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to another edition of Amusement Warehouse podcast
today from California. Got mr. Harry Mason owner
of brass ring amusements Empire basically now
with two shows under its umbrella and Harry's
got a quite a varied background Came from I used
to know him a long time ago and he's on the East
Coast a little while and now he's a Carnival
giant there in California Harry welcome. Good
morning. Good morning How are things in California
sunny? I hope We're getting sunny. It's been
a little bit a little chilly and wet But I think
we're gonna be in the 80s by the weekend looking
forward to it What part of California you in
your north? Northern California our our office
is based in Fair Oaks, which is the Sacramento
region and our maintenance facility is up in
Oroville Which is about 90 miles north of there
and we hover we hover in Northern, California
a little bit of central, California We don't
go to LA or anything like that down there No,
you don't want to go where it's warm. It's it's
just it's a traffic. It's a lot logistically.
There's shows that serve that area down there.
No point in going down there and kicking somebody's
shovel. You're like the unknown California people
don't talk about a lot or don't from the East
Coast don't know about it. You know, in my opinion,
having growing up growing up in the Bay Area,
this is the real California. Like, I mean, it's
not what's on TV, but it's it's different. It's
not people like people who think about Florida
they think about sunshine in palm trees and beaches
right and very little of it is beaches it's mostly
you know like up here it's farmland it's cows
it's yeah orchards yeah California's pretty amazing
state when you look at the whole place absolutely
it's awesome it's awesome honestly so tell us
uh you know about your background you're a show
owner now you came from a concession background
to a certain extent but uh how'd you get in the
industry what what uh What brought you to this
wonderful business? so we'll go way back shall
we say I had a somewhat troubled youth and In
schools I was kind of a theater kid believe it
or not nerd and We were doing a production of
Lil Abner and I think this was 1975 Around 1975
and we didn't have any money for stage lighting.
So I had the idea that we'd have a carnival To
raise the money for stage lighting so it would
hit my costume. Right? I'm not even kidding and
We booked butler amusements and they came in
and did the event for us and then probably maybe
76 that's about the year I got in the business
and I Immediately loved the carnival business.
And so, you know packed a bag ran away from home
joined a carnival That's pretty cool. You know,
I kind of got it in a similar way, not in the
exact same way, but when I was working, my first
job out of college was doing fundraising for
the Leukemia Society. And there was like a carnival
across the street. Well, you know who it was
because you work for them. And, you know, I remember
my church used to raise some money just kind
of like you were talking about. And actually
in college too, I had said, oh we should have
a carnival to raise money but I couldn't figure
out how to like find a carnival you know back
then it was crazy but you know I wound up Amusance
of America was across the street actually at
the at the Coliseum and I ran across the street
and talked to them and booked a date with them
but that's funny because that's almost identical
to I didn't run away right away but I did actually
go to work with him not long afters. I guess
it's very, very similar. I didn't realize that
about you. That's pretty cool. Yeah. And I worked
started in the ride department and I worked for,
uh, I worked for Butler Musings for a little
bit. Um, every Monday morning we'd end up back
at the winter quarters and he'd call my mom and
she'd come get me. And that's when Bush Butler
was in charge. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh wow. And,
uh, and so I decided, and then I went over to
Foley and Burke for a summer because, uh, they
didn't know my mom, so they wouldn't call her
to come get me. And that was kind of at the end
of Foley and Burke, right? They were kind of...
It was, it was 77, because I joined Amusements
of America in 78, and I was there till 1990,
and I decided to move back to California. Wow.
How did you think to go to Amusements of America?
You were a game concessionaire by then? No, I
was still a ride guy. I didn't get into the games
until the probably early 80s. So I had a handful
of years. That's my big flex. I was, I was babes
tilt foreman for a, for a summer. Oh, you went
to work for babe. Oh, that's cool. I, you know,
cause I, I know all the brothers, but I mean,
when I went to work for them, babe was, you know,
he had, uh, uh, what is it? Parkinson's, right?
He had something. So he's kind of, you know,
he wasn't really active, but everybody had talked
to that was around them. Said he was a great
guy to work with and for and and it just really
ran a tight unit Was it's kind of like the sound
of a voter brother was you never hear a whole
lot about I mean doesn't make a lot for himself
I Really enjoyed my time at Amusements of America
like I made friends that I'm still friends with
I had a good time It was um, well, I was in my
20s. It was an interesting It was an interesting
experience for sure lots of fun like my god,
but I had a good time there And then, um... Did
you play Flemington? Yeah, I've got Flemington
stories that I can't tell on the podcast. Oh,
yeah, I played Flemington. I'm all cool, right?
What's the guy's name, I think? Yeah, that's
it. On the racetrack, it was a private fair,
as far as I know. Yeah, it was. Him and his son
ran it for a while. Yeah, I mean, all those big
fairs. Back in Middletown, when Middletown was
a big fair. You know who runs Middletown now?
What did a couple of brothers, oh my gosh. You're
talking about the girders on the grounds. Right,
right. The manager's talking to you. You run,
you run Middletown? I have the rest, I don't
know, like eight years, nine years. No kidding,
no kidding. Is it still big like it used to be?
It's big, but it's not that big. I mean, because
when like the Maxwell's were there and they used
to have that guy, Glenn Donnelly. used to bring
in like really big name concerts and stuff with
he ran what was called dirt which is the race
car thing and you know he brought in Van Halen
and Boyz II Men and Metallica and uh huge you
know you can't do that anymore i mean people
yell us bring in Metallica like okay give me
like you know five million dollars and i'll see
what i could do that's crazy runner i could i
could go down the list through the some of the
I saw Def Leppard there for the first time. I
think I saw a foreigner there for the first time
and Willie Nelson. Like it's a quite a constant
expense. That's a great fair. The demographics
have changed a lot. Like if you think back to
as the boomers were kind of, kind of still young
and they were coming in and Gen X was pretty
good. Was it the demographics, even in the industry
now, like we're, we're marketing to Gen Z now,
right? Cause that's the younger group. They're
like a third of the size of the boomers. You
just thought you're gonna have those big, the
drive in up there in Middletown loaded full of
school buses with the kids from camp. That's
not a thing anymore. We don't have people like
that like we used to. We actually get, we do
the Orthodox Jewish camps and they do, they bring
a big group. You know, they really bring a big
group. They're a little difficult because they
do the boys separate, the girls separate. And
it's, it's a challenge, but we do have a pretty
big group because you remember Phil used to.
