Hi and welcome to the Po Party. This is Jules. I'm your host. Today we have Janna
who is one of my good time long time friends. We went to Stanford together. We
met as freshmen in the same dorm and today we were talking about art and
creativity in academia but also how to approach long-term creative problems
that don't necessarily like have a lot of structure to them. I think we both
approach this as well me a designer creative who works on my own but also
with the studio and she has a PhD in sociology at Berkeley who is writing a
PhD dissertation but also has like a lot of free time to structure time. So I
think structuring time is really difficult for people these days
especially when it comes to like working on long-term projects that become a body
of work and this is something I wanted to talk about because I see a lot of
creative struggle with this even myself still I have to be kind of strict with my
time and I'm learning, flowing, ebbing, whatnot and I think this is kind of
timely for me because I recently took on a few different gigs that are in person
they helped provide me with structure and I think it's done a wonder for my
mental health and my quality of work because for a few years when I was just
working remote and taking on freelance project projects it was truly the Wild
West and left to my own devices I actually get a lot of work done but it's
not necessarily healthy and I could stray from one direction of either
having no work-life balance or you know working way too much or like partying
too much so recently what I've been doing I think has really helped me and
kind of reminds me of being in school sometimes where I'm in an office a few
days a week or teaching class but then it's not structured by an institution
it's structured by me and basically the 1099 contracts that I agreed to and I
like it frankly like I remember one of my biggest letdowns when I graduated
from college and entered the workforce was just how much of my time I could
not control but I actually feel like I have more control over my schedule these
days and what kind of projects they say yes to but there are certain social
factors that are really important to me like agreeing to meet someone at a
certain time and place to work in person you know like approaching work and
making contact with it which is like one thing Jana talks about during certain
hours just to get the brain flowing it's it's very structured and I think those
types of ways of moving forward through time are extremely important to get the
wheel turning because there have been moments in my life where I felt run over
by the wheel of time so without further ado we're talking with Jana today and I
hope you enjoy this episode oh by the way if you don't know me my name is
Jules you can go to my website juliaspero.me that's J-U-L-I-A-E-S-P-E-R-O.me
to check out my portfolio my work and let's stay connected if you haven't
already go ahead and follow this podcast read it five stars and listen to it
wherever you like podcasts and if this episode inspires you at all today feel
free to share it with a friend send it to your mom I'm sure she'll love it
all right let's go hey I love your maps how's it going
it's good I also had like a after I was like texting you yeah you were asking me
what we should talk about I was like going to my car and my car battery like
died no sorry so normally like Yanni has cables but like he had already gone to
work and so I was literally like standing on the street just like waiting
for people like literally just like approaching random people in the street
being like do you have jumper cables and eventually this like elderly Asian
man did and he was like yeah like he literally he was like walking with like
his groceries and like he was like okay yeah like I'll go to my apartment I'll
come back oh that's someone helped you yeah yeah I just like I don't want to
call triple-a cuz they would take forever to come they do they take
forever anyways I'm stoked to have you on the podcast again cuz it's been a
year and I'm just gonna go ahead and start recording and I'll edit it and
send it to you later yeah you know the drill Janet thank you for joining me back on the
podcast I know you're writing a PhD thesis this year and we're gonna talk
about creativity in academia today so as a Peggy goo of academia what does that
mean to you yeah so one thing I have to say is that I've like started my
dissertation this year but I won't be finishing till spring 27
um oh wow yeah cuz that shit does not happen overnight but I'm excited about
it um I guess to your opening question yeah you know it's work hard play hard
out here yeah I feel like my life these days is very much like prioritizing work
during the week and then prioritizing play on the weekends and so I find that
it's been really helpful for me because I feel like especially in academia or
any kind of like creative process that takes a while it's very easy to like let
work consume your life like you can just there's always like stuff to do and you
can always be working and I used to do that but I think now my my mode is more
like treating my work like a nine-to-five which is what it really is
and then trying to maintain like a life outside of it and traveling and you know
going to festivals or going out a lot or like friends is like really important
for me and then yeah and I find that like my work is better because of that
it's like the nine-to-five schedule really does kind of get you boundaries
when you when you follow it to it I'm you can hear my nephews yeah like that
Super Smash Bros and Charlie my dog I'll give them a second oh my gosh I want to
talk to you about our cosanti a little bit but I do have this kind of broader
question because obviously you're not a white man in academia so what would you
say to the people who think that academia is a white man's club full of
intellectuals I think I have a lot of hope in the future of academia because I
think that historically yeah it's been you know it obviously has skewed towards
like white men or just white people in general from like Western countries and
even like it and the problem with that is that actually is sort of narrows the
focus of what people study I mean especially in sociology like if like
white people from the Western world are in mostly in the field then the focus of
attention and what's deemed important to study is like what's happening in the
West and so I think that yeah so it's not just a problem with diversity it's
like it literally like limits what's what like sociology could be you know so I
think that's like the history of that but I actually have a lot of optimism
about the future of like sociology and academia in general because I do see a
lot more diverse like grad students like pretty much everyone in my cohort and
the cohort like the majority of people in my cohort and the cohorts around me
in my program and I know what other schools like we're mostly all people of
color actually like majority women generally with like more progressive
values and not really about this like gatekeeping mentality I think there's
like basically like three generations of like recent academia so one is
obviously like you know white elite you know people and then the second
generation actually was like maybe like the generation of or two above us where
you know that you're starting to have like the first like Latino woman
faculty member but I think because opportunities are so limited for them
and they're quite successful and it's not that they don't want to help but
they do also kind of have a scarcity mindset around academia or like they
take these very personally they're like oh like you're not respecting me because
I'm a woman it's like no like it's not because it's like you're also maybe like
you don't treat your students well you know so like you know people have a hard
time with that and then I think then there's like this current generation of
like up-and-coming academics I think yeah like we kind of have moved away
from the scarcity mindset thing and like you know we know that there's like more
than one spot for us in the world so yeah that's kind of how I see it yeah so
a lot of optimism ultimately yeah yeah that's so good and what you just said
because you brought up this point about some people don't treat their students
very well maybe that's why they're not super like it has nothing to do with
identity and I think especially this week this November first week of November
of 2024 what I've been thinking a lot about is how even in the places I work
like as a practicing designer who sometimes works with like people of all
different ages like professors people who are like fresh out of college or
like have been working for like 10 years like pre-covid in covid remote
environments and now in person like it's kind of obvious who's been working and
like working in different ways and who hasn't and it's like kind of stuck in
this idea of like you should just be praised for being older and like having
experience and sometimes I have to check myself too sometimes I'm like am I
resting on my laurels like I know I went to Stanford I know I did like a lot of
training I know I work pretty hard but like at the end of the day you're only
as good as like your ability to function on a team sometimes so yeah I mean like
