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Hello swimmers and welcome back to the pool party.

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It's been a damn long minute since we last talked,

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so I'm so stoked to be able to share with you today

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a podcast episode that I recorded in December with India.

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India is an art director,

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a graphic designer living in New York City.

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She graduated from Parsons School of Design

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and has a background in computer science.

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She is an all-around creative who follows her intuition,

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loves Pilates, and previously interned with Rick Owens.

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So I'm stoked to bring you this conversation with India.

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And before we dive in,

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I wanna give you a little personal update,

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but since it's been a minute,

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I do wanna give you a live update.

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I think especially after listening to this episode,

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I've decided to go to New York and I've planned my own trip.

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So as of right now, I'm planning on being in New York City,

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crashing in Brooklyn from March 26 to early April.

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I don't have a date yet when I'm coming back to Boise,

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but I will be.

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At the moment, I am leaning on friends,

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other artists and creatives

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who wanna do a design tour network

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and essentially explore the joy of the city

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without really having to move

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and live there for a long period of time.

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So that's where I'm at right now.

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I am going through changes in work at the moment

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and really trying to find joy in my work,

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cut out the things that are seriously sucking my energy.

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And it's not always easy.

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I have to taper these things out.

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I have to DJ my life.

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And so that's something I've been thinking about

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and editing these podcasts and listening to India

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just reinforce how important this is for me.

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So I hope you enjoy listening today.

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And if you have any suggestions or comments on the podcast,

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please let me know.

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I'm going to start posting these on Substack as well.

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So if you would like to follow me on Substack,

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you absolutely can.

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My Substack is available in the bio

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and you can also find me with my username at JulesPools,

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J-U-L-E-S-P-O-O-L-S.

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And of course, if you're looking for design art

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for your business as an artist, creative designer,

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writer, podcaster, et cetera,

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you can find my work at JuliaEspero.me,

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J-U-L-I-A-E-S-P-E-R-O.me.

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Okay, let's dive into today's episode.

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Welcome to the pool party.

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I'm so excited to have India on today.

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She is a art director and India would love for you

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to tell me a little bit about your background

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and what got you into art direction.

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Hi Jules, thanks for having me.

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I started at the beginning of this year, January 2024

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to freelance.

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I have a background in fashion marketing.

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I studied an associate's degree

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at Parsons School of Design in New York.

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That's what got me to New York

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and I'm now currently living in New York.

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I wanted to go into more like art direction

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and creative direction for fashion brands

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or fashion campaigns.

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But then when I was looking for a job,

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other opportunities popped up

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and I started doing way more graphic design,

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which is something that I've always been interested in,

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especially layout design.

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But life takes unexpected ways

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and now I find myself doing so much branding

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and brand image.

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So yeah, in between graphic design and art direction,

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I also love to curate the brand image

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in terms of art direction.

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Now I'm figuring out where I wanna go from here.

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I don't think I wanna be in graphic design

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for a long time.

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I think I'm leaning more into the art direction field.

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I was looking at the work you did for Isla Pilates.

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So tell me a little bit about that branding

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and the brand overall

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and how you got involved with this Pilates studio.

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It was like a project that I did

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like literally finished two weeks ago.

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And it's one of the projects I'm most proud of.

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So for reference, for the audience branding,

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I decided like logo, the whole look and feel,

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photography and colors for this Pilates studio

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that's gonna open in Rome in 2025.

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The girl who founded Isla Pilates,

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I met her in New York inside a club.

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We initially connected because she was working

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in a company that I wanted to work in.

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She moved back to Rome and called me

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because she wanted to open a Pilates studio.

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The whole idea was that she went back to Rome

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and there was no Pilates studio like the ones in New York.

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She's like, I wanna build something that is cooler

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and it has a luxury experience that we have in New York.

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I wanna build a community and bring all those things

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that a New York Pilates studio has to Rome.

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I was really excited about the project.

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This is my first project in Italy.

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It was big for me.

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I've been working mostly with clients based in New York.

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When I get passionate about something,

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it's so easy to get ideas out.

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I have my whole archive of photos and modes.

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I selected a specific mode

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and put it together.

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The whole part of the branding is this dot system

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because I found this dotted font on Adobe.

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I was like, this is so cool.

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I can create a whole language with these dots.

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That's the overarching theme.

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With the founder, she was like,

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I want a very elegant font to go with it.

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Then it's a play of putting all those pieces together

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and make it work with the mood and the dots

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and the elegance and give that feeling

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that she wants it to be looks very modern

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and something completely new to Rome.

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Mm-hmm.

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Which club did you meet at?

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It's called Outer Heaven.

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And it's in downtown Manhattan.

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I opened two years ago.

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It's a very small club.

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I've never been before.

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I used to live in Brooklyn and around Manhattan,

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but I haven't been back to New York in two years.

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So Outer Heaven is, that's good to know.

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That's the thing about New York, it changes so much every year.

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I want to ask you about your experience in New York

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because I know that you lived here.

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I did some internships in New York prior to the pandemic.

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I think 2016 was the first year I was in New York.

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I could get a room in Soho for $700.

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And it was insane.

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I lived above, I think it's called the Grey Dog in Soho.

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It was really lovely.

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I would go to hot yoga and hot Pilates

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in the Lower East Side like every day,

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and then just go to galleries.

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I was interning at this nonprofit called

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Storefront for Art and Architecture.

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This little pizza slice gallery in Soho.

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But they do these really cool architecture activations.

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A lot of the people I worked with were European post grads.

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I think they just wanted to spend the summer in New York.

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They were fun to hang around and they were always late to work.

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They were always late to work.

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Yeah, and then I lived in Bushwick one summer,

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which was probably like 2017.

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That was a great experience too.

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I just went out a lot elsewhere, some of the typical suspects.

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And there was like some warehouse clubs too.

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I would meet people on Tinder back then

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and they would just tell me to like some random address.

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And then there was a band playing or something.

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So that was kind of fun.

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I love that.

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Yeah, New York, I feel like everybody tells me

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I came here after the pandemic.

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So I never really got to see it before.

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And everybody tells me it was so different.

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And the city has changed a lot, but I wouldn't know.

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I came here in 2022.

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I want to know, where do you meet people these days?

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For work, outside of work, what is there to do?

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Right now, I live in New York and my routine has changed a lot

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since I first arrived here.

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Right now, I go to this yoga studio every day,

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which is called SkyTang.

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I've been going there since I arrived,

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because I knew them from before.

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And I was doing their online platform before.

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And when I moved to New York, I was so happy to go in person.

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And I'm really big on yoga.

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I just do it every day.

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I go there every day.

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And it's such an incredible community.

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I know the teachers.

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I know other members and a lot of my clients.

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I got through SkyTang just from talking to people

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and being connected to other people.

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And then this yoga studio, there's a lot of creatives

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that go there.

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So sometimes, I need to connect to another creative.

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For example, one time, I connected with this girl

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that did the website for SkyTang that I really admired.

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She has a creative agency.

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And I DMed her on Instagram.

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And I was like, hey, I know you did the SkyTang website.

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You want to come to a class with me and then get a coffee?

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And that's literally what we did.

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And then she connected me to other people.

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So for me, that space has been incredible.

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And from thing, another thing gets born.

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And it just never ends.

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That's one place where I meet a lot of people.

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Then I have my brother lives in the city as well.

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And he's super, super social.

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He introduced me to a lot of people.

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When I first arrived to New York,

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so that's like another whole community,

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which is more European that I get to meet.

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That's the amazing thing about Instagram

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is that we're all so connected

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and we all know what each other does.

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And the crazy thing is when you go to a proposal,

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someone you want to text,

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and you see all the other people that are linked to them,

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it's so easy to text one of these people and be like,

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hey, I know you know him.

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Can you like hook me up for work?