He used to like work the gate with the camps
and stuff like that. Absolutely down there putting
the wristbands on. Absolutely. That was like
his favorite job of the year. He'd run over to
the gate and he'd like personally work the gate.
When the people came in it was crazy. He was
a fun guy, interesting character. I remember
one time we were playing, oh my god, Malone.
And he was out slinging fried dough in the grandstand
when they were doing Betsy Bingo. Howard Minealy
ran Malone. Pardon me? Howard Minealy ran Malone.
Okay. All those guys up there, I remember about
all like they played Plattsburgh and Malone.
Every one of them. Boston Spa. Boston Spa, but
the Northern Northern Northern ones in New York,
every one of those guys worked in a prison. Did
you ever notice that? I had no idea. All those
guys worked in prisons. They were all prison
like, I guess they weren't guards, but they were
they're like managers. Every one of them was
so strange to me because I would always talk
to Bill LePage in Plattsburgh and Howard Menelian.
I can't remember the guy from Gov 'nor, Bob Richie.
I don't know why I remember these names. Crazy.
I can't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday,
but I remember these names. But all those guys
worked in prisons. I guess it's a big industry
up in northern New York. But that was a lot.
Right. those guys were incredible but yeah Middletown
they used to also have those tents you know those
ethnic tents like they'd have an Italian tent
and a Greek tent and they would have all those
different things and that was big and that's
hard to do but the Maxwell's still uh Bob's son
Robbie runs the food there still. Still doing
the walk away Sundays? I'm sorry? They still
doing the walk away Sundays yeah. Bigger thing
as it used to be in the foot long hot dogs and
the right, right? The dough and everything they
have. Yeah, I mean, it's still still a decent
fair, but it's not like, you know, it's really
it did smooth a lot of it out, though, because
you know how hilly it used to be. Right. Oh,
really flatten it out. A lot of places. I mean,
if you're a guy and you just walk up, you say,
oh, my God, this place is full of hills. But
if you remember from when you were there back
in the day, it's it looks like it's flat, even
though it's not even close to flat. But I remember
going up one winter with uh, I don't know if
you remember bob galoski Yeah, he was beige lock
man. Yeah, and we went up there one winter and
uh did a bunch of excavating Or he directed a
bunch of excavating on what that roadway used
to be called power alley So we could get some
of those big rides in there to sit flat We just
opened that back up. We didn't use that for years
power alley really the entrance over on the gate
to the left of the gate eight I guess it is or
gate nine and uh and we just last year we we
have the entrance right down power alley so that's
get that's used again and going down the road
there so it's it's pretty cool i found a youtube
video that it looked like somebody shot um i
guess i guess it was video even though from 78
maybe or 77 from the orange county fair in middletown
and i recognized a lot of people and i'm like
holy shit that was that was it was crazy It was
always a favorite fair when people played it.
I mean, people just loved it, you know, from
the industry that played it. Then you had the
31st lap and everybody hang out. Absolutely.
You go down there and get breakfast in the morning.
Like that was, you know, that's in the industry
here. Like, good luck. There's no, we don't even
have cook houses out here anymore. You know,
that's how much the industry has changed. And
I remember going down there, sitting, having
breakfast, cutting up jackpots, you know. Yeah.
It's late at night too. I mean, it was, it was
really a big hangout, but not so much anymore
because most of the guys you know try to rain
in the help and then all i'm getting you know
drunk till whatever hour and you have all the
the foreign labor and those guys don't really
uh act up too much so it's it's not quite as
many characters as it used to be but that's that's
correct the uh the after hours shenanigans are
certainly less dynamic shall we say than they
were maybe 20 years ago and middle time i mean
i grew up in new jersey But we had a house up
in Greenwood Lake, New York. My grandparents
lived there, which is in Orange County. And like
my aunt, I used to go there and, you know, we
want to go to Orange County. And she'd say, don't
go there. It's a bunch of drugs running around
the Midway. And it kind of was because they served
beer everywhere. Right. Right. Right. Right.
It was a lot of fun. And I remember like some
of the stuff, the first time the Meadowlands
Fair ever happened. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember
going there. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, the first
year went in there, it was like, it was a combination
of different shows. Why do I want to see Johnny
United? Yep. And then and then we sent stuff
over there. And it was so big, we ran out of
food. Like, who would have thought? And then
then it got it was big for a long time. I assume
it's still big. Honestly, I went and visited.
Here's a story. I'm not going to tell it. Come
on, you didn't tell the good ones from before.
I was disappointed. Back in 17, I think it was,
my wife at the time and a friend of mine and
his wife, we went to New York for the 4th of
July. We wanted to go watch the fireworks. And
I said, oh, we got to go over to Meadowlands
Fair, because I was all talking it up. And we
went over there and it just wasn't the same.
It was disappointing. They didn't have a lot
of people. Maybe that was the day we went. But
it just... It just didn't have the same vibe.
No, it's not like it was, and not to knock the
outdoors, but when Marty Guerin had it, he was
always doing something a little crazy, you know,
like he had the Jimmy Rivers diving mules. Yeah,
he had diving mules. He had like the... It wasn't
a strip show, but like a men's show for women
late at night or some crazy thing. You had dynasty.
You had all kinds of stuff. You would always
do something crazy. You always do something big.
So that really always kept it fresh, but it kind
of made it almost like a pay one price now. Yeah,
that's what I gathered. It was just to have a
different vibe to it. I mean, it was OK, but
it just didn't seem as big equipment -wise. It
should be like the biggest fair on the East Coast.
I mean, it should be. where it's located and
everything else. 20 million people in that market.
Yeah, it's huge. And you can see it from, I mean,
you could literally, if I had an apartment in
Manhattan, I can see the Meadowlands Fair from
across the river. It's pretty cool. And I guess
you don't know it because it takes a while to
get the news out to California, but they're not
gonna have the fair at least the next two years
and maybe longer because of the soccer games
are coming again. what happened to the World
Cup in 1994. I think this is a little more extensive,
so there's no fair for the next couple of years.
That's disappointing, and you've been around
a minute. That's hard on an event. It's hard
to get him to come back. I think so, too. You
kind of break your rhythm. I wonder what's going
to happen down the road if it is going to come
back. I mean, I hope it does. It was a great
event, and it was a cool event. And it puts a
big hole, because it's an independent fair now.
And when I say independent, it's not really,
really independent, but Straits, it's a big stop
for them. And Amusements of America, it's a big
stop for them. Three weeks in the middle of summer,
and there's not a whole lot of events out this
way at that time of year that are as big, you
know, so. It's the same here. July is tough.