what are your thoughts on that I'm thinking about humility and what that
really means and maybe how it works functionally but some people don't
aspire to be humble so I mean I think I was just talking about this this morning
with a friend in the covert in my department but I think I think we're
like in a really like it we're in a peer to people are like I think quite
sensitive about a lot of things and I think and I say sensitive in the sense
that I don't know if people are actually like receptive to feedback and like
learning from it because people tend to take things so personally and they
always say like when people are giving you feedback you should like even if the
other like regardless of the person was giving you feedback what their intentions
are you should always approach it as like their credit they're critiquing
your work and not you like I feel like that's like the bottom line and I feel
like yeah like I think this goes to like your humility thing because I think it
actually is like a very prideful thing to like take someone's honest feedback to
you so personally and be like oh like they're just being a bitch or like they
don't like me but it's like no like maybe if you had more humility you can
actually look at your work from like someone else's point of view and like at
least try to understand where that came from rather than like yeah taking things
so personally and like and ultimately not changing or learning you know it's
not to say like you have to like change entirely who you are but I think it's
important to like constantly learn and like adapt and grow like I just think
that's the problem right now with like even if I got a work team or when you're
getting feedback on a paper or like you're making an art piece and you're
getting feedback like you're just never gonna not get feedback I think yeah so
that's how I kind of view it yeah yeah and I think feedback is kind of a
precious thing too because like you can work by yourself for sure but there's
always I think for me sometimes like imposter syndrome is this nagging
thought of like I don't know what I don't know but if you just like open your
mind to let people critique you and take it it kind of is soothing you're like
okay I considered other people's thoughts and I tried and that's all you
can do yeah yeah yeah so your paper is gonna take about we're in 2024 2027
that's when you aim to have it done damn what's the process of that like yeah so
and what is it about yeah so my dissertation is actually three papers
dissertations at least in my field kind of work is that you either like write
like a book length dissertation where it's like basically the first draft of
the book you're gonna publish or you like write three papers that like fit
together in a certain way just staple them together and that's your
dissertation so I think I'm going like the three paper route and yeah so it's
broadly about like the emergence of sustainability in global climate
governance so how our organizations and people like adapting to climate change
through the lens of like sustainability work so I'm trying to look at this from
sort of like it's called like polycentric but you could think of it as
kind of like a nested Russian doll kind of perspective so um the first paper
kind of looks at it at an international like historical level so like how did
this idea of like sustainability come about because we know that it took a
while for like climate change to like take hold as a concept so then
subsequently like how did the idea of sustainability as a response to climate
change play out and so the first is a more historical paper the second paper
kind of like okay looks specifically at companies and corporations and these
organizations and looking at these different sort of like competing
logics and visions around sustainability so one view is like to be sustainable we
have to like completely kind of reduce consumption degrowth the economy like we
can't hinge our economic growth on consumption that's just simply you know
bad for the environment we have to like completely change the way we do our
economy and there's another view that's like okay it's possible for like our
current capital system to still exist and we could just like make it better so
it's basically like abolition versus reform right and so I've been doing a
lot of like interviews and have a lot of data on like companies all around the
world and just looking at you know what kind of policies are working it does
that actually reduce emissions and sort of these different like logics at play
and then the third like so the inside nested all is looking at people within
companies right so yeah so just as a summary right we have the international
then we have organizational level now we're looking at people inside companies
and I think the main thing I'm very curious about is like okay so companies
are actually hiring a lot more like sustainability professionals they're
hiring like chief sustainability officers like sustainability directors
like this has been a growing field and it will continue to be I think despite
the election and so I'm just curious you know like for these people who have
these roles like how do they sort of square their personal values on
sustainability with the or sort of organizational demands of their job
right so like for example I was interviewing like sustainability
directors at large mining companies in Australia or like Chevron or like you
know sometimes companies in really bad sectors and actually I think what's
really interesting is that a lot of the people in these roles they actually mean
really well like they're not like evil people who want to like ruin the world
like they actually they view that like they can make change like within the
company and it's maybe more impactful to like like have that role in you know an
oil and gas company then like recycling company for example and so yeah so I've
just been interviewing people who work in sustainability how they sort of
navigate their jobs and their values and their identities you know like when do
they have to compromise their values and when do they not have to so yeah so
that's the overall what my question is about which kind of sounds like a lot but
yeah I like to reverse already done so I just have like you're trapping along so
wait which one is left for you to write the like is the first one like the
historical one because I think that is a broad yeah yeah the hardest part
actually was like interviewing companies like like getting companies to like talk
to me about climate change is like you might imagine kind of hard and so I
spent like the last like two years like literally cold emailing like hundreds of
companies like I had this like database of like companies that report their
emissions to their investors and so I started there and then I would literally
like Google every single company and then pull up their sustainability
reporting because what you might not know is that companies now put out both
financial reports and sustainability reports like it's like a thing now and
so I would go through the sustainability reporting and like look if there's like
a contact email in that report like an office like a sustainability office
email or something and if there was an email I would just like send them this
cold email and try to get an interview and so yeah so it was very like tedious
process but yeah I've been able to talk to like around 70 people or companies on
this topic so I feel good with like a number of interviews I have on that and
then in terms of like professionals in the workplace on that I think I've talked
to like almost 40 people on that so more than like a hundred interviews on this
topic and you know as you might know like I know like analyzing interviews
also takes a while so yeah so that's what I spent most of my you're doing so
actually the historical piece I haven't done it yet but it feels a lot easier
because I could I don't have to depend on like other people will taking the
time to talk to me I can just like do that on my own time yeah yeah that is
actually I totally agree with you when I used to write papers it's like yeah you
can kind of just like digest what has happened like analyze it from a new
perspective considering current context but then like present-day qualitative
interviews well those are really challenging for me because I'm curious
like what are some of the themes you're looking at are there like notable quotes
that come up what strikes you yeah so the one I always say is that I interviewed
the the the first director of sustainability at like the largest
electric utilities company in the Czech Republic and she made this interesting
comment where she said that so she was like the first person hired for this
role they like created this role and she was the first person hired for it and
she made this comment that she said that she believes that she was hired because
she has more of a background actually in academic research and so she you know
has a very data-driven approach to everything and she said that like the
CEO of the company wanted someone who would treat sustainability as like a
data like a techno technological problem and not an ideological thing like that's
