1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,320 Welcome to Drum Beats, where I, Mark McNacca, along with my fellow co-host Robert Brand, 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,280 explore the people and projects shaping Indigenous investment in Canada. 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:14,000 Today, we're joined by the Honorable Lisa Wright, Vice Chair of CIBC Capital Markets. 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,600 She discusses CIBC's commitment to supporting Indigenous communities by expanding access 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,720 to capital and creating inclusive financial pathways. 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:27,400 We'll look at how CIBC prioritizes Indigenous investment, drives economic growth, and strengthens 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,960 Indigenous-led projects across the country. 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:35,640 Lisa, you've been a distinguished leader, held several leadership roles in public and 9 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,120 private service over the years. 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:43,040 Coming out of the summit, what is your vision for the future of investment in Canada, in 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,520 particular as it relates to investment in Indigenous communities? 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,400 Yeah, well, thank you very much. 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,960 And I was delighted to be invited to come over and take part in the conference. 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:59,040 We've been doing a lot of work in Canada about getting the word out that Indigenous peoples 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:04,360 want to be part of a project, an equity partner in some cases, not in all cases. 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,760 It really is up to the community how they want to proceed. 17 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:13,160 But there is an obligation for free, prior, informed consent, and with that comes the 18 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,560 opportunity to have investment. 19 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,800 The tricky part about it, though, is in Canada, it's very difficult for Indigenous communities 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:26,200 to get competitively priced capital in order to be able to participate in a project. 21 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,600 And we've been kind of struggling with that here in Canada for a while. 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,960 Governments have stepped in to provide some loan guarantees, but it really is the capital 23 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:38,840 markets in the financial sector that have to start to play a much bigger role in making 24 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,680 sure that we can flow the funds into these great projects so that they can partner with 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:49,080 other corporations to build the actual infrastructure we need for this country to have long-term 26 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,240 economic growth. 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:57,720 One of the elders in the country always says that all roads for resources go through First 28 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,800 Nations land, and it's very, very true. 29 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:01,600 So we need to get it right. 30 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,280 We need to make sure that the financing is there. 31 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:05,480 So that's Canada. 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,880 And now over here in the UK, why not let the world know what a great opportunity is, what 33 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,160 a stable investment this is, and how Canadians are moving forward in Indigenous communities 34 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,040 are looking for investment, not just from Canadians, but from around the world? 35 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:24,760 Absolutely, because what is happening in Canada is unique in my experience to what is happening 36 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,480 in the rest of the world as regards Indigenous involvement. 37 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,720 And it's really something we should be proud of. 38 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:37,840 We've learned from past mistakes, and I think we're doing things a lot better. 39 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:46,200 How do you see the role of institutions like CIBC in facilitating and supporting sustainable 40 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,680 investment and development in particular in Indigenous communities? 41 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,440 Look, Indigenous communities have been using banks for a long, long time. 42 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,040 There's no question about it. 43 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,160 We have had great customers and clients along the way. 44 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,440 It's the capital markets that are getting involved now. 45 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,600 And as you know, capital markets are a different beast. 46 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:11,280 Probably don't have as much understanding of Indigenous ways, Indigenous cultures, Indigenous 47 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,320 approaches to relationship building. 48 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:19,600 So I think institutionally what we need to do is just take a breath and understand that 49 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:21,000 it's not run of the mill. 50 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,040 It's a very different entity. 51 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,520 And as a result, we have the obligation to serve our client best, and the way to do that 52 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:32,120 is to understand exactly how to make sure that we're interacting, that we're bringing 53 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,480 to the table the information that is needed. 54 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:41,080 And the other part of it too that I've learned is that pace is very different. 55 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,600 Even making takes a little bit longer because it's more consultative and that the planning 56 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:51,640 is for seven generations and that you can't force the timelines and the deadlines. 57 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,160 And it's not necessarily a bad thing. 58 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,760 In our world, we're always rush, rush, rush, trying to get things done quickly. 59 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,960 But you have to meet the cadence of the clients. 60 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:06,120 And I think how financial institutions have to adapt is have that understanding. 