It is a tough month out here, too. I mean, it's
a tough month. July 4th is always a weird date
because you either have a great spot or you got
nothing. It's like the desert, you know. That's
correct. It's the same here. Oh my gosh, before
Metallands, we used to play, where was that?
Ironbound Square in Newark. Oh yeah, yeah. Right
there at Penn Station. That was a crazy event
to play. Like crazy. I forget. Mostly in New
Jersey. Most of the time. No, we played. No,
we played from, you know, Miami all the way up
to upstate. We had a handful of spots in New.
I could probably name if I thought about it like
three or four events in New Jersey. And then,
you know, that was it. Like Patterson. One time.
And Passaic. And a couple of churches south,
like in Colonial. Does that sound right? It's
been 30 some years. There was a church. Yeah.
And we just play some James way down in Vineland.
Those are probably gone. And well, the Great
Flemington Fair, you know, Morris used to play
total. Oh, you know what? I used to go over there
with with Bob's food joint and that wasn't it
wasn't a shopping center, wasn't it? Yeah, it
was like I was right on for what's the name of
that road? I can't even think. 208 was not 208
or is it? That sounds familiar. Honestly, I had
a stroke about two years ago, so my memory's
just like a little like... That sounds about
right. I'm fine, it's just my memory's a little
cloudy. And maybe that's, you know, maybe that's
for the best. All our memories are cloudy. I
know mine are. Let's try to remember some things.
Yeah. But yeah, I haven't had a lot of good times
over there. And then I decided I wanted to come
home. So I came out here. And we did. What was
the intent when you went out there? Sam Johnson
found you or were you? No, I mean, when we left
Amusements of America, I was working for for
Bob and Patty Goloski. OK, I ran your game and
food operation and we went to Murphy Brothers.
and I started framing my own joints out and I
did about 18 months there. And you left broke.
Oh, it is it is embarrassing. By the time I got
to California, I couldn't charge a friggin dollar
on my Discover card to rent a Blockbuster video.
That's a comedy. So many people went out with
Murphy, especially concessionaires, and then
they were broke at the end. You know what? I'm
sure a lot of people made a lot of money there,
too. But I had the biggest day I've ever had
in the business. in Milwaukee, the first Saturday
in Milwaukee, the biggest day. And this is like
1990 money. Like with, I don't know, six games
and a food, a grab joint. I think I had like
$100 ,000 a day. I'd never seen money like that.
Geez. And then we won. You play the route. You
give a little back the next week, a little back,
a little. By the time you get to the end of the
season, you're like WTF. I would I do wrong?
So then you go back out there the second season
and I got to about June. I'm like, I get it.
I'm out. I left. So that's a problem with those
big routes that where you have just those big
anchors and everything else is tough. You know,
it's like it's like babe was more of a steady
route, right? You get a little bit of money every
single week. And that's correct. But some of
those big shows, sometimes they would. you know
they played the whole route around three or four
spots and the rest was just you know hanging
on by your by the your nails absolutely and the
cost and my god every time you got behind the
wheel it was 700 miles that's true there's no
way there's no way you could play a route like
that today i don't know how you would afford
you could afford it um especially for me out
here we'll look around our diesels like you know
five bucks five and a quarter It's very, very
expensive to move and we have, I don't know,
50 rides. That's a lot of loads every week to
coordinate. So it's anyway, so. California and
what was the, what was your plan to go to California?
Do you already have? A contact, did you have
a proposition or? No, I ended up, I know it's
kind of weird. I ended up with a job. I was trying
to put together a proposition and somebody introduced
me to Sam and I knew Sam. It was a small show
back then. I think it was 18 rides. Did he have
the park then too or not yet? He had a couple
of parks. So this was just kind of like one of
the, one of the operations he had and a good
businessman. He's a good guy. He was supposed
to be on it actually two weeks ago, but he had
a He had like a doctor's appointment conflict
at the last minute. So he couldn't, but uh, he's
a great guy. He's like, oh, he's a great guy.
Just very honorable man. Always, always kept
his word. Like just very honorable guy, a good,
a good mentor for sure. Yeah. He was always very
nice to me when I was younger or like, uh, I
was helping out doing something with the O A
B A and he'd always, you know, seek me out and
talk to me and, you know, give me a little advice
and talk about some things. And they, I always
found him really, really nice guy. We were introduced
and we were trying to put a deal together and
we couldn't we couldn't put the deal together
but I pestered the hell out of him because I
wanted to come back home and he and he said why
don't you just come run my office for me and
I'm like okay but I got a couple of joints I'm
going to bring and he was okay so I got my foot
in the door and we hit it off pretty good and
uh probably by the end of the first year he gave
me the unit to run and it kind of it kind of
went like that and he's like man you ever think
about it on the carnival I'm like no Well, we
talked about it. I worked for him for about 10
years before I bought it. So we had a lot of
conversations about it. And did that appeal to
you? And was that ever on your radar to own a
show? Or is that just? Oh, oh, yeah, honestly,
here's here's a here's a goofy story. When we
immigrated, I say immigrated because we came
from the DC area when we immigrated to California
in I think we moved finally to Stave in 68. So
our first year we moved out here, we, as a family,
I was a little kid, I think I was like seven,
we went to the boardwalk in Santa Cruz. I don't
know if you've ever been there or not. It's very
cool. And they've got a carousel there and the
carousel's got like the little ring machine.
Oh yeah. Okay, so we're riding the carousel and
I get the brass one. And I was enchanted. And
I said, I want to own this. This is what I want
to do. I want to own the boardwalk. So when I
was a little kid, I knew I wanted to own the
boardwalk. I never owned the boardwalk, but I'm
close. But it's funny because I'm sitting in
my home office. I never surrendered it for the
free ride. I kept it. No way. Yeah. I named my
company after it. Fraspering Amusements. Yeah.
There you have it, folks. It all comes together.
That's uh it's weird right but I mean then looking
later I found it a box I'm like oh yeah I remember
this. Yeah I'm fascinated with those little summer
well not summer in California maybe but those
beat you know New Jersey's get a bunch of them
or whatever. Oh yeah. Here are the ocean ones
there's one by me I live in Virginia uh one by
me and uh or used to be in uh Nags Head, North
Carolina. those you know I don't know I just
I guess I have memories of going to like Fantasy
Island at Long Beach Island when I was a kid
but that such a cool business you know and you're
only open a few months right all the money in
a few months and have a great time for the summer
and I don't know they always they always uh intrigued
me a lot you know the vibe the vibe in those
places before we immigrated to California we
spent many summers, not the whole summer, but,
you know, down in Ocean City, Maryland. Oh, yeah.
