WEBVTT 00:00:09.099 --> 00:00:12.320 Eve, it's great to have you here. The FNFA and 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:16.260 the FNFMB are at the forefront of a new wave 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:20.859 of Indigenous institutional investing. And I 00:00:20.859 --> 00:00:23.039 think it's really changing how funding is coming 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:25.579 to Indigenous communities and what they can achieve 00:00:25.579 --> 00:00:28.519 with the funding they're making available. Would 00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:32.859 you talk to our listeners a bit about your background, 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:35.899 though, about where you grew up and went to school 00:00:35.899 --> 00:00:39.359 and how did you end up where you are today? Yeah, 00:00:39.380 --> 00:00:44.619 thank you, Mark. So I'm not Indigenous. My background 00:00:44.619 --> 00:00:47.899 is I have parents who, father who grew up in 00:00:47.899 --> 00:00:50.320 Cape Breton, mama who grew up in Fredericton, 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:55.000 New Brunswick. But after law school, my father 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:57.920 got a job in a town called Kamloops in British 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:00.859 Columbia. And neither of you have probably ever 00:01:00.859 --> 00:01:03.939 been to Kamloops, but there's a river that runs 00:01:03.939 --> 00:01:06.079 through the town. So there's a north side of 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:09.370 Kamloops and a south side of Kamloops. And I 00:01:09.370 --> 00:01:12.370 would go to school and there were, you know, 00:01:12.390 --> 00:01:15.409 you make friends and friends come and go. But 00:01:15.409 --> 00:01:19.010 there was a consistent side of North Kamloops 00:01:19.010 --> 00:01:22.730 where First Nations children, Kamloops Indian 00:01:22.730 --> 00:01:25.250 Band at that time, you know, you'd make friends 00:01:25.250 --> 00:01:28.569 from grade one to grade eight. And in grade nine, 00:01:28.629 --> 00:01:31.250 you wouldn't see them anymore. And at that time, 00:01:31.269 --> 00:01:33.569 there wasn't a lot of press or media coverage 00:01:33.569 --> 00:01:38.709 on First Nations or. Indian bands within Canada 00:01:38.709 --> 00:01:42.909 as a whole and it wasn't until years later that 00:01:42.909 --> 00:01:46.450 you started realizing what a reserve was in Canada 00:01:46.450 --> 00:01:50.450 what was residential school history like so I 00:01:50.450 --> 00:01:53.609 started piecing together my past and the missing 00:01:53.609 --> 00:01:57.569 friends only in my 30s and at that time and it 00:01:57.569 --> 00:01:59.709 probably wasn't that much different from a lot 00:01:59.709 --> 00:02:03.170 of Canadians but it created questions in your 00:02:03.170 --> 00:02:06.400 head And those questions in your head were only 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:08.919 fulfilled after I transferred from one job to 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:12.159 FNFA and started learning more. But it was tied 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:15.039 to my background and tied to friendships that 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:17.500 seemed to come and go regularly, but for reasons 00:02:17.500 --> 00:02:20.139 I didn't understand. Thank you for sharing that. 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.919 And I think you're right for many Canadians who 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.740 are not Indigenous. The past 20 years has been 00:02:26.740 --> 00:02:30.360 eye -opening. For some, how to have their eyes 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:33.400 forcibly opened. For others, it solves a number 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:35.699 of questions they've had. But now we're in a 00:02:35.699 --> 00:02:40.280 position with UNDRIP and the Charter of Rights 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:44.840 and Freedoms and Indigenous leaders and people 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:46.900 such as you are helping Indigenous organizations 00:02:46.900 --> 00:02:50.300 take things to the next level. These economic 00:02:50.300 --> 00:02:53.139 opportunities are not just for the Indigenous 00:02:53.139 --> 00:02:55.500 people. The spinoff benefits are all of Canada. 00:02:56.009 --> 00:02:58.530 Because Canada now has a chance to actually realize 00:02:58.530 --> 00:03:00.789 its full potential because it's dealing with 00:03:00.789 --> 00:03:06.090 the baggage that was never addressed. So in terms 00:03:06.090 --> 00:03:08.629 of, you know, coming to your leadership role 00:03:08.629 --> 00:03:10.849 at FNFA, do you want to talk a little bit about 00:03:10.849 --> 00:03:13.729 how you ended up at FNA and a bit about your 00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:18.889 professional background? Sure. You get labeled 00:03:18.889 --> 00:03:22.729 in school pretty early on. And, you know, parents 00:03:22.729 --> 00:03:24.490 will come there. teacher interviews and they'll 00:03:24.490 --> 00:03:26.849 say, your son is good at mathematics. You should 00:03:26.849 --> 00:03:29.990 pursue a course in mathematics. Unfortunately, 00:03:30.110 --> 00:03:33.710 when I was growing up, there were standardized 00:03:33.710 --> 00:03:37.969 occupations you would be steered towards. There 00:03:37.969 --> 00:03:41.189 wasn't the wealth or variety of opportunities 00:03:41.189 --> 00:03:43.689 that kids have now. And even if you went and 00:03:43.689 --> 00:03:45.789 talked with counselors, you know, they would 00:03:45.789 --> 00:03:49.569 hand you a pamphlet and there may be five general 00:03:49.569 --> 00:03:52.569 areas that you'd look at and say, You know, you 00:03:52.569 --> 00:03:55.189 should be a teacher of mathematics or you should 00:03:55.189 --> 00:03:57.110 be an account or you should do this or that. 00:03:57.229 --> 00:04:00.250 But there wasn't a plethora of choices. So coming 00:04:00.250 --> 00:04:03.770 out of university, needing a job like most people 00:04:03.770 --> 00:04:06.789 to pay the bills, the economy was not in good 00:04:06.789 --> 00:04:08.969 shape. But the one thing about accounting firms 00:04:08.969 --> 00:04:11.669 is they record things when times are good and 00:04:11.669 --> 00:04:13.550 they record things when times are bad and they 00:04:13.550 --> 00:04:16.529 were hiring. So I got into accounting at KPMG, 00:04:16.610 --> 00:04:19.750 not because it was a passion or a love, but because 00:04:19.750 --> 00:04:22.759 the door was open for employment. But being at 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:26.180 KPMG, you realize something about yourself pretty 00:04:26.180 --> 00:04:30.079 quickly. You either recorded or, sorry, you liked 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.980 recording what other people did. In other words, 00:04:32.980 --> 00:04:34.839 they were the decision makers and you recorded 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:37.779 it or made sure it was recorded properly. Or 00:04:37.779 --> 00:04:39.379 you looked in the mirror and you said, I would 00:04:39.379 --> 00:04:42.240 like to be a decision maker. And it was pretty 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:44.899 apparent to me that recording what other people 00:04:44.899 --> 00:04:47.620 did did not fulfill me. I wanted to be the one 00:04:47.620 --> 00:04:50.519 that was in the front making the decisions, yes, 00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:54.980 no, timing, and doing the initiating of opportunities 00:04:54.980 --> 00:05:02.240 myself. So after I got my CA degree and sat down 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:05.399 with a senior partner at KPMG in Victoria, the 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.379 discussion was, where do you see yourself? And 00:05:08.379 --> 00:05:11.800 you never like to disappoint people, but the 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.959 look on his face when I said, I see myself working 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:19.560 elsewhere. It made me realize his passion was 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.519 accounting, but mine wasn't. Luckily, there was 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:25.800 an organization about three blocks away that 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.600 was a KPMG audit client called Municipal Finance 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.139 Authority of BC. And they were looking for an 00:05:32.139 --> 00:05:34.439 accountant in their finance area because they 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:37.500 were a financial authority for all of BC's municipalities. 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:41.100 And when I transitioned over, my knowledge in 00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:43.569 finance was... pretty limited to what you learn 00:05:43.569 --> 00:05:45.910 in university, present value, future value. You 00:05:45.910 --> 00:05:47.430 didn't know anything about bonds, debentures, 00:05:47.509 --> 00:05:51.689 capital markets. But when I got there, seeing 00:05:51.689 --> 00:05:55.930 what the news meant for the impact and interest 00:05:55.930 --> 00:05:59.189 rates, geopolitical events, a currency crisis, 00:05:59.509 --> 00:06:03.769 world leaders' comments, it started making the 00:06:03.769 --> 00:06:07.899 work area real life -like. And when you got up 00:06:07.899 --> 00:06:09.959 and you watch the news, you see how the impact 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:12.879 would be. So finance became a passion because 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:16.459 it was more than just numbers. It was tying in 00:06:16.459 --> 00:06:19.660 geopolitical around the world. 