Hi everyone.
Welcome to the pool party today.
I have my friend Jane, who is going to be anonymous for the
purpose of this episode.
I'm so happy and excited to have Jane here.
So Jane, I would love for you to introduce yourself and say hello to the pool party.
Hi everyone.
Yeah.
I've been friends with Jules for a long time.
This is fun to be chatting to you in this format.
And right now I'm about four years into a doctoral program in clinical psychology and
also really interested in the tech psychology overlap and yeah, all things mental health.
So that's neat.
So how would you describe the tech psychology overlap?
There's a million and one ways that technology and psychology overlap.
You can think of anything from an app like Instagram, which is obviously changing our
mental health in subtle and not subtle ways, changing our mental health, changing the way
we think about ourselves, changing the way we think about our social relationships, et
cetera.
How we, you know, how our social comparison, what our frame of reference is for ourselves.
You can think about something like that, which is not explicitly a mental health app.
All the way to apps designed for therapy.
There are a lot of AI chat bots coming out right now to health technologies.
So apps designed for something like weight loss that are changing our psychological relationship
with our bodies and food in different ways, more in undercurrents in their products.
So it's a huge range of explicit and implicit overlap between the two.
And I'm so excited to have you on the podcast because I think one thing that I've been
talking with my guests about, especially this past month is the impact of technology and
platforms like Instagram and TikTok on artists and creative people's mental health.
Maybe some of the comparison that we do in our work and career and some of the perceptions
of how well we think other people are doing compared to us in our own careers.
And I know you're someone who also has a personal creative art practice on the side or sometimes
more so in your career.
And I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit about that as well.
To the first point about comparison when it comes to social media, yeah, I think there's
a really important conversation to be had there.
I do a lot of psychological research on mindset.
So the way the beliefs we have about something and how that how that impacts our actions
and the way we think about something.
And yeah, there's a lot on social comparison, right?
Where if you're seeing if you're following all these really successful artists, you might
fall into that comparison trap of thinking, oh, they're doing so much better than me.
I never will.
And then not taking action and then just falling into that cycle.
So definitely something that's good to be aware of and kind of extract yourself when
necessary.
But yeah, in terms of my own creative practices, mainly writing is what it is for me.
I do a lot of stream of consciousness writing.
I got turned on to it a few years ago when I heard of Natalie Goldberg during the pandemic.
She is a very famous writing teacher who has a lot of work to do.
She's a very good writer, who has a lot of books on writing.
The best, I think most well-known one is writing down the bones.
And she talks a lot about the intersection of Zen and stream of consciousness writing,
Zen and writing in a beautiful way.
And yeah, I've kind of followed in that that frame.
So timed writing practices where you're writing kind of faster than the internal critic can
come in for a certain length of time.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Writing faster than internal critic.
I think that's something that I've been thinking about lately too, almost as if living my life
in the moment is maybe being a little bit faster than internal critic that loves to
criticize every little thing.
Yeah, I remember you talking about this book when we were in Santa Monica earlier this
summer.
Yeah.
And then you also mentioned there's I think like another author who writes about running,
who like knows that author.
Could you tell us about that a little bit too?
Yes.
Sorry, I'm just looking up the author's name.
Oh, no, go for it.
Oh, it's Katie Arnold.
Yeah.
So over the pandemic, I got really into Natalie Goldberg, like I just mentioned, and her intersection
of Zen and writing.
And Katie Arnold is another author who is actually friends with Natalie Goldberg and
was taught by her.
But she's also a professional ultra runner and has won a lot of big ultra races.
And as a long distance runner myself, who's also a writer and interested in some of these
spiritual overlaps of running and writing.
Yeah, I would definitely recommend Katie Arnold's work as well because she kind of ties all
three of them together in this beautiful way.
Yeah, yeah.
So tell me about some of the runs you've done recently.
And if you can name it off the top of your head, what's like the longest run you've ever
done?
Oh, the longest run I've ever done is a 50k, which is the shortest ultra marathon distance
out there, which is 31 miles.
Wow.
And yeah, I love trail running being out in nature.
Yeah, it's definitely a big part of my mental health practice, my spiritual grounding practice.
I mean, Jules and I lived together for several years.
You got me into running.
Yeah, you got me into running on a daily basis.
