WEBVTT 00:00:01.659 --> 00:00:04.240 Welcome to today's episode of Drumbeats, where 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:06.580 we'll dive into the evolving Indigenous economy. 00:00:06.860 --> 00:00:09.480 We'll discuss how Indigenous -led ventures are 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:12.160 reshaping the investment landscape and driving 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:14.900 significant economic growth. Hey Rob, great to 00:00:14.900 --> 00:00:18.039 be together again. Good to see you, Mark. How 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:21.019 was your summer? It was fantastic. It was busy. 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:23.699 I was in Canada at the lake in Ontario for part 00:00:23.699 --> 00:00:27.140 of it. Great. And where's the lake for everybody 00:00:27.140 --> 00:00:30.120 who doesn't know? Across the bay from La Tendinaga 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:33.320 in the Mohawk. Bay of Quenty, where my family 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:36.340 are from. Great. Right between Toronto and Montreal. 00:00:36.659 --> 00:00:40.560 Excellent. So we had lots of family time at the 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:43.979 lake. And then I had business in Africa. It took 00:00:43.979 --> 00:00:47.679 me to Africa. Then I was back at the lake. So 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:51.170 it was a... It was a fun but busy summer. How 00:00:51.170 --> 00:00:54.030 was yours? Great. It was great. I didn't make 00:00:54.030 --> 00:00:55.969 it back to Canada, but I made it up Scotland, 00:00:56.090 --> 00:00:58.689 which I always think is a bit like Canada when 00:00:58.689 --> 00:01:00.670 I get up there because you can breathe and it's 00:01:00.670 --> 00:01:04.629 very open. And of course, many of the first settlers 00:01:04.629 --> 00:01:08.109 came from Scotland. And of course, the Métis, 00:01:08.150 --> 00:01:11.650 they all have Scottish roots as well. So it was 00:01:11.650 --> 00:01:15.650 nice. And of course, being in London, we had 00:01:15.650 --> 00:01:18.359 terrible weather for most of the summer. I think 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.000 today's going to be one of the hottest days before 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:24.459 it turns bad. But it was nice and it was relaxing. 00:01:25.379 --> 00:01:28.239 And, you know, the city really shuts down in 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:31.439 August. But I think when you're back in Canada, 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:33.939 there's still a lot going on. Oh, yeah. No, it 00:01:33.939 --> 00:01:36.280 was a busy summer on the Indigenous investment 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:40.760 front. Lots of activity. But it's great to be 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:43.599 back here high above the city of London with 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:46.599 you and talking and having a bit of a debrief 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:49.189 on. And what happened in Canada over the summer. 00:01:49.329 --> 00:01:52.269 Great. So why don't we talk about that? Because 00:01:52.269 --> 00:01:56.790 there's a number of news that's come out and 00:01:56.790 --> 00:02:00.829 some reports, but everybody now seems to say, 00:02:00.989 --> 00:02:05.189 wow, this is a huge economic opportunity. Not 00:02:05.189 --> 00:02:08.169 just reconciliation, which of course is a must, 00:02:08.210 --> 00:02:10.870 and I think in the individual world and public 00:02:10.870 --> 00:02:13.349 policy review, it's no longer a moral imperative. 00:02:13.469 --> 00:02:19.189 There's a huge economic opportunity. facing all 00:02:19.189 --> 00:02:22.750 Canadians. So the Indigenous are giving something 00:02:22.750 --> 00:02:25.810 back to Canada again, right? First time we were 00:02:25.810 --> 00:02:29.050 welcomed and traveled the land. Absolutely. It's 00:02:29.050 --> 00:02:31.770 not a passing trend. I think most people agree 00:02:31.770 --> 00:02:34.629 now there's been a fundamental change in the 00:02:34.629 --> 00:02:39.389 way a lot of these partnerships are being structured 00:02:39.389 --> 00:02:42.949 and the way they're being thought of, both by 00:02:42.949 --> 00:02:45.349 non -Indigenous companies and the Indigenous. 00:02:46.110 --> 00:02:48.389 companies themselves and it was great to have 00:02:48.389 --> 00:02:51.849 a chance to talk to chief crystal smith uh a 00:02:51.849 --> 00:02:55.069 few weeks ago as we did and talk about her project 00:02:55.069 --> 00:02:58.469 and indigenous -led projects uh we're seeing 00:02:58.469 --> 00:03:03.090 more and more of those what about this came out 00:03:03.090 --> 00:03:06.150 that the indigenous nations now the third largest 00:03:06.150 --> 00:03:08.469 owner of renewable energy products in canada 00:03:08.469 --> 00:03:12.590 projects in canada i mean that that's Huge, 80 00:03:12.590 --> 00:03:15.449 % of renewable projects in the country involve 00:03:15.449 --> 00:03:18.550 some level of Indigenous ownership or joint venture. 