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Hi and welcome to the Po Party. This is Jules. I'm your host. Today we have Janna

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who is one of my good time long time friends. We went to Stanford together. We

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met as freshmen in the same dorm and today we were talking about art and

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creativity in academia but also how to approach long-term creative problems

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that don't necessarily like have a lot of structure to them. I think we both

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approach this as well me a designer creative who works on my own but also

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with the studio and she has a PhD in sociology at Berkeley who is writing a

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PhD dissertation but also has like a lot of free time to structure time. So I

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think structuring time is really difficult for people these days

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especially when it comes to like working on long-term projects that become a body

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of work and this is something I wanted to talk about because I see a lot of

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creative struggle with this even myself still I have to be kind of strict with my

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time and I'm learning, flowing, ebbing, whatnot and I think this is kind of

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timely for me because I recently took on a few different gigs that are in person

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they helped provide me with structure and I think it's done a wonder for my

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mental health and my quality of work because for a few years when I was just

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working remote and taking on freelance project projects it was truly the Wild

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West and left to my own devices I actually get a lot of work done but it's

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not necessarily healthy and I could stray from one direction of either

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having no work-life balance or you know working way too much or like partying

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too much so recently what I've been doing I think has really helped me and

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kind of reminds me of being in school sometimes where I'm in an office a few

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days a week or teaching class but then it's not structured by an institution

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it's structured by me and basically the 1099 contracts that I agreed to and I

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like it frankly like I remember one of my biggest letdowns when I graduated

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from college and entered the workforce was just how much of my time I could

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not control but I actually feel like I have more control over my schedule these

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days and what kind of projects they say yes to but there are certain social

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factors that are really important to me like agreeing to meet someone at a

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certain time and place to work in person you know like approaching work and

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making contact with it which is like one thing Jana talks about during certain

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hours just to get the brain flowing it's it's very structured and I think those

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types of ways of moving forward through time are extremely important to get the

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wheel turning because there have been moments in my life where I felt run over

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by the wheel of time so without further ado we're talking with Jana today and I

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hope you enjoy this episode oh by the way if you don't know me my name is

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Jules you can go to my website juliaspero.me that's J-U-L-I-A-E-S-P-E-R-O.me

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to check out my portfolio my work and let's stay connected if you haven't

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already go ahead and follow this podcast read it five stars and listen to it

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wherever you like podcasts and if this episode inspires you at all today feel

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free to share it with a friend send it to your mom I'm sure she'll love it

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all right let's go hey I love your maps how's it going

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it's good I also had like a after I was like texting you yeah you were asking me

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what we should talk about I was like going to my car and my car battery like

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died no sorry so normally like Yanni has cables but like he had already gone to

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work and so I was literally like standing on the street just like waiting

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for people like literally just like approaching random people in the street

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being like do you have jumper cables and eventually this like elderly Asian

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man did and he was like yeah like he literally he was like walking with like

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his groceries and like he was like okay yeah like I'll go to my apartment I'll

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come back oh that's someone helped you yeah yeah I just like I don't want to

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call triple-a cuz they would take forever to come they do they take

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forever anyways I'm stoked to have you on the podcast again cuz it's been a

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year and I'm just gonna go ahead and start recording and I'll edit it and

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send it to you later yeah you know the drill Janet thank you for joining me back on the

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podcast I know you're writing a PhD thesis this year and we're gonna talk

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about creativity in academia today so as a Peggy goo of academia what does that

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mean to you yeah so one thing I have to say is that I've like started my

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dissertation this year but I won't be finishing till spring 27

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um oh wow yeah cuz that shit does not happen overnight but I'm excited about

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it um I guess to your opening question yeah you know it's work hard play hard

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out here yeah I feel like my life these days is very much like prioritizing work

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during the week and then prioritizing play on the weekends and so I find that

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it's been really helpful for me because I feel like especially in academia or

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any kind of like creative process that takes a while it's very easy to like let

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work consume your life like you can just there's always like stuff to do and you

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can always be working and I used to do that but I think now my my mode is more

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like treating my work like a nine-to-five which is what it really is

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and then trying to maintain like a life outside of it and traveling and you know

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going to festivals or going out a lot or like friends is like really important

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for me and then yeah and I find that like my work is better because of that

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it's like the nine-to-five schedule really does kind of get you boundaries

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when you when you follow it to it I'm you can hear my nephews yeah like that

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Super Smash Bros and Charlie my dog I'll give them a second oh my gosh I want to

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talk to you about our cosanti a little bit but I do have this kind of broader

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question because obviously you're not a white man in academia so what would you

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say to the people who think that academia is a white man's club full of

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intellectuals I think I have a lot of hope in the future of academia because I

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think that historically yeah it's been you know it obviously has skewed towards

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like white men or just white people in general from like Western countries and

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even like it and the problem with that is that actually is sort of narrows the

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focus of what people study I mean especially in sociology like if like

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white people from the Western world are in mostly in the field then the focus of

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attention and what's deemed important to study is like what's happening in the

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West and so I think that yeah so it's not just a problem with diversity it's

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like it literally like limits what's what like sociology could be you know so I

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think that's like the history of that but I actually have a lot of optimism

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about the future of like sociology and academia in general because I do see a

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lot more diverse like grad students like pretty much everyone in my cohort and

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the cohort like the majority of people in my cohort and the cohorts around me

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in my program and I know what other schools like we're mostly all people of

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color actually like majority women generally with like more progressive

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values and not really about this like gatekeeping mentality I think there's

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like basically like three generations of like recent academia so one is

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obviously like you know white elite you know people and then the second

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generation actually was like maybe like the generation of or two above us where

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you know that you're starting to have like the first like Latino woman

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faculty member but I think because opportunities are so limited for them

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and they're quite successful and it's not that they don't want to help but

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they do also kind of have a scarcity mindset around academia or like they

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take these very personally they're like oh like you're not respecting me because

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I'm a woman it's like no like it's not because it's like you're also maybe like

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you don't treat your students well you know so like you know people have a hard

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time with that and then I think then there's like this current generation of

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like up-and-coming academics I think yeah like we kind of have moved away

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from the scarcity mindset thing and like you know we know that there's like more

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than one spot for us in the world so yeah that's kind of how I see it yeah so

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a lot of optimism ultimately yeah yeah that's so good and what you just said

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because you brought up this point about some people don't treat their students

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very well maybe that's why they're not super like it has nothing to do with

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identity and I think especially this week this November first week of November

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of 2024 what I've been thinking a lot about is how even in the places I work

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like as a practicing designer who sometimes works with like people of all

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different ages like professors people who are like fresh out of college or

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like have been working for like 10 years like pre-covid in covid remote

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environments and now in person like it's kind of obvious who's been working and

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like working in different ways and who hasn't and it's like kind of stuck in

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this idea of like you should just be praised for being older and like having

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experience and sometimes I have to check myself too sometimes I'm like am I

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resting on my laurels like I know I went to Stanford I know I did like a lot of

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training I know I work pretty hard but like at the end of the day you're only

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as good as like your ability to function on a team sometimes so yeah I mean like

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what are your thoughts on that I'm thinking about humility and what that

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really means and maybe how it works functionally but some people don't

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aspire to be humble so I mean I think I was just talking about this this morning

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with a friend in the covert in my department but I think I think we're

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like in a really like it we're in a peer to people are like I think quite

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sensitive about a lot of things and I think and I say sensitive in the sense

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that I don't know if people are actually like receptive to feedback and like

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learning from it because people tend to take things so personally and they

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always say like when people are giving you feedback you should like even if the

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other like regardless of the person was giving you feedback what their intentions

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are you should always approach it as like their credit they're critiquing

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your work and not you like I feel like that's like the bottom line and I feel

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like yeah like I think this goes to like your humility thing because I think it

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actually is like a very prideful thing to like take someone's honest feedback to

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you so personally and be like oh like they're just being a bitch or like they

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don't like me but it's like no like maybe if you had more humility you can

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actually look at your work from like someone else's point of view and like at