And I've been thinking about that a lot more lately, actually, because I think during the
two years we lived together, I'd wake up and like run every day.
Yeah, it was good for my mental health.
And then, well, I think about that a lot these days because I go on more walks.
But there is definitely a high you get from running.
There's a sense of accomplishment, but there's also a lot of focus involved.
And I think about art practice sometimes as like that marathon run.
And I haven't run like too many like crazy long distances.
I did my first half marathon this year.
But it was actually like a really chill one.
It was the one in Maui along the west side.
But there is this one dude too who I saw running and every mile he would pull to the side and
like paint.
Yeah, oh my gosh, like after every mile he'd like paint.
Yeah, and I think he still finished like before I did.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Okay, that's really cool.
But when it comes to I suppose like the routine of running and your schedule, your day to
day, I think one thing that strikes me about you as a person is you're so in the moment
in a way.
And at the same time, like you keep up this high intensity schedule, whether that's with
like school or training.
What do you think that comes down to?
Good question, I mean, definitely glad to hear I seem in the moment.
Of course, I am very human and I'm not always feeling like I'm in the moment.
But yeah, I do think one one thing that always helps me is just deciding what I'm going to
do during a particular hour of the day or time period and like having that peace of
mind that things are accounted for and then knowing during that hour of it, this is what
this is about, I can dive into this.
I think that's definitely, that's definitely at least what helps me with focus.
Even if presence feels like perhaps a different thing and maybe something I'm not quite as
good at, but I can definitely dial into something and focus for an hour if I need to.
Do you ever deal with intrusive thoughts as someone who is studying clinical psychology?
And if you see that come up in your practice, like what's that self observation like?
Yeah, I mean, so I, we all have intrusive thoughts is one of the first pieces of psychoeducational
tell a client when they come in and say, say they do like one of the classic things or
examples we use is we've all had a thought when we're driving or, you know, when we're
on the roof of a building or something of, oh, what if I just like ran the car into something
or what if I just jumped, you know, I mean, it's really natural and normal to have intrusive
thoughts like that and they don't, they don't indicate a problem.
Some people's brains are just a little bit stickier to intrusive thoughts and where we
start having an issue is actually if we just start getting worried about the intrusive
thought and start taking it as something that means something about us rather than just,
you know, signal firing in our brain.
Yeah, that's actually really refreshing to hear because I've never heard someone say
that that like intrusive thoughts are actually really normal.
And I think maybe that's kind of relieving for some people to hear.
You know, OCD intrusive thoughts, it's one of my favorite things someone will show up
with actually in therapy because it is so an hour of psychoeducation about this is how
intrusive thoughts work.
This is, you know, what you need to know.
This is why they happen.
That like just learning about it will improve the intrusive thoughts so much.
Sometimes people come in the next week and say, cool, I'm good to go.
I've been struggling with this for a year, but that hour was all I needed.
Sometimes of course, it's a lot more complex with that, especially with, you know, OCD
and more acute cases like that.
But have you been having intrusive thoughts lately?
Not as much lately, but you know, one thing that I've noticed is I almost have to busy
myself from intrusive thoughts.
I have observed like my patterns of work and this intensity that I build.
And I almost feel like sometimes I have all this energy that I need to direct into like
creativity or sports, like a schedule that pulls me out of the house.
Because if I allow myself to like stay in my room all day and like work on one thing,
I can almost overdo it.
Yeah, just like anything.
But I think especially earlier this year too, where I just like had no idea what was going
on in my life.
Like there's this one moment I was in Mexico City and I was on a hot air balloon and I
was like, oh, this is sick.
This is awesome.
But also like, I hate my life right now.
I was like, I should be enjoying this, but like, this sucks.
Yeah, like going through a breakup, you know, like, just being a little bit too self aware.
I don't know if you're like following this whole like pop culture phenomenon of like
Chappell Rhone recently.
I definitely know her music, but I don't know much more.
Yeah, let me give you a little bit of a rundown.
So she became like hella famous, like just in the short span of a few months.
And then recently she's been canceling dates on her tour because she's like, I can't,
like I feel like I just can't show up.
But whenever she does show up, she'll like overpack the arena.
Like everyone's like there, they're ready.
She just reached like this level of stardom.
But she's dealing with like, I guess like this depression and inability to focus.