OK. I remember I was a little kid. My dad took
me on that dark ride they have down there. I
think it's called the Haunted Mansion or Haunted
House. Something simple. I don't think it's one
of Trimper's. I think it's somebody else's. And.
So we're about. Well, my boys were about seven
and nine. um I took them to Ocean City and took
them in that dark ride scared the crap out of
them so legacy it's a great dark ride it's a
great dark ride and we went to Tony's for pizza
because you know that's what you do Maryland
yeah that's really neat there's yeah so many
cool places like that on the east coast with
the with the piers and whatnot, but California's
got a lot of them too. California's got a lot
of them too. California's got a lot of them too.
California's got a lot of them too. California's
got a lot of them too. California's got a lot
of them too. California's got a lot of them too.
California's got a lot of them too. California's
got a lot of them too. California's got a lot
of them too. California's got a lot of them too.
Having worked on the East Coast, going to school
back there, and worked on the West Coast, the
East Coast has the West Coast beat hands down
on food. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's
some bougie stuff out here, but just everyday
food. East Coast is so much better. Just so much
better. You know, I used to go with Marty Garen
a couple of times because he's looking to run
a fair out in California. Marty? No kidding.
He was kind of like a foodie. I ran the office
of the Meadowlands a couple years, the ticket
office, when I got a little older. But yeah,
we went out there because we were looking at,
where were we looking at? I think it was a Rose
Bowl. We were looking at doing something there.
I think it was a Rose Bowl. We were looking at
doing a fair there. And then we went to some
kind of diners, like a deli, like a New York
deli. but marty would remark that like the food
is like it's like they're pretending to be new
york food but not really new york food i'd say
that's ron that's a truth it's like styrofoam
like you know it's just get close you know whatever
there's a couple restaurants in san francisco
if you know you got four or five hundred to blow
for dinner for two and not worry about your car
being on blocks when you come out you know uh
the east coast has got us hammered when it comes
to food that's I think it's all the ethnicity
in that, you know, where people come from, whether
it's a Jewish deli or an Italian restaurant or
all those things. Yeah, there's no Jewish delis
here. I have to wait till I get to New York City
or South Florida, if you want to Kinesh or a
decent, you know. Oh, yeah, that's it. That's
your mouth waters. We don't even have Waffle
House. And I'm not talking about that's like
a fine Epicurean meal, but it sounds like we
don't even have Waffle House. But you do have
an In -N -Out burger? We do. There's that. It's
pretty good, but you can't eat that every day.
Yeah. From East Coast, we love going over there
and eating the In -N -Out burger once in a while.
Right, right, right. Yeah. There's one around
the corner for me, actually. I probably have
three or four minutes in the house. Although
in New Jersey, we have White and Hanna, which
is awesome. I don't know if you've ever been
there. Probably not. From the Middle Lands. What's
it called? White Manna, it's a little tiny diner
with like a U -shaped grill and they do, I guess
what they call smash burgers now, but they were
always doing them with onions. Little tiny place,
you go in this line out the door, you go in,
you're like, I've left three, I'll have four
with onions. Oh yeah, kind of like the little
taverns were around Baltimore. Yeah, this is,
I mean it's been around for forever. We used
to run away, we had high school at lunch sometimes,
we had enough time, we'd run there and get a
burger and run back. in between the place, but
it's still fun to go. I bring my kids once in
a while or somebody hasn't been a while. So there's
some great place to Jersey. The diners that you
got, the diners you guys have are amazing. The
one in Flemington there at the traffic circle.
Yeah. Flemington. Flemington. We don't have anything
like that. Marty used to have, you talk about
Marty Garen, he used to have an approved restaurant
list like me and Mark and Joey Fowler or whoever's
working. Cause you know, he'd go to a place like
loyally, I mean like crazy loyally, but then
like he'd go like one time I would say it'd be
a Saturday and he'd go to be going to a show
or doing something and he tried to get in and
They'd have room for him or something and he
would take great offense at this and he would
blacklist them and he'd be like you can't go
to Jerry's he has the place he used to go to
all time Jerry's and Mark would go let's go to
Jerry's. I said your dad will kill us. He's like
we won't tell him we'll just go to Jerry's and
and eat there, but he used to get mad at places
and he'd approve them and not approve them, don't
go there, go there, but he knew where to go.
He was definitely good at food. He knew the best
places and how to run them. He was a neat guy.
So when you took over, what was the, we're going
to talk about you some too, I think. When you
were taking over Sam, how big was the show? When
I bought the show, we were 24 rides, but nine
of them I already owned. I started buying equipment
almost immediately when I got here. And so I
think I already own nine of them. So I think
I bought like 14 rides from him and the name
as it were. And then, right. And then decided
to start building from there. And I had some
delusions of what I wanted to do. Made a ton
of mistakes. Carnival owning is not for the meek.
I don't recommend it. One star. The first the
first years are tough man, it's tough Get your
hand around even if you even if you're a show
manager and you have the nuts and bolts and mechanics
Metaphorically speaking on you know booking and
it's just different owning. It's just a different
It's a different kind of base and I hated my
phone because whenever it rang it was always
bad news It was never anything good. It was like
somebody's calling with the problem Nobody ever
calls you. Hey, how are you? I made it safely.
It's no problem. I'm here. Right. I need money.
I need money. It's something. It's it's a lot.
Eventually, you know, you wrangle the beast and
you get it under control and it's okay. And it
took it took a bit of time, probably at least
a handful of years to figure it out. And I used
to call Sam and call him names. I mean, ingest
but I did because, you know, we didn't share
that with me. He's like, No, that's the fun.
This is the prestige of owning a carnival. And
you had a relatively smooth transition in a way
because you were already kind of running it,
you know, so it wasn't like it was a whole new
mystery to you. No, and it was still very difficult.
There was stuff that I hadn't thought about it.