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Especially, I do that a lot.

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Like on Instagram, email,

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I try to network with a lot of people I admire.

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People don't get about networking

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is that it should feel fun.

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And it's also nice to do it

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through people you know already.

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It's not like you have to be on LinkedIn

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and talking to a void or something,

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which you could do,

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but I think sometimes it doesn't land very well.

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I don't really use LinkedIn.

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And I think in the creative field,

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Instagram is what has worked for me the most.

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And also emails,

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you go on a website of someone

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and I literally did it two weeks ago.

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This guy did this branding project that I loved.

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He's Australian, like completely different worlds.

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And I wrote to him,

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I was like, your project is just incredible.

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It was the best start of my morning.

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And he replied,

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I asked him, I would love to talk to you

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because motion design is something I wanna get into.

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He was so happy about it.

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And I was like, I'm so happy it resonates.

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Let's find some time to chat.

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We're humans and we're meant to connect.

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It doesn't have to be so scary.

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I'm looking at Skyting, their website too.

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I really love it.

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Who's a creative director of this website?

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Like the creative direction of Skyting.

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I think it's more from the founder.

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And then the website was developed by Human New York City,

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which is this creative agency specialized in web development

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and the founder, Rachel,

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she's the most kind human being ever.

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So nice.

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She connected me with other creators

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00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,200
and people in her team and just so kind.

264
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,280
Is your brother Luigi?

265
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,280
Yeah, and I texted him.

266
00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,200
Yeah, we were the same class at Stamps.

267
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,040
I was in New York.

268
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,240
I was actually, I think we went out like a big group of us,

269
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,040
but I definitely have hung out actually at his apartment

270
00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,040
while he was DJing.

271
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:26,520
So that's so fun.

272
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,360
So random, I texted him this morning,

273
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,080
like a juice, I think she was here in Stamps.

274
00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,400
But yeah, and he was like, yeah, I remember her,

275
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,080
but he's not here right now.

276
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,760
Tell me about some of your favorite work experiences

277
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,160
because I saw that you did an internship at Rick Owens.

278
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,960
I feel like that is like a dream for some people.

279
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:48,800
How was that?

280
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,800
Yeah, that was the best time ever.

281
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,960
At that time I was in university.

282
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,280
I was in Milan.

283
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,680
I did my bachelor in business economics and computer

284
00:11:58,680 --> 00:11:59,840
science.

285
00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:05,840
And my last year of uni, I was like, I hate this.

286
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,560
I'm going to finish this because I cannot finish something.

287
00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:10,480
But I was like, this is a lot.

288
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,880
And I didn't love my class.

289
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,800
And it was just like not my ideal environment.

290
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,800
So I was like, I want to work and study on my own

291
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,200
and just take my exams.

292
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,400
I really pushed for that.

293
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,440
And so my last year of uni, I tried

294
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,840
to look for an internship to do full time.

295
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,600
And I always loved the fashion world.

296
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,440
And through my father that was working in the fashion world,

297
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,360
I managed to get an interview with the Rick Owens

298
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,320
shop in Milan where they had e-commerce as well.

299
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,000
In the Milan store, they have the retail store.

300
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,280
And then they would have the e-commerce in the office

301
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,240
behind the shooting.

302
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,200
And I had an interview, and it was just the perfect timing

303
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,480
where they were looking for someone to help out.

304
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,760
It's extra hand, like pure internship,

305
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,440
like whatever needed to get done.

306
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:01,440
I was going to do it.

307
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,680
And it was the best I've ever.

308
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:08,280
Like, I would wake up in the morning, and there are 10,

309
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,360
and you had to be dressed fully Rick Owens, which is,

310
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,440
it was one of my favorite brands since I was a kid

311
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,320
because my father used to have a shop, like a women's wear shop,

312
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:19,680
and he used to sell Rick Owens.

313
00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:22,160
I was in love with Rick Owens since I was eight.

314
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,920
And yeah, it was really a dream come true.

315
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,480
I was doing a lot of back end e-commerce,

316
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,400
using my computer science skills and coding, updating

317
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,480
their supplies.

318
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,160
But then I would also do some retail in store

319
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,560
because it's a luxury experience when

320
00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:40,680
you go to a Rick Owens store.

321
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:44,520
So they need to have one sales assistant per customer that

322
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,040
comes in.

323
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,520
So sometimes we would run out of people,

324
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,400
and I would have to be a sales assistant.

325
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,160
And it was super flexible and fun.

326
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,320
And the people in there are always so eclectic,

327
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,560
and I loved it.

328
00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:58,280
One thing I love that you mentioned

329
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,320
is that you did not start out in fashion or graphic design

330
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,200
at all.

331
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:09,000
So you went into your education studying computer science,

332
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,680
and you just realized it wasn't for you.

333
00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:13,720
Is that basically what happened?

334
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,600
Yeah, I think it was a slow process.

335
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,080
When I was finishing my bachelor in computer science,

336
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,640
the first six months of my last year,

337
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,040
I did the internship at Rick Owens.

338
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:29,160
And then the second part of the year, I did an exchange program

339
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,600
and I went to Australia with the school.

340
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,640
And I had to pick courses, of course,

341
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,560
that would fulfill my remaining credits in computer science

342
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:40,200
or business.

343
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:41,720
And then I had a bunch of credits

344
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,400
that were choose what you want and an elective.

345
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,840
And so I picked this visual communication design class.

346
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,160
And I had to sell it to the university like, oh,

347
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,320
this can be part of my marketing side of my degree.

348
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:57,960
But they accepted it, so I ended up

349
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,560
doing this very creative course in Australia,

350
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,000
which was part of the art school, completely unrelated

351
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,360
from my bachelor and what I was studying.

352
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,880
And that's when I fell in love with graphic design.

353
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,240
And it was this specific project of layout designs or designing

354
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,920
a magazine that made me think, wait, I can actually do this

355
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,120
as a job.

356
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,200
I would always collect and read magazines, especially fashion

357
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,840
or lifestyle magazines.

358
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,280
And I never thought about who's behind this, who's actually

359
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,240
putting all these elements together, the text,

360
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,200
the pictures, and deciding how it comes out.

361
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,840
And that was the first time that I was like, oh, wait,

362
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,400
this is a job.

363
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,480
But then when I came back from Australia,

364
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,440
I took some gap months, and I was traveling so much.

365
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,240
And then I came back to Europe, and I

366
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,200
was looking for a job in the fashion.

367
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,280
So I'm trying to pivot in marketing, but fashion industry.

368
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,360
And I didn't find anything.

369
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,960
And then this opportunity came up in a consulting firm,

370
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,360
and I was going to do marketing.

371
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,640
And I was like, OK, that's close enough to what I want to do.

372
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,640
And I feel like the opportunity was so good.

373
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,440
They were going to put me in a very good position.

374
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:13,600
It was not an internship.

375
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,760
I would start a proper full-time job,

376
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,280
and I was going to fill up this role that this lady that

377
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:20,720
went on maternity leave.

378
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,320
And I was like, I can't say no to this.

379
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:23,480
This is a great opportunity.

380
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,120
So I started doing that, even if it wasn't fashion,

381
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,680
even if it wasn't creative and COVID hit.

382
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,640
And I was in that job for two years and a half.

383
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,480
And I think it was the best case scenario.

384
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,440
I learned so much, and it was more of a corporate environment,

385
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,760
even if it was a boutique agency.

386
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,000
Learned so much about marketing, and then ended up

387
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,200
doing some computer science stuff and customer relationship

388
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,280
management and Salesforce.

389
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,200
I went back to the computer science things.

390
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,640
And then after two years and a half, I was like, I'm done.

391
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,200
Yeah, and it's nice because you don't ever lose your skills.

392
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,320
And sometimes they come in handy.