00:03:18.610 --> 00:03:20.949 I know a lot of this is news to you too. Yeah, 00:03:20.969 --> 00:03:26.169 I haven't seen that statistic, but it's an indication 00:03:26.169 --> 00:03:28.930 of what's happening. But really, we're just at 00:03:28.930 --> 00:03:35.009 the cusp of what is going to happen. And so that 00:03:35.009 --> 00:03:37.270 figure is just going to get larger and larger 00:03:37.270 --> 00:03:40.539 because there are very few. renewable energy 00:03:40.539 --> 00:03:42.800 projects that will be able to get done without 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:47.159 significant participation from local Indigenous 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:49.879 communities. I think when you look at Canada, 00:03:50.020 --> 00:03:54.879 if you're doing any project that's touching the 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.479 earth, you're going to touch an Indigenous community. 00:03:59.379 --> 00:04:02.180 We're a sparsely populated country to begin with. 00:04:03.020 --> 00:04:09.050 And all that land started as Indigenous. And 00:04:09.050 --> 00:04:13.229 the way Canada was formed with Rupert's Land 00:04:13.229 --> 00:04:16.089 and the Hudson's Bait Company, all that land 00:04:16.089 --> 00:04:19.149 just kind of became crown land and part of it, 00:04:19.329 --> 00:04:24.350 included in Canada. And so now if you're touching 00:04:24.350 --> 00:04:25.769 anything, you're going to touch an Indigenous 00:04:25.769 --> 00:04:29.089 community. So people have to learn how to operate. 00:04:29.709 --> 00:04:35.230 I think that's just a huge change. And I think 00:04:35.230 --> 00:04:37.310 something that came out, we were reading about... 00:04:37.420 --> 00:04:40.740 last night it was negative kind of surprising 00:04:40.740 --> 00:04:45.319 is that there isn't really a certification system 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:49.420 for what's an Indigenous business the way there 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:55.100 should be. No, not a formal one. There are new 00:04:55.100 --> 00:04:59.399 rules about and new government policies all the 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:03.699 time looking at government contracts more and 00:05:03.699 --> 00:05:06.920 more. government contracts going to indigenous 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:12.620 businesses so that the indigenous economy can 00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:16.439 grow and be more reflective of the indigenous 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:20.740 population in Canada and so indigenous companies 00:05:20.740 --> 00:05:24.540 looking to get their share of government business 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:28.720 in particular but there have been recent scandals 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:33.160 and no clear rules on What exactly is an Indigenous 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.899 -owned business? And so groups like the Canadian 00:05:36.899 --> 00:05:41.300 Council on Indigenous Business are developing 00:05:41.300 --> 00:05:45.579 formal certification programs on the stamp of 00:05:45.579 --> 00:05:49.100 approval for businesses. Right. And Tabitha Bull, 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:52.040 who leads what is now the CCIB, it was called 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:54.379 the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business, 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:57.839 but they've renamed themselves. She leads that, 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:00.160 and she talks passionately about that. And when 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.040 you think about it, It's absolutely incredible 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:09.860 with all the history that there's no kind of 00:06:09.860 --> 00:06:12.519 rules. Yeah, it's been too easy to game the system, 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:18.399 I think, up until now. If a government is only 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:20.980 interested in ticking a box and being able to 00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:22.959 say that a certain percentage of government contracts 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:26.319 are going to indigenous businesses, then nobody's 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:29.319 spent a lot of time focusing on what is an indigenous 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:34.420 business and what really counts. So I think now 00:06:34.420 --> 00:06:38.500 we're, with groups like CCIB, getting to the 00:06:38.500 --> 00:06:41.060 substance of these policies and what are they 00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:45.209 really trying to do. What are they trying to 00:06:45.209 --> 00:06:47.189 achieve? Who are they trying to benefit? And 00:06:47.189 --> 00:06:50.709 so hopefully as more companies get certified, 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:54.230 there'll be more confidence in these programs. 