like a direct quote she's like sustainability is you know a data
problem it's not ideological and I think that would strike people as surprising
because you know obviously there's a lot of activism around climate change it
like everything is like ideological including like how you view climate
change and what should be done about it so it's interesting that for I think for
a large part because of the sort of emerging regulations around companies
and climate change it is treated kind of like a technological data-driven problem
so what I mean by that is basically the main regulation we have right now on
companies and climate change is that companies are actually any publicly
listed company in most countries with like you know developed economies they
pretty much have to report their emissions like emissions accounting to
the SEC like to the securities regulator so it's not like they have to report to
the EPA it's like the literal US Securities and Exchange Commission is
like requiring this so companies always have to report every year on their like
financials to the SEC right and so they're starting to have to do this as
well with emissions so this is like quite legitimate regulation like it's
not they're not bullshitting around here and this is the same in the EU this is
the same in like Japan New Zealand like all over and so companies have to report
this and I think overall it's it is a good thing right like there should be
like reporting and transparency so that once you start reporting your emissions
there's a way to like track it and you should overall be reducing it um but I
think that sometimes as with like a lot of like solutions that we try to throw
at problems like you know when you actually talk to people at companies and
you're saying like okay do you think that collecting all this data like is
it actually like changing you know emissions or changing what a company's
doing a lot of the times like you talk to these sustainability people and they
say that they spend so much time basically like crunching numbers on
emissions on Excel and like doing all this like emailing in the company to
like get data on emissions that the most of the effort actually just goes towards
like reporting their emissions and like just fulfilling these like disclosure
requirements rather than like actually reducing your emissions right it's like
they're just trying to like comply with regulations now which overall is like a
good thing but if whether or not it actually like addresses the goals of it
which is to reduce emissions because the earth is still warming up like it's kind
of a more mixed picture right and so yeah so that's kind of yeah like one of
the main things that I've been finding in my research so yeah and I think one
thing I would add to is that like on a broader scale I think it's been really
really fascinating to actually like look directly at corporations and what they're
doing about climate because I think especially in sociology like the focus
on like inequality so you're often studying like sort of marginalized
minority groups or you know divisions across class gender race things like that
and those are all super important I think oftentimes like whenever you say
like yeah I'm studying companies and climate change people will be like why
like companies aren't gonna do anything right like why even bother looking at
them and I think I definitely also had that take going in I was like why would
I do that like obviously it's all bad but actually I think like the more you
actually look at it first of all it's you have to like look at it because if
we're actually gonna do anything about climate change especially like if we're
not addressing like the largest emitters like what are you gonna look at you know
so I think it's important to like actually look at what companies are doing
and second of all once you actually start getting into it like you see that
it's a much more complex picture like it's there is like some good that's
happening there's also like some bad that's happening there's also some where
it's like people are just trying to figure it out that doesn't mean that the
people in these companies are like evil like capitalist pigs you know like I
think that people just like really are trying to do better and like sometimes
it's just kind of like the nature of like surviving in our economy like
companies want to survive as well so I just think it's a lot more complicated
which makes it really interesting to look at like yeah in my view yeah
actually I really agree I think wow you it almost sounds like an accounting
problem like a mass accounting problem at the moment and I think that is a good
thing especially for companies where like the bottom line is oftentimes the
issue and so then when you put like a quantity on something like carbon or
sustainability and you can then measure it at least gives you a baseline for
change I think recently this past week from a branding and marketing
perspective I got on a call with the CEO their team and my team that I work with
and it was interesting because we wanted to talk broadly about values as a brand
in terms of sustainability maybe some of the values that people get from this
consumer product good like whether that's like true sustainability in terms
of creating the product or like cleanliness and not like having to you
know like I'm trying to be broad because I don't want to talk about this product
specifically but some people use like washcloths for example and washcloths
aren't actually that clean but there are you know ways of like maybe you know
purchasing a product maybe it costs you more money but if it lasts longer and
it's actually like healthier for you then maybe that is like a true
reflection of value and like a good way of spending money and I think when it
comes to value and the way that I see people like invest their time and money
lately I think bringing it back to like an arts perspective as well what I see
sometimes is like a reluctance for people to receive money in exchange for
their work and like their value and I'm like money isn't inherently evil I think
it's necessary it's like actually what do you get out of this and like what
exchange is happening and I see a lot of times like a reluctance for people to
even do any sort of exchange when it comes to like goods and services because
they don't want to call their art or their creativity like a good or a
service but I think if we kind of just like bring it back to the baseline of
like well if I'm exchanging like money for something that you do like we can
define values with language but maybe like the quantity of like exchanging
money and like recording it is important even though it doesn't feel like
supernatural yeah yeah I think yeah basically yeah like money and also like
data are like a means and people treat it like an end you know and I think that
like complicates a lot of like our work and our relationships yeah it's really
tough to you because I'm like is there ever really an end no that's like kind
of what I'm starting to feel lately I'm like yeah you can see something as a
means to end but there's never truly an end so like what is that actually yeah
I don't yeah things keep on going you can only observe like results yeah yeah
so from a historical perspective like what is the first piece of history
you're looking at for your third paper yeah so I think the first one basically
just starts with like the Rio Earth Summit in 1992 92 baby yeah it's the
birth year of my ex anyways let's go relatively recent too because some in
96 baby I'm 28 92 that is like 32 years ago yeah these are incredibly relevant
years yeah so actually okay sorry the first one actually is that I had a look
at the year the first one is 1987 actually so um this was like the first time like a
formal definition was made for sustainability this was basically a
report that came out of one of like the like global meetings they were starting
to set up and they defined sustainability as quote meeting the
needs of the present without compromising the ability of future
generations to meet their own needs yeah it's kind of broad but also I think it
like I think people agree on this definition but like in very different
ways because some people would be like oh we have to meet the needs of the
future generation by like conserving the planet and then other people feel like
we have to meet the needs because like they're like we have to like still have
like capitalism and you know competition and blah blah so I think yeah so I think
that's where it kind of starts and then yeah that was 1987 and then it just kind
of like ratchets up from there with like the 92 Rio Earth Summit and then all
these like sort of global meetings that happen every year like the COP you know
COP 26 27 28 and the UN and like you know all these like global meetings and
so yeah it's definitely like interesting I don't know like I feel like if I were
to keep like yapping about this I would also say that like I I think that I
don't know if I've talked about this before but I believe that like the idea
of like the global is like a recent invention because for like you know most
of like human history you like existed within like your local context right and
I really think that or like I actually nothing like I know that that we didn't