24 hours a day, 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:23.639 world spins. And that created a path for me to 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:25.660 transition out of accounting into the finance 00:06:25.660 --> 00:06:28.220 area. And I've never looked back. Great. Well, 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:30.839 it sounds like that was a win -win for KPMG and 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:33.629 you. Your boss there was probably... He doesn't 00:06:33.629 --> 00:06:35.610 want to be an accountant. What are we going to 00:06:35.610 --> 00:06:37.930 do with him? They, of course, had a client who 00:06:37.930 --> 00:06:40.550 needed someone. And look at you today. So that's 00:06:40.550 --> 00:06:44.009 great. Rob, do you want to talk a little bit 00:06:44.009 --> 00:06:49.670 about F &A? I'm curious, Steve, how similar your 00:06:49.670 --> 00:06:54.170 role at the BC Municipal Finance Authority is 00:06:54.170 --> 00:06:59.029 to your role at FNFA. And I know you oversaw 00:06:59.029 --> 00:07:02.399 the loan portfolio there. You do similar things 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:06.879 at the FNFA. And we spoke to Ernie Daniels on 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:09.759 our last podcast, talked a bit generally about 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:13.639 FNFA. But maybe remind our listeners, first of 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:18.920 all, what FNFA does. So first question was, are 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:20.879 they similar? So the Municipal Finance Authority 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:24.699 of BC is a financial body that goes and access 00:07:24.699 --> 00:07:28.000 financial monies at low rates for municipalities, 00:07:28.579 --> 00:07:32.129 towns, villages. different other bodies within 00:07:32.129 --> 00:07:34.670 the province of BC to do infrastructure projects. 00:07:35.250 --> 00:07:39.870 And around the late 1990s, early 2000s, there 00:07:39.870 --> 00:07:42.209 was a knock on the door by certain First Nation 00:07:42.209 --> 00:07:45.430 leaders asking whether they could join BCMFA, 00:07:45.709 --> 00:07:48.069 in other words, get access to the low -rate loans 00:07:48.069 --> 00:07:50.269 because their economies were trying to develop 00:07:50.269 --> 00:07:51.930 and the infrastructure was trying to be developed. 00:07:52.230 --> 00:07:55.370 And the answer was no. The provincial act that 00:07:55.370 --> 00:07:58.310 created BCMFA said you must be a local government 00:07:58.310 --> 00:08:01.600 as created under the province of British Columbia. 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:05.879 So it killed that. But what it did do is after 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:09.800 17 years at BCMFA, I looked in the mirror one 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:12.600 day and said, sometimes you can spend your whole 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:15.819 life at a job or you can take a chance and do 00:08:15.819 --> 00:08:18.019 another job. And I started wanting to take a 00:08:18.019 --> 00:08:21.560 chance to do another job. So when I started putting 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:25.310 my resume out there, the very... People that 00:08:25.310 --> 00:08:28.089 knocked on the door for trying to create or open 00:08:28.089 --> 00:08:30.769 the door for First Nations to also borrow at 00:08:30.769 --> 00:08:33.870 low rates asked whether I would take a risk, 00:08:34.009 --> 00:08:38.809 change jobs, and try to create FNFA. And you 00:08:38.809 --> 00:08:40.610 can see how the names are similar. You know, 00:08:40.669 --> 00:08:43.250 BC Municipal Finance Authority, First Nations 00:08:43.250 --> 00:08:46.350 Finance Authority. So it was purposely copied 00:08:46.350 --> 00:08:49.090 after the BC MFA model because it had been successful 00:08:49.090 --> 00:08:53.429 since 1970 and had a great reputation. So they 00:08:53.429 --> 00:08:56.830 are very similar. If you walked in and you saw 00:08:56.830 --> 00:08:59.389 what we did and you saw what BCMFA did, you'd 00:08:59.389 --> 00:09:02.289 say, wow, you guys look totally like you parallel 00:09:02.289 --> 00:09:05.470 each other. And that did occur for quite a while. 00:09:06.029 --> 00:09:09.870 But infrastructure is not the way First Nations 00:09:09.870 --> 00:09:12.909 are going to create wealth. Because if you own 00:09:12.909 --> 00:09:14.490 a house, you know, there are certain things that 00:09:14.490 --> 00:09:16.629 come up called maintenance. There are certain 00:09:16.629 --> 00:09:19.610 things that come up called repairs. And there 00:09:19.610 --> 00:09:21.909 are certain times you have to hire people to 00:09:21.909 --> 00:09:25.320 be. the maintenance or the custodians of those. 00:09:25.419 --> 00:09:28.919 So they are a cash user, not a cash creator in 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:32.700 a lot of cases. So where BCMFA and FNFA differ 00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:36.980 is municipalities are to provide services to 00:09:36.980 --> 00:09:40.220 the public. First Nations are to provide services 00:09:40.220 --> 00:09:43.320 to their membership. And here's the key difference, 00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:47.139 Robert, is First Nations do not get 100 cents 00:09:47.139 --> 00:09:50.429 on the dollar to run their programs. social programs, 00:09:50.549 --> 00:09:53.590 health programs, education programs, their governance 00:09:53.590 --> 00:09:56.970 of their administration. They need to make up 00:09:56.970 --> 00:09:59.309 a certain sense on the dollar. So where does 00:09:59.309 --> 00:10:02.509 it come from? It comes from economic opportunities. 00:10:03.029 --> 00:10:05.809 So the one difference you'll see between BCMFA, 00:10:05.929 --> 00:10:09.549 my old job, and FNFA was the creation of FNFA 00:10:09.549 --> 00:10:13.669 of the ability to lend to First Nations so that 00:10:13.669 --> 00:10:16.529 they can get in economic ventures. Those profits 00:10:16.529 --> 00:10:19.370 then create the missing cents on the dollar for 00:10:19.370 --> 00:10:22.230 their programs, or it allows enough money to 00:10:22.230 --> 00:10:25.929 be leveraged into other opportunities. So FNFA 00:10:25.929 --> 00:10:30.610 is an expansion of BCMFA's mandate, both infrastructure 00:10:30.610 --> 00:10:33.370 and now into economic opportunities as well. 00:10:33.669 --> 00:10:37.289 It sounds, Steve, like you were there in the 00:10:37.289 --> 00:10:41.529 very early days. When did you join FNFA? April 00:10:41.529 --> 00:10:45.940 1st, 2008. And, you know, you look at it and 00:10:45.940 --> 00:10:48.399 April 1st is the start of the fiscal new year. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:51.299 So it made sense that way. But when I started, 00:10:51.379 --> 00:10:54.620 I thought this would be a slam dunk, six months, 00:10:54.779 --> 00:10:57.539 because there's already proven track records. 00:10:57.600 --> 00:10:59.960 It goes out there, municipalities banding together. 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:02.919 There's a proven track record of capital markets 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:06.460 accepting a pool of local governments to borrow. 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:09.039 And they borrow close to the same rate as the 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:11.799 province of Ontario. So how could it be difficult? 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:17.179 Well, my first eye -opening moment was that even 00:11:17.179 --> 00:11:19.679 though First Nations saw themselves as a level 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:22.659 of government, the bureaucrats in Canada did 00:11:22.659 --> 00:11:25.720 not always see that way. They would write checks 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.899 to the chief and council, spend it on this program, 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:31.019 social needs, spend it on this program, medical, 00:11:31.139 --> 00:11:33.179 spend it on this program, health, spend it on 00:11:33.179 --> 00:11:36.419 governance within your administration. And then 00:11:36.419 --> 00:11:38.679 they expect reports back. They were programs. 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.120 The challenge to turn the bureaucratic mindset 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:47.259 from seeing First Nations as a program into a 00:11:47.259 --> 00:11:49.039 level of government and give them the respect 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:52.100 they needed was challenge number one. And all 00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:53.700 of a sudden, I realized six months ain't going 00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:56.320 to happen anymore. It is not going to be a slam 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:59.279 dunk. It's going to be a battle. So I spent the 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.379 first year from 2008 to almost the end of 2009 00:12:02.379 --> 00:12:06.159 trying to convince the bureaucracy that First 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.659 Nations should be respected as a level of government 00:12:08.659 --> 00:12:11.960 and failed. So if you fail, you can either turn 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:14.320 around and run away or you can take a different 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:17.539 approach. And I took a different approach and 00:12:17.539 --> 00:12:19.480 I said, if you can't convince the bureaucracy, 00:12:19.899 --> 00:12:22.700 then get somebody else to convince the bureaucracy. 