1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Welcome to Drum Beats, the must listen to podcast for investors exploring indigenous investment opportunities in Canada. 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Born from the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit, our show focuses on the nexus of indigenous economic strategies and investment potential. 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,000 I'm Mark McNacca and I'm joined by my co-host Robert Brent. 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:27,000 Today we discuss British Columbia Hydro's call for power and the strong response from producers, including their indigenous stakeholders, 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,000 as well as a report from the Conference Board of Canada on Indigenous Trusts Across the Country. 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000 Join us to uncover how these discussions shape economic development within indigenous communities and beyond. 7 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,000 Good afternoon. Rob, welcome back to London. 8 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,000 Thank you. You've been back in Canada across the country. 9 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:54,000 I have. I've been in Vancouver and Calgary, but it's great to be back in London for December and the run up to Christmas. 10 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,000 What's going on? Christmas is always special here. I've always felt that. 11 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:03,000 I grew up reading Dickens Christmas Carols and when I first arrived, it was like, where's the snow? 12 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:10,000 Which rarely comes here, but I'm sure if you were in Alberta, you probably had some snow in Canada. 13 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:16,000 A lot of Canada is getting some cold weather. It was minus 20 in Calgary last week and a foot of snow. 14 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,000 Wow. So it didn't miss anything. 15 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:25,000 Right. Here we went down. I think we nearly got to zero. We had some frost and then it's back up at 15 again. 16 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,000 That's absolutely crazy. Very typical English weather. 17 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:35,000 Anyway, so you spent some time in Canada and what were you up to over there? 18 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:42,000 Well, one of the things we did, we hosted a little conference in our Vancouver offices for our clients 19 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:51,000 and the focus was on the recent BC hydro call for power. We talked to clients about what that meant 20 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:59,000 and also some lessons learned because they're with all of these proposals for power. 21 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,000 There's an Indigenous equity component that's required. 22 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,000 Okay. And BC, of course, being British Columbia. 23 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,000 Absolutely. 24 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,000 North of California for some of our listeners who haven't been there before. 25 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,000 That's right. 26 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,000 Okay. 27 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:17,000 It was BC Hydro who put out the call to power in April of this year. 28 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:22,000 And BC Hydro is the only power company in BC? 29 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,000 Yeah. Yes, they are. 30 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,000 Pervince owners? 31 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,000 Absolutely. 32 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:32,000 And they put out a call. This is their first call for new power in 15 years in British Columbia. 33 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,000 Wow. 34 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:43,000 And they have requested approximately 3,000 gigawatt hours per year of new clean electricity was the call. 35 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:52,000 And is it, sorry, just with that, is that because they're running up to their limits or it's for what they see as the expansion plans 36 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,000 because 15 years with no new capacity coming online? 37 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Yeah. No, there's a bit of urgency to this call. 38 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:05,000 The BC government revised their forecast for their needs for power into the future. 39 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:13,000 And so they had been forecasting a surplus of about 500 gigawatts in 2030. 40 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:20,000 And they revised that figure to be a deficit of 3,500 gigawatts by 2030. 41 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,000 And so the call to power went out earlier this year. 42 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:34,000 And they are looking for projects that would come on stream with commercial operation dates by 2028, 2031. 43 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,000 Wow, that's pretty quick. Power projects, isn't it? 44 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,000 Yeah, it is. 45 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,000 Wow, points to the need. 46 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:48,000 And if they all come on stream, that'll add about 5% to British Columbia's current power supply. 47 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:56,000 And BC hydro estimates that this call will lead to total public and private capital investments of approximately $40 billion. 48 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,000 So their focus is on big projects. 49 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,000 Yes. 50 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,000 And we talked about the urgency of the request. 51 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:15,000 But the other unique aspect of the call for power was the requirement that all proposals include indigenous ownership in the proponent making the proposal. 52 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,000 Is that the first time that's happened in a... 53 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:19,000 It is, yes. 54 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:28,000 In 2008, which was the last time British Columbia called for power, there was only a passing reference to indigenous consultations. 55 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,000 But this time the call to power was quite explicit. 56 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:42,000 And it was requiring that indigenous communities that are affected by any of the proposals have at least 25% of the equity in the project. 57 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,000 That's a minimum 25%. 