actually have this concept of the global until like after both world wars and in
the rise of like the Cold War when we and when we started literally sending
people to space and then you could actually have the technology to like
take a picture of the earth and that picture of the earth which if you think
about as a concept like we kind of take it for granted now like we have social
media like everything just feels like global international but like that just
like was not the case like that we did not have that technology like 70 years
ago for that and so once like images of the whole earth started becoming
circulated and we started having things like TV and like radio and stuff like
over time like we have this idea of the global and I talk about this because
that sort of laid the path for having things like the UN and like being able to
have like international agreements on climate which are super important you
know like and like our interdependence on other countries and other places like
in our current economy and so yeah so I think it's important for like dealing
with these global problems that we have and also it's important because I think
it's crazy that like people now are like all around the world are like going
against like the global they're becoming more insular like nationalism
nationalisms on the rise like Trump is gonna like impose tariffs and other
countries are doing the same and so I think like there's been this backlash
against the global and I think it's important to like emphasize like how
important it is like we're at a point where we can't reverse back to like you
know just living in our own context like it sounds nice and like you know living off your
land and from your own country but like it's I don't think we can go back to
that like we're so dependent like globally. The homestead mindset is like super I think
fantastical charming bucolic pretending like you're in Little House in the
Prairie like living in modern-day Idaho but even if you want that it's like your
machinery like the parts are being made abroad like you cannot excuse yourself
from a global context and I think when I think about like globalism and the
economy we're literally operating from a unit of one if the earth is like a unit
that's one you can break that down into like whatever metrics you want but I
think that first quote that you mentioned like trying but what is it
exactly could you repeat it? It's meeting the needs of the present without
compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. Yeah
I don't know that strikes me as like a budget it's like are you gonna bet your
load like at the slots in Vegas today it's like probably not a good idea if
you're trying to meet the the needs of the future you kind of have to invest
in what is needed today and I don't know if we've been doing that frankly with
our money as a country as a society but it's worth noting I think that's like
where some of those like themes of human values on a personal level come in it's
like what people believe will happen and sometimes there's this nihilism and this
idea that there isn't necessarily a future that leads to like poor spending
habits as I've like educated myself on personal finance but I think that is like
super applicable even when I see the way people spend and like new industries
like how we're talking to this one client that might be like luxury space
travel and I've noticed that like that's come up a lot too because you know
there's always like this thought of like you know maybe people are not really
willing to accept globalism but they're almost like more willing to accept like
this idea of like outside the earth and I'm like wait a second I feel like
that's more than we've shown ourselves capable of yeah digesting yeah actually
yeah when you were saying like spending like people like spending habits because
obviously there's like you can't blame people because like there's so much
uncertainty and so like why not just like take care of your what you want
today because like the future so like uncertain so it's like an obvious
response but like I actually have this like working theory that like I think
our next like major or like huge financial crisis is gonna come from
platforms like buy now pay later because I think like their rise of those things
like it's so dangerous because people simply cannot afford the things that
they are like trying to do and it's such a consumer trap like at least like when
I don't know when we were coming up and like we got credit cards it was like
don't buy something that like you don't think you can a hundred percent payback
and okay sure a lot of people have credit card debt but then now this is at a
layer of like okay when you're online shopping you can just like do like for
installments of like 50 bucks like each month and it feels a lot more affordable
but what happens when people on mass can't stop can't start paying it back
and then these lenders can't pay back like their banks like that's gonna lead
to like some kind of crisis I think like you're not wrong I think it's kind of
like happening to like in real time slowly because I I knew people so
anecdotally that were making so much money just off of like selling content
or like selling services like photography even in 2020 because there
was this mass panic of like oh no we can't like work in person better go
digitally but now like four years later there is no longer this pressure of like
oh I need to have like a digital presence if anything people have like
built up a digital presence and if they're still overspending then like
they don't want to put more money towards things like digital services and
if they suddenly like made a bunch of money and like bought a bunch of things
like with the firm we're like buy now pay later it's like we're running up on
that now it's like yeah do you have the same amount of money coming in as you
did and if you're like a photographer who is making way more like four years
ago than now it's super it's kind of scary it's like you might have to file
for bankruptcy yeah yeah so we'll see we'll see what happens very quickly
like my advisor at Berkeley actually I like had this paper a few years ago
where he said that like he argues that like the main reason why the Fed overlooked
the markers for like the 2008 crisis was because all our frames for a financial
crisis were based on like sort of traditional finance so like growth like
inflation like employment like those like sort of classic indicators but they
have sort of completely overlooked like how much of the American economy relied
on like housing and like mortgages and like loans and so like he sort of showed
through analyzing like all like the Fed meetings leading up to the financial
crisis that like this was brought up by a very small minority of economists on
the staff but it was like overshadowed by people were like no like that's that's
outside like economics like that won't lead to a crisis but like it did so
people like often overlook like how people are actually spending their money
and like you know like how people actually accrue debt like on scale and
so I think yeah so like now we know obviously okay so now the Fed is like
aware of like housing but like I don't know how they're aware of like you know
other areas like buy now pay later even like money tied up in like you know
crypto or like betting markets and sports gambling there's so many things
that people are doing to like stay afloat in our economy and I think yeah
if you're just like it is kind of like a camp it's like it's gambling yeah it's
like concerning how many people make money just from gambling and then when
your emotions are involved in involved in it and it isn't actually like super
predictable yeah actually these are like my shower thoughts I'm like wait so like
when our tax system was created I'm sure they had no idea that like crypto dick
butts and these like coins called like Sheba and bonk which is people like
millionaires overnight like I don't think these people are paying their
taxes either like why are why are we chasing waitresses who make like five
hundred dollars in one night it's like nothing in comparison okay cool well so
with all that being said recently you went to a festival how was it what were
your favorite things about it could you tell us about it and would you go again
yeah um yeah so recently I went to this music festival called forum Arcosanti
and it's at the place called Arcosanti in Arizona and it's basically like a
experimental town created by this architect and they were trying to
combine like architecture and ecology it's like a very like beautifully
designed building sort of set in what's like around what's called like the Verde
Valley in Arizona is like this beautiful stretch of like canyons in Arizona and
the place actually now makes a lot of their sort of revenue from like hosting
like farm-to-table workshops during the year or they have a year-round volunteer
program and they also actually are foundries so they make bells so they make
these like iron bells which I actually bought and so that's like what it's like
today and actually what the cool thing about Arcosanti I have to say is that
it's entirely like volunteer built so they have a foundation but like it's