00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:27.100 So in 2009 and 10, I started going out to the 00:12:27.100 --> 00:12:30.340 credit rating agencies, Moody's, Standard & Poor's. 00:12:30.460 --> 00:12:33.659 I started going out to the investors, life insurance 00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:36.679 companies, provincial pension plans, capital 00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:39.899 markets. players that lend monies to other levels 00:12:39.899 --> 00:12:42.379 of government and said, if I can get a credit 00:12:42.379 --> 00:12:45.059 rating that allows access to the capital markets, 00:12:45.299 --> 00:12:48.159 will you deem First Nations to be a level of 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.940 government? And they all said yes. And they wrote 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:54.460 letters of support for that. So once I had that, 00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:57.120 I thought, okay, how do we leverage these letters 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.519 of support into turning the bureaucratic tide 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:03.980 in favor of respecting them as a nation and as 00:13:03.980 --> 00:13:06.519 a level of government? Luckily, there was a gentleman 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:10.970 MP, in the Chilliwack area, Chuck Strahl, who 00:13:10.970 --> 00:13:12.909 said, I will stand up in the House of Commons 00:13:12.909 --> 00:13:16.649 and I will support the creation of a second act 00:13:16.649 --> 00:13:19.970 that focuses on First Nations being able to leverage 00:13:19.970 --> 00:13:23.090 their own source revenues into the capital markets 00:13:23.090 --> 00:13:26.750 as a level of government. And I will put my hand 00:13:26.750 --> 00:13:30.149 up and put a motion forward. And it passed. Conservative 00:13:30.149 --> 00:13:33.210 government at that time in Canada. So with that 00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:37.529 one MP support. We were able to create a second 00:13:37.529 --> 00:13:40.389 act under which we now manage our operations. 00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:44.509 And it also created the path for rating agencies 00:13:44.509 --> 00:13:46.330 to say, we will give you the credit ratings to 00:13:46.330 --> 00:13:49.029 access the market. The investor says, we're sitting 00:13:49.029 --> 00:13:51.769 there waiting to lend you the monies as First 00:13:51.769 --> 00:13:54.970 Nations request it. And the bureaucracy said, 00:13:55.129 --> 00:13:57.549 we've got orders from the political side to now 00:13:57.549 --> 00:13:59.409 treat them as a level of government. And the 00:13:59.409 --> 00:14:04.080 path was created. Well thought. Yeah, no, it's 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.100 a great story, but it still was a little bit 00:14:06.100 --> 00:14:09.080 longer before you could raise your first debenture. 00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:12.679 And so there must have been more trials. It was 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:15.740 not six months, but maybe six years from the 00:14:15.740 --> 00:14:19.100 time you joined to get that first financing. 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.379 Yeah, so the second act came into force in November 00:14:22.379 --> 00:14:26.299 of 2011. And that's the time you just interviewed 00:14:26.299 --> 00:14:29.399 Ernie Daniels, our CEO and president. That time 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.419 Ernie was hired. when our second act was created, 00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:36.200 because even though I could create the road of 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:39.059 which First Nations go down to go access low 00:14:39.059 --> 00:14:41.620 rate loans. And to give you an example today, 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.779 chartered bank crime in Canada is 6 .45%, 6 .45, 00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:50.259 almost six and a half. Our lending rate is 3 00:14:50.259 --> 00:14:53.600 .95, two and a half percent below bank crime. 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:57.179 So you can see, if you were simply doing it on 00:14:57.179 --> 00:15:00.210 mathematics, you'd say, Absolutely, I'm going 00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:02.230 down that path. Why would I not? Because every 00:15:02.230 --> 00:15:03.889 return on investment is going to be that much 00:15:03.889 --> 00:15:07.250 higher. But what I didn't understand was the 00:15:07.250 --> 00:15:10.570 history of First Nations and how they were used 00:15:10.570 --> 00:15:13.809 to knocking on Canada's door to try to access 00:15:13.809 --> 00:15:18.710 funding every year. They were completely overloaded 00:15:18.710 --> 00:15:21.730 with the reports that they had to complete on 00:15:21.730 --> 00:15:24.669 the program monies they received. And an education 00:15:24.669 --> 00:15:27.370 was needed for them to understand what the capital 00:15:27.370 --> 00:15:30.779 markets were. what is a debenture, et cetera. 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:36.559 So I did not have the trust or even the knowledge 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:38.779 of what First Nations, how they operated, and 00:15:38.779 --> 00:15:40.460 they didn't have the knowledge or trust of how 00:15:40.460 --> 00:15:45.559 I operated. So Ernie and I symbiotically complemented 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.360 each other very well because if you listen to 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:51.600 his podcast, you'll find out his history is in 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.960 different areas of First Nations departments, 00:15:55.299 --> 00:15:57.299 not departments, but organizations that have 00:15:57.299 --> 00:16:01.679 created a good comfort level with his name and 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.980 what he's done over the period of time. So when 00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:07.559 we would go present together to First Nation 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.419 communities, I could tell them about what the 00:16:10.419 --> 00:16:12.960 economic opportunity or mathematical advantage 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.779 was to join an FNFA. He could then tell them 00:16:17.779 --> 00:16:20.539 about the comfort level of why they should take 00:16:20.539 --> 00:16:23.139 a risk of joining with us and taking a new path. 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:26.519 So it wasn't just creating the path, but it was 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.899 also creating their understanding, their trust, 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.159 and their comfort that they would take a risk 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:36.320 of going with us. And in 2012, June of 2012, 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.759 our first loan went out the door. But it took 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.000 two years to get our second and third and fourth 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.179 and enough loans out the door that they accumulated 00:16:44.179 --> 00:16:47.519 to a large enough amount that in June of 2014, 00:16:47.820 --> 00:16:49.940 we could turn those short -term loans into a 00:16:49.940 --> 00:16:54.139 debenture. So it took a while, but trust and 00:16:54.139 --> 00:16:56.860 comfort of the communities was the key pivot 00:16:56.860 --> 00:17:00.480 that allowed us to succeed. And it seems to have 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.039 snowballed from there 10 years after that first 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:08.170 debenture. 10, is it? Vouchers have been issued, 00:17:08.269 --> 00:17:11.930 more than $2 billion raised. Maybe just some 00:17:11.930 --> 00:17:14.150 highlights for the past year would be helpful. 00:17:14.210 --> 00:17:17.029 What sorts of investments have you made? Yeah, 00:17:17.049 --> 00:17:19.009 I know Ernie talked about what reconciliation 00:17:19.009 --> 00:17:22.029 means now. You know, you have Canada and certain 00:17:22.029 --> 00:17:24.670 provinces have passed UNDRIP, United Nations 00:17:24.670 --> 00:17:26.829 Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. 00:17:27.210 --> 00:17:29.450 That's a piece of paper, and it allows you to 00:17:29.450 --> 00:17:31.349 shake hands, take pictures, and everybody feels 00:17:31.349 --> 00:17:33.900 good about themselves. but it doesn't create 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:36.259 those missing dollars under your budget as a 00:17:36.259 --> 00:17:38.920 First Nation community to operate your programs. 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:41.460 You need more than just a handshake and a photo 00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:44.140 opportunity. So when economic reconciliation 00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:47.380 started transitioning both in the public eye 00:17:47.380 --> 00:17:49.759 and the government eye at the federal and provincial 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.180 level into economic reconciliation, we finally 00:17:53.180 --> 00:17:56.759 had opportunities to start looking at not just 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.640 funding infrastructure, which is needed to make 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:01.720 communities healthy, but it doesn't always allow 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.200 growth. And that doesn't allow profits to come 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:09.380 in. So 2021 was the first time that FNFA, we 00:18:09.380 --> 00:18:12.440 took a risk. Ernie and I sat down and we were 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:15.259 knocked on the door by seven Mi 'kmaq communities 00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:18.240 in the Atlantic Canada. They wanted to be 50 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:22.299 % owners of seafood or Clearwater seafoods. Never 00:18:22.299 --> 00:18:25.319 happened before. Two things, we'd never had a 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.099 group of First Nations wanting to work together 00:18:27.099 --> 00:18:30.859 on an economic venture. And we'd never lent $250 00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:33.359 million, a large size for us at that time in 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.660 2021, to take a risk that wasn't infrastructure, 00:18:36.940 --> 00:18:39.920 but it was business related. And that led into 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.359 hiring outside legal counsels, doing due diligence 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.240 on the financial economic side, taking a look 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.720 at the capital markets reports on whether Clearwater 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.519 Seafoods was a well -run company. What was the 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:55.119 capacity for the market to absorb the certain 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.119 amount of seafood? or harvest that the company 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:02.880 had. But in January of 2021, after lengthy discussions 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.680 with those seven communities and our board of 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:07.339 directors, we put our thumbs up and said, let's 00:19:07.339 --> 00:19:11.839 fund this opportunity. That transitioned us into 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:14.420 knocking on investors' doors and said, we're 00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:16.460 raising money for infrastructure. Here's a picture 00:19:16.460 --> 00:19:18.559 of a building. Here's a picture of a water system. 