giustra. We're working 414 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,760 from Gord Keepe, Rob McCloud, our CEO has been in the markets for years. We're helping 415 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,040 to build the next generation of indigenous leaders that are going to be going into the 416 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:51,200 public markets and scaling public companies that are indigenous owned. So, we think it's 417 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,240 really cool. We're the first and we certainly hope we're not the last, right? We see it 418 00:36:56,240 --> 00:37:02,800 as a business strategy and a tactic to help grow a top royalty company. But we're also 419 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,520 being a shining example of what can be done when you can access risk capital in the public 420 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,640 markets and capital that you can't get when you're looking to pull down debt or private 421 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,600 equity, right? It gives you that seed capital, build projects that have a little bit of a 422 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,680 higher risk portfolio or profile from the get go. And generally, that's what is sitting 423 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,760 on indigenous land if it's a natural resource project. So, we're hoping we're the first, 424 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,080 we hope we're not the last. We're using it as a first mover advantage to grow a top royalty 425 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,480 company. And it's a really big part of what we do here at Nations Royalty. 426 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:38,200 Yes, that is exciting. And certainly the power of the network as you're talking about, you 427 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,800 know, indigenous management growing forward and as the company grows, those people will 428 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,840 move off and you start to develop that network. I think the other just interesting things 429 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,880 we like to speak to different indigenous leaders, you have some items in your office there besides 430 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,000 the beautiful sun that is of course, a lot of grain behind Rob as the sun is set and 431 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:04,240 it didn't even arrive today in London. The sun is shining behind you, but you have some 432 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:10,440 indigenous art I see in your office there. Is there a special story on that? 433 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:16,800 So I'm sorry, you asked. Thank you, Mark. This one right here is very special to me. 434 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:23,600 There's a famous Teltan artist named Dempsey Ball recently passed. He's a fantastic person, 435 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:31,800 made a tremendous amount of art. I was at the Audane Museum at Whistler last year, the 436 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,240 year before, and his art was on display in the whole gallery, right? He had an exhibit 437 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:43,520 that covered the whole gallery. Very famous artist. My mom had this piece of art in a 438 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,800 storage container for like 30 or 40 years, or maybe even longer. It was just sitting 439 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:56,600 in a suitcase and it's an original Dempsey Ball before he became famous, which I thought 440 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:02,360 was very, very cool. I don't know what it's worth or its value, but my mom had it for 441 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:08,640 this tremendous amount of time. How he kind of developed his artistic skills is when he 442 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,640 first started out, he used a lot of paint, right? Because it could cover up some of the 443 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,720 impurities and different pieces like that. So you can see like there's a lot of red and 444 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:23,880 black on it. And as he developed, he used less and less color when his most, like, you 445 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:29,200 know, his kind of newest pieces were, there was no paint. It was all just carved in there. 446 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,240 They're absolutely beautiful. So you can tell that it's an older piece. And this one's very 447 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:37,840 special to me. So thank you for asking. That one hits home for myself. 448 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,000 You're welcome. And we've just given it a global audience. So now everybody knows about 449 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,520 this piece of art you now have. Perfect. 450 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:52,400 Cody Penner of Nations Royalty, thanks again for your time and best of luck with this new, 451 00:39:52,400 --> 00:40:00,440 old, old model enterprise. It's a great example of the way indigenous finance is evolving. 452 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,840 Amazing. Thank you guys for having me. 453 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,720 Good luck. Have you on. 454 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:10,440 Thank you to Cody Penner for sharing his insights with us. If you enjoyed this conversation, 455 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,320 be sure to subscribe and leave a review by following our YouTube channel at Drum Beats 456 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,560 Podcast. Don't forget also to follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and other platforms 457 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,480 shown in the description below. And visit our website for more resources and upcoming 458 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:31,080 discussion. Mark your calendars for the upcoming 2025 Summit taking place on the 10th of April. 459 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:49,760 Thanks for listening to Drum Beats. Until next time.