00:06:54.610 --> 00:06:56.930 Yes, especially now that there's more and more 00:06:56.930 --> 00:06:59.750 funding available. I'm not sure how big it is, 00:06:59.829 --> 00:07:02.250 but the Federal Indigenous Loan Guarantee Program 00:07:02.250 --> 00:07:07.670 is opening up. Yeah, they've announced a $5 billion. 00:07:08.170 --> 00:07:12.050 dollars initially and that is a drop in the bucket 00:07:12.050 --> 00:07:14.310 compared to what's needed when you look at the 00:07:14.310 --> 00:07:19.209 infrastructure gap of 300 billion in the financing 00:07:19.209 --> 00:07:24.629 that's all told an infrastructure gap of 500 00:07:24.629 --> 00:07:28.490 odd billion a lot of that needs to be financed 00:07:28.490 --> 00:07:31.670 but it's an important first step for the government 00:07:31.670 --> 00:07:35.610 provincial governments have started to provide 00:07:35.610 --> 00:07:39.359 guarantees they've been very very successful, 00:07:39.359 --> 00:07:42.319 Alberta, British Columbia, and others, and now 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:44.079 the federal government is getting into it, and 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:47.699 that will be a big boost. For our listeners that 00:07:47.699 --> 00:07:51.459 are mostly over here in the UK, in the city, 00:07:51.500 --> 00:07:54.160 can you talk a little bit about the structure 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.139 about the federal government and the provinces, 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.699 because Canada has a completely different, it's 00:07:59.699 --> 00:08:02.199 a federal, which isn't a good word here, right? 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:04.720 But it's a federal structure, completely different 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.800 than in the States. or here where it's a very 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.240 centralized government. Can you explain about 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:15.420 the Canadians? We're governed in a very decentralized 00:08:15.420 --> 00:08:20.379 way. So the provinces in Canada own the resources 00:08:20.379 --> 00:08:28.459 and provincial powers, for the most part, are 00:08:28.459 --> 00:08:32.519 much broader. than our federal government's powers. 00:08:32.779 --> 00:08:36.159 And so when it comes to environmental issues, 00:08:36.419 --> 00:08:42.419 land issues, health, a lot of finance, those 00:08:42.419 --> 00:08:46.740 are provincial areas of jurisdiction. And then 00:08:46.740 --> 00:08:53.139 the federal government has its own area of jurisdiction, 00:08:53.340 --> 00:08:58.159 but in a lot of ways the power. lies with our 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:03.379 provinces and territories. So, yeah, it's a very 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:08.159 decentralized system in Canada. So if you're 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:11.200 going to Canada to invest in Canada... you're 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:13.820 going to have to build your connections, of course, 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:15.600 with your Indigenous partners, but you're going 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:17.340 to have to understand how that provincial government 00:09:17.340 --> 00:09:18.980 works. It doesn't matter if you know them in 00:09:18.980 --> 00:09:22.460 Ontario, if you're in BC. It can be very different. 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:26.220 Quebec, the East Coast, up in the North, our 00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:30.720 Inuit friends, yeah, it's all very different 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:35.529 and you need good local relationships. Yes. When 00:09:35.529 --> 00:09:38.029 we're talking about some of those projects, again, 00:09:38.190 --> 00:09:40.950 we're talking different numbers, 545 billion 00:09:40.950 --> 00:09:46.169 and 475 projects over the next few years. I mean, 00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:52.570 it's huge. And again, there's this great quote 00:09:52.570 --> 00:09:55.629 somebody said, Canada's like an emerging market 00:09:55.629 --> 00:09:58.230 economy, but without the risks of an emerging 00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:00.850 market, because there are these huge projects. 