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least try to understand where that came from rather than like yeah taking things

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so personally and like and ultimately not changing or learning you know it's

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not to say like you have to like change entirely who you are but I think it's

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important to like constantly learn and like adapt and grow like I just think

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that's the problem right now with like even if I got a work team or when you're

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getting feedback on a paper or like you're making an art piece and you're

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getting feedback like you're just never gonna not get feedback I think yeah so

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that's how I kind of view it yeah yeah and I think feedback is kind of a

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precious thing too because like you can work by yourself for sure but there's

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always I think for me sometimes like imposter syndrome is this nagging

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thought of like I don't know what I don't know but if you just like open your

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mind to let people critique you and take it it kind of is soothing you're like

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okay I considered other people's thoughts and I tried and that's all you

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can do yeah yeah yeah so your paper is gonna take about we're in 2024 2027

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that's when you aim to have it done damn what's the process of that like yeah so

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and what is it about yeah so my dissertation is actually three papers

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dissertations at least in my field kind of work is that you either like write

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like a book length dissertation where it's like basically the first draft of

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the book you're gonna publish or you like write three papers that like fit

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together in a certain way just staple them together and that's your

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dissertation so I think I'm going like the three paper route and yeah so it's

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broadly about like the emergence of sustainability in global climate

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governance so how our organizations and people like adapting to climate change

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through the lens of like sustainability work so I'm trying to look at this from

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sort of like it's called like polycentric but you could think of it as

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kind of like a nested Russian doll kind of perspective so um the first paper

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kind of looks at it at an international like historical level so like how did

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this idea of like sustainability come about because we know that it took a

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while for like climate change to like take hold as a concept so then

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subsequently like how did the idea of sustainability as a response to climate

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change play out and so the first is a more historical paper the second paper

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kind of like okay looks specifically at companies and corporations and these

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organizations and looking at these different sort of like competing

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logics and visions around sustainability so one view is like to be sustainable we

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have to like completely kind of reduce consumption degrowth the economy like we

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can't hinge our economic growth on consumption that's just simply you know

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bad for the environment we have to like completely change the way we do our

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economy and there's another view that's like okay it's possible for like our

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current capital system to still exist and we could just like make it better so

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it's basically like abolition versus reform right and so I've been doing a

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lot of like interviews and have a lot of data on like companies all around the

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world and just looking at you know what kind of policies are working it does

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that actually reduce emissions and sort of these different like logics at play

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and then the third like so the inside nested all is looking at people within

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companies right so yeah so just as a summary right we have the international

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then we have organizational level now we're looking at people inside companies

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and I think the main thing I'm very curious about is like okay so companies

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are actually hiring a lot more like sustainability professionals they're

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hiring like chief sustainability officers like sustainability directors

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like this has been a growing field and it will continue to be I think despite

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the election and so I'm just curious you know like for these people who have

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these roles like how do they sort of square their personal values on

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sustainability with the or sort of organizational demands of their job

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right so like for example I was interviewing like sustainability

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directors at large mining companies in Australia or like Chevron or like you

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know sometimes companies in really bad sectors and actually I think what's

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really interesting is that a lot of the people in these roles they actually mean

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really well like they're not like evil people who want to like ruin the world

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like they actually they view that like they can make change like within the

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company and it's maybe more impactful to like like have that role in you know an

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oil and gas company then like recycling company for example and so yeah so I've

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just been interviewing people who work in sustainability how they sort of

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navigate their jobs and their values and their identities you know like when do

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they have to compromise their values and when do they not have to so yeah so

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that's the overall what my question is about which kind of sounds like a lot but

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yeah I like to reverse already done so I just have like you're trapping along so

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wait which one is left for you to write the like is the first one like the

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historical one because I think that is a broad yeah yeah the hardest part

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actually was like interviewing companies like like getting companies to like talk

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to me about climate change is like you might imagine kind of hard and so I

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spent like the last like two years like literally cold emailing like hundreds of

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companies like I had this like database of like companies that report their

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emissions to their investors and so I started there and then I would literally

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like Google every single company and then pull up their sustainability

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reporting because what you might not know is that companies now put out both

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financial reports and sustainability reports like it's like a thing now and

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so I would go through the sustainability reporting and like look if there's like

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a contact email in that report like an office like a sustainability office

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email or something and if there was an email I would just like send them this

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cold email and try to get an interview and so yeah so it was very like tedious

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process but yeah I've been able to talk to like around 70 people or companies on

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this topic so I feel good with like a number of interviews I have on that and

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then in terms of like professionals in the workplace on that I think I've talked

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to like almost 40 people on that so more than like a hundred interviews on this

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topic and you know as you might know like I know like analyzing interviews

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also takes a while so yeah so that's what I spent most of my you're doing so

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actually the historical piece I haven't done it yet but it feels a lot easier

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because I could I don't have to depend on like other people will taking the

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time to talk to me I can just like do that on my own time yeah yeah that is

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actually I totally agree with you when I used to write papers it's like yeah you

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can kind of just like digest what has happened like analyze it from a new

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perspective considering current context but then like present-day qualitative

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interviews well those are really challenging for me because I'm curious

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like what are some of the themes you're looking at are there like notable quotes

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that come up what strikes you yeah so the one I always say is that I interviewed

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the the the first director of sustainability at like the largest

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electric utilities company in the Czech Republic and she made this interesting

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comment where she said that so she was like the first person hired for this

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role they like created this role and she was the first person hired for it and

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she made this comment that she said that she believes that she was hired because

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she has more of a background actually in academic research and so she you know

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has a very data-driven approach to everything and she said that like the

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CEO of the company wanted someone who would treat sustainability as like a

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data like a techno technological problem and not an ideological thing like that's

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like a direct quote she's like sustainability is you know a data

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problem it's not ideological and I think that would strike people as surprising

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because you know obviously there's a lot of activism around climate change it

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like everything is like ideological including like how you view climate

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change and what should be done about it so it's interesting that for I think for

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a large part because of the sort of emerging regulations around companies

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and climate change it is treated kind of like a technological data-driven problem

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so what I mean by that is basically the main regulation we have right now on

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companies and climate change is that companies are actually any publicly

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listed company in most countries with like you know developed economies they

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pretty much have to report their emissions like emissions accounting to

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the SEC like to the securities regulator so it's not like they have to report to

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the EPA it's like the literal US Securities and Exchange Commission is

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like requiring this so companies always have to report every year on their like

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financials to the SEC right and so they're starting to have to do this as

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well with emissions so this is like quite legitimate regulation like it's

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not they're not bullshitting around here and this is the same in the EU this is

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the same in like Japan New Zealand like all over and so companies have to report

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this and I think overall it's it is a good thing right like there should be

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like reporting and transparency so that once you start reporting your emissions

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there's a way to like track it and you should overall be reducing it um but I

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think that sometimes as with like a lot of like solutions that we try to throw

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at problems like you know when you actually talk to people at companies and

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you're saying like okay do you think that collecting all this data like is

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it actually like changing you know emissions or changing what a company's

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doing a lot of the times like you talk to these sustainability people and they

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say that they spend so much time basically like crunching numbers on

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emissions on Excel and like doing all this like emailing in the company to

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like get data on emissions that the most of the effort actually just goes towards

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like reporting their emissions and like just fulfilling these like disclosure

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requirements rather than like actually reducing your emissions right it's like

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they're just trying to like comply with regulations now which overall is like a

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good thing but if whether or not it actually like addresses the goals of it

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which is to reduce emissions because the earth is still warming up like it's kind

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of a more mixed picture right and so yeah so that's kind of yeah like one of

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the main things that I've been finding in my research so yeah and I think one

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thing I would add to is that like on a broader scale I think it's been really

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really fascinating to actually like look directly at corporations and what they're

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doing about climate because I think especially in sociology like the focus

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on like inequality so you're often studying like sort of marginalized

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minority groups or you know divisions across class gender race things like that

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and those are all super important I think oftentimes like whenever you say