58 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:52,000 And I guess that should make the process of bringing the power on stream quicker, right? 59 00:04:52,000 --> 00:05:02,000 Because the indigenous parties are stakeholders from the get-go, not at the end of it, oh, now we've got to get their approval and they're not bought in and just slows it down. 60 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,000 So actually this should help it come online as quick as they want. 61 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Yeah, absolutely. 62 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:16,000 British Columbia is one of the provinces in Canada who have adopted the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, meaning effectively there's a... 63 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:24,000 not just a consultation requirement, but a consent requirement when it comes to projects that affect indigenous peoples. 64 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:31,000 And what better, in a clear way, to show consent than to have an ownership stake in the project. 65 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:42,000 And so we mentioned 25% as a minimum, proponents will get additional credit in the process if there's a bigger stake than 25% ownership. 66 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,000 And so I know there are some proposals that will have a majority of indigenous... 67 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,000 And a bigger credit. 68 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,000 What do you mean? 69 00:05:50,000 --> 00:06:06,000 Well, when they're assessing these proposals and they did receive 21 proposals for a combined 9,000 gigawatt hours of those 21 proposals from independent power producers throughout BC, 70 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:14,000 about 70% were for wind, new wind projects, 20% for solar, and 10% included biomass. 71 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:22,000 And so many proposals being assessed, contracts are going to be awarded next week, so this is happening right now. 72 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:36,000 And the review process in assessing the different 21 proposals, picking the winners, some of the criteria they will look at are how big a percentage of equity ownership is there from local indigenous communities. 73 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,000 And I guess a couple factors. 74 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:50,000 So BC, if you will correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's one of the provinces who has the most non-treaty territory that's never been resolved. 75 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Yeah, right. 76 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,000 It's all unceded territory. 77 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,000 The province of British Columbia. 78 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,000 One of the last Indicant Federation, right? 79 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:06,000 So there's a good way to start solving those issues is, okay, we know we have to solve this, so you're going to get a stake in it. 80 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And that will help hopefully come along with that. 81 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:16,000 I guess the other interesting thing is the amount of wind power, the hydro opportunities in BC, I guess most of the dams have been built. 82 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,000 I think everybody thinks that there won't be any more dams built. 83 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:27,000 There is one site C, which has been under construction for many years and proposed for many years in the northeast British Columbia. 84 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,000 That is actually completed and expected to come on line next year. 85 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,000 I think it's, the dam is complete. 86 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,000 The reservoir is filled. 87 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,000 It's filled at the moment. 88 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,000 And power starting next year, I believe. 89 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:49,000 And once it's up and running, there's about 4,500 gigawatt hours of power from that one dam. 90 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:55,000 It'll be the fourth largest, I think, producer of hydro power in British Columbia. 91 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,000 But I think that most people figure that is probably the last one. 92 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:06,000 And so when you're talking about clean energy projects, there's lots of scope for more wind. 93 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:14,000 I guess for that site C dam, if I remember correctly, it's down from another dam, the WAC Bennett Dam. 94 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:23,000 And he's a former Premier of British Columbia, but since most people think Canadians are very conservative, his nickname was actually Wacky Bill Bennett. 95 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:28,000 And the Social Credit Party of British Columbia. 96 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:38,000 So Western Canada has always had these populace come through, which is different where Canada was formed in Upper and Lower Canada, 97 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,000 between New France and Ontario and Quebec. 98 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,000 And it's like in Alberta, there's some of this as well. 99 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,000 So Canadians are not as conservative as one thinks. 100 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,000 If you have a Premier named Wacky Bill Bennett. 101 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,000 Yeah, I know. And politics in British Columbia is interesting, left and right. 102 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,000 Yes. 103 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,000 So there was also election in BC. 104 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:04,000 That's right. Just in the last few weeks in the ruling New Democratic Party, Socialist Party just hung on. 105 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,000 They had a large majority going into the election. 106 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,000 They want a very, very slim majority by one or two seats. 107 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:25,000 And so Indigenous peoples were watching that election closely because the opposition party conservatives were proposing to rescind the UN Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Indigenous Peoples, 108 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,000 promising to replace that with something even better. 109 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,000 Something better. 110 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:42,000 I mean, it's crazy what comes up in politics because I think Canada is well on its road to resolving this issue by including Charter of Rights and Freedoms, 111 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,000 the rights of the Indigenous peoples, the recognition of their treaty rights. 