And honestly, like I'm not Chappell Rhone, but I see myself in that a lot of times, where
I think like sometimes as a high performing individual or someone who like suddenly gets
like the spotlight on me.
I'm sure like maybe some other creatives can relate to this.
And also like being a woman, there are parts of me where I'm like, holy crap, like, should
I be humble?
Like, is this enough to for me to handle?
Like what does this mean for me?
Like how do I like keep on performing at this level?
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think it can be pretty excess done, fusing loud to be going through life at baseline,
not alone facing a big translation like that and or break up or whatever it might be.
And yeah, I think it's a fine balance of how to respond to those questions as they come
up.
And yeah, life, life does not stop.
It's always relentless and throwing us new existential conundrums.
So yeah, it's tough.
I know I don't mean to make this like a therapy session for me, but I think sometimes it's
like, yeah, I'm like, okay, fine.
I love it.
Yeah, actually, I want to hear more about what it means to like, be a therapist for
you these days.
Like, would you call yourself one because you're definitely seeing clients and patients
and I remember like being in the other room from you and you're like, you got a packed
schedule.
Sometimes it feels like 7am to 5pm, like back to back clients.
Yeah, definitely.
I would say I both am a therapist and becoming one right now because I'm in clinical training.
But as part of clinical training, we do, you know, we are clinicians, half time, supervised
clinicians, you know, getting our training, but we see tons of clients, one on one.
And yeah, to become a therapist, you have to be a therapist for quite a few years.
So that is that's where I'm at right now.
And yeah, I mean, it can definitely be pretty, pretty packed days.
I have been really enjoying it.
I think I love and perhaps folks in the artistic world can agree.
I mean, I have just loved doing work that I feel is meaningful, even, you know, maybe
some days I'll see five clients and two of the sessions will feel good.
And maybe a few moments from those will feel really good.
And I'll know that I that day sat with someone and helped them, even if, you know, it's not
a black and white change or some huge breakthrough.
It just has felt really wonderful to feel like I'm doing meaningful work.
And yeah, for context, too, before grad school, I was doing software engineering, which, you
know, can be meaningful in its own way, but definitely has a different flavor of meaningfulness
and not as much human to human connection.
So that's been therapist life in a sense for me.
Yeah.
Being a software engineer, especially like post grad from Stanford, and you studied symbolic
systems undergraduate.
Yeah.
In some ways, that's like kind of a traditional path, but also like, I love how you chose
your own interests after school and made it your own.
Are there like any alternative therapies or like new research like on your radar?
Oh, good question.
I mean, one one therapy I'm loving these days is IFS, internal family systems.
I don't know if you worked with it at all.
Yeah, actually, I've been seeing a therapist not recently, but I saw her for like maybe
six months.
Yeah.
She was super helpful, actually.
Yeah, I think it's a pretty amazing therapy.
I think as you're thinking about therapies and experiencing it, one thing I have noticed,
which is common knowledge in some ways is the more experiential your therapy session
can be where you are having a corrective attachment experience with your therapist or you are
experiencing your emotions in a new way, like you're relating to them in a new way in session.
Having that corrective experiential note is where a lot of the magic happens in therapy.
And I think IFS is really great at going straight to the experience of the emotion and working
with it in real time.
Whereas some of the other therapies like CBT to me is a little bit heady where it's just
kind of.
I feel like I'm going to make it sometimes like in cognitive behavioral therapy.
Whereas like internal family systems for me kind of felt like the movie Inside Out, like
I was able to name all the little parts of me, what their goals were, and then ultimately
realize like all these parts are me, especially when I'm like functioning.
And then there is like a dysfunctional side as well that is like a pattern that can be
pinpointed.
And I'm someone who is like really pattern recognition oriented.
So if I can recognize it and then kind of undo a pattern, that's super helpful to me.
So on the note of therapies, I'm curious, I know that you do a bit of your own therapy
as well, and has what you've studied changed the way that you've sought out therapy for
yourself?
Also, I mean, you're talking to so many patients.
So does that impact like how often you do your own therapy just to like kind of come
down from their experiences?
Oh, so interesting.
Yeah, let's see, it's definitely changed a little bit the way I interface with therapy,
just knowing what's going on under the hood.
