Welcome to Drum Beats, where I, Mark McNacca, along with my fellow co-host Robert Brand,
explore the people and projects shaping Indigenous investment in Canada.
Today, we're joined by the Honorable Lisa Wright, Vice Chair of CIBC Capital Markets.
She discusses CIBC's commitment to supporting Indigenous communities by expanding access
to capital and creating inclusive financial pathways.
We'll look at how CIBC prioritizes Indigenous investment, drives economic growth, and strengthens
Indigenous-led projects across the country.
Lisa, you've been a distinguished leader, held several leadership roles in public and
private service over the years.
Coming out of the summit, what is your vision for the future of investment in Canada, in
particular as it relates to investment in Indigenous communities?
Yeah, well, thank you very much.
And I was delighted to be invited to come over and take part in the conference.
We've been doing a lot of work in Canada about getting the word out that Indigenous peoples
want to be part of a project, an equity partner in some cases, not in all cases.
It really is up to the community how they want to proceed.
But there is an obligation for free, prior, informed consent, and with that comes the
opportunity to have investment.
The tricky part about it, though, is in Canada, it's very difficult for Indigenous communities
to get competitively priced capital in order to be able to participate in a project.
And we've been kind of struggling with that here in Canada for a while.
Governments have stepped in to provide some loan guarantees, but it really is the capital
markets in the financial sector that have to start to play a much bigger role in making
sure that we can flow the funds into these great projects so that they can partner with
other corporations to build the actual infrastructure we need for this country to have long-term
economic growth.
One of the elders in the country always says that all roads for resources go through First
Nations land, and it's very, very true.
So we need to get it right.
We need to make sure that the financing is there.
So that's Canada.
And now over here in the UK, why not let the world know what a great opportunity is, what
a stable investment this is, and how Canadians are moving forward in Indigenous communities
are looking for investment, not just from Canadians, but from around the world?
Absolutely, because what is happening in Canada is unique in my experience to what is happening
in the rest of the world as regards Indigenous involvement.
And it's really something we should be proud of.
We've learned from past mistakes, and I think we're doing things a lot better.
How do you see the role of institutions like CIBC in facilitating and supporting sustainable
investment and development in particular in Indigenous communities?
Look, Indigenous communities have been using banks for a long, long time.
There's no question about it.
We have had great customers and clients along the way.
It's the capital markets that are getting involved now.
And as you know, capital markets are a different beast.
Probably don't have as much understanding of Indigenous ways, Indigenous cultures, Indigenous
approaches to relationship building.
So I think institutionally what we need to do is just take a breath and understand that
it's not run of the mill.
It's a very different entity.
And as a result, we have the obligation to serve our client best, and the way to do that
is to understand exactly how to make sure that we're interacting, that we're bringing
to the table the information that is needed.
And the other part of it too that I've learned is that pace is very different.
Even making takes a little bit longer because it's more consultative and that the planning
is for seven generations and that you can't force the timelines and the deadlines.
And it's not necessarily a bad thing.
In our world, we're always rush, rush, rush, trying to get things done quickly.
But you have to meet the cadence of the clients.
And I think how financial institutions have to adapt is have that understanding.
I think one of the takeaways for us as well is the importance of helping to build capacity
so that the ability for Indigenous communities to, in their own space, have the ability to
do due diligence or judge whether or not a project is good, if the deal is something
good.
Ideally, we'd like to get to a point where they're doing all that in their own community
instead of hiring advisors.
So we have an obligation on helping build capacity as well, which means hiring more people to
work in capital markets.
Lisa, can you provide some examples of successful collaborations between the financial sector
and Indigenous communities?
You bet.
They start slow, but they do come online and more and more projects are happening.
So I'll give you an example.
There is projects, mainly these projects, Rob, are in the oil and gas space or in the resources
space.
And they're the ones that are coming to fruition right now.
And without getting into details, I would say that the examples are, in one instance,
where the company will lend the money to the Indigenous community and then they have a portion
of equity like 10%, 15% or something.
A big difference, I think, a game changer was the Clearwater Fisheries deal that happened
in Nova Scotia in the Maritimes, the land of provinces where I'm from.