112 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:52,000 And also when the federal government signed up for UNDRIV, it set a standard across the country. 113 00:09:52,000 --> 00:10:00,000 And so, yeah, we would have been back to court cases and delays to projects and fights. 114 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:10,000 But government continues in place in British Columbia and people expect as regards Indigenous communities and energy policy that it's business as usual. 115 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:19,000 I always thought the NDP was like a European Social Democratic Party, but obviously you're very North American and they're socialists. 116 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,000 Right? Is that it? 117 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,000 I guess that's perspective from here. 118 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:34,000 Everything in North America is right of here, but everything in Canada is actually left of what's in America. 119 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:42,000 So when they say somebody's left of center networks, use the term socialist, they usually think of Canada in America. 120 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,000 But it's not. 121 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:52,000 But there's a lot of people who are right of center too, you know, if you look what goes on the Prairie Provinces or Alberta, you know, in particular. 122 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:59,000 Okay, so through the election, BC Hydro, and we're talking about the amount of clean energy in the wind power projects. 123 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:05,000 Where are the wind power projects going in BC along the coast? Do you know? 124 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,000 I don't know, to be honest, the valleys. 125 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,000 Yeah, of course, right with the Rockies. 126 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,000 But I don't know specifically where. 127 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:20,000 I know of the 21 proposals that it is, they are spread quite broadly across the province. 128 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:25,000 And solar energy in BC? BC always reminds me a bit of England. 129 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:31,000 Right? Where does the sun shine all the time in BC? Somebody's figured it out. 130 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:40,000 Yeah, I'd be surprised in some places, British Columbia, in the interior, for example, Eret and quite sunny conditions. 131 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,000 Right, can be future retirement destinations. 132 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,000 Absolutely. 133 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:57,000 And you'll have power, clean power too. What a better place to end up than a place like that in BC interior, sunny, close to the coast, close to the Rockies. 134 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,000 Can't ask for a better life. That's why everyone goes to BC, right? 135 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,000 That's right. 136 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,000 Very nice lifestyle. 137 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,000 And natural resources. 138 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,000 Okay, super. 139 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,000 And any other issues coming out from Eret trip to BC? 140 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:32,000 No, I guess just to highlight again as part of these equity packages in the hydro call, there is a standard financing package offered by Canada's infrastructure bank, government owned bank that has a pretty standard package now of loan guarantees, 141 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:39,000 which help finance that equity stake that indigenous communities will be required to have in those projects. 142 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:52,000 So government loans at the federal level, Canada infrastructure banks federal institution and provinces have similar loan guarantee packages. 143 00:12:52,000 --> 00:13:11,000 There are some grants private sector is doing some interesting things helping to finance these equity stakes, not just for power, but in other situations too, talking to one of the Canadian mining companies who are in London this week for the resourcing tomorrow conference. 144 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,000 That's actually tomorrow, I think. 145 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,000 It's on now this week. 146 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,000 Oh, so it's not it's resourcing tomorrow, but it's yesterday as well as tomorrow. 147 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:31,000 And today, right, resourcing for it's the old mines and money conference, which has been going in London for many years and attracts mining companies from around the world. 148 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:39,000 Why did they give up on such a good name like mines and money that kind of put it all together right now today and tomorrow, you know, no way, mines and money. 149 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,000 And it's part of an image rebrand. 150 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,000 Yes, not just digging up, digging up the ground, right. 151 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,000 But that's what it is. 152 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:58,000 I mean, and a lot of people don't appreciate, you know, if you actually fly over where resources are being extracted, it isn't a pretty sight. 153 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,000 But, you know, this has been man on planet Earth since the beginning. 154 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,000 It's all necessary. 155 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,000 Yes. 156 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:11,000 I mean, these green projects all require minerals and they have to come out of the ground. 157 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:25,000 Somehow mining companies are getting much better at using clean power to get those minerals out of the ground, but you have to get them out and use them to generate the clean clean power and other products that we all use. 158 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:40,000 And what about so couple issues on that is that financing capacity that you just alluded to, is it sufficient or is there concern that the indigenous peoples are kind of coming up to barriers in terms of what they're doing. 159 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,000 In terms of what they can get to invest in opportunities that they have, they're there. 160 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:52,000 But it's, do they have enough financial resources yet to be able to do that and who's going to fill that gap? 161 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,000 Not at the moment. 