61 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:12,400 I think one of the takeaways for us as well is the importance of helping to build capacity 62 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:19,840 so that the ability for Indigenous communities to, in their own space, have the ability to 63 00:04:19,840 --> 00:04:24,120 do due diligence or judge whether or not a project is good, if the deal is something 64 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:25,120 good. 65 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,840 Ideally, we'd like to get to a point where they're doing all that in their own community 66 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:30,000 instead of hiring advisors. 67 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,920 So we have an obligation on helping build capacity as well, which means hiring more people to 68 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,480 work in capital markets. 69 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:44,360 Lisa, can you provide some examples of successful collaborations between the financial sector 70 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,560 and Indigenous communities? 71 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:47,560 You bet. 72 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:54,080 They start slow, but they do come online and more and more projects are happening. 73 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:55,880 So I'll give you an example. 74 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,960 There is projects, mainly these projects, Rob, are in the oil and gas space or in the resources 75 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:01,960 space. 76 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,000 And they're the ones that are coming to fruition right now. 77 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:11,520 And without getting into details, I would say that the examples are, in one instance, 78 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:16,280 where the company will lend the money to the Indigenous community and then they have a portion 79 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:19,040 of equity like 10%, 15% or something. 80 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:25,680 A big difference, I think, a game changer was the Clearwater Fisheries deal that happened 81 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,280 in Nova Scotia in the Maritimes, the land of provinces where I'm from. 82 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:35,280 It was John Risley, who owned Clearwater Foods, decided that he had known Chief Terry Paul 83 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,720 for many, many, many years. 84 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,720 And when John Risley decided he was going to sell, he knew that there was going to be 85 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,880 Indigenous partnership in it. 86 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,880 And the whole deal was pretty much structured around making sure that Indigenous partnership 87 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,080 was going to be part of and a significant part of this operation. 88 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,080 The hard part is finding the money. 89 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,600 So why it was a landmark, it was. 90 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,040 It was a significant raise. 91 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,600 They did partner with another private sector entity in order to do the deal. 92 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:05,840 But they got it done. 93 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:09,800 And it's the kind of thing where the most important part of both the value of Clearwater 94 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,640 Foods is the fishing licenses that they hold. 95 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,640 And the Indigenous peoples hold many, many fishing licenses in the Atlantic provinces 96 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,520 and they have a traditional right to fish the waters. 97 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:24,360 And as a result, putting it all under one roof just made so much sense. 98 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,720 And you know that those fishing license are going to stay intact. 99 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,200 They're not going to be broken up and sold. 100 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,680 And the reason being is that seven generations of planning. 101 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:38,320 And Chief Terry will tell you that right now his people may be fishers and they may be 102 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,480 in the plants and they may be running the plants. 103 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,360 But eventually they're going to be the CEOs and the CFOs. 104 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:44,480 They're going to be on the board. 105 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,400 And it's just, it has to build the capacity throughout the community. 106 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:55,080 And you know, from a social point of view, imagine knowing that you are a big part owner 107 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:01,440 of this massive conglomerate that one day as a kid growing up and member to a Raskozoni, 108 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,800 you can go and work for that incredible, incredible corporation and still be working 109 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,640 with your people and living in your community. 110 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:10,640 It's a wonderful story. 111 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,600 So I look at that as the, I think that was the very first deal where people went, huh, 112 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:16,600 well, that was interesting. 113 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:24,040 Yeah, Lisa, we've seen different models over the years used for financing in indigenous 114 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,400 communities. 115 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:32,520 We've seen things like impact, benefit agreements and jobs promised. 116 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,800 Sometimes royalties paid in Canada. 117 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,040 There are some unique structures being used. 118 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:40,280 You mentioned equity. 119 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:45,840 What do you see as the future is between the different models that are out there? 120 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:51,120 Oh, I think for the communities that choose to want to have an equity stake in a project 121 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,520 that runs through their lands, that the markets are going to respond in the most efficient 122 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:56,800 way that they can. 123 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,800 So I'll give you an example for it. 124 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,720 Mackay, for example, bought some assets from an oil and gas company. 125 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,680 They didn't have to go for a loan guarantee. 126 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,160 They actually went out to the market and they ended up doing a bond and they, they were 127 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,800 able to raise the money for, for other projects. 