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:21.799 Here's a picture of housing into a picture of 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:24.519 business. And it allowed something else to come 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:27.519 out. Mark and Robert, because for the first time, 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:29.940 we started realizing we need to do communications 00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:33.660 on what we do. It's no longer a picture. We need 00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:36.380 to do testimonials of what the impact of these 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:38.900 economic ventures are to the communities. What 00:19:38.900 --> 00:19:41.720 is a human story? What did chief and council 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:44.200 do with the profits that Canada had not fulfilled 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:46.500 under their obligation for infrastructure creation? 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.880 Sometimes we would do videos. And by doing that, 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.319 when we sat down with investors in Canada, US, 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.680 Europe, Asia, all of a sudden, it wasn't so much 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.039 the dollar size that mattered anymore. 250 million, 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:04.279 that's fine. Now we're doing 500 million. This 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:06.880 year, we're going to do 1 .2 billion in 2024. 00:20:07.539 --> 00:20:11.099 It became the story because as we were transitioning 00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:14.059 from infrastructure to economic reconciliation 00:20:14.059 --> 00:20:17.279 ventures, investors out there were transitioning 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.480 to social investing. What is our money doing 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:24.039 when we lend it? Is it causing harm? Or is it 00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:26.779 causing good? And so when we would sit down, 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:28.940 Ernie and I, with the investors and show them 00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:31.759 the videos and show them the human side of the 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:34.539 story, all of a sudden you started seeing our 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:38.180 ability to raise the money needed by our membership 00:20:38.180 --> 00:20:41.420 grew substantially. Our largest client, as you 00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:48.019 know, is a 50 .1 % owner of Cedar LNG. $1 .4 00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:50.539 billion, our board approved for that project. 00:20:51.849 --> 00:20:55.029 We were fortunate that as we were changing, the 00:20:55.029 --> 00:20:57.849 people that invested in us were changing also. 00:20:58.250 --> 00:21:01.329 And so going forward, you're going to see economic 00:21:01.329 --> 00:21:03.690 ventures increase in size. You're going to see 00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:05.950 First Nations that can't do economic ventures 00:21:05.950 --> 00:21:08.630 individually will partner with others. But the 00:21:08.630 --> 00:21:10.670 good thing about that, that means that nobody 00:21:10.670 --> 00:21:13.549 is left behind. And no matter what size First 00:21:13.549 --> 00:21:16.769 Nation you are, what your capacity is internally, 00:21:17.349 --> 00:21:19.589 you're going to have opportunities to have profits 00:21:19.589 --> 00:21:21.829 to come in and make those community priorities 00:21:21.829 --> 00:21:25.710 a reality, which they weren't 10 years ago. That's 00:21:25.710 --> 00:21:29.190 great. You mentioned nations of different sizes. 00:21:29.650 --> 00:21:34.130 Ernie told us almost 170 borrowing members at 00:21:34.130 --> 00:21:36.549 the moment, and so First Nations of different 00:21:36.549 --> 00:21:39.829 shapes and sizes. I take it it's not just then 00:21:39.829 --> 00:21:43.509 wealthy First Nations that are able to take advantage 00:21:43.509 --> 00:21:46.210 of some of the funding that FNFA can provide? 00:21:46.730 --> 00:21:49.130 No, you know, if we could only fund wealthy, 00:21:49.269 --> 00:21:51.789 creating the have communities economically and 00:21:51.789 --> 00:21:53.910 the have not communities economically. So the 00:21:53.910 --> 00:21:56.309 model that was created that I spent three and 00:21:56.309 --> 00:21:58.230 a half years trying to get the legislation through 00:21:58.230 --> 00:22:02.009 didn't differentiate between size or capacity. 00:22:02.150 --> 00:22:05.190 And just like you would drive through the province 00:22:05.190 --> 00:22:07.670 from which we situated, we're on West Bank, First 00:22:07.670 --> 00:22:10.589 Nation lands our office. But the province of 00:22:10.589 --> 00:22:13.430 BC has communities that have 300 people and the 00:22:13.430 --> 00:22:15.349 greater Vancouver that has 3 million people. 00:22:16.109 --> 00:22:19.109 but each one of them have needs. In First Nations, 00:22:19.210 --> 00:22:21.890 you can have a community that has 210 members, 00:22:22.069 --> 00:22:24.329 and you can have some that have 13 ,000 members, 00:22:24.490 --> 00:22:27.410 but they all have needs. So the model that was 00:22:27.410 --> 00:22:30.950 created didn't differentiate between size or 00:22:30.950 --> 00:22:34.769 needs. What it did say was for every First Nation 00:22:34.769 --> 00:22:37.589 that joins FNFA, and we'll go back through the 00:22:37.589 --> 00:22:40.549 numbers, there are 634 First Nations across Canada, 00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:44.789 367. have put up their hands voluntarily and 00:22:44.789 --> 00:22:47.369 said they'd like to be added to the Act. So over 00:22:47.369 --> 00:22:52.329 almost 60 % in Canada. 190 of those 367 have 00:22:52.329 --> 00:22:54.690 completed the full process for FNFA membership. 00:22:55.450 --> 00:22:58.309 So we're at about one -third of the communities 00:22:58.309 --> 00:23:01.470 in Canada. Our first adventure in 2014, we had 00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:04.890 13 members. So we've gone from 13 up substantially, 00:23:05.190 --> 00:23:09.509 and it'll continue to grow. But when we created 00:23:09.509 --> 00:23:12.940 the model, it's just like you can go, and show 00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:15.720 the bank what you have as a salary. And they 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:17.660 will do two things. They will give you a credit 00:23:17.660 --> 00:23:20.160 card with a certain limit based upon your ability 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:22.440 to pay. And they will give you a mortgage or 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:24.299 a line of credit up to a certain limit based 00:23:24.299 --> 00:23:28.240 upon your ability to pay. So our model goes upon 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.339 what can a community afford to pay so we're not 00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:35.220 doing harm? What revenue streams do they have 00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:38.039 that can support that loan? and make sure when 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:40.680 we lend, we're not causing those revenue streams 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.299 to go from a surplus situation on their audited 00:23:43.299 --> 00:23:46.240 statements to a deficit situation. And it doesn't 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.700 matter whether your capacity to borrow is a million 00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:52.779 dollars or $500 million. And I say 500 because 00:23:52.779 --> 00:23:55.259 our largest client right now has $500 million 00:23:55.259 --> 00:23:59.140 outstanding by themselves. So it's meant to allow 00:23:59.140 --> 00:24:02.220 communities to grow at their own pace, in a safe 00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:05.480 way, at their own timing. but not in a way that's 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:07.819 going to overload them with debt that will harm 00:24:07.819 --> 00:24:10.339 their bottom line. Can you talk a little bit 00:24:10.339 --> 00:24:13.559 about, you mentioned some of the social investors 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:17.640 in ESG. Do you have those types of funds or sustainability 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:22.559 funds invested or lending to you buying the debentures? 