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like yeah I'm studying companies and climate change people will be like why

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like companies aren't gonna do anything right like why even bother looking at

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them and I think I definitely also had that take going in I was like why would

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I do that like obviously it's all bad but actually I think like the more you

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actually look at it first of all it's you have to like look at it because if

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we're actually gonna do anything about climate change especially like if we're

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not addressing like the largest emitters like what are you gonna look at you know

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so I think it's important to like actually look at what companies are doing

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and second of all once you actually start getting into it like you see that

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it's a much more complex picture like it's there is like some good that's

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happening there's also like some bad that's happening there's also some where

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it's like people are just trying to figure it out that doesn't mean that the

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people in these companies are like evil like capitalist pigs you know like I

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think that people just like really are trying to do better and like sometimes

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it's just kind of like the nature of like surviving in our economy like

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companies want to survive as well so I just think it's a lot more complicated

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which makes it really interesting to look at like yeah in my view yeah

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actually I really agree I think wow you it almost sounds like an accounting

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problem like a mass accounting problem at the moment and I think that is a good

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thing especially for companies where like the bottom line is oftentimes the

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issue and so then when you put like a quantity on something like carbon or

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sustainability and you can then measure it at least gives you a baseline for

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change I think recently this past week from a branding and marketing

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perspective I got on a call with the CEO their team and my team that I work with

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and it was interesting because we wanted to talk broadly about values as a brand

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in terms of sustainability maybe some of the values that people get from this

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consumer product good like whether that's like true sustainability in terms

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of creating the product or like cleanliness and not like having to you

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know like I'm trying to be broad because I don't want to talk about this product

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specifically but some people use like washcloths for example and washcloths

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aren't actually that clean but there are you know ways of like maybe you know

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purchasing a product maybe it costs you more money but if it lasts longer and

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it's actually like healthier for you then maybe that is like a true

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reflection of value and like a good way of spending money and I think when it

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comes to value and the way that I see people like invest their time and money

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lately I think bringing it back to like an arts perspective as well what I see

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sometimes is like a reluctance for people to receive money in exchange for

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their work and like their value and I'm like money isn't inherently evil I think

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it's necessary it's like actually what do you get out of this and like what

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exchange is happening and I see a lot of times like a reluctance for people to

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even do any sort of exchange when it comes to like goods and services because

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they don't want to call their art or their creativity like a good or a

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service but I think if we kind of just like bring it back to the baseline of

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like well if I'm exchanging like money for something that you do like we can

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define values with language but maybe like the quantity of like exchanging

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money and like recording it is important even though it doesn't feel like

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supernatural yeah yeah I think yeah basically yeah like money and also like

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data are like a means and people treat it like an end you know and I think that

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like complicates a lot of like our work and our relationships yeah it's really

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tough to you because I'm like is there ever really an end no that's like kind

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of what I'm starting to feel lately I'm like yeah you can see something as a

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means to end but there's never truly an end so like what is that actually yeah

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I don't yeah things keep on going you can only observe like results yeah yeah

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so from a historical perspective like what is the first piece of history

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you're looking at for your third paper yeah so I think the first one basically

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just starts with like the Rio Earth Summit in 1992 92 baby yeah it's the

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birth year of my ex anyways let's go relatively recent too because some in

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96 baby I'm 28 92 that is like 32 years ago yeah these are incredibly relevant

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years yeah so actually okay sorry the first one actually is that I had a look

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at the year the first one is 1987 actually so um this was like the first time like a

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formal definition was made for sustainability this was basically a

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report that came out of one of like the like global meetings they were starting

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to set up and they defined sustainability as quote meeting the

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needs of the present without compromising the ability of future

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generations to meet their own needs yeah it's kind of broad but also I think it

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like I think people agree on this definition but like in very different

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ways because some people would be like oh we have to meet the needs of the

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future generation by like conserving the planet and then other people feel like

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we have to meet the needs because like they're like we have to like still have

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like capitalism and you know competition and blah blah so I think yeah so I think

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that's where it kind of starts and then yeah that was 1987 and then it just kind

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of like ratchets up from there with like the 92 Rio Earth Summit and then all

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these like sort of global meetings that happen every year like the COP you know

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COP 26 27 28 and the UN and like you know all these like global meetings and

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so yeah it's definitely like interesting I don't know like I feel like if I were

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to keep like yapping about this I would also say that like I I think that I

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don't know if I've talked about this before but I believe that like the idea

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of like the global is like a recent invention because for like you know most

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of like human history you like existed within like your local context right and

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I really think that or like I actually nothing like I know that that we didn't

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actually have this concept of the global until like after both world wars and in

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the rise of like the Cold War when we and when we started literally sending

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people to space and then you could actually have the technology to like

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take a picture of the earth and that picture of the earth which if you think

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about as a concept like we kind of take it for granted now like we have social

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media like everything just feels like global international but like that just

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like was not the case like that we did not have that technology like 70 years

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ago for that and so once like images of the whole earth started becoming

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circulated and we started having things like TV and like radio and stuff like

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over time like we have this idea of the global and I talk about this because

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that sort of laid the path for having things like the UN and like being able to

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have like international agreements on climate which are super important you

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know like and like our interdependence on other countries and other places like

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in our current economy and so yeah so I think it's important for like dealing

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with these global problems that we have and also it's important because I think

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it's crazy that like people now are like all around the world are like going

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against like the global they're becoming more insular like nationalism

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nationalisms on the rise like Trump is gonna like impose tariffs and other

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countries are doing the same and so I think like there's been this backlash

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against the global and I think it's important to like emphasize like how

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important it is like we're at a point where we can't reverse back to like you

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know just living in our own context like it sounds nice and like you know living off your

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land and from your own country but like it's I don't think we can go back to

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that like we're so dependent like globally. The homestead mindset is like super I think

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fantastical charming bucolic pretending like you're in Little House in the

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Prairie like living in modern-day Idaho but even if you want that it's like your

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machinery like the parts are being made abroad like you cannot excuse yourself

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from a global context and I think when I think about like globalism and the

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economy we're literally operating from a unit of one if the earth is like a unit

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that's one you can break that down into like whatever metrics you want but I

396
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think that first quote that you mentioned like trying but what is it

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exactly could you repeat it? It's meeting the needs of the present without

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compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. Yeah

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I don't know that strikes me as like a budget it's like are you gonna bet your

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load like at the slots in Vegas today it's like probably not a good idea if

401
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,800
you're trying to meet the the needs of the future you kind of have to invest

402
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in what is needed today and I don't know if we've been doing that frankly with

403
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our money as a country as a society but it's worth noting I think that's like

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00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,440
where some of those like themes of human values on a personal level come in it's

405
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like what people believe will happen and sometimes there's this nihilism and this

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idea that there isn't necessarily a future that leads to like poor spending

407
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habits as I've like educated myself on personal finance but I think that is like

408
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super applicable even when I see the way people spend and like new industries

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like how we're talking to this one client that might be like luxury space

410
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travel and I've noticed that like that's come up a lot too because you know

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there's always like this thought of like you know maybe people are not really

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willing to accept globalism but they're almost like more willing to accept like

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this idea of like outside the earth and I'm like wait a second I feel like

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that's more than we've shown ourselves capable of yeah digesting yeah actually

415
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yeah when you were saying like spending like people like spending habits because

416
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,400
obviously there's like you can't blame people because like there's so much

417
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uncertainty and so like why not just like take care of your what you want

418
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,800
today because like the future so like uncertain so it's like an obvious

419
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response but like I actually have this like working theory that like I think

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our next like major or like huge financial crisis is gonna come from

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platforms like buy now pay later because I think like their rise of those things

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like it's so dangerous because people simply cannot afford the things that

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they are like trying to do and it's such a consumer trap like at least like when

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I don't know when we were coming up and like we got credit cards it was like

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don't buy something that like you don't think you can a hundred percent payback

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and okay sure a lot of people have credit card debt but then now this is at a

427
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layer of like okay when you're online shopping you can just like do like for

