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.com, or AmusementParkWarehouse .com. Welcome
to another edition of the Music Warehouse podcast.
Today our guest is Lee Stevens. fresh out of
Gibson in Florida there. Lee has done so many
things in the industry, but he's now capping
off his career with probably the highest paid
job in the industry, no? Yeah. As museum director
for the Carnival Museum as we refer to it, colloquially,
for the Showman's Foundation. Lee, welcome. Thanks
so much for coming on on short notice and coming
out of surgery. You just got your wing repaired
there. Yeah, yeah, but I'm okay. It's just a
little uncomfortable, but no severe pain. So
I'm glad for that. Good. And you're not on drugs
right now? No, no, no, no. I don't know. Extra
strength Tylenol is about what I do. Nice. That's
what I did too when I had surgery. I had back
surgery and I didn't take any of that. I was
so scared of getting addicted to something, I
didn't do it. Exactly, exactly. And I'm the guy
that, listen, I've been sober for 48 years, so
I'm not going to... Wow, congratulations. Yeah.
Congratulations. I'm 49. That's right in the
mom's room. So, you know, I don't know that much
about your long -term history. I know your fairly
recent history, but, you know, how'd you get
started and where'd you grow up? You sound like
a New Yorker to me, but where'd you... get started
and where'd you go? New York City and at 15 I
left home to join the circus. I didn't run away
from a bad home. I left to join the circus. Manhattan
or where were you growing up? In Staten Island,
New York. Staten Island? Yeah. I run away too
from Staten Island. I'm from New Jersey. We had
farms, dead bodies from Brooklyn and me. Mob
hits. It was wonderful. So you saw a circus,
or what did you answer, or you just ran? Every
year we used to go to Madison Square Garden between
my birthday, my sister's, and my brother's. We'd
make the big trek, take the ferry, take the subways,
get off at 51st Street, where the old garden,
one of the old gardens was. And I was hooked.
I was hooked when I was a kid, four, five, six,
seven years old. I don't know what I was gonna
do, but that's what I wanted to be. So it finally
I got out of grade school and started freshman
year in high school and There was a certain small
circuit I thought it was the biggest thing in
the world but a small circus came to a racetrack
on Staten Island and I went got there about 5
30 in the morning before daylight and Just sat
around sat around till I saw some activity and
then found out who the managers was and asked
for a job Wow Well, I had to get permission from
my parents and blah, blah, blah. Long story short.
So I had a Schwinn Stingray. Nice. Not that we
had money, my grandmother did. I was going to
say somebody had some money if they had a Schwinn
Stingray. That's a nice bike. It was candy apple
blue. It was red. Beautiful. Anyway, I rode back
home, got a paper bag full of my junk, brown
paper bag, put a sleeping bag into some clothes
and underwear, and off I went. My parents, my
mother most, where the hell you think you're
going? Well, I'm going to join the circus. What?
I'm going to join the circus. Nobody believed
me. So finally, they decided to drive me back
in the car, my parents, and my father was great.
He said, you know what, go. He said, what are
you going to do? Go. If he wants to go, let him
go. And my mother still had a fit. She had a
fit until I got sent a ring of Ringling Brothers
Monument Bailey Circus. But once I did that and
had the whole neighborhood out there in the seats
with her, then she kind of realized. Not such
a bad idea. And like what background were your
parents? What did your dad do in your mom? My
dad was a executive at Procter and Gamble and
my mother was worked for a brokerage firm on
Wall Street. And she worked for the last independent
brokerage firm on Wall Street before it was merged.
So they were they were they let you do it. Yeah,
my mother built for the time was just when you
gotta come home and get a job. When you come
home and get a job. I mean, none of it was unheard
of. Who runs away and joins the circus, you know?
But I did. Yeah, especially from that sort of
background, I'm sure they expected. Oh, yeah.
No, no, no. My brother, he was a plumbing contractor.
My sister was, I don't know what you call it,
an associate teacher for handicaps. mentally
disturbed. Yeah, like a teaching assistant type
thing. Yeah, she wasn't exactly what she was.