162 00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:04,000 There is a concern that the needs are great and there's only so much capacity for funding in Canada, whether it's government or private sector. 163 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:15,000 And when you look at the projects that are in the pipeline and all requiring indigenous equity, then these are pretty daunting numbers. 164 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:21,000 And so that's why some are looking outside of Canada for that investment. 165 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,000 Yes. 166 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,000 That's one of the reasons for the summit here in London. 167 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,000 Absolutely. 168 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Absolutely. 169 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,000 And there are different novel ways that people are coming up to find those funds to finance the equity. 170 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Again, talking to one of these Canadian miners, there's a structure in Canada that's used called Flow Through Shares. 171 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,000 Yes. 172 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:51,000 And Flow Through Shares effectively allow the investor to use the deductions that the company would otherwise be able to use. 173 00:15:51,000 --> 00:16:02,000 So a typical example is an exploration company spending a lot of money to explore but years away from actually generating revenue and income. 174 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:08,000 And so in those early years, being able to deduct expenses doesn't really help the company. 175 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,000 Correct. 176 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,000 Canadian system. 177 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,000 No, that's right. 178 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:28,000 Canadian system allows certain companies to issue what are called these Flow Through Shares. And so if I invest in my Flow Through Shares from your company, I can use the deductions against my tax bill that that company would otherwise be able to use. 179 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,000 Yes. 180 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:36,000 And so you have Flow Through Shares, very popular for many years in Canada. 181 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:42,000 I think they were attached with MERS, multiple urban residential developments. 182 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,000 Probably they can use them in many circumstances. 183 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,000 Yes, it's very popular in Canada actually. 184 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,000 Yes. 185 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:53,000 And then one twist on the Flow Through Shares structure is something called charitable Flow Through Structures. 186 00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:13,000 And that's where investors who want to donate their shares to a charity are able to buy the Flow Through Shares from the company, use the deductions for tax purposes, and then sell those shares on or donate them to a charity. 187 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:23,000 And so the charity can hold the shares. It doesn't get to use the deductions. They can only be used once, but it's a charity. It doesn't need the deductions. 188 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:33,000 And so a common structure is the investor buys from the company, the Flow Through Shares, donates those shares to a charity. 189 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:45,000 The charity then has a buyer, usually an institutional buyer, who again doesn't get to use the deductions, but is able to pay cash to that charity. 190 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:55,000 And it wants the shares. The charity gets its cash. The original investor has put money into the company. It uses the tax deductions. 191 00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:04,000 And there's a multiplier effect on what we've been able to do with a similar amount of money and donate. 192 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,000 It becomes quite attractive. 193 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:15,000 Everybody wins with that one. Who doesn't win? I guess the Canadian taxpayer picks up the bill for that one. 194 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:25,000 Well, they're trying to encourage exploration in allowing somebody to use those deductions that other businesses would otherwise be allowed to use. 195 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,000 So it's an incentive to get investment in. 196 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,000 It's an innovation. 197 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,000 Encourage exploration. 198 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:38,000 Absolutely. And when you look at all the parties who get to benefit from that, you've got a lot of important stakeholders. 199 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:55,000 And so in some cases, you could have that charity be the indigenous community, local indigenous community, and you could have an investor invest in the company, then donate those shares to the indigenous community, who could either hold the shares because they want their equity, 200 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,000 Yes. 201 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,000 Or they could sell them to an institution and just take the cash at that point. 202 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:09,000 I'm sure that's going to be used quite a bit with a lot of these projects since it's another way for the indigenous communities to get access. 203 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:17,000 Just to again, another example of some pretty innovative ideas and all indigenous communities to get their equity stakes. 204 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:22,000 Great. And you also, so when you finish up, I think you were in Alberta as well. 205 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,000 Went to Calgary, yeah, cold, snowy Calgary. 206 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Yes. 207 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,000 About like middle of February. 208 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:37,000 Well, when you're in the prairies, you know, it comes in October and leaves in April or May, right? Kind of consistent. 209 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,000 What's it like today? What do you mean? What's it like? It's cold. 210 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:49,000 And you've always had a plug in your car on the prairies. And it's not because they're all electric, but if you don't plug in your engine block, you know, the oil will freeze in the other cracked engine block. 211 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:54,000 So people have been plugging in their vehicles for years on the prairies. It's nothing new. 212 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,000 So these guys from California come in. Oh, you get to plug in your car. 213 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,000 So, and was there any indigenous issues? 