428
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installments of like 50 bucks like each month and it feels a lot more affordable

429
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but what happens when people on mass can't stop can't start paying it back

430
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and then these lenders can't pay back like their banks like that's gonna lead

431
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to like some kind of crisis I think like you're not wrong I think it's kind of

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like happening to like in real time slowly because I I knew people so

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anecdotally that were making so much money just off of like selling content

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or like selling services like photography even in 2020 because there

435
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,760
was this mass panic of like oh no we can't like work in person better go

436
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,120
digitally but now like four years later there is no longer this pressure of like

437
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,640
oh I need to have like a digital presence if anything people have like

438
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,580
built up a digital presence and if they're still overspending then like

439
00:35:35,580 --> 00:35:41,200
they don't want to put more money towards things like digital services and

440
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,680
if they suddenly like made a bunch of money and like bought a bunch of things

441
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,480
like with the firm we're like buy now pay later it's like we're running up on

442
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,960
that now it's like yeah do you have the same amount of money coming in as you

443
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,560
did and if you're like a photographer who is making way more like four years

444
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,800
ago than now it's super it's kind of scary it's like you might have to file

445
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:10,000
for bankruptcy yeah yeah so we'll see we'll see what happens very quickly

446
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,600
like my advisor at Berkeley actually I like had this paper a few years ago

447
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,720
where he said that like he argues that like the main reason why the Fed overlooked

448
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:24,480
the markers for like the 2008 crisis was because all our frames for a financial

449
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,840
crisis were based on like sort of traditional finance so like growth like

450
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,680
inflation like employment like those like sort of classic indicators but they

451
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,280
have sort of completely overlooked like how much of the American economy relied

452
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:42,640
on like housing and like mortgages and like loans and so like he sort of showed

453
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,520
through analyzing like all like the Fed meetings leading up to the financial

454
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,360
crisis that like this was brought up by a very small minority of economists on

455
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,280
the staff but it was like overshadowed by people were like no like that's that's

456
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,120
outside like economics like that won't lead to a crisis but like it did so

457
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,520
people like often overlook like how people are actually spending their money

458
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:08,320
and like you know like how people actually accrue debt like on scale and

459
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,000
so I think yeah so like now we know obviously okay so now the Fed is like

460
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,680
aware of like housing but like I don't know how they're aware of like you know

461
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:20,960
other areas like buy now pay later even like money tied up in like you know

462
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,320
crypto or like betting markets and sports gambling there's so many things

463
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,920
that people are doing to like stay afloat in our economy and I think yeah

464
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:36,680
if you're just like it is kind of like a camp it's like it's gambling yeah it's

465
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,920
like concerning how many people make money just from gambling and then when

466
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,400
your emotions are involved in involved in it and it isn't actually like super

467
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:51,760
predictable yeah actually these are like my shower thoughts I'm like wait so like

468
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,520
when our tax system was created I'm sure they had no idea that like crypto dick

469
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,280
butts and these like coins called like Sheba and bonk which is people like

470
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,360
millionaires overnight like I don't think these people are paying their

471
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,520
taxes either like why are why are we chasing waitresses who make like five

472
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:16,160
hundred dollars in one night it's like nothing in comparison okay cool well so

473
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:22,040
with all that being said recently you went to a festival how was it what were

474
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,960
your favorite things about it could you tell us about it and would you go again

475
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:30,920
yeah um yeah so recently I went to this music festival called forum Arcosanti

476
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:36,800
and it's at the place called Arcosanti in Arizona and it's basically like a

477
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,960
experimental town created by this architect and they were trying to

478
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:48,400
combine like architecture and ecology it's like a very like beautifully

479
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,200
designed building sort of set in what's like around what's called like the Verde

480
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:59,040
Valley in Arizona is like this beautiful stretch of like canyons in Arizona and

481
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:05,680
the place actually now makes a lot of their sort of revenue from like hosting

482
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:10,640
like farm-to-table workshops during the year or they have a year-round volunteer

483
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,240
program and they also actually are foundries so they make bells so they make

484
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:20,000
these like iron bells which I actually bought and so that's like what it's like

485
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,520
today and actually what the cool thing about Arcosanti I have to say is that

486
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:28,400
it's entirely like volunteer built so they have a foundation but like it's

487
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:34,880
kind of like reflecting the sort of like hippie back-to-the-land like commune kind

488
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:41,040
of era and so yeah so I think that's like the kind of like crowd it still kind of

489
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,560
attracts to this day and so every year they have this music festival called

490
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,920
FORM I think it started in 2015 maybe it's like a pretty small festival so

491
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:56,400
it's like maybe 2,000 people total and just for comparison like last week I

492
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:02,680
went to go see Caternata like a normal sort of big artist concert in Berkeley

493
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:07,400
and the crowd was 10,000 people so normally concerts can have like 10,000

494
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,880
people in one night this entire festival is 2,000 people so it's really really

495
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,200
small and they have they always have like really you know big artists come

496
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:21,000
through and I liked it because actually it was like a very diverse slate of

497
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:28,280
artists so it wasn't just EDM it wasn't just like you know like rock music so

498
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,800
they're a foundry does that mean like iron working you bought a bell iron

499
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:42,320
working oh Shabaka Shabaka who's like a really talented like flutist and so

500
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,440
there's like a flute artist there was like a spoken word artist named Asia

501
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,200
Monet would like do spoken word with like a band behind her so there's like

502
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,960
music accompanying in the back like I literally cried like during one of her

503
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,760
like songs or like poems because the poem was called like for the kids and

504
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,640
she's talking about like kids who like you know get their lives like cut short

505
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,680
the opportunities cut short because of like the society we live in um and so

506
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:12,560
there was like spoken word there was like these like super talented pianists

507
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:22,960
there was yeah there was yeah just like a lot of diversity music and and yeah it

508
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,640
was it was a really cool event and I think what was really interesting about

509
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:31,880
this festival compared to other ones is that there's like no VIP and like the

510
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,600
line between artists and people in the crowd is very very thin it's like one of

511
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,480
the only festivals I think where like when the artist isn't performing they're

512
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,600
literally just like at the festival they're like in the crowd which I've

513
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,360
never seen ever because normally especially when most places have like

514
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,080
VIP because you know that's how festivals make money like if the artist

515
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:56,800
is at the festival they're probably in the VIP section yeah so I've been to

516
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:02,400
festivals through friends who are artists where I've had the privilege of

517
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,600
going backstage and then like hanging out around artists who are just chilling

518
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:11,660
it's like one of the nicest experiences actually because you get to kind of see

519
00:42:11,660 --> 00:42:14,640
their side where they're like really hanging out and then they're like

520
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:20,760
preparing mentally and then kind of like hyping each other up and then I truly

521
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,360
wish there are more experiences like that but it really requires people to be

522
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,280
like kind of chill enough around people who create to understand like the

523
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:35,480
emotional vulnerability that it takes to like just relax and then literally have

524
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,680
to perform afterwards or like vice versa so I think that kind of probably says

525
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,720
something about form and like the environment that they create where

526
00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:51,840
people are willing to do that yeah that's great yeah yeah yeah I would

527
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:58,320
probably yeah I would try to keep going every year I would say like the top

528
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:05,400
favorite is still like Burning Man I think such different scales of festivals

529
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,280
though and like requirements for participating right yeah I would say

530
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,360
like yeah I think I mean I would I think like I had a way better time at

531
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,800
form than like they're like different but like I would say Burning Man is still

532
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,640
probably my favorite because it quite literally is like the template that like

533
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:28,480
a lot of these other festivals try to be like and it really is like it's like the

534
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,480
source of like you know a lot of like the creativity that you see at these

535
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:38,120
other sort of like festivals and so it's hard to like honestly say like okay form

536
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,320
is better just because they're so different you can't really compare it

537
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,880
um but like I think you see like the clear sort of lines that have come out

538
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,640
of Burning Man and form is one of them I think there's like a lot of like

539
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,560
burners at form like from there's a lot of burners in like Phoenix apparently