The teacher's assistant. She's the one that got
the beatings. Yeah, she has to do the hard work,
right? Miami did that for a while with the same
type of she loved. She still does to this day.
She still takes on a couple of autistic severely
autistic kids three days a week. Well, so yeah,
she's dedicated. We all dedicated in our own
way. So I love the business. So you joined the
circus, what were your first jobs? Like putting
the tent up or cleaning the elephant? That was
the second job. The first week was shoveling
up the elephant crap and finding water, water
buckets and filling them up for the elephants.
That was my first job. On the fifth day, then
it was my job to do that, plus help set up the
sideshow so the animals can get out of the trucks
and get in that tent. And after that was done,
the third week, I did the elephants, I did the
sideshow, and then had help in the big top as
a prop man, of which there was only me and an
old guy named Whitey. And everybody has a Whitey
on their show. I was going to say, there's always
an old guy named Whitey. Yep. And then, about
that time, I started having a cross -form in
my crew cut, in my hair. There was no showers
and like that, so there was a big 55 -gallon
drum. And I decided to get in it, my underwear,
to borrow soap. I thought they were going to
kill me, because that was water for the house
trailers. There was no water back then. They
had to fill them. And I kind of contaminated
the water from the water truck. So Whitey chased
me around a tent with a tent stake for a little
while. He never caught me. And then a couple
of the acts took pity on me. And some of them
had kids my age. So it was nice. I kind of found
a home. And the rest is history. I worked my
way up from that. I did trapeze. I did juggling
act. I did a roller skating act, believe it or
not. You learned it all through the performers
were willing to teach you? Yeah, well, and just
by watching them and trying to do what they did.
Yeah, yeah. Well, but it's fascinating though,
listening to you describe this because, you know,
your average person out there would say, this
guy joined the circus. Oh, my God, it had to
be horrible. What did they do to him? You know,
or how much did they abuse him and all that.
There was a lot of trial by fire. But how were
you treated, though? Did you feel at home? Were
they nice to you? Were they? No, no one's nice
to the prop guys. The circus had, back then,
not so much now, a very rigid class system. And
there was the lowest of the low, which I was.
And then you had the next guys were like the
managers of the tents and the concession people.
And then came some of the acts. And then came
the front end, which was the owners usually and
more upper management. And it's a very tight
class system. Not so much today. My kids will
never know how that felt. But I mean, it's kind
of funny to be a minority in your own minority.
And that's what it is. But I worked at it, worked
at it, worked at it. And there was lots of people
that kind of took pity on me. I just wanted to
be adopted into famous circus family. Well, that
never happened so I created my own, thank goodness.
Then I went into the animal business, Ron. I
was doing a juggling act and a trapeze act and
then I had an affinity for dogs and then the
off time between seasons I went back to my parents
in Staten Island and there was a grooming shop
not too far and I learned how to groom dogs so
I started acquiring dogs, poodles in fact. At
the height of my poodle career, I had 31 poodles,
15 standards and 16 minis. And we were doing
one night stands for 44 weeks with a fabulous
little circus that played mostly armories and
high school gymnasiums. But it was a fabulous
show. And I grew five dogs a day every day, seven
days a week. So my whole thing is what they look
like. The tricks. You know, they were all good.
They were all entertaining. But my thing was
all on the presentation. I had smoke machines.
I had a pseudo dancing water in my act and things
like that. Just it was the liberation of the
dog acts is what what they turned me to be. And
at that point, I was already sober, so it was
the least even champagne poodles and all the
dogs were named one form or another of alcohol.
It was fun. That's fun. That's fun. So you had
an affinity for animals. Yep. And then for the
dogs, we went into, I started getting baboons.
I went to buy some leopards to do a leopard act.
The guy said, ah, there were diamond dust monkeys.
Nobody's doing that, which there was two other
people doing it. And so the baboons was my ticket
to everywhere. I will say that. And what was
the idea behind that act at first? What were
you thinking? My wife's, they've, kind of got
her pretty bad position several times. I mean,
I was the alpha. So I mean, I was going to the
and I talked to them. I treated them like baboons.
I didn't try to expect them to be like people.
So I had the whole truck would turn into one
big cage where they could have their own private
fights and sort out their own pecking order.