00:10:01.110 --> 00:10:06.970 And with the supply chain. on -shoring and everything 00:10:06.970 --> 00:10:10.309 that's going on. I mean, Canada is a great safe 00:10:10.309 --> 00:10:14.090 destination. Absolutely. You know, we have our 00:10:14.090 --> 00:10:16.009 southern border. We, of course, have to worry 00:10:16.009 --> 00:10:18.809 about the challenges with Americans coming across 00:10:18.809 --> 00:10:21.549 the border, right? But, you know, Canada is a 00:10:21.549 --> 00:10:25.230 real safe place to invest. It is, and we don't 00:10:25.230 --> 00:10:32.370 have $500 billion extra to invest. We will need 00:10:32.370 --> 00:10:38.590 the help of... non -canadian investors and so 00:10:38.590 --> 00:10:44.889 city of london uh europe asia and of course the 00:10:44.889 --> 00:10:47.850 united states uh already investing in some of 00:10:47.850 --> 00:10:50.549 these projects and we're going to need more and 00:10:50.549 --> 00:10:54.389 more of that kind of investment i guess why don't 00:10:54.389 --> 00:10:57.889 we take a look at some of the the news that's 00:10:57.889 --> 00:11:00.210 come through in the summer we've touched on some 00:11:00.210 --> 00:11:04.850 of them and So one article that I came across 00:11:04.850 --> 00:11:07.850 that we've touched on was about the Indigenous 00:11:07.850 --> 00:11:12.409 economy and engine of reconciliation. And that 00:11:12.409 --> 00:11:16.429 was from Policy Magazine, which is quite a popular 00:11:16.429 --> 00:11:21.509 publication in Canada. And J .P. Gladue, I guess, 00:11:21.529 --> 00:11:24.129 who was also Indigenous, he wrote this article 00:11:24.129 --> 00:11:28.210 and summarized. J .P. is fantastic. So he's the 00:11:28.210 --> 00:11:30.129 one who said this isn't just a moral imperative 00:11:30.129 --> 00:11:32.850 anymore. There's an economic opportunity, which, 00:11:32.909 --> 00:11:36.990 of course, opens up a lot of people's eyes. So 00:11:36.990 --> 00:11:41.169 that was really important. He touched on a number 00:11:41.169 --> 00:11:44.309 of things that we talked about, Meadowlake. Indigenous 00:11:44.309 --> 00:11:47.350 businesses are growing. He mentioned about Boucher 00:11:47.350 --> 00:11:52.549 Group. 1 ,300 employees, 40 % Indigenous staff. 00:11:53.389 --> 00:11:56.529 You know, that's huge in those projects that 00:11:56.529 --> 00:11:59.570 are coming through. So he gave a great summary 00:11:59.570 --> 00:12:01.490 of what's happening. And then we were talking 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:07.549 about Hydro One. So they're engaging with the 00:12:07.549 --> 00:12:09.710 local Indigenous communities, I understand, up 00:12:09.710 --> 00:12:14.470 in Sault Ste. Marie, right? Yeah, northern Ontario, 00:12:14.610 --> 00:12:17.330 some remote communities who've never had. direct 00:12:17.330 --> 00:12:21.929 access to the uh to the grid in ontario and they've 00:12:21.929 --> 00:12:26.190 relied on diesel power as many remote communities 00:12:26.190 --> 00:12:31.190 have had to do and so hydro ones together with 00:12:31.190 --> 00:12:38.169 guinea power have a joint venture to establish 00:12:38.169 --> 00:12:43.549 um to connect those communities to the grid and 00:12:43.549 --> 00:12:45.679 more and more communities are getting connected 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:49.100 every day uh and what's any guinea power is a 00:12:49.100 --> 00:12:55.840 um is owned by the 25 indigenous communities 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.820 in northern ontario and they own the business 00:12:58.820 --> 00:13:01.200 and they own the transition transmission lines 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:05.500 and hydro one is the it's the provincial is it 00:13:05.500 --> 00:13:08.100 owned by the province or it's yeah it's the provincial 00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:12.600 power to power right so coming back to this bit 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:16.610 about canada and the provinces Because that is 00:13:16.610 --> 00:13:22.870 huge in terms of land mass and the hydro power 00:13:22.870 --> 00:13:25.289 they have. But of course, the big hydro player 00:13:25.289 --> 00:13:29.090 is Hydro Quebec. And the same sort of thing. 00:13:30.809 --> 00:13:34.090 Great access to power in terms of the resources 00:13:34.090 --> 00:13:35.789 they have. But then you hear about these indigenous 00:13:35.789 --> 00:13:38.149 communities that aren't hooked up. And the power 00:13:38.149 --> 00:13:40.269 is probably coming right beside them, which is 00:13:40.269 --> 00:13:45.289 crazy. Completely unacceptable. Forget indigenous 00:13:45.289 --> 00:13:47.950 or non -indigenous. How can a successful country 00:13:47.950 --> 00:13:55.070 like Canada have people without basic necessities? 00:13:55.889 --> 00:13:59.070 And not only providing them now with getting 00:13:59.070 --> 00:14:01.629 them connected, but indigenous -owned companies 00:14:01.629 --> 00:14:06.509 involved in those businesses now. Hydro -Quebec 00:14:06.509 --> 00:14:08.990 is looking at the same kinds of partnerships. 