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.480 Does every investment you make have to pass a 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:31.660 sustainability test? And maybe... Are there any 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:34.140 sectors that you just won't invest in because 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:36.740 of some of that criteria? Robert, great question. 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:40.579 You know, well, seven years ago when ESG and 00:24:40.579 --> 00:24:42.940 social investing came along, I had no idea whether 00:24:42.940 --> 00:24:45.359 it was going to be a flavor of the day or whether 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.279 it was going to persist and grow. Certain parts 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:50.819 of the world, it's more formalized than it is 00:24:50.819 --> 00:24:53.779 within Canada. Europe, for example, is very formulaic, 00:24:53.799 --> 00:24:56.259 which could be a good thing. In Canada, it's 00:24:56.259 --> 00:24:59.920 more individual by investor. What are their policies? 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:01.579 What's their checklist? What do they look for? 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:04.480 When I started putting together the ESG, the 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:07.559 first step was to gather information from our 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:10.099 First Nation members on what projects they were 00:25:10.099 --> 00:25:12.019 having come up, because we're already funded 00:25:12.019 --> 00:25:14.279 the ones they had, but what was coming up? And 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.640 then once we had that, Ernie and I created a 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:20.119 board retreat. We have 11 board members from 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:23.380 BC all the way to the east coast of Canada in 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:26.089 Nova Scotia. And we started talking about how 00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:28.470 there was a changing landscape of what investors 00:25:28.470 --> 00:25:30.910 were looking for, because we compete with monies. 00:25:31.150 --> 00:25:33.529 We compete with the cities. We compete with the 00:25:33.529 --> 00:25:36.589 provinces. And if we can't compete, then the 00:25:36.589 --> 00:25:38.930 investors are going to fund them, but not us. 00:25:39.170 --> 00:25:42.490 And the chairman of FNFA put up his hand. He 00:25:42.490 --> 00:25:44.990 said, Steve, and his name is Warren Tobogganong 00:25:44.990 --> 00:25:48.109 from Wasauksing First Nation in Ontario. He said, 00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:51.890 did you know that most First Nations have a constitution 00:25:51.890 --> 00:25:56.059 or a land code? that identifies that chief and 00:25:56.059 --> 00:25:59.839 council can't borrow if it's going to cause harm 00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:02.839 to the air, land or water. And I've been here 00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:07.420 for over 10 years and I had no idea. I probably 00:26:07.420 --> 00:26:09.539 had never looked at a constitution or a land 00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:13.059 code. But when we started going through it, and 00:26:13.059 --> 00:26:14.700 then we found that the deputy chair said, well, 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.460 we have one too, but we call it a land code, 00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:20.440 not a constitution. It started to show that ingrained 00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:24.170 in First Nations. chiefs and councils, communities, 00:26:24.369 --> 00:26:27.910 and limitations on what they can ask for is the 00:26:27.910 --> 00:26:30.210 very ESG components that investors are looking 00:26:30.210 --> 00:26:33.210 for. It just wasn't formalized. It was formalized 00:26:33.210 --> 00:26:36.349 at their community level, but cities of Ottawa, 00:26:36.509 --> 00:26:39.630 capital of Canada, may have a policy that they 00:26:39.630 --> 00:26:43.089 want to do a green bond, but I don't think they 00:26:43.089 --> 00:26:45.269 have something that formulates it in a constitution 00:26:45.269 --> 00:26:48.670 like our membership. So we have not to date. 00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:51.910 gone and got a third -party opinion on what our 00:26:51.910 --> 00:26:54.750 lending practices are, whether it meets ESG or 00:26:54.750 --> 00:26:58.450 sustainable or social bond qualities. But what 00:26:58.450 --> 00:27:00.910 we do do is make transparent to each investor 00:27:00.910 --> 00:27:04.269 the access to the constitution or land code of 00:27:04.269 --> 00:27:06.430 the communities that are boring. We show the 00:27:06.430 --> 00:27:09.349 projects that they're boring for, the impact 00:27:09.349 --> 00:27:12.890 on the community, job creation, and basically 00:27:12.890 --> 00:27:15.470 how it's going to transition that community from 00:27:15.470 --> 00:27:19.680 point A to point B. And then we let each investor 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.920 decide whether it meets their checklist or not. 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:24.279 We do do something different with Bloomberg, 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:27.599 though. When Bloomberg puts our debenture issuance 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:29.900 information up on their screen, they go through 00:27:29.900 --> 00:27:32.200 a checklist with us through every loan that we 00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:35.140 make for that particular debenture. And today 00:27:35.140 --> 00:27:37.019 we've been successful to get the sustainability 00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:40.539 tag. So no formalization of a third party opinion, 00:27:40.819 --> 00:27:43.759 but we do go through the Bloomberg process to 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:46.019 make sure it's deemed sustainable on their informational 00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:50.349 site. Wow, that speaks volumes. Yeah, it's a 00:27:50.349 --> 00:27:54.190 unique setup, but perhaps in some way it keeps 00:27:54.190 --> 00:27:58.150 FNFA from shifting because we are not in charge 00:27:58.150 --> 00:28:01.210 of changing land codes or constitutions at the 00:28:01.210 --> 00:28:04.130 community level. It's ingrained for them, so 00:28:04.130 --> 00:28:08.369 that limits us into certain areas. So what can 00:28:08.369 --> 00:28:11.660 we not do? Well, we won't get into certain areas. 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:13.960 I'd be very surprised if we were going into areas 00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:16.799 of gun manufacturing, cigarette manufacturing, 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:21.240 those areas that are deemed to be offside. You 00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:22.839 know, there's always going to be investors that 00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:25.299 will buy it. But because we borrow as a group, 00:28:25.460 --> 00:28:28.900 we have to make sure that letting anyone loan 00:28:28.900 --> 00:28:31.900 in does not harm the group itself. And does that 00:28:31.900 --> 00:28:34.519 go for the pooled revenues as well that are in 00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:37.059 the... In the pool, are there restrictions on 00:28:37.059 --> 00:28:39.460 what types of revenues will be allowed to back? 00:28:39.859 --> 00:28:43.059 Yeah, so the revenues were a key part of getting 00:28:43.059 --> 00:28:45.980 the second act, which I worked on together. Because, 00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.079 you know, you can accept First Nations level 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:51.019 of government. Okay, that's fine. That's a respect 00:28:51.019 --> 00:28:55.480 level. But the second thing is, what's safe to 00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:57.240 lend them money? Will it come back in the form 00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.319 of loan service payments every six months to 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:03.690 the investors? So the second act. said a couple 00:29:03.690 --> 00:29:06.289 of things. It said that if a First Nation is 00:29:06.289 --> 00:29:09.670 going to join FNFA and request the loan, then 00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:13.390 FNFA is obligated to take a look into the stability, 00:29:13.890 --> 00:29:16.630 the strength, and the consistency of the revenue 00:29:16.630 --> 00:29:19.670 stream. So we do a due diligence on that. And 00:29:19.670 --> 00:29:21.930 if you see a revenue stream that fluctuates up 00:29:21.930 --> 00:29:26.150 and down and perhaps cannot service loans consistently 00:29:26.150 --> 00:29:29.160 every six months, You either add a second stream 00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:31.720 to it to make it safe or that stream is not viable 00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:34.440 for loan service. And then the act did a second 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.759 thing. I put in there something that Ernie mentioned 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:40.759 called a revenue intercept model. So keep in 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.480 mind, if you remember what 2008 and 2009, where 00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:46.279 it was a housing crash in the US and building 00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:49.559 an act to try to get capital market acceptance 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.039 during that period of time, you had to create 00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:56.970 comfort levels and safeguards. So Revenue Intercept 00:29:56.970 --> 00:30:01.210 is a First Nation, if they join FNFA and they 00:30:01.210 --> 00:30:04.569 want to take out a loan or request a loan, then 00:30:04.569 --> 00:30:06.690 they take a look at the revenue agreements they 00:30:06.690 --> 00:30:08.430 have. And every First Nation have revenue agreements 00:30:08.430 --> 00:30:11.190 with the province in which they reside. And those 00:30:11.190 --> 00:30:13.970 are strong, consistent, stable revenue streams. 