Welcome to today's episode of Drumbeats, where
we'll dive into the evolving Indigenous economy.
We'll discuss how Indigenous -led ventures are
reshaping the investment landscape and driving
significant economic growth. Hey Rob, great to
be together again. Good to see you, Mark. How
was your summer? It was fantastic. It was busy.
I was in Canada at the lake in Ontario for part
of it. Great. And where's the lake for everybody
who doesn't know? Across the bay from La Tendinaga
in the Mohawk. Bay of Quenty, where my family
are from. Great. Right between Toronto and Montreal.
Excellent. So we had lots of family time at the
lake. And then I had business in Africa. It took
me to Africa. Then I was back at the lake. So
it was a... It was a fun but busy summer. How
was yours? Great. It was great. I didn't make
it back to Canada, but I made it up Scotland,
which I always think is a bit like Canada when
I get up there because you can breathe and it's
very open. And of course, many of the first settlers
came from Scotland. And of course, the Métis,
they all have Scottish roots as well. So it was
nice. And of course, being in London, we had
terrible weather for most of the summer. I think
today's going to be one of the hottest days before
it turns bad. But it was nice and it was relaxing.
And, you know, the city really shuts down in
August. But I think when you're back in Canada,
there's still a lot going on. Oh, yeah. No, it
was a busy summer on the Indigenous investment
front. Lots of activity. But it's great to be
back here high above the city of London with
you and talking and having a bit of a debrief
on. And what happened in Canada over the summer.
Great. So why don't we talk about that? Because
there's a number of news that's come out and
some reports, but everybody now seems to say,
wow, this is a huge economic opportunity. Not
just reconciliation, which of course is a must,
and I think in the individual world and public
policy review, it's no longer a moral imperative.
There's a huge economic opportunity. facing all
Canadians. So the Indigenous are giving something
back to Canada again, right? First time we were
welcomed and traveled the land. Absolutely. It's
not a passing trend. I think most people agree
now there's been a fundamental change in the
way a lot of these partnerships are being structured
and the way they're being thought of, both by
non -Indigenous companies and the Indigenous.
companies themselves and it was great to have
a chance to talk to chief crystal smith uh a
few weeks ago as we did and talk about her project
and indigenous -led projects uh we're seeing
more and more of those what about this came out
that the indigenous nations now the third largest
owner of renewable energy products in canada
projects in canada i mean that that's Huge, 80
% of renewable projects in the country involve
some level of Indigenous ownership or joint venture.
I know a lot of this is news to you too. Yeah,
I haven't seen that statistic, but it's an indication
of what's happening. But really, we're just at
the cusp of what is going to happen. And so that
figure is just going to get larger and larger
because there are very few. renewable energy
projects that will be able to get done without
significant participation from local Indigenous
communities. I think when you look at Canada,
if you're doing any project that's touching the
earth, you're going to touch an Indigenous community.
We're a sparsely populated country to begin with.
And all that land started as Indigenous. And
the way Canada was formed with Rupert's Land
and the Hudson's Bait Company, all that land
just kind of became crown land and part of it,
included in Canada. And so now if you're touching
anything, you're going to touch an Indigenous
community. So people have to learn how to operate.
I think that's just a huge change. And I think
something that came out, we were reading about...
last night it was negative kind of surprising
is that there isn't really a certification system
for what's an Indigenous business the way there
should be. No, not a formal one. There are new
rules about and new government policies all the
time looking at government contracts more and
more. government contracts going to indigenous
businesses so that the indigenous economy can
grow and be more reflective of the indigenous
population in Canada and so indigenous companies
looking to get their share of government business
in particular but there have been recent scandals
and no clear rules on What exactly is an Indigenous
-owned business? And so groups like the Canadian
Council on Indigenous Business are developing
formal certification programs on the stamp of
approval for businesses. Right. And Tabitha Bull,
who leads what is now the CCIB, it was called
the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business,
but they've renamed themselves. She leads that,
and she talks passionately about that. And when
you think about it, It's absolutely incredible
with all the history that there's no kind of
rules. Yeah, it's been too easy to game the system,
I think, up until now. If a government is only
interested in ticking a box and being able to
say that a certain percentage of government contracts
are going to indigenous businesses, then nobody's
spent a lot of time focusing on what is an indigenous
business and what really counts. So I think now
we're, with groups like CCIB, getting to the
substance of these policies and what are they
really trying to do. What are they trying to
achieve? Who are they trying to benefit? And
so hopefully as more companies get certified,
there'll be more confidence in these programs.