Stuff you don't think about. When you're the
manager of the show at the end of the day, you
can always call the owner and say, hey, you got
a problem. Just tap out, whatever. Yeah. And
there was nobody to call anymore to pass the
buck. to whatever whatever whatever was going
on and um sam's biggest i think his biggest reason
for getting out was a regulatory environment
you know he'd been there and he's just like none
of this makes any sense to me um i can't even
deal with it and for me it was you know i was
younger at the time i've been i've had the show
now for i don't know like 25 years i guess has
it been that long god almighty You're you know,
it comes on in layers. So it doesn't bother you
as much for him It seemed like a lot and he was
just over it just regulatory thing that you talk
about it So, you know, it's funny because I was
looking up a little bit of stuff about you and
I saw you actually ran into a problem too with
with And it's been that I cannot figure out for
the life of me What the problem is but it's like
a national crisis is with gray water. I saw like
a bunch of years back, you get some kind of fine
for having some gray water go somewhere. But
no one, health department, no one can explain
to me what the problem is. I can wash my dog
next to my trailer, go on the ground, a bird
can poop on the trailer, but if I wash my hands
and it went in a tank, it's toxic waste. It makes
no sense. It's the craziest thing. I mean, what
is the point? It's the effing internet. And everybody's
an expert and all of the feigned outrage. Yeah,
it's dishwater. It's incredible. We spend a small
fortune every year in wastewater tanks and wastewater
removal. And I'm not talking about toilet water.
I'm talking about shower water. Right, right.
It is a small. And you can literally shower outside
and nobody would find you. It's a couple thousand
dollars a week. We do or event or maybe more.
It depends on where we are. And we play like,
you know, 65, 70 events. It's a lot of money
to. To do what? Right, it's absolutely insane.
I mean, I told you, we had a house in Greenwood
Lake, and when I was a kid, my grandma used to
go, every morning, go swimming, and she'd have
a bar of soap, you know, like in the rock by
our little beach, and she would, you know, kind
of soap up and go swimming, and that was her
shower, whatever, I guess. But it just, it bothered,
and when you, you know, obviously when I was,
in charge of stuff, I didn't ask. But now I'm
not afraid to ask because I got nothing to lose.
So I just like, you know, ask one of these health
inspectors like, well, I don't understand what's
the problem. They can't explain it to you. They'll
come up with some nonsense. And half the time
they're confused between black water and gray
water. They don't know the difference. That's
a fact. I mean, they really don't. And they say,
oh, you don't want, you know, human waste. I
said, it's not human waste. You're talking about
a shower or washing your hands or anything else.
The act of going into a tank makes it toxic.
It's it's the craziest thing. If it goes through
some tubes and goes in the tank, it's deadly.
If you just pour water on yourself outside or
if it rains or whatever else, it's fine. No problem.
It's the most. It's ridiculous. And for when
you travel the East Coast and you go from state
to state, there's going to be a little variance
in the rules, correct? Sure. There's 84 counties
in California. And I swear to God, your health
inspector will not tell you the same thing. We
get a health inspection. every single week, because
we move counties every week. And you can't get
the same answer for the same thing. I mean, 25
years ago, it was like scooping or scoop out
of the ice, which was like the dilemma. Well,
we prefer to do it, you know, here. It's Jesus.
It's crazy. My question is, what have they done?
I mean, what has it done? Are people dying less?
Are there less? I would I would venture to say
there's probably no difference, but there's a
lot of regulation. But There's no difference.
I don't ever remember anybody getting food poisoning
from a corn dog in the 49 years I've been doing
this. Right. But my cousin was like an alarmist
there. He's a musician. So he worries about all
these crazy things. He's telling me about hamburgers
had to be cooked to a certain temperature. You
could die and blah, blah, blah. So we were at
this place and I had the waitress. I was like,
have you had a lot of people dropped in from
eating hamburgers here that are, you know, she
laughs. She's like, no, what are you talking
about? He's like, oh, you're being ridiculous.
I said, I'm not. If somebody should know, it
should be the waitress at the hamburger place
that, you know, they're really asking you how
you want them cooked. Well, I'd like my medium.
Well, it's not going to be 160 in the middle
if you cook it medium. Okay. Right. I mean, because
you can, you can do that. You got to, you know,
a good hamburger joint. They'll ask how you want
it. especially cat burgers. It's my chicken.
I was talking to like Avery Wheelock and some
inspection people and you know I don't know how
you do it exactly but I would be fascinated to
do an article or a story on the difference in
inspections carnival ride inspections right with
by state because some states don't have an inspection
some states you get inspected every week some
states you get inspected once a month but is
there really a difference, a measurable difference
in safety and accidents that occur. You want
my opinion? Yes. Yes, sure. There is a difference.
Okay. Absolutely. We have, honestly, we have
a lot of regulations. We don't get as many inspections
here in California, like we don't get inspected
every week. You get probably four, five a year.
The first one you schedule for your permit and
the ones that follow ups after that are what
they call unannounced. But the requirements we
put together and the way we have to do our training
and our maintenance and all like that, I'm telling
you right now, it's made us better operators.
Full stop, I don't mind the extra set of eyes.
I don't mind the regulation as long as you don't
have a guy coming in like the Gestapo. We don't
have my company, we don't have an adversarial
relationship with any of the regulatory agencies,
especially when it comes to ride safety and stuff.
We don't. I know it's different other places,
but it's it's OK here. We have a lot of rules
and it's kind of I'm kind of OK with it. It makes
sense. We it didn't used to be OK out here. We
used to have a lot of problems with them out
here. But a bitch got on her broom and flew off
into the sunset. I'm not even kidding. I got
nothing nice to say. And we got some more reasonable
people that said, yeah, ASTM standards would
be the one to follow. So we got because you would
get different. requirements from different inspectors,
which I assume that what you're talking about
when you go jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I don't
mind that part of the regulatory environment
here at all. Extra set of eyes, it's worth it.
I'm just talking numbers. Like, does California
or another state that doesn't have an inspection
have more incidents than a place like Florida
where you get inspected every single week? or
North Carolina or some other place. No, no, no.
I think it's the same. We operate in Nevada.
There's no inspection protocols in Nevada. It
depends on where you go. If I go into the Reno
market, they want to make sure I have California
permits on my rides. Then you're good. Yeah,
there's no inspections. Like New Jersey is going
to be like, oh, this looks good. I'll just get
on the ride. Now they have all these, it's crazy.
It's mostly paperwork thing. It's not really
an inspection. Well, New Jersey, didn't all that
come from that fire? No, it was after that, because
even in the early days of the metal lands, the
inspection was not much, but then they made it
where you had to provide plans. Oh yeah, then
they get ridiculous. Oh yeah, we have some of
that here. If you want to do permanent installs
in California, don't, just don't, save your money.
