Welcome to Drumbeats, the must listen podcast for investors interested in Indigenous investment
in Canada. Born from the Canadian Indigenous Investment Summit, the show focuses on the nexus
of Indigenous economic strategies and investment opportunities. I am Mark McNacca and my co-host
Robert Brent today discuss the proposed launch of the Centre for Indigenous Corporate Partnerships,
an initiative led by Boston Consulting Group based on the work over the years in Australia.
Join us as we explore how these crucial conversations impact economic development
within Indigenous communities in Canada and beyond. Hello Rob, great to see you today and I
guess it's good morning because you're on the other side of the pond. That's right, hi Mark,
Sego, I'm back in Toronto spending more and more of my time here at Sames. Great, you went for the
sun did you because we've had you know two weeks of no sun and was reported it's you know 50% less
than we had last October, November. Yeah, no I've found it here and amongst the Swifties because
that's the biggest news in Toronto at the moment. Oh the concert's coming up is it? She's in town.
Oh okay here I thought you're working. Are you going?
No, no unfortunately I don't have tickets for this one. Okay, okay well anyway I guess it's
great to be back there and while we share a hockey team I think we're both Toronto Maple Leaf fans.
Absolutely. You know they've won a few games Winnipeg's been burning up the league but as we
know you know regular season doesn't count if you're a Maple Leaf fan right? Definitely does not.
Good so when you've been over in Toronto I understand you've been at a couple conferences
or events talking about the Indigenous world and the investment. Yeah absolutely I was at the
energy roundtable conference yesterday an annual gathering in Toronto senior energy
executives and the stakeholders saw it was a very good conference. Yes and that was primarily
Canadian energy producers or North American. Yeah I know most of the focus is on Canada for sure.
Okay and what were some of the issues coming up related? Well I was really enjoyed Chief
Crystal Smith's presentation and discussion. You remember we spoke to her a couple months ago.
Yes leader L.G. Fantastic. Yeah and so she was providing an update work is
proceeding at pace on the Cedar LNG project. Okay good and so still a lot of good things
happening out in British Columbia. Good and more people seeing that as an example of how to make
progress. Yeah and you saw that on a number of the panels and then the very senior executive CEO level
types and all talking about the importance of their Indigenous partnerships and a recognition
that those sorts of partnerships are the way forward in talking about the benefits that come
from those partnerships and statements about future intent and the fact that a lot of these
energy producers, distributors and other stakeholders are not going back to the days when
big projects could get done without Indigenous involvement. Yes and I'm sure it was a subject
of discussion at the conference with President-elect Trump and a focus on unburdening the oil and gas
industry with regulations in the US. Were there any implications you know perceived for the role of
Indigenous, the Indigenous peoples in Canadian oil and gas industry and how that's going to
affect with things south of the border because we basically almost have a common market in
terms of energy in North America? Yeah and there was some suggestion that there have been discussions
already with President-elect Trump's team, his transition team and some thoughts on what their
energy policy might be. Some suggestions that they would like to see a North American energy
policy and a superpower created with at least the US and Canada when you add up production
in oil and gas between the two countries it accounts for something like 25% of I think it's
global production and so if the two countries ever worked together with a common policy that would
be a really influential force in the global market. Well given that oil and gas was included in the
free trade originally between Canada, US and NAFTA and it was obviously there would be no
differentiation in pricing into markets what are some of the other barriers that remain between
the two countries? I wasn't familiar there actually was that many. It's not so much barriers as it is
differences in approaches and differences in regulation and policy and if they could coordinate
and there's some suggestion that the Trump administration is or will put some pressure
on Canada to come alongside and join follow-its plan to deregulate make approvals processes easier
to try to streamline permitting processes and if Canada and US worked in lock steps then that would
create a North American superpower and energy. Yes. Or to rival some of the other energy blocks.
Well I don't think anyone doesn't expect pressure to be applied if that's where President-elect
Trump wants to go and you know they are Canada's biggest trading partner and you know we always talk
about our American cousins and because we share a lot and we share the continent and the resources
cross borders right it's hard to tell where the border stops sometimes unless you're flying over
a plane and you've seen somebody's cut down a bunch of trees and that tells you where the border is
but given that objective from President Trump or what we think is an objective in terms of this
energy superpower in North America what is the impact the the indigenous peoples are
seeing from that because by the very nature of an economic reconciliation in Canada
they have a seat at the table now. Yeah so how that plays out I mean everybody
bemoans the lengthy approvals processes and permitting processes and everybody would like
to streamline it and there are lots of attempts to streamline the fact is in Canada these projects
will not get built developed without indigenous consent I think it's fair to say now it's not
just without some consultation I think it's consent and and material involvement and sometimes that
takes time to get the indigenous communities outside. Correct and how about some of the indigenous
community south of the border do they see what is happening in Canada as something they can
learn from and progress with in the US I think that this has to be one of the key policy challenges
to have an energy superpower in North America because it's now the law of the land in Canada.