393
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,480
I think sometimes people think you

394
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,560
have to really follow through with what you choose

395
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,640
to study as an undergrad.

396
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,680
There's really more options for getting more education,

397
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,920
like you did, or asking your program

398
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,480
to allow you to take another course and count it.

399
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,400
Coming from the Bay Area tech scene,

400
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:28,200
so many people are dead set on going into tech or consulting.

401
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,160
And for me, after school, I was like,

402
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,040
I'm going to try doing this graphic design

403
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:34,080
boot camp in New York.

404
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,720
That was really healing for me because it

405
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,440
was just so totally different.

406
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,920
So many more people were like, why would I

407
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,920
want to do tech or whatever?

408
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,560
I want to do traditional print or advertising.

409
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,200
And then sometimes there's ways of doing social media.

410
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,640
That's a little bit of both, and you

411
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,200
can bring in that coding computer science side.

412
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,320
Yeah, and you know what's funny too is when I was at Stanford,

413
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,280
a lot of people also sometimes, they

414
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,680
would want to take graphic design or computer science

415
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:09,600
classes, but it was hard to find hands-on projects that really

416
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,200
married both of them together.

417
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,200
So I think when I see someone with your background,

418
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,720
it's really fun and encouraging because you

419
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,760
found so many cool fashion gigs through your network

420
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,120
and made all your skills apply.

421
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:24,440
When I finished my job at the consulting firm,

422
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,680
I was trying to get into a fashion firm,

423
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,600
doing what I was doing before.

424
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,520
But I was trying to start a formula to pivot.

425
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,040
And then I wanted to go back to school

426
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,880
and do something I really loved.

427
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,800
And then I wanted to move to New York

428
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,960
because my brother was here, and I saw it,

429
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,160
and I was like, wait, this is where I have to be.

430
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:44,720
And putting all those things together,

431
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,240
I ended up applying to Parsons.

432
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:52,320
And for me, the way that I got into the creative field

433
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,720
was actually like, OK, I have a very strong,

434
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,640
scientific business background.

435
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,680
Let me pair it with something extremely creative.

436
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,800
Parsons was only project-based, only producing, being

437
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,600
creative, which is really hard when someone is coming

438
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,680
from a completely different background.

439
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,840
And now I feel like I'm equipped with these two things.

440
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,480
And I'm honestly just working on the creative side.

441
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,160
And I think it's going to be fun at one point

442
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,360
to try and see how they put these two things together.

443
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:24,120
And I don't know.

444
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:25,760
I had ideas before.

445
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,560
Maybe coding websites could be a very cool thing.

446
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,680
I had a similar thought recently because I

447
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,760
went from doing a lot of theory, a lot of hard science,

448
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,640
or even social science at times, to then going

449
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,040
into graphic design or art direction.

450
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,920
It's essentially like a trade.

451
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,880
And I don't think a lot of people think about it

452
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,320
that way, but there's a process to it.

453
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,440
It's very much like project-based,

454
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,440
like deadline-oriented.

455
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,400
And I just thought that the people I went to school with

456
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,960
would oftentimes think about art as really free-flowing.

457
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,600
Realistically, when you're in the industry,

458
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,200
it cannot be like that.

459
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,680
You will not survive in a project-based environment.

460
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,400
But I'm also seeing now, so over the past few years,

461
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,360
a lot of fashion tech.

462
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:17,200
And I've seen a few folks trying to start fashion tech

463
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,240
companies.

464
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,360
And I also saw that you have this Fashion in Web3 project

465
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:23,440
on your website.

466
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,720
I want to hear your thoughts on Web3 and fashion,

467
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,960
and maybe a little bit more about this project as well.

468
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,920
Yeah, I feel like it goes in waves, right?

469
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,280
I feel like there was a surge in fashion tech

470
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,720
at Copernicus that this tool.

471
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,480
Now I don't even remember, but they tried to introduce this.

472
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,960
I don't even remember what it was.

473
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,280
It looked like an iPod.

474
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,520
I think that goes in surges in even fashion and Web3.

475
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,160
It was big a year and a half ago,

476
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,760
where fashion brands would create costumes for video games

477
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:56,680
on Web3.

478
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,520
Everybody was talking about blockchain,

479
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,560
and they would put their products on the blockchain

480
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,760
as a certificate of authenticity.

481
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,800
And all these things, and now it's died, right?

482
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,880
Nobody's really talking about it.

483
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,160
I don't know when that's going to happen,

484
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,200
if it's ever going to happen.

485
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,400
Fashion is such a creative outlet for people,

486
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,680
and you don't want it to be complicated.

487
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,920
People are really scared about technology,

488
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:26,760
and it takes so long to accept the new technology

489
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,720
for a whole community to accept these changes.

490
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,560
And fashion is such a pleasure, or it's such a,

491
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,520
oh, let me put on this, because this is the image that I

492
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,640
want to give to other people.

493
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,280
And you don't want to put too much thought in it.

494
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,400
And fashion and Web3, my project that I did was more like,

495
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,920
I want to see.

496
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,440
Because I thought maybe that's how I'm going to put these two

497
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,800
things together, like computer science and fashion.

498
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,000
Maybe that's the space I need to go to.

499
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,440
So I didn't know, and it was a very fun project.

500
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,080
When I had to present it, everybody was like,

501
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,200
question marks on their faces, because they're like,

502
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:05,720
what is Web3?

503
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:06,520
Oh, I see.

504
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,560
And was this in a fashion context?

505
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:09,880
Yeah, it was in my class.

506
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,800
I had to present it, and everybody was like,

507
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,240
what the hell?

508
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,920
That was exactly the point.

509
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,960
For me, it was like, I want to explain Web3 to fashion people

510
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,440
and how you can use a profession.

511
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,440
So literally, the first chapter, that's

512
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,440
like a 50 pages book right away.

513
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,160
It was like a huge project.

514
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:28,800
Nice work.

515
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,920
That's not an easy feat.

516
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,440
But it was so interesting, right?

517
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,480
When something is interesting, it's so easy.

518
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,560
It's just like the deeper.

519
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:43,360
And I think there's so many spaces where Web3

520
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:45,560
can be cool for fashion.

521
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,400
And I think Nike is doing that so much.

522
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,320
There's Nike Virtual Studios.

523
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,880
They're ever evolving to see what works, what resonates.

524
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,680
And they have this immense budget to do that.

525
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,400
And it's like the playground, and they're

526
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,880
testing so many things like, oh, let's see

527
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,440
how it works in video games.

528
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,880
Or let's see how we can build a community with a blockchain

529
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:15,480
app or have VIP products for our members that connect their wallets

530
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:16,800
to our app.

531
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,200
I think if there's someone that is going to maybe come out

532
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,080
with a nice solution or something that resonates

533
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,840
with the public, it's maybe going to be Nike.

534
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,720
But right now, I feel like nobody really cares.

535
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:29,440
I know.

536
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,080
It's so hard.

537
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,000
To your point, fashion is so fun.

538
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,640
And even for me lately in my art practice,

539
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,920
I'm just trying to find more joy.

540
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,560
Because I got really deep into Web3 as well

541
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,600
over the past few years.

542
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,120
And there is very little excitement these days, I think.

543
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,840
I just took on a commission with a DAO, which

544
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,440
is the first project I've done in two years.

545
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,000
That gives me a little bit of hope.

546
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,920
But it's just a creative project for Zine

547
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,880
to compile some of the work that their artists have been doing.

548
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,040
Yeah, so I'm like, OK, I love that.

549
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,600
But again, the budget is not huge for it.

550
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,640
There's a lot of these little underground things happening.

551
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,040
I don't know if it's exactly going

552
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,760
to be the groundbreaking innovation that a lot of people

553
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,080
have been saying.