540
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,480
and you get a lot of people from like LA and the Bay so it's like that kind of

541
00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:04,000
crowd so so yeah so it was good and yeah I feel like I always come back from like

542
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:09,560
festivals like like I don't know like I personally don't really like I feel like

543
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:14,800
my biggest maybe like flex is that like I don't really get like depressed or

544
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:20,120
like I was about to say I'm not tired after festivals I'm like way more

545
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:27,720
energized yeah even if I was you know like doing a lot of stuff at these

546
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:31,600
festivals like I actually always come back like a lot more like yeah motivated

547
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:36,760
and I think that's why like it's like really important to me to continue just

548
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,600
like having fun and like sort of connecting it makes my work better yeah

549
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:46,560
I'm curious so like what's your internal dialogue like when you're at a festival

550
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,360
and you're coming back and you know you have like work coming up because I truly

551
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:55,320
believe that sometimes like thought patterns are replicable so what's your

552
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:01,640
inner dialogue like or is there just like no thoughts you're just vibing I

553
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:07,400
actually like do a lot of like background thinking about my work and I

554
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:13,600
actually reflect a lot on like where like sort of like my progress and like

555
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:18,840
where I started from so I think like I'm actually quite literally always like

556
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:27,320
thinking thoughts in the club like and and I think a couple years ago I

557
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,640
definitely had like very like negative self-talk I'm always like you know like

558
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,880
it's hard not to like when you're thinking about like your work and you're

559
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,120
like oh I still have to do this and like why didn't I do this and blah blah so

560
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:41,040
that's very natural I think like over the years I don't do that really like at

561
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,680
all anymore I don't think it's productive on like my energy I mean

562
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,680
sometimes it still happens but like I can like get out of it pretty quickly

563
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,360
now but I think so it kind of so like when I'm thinking thoughts in the club

564
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,280
like I like have to sort of stream so one is I do think practically like okay

565
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,560
like what have I done so far what's left to be done I'm thinking about like

566
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,400
different ways to sort of solve like like these problems that I'm like like

567
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,080
puzzles that I'm seeing in my work and like how do I like analyze it this way

568
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,640
or that way so I'm definitely thinking in the background but on the other hand

569
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:16,120
I'm not coming out of a place of like blame or self-hatred or shame or

570
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:22,280
anything or guilt like it's very much like I all I honestly like like think a

571
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:28,200
lot about like I don't know just like how much progress I made like I'm like

572
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:34,760
so proud of myself for like you know continuing to do this I think about like

573
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,980
how far I've come from like how I used to sort of I had a much more like toxic

574
00:46:38,980 --> 00:46:41,760
relationship with like myself in my work and I think you can really like I'm

575
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:47,400
definitely someone where I wish my identity and self-worth was not tied to

576
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,800
work but the thing is like as we talked about this morning like I'm a Capricorn

577
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:57,440
and Taurus delium I have six planets three in Capricorn three in Taurus so

578
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,280
it is true that like I just gotta keep on climbing I think we're hardwired for

579
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,480
it too I think it's like from a young age somewhere like we were like praised

580
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,480
for output and then we're also good at it and so it's like well let me you know

581
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,080
when you're a child you're like let me just see how far I can go with this and

582
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,200
then literally like almost three decades later you're like oh fuck like I can

583
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,080
literally keep on going but it's not always healthy so you have to like kind

584
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:27,840
of then start working backwards where it's like how do I save myself from this

585
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:33,400
yeah so yeah so anyway so those are like my two strengths to like streams like I

586
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,600
am always like I don't know it's like I think it's hard not to like just like

587
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,040
think about things like just problems that you're trying not to say like I

588
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,480
have a problem in my work but just like I very much it's kind of like a math

589
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,760
problem like I'm just puzzling over like yeah work work is essentially a problem

590
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,160
there's that problem and then there can be a larger problem outside of work but

591
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,920
I think that's like what a lot of people strive to avoid yeah and then yeah so

592
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,120
that's one stream and the other stream is like just being like wow like I think

593
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:09,120
I I did the best I could and like this is awesome and I love myself yay and so

594
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:15,160
that's sort of my two streams and so yeah like I think when it comes to the

595
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,680
other part of your question which is like how do you like sort of go back to

596
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:23,680
your work like during the week and stuff like I think like over the years I've

597
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,120
actually developed I could write a whole book on this I think like which I might

598
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:33,000
do actually but like I will yeah I have a bunch of I have a bunch of like methods

599
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:38,000
that I do that like I stick to and that's how I sort of bring my brain back

600
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:42,840
and so for example one thing that I was sort of mentioned the beginning was like

601
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:47,920
being strict about my boundaries so just because you know I just came back from

602
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,560
traveling or whatever like and it's Monday like I don't have to start at

603
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:56,760
exactly 9 a.m. but like I do get my work started at some point that morning like

604
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,040
10 or 11 like just even like sitting down and pulling up your stuff again

605
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:05,480
from like Friday and just like sitting with it I think it always kind of gets

606
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,120
like the creative juices flowing like I very much view it as similar to like an

607
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,520
artist like going to their studio every day like some days you're like super

608
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,640
productive in the studio but other days like you just have to sit there and

609
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,560
tinker around like not everything is gonna be like a final product that the

610
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:24,440
world sees but like the process of thinking about your things like you know

611
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,960
experimenting with something that's like all part of the process those as well

612
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,080
like in academia you're running this analysis on something and the results

613
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,600
you're getting are like not a result like it's not a result you wanted it's

614
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:41,440
not a result that means anything but no result is still a result because now you

615
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,880
like know a little bit more about the thing you're studying and so you can

616
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,720
kind of like think about what to do next so I think it's important to just always

617
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:52,720
sit with it and so I actually call this method contact hours because I think

618
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:57,200
that a lot of time when we're dealing with like a big project like we think

619
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,240
that oh like if I like as much anxiety about it like you're procrastinating and

620
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:05,120
like I think for me like I just literally have to like open the project and just

621
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:10,400
make some contact with it you know and I think like that's always better than

622
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,240
like not touching your project at all because like you're so scared about it

623
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:16,840
like you and the more you procrastinate like the worse it gets right and so it's

624
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,240
like you just have to like you're creating a distance instead of contact

625
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:27,960
which is what you're doing just exposing yourself yeah and so that's like one

626
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,680
thing and then another thing that I've started doing like like two years ago

627
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:39,120
that I no one like taught me but like I like think it's like a really good

628
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,800
method is like I actually keep like basically like a journal tracking every

629
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:48,080
single day that I've been working and I kind of got this idea from stem like

630
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:52,040
sciences because in stem they have like a lab notebook and every time you're in

631
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,520
the lab you like write down what you did and like how it went and you know what

632
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:01,320
to do next and no one in the social sciences has ever talked about doing

633
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,800
that and I think that for me it's really helpful because every day I base and

634
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,160
they these are notes that like only I see so like you know like you can write

635
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,600
whatever you want and so every day I just kind of like whatever I'm doing I

636
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,680
just kind of document it and I'm like okay like this is my thought process

637
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:20,800
right now like this is what I'm trying to do like a lot because it's important

638
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,240
because when you take your mind to do other things like have fun and stuff

639
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:28,000
like bringing your mind back to like where you were at at the end of the week

640
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,800
before it's really hard sometimes like I'm always like pulling up what I did

641
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,740
before to be like okay what was I doing and how do I continue building off that

642
00:51:36,740 --> 00:51:40,700
so just like tracking your thought process like journaling like keeping

643
00:51:40,700 --> 00:51:45,200
like a some kind of documentation and I feel like this is you know relevant to

644
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,800
you because like you're an artist and designer as well I just documenting your

645
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:53,080
work is like so important I think that social scientists forget to do that or

646
00:51:53,080 --> 00:52:01,280
like don't do that and so I started doing that like two years ago and and I

647
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,080
think the last thing that I think is really important is like and I think

648
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,160
that this goes back so it's like those contact hours was like you know