128 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,520 The sheer size of it means that you may have to go to the First Nations financing authority. 129 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,200 They can help you with that. 130 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:24,960 Or you get a guarantee from either your provincial government or your federal government or the 131 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,160 both of them. 132 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,120 And then you use that to try to go out to investors in the market and see who's interested 133 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,120 that way. 134 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,320 So a lot of these are working their way through the system right now, but I have to tell you, 135 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:41,120 talking to my partners at CIBC, it's not as difficult as you may think. 136 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,440 You know, our goal is to get the best price for the clients and make sure that they're 137 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:51,120 not going to be burdened by too high a cost on the, on the capital, but it seems to be 138 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,120 working. 139 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,960 There's always going to be tweaks that are going to be needed from any federal policy 140 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,640 or provincial policy. 141 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,280 And we're there to help communicate that in the most appropriate way. 142 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:07,920 It does sure seem like the days of an unindigenous business wanting to do a project on indigenous 143 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:14,400 lands, just leasing the land or just promising some jobs or some training is probably not 144 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,440 good enough. 145 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,960 And we at McCarthy-Tatur are seeing different models used. 146 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:21,200 Equity isn't for everybody. 147 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,000 There are risks and challenges. 148 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,360 Debt is sometimes expensive. 149 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,840 But the key now I think is it's a choice and there's a menu of choices available for indigenous 150 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:37,040 communities and the financial markets are there to support those choices. 151 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:38,120 I agree. 152 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:43,720 The other point too, Rob, when you mentioned choice, it's such an important word because 153 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:49,240 sometimes you can learn great things from the community about where your project should 154 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:54,040 be cited or what route it should take and where certain things should happen and how 155 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:55,480 they should happen. 156 00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:01,600 And that is as important, I think, for indigenous communities as is the monetary side of it, 157 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:02,600 the revenue side of it. 158 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,640 They want to make sure the project is done right. 159 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,320 They are the trustees of the land and they take it very seriously. 160 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,960 And as a result, they want to know at the beginning what the project looks like. 161 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,600 And it's not because they're nosy and it's not because they want to get in your business. 162 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,680 They actually can add value and help. 163 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:23,960 And especially in Canada where environmental assessments can take a long time, why wouldn't 164 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,120 you want to start by going and speaking to the indigenous community and just say, this 165 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,560 is what we're thinking of? 166 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:31,560 What do you think? 167 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:33,160 And build the relationship from there. 168 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,760 Like I said, we don't have to rush and do everything immediately. 169 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,680 Hopefully, what will happen is you'll end up having a shorter time because you took 170 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:47,840 the chance or you took the time to do the work upfront as opposed to ending up in court 171 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,320 at the back end of a project. 172 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:51,320 Just on that, Lisa. 173 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:56,800 So Canada is one of the top G7 destinations for FDI. 174 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,160 How do you think in this environment that we are with on-shore and in French showing, 175 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,040 how will this role that the indigenous peoples are now playing in the economic development 176 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,760 of Canada, not just their communities because it's of the country as a whole, how do you 177 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:17,080 think this will affect the perception and the attractiveness as a destination for FDI? 178 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,120 So it's really interesting what's happening. 179 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,160 I can't speak for indigenous communities. 180 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,840 I'll let them speak for themselves. 181 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:28,160 What they have told me in my observation is in a lot of cases, foreign direct investment 182 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,840 is coming right into the communities and bypassing the Canadian government, quite frankly. 183 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,400 They're not going to the crown in order to seek permission to go and speak to the indigenous 184 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:37,400 community. 185 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,560 They're going directly to the indigenous community. 186 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:45,600 So part of the role that I can help play at CIBC is something like this, creating these 187 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:52,000 kind of connections here in the UK that allow me to say to somebody in British Columbia 188 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,760 who is looking for investment, where do I start? 189 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,320 How do I reach out to other people without going through the government? 190 00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:59,920 I can say, well, look, you can come. 191 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:01,120 Here's the platform. 