It was John Risley, who owned Clearwater Foods, decided that he had known Chief Terry Paul
for many, many, many years.
And when John Risley decided he was going to sell, he knew that there was going to be
Indigenous partnership in it.
And the whole deal was pretty much structured around making sure that Indigenous partnership
was going to be part of and a significant part of this operation.
The hard part is finding the money.
So why it was a landmark, it was.
It was a significant raise.
They did partner with another private sector entity in order to do the deal.
But they got it done.
And it's the kind of thing where the most important part of both the value of Clearwater
Foods is the fishing licenses that they hold.
And the Indigenous peoples hold many, many fishing licenses in the Atlantic provinces
and they have a traditional right to fish the waters.
And as a result, putting it all under one roof just made so much sense.
And you know that those fishing license are going to stay intact.
They're not going to be broken up and sold.
And the reason being is that seven generations of planning.
And Chief Terry will tell you that right now his people may be fishers and they may be
in the plants and they may be running the plants.
But eventually they're going to be the CEOs and the CFOs.
They're going to be on the board.
And it's just, it has to build the capacity throughout the community.
And you know, from a social point of view, imagine knowing that you are a big part owner
of this massive conglomerate that one day as a kid growing up and member to a Raskozoni,
you can go and work for that incredible, incredible corporation and still be working
with your people and living in your community.
It's a wonderful story.
So I look at that as the, I think that was the very first deal where people went, huh,
well, that was interesting.
Yeah, Lisa, we've seen different models over the years used for financing in indigenous
communities.
We've seen things like impact, benefit agreements and jobs promised.
Sometimes royalties paid in Canada.
There are some unique structures being used.
You mentioned equity.
What do you see as the future is between the different models that are out there?
Oh, I think for the communities that choose to want to have an equity stake in a project
that runs through their lands, that the markets are going to respond in the most efficient
way that they can.
So I'll give you an example for it.
Mackay, for example, bought some assets from an oil and gas company.
They didn't have to go for a loan guarantee.
They actually went out to the market and they ended up doing a bond and they, they were
able to raise the money for, for other projects.
The sheer size of it means that you may have to go to the First Nations financing authority.
They can help you with that.
Or you get a guarantee from either your provincial government or your federal government or the
both of them.
And then you use that to try to go out to investors in the market and see who's interested
that way.
So a lot of these are working their way through the system right now, but I have to tell you,
talking to my partners at CIBC, it's not as difficult as you may think.
You know, our goal is to get the best price for the clients and make sure that they're
not going to be burdened by too high a cost on the, on the capital, but it seems to be
working.
There's always going to be tweaks that are going to be needed from any federal policy
or provincial policy.
And we're there to help communicate that in the most appropriate way.
It does sure seem like the days of an unindigenous business wanting to do a project on indigenous
lands, just leasing the land or just promising some jobs or some training is probably not
good enough.
And we at McCarthy-Tatur are seeing different models used.
Equity isn't for everybody.
There are risks and challenges.
Debt is sometimes expensive.
But the key now I think is it's a choice and there's a menu of choices available for indigenous
communities and the financial markets are there to support those choices.
I agree.
The other point too, Rob, when you mentioned choice, it's such an important word because
sometimes you can learn great things from the community about where your project should
be cited or what route it should take and where certain things should happen and how
they should happen.
And that is as important, I think, for indigenous communities as is the monetary side of it,
the revenue side of it.
They want to make sure the project is done right.
They are the trustees of the land and they take it very seriously.
And as a result, they want to know at the beginning what the project looks like.
And it's not because they're nosy and it's not because they want to get in your business.
They actually can add value and help.
And especially in Canada where environmental assessments can take a long time, why wouldn't
you want to start by going and speaking to the indigenous community and just say, this
is what we're thinking of?
What do you think?
And build the relationship from there.
Like I said, we don't have to rush and do everything immediately.
Hopefully, what will happen is you'll end up having a shorter time because you took
the chance or you took the time to do the work upfront as opposed to ending up in court
at the back end of a project.
Just on that, Lisa.