649
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:12,160
journaling about your process but that the last part is like really like

650
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:17,680
valuing your time so like I think especially when you're doing creative

651
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:23,040
work or any work where you know like no one's gonna like harp on you if you don't

652
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,960
badge into your building at like you know 8 a.m. it's not like a finance job

653
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,680
right like you know you kind of you know can do this work like kind of from

654
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,920
anywhere the boundaries are a lot more blurred I think that so I have this

655
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:39,560
thing where it's like okay like just because like I'm technically free like

656
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:46,880
10 a.m. you know on this day like I know that like my brain works the best from

657
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:53,640
like 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. and so those are like my really important hours that like

658
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:59,920
I only reserved like for myself and only if there's like special circumstances or

659
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:03,080
like if there's absolutely no other time that something can happen like then I

660
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,240
like schedule things that other people want to do during that time but you have

661
00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:10,280
to like protect your time basically because it's very easy to be like okay

662
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,360
yeah I'm gonna do this because like I'm free but like I kind of treat like my

663
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:19,480
work hours as like appointments with myself and I find that to be very

664
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,080
helpful especially like I don't know in grad school or academia in general it's

665
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,640
like people are always asking you to do like free work for them like doing in

666
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,040
the going to this meeting like serving on this committee like that's all fine

667
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,480
but like I don't want that to happen during my special hours so those

668
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,200
happen to be like my special hours but like I think it's important to figure

669
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,640
out like what your own hours are like some people are like more night owls and

670
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,440
they work better in the night like that could be their protected time but you

671
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:48,040
just have to like know yourself and know how you work and how you think and cater

672
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,560
to that so like I'm not saying like oh you have to like wake up at 7 a.m. and

673
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,680
like do all the things like morning person like you know I think you just

674
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,920
have to find like whatever works best for you and like kind of just go with

675
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:06,200
that you have to respect it and honor it and I think you know to your point about

676
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,600
not having shame when you're at the club and enjoying yourself I think one thing

677
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,200
that I find so interesting is like a lot of people think sometimes that like

678
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:21,680
being exceptional at your work means not doing things like having fun and going

679
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:27,200
out and maybe basically falling off the bein path there's like a very straight

680
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:32,040
edge way of doing work and it's not it doesn't have anything to do with like

681
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,760
substances it's just this idea of what people think successful people look like

682
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,600
and I think that's like a really unfortunate way of just approaching life

683
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:44,560
and like being exceptional because you're allowing someone to define like

684
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:49,600
what you should be proud of when really it's the most like innate joys are

685
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:56,760
self-defined and I think with academia only did an undergrad but I appreciate

686
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,080
how professors and TAs have office hours it's like these are the times that like

687
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:06,680
I'm going to take calls and as an artist you know I have my podcast hours and I

688
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:11,800
only do them on Mondays and Fridays and then I have my studio time and times

689
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,080
like where I take sales calls and those are all separate and that kind of helps

690
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:19,480
me yeah and it's important too because especially when you're like juggling

691
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,800
different responsibilities in different hats like I think it's so

692
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,880
unproductive to be like at your sales job but like worried about your design

693
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:30,160
job or worried about your podcast like it's important to separate our time out

694
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,800
like that because then you're like okay like I'm at my design job like I only

695
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,360
think about my design stuff here under my podcast like I'm thinking about

696
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:42,160
podcast stuff here and then once you're out of that time frame like you're you

697
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,760
don't have to like keep mulling over it you know like I think yeah it's like we

698
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,720
gotta move on move forward because like the wheel keeps on turning if I get

699
00:55:49,720 --> 00:55:55,080
stuck it's like well I'm gonna get run over that's how I feel like we're all

700
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,880
like little spokes in the wheel but if you get stuck sometimes you get run over

701
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:06,080
you're not like moving forward yeah so yeah so I don't know I think yeah like

702
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,720
I think that's why I was like interested in just like talking about yeah like the

703
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:13,000
creative process I think like there's a lot that we have in common even though

704
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:18,320
we day-to-day do like very different things but I think like a lot of people

705
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:24,040
like kind of wouldn't see like how academic research could be creative

706
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,560
especially more science or like STEM fields but I think it's really important

707
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,720
to like bring it back to a place of like art and creativity is though too

708
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:38,800
because I know in the work you do you're synthesizing quite a bit and as an

709
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:43,320
artist I synthesize too I'm mood boarding I'm remixing and I think like

710
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:49,320
you're doing that too from like a factual perspective like topically for

711
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:53,960
your purposes in academia it's like kind of different lanes but I think process

712
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:59,840
is so important in the arts otherwise you're just kind of like I don't know

713
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:04,960
it's like what are you asking me to like really pay attention to like how can I

714
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:12,120
see you improve it's yeah so that's what I admire process and improvement yeah I

715
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:18,400
think like one of the like hard lessons I learned early on in grad school was

716
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,840
like there was definitely a time where I was like very focused on like outcomes

717
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,760
like I wanted to win all these like fellowship awards I wanted to like do

718
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,960
all these things and the thing was like getting these like fancy fellowships

719
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,720
that like you know pay for a year of grad school or whatever is that like

720
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,880
just because you get the award doesn't mean that like you're actually gonna

721
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:41,080
like do the work that it needs to like get it just like finish your dissertation

722
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:46,360
you know like are so focused on like having these fancy titles but like I

723
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:53,400
don't know if they're always like that focused on like actually doing the work

724
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:57,560
because I was definitely me like I was like putting so much work in into like

725
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,000
packaging myself in a certain way for these fellowships when I was like wait

726
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:05,280
like the point of me getting a PhD is not to win a fellowship the point of my

727
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,400
getting the PhD is to like collect and synthesize knowledge and like

728
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,960
contribute a new aspect to what we already know in our world like that's the

729
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:18,040
whole point of like any PhD it's about like doing your research just because

730
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,840
you win a fellowship that can help you that can definitely help you do your

731
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,720
research like you you know you're paying for your grad school or whatever but

732
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:30,000
like oh yeah you're gonna do the work yeah recognition like monetary rewards

733
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,960
they serve different purposes but I think there is like again an innate

734
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:39,440
sense of gratification from following a process being able to stick to it and

735
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:44,720
continue and I think like as I get older I'm not super old but I'm like I want to

736
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:49,800
keep on doing this when I'm like 60 70 80 maybe it's gonna require a different

737
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:54,640
physical the requirements will physically be different just based upon

738
00:58:54,640 --> 00:59:00,760
how my body is but if I can learn to respect my physicality now then that

739
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:05,240
that's everything to me I don't want to just be someone who like gets a plumb or

740
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,920
fame for like crashing out because that's what so many people want kind of

741
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:14,920
and I'm like wait I think that's broken I think that's a broken system attention

742
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:22,240
isn't always good you know like yeah I'm also like we're the same age and like

743
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:32,280
obviously like when I like look back on like my life so far like I it might not

744
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,520
seem like this on the outside because yeah like on paper right like we both

745
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:42,640
like what's your first like obviously like I would say peaked like early but

746
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:48,320
actually I would say that like I've had like multiple like I have this joke now

747
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,840
that's kind of not a joke it's real where like I'm genuinely trying to peak

748
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,240
like every decade because there were definitely periods where like I was

749
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,440
flopping like every decade of my life like there are periods of like flopping

750
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:02,760
like yeah I got into Stanford you know after high school but like when actually

751
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:07,880
I was big flop era like had no direction like truly a terrible student

752
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:13,360
could not anymore and then like literally like just like kind of got my shit

753
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:18,080
together just like you know and then I like had another peak where like you

754
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:23,520
know I got into like a PhD program and then I think a lot of I don't know like

755
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,960
I don't want to throw shade but like there are a lot of people I know

756
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,440
especially growing up in like the competitive Bay Area landscape who I

757
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,440
can't again no shade everyone has like different goals in life but like from my

758
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:41,360
perspective like I think they like peaked once and a little too early and

759
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:46,720
like just I don't know just like never and I think this goes back over saying