Yeah, like I definitely brought up with my own therapist recently, somewhat recently,
something about my relationship with him, because in school, I've learned and in my
training today, I've learned so much about how the relationship with the therapist is
a lot of also where the magic happens, you know, that relational corrective experience
I was just talking about.
So something like that I wouldn't have I wouldn't have ever done before as a as a patient.
And then in terms of frequency, I starting grad school thought I would be talking about
processing some of my own clinical experience a lot in therapy, that actually hasn't happened
much.
Maybe a handful of times have I said, Oh, this has been emotionally taxing or, you know,
how am I supposed to deal with this part of things or something or Oh, I've noticed this
about the way I relate to my own clients, etc.
But no, no huge change.
And in fact, I think I've almost gone to a lesser frequency.
And part of that is it's a little bit weird to I'm in therapy world so much of my day
and then to switch in, you know, I'm still in it with my own therapist.
It's just the roles are reversed.
And you know, it's just funny to switch from your own.
There's been one or two times it's been back to back where I've gone from being a therapist
to being a patient in like 10 minutes.
And it's kind of funny.
Yeah.
Yeah, maybe sometimes it just feels like lots of meetings.
I don't know.
Yeah, I think zoom is zoom is one thing I've learned.
So I've tried and do as much clinical work in person.
But six hours of zoom, even if it's, you know, really wonderful person to person therapy
is still six hours of zoom.
So beware, beware of zoom.
So one thing that's not zoom, tell me, I know that you went to Burning Man this year.
How was it?
Tell me a little bit about the 2024 experience.
Oh my gosh, it was awesome.
Second time there.
So the novelty of the first burn wasn't as much with me, but just still as magical and
amazing and really got to, you know, choose your own adventure, just like you're meant
to with the burn.
And yeah, what can I say?
I mean, were there as many people this year?
I don't know why for some reason I had a feeling it was like a little bit, you know, 30%.
No, I think it was less.
There was no traffic getting in or out.
Where usually it's crazy.
And yeah, I think it was a little bit more chill burn.
I mean, you still felt like you were in a busy city and everything.
But I think, yeah, things were a little less crowded on the whole, which is great.
Have you thought about going?
What's your?
I have thought about going to Burning Man.
I'm always like a little bit afraid because I want to be self-sufficient.
I want to do it the right way.
But then there's also this part of me that like, I think panics around the idea of being
self-sufficient.
So I want to go with like a person who's willing to integrate me with a camp.
I want to go during a year where I don't feel like I have to work too much.
Like this year, I've been working kind of a lot.
I also feel like I had some friends that went from Maui this year just for fun because they're
like, hey, why not?
And I think they had a good time.
Maybe it was like a great first year for them.
So I still want to go.
Yeah.
I think it's a great, I mean, I always talk about Burning Man as it's a city.
It's just like Manhattan.
You can go and have a really different week depending on who you are and what you're looking
for.
You could spend the whole week partying.
You could spend the whole week.
My boyfriend went with me.
It was his first burn and he had kind of a wellness burn and just went to spas and the
farmer's market.
I could totally see that.
And yoga like all day and runs like group runs at the burn.
So you really can do it in any type of way.
And I think it's a great city to put on your bucket list of cities in the world that you
want to go to.
I mean, it's kind of the same, same, same, but different.
Okay.
So speaking of traveling in cities, didn't you also go to Japan earlier this year?
Or was that a laugh?
I can't remember.
I did.
Right at the beginning of the year, like January 5th, I went to Japan to visit my brother
who was living in Japan for the last year or two.
Yeah.
But I highly recommend Japan.
Very different than Black Rock City.
Oh, absolutely.
But yeah, it was so wonderful and I felt really safe traveling there.
You've traveled there alone, right?
And it was great.
Yeah, I did.
I traveled there alone.
I did a run around Imperial Palace.
It was nice.
It was really calm.
This is like pre-COVID, so it's 2018.
I liked going to the onsens.
Did you do the bathhouses at all?
Yes, we did.
We went up into the mountains where there's lots of onsens in particular.
It was winter, so it was very cold.
It was wonderful.
I love traveling.
Such an amazing culture.
Yeah.
So yeah, I love asking you about travel because I feel like I see you travel a bunch and then
I don't get to catch up with you.
I know.
I can be asking you about the new culture you're exposed to over there.
I'm so curious.
Yes.
You should ask me questions because I will tell you.