So Canada is one of the top G7 destinations for FDI.
How do you think in this environment that we are with on-shore and in French showing,
how will this role that the indigenous peoples are now playing in the economic development
of Canada, not just their communities because it's of the country as a whole, how do you
think this will affect the perception and the attractiveness as a destination for FDI?
So it's really interesting what's happening.
I can't speak for indigenous communities.
I'll let them speak for themselves.
What they have told me in my observation is in a lot of cases, foreign direct investment
is coming right into the communities and bypassing the Canadian government, quite frankly.
They're not going to the crown in order to seek permission to go and speak to the indigenous
community.
They're going directly to the indigenous community.
So part of the role that I can help play at CIBC is something like this, creating these
kind of connections here in the UK that allow me to say to somebody in British Columbia
who is looking for investment, where do I start?
How do I reach out to other people without going through the government?
I can say, well, look, you can come.
Here's the platform.
Come here and they can help you and try to figure out how to get in front of the right
people because part of the work that's being done right now is the work that is necessary
for foreign investment to take a real good glance at projects.
And it has to do with creating strategies and creating programs.
So in British Columbia, for example, the First Nations there have a critical mineral
strategy that they've put together.
And they want to travel with it.
They want to explain it to companies and investors in other countries.
And now they have a path that they can follow by being able to go through a forum like this
that isn't necessarily connected to the government.
Going to the government is not a bad thing.
And Jonathan Wilkinson, who is the Minister of Natural Resources, says that every time
he goes to a foreign country to talk about LNG, he is going to ask for an indigenous
delegation to come with him to put the people together, which makes a lot of sense.
And I see no reason why any government going forward would not do exactly the same thing.
It helps facilitate trade.
But the reality is that capacity needs to be built, strategies have to be in place,
and then you need root in order to be able to facilitate.
And then you go from there.
Yeah, the law is catching up with Canadian law adopting the UN Declaration on Rights
of Indigenous Peoples.
But the business world and I think indigenous communities are already there.
The fact is, whatever the law says, if you want to get a project done, if you want to
invest in a business that's going to have an impact on an indigenous community in Canada,
you will need that community's consent.
It's surprising we've heard at the summit of instances in the past where projects, pretty
big projects on indigenous lands proceeded without consent.
And our audience was familiar with some of the protests and court cases, but hopefully
the lessons have been learned.
And as you said, free, prior and informed consent is the way of the future and the only
way to get things done.
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
So we've heard a lot at the summit about the importance of prior and informed consent
and a different way of doing business with indigenous communities.
What advice would you offer the next generation of business leaders who want to engage in
a respectful and productive way with indigenous communities?
Wow, that's a really good question.
What's interesting is that the current, like I guess we're saying that we're old, Rob,
but the current people of my age who are involved in businesses in Canada, they're not closed
minded to this whatsoever.
If you look at any of the resource companies, they definitely want to have indigenous participation
and equity in partnerships.
They can learn from it.
If you're not thinking in that way, then you're really not going to be doing any kind of development
in Canada.
I mean, let's just put it, I think, very frankly, because it's every piece of land in this country
is going to have either a claim on it or potentially a claim on it.
And as a result, want to make sure that you're being astute in how you approach it.
So the next generation, man, I like you said it, I think we said prior to starting this
interview, Mark, I mean, as Canadians, we weren't taught a lot about reconciliation.
We weren't taught at all about reconciliation.
Next generation has, and it's part of their life, and they get it.
And I think what we're going to see, hopefully we're going to see, is that the next leaders,
quite frankly, are indigenous and that they, you know, we have more indigenous people on
boards that we have more indigenous women in the C-suite.
That's the kind of thing that I'm going to be looking for is to see the rising through
the ranks of people.
But it does intake is extremely important, as you know, and we have to make sure that
we create, I guess, a path from post-secondary education into jobs that makes sense and that
we can train the next leaders in companies and in institutions.
So I think what I would say to the next generation of developers is you've been taught the importance
of economic reconciliation.
We all agree that that's our path forward.
And its relationships are incredibly important and form them and abide by them and build
trust.