192 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,520 Come here and they can help you and try to figure out how to get in front of the right 193 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:13,520 people because part of the work that's being done right now is the work that is necessary 194 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,560 for foreign investment to take a real good glance at projects. 195 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:22,400 And it has to do with creating strategies and creating programs. 196 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,440 So in British Columbia, for example, the First Nations there have a critical mineral 197 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,480 strategy that they've put together. 198 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,400 And they want to travel with it. 199 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,040 They want to explain it to companies and investors in other countries. 200 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:41,240 And now they have a path that they can follow by being able to go through a forum like this 201 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,800 that isn't necessarily connected to the government. 202 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:45,800 Going to the government is not a bad thing. 203 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:50,160 And Jonathan Wilkinson, who is the Minister of Natural Resources, says that every time 204 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,520 he goes to a foreign country to talk about LNG, he is going to ask for an indigenous 205 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,800 delegation to come with him to put the people together, which makes a lot of sense. 206 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:04,640 And I see no reason why any government going forward would not do exactly the same thing. 207 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,240 It helps facilitate trade. 208 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:12,400 But the reality is that capacity needs to be built, strategies have to be in place, 209 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,520 and then you need root in order to be able to facilitate. 210 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:16,800 And then you go from there. 211 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:22,760 Yeah, the law is catching up with Canadian law adopting the UN Declaration on Rights 212 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,080 of Indigenous Peoples. 213 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,640 But the business world and I think indigenous communities are already there. 214 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,160 The fact is, whatever the law says, if you want to get a project done, if you want to 215 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:38,240 invest in a business that's going to have an impact on an indigenous community in Canada, 216 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,720 you will need that community's consent. 217 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:48,880 It's surprising we've heard at the summit of instances in the past where projects, pretty 218 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:55,000 big projects on indigenous lands proceeded without consent. 219 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,360 And our audience was familiar with some of the protests and court cases, but hopefully 220 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,360 the lessons have been learned. 221 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,200 And as you said, free, prior and informed consent is the way of the future and the only 222 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,640 way to get things done. 223 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,160 Yeah, yeah. 224 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,160 Exactly. 225 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:19,360 So we've heard a lot at the summit about the importance of prior and informed consent 226 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:24,840 and a different way of doing business with indigenous communities. 227 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:30,280 What advice would you offer the next generation of business leaders who want to engage in 228 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,760 a respectful and productive way with indigenous communities? 229 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,240 Wow, that's a really good question. 230 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:43,000 What's interesting is that the current, like I guess we're saying that we're old, Rob, 231 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:50,720 but the current people of my age who are involved in businesses in Canada, they're not closed 232 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,280 minded to this whatsoever. 233 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,680 If you look at any of the resource companies, they definitely want to have indigenous participation 234 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,040 and equity in partnerships. 235 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,880 They can learn from it. 236 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:08,080 If you're not thinking in that way, then you're really not going to be doing any kind of development 237 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,080 in Canada. 238 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:14,760 I mean, let's just put it, I think, very frankly, because it's every piece of land in this country 239 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:20,000 is going to have either a claim on it or potentially a claim on it. 240 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,160 And as a result, want to make sure that you're being astute in how you approach it. 241 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:29,600 So the next generation, man, I like you said it, I think we said prior to starting this 242 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,480 interview, Mark, I mean, as Canadians, we weren't taught a lot about reconciliation. 243 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,960 We weren't taught at all about reconciliation. 244 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,600 Next generation has, and it's part of their life, and they get it. 245 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,240 And I think what we're going to see, hopefully we're going to see, is that the next leaders, 246 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:49,640 quite frankly, are indigenous and that they, you know, we have more indigenous people on 247 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,720 boards that we have more indigenous women in the C-suite. 248 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,920 That's the kind of thing that I'm going to be looking for is to see the rising through 249 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,480 the ranks of people. 250 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,440 But it does intake is extremely important, as you know, and we have to make sure that 251 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:11,560 we create, I guess, a path from post-secondary education into jobs that makes sense and that 252 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,320 we can train the next leaders in companies and in institutions. 253 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:21,320 So I think what I would say to the next generation of developers is you've been taught the importance 254 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,120 of economic reconciliation. 