It's just forever, forever to get anything permanent
done out here. Just ridiculous. But I guess what
I'm saying more is the number of actual accidents,
incidents where the ride breaks or something
happens, it's infinitesimal. Most of the accidents
that happen are some sort of patron error or
something that goes on fooling around or doing
something along that. Absolutely. So when you
get close to zero, as far as failure rate on
something like that, more inspection doesn't
get you even closer to zero because there's still
machines that could break. you know you could
have a freak thing that happens but you know
the focus is always seems to be on inspection
and when it should be maybe the difference you
could because when you look at them when you
look at a budget and you say oh I need to save
money you don't start at the at the thing that's
cheapest or the lowest level thing or you start
where you can save the most money right so if
the biggest problem is is patron error in some
way then we should be focusing on that instead
of ending inspection where there's not that many
accidents you know or really there's that yeah
no i agree with you but for the inspections work
for us the regulations work for us we have a
lot of daily inspections and other stuff like
grounds so there's a there's an inspection we
do prior to opening there for trip hazards and
all like that but more than anything i mean you
want it safe it's not your interest in an incident
and also we live in a very litigious society
and and the inspectors Let me see if I can articulate
something about sounding like an idiot. Sometimes
I get confused. Like, it works. And California's
got the response. The state of California, the
fictitious corporation, has the responsibility
to oversee portable amusement rides or permanent
amusement rides or whatever it is. So they're
going to come and they're going to do their part
because, you know, they don't want to get sued.
They don't want to look bad. So some of it is
like, it's a little extra, you know what I mean?
And from the industry side of it, nobody wants
to have a problem. It's like an airline. Like
the last thing you want to do is have a problem
with one of your aircraft. It's bad for business.
But I don't think some of the people on the regulatory
side see it that way. It's always like an us
and them. Yeah, no, it is. And we've got a good
relationship. So it's not. But I mean, but in
a lot, I've been around like when I was on Big
A, that's when I remember when Dan Dudley first
started doing inspections. Maryland. And they
made a sandbag shit. Do you remember those days?
And I remember going up to New Jersey or someplace.
Bob, I was a sidekick. And we actually Jersey
load tested to get to a hearing about this crazy
idea was called non -destructive testing and
tried to explain to these guys that, yeah, 250
pounds of sand is not the same as a 250 pound
person. But back in the early days, people didn't
understand that. They were just like, no, it's
250 pounds. No, there's a difference, you know,
between being a person or a bag of sand or whatever.
I remember that. What about North Carolina? They
instituted what's called the 100 % law. So if
a lap bar on a Himalaya is not good, in some
places you could just rope off that seat, right?
North Carolina, you can't do even a merry -go
-round. One horse is down, can't run the ride,
you know, and so, but then they take that. Well,
I had like one of those, it was essentially a
Raiders, but it was one of those, you know, Terry
Curl built some rides. And there was a ball crawl
in the middle. Well, these guys came and they
said, and we were in Carthage, North Carolina
or wherever we were. And they said, well, it's
supposed to be a thousand balls. Well, three
of them sat there and counted the balls. They
were 856. I've almost let that fall out of my
mouth. That is So I had to go get 144 balls.
I went to every, like, Toys R Us, you know, with
some stupid game that had 10 balls and I bought
like 20 of them, threw them in there. But, you
know, and then I had a Mulligan Searay one time.
And thank God, Jonathan Brooks saved me because
I called him. But, you know, their manual is
like a picture book. Well, in the picture, they
had the drive on the left side of the ride. Well,
ours was on the right side of it because Mulligan,
I think he just, you know, whatever. I don't
know, whatever, something you did on the other
side. So they're like, you have to move it. I
said, are you kidding? Why? Yeah, they want me
to move it from the right side to the left side,
the left side, the right side. I said, I'm not
qualified to do that. And are you going to write
me in order to tell me I have to do that? So
if something goes wrong, it's on you. And I wind
up, and I got to Jonathan, who's the head at
the time. And he said, no, that's crazy. But
they busted our balls for it. a long time and
you know, threaten not to open. And that's the
kind of thing I say that's, you know, it's like,
is doing that level of quote unquote inspection
for safety or is it, what is it? You know, what
is it? No, that's, no, that's, that's ridiculous.
And some of these, uh, some of these guys have
built like little fiefdoms, you know, and they're
intoxicated. Thanks dog. They're intoxicated
on their own, uh, their own self into Howard.
Like you're supposed to bow down. But it has
nothing to do with safety. It doesn't make it
any safer or many less safe. It's just ridiculous.
It's just over regulation. Over the years, I've
been told some absolutely ridiculous things.
Just ridiculous. In fact, we have an organization
called CalPRO, which is the California Portable
Ride Operators. At one time, the state told us
we had to put seat belts in our gondola wheels.
It stemmed from an incident, this is like 20
years ago. So we banded together and we took
them to task on that and we prevailed. It was
ridiculous. So. Yeah, they're gonna keep them
in there with a seat belt. So you went from just
having a brass ring or a midway fun to what made
you decide to get two carls the pandemic i always
i actually always wanted to kind of branch out
a little bit and um the pandemic was the opportunity
my wife at the time she's like we've been talking
about this for four years why don't you get off
your ass and do something there's nothing going
on here and i'm like okay okay so um i did and
we put it together and we started uh Started
out pretty strong, and it's kind of leveled out
now. I decided we didn't want to go as far as
Wyoming. We went out and played that Central
Wyoming State Fair, whatever it is there in Casper,
and it was great. But by the time we got home,
we didn't make any money because it's too far.
You learned that from Murphy. Well, you think
I had to retain that, but I didn't. And, you
know, I said, well, let's go try that. I'm not
risk adverse, so we went and tried it, came back.
I said, yeah, I'm not doing that again. It says,
oh, it's only, you know, 900 and 10 miles and
then drive it. And you're like, holy shit, that's
a long way. And the people out there were super
nice, great committee to work with. But I called
him after the fair. I'm like, I just I can't
make the math math on this. And and we know we
parted ways amicably. We're fine. And we did
some stuff in Utah and we still we're still going
into Oregon and Idaho. It's hard to. the show
basically is five years old. So, you know, it
takes time to build a route. That's the hardest
part, right? Is building the route. And so we
got, we're probably 60 % on building the route
out and, and do that and not go screw with somebody
else. Cause I try really hard not to do that.
I'll find my own events and find my own stuff.
And, uh, so just kind of a, you know, it takes
a little bit of time. I'm kind of having fun
with it. It's fun to kind of mess with a new
brand. and it's got a different array of equipment.