It is the courts in Canada have backed up indigenous claims and indigenous rights in recent years
the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples gradually being adopted across Canada
and indigenous communities across Canada standing up and saying we're not going to allow development
in the round near through our territories without a meaningful say in the States I don't think they
have a strong court case lot to to stand behind and we are seeing instances of those US tribes calling
us in Canada and and wanting to understand more about the way we're doing things now and wanting
to take more of their material involvement and equity stake in some of these and some of their
developments in a way that they haven't historically. Interesting well I guess it's a space that we'll
be able to we'll be watching very closely as President-elect takes office in January and what
will be the impact on energy and all kinds of other areas and you know given that Canada is
very much a commodity driven economy that's obviously we're going to be very focused on that
as we go into 2025. I also understand you're at another conference at BCG Boston Consulting Groups
or it was it was a meeting could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah that was a workshop
BCG to their credit has started an initiative in in Canada based on something they have rolled out
in Australia over the last 20 years and that is initiative that involves corporate non-indigenous
corporates we're open this case corporate Canada getting together and supporting by providing pro-bono
services to indigenous communities across Canada to help with economic and social initiatives
and so BCG and a couple of others Jay Wright from Arterra Wines now retired or rewired as he says
Chief Clarence Louie of the Soryus Band in British Columbia and Brad Baker at BCG founded something
they're calling the Center for Indigenous Corporate Partnerships and like I say it's modeled on
something that BCG have done in Australia for over 20 years and over that time helped more than
well it's into the hundreds of indigenous communities in Australia and garners some support
in corporate Canada to establish this center and it was a really interesting gathering they had
maybe 40 people together bankers indigenous leaders yes and others interested professional
service advisor of these folks and some big names involved from the banks first nations
and so I was a part of that because I am interested in that myself and we'll see if McCarthy Tatrell
will get involved yes and so just coming back I think it's called the Center for Indigenous
Corporate Partnerships CICP that's right and in terms of makeup it's interesting
you were describing it was there and like yourself an indigenous person represent the corporate world
or coming from that world is that what you found for most of the corporate partners
that more and more the the represents who are working with the indigenous communities are
of indigenous background themselves uh no we're still a minority but organizations in corporate
Canada they're all finding that this issue is rising in importance they're dealing more and more
with indigenous communities across Canada they're looking to hire a lot of this is in response to
the truth and reconciliation commissions call to action especially for corporate Canada and sadly
in the last week we lost Senator Murray who was the chair of the truth and reconciliation
yes a great loss for all of Canada and really took Canada on that journey of you know leading
through the truth and reconciliation process which was initially modeled on South Africa's approach
to apartheid and he is famous throughout Canada was very well respected and was a very difficult
time and process but he was able to bring us everyone together united through that process so
that is obviously very very sad and it was it was very sad I mean for I got to meet him once
I heard him speak a couple of times soft spoken matter of fact straight talker but when he spoke
people listened and had he had an integrity about him and almost in the way that Nelson
Mann delated when he spoke people listened and Murray Sinclair was a lawyer and then a judge
and the senator somebody I was looked up to and respected and so there were tributes across the
country on his passing which was way too soon but his work lives on and the path that he and the
commission laid out and those calls to action live on and this new center is in response to to
that call to action to corporate Canada to get involved and to do something yes and his firm
was actually Cochran Sinclair out of Manitoba if I recall correctly is that yes I mean he did so
many things he was a senior judge for many years and then Canadian Senate practicing lawyer involved
in notable decisions and cases and throughout throughout his career yes so a great loss to
Canada and I think indigenous peoples around the world because the influence of the truth and
reconciliation committee really set a standard in terms of the approach yeah I think his his the
work of that commission and the work that he and others continued to do after the commission reported
to bring to light the issue of some of the past injustices that still have an effect today and
recommendations on how we can do better going forward a lot of that work was was very influential
and without it I'm not sure we were seeing some of the initiatives we've seen in this space in
recent years okay so a great name that will resonate through history so Rob coming back to
CSIP and sounds like a great gathering of different individuals there and you mentioned earlier you
know BCG has done this in Australia it's kind of actually interesting because I think Canada is
in terms of now that it's it's the law of land is moving ahead but these are great learnings
brought over from Australia where indigenous rights have been an ongoing issue as well so it's good
to see that practices those best practices coming across and absolutely was an interesting group