554
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,560
Maybe it just takes several years.

555
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,120
And on a personal level, I just want to have a giggle sometimes.

556
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:30,040
Yeah, the overarching idea of Web3 is what I'm attracted to.

557
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,160
In terms of creatives, they're trying

558
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:37,120
to give back real ownership to what you put out there.

559
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,600
So in the Web3 environment, whatever I post,

560
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,280
it's going to have a timestamp.

561
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,480
So whatever I post, then it's going

562
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,280
to have that attached to it, my credentials.

563
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,240
And then nowadays, it's like when

564
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,480
you use Pinterest or Instagram, there's

565
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,960
so much that gets screen-shotted and reposted

566
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,760
without crediting the original owner.

567
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,400
That's what Web3 is trying to fix.

568
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,280
Because on Web3, that's not going to be possible, ideally.

569
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,360
Now, that I don't know if in practice it's already a thing.

570
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:09,600
But I think there are so many concepts of Web3

571
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,040
which are so good, especially for creatives,

572
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,040
and trying to give back the rights to creatives that are not

573
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,120
ever credited enough.

574
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,400
I feel like you never really know

575
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,600
who is behind a certain project.

576
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:25,760
So many times, I go on.

577
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,280
Especially online.

578
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,640
You can so easily rip a JPEG from Pinterest and post it.

579
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,800
But you don't have a chain of who made it.

580
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:36,280
Exactly.

581
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:37,080
And that's important.

582
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,880
And so many times, I go on websites.

583
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,520
And I'm like, oh, who made this website?

584
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,320
A lot of times, it's not even credited.

585
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,480
Or I look at a campaign.

586
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:46,880
I'm like, oh, who's the photographer?

587
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:47,520
Who's the model?

588
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,600
They're never tagged in any picture.

589
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:50,720
They're just the image.

590
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:51,520
They're part of it.

591
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:51,920
It's made of them.

592
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:52,200
Yeah.

593
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,080
It's like, literally, they're making this image.

594
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,240
And your brand, for you to not credit them, it's so weird.

595
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,840
So I think that we need more of that philosophy.

596
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,640
We're giving back the light to creatives

597
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,600
who's actually behind a certain project.

598
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,000
In your ideal world, what kind of projects

599
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,520
would you take on next?

600
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,400
And what would you contribute to them?

601
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,640
That's a very interesting question.

602
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,200
Because I feel like I've been so lucky to constantly have

603
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,920
projects that I never really sat down and asked myself

604
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,160
this question.

605
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:30,080
I think I'm trying to maybe do more art direction rather

606
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,760
than graphic design.

607
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,920
I feel like at some point, I want

608
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,840
to collaborate with other people.

609
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,680
Maybe my ideal next project would be actually

610
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,120
with someone else, because I find myself working alone

611
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:43,560
most of the time.

612
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,240
I do collaborate with founders, because most of my clients

613
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,160
are small entrepreneurs.

614
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,160
I present ideas, and they give me feedback.

615
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,000
And we go from there.

616
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,520
It's a very collaborative approach.

617
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,360
But I never really work with another creative.

618
00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:57,640
Maybe I give a design, and they twitch,

619
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,000
and then they give it back to me.

620
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,840
Or someone that I do the art direction,

621
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,480
and they do the graphic design.

622
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,200
So I think my ideal next project is

623
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,720
find a way to have more of a team of creatives to work with

624
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,680
and see how that works.

625
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,400
I'd be down to collab if you ever want.

626
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,840
That's a great thing about meeting so many people

627
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,040
in this field, right?

628
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,080
I'm thinking about having a bit of a team around me

629
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,240
so that when I have a project, and you do illustration,

630
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,320
and I love your illustrations, you can't draw at all.

631
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,560
Some projects, I'm like, I wish I had an illustrator

632
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,760
to make an illustration that evokes this feeling.

633
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,760
Or I'm thinking of a logo that is hand-drawn.

634
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,160
For me, it's really hard to do it.

635
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,040
And I would commission it or work with someone else.

636
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,000
Yeah, that's probably the next thing I would want to do.

637
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,760
One of the things you mentioned is working alone.

638
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,480
I freelance, but I also am at an independent studio

639
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,080
a few days out of the week,

640
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,800
just because it's been such a nice switch up.

641
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,680
What do you do when you're working on projects?

642
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,240
Do you stay in the apartment?

643
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,120
Do you go to a co-working space?

644
00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:03,160
What works for you?

645
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,240
I do a mix.

646
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,520
I usually do half day in my apartment and half day,

647
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,240
I can't do a whole day at home

648
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,080
because home is where I eat and sleep.

649
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,600
I don't want it to be my office that much.

650
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,560
Now I'm so used to working alone

651
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,240
that I'm maybe scared to have other people around me

652
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,520
that are going to distract me because I got so used to it.

653
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:32,120
But I feel like I currently don't know good co-working.

654
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:35,080
And none of my friends ever told me

655
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,000
about a good co-working space.

656
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,360
Everybody that I know that is working from home

657
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,080
is actually working from home.

658
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,360
I wish maybe Soho House was more of a real community

659
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,360
where you can actually connect with people.

660
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,800
I feel like I never really talked to anyone there.

661
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,560
I was going to ask you if you like it

662
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,920
because I hear mixed reviews about Soho House these days.

663
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,640
People are like, oh, it's so different.

664
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,640
Exactly, like for working, it's an amazing space.

665
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,320
It's beautiful inside and you have great Wi-Fi

666
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,240
and you can order food.

667
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,160
I concentrate so much when I go there

668
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,320
because I just sit with my computer and stay there hours.

669
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,040
I just wish maybe more like people were more open

670
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,200
and knowing other people.

671
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,120
I don't know how you can make that happen

672
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,960
so that people are more eager to actually talk to each other.

673
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,800
I also don't go a lot, like I never go to the events.

674
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,840
So maybe that's me getting so involved.

675
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,000
That was how Soho House was born, right?

676
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,000
It was like a place for creatives.

677
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,560
I don't think that's it anymore.

678
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,200
I think there's some independent co-working spaces

679
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,080
in New York.

680
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,160
I hear a lot about those in LA too.

681
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,800
I feel like we're also like in this weird period

682
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,800
where I think some people are still stuck in like 2020

683
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,880
work from homeland and then there are other people

684
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,920
who go out to events, but then it's maybe a third

685
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,240
of the people who used to.

686
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,000
So it's still not quite popping.

687
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,400
This is something I wanted to ask you.

688
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,080
How do you find working independently

689
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,960
versus working in an agency?

690
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,760
What are the differences?

691
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,360
What's it for you?

692
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,560
It's so nice to have freedom with what projects you take on

693
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,160
as an independent.

694
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,440
And there was a period during 2020

695
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,040
where I was freelancing with an agency, which is great

696
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,520
because it gave me a steady stream of projects,

697
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,120
my hourly rate.

698
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,200
Back then it was like 60 an hour as well.

699
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,840
But then I would also take on projects

700
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,680
that the agency just wouldn't give me

701
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,720
because I was working with a social media agency

702
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,440
that did like a lot of celebrity, Instagram content creation.

703
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,320
And I was like, oh, I wanna do some branding and like logos.

704
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:40,880
So I had to do that on my own

705
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,240
if I really wanted to go very deep into a brand book.

706
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,320
I think juggling both of that was challenging.

707
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,360
And so eventually left the agency and pursued my own work.

708
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,680
And this is the challenging part because during this time,

709
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,560
I also moved to Maui for three years.

710
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,160
So I was in Hawaii working independently.

711
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,760
At that time, one of my struggles was working on my own

712
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,320
is totally fine, but doing it from an island

713
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,000
in a not creative space.

714
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:10,840
New York is so different.

715
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,520
You can go out and find a ton of creatives

716
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:13,960
and get inspiration.