00:14:09.269 --> 00:14:11.889 EC Hydro is as well. Great. And I think, you 00:14:11.889 --> 00:14:13.610 know, transmission lines, which is going to be 00:14:13.610 --> 00:14:16.210 a lot of investment in the future. Hydro One 00:14:16.210 --> 00:14:18.809 has partnered with a number of Indigenous communities 00:14:18.809 --> 00:14:20.610 now, so they have a stake in it. Because they're, 00:14:20.610 --> 00:14:24.029 again, they have the land. Yeah, Hydro One has 00:14:24.029 --> 00:14:26.490 actually stated as a policy that they will not 00:14:26.490 --> 00:14:31.289 build any more transmission lines, significant 00:14:31.289 --> 00:14:34.289 transmission lines, without local Indigenous 00:14:34.289 --> 00:14:37.649 communities having at least a 50 % equity stake 00:14:37.649 --> 00:14:42.870 in those lines. So that's a big, big shift. Yeah, 00:14:42.909 --> 00:14:45.929 that's important. And I guess, you know, there's 00:14:45.929 --> 00:14:47.929 always good news and bad news, and I'm not sure 00:14:47.929 --> 00:14:51.769 who was involved in this historic bond deal failure. 00:14:52.970 --> 00:14:55.850 Do you want to talk about that? Do you know? 00:14:55.909 --> 00:14:58.370 Yeah, I mean, it's very newsworthy. As a firm, 00:14:58.429 --> 00:15:00.570 we were involved in that transaction, so there's 00:15:00.570 --> 00:15:05.840 only so much I can say. But that is... noteworthy 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.220 for a lot of reasons it was going it is so who's 00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:13.659 tc energy sorry tc energy our western um pipeline 00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:21.259 uh company and uh and they're very canada used 00:15:21.259 --> 00:15:25.419 to be called no right right uh very big and they 00:15:25.419 --> 00:15:29.259 they've signed a deal with 70 first nations communities 00:15:29.259 --> 00:15:35.789 in uh in alberta and uh in British Columbia, 00:15:35.990 --> 00:15:40.250 and they are trying to sell part of the business 00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:45.690 to these 70 communities at a cost of just over 00:15:45.690 --> 00:15:48.509 a billion dollars. These indigenous communities 00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:52.710 are trying to buy about 5 % of the business. 00:15:53.590 --> 00:16:01.789 And so their stake needs to be financed. These 00:16:01.789 --> 00:16:03.870 indigenous communities need to raise money to 00:16:03.870 --> 00:16:09.000 buy. the stake from tc energy uh and they believed 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:14.100 they had uh the funding to do that they had bond 00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:19.679 a bond so i think bond deal finance aspen investment 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.419 cell piece was that it yeah and the bond cell 00:16:22.419 --> 00:16:25.399 was led by ci bc and td but i guess it comes 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:29.320 back to you know spreadsheet nightmare right 00:16:30.629 --> 00:16:37.529 It's been publicly reported that TC Energy has 00:16:37.529 --> 00:16:41.370 said that there was an error in some of the spreadsheets. 00:16:41.370 --> 00:16:45.370 And so the investors who were lined up to invest, 00:16:45.750 --> 00:16:51.370 that deal couldn't complete. And that was going 00:16:51.370 --> 00:16:56.850 to be a bond that was sold. to some pretty sophisticated 00:16:56.850 --> 00:17:00.250 investors. And because of this error at the last 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:05.730 minute, they've had to postpone the deal. I hope 00:17:05.730 --> 00:17:08.150 they'll come back. I don't think anybody's saying 00:17:08.150 --> 00:17:12.750 that this deal is dead, but it's been delayed. 00:17:13.849 --> 00:17:20.049 It's an embarrassment for TC Energy. I think 00:17:20.049 --> 00:17:23.859 it's the first. bond deal in Canada that's ever 00:17:23.859 --> 00:17:27.240 got to that stage, and everybody was ready to 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.839 close. Yes. It was one of these last -minute 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:39.119 cancellations, and that's the first time that's 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:42.680 happened in Canada, in Canadian history. Well, 00:17:42.819 --> 00:17:45.920 I'm sure everybody wants this out of the news, 00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:49.079 so we won't talk about it anymore. Hopefully 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:53.079 it will come back. with a very successful deal. 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.880 Canada has a new federal fund, I guess it's with 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:00.259 the Business Development Bank of Canada. And 00:18:00.259 --> 00:18:02.539 they talked, and I was really surprised when 00:18:02.539 --> 00:18:05.099 I read this, right? Because this is Canadian, 00:18:05.420 --> 00:18:08.400 right? Canadian government invests $200 million 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.339 in Indigenous and Black -led businesses. And 00:18:11.339 --> 00:18:15.700 I think Tabitha Bull recommended a book called... 00:18:17.420 --> 00:18:19.339 A community in Manitoba, I can't remember the 00:18:19.339 --> 00:18:22.460 name, Burt Lake. Okay, a community in Manitoba, 00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:25.920 and it talks about, you know, the indigenous 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.400 community was there, right? And then, of course, 00:18:29.500 --> 00:18:32.660 the immigrants started to show up. And, of course, 00:18:32.660 --> 00:18:37.200 in Manitoba, a lot of Ukrainians. And, you know, 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:39.640 they're like, well, we came here and we fought 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:43.440 our own way, and why do you get special treatment? 