00:30:14.369 --> 00:30:16.750 But chief and council, when they want to take 00:30:16.750 --> 00:30:19.289 out a loan, send to the province what's called 00:30:19.289 --> 00:30:22.470 a redirection letter. And they said, province, 00:30:22.710 --> 00:30:25.109 you used to send that money to our bank account. 00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:27.119 We're now going to take out a loan with FNFA. 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.900 Please redirect it to FNFA's trust account. And 00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:32.960 those trust accounts have a very simple job. 00:30:33.019 --> 00:30:35.099 They're a clearing account. Pay FNFA the loan 00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:37.640 service. And two days later, when all the money 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:40.059 clears, give the balance back to chief and council 00:30:40.059 --> 00:30:42.900 to spend on their community. So the revenue streams 00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:47.640 are absolutely key to how we lend. And if they 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:50.359 do not meet the stability, strength, and consistency 00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:53.339 tests, they cannot support a loan by themselves. 00:30:53.900 --> 00:30:56.519 maybe together with another stream. When we got 00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.660 into economic reconciliation, all of a sudden 00:30:59.660 --> 00:31:01.859 we started adding the second level of streams. 00:31:02.539 --> 00:31:06.119 And that was future agreements with potential 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.980 projects. You could have provincial hydro agreements 00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:12.059 that are under our purchase agreement. And those 00:31:12.059 --> 00:31:14.220 are contracts, so we could lend against those. 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:17.220 You can have transmission line agreements with 00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:20.720 a province. You can start having certain companies 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:24.019 whose strength of operations meet capital market 00:31:24.019 --> 00:31:26.119 tests. In other words, the credit departments 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:29.619 of the banks would lend to them also. So we are 00:31:29.619 --> 00:31:32.039 absolutely focused on the strength of the revenue 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:34.920 stream. Because as Ernie mentioned, we don't 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:36.660 just make a loan to a community, we borrow as 00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:41.680 a group. And the group is 190 First Nations within 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:45.339 FNFA that said we all stand behind each other's 00:31:45.339 --> 00:31:49.339 loan. And the last check is Our board of directors 00:31:49.339 --> 00:31:53.480 from BC to Nova Scotia have to be unanimous in 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:55.799 accepting a loan request. So they take a look 00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:57.599 at the strength of the revenue stream. They take 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.500 a look at its sufficiency to cover loan service. 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:03.359 They take a look at the project, the impact on 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.880 the community. They take a look at, does a revenue 00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:09.099 stream exist as long as a loan service term? 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:12.579 And if any one of them is uncomfortable, loans 00:32:12.579 --> 00:32:17.190 don't occur. So to date, We have had zero late 00:32:17.190 --> 00:32:19.710 payments. We've had zero losses. But it's all 00:32:19.710 --> 00:32:21.869 because of the process set up to make sure if 00:32:21.869 --> 00:32:23.369 you're going to borrow as a group, you protect 00:32:23.369 --> 00:32:25.490 everybody within the group. So the revenue streams 00:32:25.490 --> 00:32:28.750 are absolutely key and essential focus for us 00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:31.349 for each loan. In your governance structure, 00:32:31.509 --> 00:32:34.109 the board is made up of just two representatives 00:32:34.109 --> 00:32:38.130 of the members, correct? There's no outsiders 00:32:38.130 --> 00:32:41.329 or even management on the board and the board 00:32:41.329 --> 00:32:46.059 reviews every single loan proposal? Absolutely. 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:49.180 So in order for a joint several group to mean 00:32:49.180 --> 00:32:51.160 anything, which means one for all, all for one, 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.000 you have to make the decision makers request 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:56.259 in the loan have to be able to speak on behalf 00:32:56.259 --> 00:32:59.059 of their community. So who speaks on behalf of 00:32:59.059 --> 00:33:01.980 the community? Elected chiefs and elected councillors. 00:33:02.539 --> 00:33:06.500 So our 11 board members are either chiefs or 00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:08.619 councillors from amongst our membership. And 00:33:08.619 --> 00:33:12.119 every July we have an AGM and every July the 00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:14.720 membership. votes on who they would like to represent 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.839 them for the next 12 months. So you have to be 00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:20.019 a chief and you have to be a councillor so that 00:33:20.019 --> 00:33:22.480 it means you do speak on behalf of your community 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.500 and therefore you also speak on behalf of the 00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:30.059 190 FNFA members. We cannot have anybody outside 00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:32.759 because if a problem developed, you'd say that 00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:34.799 one board member who's not a chief or a councillor 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.980 said, well, I don't have any skin in the game. 00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:39.990 I am not a chief. I'm not a councillor. I can't 00:33:39.990 --> 00:33:42.609 bind my community to this problem, so it doesn't 00:33:42.609 --> 00:33:47.130 impact me. So the rating agencies made it very 00:33:47.130 --> 00:33:49.369 clear, and I agreed with them, that if you're 00:33:49.369 --> 00:33:52.049 going to borrow large sums of money, then the 00:33:52.049 --> 00:33:54.890 people that should be on the board deciding whether 00:33:54.890 --> 00:33:57.329 that loan occurs or not occurred are ones that 00:33:57.329 --> 00:34:00.730 are impacted by the decision -making, and therefore 00:34:00.730 --> 00:34:03.170 it is a chief or it is a councillor from amongst 00:34:03.170 --> 00:34:06.759 our membership. Impressive. Maybe, Steve, it'd 00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:09.219 be worth talking. We had Chief Crystal Smith 00:34:09.219 --> 00:34:12.519 on the podcast a few weeks ago. She was very 00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:16.079 complimentary of your role in the F &FA's role 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:21.019 in financing, helping finance Cedar LNG. Could 00:34:21.019 --> 00:34:23.440 you tell us a little bit about how that transaction 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:28.239 evolved and closed earlier this year? Ah, Cedar 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.900 LNG is one of the reasons why transitioning out 00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:33.119 of accounting. where you go home at the end of 00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.019 the day and you talk to your family about, oh, 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:36.659 guess what I did today? I audited this and nobody 00:34:36.659 --> 00:34:40.500 listens to you. Into financing projects that 00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:43.900 have absolutely material beneficial impacts on 00:34:43.900 --> 00:34:49.000 community life. Love it. So Cedar LNG is a prime 00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:54.679 example of how Canada is 4 ,000 miles long, probably 00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:58.219 6 ,000 from coast to coast. And each geographical 00:34:58.219 --> 00:35:01.360 area or province within Canada has different 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:03.900 opportunities for the First Nations in that area. 00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:07.280 So you go to the East Coast, they're business 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:09.239 -related opportunities. That's why they work 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:11.800 as groups. You go into central Canada, Quebec 00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:14.679 and Ontario, and they focus on electricity generation. 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:18.000 It could be through wind farms. It could be through 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:20.559 solar. It could be through transmission lines. 