717
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,400
But for me, a lot of the people who'd be working from home

718
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,120
if I went to a coffee shop or like in the tech industry

719
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,920
or like 20 years older,

720
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,040
I ended up eventually coming back to the mainland

721
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,800
because it's actually just so many more people

722
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,760
my age group who are at this phase in their life.

723
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,280
And I felt like I needed more camaraderie around that.

724
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,920
But I think there are ways to get community

725
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,400
outside of working at an agency

726
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,040
because agencies are so fast paced.

727
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,680
And I don't know what the industry is right now

728
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,960
because I'm at an independent studio.

729
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,600
So it's like just the right amount of work for me

730
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,080
three days a week.

731
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,840
And I get to work on a lot of different projects too,

732
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,480
like branding or at the moment,

733
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,640
I'm also helping my boss set up a podcast

734
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,800
and a quarterly zine where we work with local artists

735
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,920
and then bring them in the studio and do a pop-up.

736
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,880
So it's a lot more interactive and I love that

737
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,880
because I'm a very social person.

738
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,400
I guess the other part I learned too

739
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,680
is that some of these soft skills

740
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,240
like talking to people, throwing events,

741
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,840
it's not a very common skill to have.

742
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,480
I just don't think I could do

743
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,640
work from home corporate environment again.

744
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,680
I've thought about it many times.

745
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,760
There's a trade-off where you get a certain amount

746
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,480
of stability and benefits, but then it's also,

747
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,720
it's not like that job is secure.

748
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,160
There's just so much more freedom

749
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,440
in choosing your own project.

750
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:33,680
It's harder for sure.

751
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,520
And also might be harder because of where I'm at right now.

752
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,440
I live in Boise, Idaho.

753
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,840
So I have to go out and seek projects.

754
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,920
It's not quite as easy as I think it would be in New York,

755
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,440
but that is one of my hurdles

756
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,800
and something that I like that trade-off.

757
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,800
I never really thought about the location of everything.

758
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,360
Maybe here in New York is easier

759
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,440
because a lot of my clients are word of mouth.

760
00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,520
They go somewhere and I'm like,

761
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,720
oh yeah, I'm a graphic designer.

762
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,040
And they'll remember that either a friend of theirs

763
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:04,760
would connect me or they'll be like,

764
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,520
actually I have this project I'm working on

765
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,000
that you could help me with.

766
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,200
So yeah, I never really thought about the location

767
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,720
and maybe that changes the way you wanna work,

768
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,240
if you wanna work at an agency or you don't.

769
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,280
I think traveling for work is essential

770
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,160
if you're freelancing.

771
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,160
Because I've also had friends who would travel all the time

772
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,520
like New York to LA and sometimes going out to Colorado

773
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,240
for concert projects.

774
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,000
If you're just talking to people

775
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,560
and letting them know what you do, that also works.

776
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,080
Maybe I should plan a trip to New York at some point.

777
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,080
Like this type thing.

778
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,280
Yeah, I know I haven't been back in so long.

779
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:45,280
I've been in Boise, Idaho since July.

780
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:46,840
And I was in LA before that.

781
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,760
LA is also not the best right now.

782
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,440
A lot of people are struggling in the industry

783
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:52,400
but people are still doing well.

784
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,160
I have friends who have studio jobs.

785
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:55,720
The enthusiasm is a little bit low.

786
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:56,960
Here in New York, it's great.

787
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,480
A lot of people are going with the freelancing route

788
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:00,800
which is exciting.

789
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,440
There's a surge in being independent,

790
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,680
being your own publisher, being your own boss.

791
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,880
Like even Substack, it's such a call

792
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,840
for being completely independent.

793
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:11,880
You don't want to publish me,

794
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,520
I'll publish myself on Substack.

795
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:14,720
But it goes well.

796
00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:18,360
I love that people just publish whatever they're thinking

797
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,240
about and make their own mini magazine.

798
00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:22,080
That's great.

799
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,200
That's incredible.

800
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,280
And it's the same way of being a freelancer.

801
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,040
I think at some point I do want to work at an agency.

802
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:31,840
I want to have that experience.

803
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,160
I want to know what it feels like, what it looks like.

804
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,440
I want to learn from other people.

805
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,080
It gets you a lot of exposure to big clients very quickly.

806
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,760
I think agencies are previously a little bit too

807
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,160
demanding of people's time,

808
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,240
but I'm hoping that with the changes over the past two years

809
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:53,720
we'll be a little bit more realistic.

810
00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:57,440
I heard stories from people pre 2020

811
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,360
who would work at an agency and make maybe like 40K salary

812
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:02,960
but they're going into work from like 8A.

813
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,160
And I'm like, in what world does that make sense?

814
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,320
Like monetarily?

815
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,400
It's still like that.

816
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,480
Yeah, okay.

817
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,280
Cause I'm like, I just don't think that makes sense really.

818
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,880
And I know that it's like good exposure at times,

819
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,880
but also it's like you have to prepare yourself for that.

820
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,080
Yeah.

821
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,800
I had an interview with this agency

822
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,840
and then I did a test for three days,

823
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:24,840
but I think it was fake.

824
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,080
I think they wanted my work for free for a week.

825
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,560
I'm not the only person to wish this happened

826
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,040
with the same agency.

827
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,480
It's this very elite, a fashion agency.

828
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,440
Everything aligns like plots of faking

829
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,600
that you're going to get in and use you for a week.

830
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:41,440
Because I was working on client projects.

831
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,720
There needs to be laws against that in my opinion.

832
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:47,400
Like, I have 30 laws against that.

833
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,360
But you have to sign an NGA

834
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,440
and like I was working on client projects

835
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,960
and of course they had big clients

836
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,520
and I fully produced for a week

837
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:57,960
and I was doing their hours.

838
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,320
So I was like working at night

839
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,280
and I didn't even have a contract in my hands

840
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,760
because I was hoping that at the end of this,

841
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:04,840
there would be a contract.

842
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,640
Just recently a friend of mine told me

843
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,160
that her friend happened the same with the same agency.

844
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,080
They had her working for a whole week

845
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,000
and she thought there was gonna be a contract at the end

846
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:14,920
and then there's not.

847
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,560
So I think there's definitely still some agencies

848
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,240
that are like that.

849
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:22,520
Definitely when I was applying that salaries

850
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,880
for people who are just starting

851
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,120
are super low in the creative field

852
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,640
and I think it's gonna be a good experience

853
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,000
if I do it at some point

854
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,160
and have the financial freedom to take a lower paying job

855
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,920
but get exposed to so many clients and new methods

856
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,720
and people who have been in the industry for so long.

857
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:43,720
I have friends who are like doing PhDs right now

858
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:47,360
and I think they make 40,000 for like research or something.

859
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,320
So I'm like, I don't think it's a horrible idea

860
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,480
if you can give it as an educational experience.

861
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,320
Exactly.

862
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,840
People take that sort of deal to go back to school.

863
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,960
So you get more portfolio projects.

864
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,520
Exactly, I see it like an educational thing,

865
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:03,920
like an internship.

866
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,320
Yeah, exactly.

867
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,120
Amazing.

868
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,160
What kind of projects are you working on now?

869
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,440
Can you tell me about them a little?

870
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,320
Yeah, I have one retainer client, which is Benchen

871
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,400
and I've been working with them there

872
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,840
that since I started freelancing, it's been a while

873
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,440
and it's always a different project.

874
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,280
It's so fun.

875
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,320
And that's what I love to be involved with in business

876
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,640
because I came in to do graphic design

877
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,000
but it's ever evolving.

878
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,080
And then she has a platform and community for women

879
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,440
and she teaches Kundalini.

880
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,240
She has like monthly memberships

881
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:41,320
for developing personal power, sensuality, vitality.