And sometimes for fun, we put the two shows together
and, ooh, yeah, it looks okay. I feel pretty
good about that, you know. So you have to put
both units together. Pardon me? You have to put
both units together. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Or not
like the boat's complete shows, like I'll pull
10 rides out of there and we'll come in and play
some of these. what we consider bigger dates
for us. We're a medium -sized show. So I'll pull
some equipment out of there to come play some
of the bigger fairs we have. But once or twice,
we put it all together. And it's a lot of stuff.
I was talking at one of the shows I work with
a lot and do some advertising for. And he has
two pretty big units. And he said the other day,
and I never really, I mean, I guess I realized
it at some level, but he's never put both units
together before. He was thinking about just setting
up in a field and seeing what it looked like.
Set the whole thing up because he probably has
50 60 rides, you know between the two things
exactly Never never come together like that.
So it's it's interesting I'm gonna do that for
an event that I have in my brain Like like it's
stored in my head like okay I know what that's
gonna look like and I think I know where I want
to do it and how I want to do it so eventually
I'll do that and For nothing else for fun. I
think I could make money doing it too, but I
think it'd be fun Although there might be some
duplicates. Like, I don't know if we put both
zippers next to each other, put both the big
wheels next to each other, you know, like inventory.
Yeah, there'd be some duplicates. All the rides
that go up and down over here, the ones that
go with yellow. I think a lot of shows, and you
know, I was kind of, I've worked with a lot with
Marty and then later with Brian Schuman, who
had Fair Productions. You know, a lot of the
independent private fairs, I've... ran or worked
with over the years a lot of times. And, you
know, when they were doing Name initially, I
kept thinking like, you know, the carnival's
great and it's great to combine, but they're
still dependent upon the fairs. I thought all
those, even if they're a medium -sized show,
honestly, if you get the right people, you should,
I think, I'm surprised more shows don't do this,
except, you know, some of them are risk averse
to, although they're, it's funny, because certain
things, they're completely risk crazy. And other
things are completely risk averse, but having
someone that can run events and developing your
own events, starting them from scratch, you know,
because you've got long term then if you do that,
you know, if you run your own event and do your
own event, you're not dependent on the fair and,
you know, their whims or a bid or whatever else,
or you help build it up. And then next thing
you know, there might be another carnival bidding
on it, cost you more or you might lose it or
whatever else that, you know, having an event
arm. I think is almost essential and maybe for
the future more people think about that. But
really it's a pretty cost -effective way to solve
a huge problem if you have the right people around
you. Look what Davey Helm is doing. Yeah, he's
doing a lot of that. I want to call him a kid
because I'm older, but he's not really a kid.
He's very smart, very sharp person, knows what's
up. That's the future. I've talked to him quite
a few times in... you know first thing you think
he's crazy because he's talking so fast and saying
all these crazy things but he seems to do what
he you know he says he's uh he knows what he's
doing he absolutely knows what he's doing he's
like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do that like
okay for real is he really gonna do that but
he is you know he's doing all that stuff and
he talks about you know the you know like having
a disney park and i think he does well at least
what i read He does a lot of really neat things
with the show and what he's doing. Very, very
innovative. He's got he's got good ideas and
young minds, fresh ideas, which is where I'm
at in life. My sons have decided to join the
business. Nice. They grew up around it, but I
would I the first 10 years on in the show, like
I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. And I'm
like you guys don't want to do this you don't
want to do this and now it's like it doesn't
suck once you got it and so they're out learning
the business and soon as they're ready to go
and they have great ideas. Because during their
20s I'm in my 60s it's a huge difference when
it comes to perspective so they got good ideas
and good marketing ideas. There it is and that
seems to be that might be the winning formula
and so. Saving a few of the steps you've made
over the years. It's funny, we were talking about
that. I said, and this is great for you guys,
because man, I've done all the hard work. Like
the hard stuff's done. This is here. It's not
great. It's not terrible. It's meh. It's OK.
We're doing OK. You can take it from there to
the next level. Easy peasy. You got a crew. You
don't have to. Nope. Yeah, we got plenty of staff
to make it happen. and some of these private
events and stuff like that, I think that's the
future. Having good people, Ronnie, is just so...
Private events are really big. I'm going to be
doing one soon with Wade's shows in a few weeks
running one. But I love doing it. But the problem
you run into sometimes with running an event
as a carnival is everything is built around the
carnival and the route. And it's not always the
best environment for the event. In other words,
you try to shoehorn something into a hole you
have. That may not be the best time of year,
it may not be the best facility, but if it's
your route. You are 100 % correct. And you end
up failing. Yeah. Because I did that a couple
of years ago for somebody and it was, it was
like the summer and it was like everything was
played out already. And on one level I knew it
was going to be, you know, not great. And it
wasn't not great. It wasn't horrible. It was
probably better than playing a mall or something
like that but you know because that that natural
friction between the fair guy and the carnival
guy is good in some ways would you get you know
the fair guy might push the carnival to bring
in some more rides than he otherwise might not
want to bring and you know might spend a little
more on advertising than other things and you
know a little bit of that friction is always
good because it pushes both of you to be better
no i agree with that 100 absolutely absolutely
food varieties another thing like you get your
regular guys So you don't bring in, uh, you know,
some ethnic food or some other cool thing that
to make it a little more, you know, palatable
to everybody. If you're going to produce, produce
your own events and you're a show owner, you
cannot be protectionist. Yeah. And that's, and
that's kind of what they do. They're like, well,
you know, I don't want to book too many hot dogs
and need a penny because I got hot dogs. No,
dude, you're getting paid out of there too. And
you need to think of it from the customer experience.
And I don't have to explain this to you because
you know, we're not selling. marrying around
ride tickets anymore we're selling the experience
and it's a big it's a big difference and it just
in your approach to how you market it and what
the product the final product's like it's about
the experience it's not it it's just a different
i know it's like but there's a difference i know
you understand that so what are you doing you
said your sons have some pretty cool marketing
ideas and doing stuff like that what are you
are you doing anything interesting uh not so
much interesting that a different approach especially
in the way um the way if you're doing any kind
of stuff on social, the way it looks, the appearance,
the texture of it. They're working on putting
some stuff together for TikTok, which I don't
even have it on my phone and not because I'm
a boomer, just because I think it'll melt your
brain. And I'm not big on social media. So they
are. I have a person on the team that does it
full time and they communicate with her. on how
stuff needs to look. But we're talking about
like producing our own events and they have good
ideas on what that looked like and how to frame
it out. I talk about this, I'm kind of with you,
is it personally? I'm not a big social media
user, but obviously, if I'm in the advertising
business, which I am, I have to do a lot of stuff
along those lines. We really need new words or
nomenclature for what we do. I talk about digital.