So I'm in Outer Boise, Idaho, and it's such a culture shock and I know nothing, but I'm
learning everything at the same time.
The area that I'm in is a lot of farmland.
There are horses.
Then I go into the city for work a lot, just three days a week at a design studio.
It's such a cute up and coming city.
There's lots of wine bars.
This past weekend, actually, I went to this Plain Art Festival.
They have one going on all week.
There are these older ladies, 60 plus, just painting the landscape and there's up and
coming wine country out in the north.
Actually, yesterday I went and I brought my dog Charlie with me.
He's a pug beagle.
I'm walking around.
It was kind of hot and there isn't too many people painting.
I was like, okay.
Charlie took a dump and then I picked it up and I was like, okay, we're going to leave.
We're going to leave now.
Then as I'm walking away, someone is like, is that a puggle?
I turned around and then there's this man there.
He starts petting up my dog and we're chatting.
I guess I have a date now tomorrow with this guy.
He was there to paint for this festival.
Conveniently, he had a name tag so I Googled him and all of that.
I was like, oh, he has a very interesting background actually, architecture, landscape
painting.
We're going to go to a wine bar tomorrow.
Very casual.
What a great meat cute.
Any meat cute that involves a dog is a good one.
Exactly.
In my opinion.
I think in my head, I always thought that I needed to live in a city like New York or
San Francisco to have a meat cute like that, but I'm having tons of meat cutes in Boise,
Idaho.
I think it's because there's so many people like me who are like, oh god, I wish I could
afford to live outside of Boise right now, but then all of us are in Boise and we're
like, oh wait, you're here too.
That's kind of fun.
I think it's braced that.
Absolutely braced that.
I feel like-
Oh yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, go for it.
I was going to say it just feels like rabid college vibes sometimes, but I love it.
Incredible.
I think that's a good place to be, honestly.
And the rent is really cheap too, so I'm not paying rent at the moment, but you can
get a really nice luxury apartment, has a dog washing center, sauna, $1400.
One bedroom.
What is a dog washing center?
It's just like, I don't know if you've ever seen buildings that have amenities for
pets.
No, that's incredible.
Yeah, so it's one of those.
That's incredible.
Wait, so one bedroom for $1400, that's unreal.
And then you could get a regular bedroom, I think, for maybe $700.
Someone I worked with was telling me that when she was in college, she paid $400 for
an entire three bedroom house, which is insane.
I went to the housing market to crash, so it's like that again.
I mean, that is insane.
Wow.
Yeah, but it's cute.
There are some parts of North Boise that kind of remind me of Palo Alto, the really
cute parts, and then you just kind of go down a few blocks and it's like a city.
As the fall then, is it getting cold?
Are you having good leats yet?
It's very temperamental right now.
Yeah, it gets really cold sometimes in the morning, and then other times it'll randomly
be like 80 degrees by 1pm.
So a few years ago, I was in Ketchum, Idaho for this month, like September, October.
You almost can't remember, but then there were really bad fires, so that week I didn't
go or something.
But yeah, the fall foliage was amazing.
You know what I hear lately?
So there's fires going on a little bit, I guess, maybe north of here, but it's like
sage brush, so we're just getting saged constantly.
Oh wow.
Yeah.
Very clear, energetic portal then.
I guess so, yeah, and some people are kind of allergic to sage.
And then actually when I think of indigenous practices and clothes practices, people would
say that like, sieging is a closed practice or used to be.
There's like some debate on that in the spiritual cultural community, which I don't feel like
I know enough about.
But I just thought it was kind of like funny because I actually love the idea of just like
a random like sage fire, like we're just clearing it out.
Yeah, I love that too.
The clearing will get blown around the country.
We need that.
Absolutely.
We need a massive sage fire post-election to be lit in the middle of the country and
blow everywhere.
I know.
So that's the other thing too.
It is very much kind of like a red state.
But then at the same time, there's like lots of Gen Z people of color.
And I'm like, okay, I kind of feel like this is a generational thing.
Yeah.
Here's hoping.
That it's generational.
I don't think so.
I mean, there's a million and one things I'm interested in and can talk about with psychology,
but I feel like I gave the audience a good Samourga's board too.
You did.
I think I like to hear on unless there's anything else that's interesting to you, which you
want to touch on.