214 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:16,000 Well, I was catching up with some contacts and then just on my own time took a drive out to Susina, the first nation that borders Calgary on the southwestern edge of Calgary. 215 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:29,000 And they've just opened a new ring road highway around Calgary that goes through Susina territory. So they were compensated for that, allowing that road to be built. 216 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,000 And they're doing some really interesting things about that. 217 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000 So then the lawyers show up. 218 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:41,000 Well, they're trying to develop the land in there so well situated right on the edge of Calgary. 219 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:48,000 There's a massive property development going on there with shopping residential plan. 220 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,000 Who's behind that development? 221 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,000 Number of parties. 222 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,000 It's Tutina nation. 223 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,000 Yes, first nation. 224 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:04,000 Okay. And of course, for those of our listeners and viewers who don't know, actually the largest stampede in the world is held every year in Calgary. 225 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,000 World famous Calgary stampede all over North America. 226 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,000 All the Cowboys go to Calgary in the summer. That is the biggest. 227 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Now we have a new president elect in the US, Trump. 228 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:19,000 I don't know if he's heard that the biggest and greatest rodeo is in Calgary. 229 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Maybe they'll invite him. 230 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,000 Okay. Excellent. 231 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:37,000 Yeah, there's a lot of affinity between the Albertans and the new government to be in the United States because there are all kinds of pipelines and the oil and gas and other fuels that the US needs. 232 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:43,000 It's a natural market straight down from into the US market. 233 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:56,000 Yes. So this might raise the Keystone pipeline again, which was approved in President Trump's first term and then Biden shut it down again. Environmental concerns. 234 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:12,000 And that actually, without that pipeline, Canadian oil that goes down is actually cheaper than what's the refinery up down the States anyway, where it goes in it because there's restrictions and how much can go in. 235 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,000 You can't get the best price for it because there's a lack of capacity to get the oil down. 236 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,000 So the prices held back. 237 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:26,000 But with that pipeline, you know, that might come alive again. 238 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:37,000 It could. And I don't pretend to know the politics and the issues of Keystone, but Canada, a new route to the West Coast and Asian markets last year, the Trans Mountain pipeline. 239 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,000 Yes. 240 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,000 It's now open. 241 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:45,000 And so that has been a big boost to capacity that Canada can export. 242 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,000 Yes. 243 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:52,000 And get that product to market closer to the global global prices for the product. 244 00:22:52,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Yes, which is important because obviously the US and Canada are very close trading nations and a lot of commas go down to the US market and oil in particular. 245 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:12,000 But this gives Canada with the West Coast pipeline now some negotiating leverage because the pipelines don't only go south anymore, right? 246 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:18,000 They can go across to Asia, which continues to grow and has huge demands. 247 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:28,000 And again, Canadian oil reliable supplier was like when the Germans came looking for natural gas, they first came to Canada because they thought perfect country to supply us with. 248 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,000 That decision wasn't made at the time. 249 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:41,000 But now with this new pipeline, it gives Canada opportunity to participate in global energy markets and have alternative sources for the products, which is good for any commodities coming out of Canada. 250 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,000 Right? 251 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,000 Reinforcing the strategic importance of Canada. 252 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,000 I think it's a good news story for Canada shows big projects can get done. 253 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,000 Yes. 254 00:23:52,000 --> 00:24:00,000 And the next step is for the government, the federal government who had stepped in and bought the pipeline. 255 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,000 At one point it's now for them to sell it to the private sector. 256 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:19,000 And there's an expectation that indigenous communities in British Columbia, all along the pipeline will be buyers and bidding for that pipeline or at least a big piece of the pipeline. 257 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,000 Yes. 258 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:28,000 And one of our chiefs who came to last summit, Chief David Jimmy, is one of those people that they have been talking to or he's been talking to. 259 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,000 Yeah. 260 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:40,000 He's a teacher and alliance of indigenous communities, I forget how many they are, but they are one of the, they will be one of the bidders for that pipeline when it comes up for sale. 261 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,000 Okay. 262 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,000 So very productive visit. 263 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:48,000 And now that we're making our way from the west, we've talked a little bit about what's going on in Washington. 264 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,000 So of course we have to talk what's going on in Ottawa. 265 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000 Right? 