And depending on who I'm talking to, they go
right to social. And it's not like I do streaming
TV, streaming audio, display ads. And I try to
break it down to explain it to people that it's
like there's an old school parallel. So like
newspaper ad is like a display ad. A display
ad online is a newspaper ad. digital audios like
radio and digital videos like TV and then you
can explain why it's better and you know why
you can target people specifically or as you
could in the old days or why you can do all the
things you can do and explain that but you know
and then you have social but social to me it's
like the difference between PR and advertising
right back in the day when you did PR if I got
a story in the newspaper that was what we called
earned media right it was something It wasn't
just an ad. You had to do something, you had
to think of an angle, and you had to do something,
you'd convince the reporter to do it. Socially,
you're not just putting up, and I see this so
much, where they just put up an ad, like they
make an ad, and they put it on Facebook. That's
not gonna earn you anything. You gotta be creative,
and you gotta have, you can't be so punch in
the face type thing, you gotta be like, oh. There's
a kid eating something and he's doing a backflipper.
There's a dolphin in it or a seal and whatever.
It's going to get their attention. It takes time
and it takes thought and it takes creativity
to do it right. So many people go, oh, I just
use Facebook. I'm like, OK, that's great, but
you're really not doing much. Best money I've
spent is on Google Ads. Absolutely. Well, Google
AdWords, they're good because it's called a funnel.
It's called bottom of the funnel. So people are
already Googling something. They're looking for
you. And you're just going, OK, here I am. So
you're kind of fishing in a small pond. And I'm
like, it's good. You should have it. And it's
going to be the most effective because it's already
there. Because they're searching for something
to do. And then your thing comes up. But they're
already in the funnel. So it's a little easier
to get them than it is doing just advertising
and targeting. say women 25 to 54 with kids,
because they're already looking for you and you're
just going, hey, here you are. But you know,
there's sometimes like, like I was with a client
the other day, who does a great job with his
website and SEO and stuff like that. And I showed
him where I Googled carnival this weekend. And
his thing came up first. But then he was buying
stuff with Google AdWords and was coming up above,
you know, so they were clicking on the first
one, which was his paid one, which cost them
money. Whereas he would have been first anyway,
you know, he came up great. So, you know, it's,
it's a little bit situational. It depends on
your SEO and what you're doing and how well you
- Do you know what mobile conquesting is? I mean,
that'd be a brand. That's a, that's a company
I use and we serve the ads right to the devices.
To their phones. Yep. In a geofenced area. They
already have the demo. Um, we do a lot of that.
Yeah, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool.
It's kind of who do we again? I'm a boomer, you
know, like I guess that works I never get served
in those ads, but I'm the wrong demographic.
I should Well, let's get you know, we do the
top 50 list every year and I've been working
a lot with cell phone data and AI data and You
know now like I just did analysis for for quirky
powers for his amusement park. I can tell Everybody
went to that park last year where they came from,
like what cities they traveled from, when they
came, what months they came, what hotels they
stayed at, all that data, and I started doing
it with the top 50, see how many people really
go to these fairs, and the data gets unbelievable,
and it matches, you know, you know which fairs
report the right numbers, and some, you know,
make up numbers, but it's incredible, the information,
it's absolutely incredible, and so I'm probably
going to be using that for the top 50 this year,
because and people will be mad at me, there's
no question. We're people that lie, you know,
or not lie, but have padded numbers, let's say,
will change. But, you know, the amount of information
you have, and with that information, it makes
you a better marketer, too, is you get the information,
who came last year, when they came, what specials
worked, did my audience change when I did a dollar
night, then when I did, you know, something else,
or, you know, what kind of wristbands they buy,
and it's... It's incredible. And that's the whole
that's that granular information is very important.
If you're going to run a BOGO on wristbands on
Thursday, are we giving it away or are we attracting
a customer we don't normally get? Because that's
the idea. And and you need to know or your coupon
like you were talking about. That's very important
to get that to gather that information. That's
how you know if it's working or not. And then
get the data. Yeah, absolutely. Has to be data
driven. It's got to ring the cash register. You
can have the greatest Facebook, you know, whatever.
But if nobody's going to take it, it's useless.
You know, I mean, essentially, I'm being very
cut, but that's the bottom line. You can have
the most, you know, you study this in advertising,
like some of the biggest advertising campaigns
and most memorable didn't necessarily sell product.
You remember the ad, but did it sell? And then
you have things like, you know, you grew up in
New York and New Jersey, crazy Eddie, you know,
just yelling. Just yelling. But it was a very
effective ad and it made a big company out of
it. Would it win any advertising awards? Hell
no. It was just silly. I'll tell you what, I
bought my first CD player from him. That's right.
And it was effective. And that's what it's got
to be, is effective. You can have the most creative,
wonderful, esoteric ad, but if it doesn't ring
the cash register, it's over. Harry, I can't
believe it's been an hour talking. I barely talked
about your show. Oh, we're good, right? It was
great catching up with you, buddy. I gotta get
out to California and see the show and meet your
kids and stuff like that. It'd be fun. Yeah,
come hang out. It'd be neat. And yeah, I mean,
that's just kind of low key. It's early in the
morning out here, so I'm not too fired up yet,
you know? That's awesome. Thank you so much for
coming on and sharing about Grasping. I hope
Sam's gonna come on soon, because I'd like to
get Sam his history down, too. You know, he just
finished a book. He said that. And he's getting
it edited. And we were talking about it the other
day. And I said, man, you better not be talking
shit about me. So we'll see what happens. No,
but there's a chapter. He sent me some notes,
like just on the way out to Dragon South. He
sent me some notes, what he was talking about.
He's like. Oh, find me a sucker to buy your carnival.
Oh, no. He's like, the guy can't. He made some
reference, like maybe I didn't know how to lay
a lot out or something, right? And I fired back
in a text message. I said, well, if you'd had
a goddamn show to lay out, I had a terrible teacher.
It wasn't, well, it wasn't big enough to do anything
with it. You had night rides. Yeah. Like, okay,
how good can you make it? Look, Jesus Christ.
Yeah. All right, buddy. Well, I appreciate you
so much coming on and let's keep in touch. Okay.
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