And you know what?
We could do with a lot more of that kind of relationship building in this market than
possibly the old ways of being so cutthroat.
But you know, I'm saying that as a former politician, not somebody who comes from financial
institutions and I'm sure people are rolling their eyes at my Polly Anish ways.
But look, I think that is the secret sauce is to develop relationships over a long period
of time and do deals that make sense for both parties.
I think so.
You've been here in the city of London at Mansion House where the event was held and
obviously the city is about relationships completely.
What do you think the audience here, who's primarily British, what were their key takeaways
or what key takeaway did you leave with them after some of your discussions that you've
had over here?
Where obviously CIBC has a presence as well.
So it's interesting because there's oftentimes this fear of not knowing how do I engage.
Like there's a mystery around how do I engage with Indigenous communities.
And I think I hope what the attendees have heard is that we can point to documents.
We can point to places.
We can point to websites where you can go to educate yourself on the best way to approach.
And there are places where you can seek advisors in Canada who are going to bring you through
the process as well.
I think the fact that they should know and understand that having Indigenous partnership
or seeking free and informed prior consent is not an impediment to business.
That would be the biggest takeaway.
It's part of doing business.
It's due diligence at the end of the day.
It's just at the very front end.
And it's an okay thing, nothing to be afraid of.
It's normal.
Once you have the tools and you know how to do it, then it becomes pretty simplistic.
And boy, I will tell you that going back to the Clearwater Foods example, that strong
relationship between two men in Cape Breton and Nova Scotia, that really was what drove
this incredible deal for the MIGMA in Atlanta, Canada.
Lisa, as vice chair of Global Investment Banking at CIBC Capital Markets, how is CIBC positioning
itself to support what is going on and are there any particular initiatives you're proud
of?
Many.
First of all, the bank writ large has a reconciliation action committee.
And I co-chair it with Janie Lickers, who's Indigenous, and she's the senior vice president
on Indigenous markets.
And we pull from the entire enterprise in the bank.
So it is capital markets.
It is wealth.
Everybody is involved.
And we meet quarterly and we have a scorecard and it reports right into the CEO, just to
make sure that we continuously move the ball forward.
See, it's not just about having an advisory committee.
It's not just about saying you have a reconciliation committee.
What matters is that you're continuously progressing and that you're being measured on how you
continuously progress.
So we are sharing more information across the bank so that we can serve our clients.
And the clients sometimes are companies who want to do business with Indigenous communities.
Sometimes it's an Indigenous community as well, who needs representation or they need
a capital raise or they need advisory services.
We have worked, without getting too detailed, we have worked in transmission.
We have worked in oil and gas.
We have worked in telecommunications.
We've worked in all those spaces, either for companies or for Indigenous communities.
The approach is always the same, build the relationship, understand what the needs are,
make sure you're not rushing the pace, and knowing the appropriate places to go if outside
help is needed in terms of government policy or programming funding.
And that's kind of the expertise that we've built up.
And from my point of view as Vice-Chair, for the last two years, if you asked me on any
interview, on any TV show, anywhere, what is the most important thing that federal government
can do?
I would tell you, and I have told you that Indigenous loan guarantees from the federal
government are a key to ensuring that we're going to have development in the country and
economic reconciliation.
And after many, many, many years of bugging, one of the voices, Charlene Gale, and the
whole crew did a lot more than I did.
But I added my voice and I used my platform just to say this is important.
It's something that Canadians want and something that Canadians need to have as a relationship
with Indigenous communities.
Yeah, there were many voices and yours and CIBCs was an important one in that mix that
helped bring that about.
So congratulations to you and everybody else who advocated for that initiative.
It's an important one, hopefully a first step to help unlock what is needed, not just in
Indigenous communities, but Canada.
If we are going to transition our energy sources, if we are going to grow and become more productive
as a country, you mentioned all roads on these projects lead through Indigenous territories.
We've heard statistics like there's something like 470 odd projects in the pipeline expected
over the next 10 years, 500 odd billion dollars of investment needed.
These are projects that run through or on Indigenous territories.