255 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,800 We all agree that that's our path forward. 256 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:31,320 And its relationships are incredibly important and form them and abide by them and build 257 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:32,320 trust. 258 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,560 And you know what? 259 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:38,200 We could do with a lot more of that kind of relationship building in this market than 260 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,080 possibly the old ways of being so cutthroat. 261 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,280 But you know, I'm saying that as a former politician, not somebody who comes from financial 262 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,600 institutions and I'm sure people are rolling their eyes at my Polly Anish ways. 263 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:54,600 But look, I think that is the secret sauce is to develop relationships over a long period 264 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,160 of time and do deals that make sense for both parties. 265 00:16:58,160 --> 00:16:59,160 I think so. 266 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,120 You've been here in the city of London at Mansion House where the event was held and 267 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,440 obviously the city is about relationships completely. 268 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:12,120 What do you think the audience here, who's primarily British, what were their key takeaways 269 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:16,520 or what key takeaway did you leave with them after some of your discussions that you've 270 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:17,520 had over here? 271 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,080 Where obviously CIBC has a presence as well. 272 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:27,800 So it's interesting because there's oftentimes this fear of not knowing how do I engage. 273 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,080 Like there's a mystery around how do I engage with Indigenous communities. 274 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:38,520 And I think I hope what the attendees have heard is that we can point to documents. 275 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:39,840 We can point to places. 276 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:45,720 We can point to websites where you can go to educate yourself on the best way to approach. 277 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,200 And there are places where you can seek advisors in Canada who are going to bring you through 278 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:51,640 the process as well. 279 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,040 I think the fact that they should know and understand that having Indigenous partnership 280 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:02,080 or seeking free and informed prior consent is not an impediment to business. 281 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,800 That would be the biggest takeaway. 282 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:04,920 It's part of doing business. 283 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:06,640 It's due diligence at the end of the day. 284 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,920 It's just at the very front end. 285 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,320 And it's an okay thing, nothing to be afraid of. 286 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:12,320 It's normal. 287 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,760 Once you have the tools and you know how to do it, then it becomes pretty simplistic. 288 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:22,040 And boy, I will tell you that going back to the Clearwater Foods example, that strong 289 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:28,440 relationship between two men in Cape Breton and Nova Scotia, that really was what drove 290 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,000 this incredible deal for the MIGMA in Atlanta, Canada. 291 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:39,800 Lisa, as vice chair of Global Investment Banking at CIBC Capital Markets, how is CIBC positioning 292 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,760 itself to support what is going on and are there any particular initiatives you're proud 293 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:45,760 of? 294 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:46,760 Many. 295 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,520 First of all, the bank writ large has a reconciliation action committee. 296 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,240 And I co-chair it with Janie Lickers, who's Indigenous, and she's the senior vice president 297 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,120 on Indigenous markets. 298 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:00,960 And we pull from the entire enterprise in the bank. 299 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,360 So it is capital markets. 300 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:04,160 It is wealth. 301 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:05,280 Everybody is involved. 302 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:11,400 And we meet quarterly and we have a scorecard and it reports right into the CEO, just to 303 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,080 make sure that we continuously move the ball forward. 304 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,280 See, it's not just about having an advisory committee. 305 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,720 It's not just about saying you have a reconciliation committee. 306 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,080 What matters is that you're continuously progressing and that you're being measured on how you 307 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,720 continuously progress. 308 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:32,120 So we are sharing more information across the bank so that we can serve our clients. 309 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:36,920 And the clients sometimes are companies who want to do business with Indigenous communities. 310 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,520 Sometimes it's an Indigenous community as well, who needs representation or they need 311 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,480 a capital raise or they need advisory services. 312 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,660 We have worked, without getting too detailed, we have worked in transmission. 313 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:50,100 We have worked in oil and gas. 314 00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:53,200 We have worked in telecommunications. 315 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:59,000 We've worked in all those spaces, either for companies or for Indigenous communities. 316 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:04,200 The approach is always the same, build the relationship, understand what the needs are, 317 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:09,880 make sure you're not rushing the pace, and knowing the appropriate places to go if outside 318 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,720 help is needed in terms of government policy or programming funding. 