kind of like reflecting the sort of like hippie back-to-the-land like commune kind
of era and so yeah so I think that's like the kind of like crowd it still kind of
attracts to this day and so every year they have this music festival called
FORM I think it started in 2015 maybe it's like a pretty small festival so
it's like maybe 2,000 people total and just for comparison like last week I
went to go see Caternata like a normal sort of big artist concert in Berkeley
and the crowd was 10,000 people so normally concerts can have like 10,000
people in one night this entire festival is 2,000 people so it's really really
small and they have they always have like really you know big artists come
through and I liked it because actually it was like a very diverse slate of
artists so it wasn't just EDM it wasn't just like you know like rock music so
they're a foundry does that mean like iron working you bought a bell iron
working oh Shabaka Shabaka who's like a really talented like flutist and so
there's like a flute artist there was like a spoken word artist named Asia
Monet would like do spoken word with like a band behind her so there's like
music accompanying in the back like I literally cried like during one of her
like songs or like poems because the poem was called like for the kids and
she's talking about like kids who like you know get their lives like cut short
the opportunities cut short because of like the society we live in um and so
there was like spoken word there was like these like super talented pianists
there was yeah there was yeah just like a lot of diversity music and and yeah it
was it was a really cool event and I think what was really interesting about
this festival compared to other ones is that there's like no VIP and like the
line between artists and people in the crowd is very very thin it's like one of
the only festivals I think where like when the artist isn't performing they're
literally just like at the festival they're like in the crowd which I've
never seen ever because normally especially when most places have like
VIP because you know that's how festivals make money like if the artist
is at the festival they're probably in the VIP section yeah so I've been to
festivals through friends who are artists where I've had the privilege of
going backstage and then like hanging out around artists who are just chilling
it's like one of the nicest experiences actually because you get to kind of see
their side where they're like really hanging out and then they're like
preparing mentally and then kind of like hyping each other up and then I truly
wish there are more experiences like that but it really requires people to be
like kind of chill enough around people who create to understand like the
emotional vulnerability that it takes to like just relax and then literally have
to perform afterwards or like vice versa so I think that kind of probably says
something about form and like the environment that they create where
people are willing to do that yeah that's great yeah yeah yeah I would
probably yeah I would try to keep going every year I would say like the top
favorite is still like Burning Man I think such different scales of festivals
though and like requirements for participating right yeah I would say
like yeah I think I mean I would I think like I had a way better time at
form than like they're like different but like I would say Burning Man is still
probably my favorite because it quite literally is like the template that like
a lot of these other festivals try to be like and it really is like it's like the
source of like you know a lot of like the creativity that you see at these
other sort of like festivals and so it's hard to like honestly say like okay form
is better just because they're so different you can't really compare it
um but like I think you see like the clear sort of lines that have come out
of Burning Man and form is one of them I think there's like a lot of like
burners at form like from there's a lot of burners in like Phoenix apparently
and you get a lot of people from like LA and the Bay so it's like that kind of
crowd so so yeah so it was good and yeah I feel like I always come back from like
festivals like like I don't know like I personally don't really like I feel like
my biggest maybe like flex is that like I don't really get like depressed or
like I was about to say I'm not tired after festivals I'm like way more
energized yeah even if I was you know like doing a lot of stuff at these
festivals like I actually always come back like a lot more like yeah motivated
and I think that's why like it's like really important to me to continue just
like having fun and like sort of connecting it makes my work better yeah
I'm curious so like what's your internal dialogue like when you're at a festival
and you're coming back and you know you have like work coming up because I truly
believe that sometimes like thought patterns are replicable so what's your
inner dialogue like or is there just like no thoughts you're just vibing I
actually like do a lot of like background thinking about my work and I
actually reflect a lot on like where like sort of like my progress and like
where I started from so I think like I'm actually quite literally always like
thinking thoughts in the club like and and I think a couple years ago I
definitely had like very like negative self-talk I'm always like you know like
it's hard not to like when you're thinking about like your work and you're
like oh I still have to do this and like why didn't I do this and blah blah so
that's very natural I think like over the years I don't do that really like at
all anymore I don't think it's productive on like my energy I mean
sometimes it still happens but like I can like get out of it pretty quickly
now but I think so it kind of so like when I'm thinking thoughts in the club
like I like have to sort of stream so one is I do think practically like okay
like what have I done so far what's left to be done I'm thinking about like
different ways to sort of solve like like these problems that I'm like like
puzzles that I'm seeing in my work and like how do I like analyze it this way
or that way so I'm definitely thinking in the background but on the other hand
I'm not coming out of a place of like blame or self-hatred or shame or
anything or guilt like it's very much like I all I honestly like like think a
lot about like I don't know just like how much progress I made like I'm like
so proud of myself for like you know continuing to do this I think about like
how far I've come from like how I used to sort of I had a much more like toxic
relationship with like myself in my work and I think you can really like I'm
definitely someone where I wish my identity and self-worth was not tied to
work but the thing is like as we talked about this morning like I'm a Capricorn
and Taurus delium I have six planets three in Capricorn three in Taurus so
it is true that like I just gotta keep on climbing I think we're hardwired for
it too I think it's like from a young age somewhere like we were like praised
for output and then we're also good at it and so it's like well let me you know
when you're a child you're like let me just see how far I can go with this and
then literally like almost three decades later you're like oh fuck like I can
literally keep on going but it's not always healthy so you have to like kind
of then start working backwards where it's like how do I save myself from this
yeah so yeah so anyway so those are like my two strengths to like streams like I
am always like I don't know it's like I think it's hard not to like just like
think about things like just problems that you're trying not to say like I
have a problem in my work but just like I very much it's kind of like a math
problem like I'm just puzzling over like yeah work work is essentially a problem
there's that problem and then there can be a larger problem outside of work but
I think that's like what a lot of people strive to avoid yeah and then yeah so
that's one stream and the other stream is like just being like wow like I think
I I did the best I could and like this is awesome and I love myself yay and so
that's sort of my two streams and so yeah like I think when it comes to the
other part of your question which is like how do you like sort of go back to
your work like during the week and stuff like I think like over the years I've
actually developed I could write a whole book on this I think like which I might
do actually but like I will yeah I have a bunch of I have a bunch of like methods
that I do that like I stick to and that's how I sort of bring my brain back
and so for example one thing that I was sort of mentioned the beginning was like
being strict about my boundaries so just because you know I just came back from
traveling or whatever like and it's Monday like I don't have to start at
exactly 9 a.m. but like I do get my work started at some point that morning like
10 or 11 like just even like sitting down and pulling up your stuff again
from like Friday and just like sitting with it I think it always kind of gets
like the creative juices flowing like I very much view it as similar to like an
artist like going to their studio every day like some days you're like super