882
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,600
And she leads this like meditation every day.

883
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,920
It's a whole world and it's so beautiful.

884
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,680
I started practicing with her as well.

885
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,880
And it has helped me so much with my business

886
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,960
because she teaches those workshops.

887
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,600
I feel like when you are an entrepreneur,

888
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,520
it's also an internal journey.

889
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:00,840
You have to sell yourself.

890
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,320
You have to go through limiting beliefs and you have to,

891
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,760
or there's so many thoughts when you become

892
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,440
an entrepreneur that you have to go through

893
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,000
and like hear those steps that you have to get over.

894
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,360
And I think that solid meditation practice,

895
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,480
so like with her, I was able to like,

896
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,680
think go through them way, it was way easier.

897
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,960
But yeah, I'm working with her a lot, which I love

898
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,920
because it's a blend of what I like

899
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,320
and doing my work at the same time.

900
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,440
And I also got a new client,

901
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,080
which is in the acupuncture industry.

902
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,040
So I'm working with them.

903
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,080
They're starting out, they're building a brand.

904
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,920
Right now I'm working on their brand book

905
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,400
and gathering a bit of images.

906
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,320
I drew a new logo for them.

907
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:45,440
We're still the beginning.

908
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,000
I find the palette for the brand,

909
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,400
they didn't really have much.

910
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,520
And that's what I love is I keep attracting businesses

911
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,280
in fields that I'm really interested in.

912
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,520
It's so easy because I can resonate

913
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,720
with what they're trying to communicate.

914
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:01,560
Acupuncture is something that I do in this city

915
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,080
and that has helped me so much.

916
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,960
Their goal is to make acupuncture

917
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,000
part of everyone's health care, especially women,

918
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,640
because there's so much about hormones

919
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,760
that you can cure with acupuncture.

920
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,360
It helped me so much.

921
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,920
And it's so cool when I build a brand for them

922
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,240
that it's very cool and that attracts people

923
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:26,280
so that people start getting to know acupuncture

924
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,200
and start maybe integrating it.

925
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,680
They work with insurance companies

926
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,000
so that you can be covered.

927
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,520
It's such a beautiful project.

928
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,280
And for me, I love working on these kinds of things.

929
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,560
And so I'm really excited about this project

930
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,920
and where it's gonna go.

931
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,320
I love these projects with women's health care

932
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,040
and wellness in mind.

933
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,080
There's actually a ton of those I see lately

934
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,720
and that's fun for me, it's healing.

935
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:52,240
I just figured out the other day,

936
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:55,040
I was gathering my thoughts and I was like,

937
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,280
I've worked only with female-funded businesses

938
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,440
or queer clients.

939
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,840
It's beautiful, right?

940
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,040
Because I was about to get this client,

941
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:08,040
which was four male founders, and I had this meeting

942
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,560
and it felt so wrong.

943
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,160
I was like, I don't think I wanna get into this space.

944
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,520
And I was like, I'm just gonna say no.

945
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,800
And I think it was the first time I was saying no.

946
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,440
It was hard as a freelancer to be like,

947
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,360
I'm gonna reject the project.

948
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,640
But at the same time, I was having the first calls

949
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,880
with the acupuncture girls and I was like, you know what?

950
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,640
I'm gonna go with what feels best

951
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,400
because I don't wanna, I don't know.

952
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,120
It's hard to say no sometimes to projects,

953
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,120
but it took me a really long time to learn this.

954
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,560
Sometimes it saves you actually.

955
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,040
Something feels off energetically.

956
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,560
I don't know what it is, but there have been times

957
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,120
where I said yes to projects just for the money

958
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,480
and it ends up being a huge burden later on.

959
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,760
And I'm like, why would I say yes to this?

960
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,240
And then it's actually harder to get out later.

961
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:03,280
Yeah, totally.

962
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,760
I feel like that's something that Luigi taught me

963
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,200
because he was doing a lot of client-facing roles

964
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,280
and she was like, you need to fire bad clients.

965
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,600
Sometimes you just have to get rid of them

966
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,880
because it takes too much effort and too much of your time

967
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,160
to keep them on.

968
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,000
And so at that point, you're better off creating space

969
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,240
for something better.

970
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:26,480
Oh yeah, better stuff will come into it.

971
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,480
It starts costing you basically.

972
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,200
That's a good reminder.

973
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,080
Yeah, because I get to these points sometimes where I'm like,

974
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,640
I think I wanna make space for something else.

975
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,080
I might be at that point

976
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,080
with some of the projects in my life.

977
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:40,840
What are you working on right now?

978
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,800
Right now, I have this independent zine project

979
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,560
with the DAO I mentioned.

980
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:47,720
It's all online right now.

981
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:49,720
So what they want is to bring the experience

982
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:51,480
into a print format.

983
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,840
So I'm gonna design the zine for them.

984
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,040
And that is going to probably like a two month project.

985
00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:59,320
What else am I working on?

986
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:00,800
So then I'm also at the independent studio.

987
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,680
I've been doing a lot of zine projects lately,

988
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,200
which is interesting.

989
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,800
And I used to make a lot of zines in 2016 just for fun.

990
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,160
So I am personally trying to build out my work,

991
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,760
specifically working with podcasters, writers,

992
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,120
other artists.

993
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,120
And when you mentioned making websites

994
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,040
for other artists and creatives earlier,

995
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,240
that's something I felt really passionate about

996
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:27,880
because I've met a few artists recently

997
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,760
who they're so good at their practice,

998
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,560
whether that's watercolor or sculpture,

999
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,720
but they don't wanna spend their time working

1000
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:38,760
on their website or e-commerce site.

1001
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,520
So I think that's something I'm gonna try to build out more

1002
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,480
and see if I can at least get a few people on retainer

1003
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,000
and help them with their distribution.

1004
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,880
So that's something I'm planning out.

1005
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:49,760
And then other than that,

1006
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,680
there's a few things I do non-design related.

1007
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,480
I teach luxury, some really into the fitness space.

1008
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,280
Yeah, and I've been loving the gym scene out here too,

1009
00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:59,880
because I meet so many women

1010
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,320
who are like running their own businesses

1011
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,840
or involved in real estate, or they just need design.

1012
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,920
And I think that's been a great way for me to slow down

1013
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,200
because for a while I was saying yes,

1014
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:11,640
like all sorts of projects.

1015
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,800
I worked at an AI startup for a little bit.

1016
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,960
And I think I just got so removed from my creative process

1017
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,280
and why I like designing in the first place,

1018
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,520
doing things like my podcasts

1019
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,720
and taking on small projects with other creatives,

1020
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:29,360
working at the studio a few days a week,

1021
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:30,840
it's perfect for me.

1022
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,560
Yeah, and then come the new year,

1023
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:33,720
we'll see what else is out there.

1024
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:36,400
If something interesting will spark my attention.

1025
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,520
I was so surprised to see how many people

1026
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,800
actually need design services,

1027
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,240
especially if they're starting out,

1028
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:44,080
they can't just call up an agency

1029
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,000
because agencies are so expensive.

1030
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:46,840
They are.

1031
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,040
I think for a small agency,

1032
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,960
you have to put down at least five to 8,000,

1033
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,360
but for the website, it's probably gonna cost you 10,000.

1034
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:55,360
I never knew.

1035
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:56,680
And then when I started working,

1036
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,760
I realized that I had an audience for me

1037
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,000
and for what I was doing.

1038
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,480
It's like a completely different process.

1039
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,200
I think the benefit to work with a freelancer

1040
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,120
and how I saw myself is that

1041
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,320
you have this very close approach and I'm always there.

1042
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,920
You can call me up and we are meeting up in person

1043
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,280
and it's so collaborative.

1044
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,280
We can have feedback sessions.