266 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,000 Mm-hmm. 267 00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:00,000 And of course in Canada there's something called the IDIB, the Indigenous, I think it's the IDIB. 268 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,000 It's a list of indigenous owned businesses. 269 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,000 Right? 270 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:15,000 And if you get on this list, the Canadian government, the federal government has said we're going to give, I think it's 5% of total federal government contracts for indigenous businesses. 271 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,000 Yeah. 272 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:31,000 The indigenous people represent in Canada about 5% of the population and so federal government has targeted, the goal is that 5% of their projects and their spend should be directed towards the indigenous economy. 273 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,000 Right. 274 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:42,000 And a few weeks ago when we were talking on the podcast, you know, it was in the news that there was all these IT companies set up in the suburbs of Ottawa who claim to be indigenous but weren't. 275 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:54,000 And then it was announced in Parliament last week or the week before by the Indigenous Service Canada Minister, Patty Haji, that 1,100 companies have been removed from the list. 276 00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:01,000 There's still approximately 3,000 but nearly 20% have been removed because they didn't really qualify. 277 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,000 Yeah. 278 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,000 I mean this is... 279 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,000 It's a big, big... 280 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,000 What a mess. 281 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,000 It's a big issue. 282 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,000 It's a big issue. 283 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,000 It's been controversial. 284 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,000 Some high-profile contracts awarded to some questionable companies. 285 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:18,000 But like a lot of programs where there's money to be made, you will find people trying to game the system. 286 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:27,000 And so, yeah, the number of companies claiming indigenous ownership that really weren't indigenous owned. 287 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:34,000 And so groups like Canadian Council on Indigenous Business is setting some criteria and some standards. 288 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,000 And so is the National Aboriginal Capital Corporation. 289 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,000 Okay. 290 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:51,000 So both groups trying to set a standard for what should be considered a proper indigenous owned business eligible for things like government procurement contracts. 291 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,000 Yes. 292 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,000 So this inability to count or identify reminds me a bit of the border issues in the United Kingdom. 293 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,000 We don't know how many people come in or out. 294 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,000 And I think Canada has similar challenges. 295 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:08,000 But I'm sure as you are indigenous, Rob, when you hear something set up like this and they restricted you. 296 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:15,000 Or restricted your rights even and your ancestors rights about where you could live, what you could do, who you could meet. 297 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,000 They seem to have tight control of that. 298 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,000 And then something like this comes up. 299 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,000 They lose control of the purse strings. 300 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,000 It, you know, for me it's. 301 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:35,000 There was there was there was lax oversight and then apparently it was widely known within the procurement community that there were a lot of companies gaming that system. 302 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,000 But hopefully the light shone on it in recent times will. 303 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,000 Yes. 304 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,000 Will reduce that. 305 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,000 Yes. 306 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:53,000 But that's where that's where everybody gets frustrated in every country with their government because they think their governments are spending money effectively. 307 00:27:53,000 --> 00:28:00,000 And when examples like this come out and go on for a period of time, that's when people start to lose faith in the system. 308 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,000 So it's really important that's got that's got addressed. 309 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,000 Okay. 310 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,000 Well, that's good. 311 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,000 That's happening. 312 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:17,000 And the conference board of Canada also came out with a recent report talking about indigenous trust about investing and adapting and indigenous trust in Canada. 313 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:25,000 Imagine estimate 20 billion in assets impacting over 300 First Nations in your committee. 314 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:31,000 And 20 billion is the current number. 315 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:42,000 And that number sounds low to me because there are a number of settlements in different areas, child welfare settlement of the first part of that case. 316 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,000 I think the settlement was worth 23 billion dollars. 317 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:52,000 There are settlements for treaty violations that run into the billions of dollars. 318 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,000 And so all of this money has to be managed. 319 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,000 Yes. 320 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,000 And most often it's a trust that's set up to manage these settlement funds. 321 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,000 So I think that reinforced one, okay, where is all that other money? 322 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,000 Because the conference board of Canada is pretty good at getting their facts, right? 323 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:16,000 But I think what it also demonstrates is the indigenous peoples are just not looking for financing. 324 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,000 They have assets. 