of people in the room and in different companies and firms represented you had everything from
the banks I mentioned RBC and Scotiabank were represented they had Mark the big marketing
agency the Asian group Denso had some great Canadian retail names like Canada Goose there you go and
you know we had the banks we had that and we had the Smith School of Business at Queens University
so that's the business school I went to so that's great to see them taking the leading role and
Queens always had a reputation for you know feeding Ottawa with thinkers on policy issues
so that's really good to see as well yeah they're one of the early founders of this group helping BCG
with the concept so they are fully behind it and their entrepreneurship school in particular
is very excited about this initiative so well done to Queens excellent and so coming back to
who are the indigenous participants that were there the community some nations that were
represented include the Hiawatha nation which is near Toronto just east of Toronto constant
lake First Nation northern Ontario First Nation and also the Cree from northern Quebec
two of their nations from northern Quebec were represented we also had Cedar Leaf capital in
the room oh the new the new firm that was just listed on the TSE well they just got regulatory
approval they're not a listed company but they are a now a regulated investment dealer they're
indigenous owned yes and majority indigenous owned by three different First Nations groups
got the Squamish from British Columbia English River First Nation from Saskatchewan excellent
and Rama from Ontario those three First Nations through their development corporations are eco
partners and then Scotiabank has a 30 interest and so Scotiabank has helped Cedar Leaf get off
the ground they're going to be an advisory service initially in capital markets focused on that
capital markets yes and their CEO Clint Davis who is an in-eck from Labrador mm-hmm wow he was there
and a couple of his colleagues from Cedar Leaf were there as well I hope we can get Clint
and maybe some of the some of their shareholders on in the future podcast yes I'm sure that's great
and what do they see as the priorities for CICP in terms of over the next year as they try and
formulate this project this initiative the initial priority is to get corporate Canada
supportive and involved and so up till now it's been a small group of founders I mentioned from
BCG Osler's Canadian law firm also early involvement and so now they're trying to spread the word
and create a structure to facilitate the pro bono work different participants will be able to provide
okay we as to oversee that pro bono work to work with communities look at what to those
indigenous communities need and then provide from the network within the CICP the services that make
most sense so I think they've had one pilot completed at Constance Lake First Nation and
there's another active pilot at the moment that Hiawatha First Nation yeah in both of those
so Hiawatha and Constance Lake both in Ontario and both communities that needed some support
developing strategic plans and and had some other issues needed the support and the expertise
that CICP members could provide and so BCG and and some others provided some personnel
who spent time in the communities helping develop and deliver some programs in economic
development and and in health care great so sounds like a you know a strong initiative and I guess
they're focusing on building these partnerships in a way to channel the expertise of the corporate
partners in support of indigenous schools what exactly are the benefits that they see as the
value for communities coming from this for the communities themselves yes well there's a lack of
capacity in those in a lot of communities not not everyone but so the communities are lacking in
personnel who have this expertise in a lot of the cases they don't have the resources to buy
that expertise yet and so this partnership with CICP provides that people provides the expertise
provides a place where local indigenous people can learn alongside the experts from Canada so
there's a bit of talent development that's a part of this and then execution to get to get some
things done okay and you know how is this perceived by those indigenous communities and nations who
are in that group talking about because on one hand this is corporate Canada who you know hasn't
had a great relationship with the indigenous peoples over time once again saying oh we'll come
and help you as opposed to develop their own capabilities and capacity and you you're in
both places Rob you're a proud Mohawk and you're sitting in one of the biggest law firms in Canada
with McCarthy Tetral so is this seen as a positive initiative or are they concerned
that they're not there as equal partners yeah so it's a delicate and sensitive
issue first of all the CICP would only get involved when asked by a community to come in
help so nobody is obligated to work with CICP and when CICP members do get involved they're
going it's going to have to be done in a very respectful way and the idea is not for experts
to come in and tell the local communities how things have to be done there will be a period
of education for whoever goes into a community and they're gonna have to understand what a bit
about that community and what the needs of that community are and what that community is trying
to achieve and then to work side by side and try to develop solutions together and then to execute
those solutions together it will be done has to be done in a very cooperative respectful way
yes you can see the benefit that the corporate partners would get from that from a you know
a way to take meaningful action on I guess what's referred to as the call to action 92
okay and I can see how within those corporates you know certainly a lot of the younger people
will see this as definitely what should be done to repair relations and strengthen economic
relationship over term over time so you can see a you know a lot of winning points for corporate