1045
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,400
And it's something that I feel like with an agency,

1046
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,320
you're not really able to do as well.

1047
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,520
So there's like a benefit in pricing

1048
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,360
and owning more where the project is going, right?

1049
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,440
Which of course is not gonna take out of my creativity

1050
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,520
and I feel like I'm always aligned with the clients' wants.

1051
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,600
But it's that closeness that allows me to get very clear

1052
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,320
about their vision and bring it to life

1053
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,240
exactly how they saw it.

1054
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:51,600
Not exactly, but very close to what they saw it.

1055
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,200
You have an intuition for that.

1056
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:54,720
And it sounds like you take on clients

1057
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:57,000
who you're pretty aligned with.

1058
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,080
And I feel like maybe you can get that with an agency.

1059
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:02,560
I feel like with an agency,

1060
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,160
I've talked to some friends who were,

1061
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,280
unfortunately, you do just have to do it sometimes.

1062
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:08,480
It's like, I don't necessarily agree

1063
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:09,800
with the creative direction

1064
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,680
or what the client's asking for.

1065
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,920
But if it's in your contract to do another revision,

1066
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,880
then you have to do it.

1067
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,160
Do you run up against that or have you?

1068
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,640
Going in a bit of a different direction.

1069
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,600
Unnecessary revisions.

1070
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,800
Because I've been seeing that a lot in the studio context

1071
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,520
where clients don't know how to manage their own feedback.

1072
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,800
Sometimes I will ask everyone on their team.

1073
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,240
That was such a learning lesson for me.

1074
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:39,880
You need to provide the structure

1075
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,040
because the clients are all over the place.

1076
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,680
So that was learning the hard way for me.

1077
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,000
Now what I do is that I'm like,

1078
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,440
there's gonna be two review rounds.

1079
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,080
There's the first one, which is,

1080
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:54,120
then it depends, of course,

1081
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,840
what type of assets I'm giving them.

1082
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,080
But the first one is first draft,

1083
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,040
get a review, go over it.

1084
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,960
There's probably a solid amount of changes

1085
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,080
or they maybe wanna go to a slightly different direction

1086
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:05,920
or something.

1087
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,040
And then the second round, for me, the project is finished,

1088
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:10,960
but maybe there's a little twitch

1089
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:12,960
of something that needs to be fixed.

1090
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,880
So I give the second review round,

1091
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:16,640
is everything okay, done?

1092
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,960
Or, okay, maybe there's a missing piece.

1093
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,560
So that's my structure.

1094
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,480
When I'm working with a fashion brand right now,

1095
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,440
when it's a small business,

1096
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,920
they're more likely to accept what you do

1097
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,520
and wanna be guided by you

1098
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,560
in the creative direction of the project.

1099
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,480
They trust you with your eye and your taste.

1100
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,960
That's why they hire you in the first place.

1101
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,080
And then working with a bigger firm,

1102
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,320
like a fashion brand, there's a creative director,

1103
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:48,520
there's a marketing officer,

1104
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,560
an art director, there's the founder.

1105
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,280
And I never get to talk to the higher levels.

1106
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,520
I have my meetings with the marketing producer

1107
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,560
and the chief marketing officer.

1108
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,680
Whatever I produce goes to the founder

1109
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,080
and the creative director.

1110
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,080
There has been time where they're doing a brand refresh.

1111
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,480
I did like a new brand book for them.

1112
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,480
And I suggested for them to go into a more modern,

1113
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,440
one font, a little bit bolder.

1114
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,640
Instead of the classic serif font, like then,

1115
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,960
I was like, let's do something cool and different,

1116
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,640
which was not gonna be so different.

1117
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,120
But yes, we did this whole brand book

1118
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,960
and chief marketing officer was like,

1119
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,640
wait, I actually like this.

1120
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:32,720
This is very cool.

1121
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:33,760
Let's go with it.

1122
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,000
A new chapter, let's go.

1123
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,960
And then the brand book went,

1124
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,280
and this was like a month we were working on this.

1125
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,080
Then the brand book, like second review,

1126
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,560
brand book goes to the creative director

1127
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,240
and they're like, oh no, we don't like it.

1128
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,160
We went back to not square zero,

1129
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:52,760
like not where they were before,

1130
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,640
but it was like an in-between of what I suggested

1131
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,280
and what they were before.

1132
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:58,360
So that happens.

1133
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,280
And I'm like, yeah, I think the other idea was way cooler.

1134
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,400
You are the client, this is your brand.

1135
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,400
And I think I'm more here to do all the graphic design

1136
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,080
that they don't have the time to do.

1137
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,720
So sometimes you have to like let go, I think.

1138
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:14,520
And I'm so happy to work with them

1139
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,280
and I'm having such a fun time.

1140
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,240
And I think I'm just there to support with graphic design

1141
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,960
because they don't have someone in house that can do that

1142
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,120
and they wanna work with someone that gets it.

1143
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,280
So now I'm doing their Instagram templates,

1144
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:32,640
which every time I suggest something more creative

1145
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,200
than this industry standard,

1146
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:36,960
they're like, oh my God, what's that?

1147
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,480
And I'm like, okay, easy.

1148
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,480
Then they just want someone that knows a grid system

1149
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,880
and can put an image and text the right size.

1150
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,240
And that's great, even easier.

1151
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:51,360
I think it's nice to not have an ego with feedback,

1152
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,280
but I do have to say lately,

1153
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,400
I've noticed this trend of people really playing it safe

1154
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:57,240
with branding.

1155
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:00,320
And I think that might be an economic indicator.

1156
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,880
So many people just wanna play it safe these days.

1157
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:04,040
The amount of clients who are like,

1158
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,040
oh, I just want navy blue

1159
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,640
and something that looks really simple.

1160
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,600
That's okay, we hired a branding agency regardless.

1161
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:12,440
They'll just give it to you.

1162
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,360
It's like their loss, right?

1163
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,080
I feel like there's so many brands

1164
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,480
that are setting the standard

1165
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,840
and then other brands want to be like that.

1166
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,120
I always ask my clients,

1167
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,200
what is your aspirational competitor?

1168
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,440
And what is your aspirational aesthetic?

1169
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,680
What is the best aesthetic to you that you'd like?

1170
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:31,960
And there's some brands

1171
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,760
that they get mentioned to me all the time.

1172
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,240
I'm like, I love how this brand does their social media.

1173
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:41,960
Boom, and I'm like, which is open, the meditation app.

1174
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,760
They have a very cool Instagram, I agree.

1175
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,120
And everybody's like, I want an Instagram like theirs.

1176
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,120
And it's incredible because they are setting the standard

1177
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:51,560
and everybody's trying to do that.

1178
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,280
So I'm starting to think about that.

1179
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,720
How do I make sure that it works

1180
00:49:57,720 --> 00:49:59,880
like the standard that I'm making you need?

1181
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:00,960
That's what I'm working on

1182
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,480
because a lot of people are asking me

1183
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,200
for social media templates.

1184
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,360
So how did, because now,

1185
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,560
and everybody now is like used of having this kind of format

1186
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,800
of infographic templates and branded stories

1187
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,040
with all your fonts and colors.

1188
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,480
So how can I make sure that I'm doing that?

1189
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:18,680
Something that resonates

1190
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,920
with the current Instagram audience, right?

1191
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:26,440
They just want direct information, clear information,

1192
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,680
but also make it not like everybody else.

1193
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,560
And I still don't have an answer for that.

1194
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,600
I hope I'm gonna figure it out.

1195
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,800
But yeah, there's clear trends

1196
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:42,800
and I don't know the answer yet to how to work with that.

1197
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:44,880
There are times, like seasons in my life

1198
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,120
when I'm more tolerant to it

1199
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,720
and others where I'm like, I just don't wanna do that.