00:35:21.179 --> 00:35:24.119 You go into the prairies, and they have different 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:26.099 opportunities there. And then you get into B 00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:29.500 .C. And Cedar LNG is on the west coast of BC 00:35:29.500 --> 00:35:33.000 in a community called Haisla First Nation, who 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.440 spent years working on this long before I came 00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:37.619 along. So the hard work was done prior to me 00:35:37.619 --> 00:35:39.340 getting involved in the financial side and Ernie 00:35:39.340 --> 00:35:41.840 getting involved in the financial side. But in 00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:46.940 BC, a lot of projects are resource -based. Some 00:35:46.940 --> 00:35:49.659 are continuing to be opportunities for electrical 00:35:49.659 --> 00:35:55.719 power generation. But LNG is what we have. in 00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.039 BC and sometimes in Alberta that crosses the 00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:01.039 BC lands. But the key thing is you have this 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.780 massive population in Asia. And this massive 00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:06.420 population is transitioning very quickly from 00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:10.480 rural to urban environments for jobs, for a change 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:13.760 of lifestyle. But how do you create electricity 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:16.380 for them over in Asia? A lot of it's coal -based 00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:19.579 still. Coal is not a great thing for the global 00:36:19.579 --> 00:36:23.860 environment. And so transition away from coal 00:36:23.860 --> 00:36:27.110 into LNG, which may not be the ultimate place 00:36:27.110 --> 00:36:29.289 you want to get to because it is still a fossil 00:36:29.289 --> 00:36:32.670 fuel, but it's a lot cleaner, is what the opportunity 00:36:32.670 --> 00:36:37.130 was. When we got contacted by Haisla First Nation, 00:36:37.429 --> 00:36:39.409 you know, the first thing they threw out was, 00:36:39.449 --> 00:36:41.570 you know, it's potentially up to $1 .4 billion. 00:36:42.489 --> 00:36:47.309 Our largest loan to that time to any one community 00:36:47.309 --> 00:36:50.750 was $350 million. And so we had a factor going 00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:55.260 up four times. And it completely changed. how 00:36:55.260 --> 00:36:58.699 we did our analysis within FNFA because we had 00:36:58.699 --> 00:37:00.860 a board of directors that was used to certain 00:37:00.860 --> 00:37:03.519 business opportunities, certain infrastructure 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:06.800 needs. But when we got into something that large 00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.039 and a construction term of four and a half years, 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:12.539 it completely rewrote how we did our analysis, 00:37:12.659 --> 00:37:15.900 started looking at getting lawyers that were 00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:19.739 familiar with these type of ventures. We started 00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:22.019 working with our banking syndicate, the Chartered 00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:24.539 Banks Capital. Capital Markets Division of the 00:37:24.539 --> 00:37:27.559 Chartered Banks to find out their reports. We 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.420 took a look at the private sector side and we 00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:34.199 piggybacked on their data profiles or pages within 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.780 the data room and the information and the forecast. 00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:41.099 But what it did do is it got our board comfortable 00:37:41.099 --> 00:37:43.739 after six months of discussing it and going back 00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:46.659 and get more information, more information, that 00:37:46.659 --> 00:37:50.039 we've developed a process that now allows future 00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:53.900 opportunities that come forward. to be much more 00:37:53.900 --> 00:37:57.559 smooth -lined and much more what you would call 00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:00.579 a transition from where their former needs were 00:38:00.579 --> 00:38:02.699 infrastructure into large -scale opportunities. 00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:08.300 So our board had to transition too. And you can 00:38:08.300 --> 00:38:10.880 go back and say we're a joint several group where 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:13.599 you protect each other within the pool, and all 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:14.800 of a sudden you're going to have one community 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:16.900 that's going to have a materially larger loan 00:38:16.900 --> 00:38:20.300 than anybody else within the pool. Two things 00:38:20.300 --> 00:38:23.119 came out of it. One, FNFA transitioned itself, 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:25.820 which was really needed because economic reconciliation, 00:38:25.820 --> 00:38:28.679 we have to grow as our clients grow and change. 00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:32.340 And second of all, our board has now transitioned 00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:35.880 into a business evaluation board. And that means 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:39.139 that as opportunities come down in different 00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:41.219 parts of Canada, which is why we have board members 00:38:41.219 --> 00:38:44.099 from BC on the West Coast to Nova Scotia on the 00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:46.880 East Coast. they are usually familiar with the 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:49.179 opportunities within their geographical area 00:38:49.179 --> 00:38:52.420 themselves. Sometimes they're familiar with looking 00:38:52.420 --> 00:38:54.380 at the contracts the lawyers put in front of 00:38:54.380 --> 00:38:56.599 them and say, we have a similar agreement, different 00:38:56.599 --> 00:38:59.280 in size, but we have a similar agreement. We 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.340 see the safeguards. We see the shareholder agreement 00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:05.179 points. We see what protects the communities, 00:39:05.380 --> 00:39:08.440 et cetera, et cetera. And it has allowed us to 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:11.679 grow. So going forward. If economic reconciliation 00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:15.659 is a way for First Nations to get profit, to 00:39:15.659 --> 00:39:18.119 close the funding gap on their programs, we had 00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:20.539 to transition to be ready for it. And luckily, 00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:23.860 that one project pushed us into that area. So 00:39:23.860 --> 00:39:26.019 we're good to go for the forward as growth and 00:39:26.019 --> 00:39:28.820 opportunities go as well. Fantastic. In the end, 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:32.260 I don't think you did the full 1 .4, but what's 00:39:32.260 --> 00:39:36.010 your piece of that? So we actually did do, we 00:39:36.010 --> 00:39:38.969 are, sorry, we did approve the 1 .4, but because 00:39:38.969 --> 00:39:42.130 it's a construction project, we have 250 million 00:39:42.130 --> 00:39:46.170 has gone out so far. In the first two quarters 00:39:46.170 --> 00:39:49.429 of 2025, another drawdown will happen. So the 00:39:49.429 --> 00:39:51.250 money's being drawn down, same as you would draw 00:39:51.250 --> 00:39:52.989 it online to credit as you build your house, 00:39:53.030 --> 00:39:56.510 pay the architect, pay the contractor, et cetera. 00:39:56.789 --> 00:39:59.929 We are having the heist that draw down the monies 00:39:59.929 --> 00:40:04.389 as their needs to fund construction occur. And 00:40:04.389 --> 00:40:07.349 under that, something else transitioned. So if 00:40:07.349 --> 00:40:09.610 you took a look at our debentures to date, and 00:40:09.610 --> 00:40:11.429 Ernie mentioned we've done 11, they were all 00:40:11.429 --> 00:40:13.829 10 -year debentures. Even though our clients 00:40:13.829 --> 00:40:16.030 had the right to repay over 30 years, we would 00:40:16.030 --> 00:40:18.849 lock in interest for 10 years and then refinance. 00:40:19.090 --> 00:40:22.590 And the reason for that was our debentures weren't 00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:25.030 large enough to say, some of our clients have 00:40:25.030 --> 00:40:26.889 a 30 -year need, so we'll do a 30 -year debenture. 00:40:27.349 --> 00:40:29.030 Some of them would only want 10 years, we'd do 00:40:29.030 --> 00:40:30.989 10 years. It would have fractured our debentures 00:40:30.989 --> 00:40:33.929 into smaller sizes. And investors would have 00:40:33.929 --> 00:40:35.750 said, I don't like the smaller sizes because 00:40:35.750 --> 00:40:37.690 they like liquidity, which is the ability to 00:40:37.690 --> 00:40:39.809 have a large debenture they can buy and sell 00:40:39.809 --> 00:40:43.909 it and find easy. What the Haisla CDR LNG 1 .4 00:40:43.909 --> 00:40:47.050 billion is going to do is contractually, it says 00:40:47.050 --> 00:40:49.429 they want not to have a 10 -year, but they want 00:40:49.429 --> 00:40:53.550 a 30 -year debenture. So that opens up our talking 00:40:53.550 --> 00:40:56.510 with investors who no longer want to fund 10 00:40:56.510 --> 00:40:58.269 years, but they love 30 years. And it could be 00:40:58.269 --> 00:41:00.909 a life insurance company. It could be a reinsurance 00:41:00.909 --> 00:41:03.400 company. There can be a pension plan that says 00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:06.199 we invest long term because our employers, some 00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:07.800 of them are going to be working here for 30 years 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:11.679 or retire for 30 years. So the Cedar LNG has 00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:14.599 not only created our opportunity to fund larger 00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.579 sizes, but it's opened our ability to converse 00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:20.679 with investors who didn't pay attention to us 00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:23.260 in the tenure area, but definitely pay attention. 