And so we need programs like the federal government has initiated to help kickstart some of those.
Yeah, I agree.
You know, it's interesting too, at the beginning, this particular government, which full disclosure,
as you know, is not my political strike being partisan, but this particular government at
the beginning when they started talking about federal Indigenous long guarantees were very
focused on excluding oil and gas.
And you know, it took about a year of explaining from Indigenous communities that you don't
get to tell us what to invest in.
I mean, that's a fundamental part of self-government as well.
You get to choose.
So they, in their announcement, they very clearly said they are sector-agnostic, meaning
that the long guarantees can go towards oil and gas projects, should that be the desire
in the wish of the First Nations community to do so.
I think that's a big win and it's a big recognition of all the projects.
But of course, I think it's $5 billion of long guarantees that can go like that.
So we'll see whose projects are going to win first.
But I do know that any Canadian government now or in the future is going to be carrying
both critical minerals.
And that is where the relationship with First Nations and Indigenous communities is the
most important.
Because like you said about energy transition, we're talking national security as well, making
sure that supply chains, Frenchoring.
I mean, if we're going to put ourselves in the windows, Canada, as being a trusted place
to acquire your lithium, to get your copper, to get your chromite, to get whatever it is
that you need, then we need to be able to show that we can get a project done in under
16 years.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think one of the things with Canada, first of all, if you look at the land and then the
place called Canada, how much our country has changed, our land has changed, Rob.
Our country has obviously changed.
And I think this is one of these huge opportunities that Canada and Canadians always stand up
for and make happen because we get to reinvent our country and how a country works with everybody
who's in the country, those who are there first, the Indigenous people and those who
came later, to really make something special.
And as we're in more turbulent times, as you're talking about critical minerals and these
other issues, I think it just reinforces the opportunity in front of us.
And if you look at both your firms, two of the most recognized names, Enterprise Names
in Canada, McCarthy-Tetral and CIBC that you're here speaking about these issues, shows the
importance of this and probably why we'll succeed because the business leaders behind
it, the Indigenous people who are behind, the rest of Canada, once they've figured
it out, it was like, oh, we have to do something about this.
So I think the country and the business opportunities, it's a good time to be doing business with
Canada or looking at Canada as an investment opportunity.
I think so.
Yeah, some have described it as a hinge moment.
And this is a moment where...
Sorry for laughing, Rob.
No, it looks like this, things are headed in the right direction, things like government
loan programs at the federal level modeled on what the provinces have been doing in places
like Alberta where I understand they've never had a loan actually called and they've been
operating their program for years.
And so, yeah, we're all hopeful this is just the beginning.
Really pleased to hear organizations like CIBC when they talk about initiatives that
they're proud of are talking about not just being able to match investors with communities,
but looking at how they do business as a whole as part of economic reconciliation with Indigenous
peoples.
And McCarthy-Tatra was doing the same thing, looking inward, not just about how we can
provide legal services, but looking at ourselves as a business and how we operate and we take
economic reconciliation very seriously.
You know, to get philosophical for a minute, I sat in government between 08 and 15 and
the conversation around Indigenous communities at the time was really focused on the Indian
Act and how it was unworkable and how we need to change the Indian Act.
It just, we got ourselves into gridlock.
We couldn't get our way out.
So when the Indigenous communities took it upon themselves to say, okay, forget about
that, let's figure out how to do projects together, I mean, they're the ones that are
leading the way on this.
It's not that Canadians suddenly woke up and decided, oh, we're going to work with Indigenous
communities.
It was the Indigenous communities that rescued us from being stuck in this incredible swamp
of not knowing what to do with respect to the Indian Act.
And that's why we're so far ahead now.
And I think I believe attendees at the summit will have heard a message that Indigenous communities
want to participate.
They want development when it's done properly, when they're consulted in a meaningful way,
when they have a meaningful stake in how these projects or businesses will evolve or be developed.
When that is done in a proper way, Indigenous communities are very, very supportive.
And I think that may have surprised some of our attendees at the summit, times of change
from even 15 years ago when we got excited about LNG possibilities.
I think we've learned a lot in that period since then.