319 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,640 And that's kind of the expertise that we've built up. 320 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,800 And from my point of view as Vice-Chair, for the last two years, if you asked me on any 321 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:27,160 interview, on any TV show, anywhere, what is the most important thing that federal government 322 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:28,160 can do? 323 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,880 I would tell you, and I have told you that Indigenous loan guarantees from the federal 324 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,240 government are a key to ensuring that we're going to have development in the country and 325 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,000 economic reconciliation. 326 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:44,560 And after many, many, many years of bugging, one of the voices, Charlene Gale, and the 327 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,360 whole crew did a lot more than I did. 328 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:50,520 But I added my voice and I used my platform just to say this is important. 329 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,640 It's something that Canadians want and something that Canadians need to have as a relationship 330 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:55,960 with Indigenous communities. 331 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:02,960 Yeah, there were many voices and yours and CIBCs was an important one in that mix that 332 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,160 helped bring that about. 333 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,800 So congratulations to you and everybody else who advocated for that initiative. 334 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:14,720 It's an important one, hopefully a first step to help unlock what is needed, not just in 335 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,880 Indigenous communities, but Canada. 336 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:23,160 If we are going to transition our energy sources, if we are going to grow and become more productive 337 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:29,640 as a country, you mentioned all roads on these projects lead through Indigenous territories. 338 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:37,520 We've heard statistics like there's something like 470 odd projects in the pipeline expected 339 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:43,720 over the next 10 years, 500 odd billion dollars of investment needed. 340 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,960 These are projects that run through or on Indigenous territories. 341 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:54,720 And so we need programs like the federal government has initiated to help kickstart some of those. 342 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:55,720 Yeah, I agree. 343 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:02,160 You know, it's interesting too, at the beginning, this particular government, which full disclosure, 344 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,840 as you know, is not my political strike being partisan, but this particular government at 345 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,800 the beginning when they started talking about federal Indigenous long guarantees were very 346 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,160 focused on excluding oil and gas. 347 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,800 And you know, it took about a year of explaining from Indigenous communities that you don't 348 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,680 get to tell us what to invest in. 349 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,720 I mean, that's a fundamental part of self-government as well. 350 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:26,720 You get to choose. 351 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:32,000 So they, in their announcement, they very clearly said they are sector-agnostic, meaning 352 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:37,320 that the long guarantees can go towards oil and gas projects, should that be the desire 353 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,040 in the wish of the First Nations community to do so. 354 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,080 I think that's a big win and it's a big recognition of all the projects. 355 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,560 But of course, I think it's $5 billion of long guarantees that can go like that. 356 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,840 So we'll see whose projects are going to win first. 357 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:58,960 But I do know that any Canadian government now or in the future is going to be carrying 358 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,880 both critical minerals. 359 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,280 And that is where the relationship with First Nations and Indigenous communities is the 360 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,200 most important. 361 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:13,320 Because like you said about energy transition, we're talking national security as well, making 362 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,920 sure that supply chains, Frenchoring. 363 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,640 I mean, if we're going to put ourselves in the windows, Canada, as being a trusted place 364 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,760 to acquire your lithium, to get your copper, to get your chromite, to get whatever it is 365 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,880 that you need, then we need to be able to show that we can get a project done in under 366 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:30,880 16 years. 367 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:31,880 Yeah, absolutely. 368 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,880 I think one of the things with Canada, first of all, if you look at the land and then the 369 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:42,020 place called Canada, how much our country has changed, our land has changed, Rob. 370 00:23:42,020 --> 00:23:44,280 Our country has obviously changed. 371 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:50,280 And I think this is one of these huge opportunities that Canada and Canadians always stand up 372 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:56,800 for and make happen because we get to reinvent our country and how a country works with everybody 373 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,160 who's in the country, those who are there first, the Indigenous people and those who 374 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,440 came later, to really make something special. 375 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,520 And as we're in more turbulent times, as you're talking about critical minerals and these 376 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,040 other issues, I think it just reinforces the opportunity in front of us. 377 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,800 And if you look at both your firms, two of the most recognized names, Enterprise Names 378 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:21,600 in Canada, McCarthy-Tetral and CIBC that you're here speaking about these issues, shows the 379 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:27,320 importance of this and probably why we'll succeed because the business leaders behind 380 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,800 it, the Indigenous people who are behind, the rest of Canada, once they've figured 381 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,480 it out, it was like, oh, we have to do something about this. 382 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:40,200 So I think the country and the business opportunities, it's a good time to be doing business with 383 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,120 Canada or looking at Canada as an investment opportunity. 