00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:47.190 Which is, well, because the Indigenous people 00:18:47.190 --> 00:18:50.490 were there before everybody, right? So it is 00:18:50.490 --> 00:18:53.569 a completely different issue. It's not, oh, let's 00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:56.329 put the Indigenous community alongside all the 00:18:56.329 --> 00:19:00.089 other communities facing their challenges. Because 00:19:00.089 --> 00:19:04.130 we are still, I guess, maybe we're permanent 00:19:04.130 --> 00:19:07.809 residents now, but in somebody else's land who's... 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.420 who's led us so i was surprised when it came 00:19:10.420 --> 00:19:12.880 out and said well this is for indigenous communities 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.599 and and other communities facing similar challenges 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.799 because i think the indigenous you know it's 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:20.900 a it's a completely different level so i don't 00:19:20.900 --> 00:19:23.460 know why they wrapped it up together of course 00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:25.579 there's many communities need help but i just 00:19:25.579 --> 00:19:29.500 thought that was somebody doesn't get it right 00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:34.200 i i would think yeah there are a number of programs 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.640 available and i'm not as familiar with that with 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:43.039 that one. But between provincial government programs 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:49.079 and the new federal guarantee program, the Canadian 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:53.200 Infrastructure Bank and the work that Hilary 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.000 Thatcher does, they're investing in indigenous 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:02.839 projects, First Nations. Financial Authority 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:06.440 and Ernie Daniels and Steve Berna, their group, 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.619 who we're going to talk to in the next few weeks. 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:15.619 There are many, many, more and more financing 00:20:15.619 --> 00:20:18.259 alternatives and government programs out there 00:20:18.259 --> 00:20:23.640 to help get some of these, facilitate these projects 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:27.940 and get them completed. Great. And just to kind 00:20:27.940 --> 00:20:30.980 of round up where we are. We've talked on a number 00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:32.920 of things in terms of natural resources, and 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:40.079 people forget about, you know, the fish and the 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.460 other wildlife. And there was this great article 00:20:42.460 --> 00:20:45.400 in the Kansas National Observer, if you fund 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.460 it, the salmon will come. Talking about the Columbia 00:20:48.460 --> 00:20:50.500 River, and when a lot of people think about the 00:20:50.500 --> 00:20:53.839 Columbia River, they think of in the States as 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.539 it weaves its way down. But that was at one point 00:20:56.539 --> 00:20:58.839 the greatest source of salmon runs in the world. 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:05.460 before it got all dammed up. And I guess the 00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:10.519 headwaters are in B .C., and it then works its 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:12.640 way down through Washington State, emptying in 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:17.559 the Pacific in Oregon, a 2 ,000 -kilometer journey. 