I actually do want to ask you, as I think more about this idea of balance and as this
narrative is shifting around being a girl boss, what are your thoughts about being a
woman and pursuing professional work?
Okay.
Wait.
Can you give me the two sentence update on what the narrative shift is with being a girl
boss?
Just because you're up on this a little more than I am.
I think for me, yeah, this is, I'm noticing this like cultural shift of people who are
like, wait, wanting to be a girl boss is so like Sophia Amoruso early 2000s.
Just for like older millennials who are able to like lean in and like get their spot at
Facebook.
We're, we're like Gen Z now.
This like younger Gen Z crowd is kind of like, that doesn't exist for us anymore.
And actually we're just kind of like being bullied to fall into like work culture that
we don't love or necessarily agree with.
And there's a massive need for like labor reform that is actually maybe specific towards
like our biology.
Like some women like need a little bit more rest because our hormonal cycle is different.
Like the work week is built around like men's bodies at times or like maybe the pressure
to do it all is actually just like conditioning that doesn't fit in.
So I think it's super personal, like depending on who you are.
And then also me, I think like maybe sometimes I identify too much of being a hard worker
because that's like a social, cultural conditioning thing.
Whereas these days I'm like, I'm actually okay not being defined as a hard worker, but
I have like value inherently.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
So many thoughts.
So much to say on this.
I mean, yeah, I think actually right now I'm in a pretty, I'm in a pretty, I'm in a pretty
right now I'm in a pretty big state of confusion where on one side of things I've been receiving
really second wave feminist arguments my entire life, especially, especially as a young girl.
I went to an all girls school and in the early 2000s, it was still kind of a second wave
feminist narrative of you can do anything, you know, your career, like women for the
world go to the stars with your career, et cetera.
Really emphasizing that and don't, don't let men get in your way.
Don't let anything like that get in your way.
And then, sorry, I think I have a lot of that fine, like hard, hardwired into me at the
same time.
Now I'm confronting life in a more real way and realizing things like, yeah, well actually
a certain amount of hours, you know, maybe my, my body and spiritual core work better
with a 30 hour work week than a 41 and maybe I want the balance to hit a little bit differently.
And then maybe there are some things that I want to weave into my life.
Like partnership that don't work 100% with the and partnership and caretaking and all
the above that don't work perfectly with girl boss like working woman narrative.
Yeah, like some of that can be kind of isolating.
And I'm not gonna lie.
Sometimes I'm like, I'm not, I'm okay, like actually getting distracted by like,
someone who's like cute and nice and like add some spice.
Completely so I think it's, I think it can breed a lot of confusion.
And, and yeah, I mean, I have a lot of friends right now too, who are trying to unshackle
from this narrative of hard work that you were kind of alluding to, to, you know, I've
been taught, I've been trained my whole life by the society to shackle my self worth to
how hard I work.
But now I'm kind of discovering that that's not the be all end all of who I want to be.
That's not what I personally value.
It's just being a workhorse.
So how can I, how can I live in this world that still does have those values and still
be true to myself?
Yeah, it's really hard problem to solve.
Yeah.
And I think in that equation too, there's, I think maybe some talks about partnership
and like how partners can show up to like help ease that burden.
Yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
Yeah, there's so much there, honestly.
I mean, I think we're all figuring that stuff out in a sense, how to balance all these things.
Yeah, that is kind of the beauty of like being in your late 20s, early 30s.
It's like, well, I guess this is life.
This is like figuring it out and like being true to yourself still.
Saturn return tings.
Yeah, my Saturn return is like, I think it's going to give me some gifts soon.
The first he was giving me a few babies.
Yes, you've had a big one.
Yours was like right on time.
Yeah.
I actually told my coworkers about this the other day.
Have you seen these?
Sony Angel BBs?
No, my gosh.
What are those?
So this is a Sony Angel BB, but this is like a toy for adult women that was like invented
by an adult woman in, I don't know, some Asian country.
So basically the idea is like, you know, you maybe you don't want to have kids, but you
love like cute, adorable things.
And like maybe someday you'll have a kid.
But right now, like this is a little baby you take with you everywhere.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Love it.
Okay.
Amazing.
Well, I know we only have a couple minutes left.
So thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today, Jane.
Absolutely it was my pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, of course.
Okay.
Thank you.