Canada for it and we're going to have to have these difficult conversations just as we're
speaking earlier about the truth and reconciliation committee and the work that was done this is an
ongoing process in Canada absolutely from the corporates from their perspective the and from
CICP's perspective the idea is to create long-term partnerships so not coming into a community
telling them how they need to do things and then leaving the ideas and the way it has worked in
Australia is that these are seen as long-term relationships and partnerships and from those
corporates being involved in this way does part of it is being good corporate citizen part of it
is self-interest because as people are starting to appreciate it's the indigenous economy in Canada
that does well then yes we're all going to benefit from that from the corporates perspective it's
also a way to build expertise and learn more about how to work with indigenous communities
we've talked about how this is a new space for a lot of them and a lot of corporations
believing that they're going to have to learn how to deal in a better way with indigenous
communities so this is a learning and talent development tool for the corporates as well
yes I can see it as a from our own perspective from McCarthy's perspective if we get involved I
can see that this is one would be a way to help recruit indigenous lawyers and other staff if
we're involved in this partnership initiative yes I think it'll help us retain some employees who
more and more want to see their organization be involved with some sort of social impact and
wanting to believe that they're making a difference and then it's also just good
what relationship building networking amongst the the corporates themselves who are all involved
in sharing knowledge and know how our firm and I know many others are involved in different
initiatives already providing program services providing funds for different causes including
indigenous causes but what makes CICP different I think is it's it's not just putting money
into a cause it's it's taking our skill set and our knowledge and know how and our relationships
and putting those to use yes in a way that hopefully will benefit these indigenous communities
across Canada yes and I think you know that engagement and learning of how to make this a
success and we come back to the earlier part of the call we're talking about you know energy
superpower in North America that would also empower everybody to you know see this as a platform for
success across the continent you know obviously the world's changing in terms of how America is
going to approach the world and relationships and I think this certainly gives you know Canada a
point of difference to contribute to the conversations in you know in a meaningful way
and I think the development of the talent pool will be really really important so I think that's a
that's a great opportunity yeah if it works it'll raise up some future indigenous leaders it'll
improve the way the corporate Canada works with indigenous communities yeah and that will benefit
the indigenous economy and the Canadian economy as a whole not to mention the social benefits that
come from improved economic conditions one of the speakers yesterday and one of the early
founders of this initiative I mentioned chief Clarence Lilly from the Soilus tribe in British
Columbia yes well known amongst other things for their very very good wines that would commend
their wines to to anybody out there okay but chief Lilly talked about the economic horse
has to pull the social cart yes and through Linton our economic condition facilitate and allow
prove the social conditions as well and allows more social programs and he made the point that
in every indigenous community we should see more people involved in the economic arm of what's
going on in their community and if more people involved in that they're involved in the social
side yes yes as anywhere and I think in in particular in this issue to you know really
make economic reconciliation happen okay so Rob that's really sounds like you're having a very
productive time back in Toronto with those two events and you know different perspectives on
the same issue about economic reconciliation I'm sorry that you won't be able to get to this
Taylor Swift conferences conferences let's call a conference that's how you get it through
I need to go to this conference can this be you know signed off anyway I'm sorry you can't get to
one of the concerts but I'm sure Toronto is chocolate block art the next week but I think those
are you know great insights into how you know economic reconciliation is progressive so you
know it's not a question that if it's happening today you have corporate can line up they know
they have to deliver and be part of the solution to make things happen because no better metaphor
that the trains left the station so if you're not on those opportunities won't present themselves and
you know the indigenous peoples have suffered for long so unless they've got willing partners
they're not going to bring along somebody who's unwilling you just won't get to play the game
and you'll be set on this significant economic opportunity that's really shaping the future
of Canada yeah well said and nice talking to Mark looking forward to speaking to Chief Terry Paul
next week yes that sounds great as well and look forward to catching up when you're back in London
and you can bring some of that wine you were talking about okay my best great thank you everyone
today's discussion highlighted the Centre for Indigenous Corporate Partnerships
a new initiative in Canada inspired by BCG's work over the past decade in Australia
this initiative is aimed at developing connections between indigenous businesses and major corporations
helping bridge economic gaps and create new opportunities see you next time for more impactful
leadership and initiatives shaping Canada's indigenous investment landscape I'm Mark McNacca
thank you for listening