Yes, especially now that there's more and more
funding available. I'm not sure how big it is,
but the Federal Indigenous Loan Guarantee Program
is opening up. Yeah, they've announced a $5 billion.
dollars initially and that is a drop in the bucket
compared to what's needed when you look at the
infrastructure gap of 300 billion in the financing
that's all told an infrastructure gap of 500
odd billion a lot of that needs to be financed
but it's an important first step for the government
provincial governments have started to provide
guarantees they've been very very successful,
Alberta, British Columbia, and others, and now
the federal government is getting into it, and
that will be a big boost. For our listeners that
are mostly over here in the UK, in the city,
can you talk a little bit about the structure
about the federal government and the provinces,
because Canada has a completely different, it's
a federal, which isn't a good word here, right?
But it's a federal structure, completely different
than in the States. or here where it's a very
centralized government. Can you explain about
the Canadians? We're governed in a very decentralized
way. So the provinces in Canada own the resources
and provincial powers, for the most part, are
much broader. than our federal government's powers.
And so when it comes to environmental issues,
land issues, health, a lot of finance, those
are provincial areas of jurisdiction. And then
the federal government has its own area of jurisdiction,
but in a lot of ways the power. lies with our
provinces and territories. So, yeah, it's a very
decentralized system in Canada. So if you're
going to Canada to invest in Canada... you're
going to have to build your connections, of course,
with your Indigenous partners, but you're going
to have to understand how that provincial government
works. It doesn't matter if you know them in
Ontario, if you're in BC. It can be very different.
Quebec, the East Coast, up in the North, our
Inuit friends, yeah, it's all very different
and you need good local relationships. Yes. When
we're talking about some of those projects, again,
we're talking different numbers, 545 billion
and 475 projects over the next few years. I mean,
it's huge. And again, there's this great quote
somebody said, Canada's like an emerging market
economy, but without the risks of an emerging
market, because there are these huge projects.
And with the supply chain. on -shoring and everything
that's going on. I mean, Canada is a great safe
destination. Absolutely. You know, we have our
southern border. We, of course, have to worry
about the challenges with Americans coming across
the border, right? But, you know, Canada is a
real safe place to invest. It is, and we don't
have $500 billion extra to invest. We will need
the help of... non -canadian investors and so
city of london uh europe asia and of course the
united states uh already investing in some of
these projects and we're going to need more and
more of that kind of investment i guess why don't
we take a look at some of the the news that's
come through in the summer we've touched on some
of them and So one article that I came across
that we've touched on was about the Indigenous
economy and engine of reconciliation. And that
was from Policy Magazine, which is quite a popular
publication in Canada. And J .P. Gladue, I guess,
who was also Indigenous, he wrote this article
and summarized. J .P. is fantastic. So he's the
one who said this isn't just a moral imperative
anymore. There's an economic opportunity, which,
of course, opens up a lot of people's eyes. So
that was really important. He touched on a number
of things that we talked about, Meadowlake. Indigenous
businesses are growing. He mentioned about Boucher
Group. 1 ,300 employees, 40 % Indigenous staff.
You know, that's huge in those projects that
are coming through. So he gave a great summary
of what's happening. And then we were talking
about Hydro One. So they're engaging with the
local Indigenous communities, I understand, up
in Sault Ste. Marie, right? Yeah, northern Ontario,
some remote communities who've never had. direct
access to the uh to the grid in ontario and they've
relied on diesel power as many remote communities
have had to do and so hydro ones together with
guinea power have a joint venture to establish
um to connect those communities to the grid and
more and more communities are getting connected
every day uh and what's any guinea power is a
um is owned by the 25 indigenous communities
in northern ontario and they own the business
and they own the transition transmission lines
and hydro one is the it's the provincial is it
owned by the province or it's yeah it's the provincial
power to power right so coming back to this bit
about canada and the provinces Because that is
huge in terms of land mass and the hydro power
they have. But of course, the big hydro player
is Hydro Quebec. And the same sort of thing.
Great access to power in terms of the resources
they have. But then you hear about these indigenous
communities that aren't hooked up. And the power
is probably coming right beside them, which is
crazy. Completely unacceptable. Forget indigenous
or non -indigenous. How can a successful country
like Canada have people without basic necessities?
And not only providing them now with getting
them connected, but indigenous -owned companies
involved in those businesses now. Hydro -Quebec
is looking at the same kinds of partnerships.