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:21.059 And the salmon are running again. We've actually 00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:24.640 got them coming back after all this time. Which 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:28.140 is huge. And it's funny you mention fish, because 00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:31.680 this is a big week in Canadian history. It's 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:36.240 the 25th anniversary just this week that the 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:40.640 Donald Marshall decision in the Supreme Court 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.759 of Canada was handed down. And that was a landmark 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:47.720 decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, recognizing 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:53.279 for the first time treaty rights. from the 1700s 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:56.240 that the courts had not been extinguished and 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:01.500 were still valid. And Donald Marshall was a McMahon, 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:06.480 east coast of Canada, and he was fishing out 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:11.839 of season, and so he was charged. with fishing 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.160 out of season and he said i've got treaty rights 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.500 that give me the right to fish anytime i want 00:22:18.500 --> 00:22:21.019 and that went all the way up to the supreme court 00:22:21.019 --> 00:22:25.900 of canada and they found that yes actually these 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:31.900 treaty rights from 1760s um uh were still valid 00:22:31.900 --> 00:22:35.579 and so wow there was a flash point there were 00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:39.700 some other things that happened in those uh in 00:22:39.700 --> 00:22:44.329 years around that decision. But that was an important 00:22:44.329 --> 00:22:48.410 decision. That was 25 years ago this week. Wow. 00:22:48.990 --> 00:22:52.069 Amazing. And I, you know, I think when people 00:22:52.069 --> 00:22:56.690 hear that, I think sometimes they think, well, 00:22:56.730 --> 00:22:58.349 what's the implications of that? Maybe they'll 00:22:58.349 --> 00:23:02.470 be overfishing. But in all honesty, I've never 00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:05.950 heard of an Indigenous community not looking 00:23:05.950 --> 00:23:09.950 after. the wildlife or the territory that we're 00:23:09.950 --> 00:23:12.450 responsible. Because you talk about seven generations, 00:23:12.690 --> 00:23:17.950 right? That you are holding something for future 00:23:17.950 --> 00:23:21.190 generations as opposed to how much I can take 00:23:21.190 --> 00:23:24.029 out of it. Because if we talk about the Grand 00:23:24.029 --> 00:23:27.589 Banks of Newfoundland with all the cod, and I 00:23:27.589 --> 00:23:30.990 guess, you know, when the Vikings arrived, okay, 00:23:31.109 --> 00:23:32.650 while the indigenous communities were there, 00:23:32.789 --> 00:23:36.829 there was no issue with fish. They were there. 00:23:36.849 --> 00:23:38.609 The Vikings arrived. They were happy. And then 00:23:38.609 --> 00:23:41.250 when the European settlers came back, they found 00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:47.490 the fishing was unbelievable. And then I think 00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:51.390 20 or 30 years ago, there was basically no fish 00:23:51.390 --> 00:23:55.109 and they had to shut it down because we fished 00:23:55.109 --> 00:23:59.519 it out, which is crazy. Well, in this particular 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:01.960 issue, subsequent court decisions have pared 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:05.099 back a little bit, so it's not total free reign, 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:07.700 you can fish any time you want, and conservation 00:24:07.700 --> 00:24:12.660 has been recognized as a valid concern of the 00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:16.200 governments, and Indigenous communities are just 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:21.119 as interested in conservation. But it was a recognition 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.099 of treaty rights, and more and more treaty rights 00:24:25.099 --> 00:24:28.769 are being recognized. all the time some big decisions 00:24:28.769 --> 00:24:32.829 recently uh around the country again recognizing 00:24:32.829 --> 00:24:37.450 treaty rights uh that have not been uh lived 00:24:37.450 --> 00:24:41.009 up to um over the years it's a big big issue 00:24:41.009 --> 00:24:44.309 the government is is facing well that comes back 00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:47.990 to canada is a parliamentary democracy but we 00:24:47.990 --> 00:24:51.329 have a supreme court and we have a constitution 00:24:51.329 --> 00:24:54.430 charter rights and freedoms which is enshrined 00:24:54.430 --> 00:24:58.170 these he's right so this issue is is not going 00:24:58.170 --> 00:25:02.650 away okay in fact it's being resolved so there 00:25:02.650 --> 00:25:07.130 will be clarity and we know how the outcomes 00:25:07.130 --> 00:25:09.549 will be these these rights will be respected 00:25:09.549 --> 00:25:15.069 but the other thing to mention is uh is what 00:25:15.069 --> 00:25:17.430 happened right at the beginning of the summer 00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:22.980 in in yukon there was uh the eagle mine which 00:25:22.980 --> 00:25:28.079 was owned by Victoria Gold, TSX company. Right. 