00:41:23.260 --> 00:41:25.420 We start talking 30 years. So it has transitioned 00:41:25.420 --> 00:41:28.280 us into an organization that's growing where 00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:30.239 we weren't there a couple of years ago. And you 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:32.980 have investors from outside of Canada, we understand. 00:41:33.079 --> 00:41:36.059 Can you tell a little bit more about the international 00:41:36.059 --> 00:41:38.780 investor profile? Yeah, and that's something, 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.800 you know, we're very interested in exploring 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:44.559 Beacon in front of a European base because sometimes, 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.400 as I mentioned, it's the storytelling that attracts 00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:51.219 the investor base. So we have investors, and 00:41:51.219 --> 00:41:54.360 as Ernie mentioned, we can't name names, but 00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:56.579 we have a number of investors in different countries 00:41:56.579 --> 00:42:00.500 in Europe based upon the... social, and what 00:42:00.500 --> 00:42:02.460 they perceive under their checklist, the ESG 00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:05.719 lending that we do. We have a number of investors 00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:08.800 in Eastern US, and we've had that since 2014, 00:42:09.059 --> 00:42:12.099 but it's growing. And we have investors, there's 00:42:12.099 --> 00:42:15.420 a central bank in Asia, and there's also another 00:42:15.420 --> 00:42:18.960 central bank in Europe. So it's the storytelling 00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.079 that is starting to capture the interest of these 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.460 investors, because it's very repetitive. And 00:42:24.460 --> 00:42:27.750 I used to do investing at BCMFA. You know, you 00:42:27.750 --> 00:42:30.070 buy the same bonds over and over again, but it 00:42:30.070 --> 00:42:33.369 doesn't move you as an investor into that social 00:42:33.369 --> 00:42:36.550 area that you want to go. As FNFA's debentures 00:42:36.550 --> 00:42:39.730 get bigger, those investors that weren't interested 00:42:39.730 --> 00:42:41.710 when we did $100 million, but now we do $500 00:42:41.710 --> 00:42:44.210 million or this year $1 .2 billion this year, 00:42:44.329 --> 00:42:46.869 they're saying you're up to a sufficient size 00:42:46.869 --> 00:42:49.110 where we would like to participate because we 00:42:49.110 --> 00:42:53.309 also transition now into a social investing area 00:42:53.309 --> 00:42:56.110 through FNFA. So Europe is going to be a key 00:42:56.110 --> 00:42:59.030 one going forward because social ESG is a key 00:42:59.030 --> 00:43:02.269 investment criteria there. Sometimes in the US, 00:43:02.349 --> 00:43:04.909 but not always. But it's also starting to grow 00:43:04.909 --> 00:43:08.170 in Asia as the transition from coal into LNG 00:43:08.170 --> 00:43:11.730 is starting to occur. So as we grow, our investment 00:43:11.730 --> 00:43:15.530 base throughout outside of Canada is going to 00:43:15.530 --> 00:43:17.570 need to grow too. So we're excited about that 00:43:17.570 --> 00:43:19.670 because we all seem to be developing together. 00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:23.039 Well, please mark the first week of April 2025 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:26.019 in your calendar, the second annual Canadian 00:43:26.019 --> 00:43:28.360 Indigenous Investment Summit here in London. 00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.119 We would be very interested in that because I 00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:34.159 think the time is to start educating those as 00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:36.360 our needs start growing into areas that they 00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:37.960 would perceive that they would welcome also. 00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:40.780 Yes, certainly the story. And that's why we're 00:43:40.780 --> 00:43:42.980 doing what we do and having individuals such 00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:45.960 as yourself and others on the program. Just coming 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:48.500 back to Canada for a sec, for those of our... 00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:50.380 Audience who don't know, the Global Mail is, 00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:53.300 I guess, the national newspaper in Canada. I 00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:55.599 think it's still called that. And you're one 00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:59.260 of the recipients of the Best 2024 Executive 00:43:59.260 --> 00:44:02.760 Award. So congratulations to that, Steve. Obviously, 00:44:02.780 --> 00:44:05.679 with what you're doing and how you've taken the 00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:08.260 organization along with earning to these levels, 00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:11.000 it's great to see that individual recognition 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:13.469 as well. Thank you, Mark. You know, the one thing, 00:44:13.469 --> 00:44:15.989 if you're at the management level, you always 00:44:15.989 --> 00:44:19.590 look forward. And sometimes in those quiet moments, 00:44:19.769 --> 00:44:21.329 you know, when you're not planning where the 00:44:21.329 --> 00:44:22.789 organization is going and how you're going to 00:44:22.789 --> 00:44:25.469 get there, you kind of reflect on whether you're 00:44:25.469 --> 00:44:28.630 doing a decent job creating motivation for staff 00:44:28.630 --> 00:44:32.630 to follow with you or not. And so this award 00:44:32.630 --> 00:44:35.030 I was surprised at. But, you know, at the same 00:44:35.030 --> 00:44:37.510 time, you look at it and you're pretty proud 00:44:37.510 --> 00:44:40.010 about it because. I'm not getting this award 00:44:40.010 --> 00:44:43.449 because I'm doing good audits. You know, maybe 00:44:43.449 --> 00:44:46.070 part of getting this award is because what Ernie 00:44:46.070 --> 00:44:48.690 and I have created is causing a materially positive 00:44:48.690 --> 00:44:52.880 impact on First Nations that need it. want it, 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.980 desire it. And so that's a bit humbling, but 00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:57.880 at the same time, it's also pretty rewarding. 00:44:58.059 --> 00:45:01.320 So I was surprised, but really pleased when I 00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:03.179 heard that earlier this year. Congratulations. 00:45:03.639 --> 00:45:07.239 Yeah, very well earned. And it's credit to you. 00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:09.880 And it must be nice for you to see your vision 00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:12.719 and those of some of the others in the early 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:17.179 days of FNFA come to fruition. It was. Must be 00:45:17.179 --> 00:45:20.860 an exciting and busy time. Absolutely. And, you 00:45:20.860 --> 00:45:22.739 know, some of the people that did hard work before 00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:25.099 our get here in the first part of our act, which 00:45:25.099 --> 00:45:27.699 didn't really pan out to the property tax related 00:45:27.699 --> 00:45:31.119 so much in supporting loans, but their hard work 00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:33.800 is part of this too, because it was a teamwork 00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:36.519 to get here. That's fantastic. And we're very 00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:39.019 pleased to have yourself on. We've had earlier, 00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:43.480 we've had a really great insight, FNFA. and what 00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:46.159 it's doing to bring economic opportunities to 00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:48.019 the Indigenous communities across the country, 00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:50.659 but also about reaching out to the capital markets 00:45:50.659 --> 00:45:53.539 and demonstrating what a great opportunity this 00:45:53.539 --> 00:45:56.219 is for investors. And now you have these different 00:45:56.219 --> 00:45:58.719 terms that match with their own needs. And as 00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:01.699 you know, ESG is so important over here in the 00:46:01.699 --> 00:46:04.800 UK and Europe. So, Steve, we'd like to thank 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:07.719 you for being on our podcast today. We look forward 00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:11.079 to keeping in touch with you and seeing you over 00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:15.110 in London shortly. Love it. Count us there. Mark, 00:46:15.190 --> 00:46:17.510 Robert, it's been a pleasure. And thank you for 00:46:17.510 --> 00:46:19.090 having me on. I appreciate it.