760
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:51,760
of like being willing to change and like adapt to your environment like they kind

761
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:55,200
of were like okay let me do the Stanford thing like let me just like go into tech

762
01:00:55,200 --> 01:01:00,440
and then it's like what you know like it's like boring it gets so boring it's

763
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,160
like they they like applaud themselves for being these intellectuals and big

764
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:07,080
thinkers and I'm like well then why are you doing the same thing as everyone

765
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:12,200
else it becomes like this conformity thing I was talking to a friend about

766
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,840
this the other day where I was like you know sometimes like if you're not

767
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:19,320
careful you get a little bit too close to the Sun and then it's still like you

768
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,360
achieved all these things but still like Jersey Shore up at the top there's a

769
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:26,160
Jersey Shore at the top you know where people are just like compared like

770
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:31,680
competing for like the best baby daddy and I don't really that's like not what

771
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:36,720
I want for my life yeah like my favorite example is like yeah coming up from like

772
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,440
competitive area landscape like there's this thing called like the Intel

773
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,960
Science Fair which is like essentially the Nobel Prize for high schoolers like

774
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:48,840
if you win it you're like going to MIT and like I knew people who like I had

775
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,560
grown up with who like won the Intel and the thing is that like the reality is

776
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:56,960
that like usually their parents or someone they know like set them up in a

777
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,040
lab and like basically did the research for them and just thought their name on

778
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,720
it but whatever but they're considered to be like smart people and they end up

779
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:07,400
going to like the top schools and my issue is that like okay yeah like that's

780
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,520
great obviously these kids are like very smart very hard-working whatever like I

781
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:16,080
would say like most of the people I know who went through Intel did not end up

782
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:20,280
getting PhDs and not actually good end up going into research like they just

783
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,880
like did that to like get into Stanford and then stopped you know so I'm like

784
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,840
what is the point of that that is a shame to me because it's like a lot of

785
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:32,760
like the world-changing stuff happens like after that it's like finish your

786
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:38,800
thought like keep going I'm just saying it's like I just think like I'm not like

787
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,800
I'm not trying to throw shade at like I'm not saying like judging people for

788
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,280
like I what I think that peeking too early I I just think that like people are

789
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:52,480
not necessarily like trying to challenge themselves to continue to grow and like

790
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:56,120
everyone's metrics for like what growth means to them is obviously very

791
01:02:56,120 --> 01:03:01,280
different but like I feel like people kind of I don't know like tend to want

792
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,640
to rest on their laurels like rest on like the one time they did something

793
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,880
well but like I know for a fact that for me like if I just rested on the fact

794
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,840
that like I went to Stanford undergrad I would not have like reach other peaks

795
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:16,300
later on in life that like I didn't even know were possible for me until I like

796
01:03:16,300 --> 01:03:20,680
started challenging myself to like see what else is out there like I never had

797
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,560
intentions of like going to grad school or like going to like the number one

798
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:29,040
sociology PhD program that was not in my fucking playbook but like I think and I

799
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,640
think this kind of goes with like going into being in a flop era like I was

800
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,280
definitely flopping and so I think when your back is like up against the wall

801
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:39,520
you kind of just like I don't know like I felt like I had nothing to lose I was

802
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:43,800
just like going for it and you know what what's the worst back it's a good place

803
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:48,440
to be and sometimes like recognize like you're maybe not like failures in this

804
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,640
sense but like what's not working it's like you also went to Stanford as a

805
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:56,160
computer science person and I think sociology is oftentimes viewed as like

806
01:03:56,160 --> 01:04:00,780
entirely different but I think this is just like the physics and the reality of

807
01:04:00,780 --> 01:04:05,280
life where it's like if you're up like sometimes the only direction is down but

808
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:09,120
that's not necessarily like a bad thing it's like you you work the other side of

809
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:15,120
your brain yeah yeah I mean yeah that's just that's just my take on things like

810
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:20,360
I think I really do want to like peak every decade I like kind of have a plan

811
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:24,240
to do that like because I'm you know very Capricorn so I do actually have a

812
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:28,760
concrete plan on how I'm how exactly I'm gonna peak every decade but so I'm

813
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:33,880
working on it but like I think yeah and then one thing I wanted to say too is

814
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,940
that like it's interesting that we're talking about this because actually like

815
01:04:36,940 --> 01:04:41,080
next week I'm gonna be like interviewing like high schoolers applying to Stanford

816
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:45,840
this year like undergrad admissions tell me about that cuz like I you know dude

817
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:50,760
I never had to do an interview for Stanford but I did interviews for other

818
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:56,200
schools and some of my interviewers were just so mean assholes like I was like

819
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:00,480
sick okay so I'm not going to Harvard because this white man told me that

820
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:04,920
basically I'm not a white man I wouldn't thrive

821
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:10,000
I think okay so what's crazy is that when I was interviewing I remember like

822
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:15,880
this was an interview for Yale and we ended up like so we like met up at a

823
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:18,680
coffee shop but he was like oh like do you want to just like walk and talk I

824
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:24,520
was like yeah for sure I like prefer that you know I hate and we were like

825
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:29,040
walking through a cemetery and like we were like look like headstones if he was

826
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:33,000
like yeah you know like none of this really matters at the end of the day and

827
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:46,680
I was like I love that we all die so I'm just curious about I don't know like

828
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,880
we're essentially can you know like I feel like it was already bad when we

829
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,440
were applying to school but it's just only gotten worse like the anxiety that

830
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:57,680
like families and like kids have these days because they I think the problem

831
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,800
again going back to like peeking too early like I think the problem is

832
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:04,520
actually systemic because like we view your entire first 18 years of your life

833
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:09,120
is like going to college and like it's so important to go to like Ivy League

834
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,120
or Stanford or MIT and like that's the only thing you know you can do so a lot

835
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,240
of people base their entire like you know self-worth on that and then you're

836
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,840
so exhausted by the time you even start at a school like Stanford that like

837
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:25,040
obviously like people just kind of like stop caring so much you know and stop

838
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,720
working as hard to like you know actually learn and so I totally get that

839
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:34,640
and so I was like hovering from burnout I think like the first two years of

840
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:38,840
Stanford well just like trying to figure it out I was like wait I burned myself

841
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:43,960
out so bad in high school just trying to get here and then now you want me to

842
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:49,600
like choose a major and think about like what's gonna happen like what the fuck

843
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:52,880
like I feel like most of my time at Stanford at least undergrad was like

844
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:57,160
wasted on being burnt out from getting to Stanford like and I think that just

845
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:00,800
goes with like okay okay you graduate from Stanford and then you go work at

846
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,760
like the consulting job or the investment thinking job but then you're

847
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,880
so burnt out from getting that job that like you're hating it during it so it's

848
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:11,800
like when does that like end you know so anyway so I just I just want to talk to

849
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,960
high schoolers I my goal for it is just to like get a vibe from them obviously

850
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:20,880
just like see like what they're like out there and also just to like do what I

851
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:25,880
can to like I don't know like help ease their anxieties about their futures

852
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:32,160
because I'm like guys like you're 17 or maybe 18 like it's just yeah and you're

853
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:38,480
pretty harmless too yeah it's like as long as you don't like kill someone or

854
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:45,720
like millions of dollars or whatever like just enjoy the ride you know

855
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:52,640
develop some interests in the process yeah that's it yeah like again like

856
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:56,240
things just goes back to like process versus outcome like it like you can't

857
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,360
blame people for like being so fixated on like getting a certain outcome but

858
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:04,120
like you forget the outcome and it still might not be like the experience that

859
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,520
you thought it would be and like you still have to go through the process of

860
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:12,040
like finishing like graduated from college which at certain points I was

861
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:16,160
like well I mean I didn't even graduate on time like I literally took six years

862
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:20,280
to finish my undergrad I mean and luckily you know the the privilege of

863
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:24,320
going to school like Stanford is that I still got my ass covered because I just

864
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:28,360
like covered the extra two years by getting a master's so on paper it looks