00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.759 And they had had some problems earlier this year, 00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:40.940 but their heap leaching had collapsed, and there 00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:46.140 was a landslide of rocks and cyanide onto the 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:50.869 local. land which include creeks and total disaster. 00:25:51.210 --> 00:25:54.609 So Victoria Gold went from a very promising gold 00:25:54.609 --> 00:25:57.809 company when it was put into receivership this 00:25:57.809 --> 00:26:00.829 summer because it could not manage this disaster. 00:26:01.269 --> 00:26:05.769 And now the Yukon government has taken over and 00:26:05.769 --> 00:26:13.130 Victoria Gold is sadly in receivership and local 00:26:13.130 --> 00:26:15.589 communities are trying to deal with the aftermath. 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:21.519 of this environmental disaster. And I get, I 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:25.380 mean, that is just a disaster, because there's 00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:27.700 no assets, you know, they've taken over, but 00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:30.839 there's the cleanup in what you can't clean, 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.099 because when these disasters happen, they've 00:26:34.099 --> 00:26:37.339 destroyed an environment. Yeah, it's a reminder 00:26:37.339 --> 00:26:40.599 of how important some of these environmental 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:50.559 laws and issues are. Yes. So these projects sometimes 00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:54.920 can go wrong, and the local communities are the 00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:59.299 ones who are going to bear the most cost. And 00:26:59.299 --> 00:27:05.759 so, yeah, we're thinking about everybody in and 00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:10.500 around that Eagle Mine at the moment. Yes. Terrible 00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:13.900 situation. So what about coming up for the next... 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:19.079 few months is that projects coming to fruition. 00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:26.140 You know, the economy continues to grow. Indigenous 00:27:26.140 --> 00:27:28.400 investments remain important. So I think we're 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:30.019 just going to have more and more deals to talk 00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:32.920 to over the next weeks and months. We've got 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:35.619 some great guests lined up on our podcast coming 00:27:35.619 --> 00:27:38.160 up that we're going to be talking to, which is 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:43.559 really exciting. And then I guess we'll... We'll 00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:46.160 perhaps regroup and do another. Here's the news 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:50.359 from the current month we're in or from the next 00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:53.319 month. Anyway, great to be here in McCarthy's 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:57.880 offices in the City of London on a Friday. So 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:00.519 we're the only two people in the city. But it's 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:02.700 been great to be with you again, Rob, and I'm 00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:03.980 glad you had a good summer. Good to see you too, 00:28:04.099 --> 00:28:08.579 Mark. I'm looking forward to... to more discussions 00:28:08.579 --> 00:28:10.640 with really interesting Indigenous leaders. I 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.839 know we've got Chief Terry Smith lined up in 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:17.220 a few weeks. We talked about Ernie Daniels, First 00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:20.019 Nations Financial Authority, and some other really 00:28:20.019 --> 00:28:23.180 interesting guests to talk about the deals that 00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:26.440 they are doing. Yes, really exciting. Thanks 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:28.880 for joining us on this episode of Drumbeats. 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:32.019 We hope our discussion has shed light on how 00:28:32.019 --> 00:28:34.039 Indigenous -led ventures are setting new standards 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.210 for investment and sustainability. Stay tuned 00:28:37.210 --> 00:28:39.509 for more insights in the forces driving change 00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:41.650 in our world and follow us on whatever is your 00:28:41.650 --> 00:28:43.730 favorite platform to listen to podcasts.