EC Hydro is as well. Great. And I think, you
know, transmission lines, which is going to be
a lot of investment in the future. Hydro One
has partnered with a number of Indigenous communities
now, so they have a stake in it. Because they're,
again, they have the land. Yeah, Hydro One has
actually stated as a policy that they will not
build any more transmission lines, significant
transmission lines, without local Indigenous
communities having at least a 50 % equity stake
in those lines. So that's a big, big shift. Yeah,
that's important. And I guess, you know, there's
always good news and bad news, and I'm not sure
who was involved in this historic bond deal failure.
Do you want to talk about that? Do you know?
Yeah, I mean, it's very newsworthy. As a firm,
we were involved in that transaction, so there's
only so much I can say. But that is... noteworthy
for a lot of reasons it was going it is so who's
tc energy sorry tc energy our western um pipeline
uh company and uh and they're very canada used
to be called no right right uh very big and they
they've signed a deal with 70 first nations communities
in uh in alberta and uh in British Columbia,
and they are trying to sell part of the business
to these 70 communities at a cost of just over
a billion dollars. These indigenous communities
are trying to buy about 5 % of the business.
And so their stake needs to be financed. These
indigenous communities need to raise money to
buy. the stake from tc energy uh and they believed
they had uh the funding to do that they had bond
a bond so i think bond deal finance aspen investment
cell piece was that it yeah and the bond cell
was led by ci bc and td but i guess it comes
back to you know spreadsheet nightmare right
It's been publicly reported that TC Energy has
said that there was an error in some of the spreadsheets.
And so the investors who were lined up to invest,
that deal couldn't complete. And that was going
to be a bond that was sold. to some pretty sophisticated
investors. And because of this error at the last
minute, they've had to postpone the deal. I hope
they'll come back. I don't think anybody's saying
that this deal is dead, but it's been delayed.
It's an embarrassment for TC Energy. I think
it's the first. bond deal in Canada that's ever
got to that stage, and everybody was ready to
close. Yes. It was one of these last -minute
cancellations, and that's the first time that's
happened in Canada, in Canadian history. Well,
I'm sure everybody wants this out of the news,
so we won't talk about it anymore. Hopefully
it will come back. with a very successful deal.
Canada has a new federal fund, I guess it's with
the Business Development Bank of Canada. And
they talked, and I was really surprised when
I read this, right? Because this is Canadian,
right? Canadian government invests $200 million
in Indigenous and Black -led businesses. And
I think Tabitha Bull recommended a book called...
A community in Manitoba, I can't remember the
name, Burt Lake. Okay, a community in Manitoba,
and it talks about, you know, the indigenous
community was there, right? And then, of course,
the immigrants started to show up. And, of course,
in Manitoba, a lot of Ukrainians. And, you know,
they're like, well, we came here and we fought
our own way, and why do you get special treatment?
Which is, well, because the Indigenous people
were there before everybody, right? So it is
a completely different issue. It's not, oh, let's
put the Indigenous community alongside all the
other communities facing their challenges. Because
we are still, I guess, maybe we're permanent
residents now, but in somebody else's land who's...
who's led us so i was surprised when it came
out and said well this is for indigenous communities
and and other communities facing similar challenges
because i think the indigenous you know it's
a it's a completely different level so i don't
know why they wrapped it up together of course
there's many communities need help but i just
thought that was somebody doesn't get it right
i i would think yeah there are a number of programs
available and i'm not as familiar with that with
that one. But between provincial government programs
and the new federal guarantee program, the Canadian
Infrastructure Bank and the work that Hilary
Thatcher does, they're investing in indigenous
projects, First Nations. Financial Authority
and Ernie Daniels and Steve Berna, their group,
who we're going to talk to in the next few weeks.
There are many, many, more and more financing
alternatives and government programs out there
to help get some of these, facilitate these projects
and get them completed. Great. And just to kind
of round up where we are. We've talked on a number
of things in terms of natural resources, and
people forget about, you know, the fish and the
other wildlife. And there was this great article
in the Kansas National Observer, if you fund
it, the salmon will come. Talking about the Columbia
River, and when a lot of people think about the
Columbia River, they think of in the States as
it weaves its way down. But that was at one point
the greatest source of salmon runs in the world.
before it got all dammed up. And I guess the
headwaters are in B .C., and it then works its
way down through Washington State, emptying in
the Pacific in Oregon, a 2 ,000 -kilometer journey.