865
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:32,560
like you know I got two degrees from six years but the reality was that like I

866
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:35,640
took six years to get my undergrad degree because I was not finishing in

867
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:40,680
four years like I just not happening so I think like yeah you know like I think

868
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,600
that's the problem with yeah just like our incentive structure is like just

869
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:48,600
it's a matter of perspective too because I hear that and I'm like that's

870
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:51,880
impressive you got your master's and your undergraduate degree in six years

871
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:57,560
and then meanwhile I think you might say about that like yeah it took me six

872
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:02,000
years that's like two years longer than me or like not sorry like well yes me

873
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:06,560
because I did four but I didn't do like a co-term but also I think the other

874
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:12,080
thing too sometimes is like I remember my parents begging me not to take time

875
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:16,480
off I finished in four years but I was also sometimes like at what cost to my

876
01:09:16,480 --> 01:09:22,840
mom and then I started like a job at Google like literally two days later and

877
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:25,520
I only see it in that world for three months because I felt like it was rushed

878
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:30,480
I was like this is not what I want to do I can't see myself doing this longer you

879
01:09:30,480 --> 01:09:35,560
got another brand name but like what is actual intrinsic value and I didn't

880
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:40,920
really feel like there was any so yeah exactly yeah so I don't know I think

881
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:47,720
yeah like I think yeah it's just it's just that I mean like one thing that I

882
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:54,920
always think about is like I don't know like I think the problems actually worse

883
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:58,400
for like higher like the kinds of students who like do end up getting into

884
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,120
these like elite schools because then you're like constantly chasing after

885
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:06,640
like what you think of is successful and like it kind of crowds out like more

886
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:10,200
creative thought about like you don't have to follow necessarily what's

887
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:14,960
successful like on paper like what success means is very different for

888
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:18,800
everyone else like for different people you always have to like actually do a

889
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:23,360
lot of like self work internal work and actually know like what your strengths

890
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:27,800
are and like play to that like why like sort of follow these like external

891
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:32,240
metrics like if it happens that like your actual strengths are in what

892
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,160
investment banking can help you cultivate and like yeah for sure go for

893
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:40,000
it but like I doubt that that's everyone like you know like yeah like you're

894
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:44,280
seeing lists like you know like even the way our schools are ranked like the US

895
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:50,800
news list like and then there's like the Forbes list like you graduate and like I

896
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:56,800
was in marketing and branding it's like these lists are pay-to-play so you got

897
01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:02,760
to think about that too it's like it does it does kind of start to feel a

898
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:08,840
little bit fake to a degree if you really care about it and I think like

899
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,600
you're doing something that you're proud of it's like being on the Forbes list I

900
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:15,960
think as someone who's doing something really innovative and like women's

901
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:19,720
health care is gonna feel really different than like someone who's just

902
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:23,800
doing it just because they want recognition and they have like enough

903
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:28,120
money to pay for it like I don't know they have met both types of people you

904
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:34,000
know yeah I'm like curious like because I feel like yeah like I'm curious like

905
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:38,240
what you like when you're like talking to people maybe like someone that you you

906
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:41,160
know loosely keep in touch with like a server or something like you ever like

907
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:44,760
me people who you like tell them what you've been up to and like you kind of

908
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:49,240
like receive judgment like from them because it's not like what's normal

909
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:55,640
consider all the time I would also get shade from people when I went to Maui

910
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:59,760
where they would I think they would kind of like bully me a little bit sometimes

911
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:04,120
like working in like the gym or yoga spaces he's like oh why are you not

912
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:08,040
like working in tech I'm like if you've ever worked in tech especially like

913
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:14,800
doing what I do it's not fun it's like a lot of people want to be doing this

914
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:20,560
actually you know the grass is always greener on the other side but I think

915
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:24,400
sometimes people do have this like high school mentality where they want it

916
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,520
they're looking for insecurities they want you to feel bad about yourself and

917
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:32,760
so I think like the most like the biggest power move is not really like

918
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:37,280
feeling bad about your choices it's like loving them regardless of what people

919
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:44,440
think because it's hard to be manipulated yeah yeah it's definitely I

920
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:47,960
think it's funny because like I feel like I think like most of my like friends

921
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:51,280
or people like you touched from Stanford they like get in they're like yeah like

922
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:56,560
that's awesome that you're like you know doing grad school and then it's

923
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,880
interesting though because like I feel like when I like ever like reconnect

924
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:02,600
with you know someone who I haven't talked to for a long time since high

925
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:07,600
school I think the reaction I get is sometimes like more judgmental because

926
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:14,840
yeah like I think people tend to view like sociology as like a downgrade from

927
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:18,560
computer science there's like this really fucked up like glorification of

928
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:22,280
STEM in our society in general they're like you're considered smart if you do

929
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:25,560
STEM and if you do anything not stem you're not smart like that's kind of

930
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:31,760
the truth that's a high grade idiocy to me so I'm like yeah we're really doing

931
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:37,040
that kind of like petty whatever I actually think some of like I think like

932
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:41,840
I don't know just being able to think critically that likes a perspective from

933
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:45,240
like a social scientist would give you it's like a different kind of smartness

934
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,560
like you can't really compare it like it's just like it's like people think

935
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:58,000
that like I like went off the deep end dude maybe I did but like yeah but also

936
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,960
the other thing too is like I just think that's so not true like as someone who

937
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:06,480
really knows you and I do wonder like does that kind of bother you like what

938
01:14:06,480 --> 01:14:11,080
other people think if they think you went off the deep end because you like

939
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:15,360
do so much for like yourself and your community and like people in your life I

940
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:20,640
think that is so much more important than the perception of people who care

941
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:25,000
so little about things that really matter yeah I think it used to bother me

942
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:30,280
more I mean I would definitely be lying if like I didn't care at all about like

943
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:35,400
how people perceive me because like I do like the thing is like I know what I'm

944
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:40,200
capable of I know I'm very smart and like I don't want people I hate when

945
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:46,880
people think I'm dumb I don't think that and so but I think ultimately I'm not

946
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:52,680
super worried about it because actually like I am definitely trying to play like

947
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,880
the long game where it's like okay right now like you think I'm a nobody

948
01:14:55,880 --> 01:15:01,520
because you are making all this money at your bank or tech job and I'm like a

949
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:06,480
grad student and you know whatever but like I kind of plan on playing the long

950
01:15:06,480 --> 01:15:10,920
game because like ultimately like I do want to be a professor like I am gonna

951
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:15,600
be tenured I'm gonna have a lifetime job I might even get pension when I'm older

952
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:20,040
because if I work at a public university like I just have like different goals in

953
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:24,040
life and I think like I'm really happy with the choices I made so ultimately

954
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:28,320
I'm like it's fine like like and I think like it's yeah so it's both like I'm

955
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:33,840
happy with the choices I made but also I am definitely I do feel like I have

956
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:39,880
something to prove and like I plan on doing that so that's why I'm okay with it

957
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:43,960
it's good fuel if anything like sometimes I'll take people's sly little

958
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:48,760
remarks and just save that for later when I need motivation and that's another

959
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:52,080
way I'm hardwired unfortunately because you know I would be lying to if I said

960
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:56,960
that what like older men at my job think doesn't matter to me like that's a lie

961
01:15:56,960 --> 01:16:01,640
like I do care because like I worked really hard to like even make a switch

962
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:06,720
from something like you know working in the social sciences and like talking

963
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:13,720
about cities to then like basically being a tradesperson you know yeah and

964
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:18,280
but I like what I do I like being able to have ideas and then like execute so

965
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:23,720
satisfying yeah that was like something I made a choice for myself and I felt

966
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:28,080
lonely in that decision as well but I meet people all the time who like make

967
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:35,120
switches and I'm proud of them if anything I'm like you're you like

968
01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:38,000
really believe that you could do this and you put in the work to do it that's

969
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:49,640
so cool yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well I value your thoughts and opinions

970
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:55,600
so much and I'm happy to have you on the podcast again yay thank you for joining

971
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,600
me today