productive in the studio but other days like you just have to sit there and
tinker around like not everything is gonna be like a final product that the
world sees but like the process of thinking about your things like you know
experimenting with something that's like all part of the process those as well
like in academia you're running this analysis on something and the results
you're getting are like not a result like it's not a result you wanted it's
not a result that means anything but no result is still a result because now you
like know a little bit more about the thing you're studying and so you can
kind of like think about what to do next so I think it's important to just always
sit with it and so I actually call this method contact hours because I think
that a lot of time when we're dealing with like a big project like we think
that oh like if I like as much anxiety about it like you're procrastinating and
like I think for me like I just literally have to like open the project and just
make some contact with it you know and I think like that's always better than
like not touching your project at all because like you're so scared about it
like you and the more you procrastinate like the worse it gets right and so it's
like you just have to like you're creating a distance instead of contact
which is what you're doing just exposing yourself yeah and so that's like one
thing and then another thing that I've started doing like like two years ago
that I no one like taught me but like I like think it's like a really good
method is like I actually keep like basically like a journal tracking every
single day that I've been working and I kind of got this idea from stem like
sciences because in stem they have like a lab notebook and every time you're in
the lab you like write down what you did and like how it went and you know what
to do next and no one in the social sciences has ever talked about doing
that and I think that for me it's really helpful because every day I base and
they these are notes that like only I see so like you know like you can write
whatever you want and so every day I just kind of like whatever I'm doing I
just kind of document it and I'm like okay like this is my thought process
right now like this is what I'm trying to do like a lot because it's important
because when you take your mind to do other things like have fun and stuff
like bringing your mind back to like where you were at at the end of the week
before it's really hard sometimes like I'm always like pulling up what I did
before to be like okay what was I doing and how do I continue building off that
so just like tracking your thought process like journaling like keeping
like a some kind of documentation and I feel like this is you know relevant to
you because like you're an artist and designer as well I just documenting your
work is like so important I think that social scientists forget to do that or
like don't do that and so I started doing that like two years ago and and I
think the last thing that I think is really important is like and I think
that this goes back so it's like those contact hours was like you know
journaling about your process but that the last part is like really like
valuing your time so like I think especially when you're doing creative
work or any work where you know like no one's gonna like harp on you if you don't
badge into your building at like you know 8 a.m. it's not like a finance job
right like you know you kind of you know can do this work like kind of from
anywhere the boundaries are a lot more blurred I think that so I have this
thing where it's like okay like just because like I'm technically free like
10 a.m. you know on this day like I know that like my brain works the best from
like 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. and so those are like my really important hours that like
I only reserved like for myself and only if there's like special circumstances or
like if there's absolutely no other time that something can happen like then I
like schedule things that other people want to do during that time but you have
to like protect your time basically because it's very easy to be like okay
yeah I'm gonna do this because like I'm free but like I kind of treat like my
work hours as like appointments with myself and I find that to be very
helpful especially like I don't know in grad school or academia in general it's
like people are always asking you to do like free work for them like doing in
the going to this meeting like serving on this committee like that's all fine
but like I don't want that to happen during my special hours so those
happen to be like my special hours but like I think it's important to figure
out like what your own hours are like some people are like more night owls and
they work better in the night like that could be their protected time but you
just have to like know yourself and know how you work and how you think and cater
to that so like I'm not saying like oh you have to like wake up at 7 a.m. and
like do all the things like morning person like you know I think you just
have to find like whatever works best for you and like kind of just go with
that you have to respect it and honor it and I think you know to your point about
not having shame when you're at the club and enjoying yourself I think one thing
that I find so interesting is like a lot of people think sometimes that like
being exceptional at your work means not doing things like having fun and going
out and maybe basically falling off the bein path there's like a very straight
edge way of doing work and it's not it doesn't have anything to do with like
substances it's just this idea of what people think successful people look like
and I think that's like a really unfortunate way of just approaching life
and like being exceptional because you're allowing someone to define like
what you should be proud of when really it's the most like innate joys are
self-defined and I think with academia only did an undergrad but I appreciate
how professors and TAs have office hours it's like these are the times that like
I'm going to take calls and as an artist you know I have my podcast hours and I
only do them on Mondays and Fridays and then I have my studio time and times
like where I take sales calls and those are all separate and that kind of helps
me yeah and it's important too because especially when you're like juggling
different responsibilities in different hats like I think it's so
unproductive to be like at your sales job but like worried about your design
job or worried about your podcast like it's important to separate our time out
like that because then you're like okay like I'm at my design job like I only
think about my design stuff here under my podcast like I'm thinking about
podcast stuff here and then once you're out of that time frame like you're you
don't have to like keep mulling over it you know like I think yeah it's like we
gotta move on move forward because like the wheel keeps on turning if I get
stuck it's like well I'm gonna get run over that's how I feel like we're all
like little spokes in the wheel but if you get stuck sometimes you get run over
you're not like moving forward yeah so yeah so I don't know I think yeah like
I think that's why I was like interested in just like talking about yeah like the
creative process I think like there's a lot that we have in common even though
we day-to-day do like very different things but I think like a lot of people
like kind of wouldn't see like how academic research could be creative
especially more science or like STEM fields but I think it's really important
to like bring it back to a place of like art and creativity is though too
because I know in the work you do you're synthesizing quite a bit and as an
artist I synthesize too I'm mood boarding I'm remixing and I think like
you're doing that too from like a factual perspective like topically for
your purposes in academia it's like kind of different lanes but I think process
is so important in the arts otherwise you're just kind of like I don't know
it's like what are you asking me to like really pay attention to like how can I
see you improve it's yeah so that's what I admire process and improvement yeah I
think like one of the like hard lessons I learned early on in grad school was
like there was definitely a time where I was like very focused on like outcomes
like I wanted to win all these like fellowship awards I wanted to like do
all these things and the thing was like getting these like fancy fellowships
that like you know pay for a year of grad school or whatever is that like
just because you get the award doesn't mean that like you're actually gonna
like do the work that it needs to like get it just like finish your dissertation
you know like are so focused on like having these fancy titles but like I
don't know if they're always like that focused on like actually doing the work
because I was definitely me like I was like putting so much work in into like
packaging myself in a certain way for these fellowships when I was like wait
like the point of me getting a PhD is not to win a fellowship the point of my
getting the PhD is to like collect and synthesize knowledge and like
contribute a new aspect to what we already know in our world like that's the