384 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:44,120 I think so. 385 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:49,760 Yeah, some have described it as a hinge moment. 386 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,400 And this is a moment where... 387 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,600 Sorry for laughing, Rob. 388 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:01,440 No, it looks like this, things are headed in the right direction, things like government 389 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:07,280 loan programs at the federal level modeled on what the provinces have been doing in places 390 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,840 like Alberta where I understand they've never had a loan actually called and they've been 391 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,480 operating their program for years. 392 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,040 And so, yeah, we're all hopeful this is just the beginning. 393 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:23,120 Really pleased to hear organizations like CIBC when they talk about initiatives that 394 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:29,800 they're proud of are talking about not just being able to match investors with communities, 395 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:35,840 but looking at how they do business as a whole as part of economic reconciliation with Indigenous 396 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:36,840 peoples. 397 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:42,360 And McCarthy-Tatra was doing the same thing, looking inward, not just about how we can 398 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:47,960 provide legal services, but looking at ourselves as a business and how we operate and we take 399 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,720 economic reconciliation very seriously. 400 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:56,200 You know, to get philosophical for a minute, I sat in government between 08 and 15 and 401 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,520 the conversation around Indigenous communities at the time was really focused on the Indian 402 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:06,280 Act and how it was unworkable and how we need to change the Indian Act. 403 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,280 It just, we got ourselves into gridlock. 404 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,400 We couldn't get our way out. 405 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,600 So when the Indigenous communities took it upon themselves to say, okay, forget about 406 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,160 that, let's figure out how to do projects together, I mean, they're the ones that are 407 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,720 leading the way on this. 408 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,960 It's not that Canadians suddenly woke up and decided, oh, we're going to work with Indigenous 409 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,960 communities. 410 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,160 It was the Indigenous communities that rescued us from being stuck in this incredible swamp 411 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,520 of not knowing what to do with respect to the Indian Act. 412 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,800 And that's why we're so far ahead now. 413 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:44,320 And I think I believe attendees at the summit will have heard a message that Indigenous communities 414 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,280 want to participate. 415 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:52,040 They want development when it's done properly, when they're consulted in a meaningful way, 416 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:58,400 when they have a meaningful stake in how these projects or businesses will evolve or be developed. 417 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,160 When that is done in a proper way, Indigenous communities are very, very supportive. 418 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:08,440 And I think that may have surprised some of our attendees at the summit, times of change 419 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:15,480 from even 15 years ago when we got excited about LNG possibilities. 420 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,640 I think we've learned a lot in that period since then. 421 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,160 I think we're still excited about LNG possibilities. 422 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,160 We're just... 423 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,160 Yeah. 424 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,840 I'm coming back because it was one area that we haven't touched on is about your own personal 425 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,360 understanding of Indigenous cultures and perspectives and how that's influenced your approach to 426 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:37,760 leadership, not your current role, but all the organizations you're involved in. 427 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:38,760 Yeah. 428 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:44,240 So when I was in government, I had natural resources, I had labor, and I had transport. 429 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,600 So I didn't have any direct connectivity necessarily with Indigenous communities. 430 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,200 I was kind of on the periphery. 431 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:57,640 But where I grew up in Cape Breton and what I witnessed was an incredible economic transformation 432 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:04,840 of a community where they went from incredible impoverishment, lots of high school dropout, 433 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:13,040 not moving on to university, a ton of racism, conflicts within the community between Sydney 434 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,440 and the First Nation itself, member two. 435 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,320 Two where we are now, which is part owner of Clearwater Foods, an incredible economic 436 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,840 engine for the Abilitt, for the region. 437 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:29,280 The number two employer in the region, imagine, goes to be the number two employer. 438 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,800 So I have witnessed the possibilities. 439 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,880 I've witnessed the opportunity and I just would love to see that happen for Canada. 440 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:43,840 And what it came down to was building a partnerships, slowly developing plans, gathering the community 441 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,120 together, looking after the community always, and having... 442 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,040 They had a fight for their rights though. 