325 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:26,000 Sometimes it's about how can they actually leverage them because of Indian Act and historic legislation that prevent them from doing so. 326 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:35,000 But that is only going to grow over time when you talk about flow through and revenue streams from commodities and, you know, just what we're talking about in BC. 327 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:41,000 They are managing and today and will continue and these are going to grow as assets. 328 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:47,000 It's almost like a sovereign wealth fund or perhaps more appropriate for Canada compared to the Canadian pension plan. 329 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,000 CPP, everybody knows about it or the Ontario teachers. 330 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:58,000 You know, these become important vehicles and, you know, you have to go talk to them because you want to manage the money. 331 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:06,000 So this, the importance for the indigenous peoples of Canada, they have assets and over time they're going to get complete control of them. 332 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:12,000 And they are looking for who are the partners who've worked with us over time, right? 333 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:17,000 And, you know, the thinking is always about seven generations, right? 334 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,000 Who's going to be with us? 335 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,000 They don't want a quick deal today. 336 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,000 They want to know who's going to work with us over time. 337 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:30,000 So although working with indigenous peoples because they have this philosophy, which of course all of us would like that somebody's thinking, 338 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,000 what's the future of our community and our lands? 339 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,000 You know, it reinforces you have to work at building relationships. 340 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,000 As you do in any successful business, it's not just a single transaction. 341 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,000 There's a long memory. 342 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,000 So that holds a lot of opportunity. 343 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:51,000 Absolutely long term engagement, early engagement as necessary. 344 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:57,000 This DC power call for power was made in April of this year. 345 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,000 Bids were due by September. 346 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,000 Contracts awarded any day now. 347 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,000 That's not a lot of time to establish a relationship. 348 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,000 I was like giving my partner. 349 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:19,000 And finalize the deal on that. You need to be in the market getting to know some of these groups so that you can respond to these opportunities. 350 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:27,000 True. And I think that's just one example because all the infrastructure projects, which Canada, like many western countries, 351 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,000 has to invest in this infrastructure gain. 352 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:37,000 The life of these legacy assets is coming to the end of their functional life and they need to be replaced. 353 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:45,000 And when these projects are announced, this is, you know, BC hydro, all of a sudden, hey, we've got constraints, we've got our forecast. 354 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:53,000 So when something like this comes along, it then becomes an example as you're saying, Rob, if you don't have the relationships, it's tough to build it right away. 355 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,000 And they're going to look on you. Oh, you're only here because you need that. 356 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:11,000 So if you have long term interests in infrastructure, commodity, energy projects, you need to be developing these relationships with the Indigenous peoples now. 357 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,000 So when the call comes in for something, you're already halfway there. 358 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,000 And we learned that from an earlier conversation on Cedar LNG, right? 359 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,000 They've worked with a lot of people over time and knew exactly what they're looking for. 360 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,000 And Pemina, you know, delivered that for them. So excellent. 361 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,000 Any other news? 362 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,000 That's maybe enough for now. I can't think of anything else. Mark. 363 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,000 How's your hockey team? 364 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,000 The Leafs are doing okay. 365 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,000 Yeah, well, it doesn't count until the playoffs though, right? 366 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,000 Yeah, so that's why I'm not paying too close attention. 367 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,000 Yes, none of us are waiting for the playoffs. Okay. There we go. 368 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000 So Rob, great to see you again. 369 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,000 Thanks, Mark. 370 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,000 It's super to be here in McCarthy's offices in the City of London, right? 371 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,000 Looking across at the city buildings. 372 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,000 So look forward to speaking with you soon. 373 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,000 Absolutely. 374 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,000 Great. Have a good week. 375 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,000 You too, Mark. 376 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:20,000 Today's discussion delved into Indigenous economic strategies and investment opportunities, with a special focus on BC's hydro call for power and its mandate inclusion of Indigenous communities. 377 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,000 We also explored the report from the Conference Board of Canada on trust and investing. 378 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:33,000 These conversations are essential in understanding how economic development with Indigenous communities are shaping Canada's investment landscape. 379 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:43,000 Stay with us next time for even more discussions on impactful Indigenous leadership and economic opportunities shaping Canada's economic future. 380 00:33:43,000 --> 00:34:01,000 Mark McNacca, thank you for listening.