whole point of like any PhD it's about like doing your research just because
you win a fellowship that can help you that can definitely help you do your
research like you you know you're paying for your grad school or whatever but
like oh yeah you're gonna do the work yeah recognition like monetary rewards
they serve different purposes but I think there is like again an innate
sense of gratification from following a process being able to stick to it and
continue and I think like as I get older I'm not super old but I'm like I want to
keep on doing this when I'm like 60 70 80 maybe it's gonna require a different
physical the requirements will physically be different just based upon
how my body is but if I can learn to respect my physicality now then that
that's everything to me I don't want to just be someone who like gets a plumb or
fame for like crashing out because that's what so many people want kind of
and I'm like wait I think that's broken I think that's a broken system attention
isn't always good you know like yeah I'm also like we're the same age and like
obviously like when I like look back on like my life so far like I it might not
seem like this on the outside because yeah like on paper right like we both
like what's your first like obviously like I would say peaked like early but
actually I would say that like I've had like multiple like I have this joke now
that's kind of not a joke it's real where like I'm genuinely trying to peak
like every decade because there were definitely periods where like I was
flopping like every decade of my life like there are periods of like flopping
like yeah I got into Stanford you know after high school but like when actually
I was big flop era like had no direction like truly a terrible student
could not anymore and then like literally like just like kind of got my shit
together just like you know and then I like had another peak where like you
know I got into like a PhD program and then I think a lot of I don't know like
I don't want to throw shade but like there are a lot of people I know
especially growing up in like the competitive Bay Area landscape who I
can't again no shade everyone has like different goals in life but like from my
perspective like I think they like peaked once and a little too early and
like just I don't know just like never and I think this goes back over saying
of like being willing to change and like adapt to your environment like they kind
of were like okay let me do the Stanford thing like let me just like go into tech
and then it's like what you know like it's like boring it gets so boring it's
like they they like applaud themselves for being these intellectuals and big
thinkers and I'm like well then why are you doing the same thing as everyone
else it becomes like this conformity thing I was talking to a friend about
this the other day where I was like you know sometimes like if you're not
careful you get a little bit too close to the Sun and then it's still like you
achieved all these things but still like Jersey Shore up at the top there's a
Jersey Shore at the top you know where people are just like compared like
competing for like the best baby daddy and I don't really that's like not what
I want for my life yeah like my favorite example is like yeah coming up from like
competitive area landscape like there's this thing called like the Intel
Science Fair which is like essentially the Nobel Prize for high schoolers like
if you win it you're like going to MIT and like I knew people who like I had
grown up with who like won the Intel and the thing is that like the reality is
that like usually their parents or someone they know like set them up in a
lab and like basically did the research for them and just thought their name on
it but whatever but they're considered to be like smart people and they end up
going to like the top schools and my issue is that like okay yeah like that's
great obviously these kids are like very smart very hard-working whatever like I
would say like most of the people I know who went through Intel did not end up
getting PhDs and not actually good end up going into research like they just
like did that to like get into Stanford and then stopped you know so I'm like
what is the point of that that is a shame to me because it's like a lot of
like the world-changing stuff happens like after that it's like finish your
thought like keep going I'm just saying it's like I just think like I'm not like
I'm not trying to throw shade at like I'm not saying like judging people for
like I what I think that peeking too early I I just think that like people are
not necessarily like trying to challenge themselves to continue to grow and like
everyone's metrics for like what growth means to them is obviously very
different but like I feel like people kind of I don't know like tend to want
to rest on their laurels like rest on like the one time they did something
well but like I know for a fact that for me like if I just rested on the fact
that like I went to Stanford undergrad I would not have like reach other peaks
later on in life that like I didn't even know were possible for me until I like
started challenging myself to like see what else is out there like I never had
intentions of like going to grad school or like going to like the number one
sociology PhD program that was not in my fucking playbook but like I think and I
think this kind of goes with like going into being in a flop era like I was
definitely flopping and so I think when your back is like up against the wall
you kind of just like I don't know like I felt like I had nothing to lose I was
just like going for it and you know what what's the worst back it's a good place
to be and sometimes like recognize like you're maybe not like failures in this
sense but like what's not working it's like you also went to Stanford as a
computer science person and I think sociology is oftentimes viewed as like
entirely different but I think this is just like the physics and the reality of
life where it's like if you're up like sometimes the only direction is down but
that's not necessarily like a bad thing it's like you you work the other side of
your brain yeah yeah I mean yeah that's just that's just my take on things like
I think I really do want to like peak every decade I like kind of have a plan
to do that like because I'm you know very Capricorn so I do actually have a
concrete plan on how I'm how exactly I'm gonna peak every decade but so I'm
working on it but like I think yeah and then one thing I wanted to say too is
that like it's interesting that we're talking about this because actually like
next week I'm gonna be like interviewing like high schoolers applying to Stanford
this year like undergrad admissions tell me about that cuz like I you know dude
I never had to do an interview for Stanford but I did interviews for other
schools and some of my interviewers were just so mean assholes like I was like
sick okay so I'm not going to Harvard because this white man told me that
basically I'm not a white man I wouldn't thrive
I think okay so what's crazy is that when I was interviewing I remember like
this was an interview for Yale and we ended up like so we like met up at a
coffee shop but he was like oh like do you want to just like walk and talk I
was like yeah for sure I like prefer that you know I hate and we were like
walking through a cemetery and like we were like look like headstones if he was
like yeah you know like none of this really matters at the end of the day and
I was like I love that we all die so I'm just curious about I don't know like
we're essentially can you know like I feel like it was already bad when we
were applying to school but it's just only gotten worse like the anxiety that
like families and like kids have these days because they I think the problem
again going back to like peeking too early like I think the problem is
actually systemic because like we view your entire first 18 years of your life
is like going to college and like it's so important to go to like Ivy League
or Stanford or MIT and like that's the only thing you know you can do so a lot
of people base their entire like you know self-worth on that and then you're
so exhausted by the time you even start at a school like Stanford that like
obviously like people just kind of like stop caring so much you know and stop
working as hard to like you know actually learn and so I totally get that
and so I was like hovering from burnout I think like the first two years of
Stanford well just like trying to figure it out I was like wait I burned myself
out so bad in high school just trying to get here and then now you want me to
like choose a major and think about like what's gonna happen like what the fuck
like I feel like most of my time at Stanford at least undergrad was like
wasted on being burnt out from getting to Stanford like and I think that just
goes with like okay okay you graduate from Stanford and then you go work at
like the consulting job or the investment thinking job but then you're
so burnt out from getting that job that like you're hating it during it so it's
like when does that like end you know so anyway so I just I just want to talk to
high schoolers I my goal for it is just to like get a vibe from them obviously