I think we're still excited about LNG possibilities.
We're just...
Yeah.
I'm coming back because it was one area that we haven't touched on is about your own personal
understanding of Indigenous cultures and perspectives and how that's influenced your approach to
leadership, not your current role, but all the organizations you're involved in.
Yeah.
So when I was in government, I had natural resources, I had labor, and I had transport.
So I didn't have any direct connectivity necessarily with Indigenous communities.
I was kind of on the periphery.
But where I grew up in Cape Breton and what I witnessed was an incredible economic transformation
of a community where they went from incredible impoverishment, lots of high school dropout,
not moving on to university, a ton of racism, conflicts within the community between Sydney
and the First Nation itself, member two.
Two where we are now, which is part owner of Clearwater Foods, an incredible economic
engine for the Abilitt, for the region.
The number two employer in the region, imagine, goes to be the number two employer.
So I have witnessed the possibilities.
I've witnessed the opportunity and I just would love to see that happen for Canada.
And what it came down to was building a partnerships, slowly developing plans, gathering the community
together, looking after the community always, and having...
They had a fight for their rights though.
They wouldn't be where they are today, but for the fact that Donald Marshall Jr. challenged
the right for hereditary fishing.
I mean, we have to recognize that and that allowed them to build and they were smart
and they invested.
And that can happen right across this country.
That's what I bring to the table.
I have weren't witnessed to the credible, I would say, metamorphosis of a community in
no more than 30 years.
Excellent.
So hopefully we'll see more of those successful transformations over the next years as a result
of the conference and of course all the work that everyone's doing.
But again, it comes back to people standing up for what they believe in and for their
rights.
But also, when you talk about the way to do business, when we all sit back and think,
we all know that's how we should do business anyway.
It is about building relationships.
Right?
And taking time, getting organized and doing things in the right way, not necessarily the
quickest.
Okay, speed is important, but to do things well.
And I think this is the chance to reinvigorate the approach to business because if you come
to Canada to do business now, these are the rules of the game.
And Canada has a lot to offer, foreign investors around the world.
This is just the new playbook that we have.
Indeed, indeed.
And any other foreign investment is going to, as they go into other countries, they learn
how to work with the culture of the country.
So it's nothing new for a foreign investor to come into a country and figure out the
culture that you're investing in and go from there.
It's just, it's a new addition to work with Indigenous communities.
Great.
Well, thanks very much for your time, Lisa.
Any final thoughts coming out of the summit or calls to action comments you'd like to
leave with our audience?
Yeah, I can't emphasize enough the importance of helping Indigenous communities build capacity
to do these kinds of projects within their own communities.
And the only way that's going to happen is if current companies open up and bring in
people to train.
And giving an example of a financial institution, they get thousands of applications to come
in and work in various parts of the bank.
And perhaps an Indigenous student just doesn't have the resume that looks like something
that an AI robot is going to spit out for us to consider.
Because remember, this culling happens through AI.
I mean, you may realize that.
So I think it's important for us to remember that the traditional path is not the path
that Indigenous students are following.
We need to make sure that we make more effort to bring more people in.
And what's happening in Canada, I would say right now, to be very candid is where you
see people like you, Rob, who have built a career, you're a hot commodity.
And we see companies all trying to cannibalize from one another this knowledge of, like,
for example, Indigenous markets in the case of banking.
And that's problematic because we want to build and backfill more.
We don't want to leave it at just a handful of people in the country who can do the work.
I focus on that younger generation, that younger cohort coming out of high school, showing
the opportunity involved in banking, in law, in accounting, and then saying, and it's okay
if you want to go back to your community.
We're going to train you.
We're going to give you all the tools and the skills so that you can go home.
Excellent.
The meaningful conversation with the Honorable Lisa Reidener insights on CIBC proved that
when financial institutions stand behind Indigenous-led projects, they do more than provide funding.
They offer essential guidance, foster resilience, and fuel economic growth.
As you consider your own journey, think about the transformative power of the right investment.
I'm Mark McNacca.
Don't forget to subscribe to Drum Beats for more impactful discussions.
Thank you for listening.