1200
00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:52,120
I'm probably in one of those seasons right now.

1201
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:53,960
But yeah, I think it's nice to just let it go.

1202
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,280
And I think what I've learned too

1203
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:57,960
is these are your clients' projects

1204
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,240
and then what they pay you, you see it up for your own

1205
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:02,040
and then you do something fun and cool

1206
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,400
and then you show them how it's done.

1207
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,280
And that's okay if they're two separate things.

1208
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,840
I think my goal as a creator is to get to a point

1209
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,360
where I get hired to do exactly what I do.

1210
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,920
I imagine one of the designers that I really love

1211
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,920
is David Carson and he gets hired for exactly what he does.

1212
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,520
And that's the coolest thing.

1213
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:26,920
Let me look at his work.

1214
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,680
He's known because he worked a lot with Surf magazines

1215
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,280
and he didn't have a design background

1216
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,000
and he started doing graphic design

1217
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:41,080
and he just like consistently broke any possible rules

1218
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,320
that was there and he works a lot with collage

1219
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:50,000
and defined the aesthetic of surfing

1220
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,880
and board culture in general, whatever it is,

1221
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,760
skateboarding, snowboarding.

1222
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,040
So anti-grid, but I love it.

1223
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,640
It's like very loud and it works.

1224
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,440
Yeah, and people hire him.

1225
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,360
Now he's been doing this for I don't know how many years.

1226
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,080
But now he gets hired to do that.

1227
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,800
They're like, oh, I want, he's more of an artist

1228
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,680
at this point, you're like commissioning him

1229
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,840
to do a piece for them, but signed David Carson

1230
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:22,520
and with his signature style.

1231
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:24,520
For me, that's like my ultimate goal, right?

1232
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,040
Someone is hiring you to do exactly what you do.

1233
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,920
Exactly, I so relate to that.

1234
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,600
And I've been talking to my artist friends too.

1235
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,000
You have to build an audience for your work sometimes

1236
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,560
and do it enough to where people are like,

1237
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,400
that's exactly what I want.

1238
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,080
But it takes time.

1239
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,280
And for some people it's faster than others.

1240
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,600
So I think building out space to be authentic,

1241
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,640
even if you're doing client projects is so important.

1242
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,920
Yeah, for me, that's a big value, right?

1243
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,800
It's like being true to what you're doing

1244
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,840
and what your values are.

1245
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:04,240
And it's like that's in general for my own life

1246
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:07,280
and how I wanna present myself.

1247
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,840
The creative environment is such a self exploration.

1248
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,280
It's not easy, it's so spiritual

1249
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,800
and you have to keep finding a way to get back out there

1250
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,920
and ride the waves.

1251
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:19,960
It's not always just good.

1252
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:21,400
Sometimes you're getting pummeled,

1253
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,440
you're like, okay, crap, how do I get back up?

1254
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:27,440
Beautiful.

1255
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:28,920
All right, we have a few minutes left.

1256
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,000
Is there anything else you wanna discuss today?

1257
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,080
I've enjoyed talking to you.

1258
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,960
I have just one question for you that I'm so curious.

1259
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,040
How come did you move to Maui?

1260
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,760
What's interesting is I was working remote at the time

1261
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,000
with a social media agency, so I could travel.

1262
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,400
I had a friend in college who I did a podcast episode with.

1263
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,400
Her name is Jane, that's not her actual name,

1264
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,200
but we were roommates and we lived at this co-op together

1265
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:57,880
at Stanford called Synergy.

1266
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,840
She was really involved in the co-op scene in the Bay Area

1267
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,920
and then she had this friend named Ton who is a DJ.

1268
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:06,640
She met at another co-op.

1269
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,760
Ton set up this house in Maui where she would DJ

1270
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:11,480
and we would throw parties.

1271
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:12,440
And that was really fun.

1272
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,920
It was actually this house where it was me,

1273
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:16,380
this other artist named Eva,

1274
00:54:16,380 --> 00:54:18,840
served to and did a lot of these really gestural,

1275
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,240
massive paintings on plywood.

1276
00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:23,840
Then there was another woman there named Jazz

1277
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,280
who would do these really cool drone ocean photographs.

1278
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,640
That was how it was for a few months.

1279
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:31,680
Then I met a boyfriend out there

1280
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,600
and I was staying for almost three years.

1281
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,720
I basically stayed there up until the fires happened

1282
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:39,760
and the culture changed a lot.

1283
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:41,120
But it's still an amazing place.

1284
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:42,480
I still have friends there.

1285
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,240
And my friend Ton who first started the house,

1286
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:49,640
she's now in Ibiza, so she's really DJing now.

1287
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,960
She used to be in the tech scene in San Francisco.

1288
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,000
She's someone who really pursues her dreams too.

1289
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,240
After everything happened, the scene really changed in Maui.

1290
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:00,960
She's in Spain, so.

1291
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:02,040
That's so cool.

1292
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:03,240
Yeah, it is.

1293
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:05,320
And I feel like that's how the past few years have been.

1294
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,200
It's okay if COVID's gonna happen.

1295
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,000
Like you have to find ways to push your joy through an outlet.

1296
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,280
And so one of my outlets for joy was Maui.

1297
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,200
And I was like, it was great.

1298
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:15,480
Yeah, you just go with it.

1299
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:17,640
No, I love that.

1300
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:21,240
I think Hawaii is one of the most beautiful places ever.

1301
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:24,440
And I love that you lived there for so long.

1302
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:25,560
It's gorgeous.

1303
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:26,920
I met a lot of pro surfers.

1304
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,400
If you ever go, it's a cool place to meet people.

1305
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:30,760
A lot of travelers too.

1306
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,520
I would love to stay in touch with you

1307
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,560
and thank you so much for joining me today

1308
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,080
with such a good conversation.

1309
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,040
I love sharing with you.

1310
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:43,080
And so we've been through so many of the same things

1311
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,000
that it's so nice to see that ideas

1312
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:46,840
and see what other creatives think.

1313
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:48,360
Such a wonderful conversation.

1314
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:50,280
And it's all very real.

1315
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,360
All right, folks, that was our episode today.

1316
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,320
Again, I mentioned I will be traveling to New York

1317
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,960
at the end of March into early April.

1318
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:05,640
If you are friends who would like to hang out

1319
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,040
in New York during that time, please let me know.

1320
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,520
This trip is going to be pretty impromptu,

1321
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,640
but the goal is to freelance and network

1322
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,120
and find folks who want to work on design.

1323
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,320
I am pivoting more into my own work

1324
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,880
and it's been kind of surprising to me

1325
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,520
that it's actually been over 10 years

1326
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,800
since I've been doing graphic design, but it has been.

1327
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,040
And now is the perfect moment to just take full ownership

1328
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:38,200
of what I like to do and go hard on it.

1329
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,200
There is really no perfect moment for it.

1330
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,120
And I think that's something I've had a hard time

1331
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,360
adjusting to the fact that, you know,

1332
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,760
maybe there is like a good place to network

1333
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,920
and to find people to work with,

1334
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,320
but there's never really a great time to start.

1335
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,800
The best moment is always now prioritizing your dreams,

1336
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,480
your vision, and what feels right is always something

1337
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,680
that we have control over, even if we're working

1338
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,520
with other people in an agency space or on our own.

1339
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,600
So this is just one of the ways that I'm trying

1340
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,680
to make it work at the moment.

1341
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,360
Again, you can follow my Stub Stack

1342
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,480
where I'm starting to write more personal posts online

1343
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,240
at Jules Pools.

1344
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,240
And you can always follow me on Instagram

1345
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,400
for more day-to-day updates at Jules.Pools.

1346
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:25,960
All right.

1347
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:27,960
Thanks for listening and love ya.

1348
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:57,880
Talk to you next time.