just like see like what they're like out there and also just to like do what I
can to like I don't know like help ease their anxieties about their futures
because I'm like guys like you're 17 or maybe 18 like it's just yeah and you're
pretty harmless too yeah it's like as long as you don't like kill someone or
like millions of dollars or whatever like just enjoy the ride you know
develop some interests in the process yeah that's it yeah like again like
things just goes back to like process versus outcome like it like you can't
blame people for like being so fixated on like getting a certain outcome but
like you forget the outcome and it still might not be like the experience that
you thought it would be and like you still have to go through the process of
like finishing like graduated from college which at certain points I was
like well I mean I didn't even graduate on time like I literally took six years
to finish my undergrad I mean and luckily you know the the privilege of
going to school like Stanford is that I still got my ass covered because I just
like covered the extra two years by getting a master's so on paper it looks
like you know I got two degrees from six years but the reality was that like I
took six years to get my undergrad degree because I was not finishing in
four years like I just not happening so I think like yeah you know like I think
that's the problem with yeah just like our incentive structure is like just
it's a matter of perspective too because I hear that and I'm like that's
impressive you got your master's and your undergraduate degree in six years
and then meanwhile I think you might say about that like yeah it took me six
years that's like two years longer than me or like not sorry like well yes me
because I did four but I didn't do like a co-term but also I think the other
thing too sometimes is like I remember my parents begging me not to take time
off I finished in four years but I was also sometimes like at what cost to my
mom and then I started like a job at Google like literally two days later and
I only see it in that world for three months because I felt like it was rushed
I was like this is not what I want to do I can't see myself doing this longer you
got another brand name but like what is actual intrinsic value and I didn't
really feel like there was any so yeah exactly yeah so I don't know I think
yeah like I think yeah it's just it's just that I mean like one thing that I
always think about is like I don't know like I think the problems actually worse
for like higher like the kinds of students who like do end up getting into
these like elite schools because then you're like constantly chasing after
like what you think of is successful and like it kind of crowds out like more
creative thought about like you don't have to follow necessarily what's
successful like on paper like what success means is very different for
everyone else like for different people you always have to like actually do a
lot of like self work internal work and actually know like what your strengths
are and like play to that like why like sort of follow these like external
metrics like if it happens that like your actual strengths are in what
investment banking can help you cultivate and like yeah for sure go for
it but like I doubt that that's everyone like you know like yeah like you're
seeing lists like you know like even the way our schools are ranked like the US
news list like and then there's like the Forbes list like you graduate and like I
was in marketing and branding it's like these lists are pay-to-play so you got
to think about that too it's like it does it does kind of start to feel a
little bit fake to a degree if you really care about it and I think like
you're doing something that you're proud of it's like being on the Forbes list I
think as someone who's doing something really innovative and like women's
health care is gonna feel really different than like someone who's just
doing it just because they want recognition and they have like enough
money to pay for it like I don't know they have met both types of people you
know yeah I'm like curious like because I feel like yeah like I'm curious like
what you like when you're like talking to people maybe like someone that you you
know loosely keep in touch with like a server or something like you ever like
me people who you like tell them what you've been up to and like you kind of
like receive judgment like from them because it's not like what's normal
consider all the time I would also get shade from people when I went to Maui
where they would I think they would kind of like bully me a little bit sometimes
like working in like the gym or yoga spaces he's like oh why are you not
like working in tech I'm like if you've ever worked in tech especially like
doing what I do it's not fun it's like a lot of people want to be doing this
actually you know the grass is always greener on the other side but I think
sometimes people do have this like high school mentality where they want it
they're looking for insecurities they want you to feel bad about yourself and
so I think like the most like the biggest power move is not really like
feeling bad about your choices it's like loving them regardless of what people
think because it's hard to be manipulated yeah yeah it's definitely I
think it's funny because like I feel like I think like most of my like friends
or people like you touched from Stanford they like get in they're like yeah like
that's awesome that you're like you know doing grad school and then it's
interesting though because like I feel like when I like ever like reconnect
with you know someone who I haven't talked to for a long time since high
school I think the reaction I get is sometimes like more judgmental because
yeah like I think people tend to view like sociology as like a downgrade from
computer science there's like this really fucked up like glorification of
STEM in our society in general they're like you're considered smart if you do
STEM and if you do anything not stem you're not smart like that's kind of
the truth that's a high grade idiocy to me so I'm like yeah we're really doing
that kind of like petty whatever I actually think some of like I think like
I don't know just being able to think critically that likes a perspective from
like a social scientist would give you it's like a different kind of smartness
like you can't really compare it like it's just like it's like people think
that like I like went off the deep end dude maybe I did but like yeah but also
the other thing too is like I just think that's so not true like as someone who
really knows you and I do wonder like does that kind of bother you like what
other people think if they think you went off the deep end because you like
do so much for like yourself and your community and like people in your life I
think that is so much more important than the perception of people who care
so little about things that really matter yeah I think it used to bother me
more I mean I would definitely be lying if like I didn't care at all about like
how people perceive me because like I do like the thing is like I know what I'm
capable of I know I'm very smart and like I don't want people I hate when
people think I'm dumb I don't think that and so but I think ultimately I'm not
super worried about it because actually like I am definitely trying to play like
the long game where it's like okay right now like you think I'm a nobody
because you are making all this money at your bank or tech job and I'm like a
grad student and you know whatever but like I kind of plan on playing the long
game because like ultimately like I do want to be a professor like I am gonna
be tenured I'm gonna have a lifetime job I might even get pension when I'm older
because if I work at a public university like I just have like different goals in
life and I think like I'm really happy with the choices I made so ultimately
I'm like it's fine like like and I think like it's yeah so it's both like I'm
happy with the choices I made but also I am definitely I do feel like I have
something to prove and like I plan on doing that so that's why I'm okay with it
it's good fuel if anything like sometimes I'll take people's sly little
remarks and just save that for later when I need motivation and that's another
way I'm hardwired unfortunately because you know I would be lying to if I said
that what like older men at my job think doesn't matter to me like that's a lie
like I do care because like I worked really hard to like even make a switch
from something like you know working in the social sciences and like talking
about cities to then like basically being a tradesperson you know yeah and
but I like what I do I like being able to have ideas and then like execute so
satisfying yeah that was like something I made a choice for myself and I felt
lonely in that decision as well but I meet people all the time who like make
switches and I'm proud of them if anything I'm like you're you like
really believe that you could do this and you put in the work to do it that's
so cool yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well I value your thoughts and opinions
so much and I'm happy to have you on the podcast again yay thank you for joining
me today