And the salmon are running again. We've actually
got them coming back after all this time. Which
is huge. And it's funny you mention fish, because
this is a big week in Canadian history. It's
the 25th anniversary just this week that the
Donald Marshall decision in the Supreme Court
of Canada was handed down. And that was a landmark
decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, recognizing
for the first time treaty rights. from the 1700s
that the courts had not been extinguished and
were still valid. And Donald Marshall was a McMahon,
east coast of Canada, and he was fishing out
of season, and so he was charged. with fishing
out of season and he said i've got treaty rights
that give me the right to fish anytime i want
and that went all the way up to the supreme court
of canada and they found that yes actually these
treaty rights from 1760s um uh were still valid
and so wow there was a flash point there were
some other things that happened in those uh in
years around that decision. But that was an important
decision. That was 25 years ago this week. Wow.
Amazing. And I, you know, I think when people
hear that, I think sometimes they think, well,
what's the implications of that? Maybe they'll
be overfishing. But in all honesty, I've never
heard of an Indigenous community not looking
after. the wildlife or the territory that we're
responsible. Because you talk about seven generations,
right? That you are holding something for future
generations as opposed to how much I can take
out of it. Because if we talk about the Grand
Banks of Newfoundland with all the cod, and I
guess, you know, when the Vikings arrived, okay,
while the indigenous communities were there,
there was no issue with fish. They were there.
The Vikings arrived. They were happy. And then
when the European settlers came back, they found
the fishing was unbelievable. And then I think
20 or 30 years ago, there was basically no fish
and they had to shut it down because we fished
it out, which is crazy. Well, in this particular
issue, subsequent court decisions have pared
back a little bit, so it's not total free reign,
you can fish any time you want, and conservation
has been recognized as a valid concern of the
governments, and Indigenous communities are just
as interested in conservation. But it was a recognition
of treaty rights, and more and more treaty rights
are being recognized. all the time some big decisions
recently uh around the country again recognizing
treaty rights uh that have not been uh lived
up to um over the years it's a big big issue
the government is is facing well that comes back
to canada is a parliamentary democracy but we
have a supreme court and we have a constitution
charter rights and freedoms which is enshrined
these he's right so this issue is is not going
away okay in fact it's being resolved so there
will be clarity and we know how the outcomes
will be these these rights will be respected
but the other thing to mention is uh is what
happened right at the beginning of the summer
in in yukon there was uh the eagle mine which
was owned by Victoria Gold, TSX company. Right.
And they had had some problems earlier this year,
but their heap leaching had collapsed, and there
was a landslide of rocks and cyanide onto the
local. land which include creeks and total disaster.
So Victoria Gold went from a very promising gold
company when it was put into receivership this
summer because it could not manage this disaster.
And now the Yukon government has taken over and
Victoria Gold is sadly in receivership and local
communities are trying to deal with the aftermath.
of this environmental disaster. And I get, I
mean, that is just a disaster, because there's
no assets, you know, they've taken over, but
there's the cleanup in what you can't clean,
because when these disasters happen, they've
destroyed an environment. Yeah, it's a reminder
of how important some of these environmental
laws and issues are. Yes. So these projects sometimes
can go wrong, and the local communities are the
ones who are going to bear the most cost. And
so, yeah, we're thinking about everybody in and
around that Eagle Mine at the moment. Yes. Terrible
situation. So what about coming up for the next...
few months is that projects coming to fruition.
You know, the economy continues to grow. Indigenous
investments remain important. So I think we're
just going to have more and more deals to talk
to over the next weeks and months. We've got
some great guests lined up on our podcast coming
up that we're going to be talking to, which is
really exciting. And then I guess we'll... We'll
perhaps regroup and do another. Here's the news
from the current month we're in or from the next
month. Anyway, great to be here in McCarthy's
offices in the City of London on a Friday. So
we're the only two people in the city. But it's
been great to be with you again, Rob, and I'm
glad you had a good summer. Good to see you too,
Mark. I'm looking forward to... to more discussions
with really interesting Indigenous leaders. I
know we've got Chief Terry Smith lined up in
a few weeks. We talked about Ernie Daniels, First
Nations Financial Authority, and some other really
interesting guests to talk about the deals that
they are doing. Yes, really exciting. Thanks
for joining us on this episode of Drumbeats.
We hope our discussion has shed light on how
Indigenous -led ventures are setting new standards
for investment and sustainability. Stay tuned
for more insights in the forces driving change
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