443 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,360 They wouldn't be where they are today, but for the fact that Donald Marshall Jr. challenged 444 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,040 the right for hereditary fishing. 445 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,680 I mean, we have to recognize that and that allowed them to build and they were smart 446 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,280 and they invested. 447 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:09,520 And that can happen right across this country. 448 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,560 That's what I bring to the table. 449 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:19,440 I have weren't witnessed to the credible, I would say, metamorphosis of a community in 450 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:20,960 no more than 30 years. 451 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:21,960 Excellent. 452 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:28,320 So hopefully we'll see more of those successful transformations over the next years as a result 453 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,080 of the conference and of course all the work that everyone's doing. 454 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,560 But again, it comes back to people standing up for what they believe in and for their 455 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:37,560 rights. 456 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,120 But also, when you talk about the way to do business, when we all sit back and think, 457 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,880 we all know that's how we should do business anyway. 458 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,520 It is about building relationships. 459 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:47,520 Right? 460 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,360 And taking time, getting organized and doing things in the right way, not necessarily the 461 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,360 quickest. 462 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,760 Okay, speed is important, but to do things well. 463 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,120 And I think this is the chance to reinvigorate the approach to business because if you come 464 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,240 to Canada to do business now, these are the rules of the game. 465 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,320 And Canada has a lot to offer, foreign investors around the world. 466 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,440 This is just the new playbook that we have. 467 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,680 Indeed, indeed. 468 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,080 And any other foreign investment is going to, as they go into other countries, they learn 469 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,400 how to work with the culture of the country. 470 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,280 So it's nothing new for a foreign investor to come into a country and figure out the 471 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,600 culture that you're investing in and go from there. 472 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,480 It's just, it's a new addition to work with Indigenous communities. 473 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,480 Great. 474 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,640 Well, thanks very much for your time, Lisa. 475 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,920 Any final thoughts coming out of the summit or calls to action comments you'd like to 476 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,600 leave with our audience? 477 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:45,920 Yeah, I can't emphasize enough the importance of helping Indigenous communities build capacity 478 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,960 to do these kinds of projects within their own communities. 479 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:55,760 And the only way that's going to happen is if current companies open up and bring in 480 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,360 people to train. 481 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:03,360 And giving an example of a financial institution, they get thousands of applications to come 482 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,760 in and work in various parts of the bank. 483 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:13,600 And perhaps an Indigenous student just doesn't have the resume that looks like something 484 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,120 that an AI robot is going to spit out for us to consider. 485 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,560 Because remember, this culling happens through AI. 486 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,480 I mean, you may realize that. 487 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,520 So I think it's important for us to remember that the traditional path is not the path 488 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,080 that Indigenous students are following. 489 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,680 We need to make sure that we make more effort to bring more people in. 490 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,840 And what's happening in Canada, I would say right now, to be very candid is where you 491 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:45,080 see people like you, Rob, who have built a career, you're a hot commodity. 492 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,520 And we see companies all trying to cannibalize from one another this knowledge of, like, 493 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,520 for example, Indigenous markets in the case of banking. 494 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,200 And that's problematic because we want to build and backfill more. 495 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,320 We don't want to leave it at just a handful of people in the country who can do the work. 496 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:07,280 I focus on that younger generation, that younger cohort coming out of high school, showing 497 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:13,720 the opportunity involved in banking, in law, in accounting, and then saying, and it's okay 498 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,600 if you want to go back to your community. 499 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:16,600 We're going to train you. 500 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,520 We're going to give you all the tools and the skills so that you can go home. 501 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:21,520 Excellent. 502 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,320 The meaningful conversation with the Honorable Lisa Reidener insights on CIBC proved that 503 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,920 when financial institutions stand behind Indigenous-led projects, they do more than provide funding. 504 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,600 They offer essential guidance, foster resilience, and fuel economic growth. 505 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,480 As you consider your own journey, think about the transformative power of the right investment. 506 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,160 I'm Mark McNacca. 507 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,880 Don't forget to subscribe to Drum Beats for more impactful discussions. 508 00:32:46,880 --> 00:33:03,520 Thank you for listening.