They're very rigid pecking order when the baboon
society. So the surface. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But
it worked, you know, as long as the first two
big baboons love me. They did anything I needed
them to do. They protected me from the other
ones, actually. Sounds kind of violent. There
wasn't like that totally all the time. But there's
a point where you have to integrate into the
troop or you don't have nothing. They eat you
up for lunch. And then we had California sea
lions. We were the first sea lion act when I
married my wife. And we were the first seal act
in America in 15 or 16 years just because of
the process. And the way the USDA, the size requirements
for tanks and things like that got to be almost
prohibitive to even be able to travel. They thought
they had it cornered by not traveling, but I
found a way around everything and just comply
with whatever they wanted. And they finally relinquished
and gave us the permits to do it. So we had two
sons born. Well, my wife was a horsewoman from
Canada. She was quite a horse woman, dressage
and Prince Philip games and different things,
three -day eventing. So we ended up starting
to buy little miniature horses. And our boys
were five and six and a half at that point. And
we went to Baboo, Wisconsin again. We used to
go up there to change acts and stuff like that.
And even though we were on ringling, they sent
us up there and we changed the act. They put
the boys in it, finished training the pony act.
So we had the baboon act and the pony act. on
our last tour with Ringling. So I made my goal.
My goal was the kid from nowhere to be with the
greatest show on earth. And I guess you could
liken that to back in the day when you were on
The Royal, you know what I mean? Or Seltzer and
Wilson, Straits, all the bigger, bigger shows.
Jimmy Drew, I mean, these were all big time plays,
I think, in the carnival world. If you were able
to get a location on any one of those shows,
you were big time, especially the railroad shows.
Yeah, playing in Ringlingwood is the pinnacle
really for circus, for the circus, right? Yeah,
so where do you go after that? Well, we built
a show called the Baboon Lagoon, which was small.
I remember that one. Sorry? I remember that one.
Oh, there you go. Great. And we set a new watermark
there in the fair industry. What possessed you
to do that, though? What were you thinking? After
you worked for Ringling Brothers, it's the greatest,
biggest show in the world. And we had several
times we went to Europe and we did different
things. But Ringling was the creme de la creme,
for me personally. And after that was over, then
where do you go? We would go back and we'd play
some shrine circuses, which there's still some
around, not like they used to be. But your time
in Ringling you knew was going to be limited
because they only You have a food track for so
long, right? The bad ones are only in fashion
for so long. It's only you for so long. We had
a 10 -year association with them and it was the
greatest 10 years up to that point of my life
and career. And then where do you go? We thought,
okay, we're going to go with Clyde Beatty. That's
the next best choice. Or Circus Vargas. Those
two were the biggest of the best 10 shows that
were out there with long seasons. My thing was
to have long seasons because I used to have money.
don't we all? Anyway, that didn't transpire.
So I built a big stage for the Baboon Lagoon.
We decided to get into the fair market. And then
the following year built another show because
they liked the Baboon show so much. Hey, what
else you got? Well, now I got the Wild West Follies,
which I didn't, but I booked it before I had
it. And then we had all the King's Horses. I
had Lippez on some Friesian horses, Stallions
in the show. And these were all half hour, 40
minute shows. It wasn't just you know, here's
a monkey, watch him do a trick. I mean, they
were all themed out, all with music cues and
everything. And it was, they were all built with,
back in my head was with a Disney look for the
fans, which there really wasn't many of them.
You know, they had a lot of high acts and not
taken away from anybody else's gigs. But I wanted
to be, I wanted to be the biggest and the most
sought after. So I got, we were lucky that way.
And a lot of the carnival owners, which was great,
they actually went out to their committees. For
the first year we were in Vegas, we booked a
whole year just because two or three carnival
or showgoers went out and said, look, if I'm
paid for empty entertainment, I'd like you to
get these guys. And so we were lucky that way,
very lucky. And that movie got booked real well
the first year. Yeah, it was consistent, it booked
really well. Well, in the intro, I'm just putting
this on 45 instead of 33 RPM. I had two heart
attacks, both at the circus here in Kiptown,
and I produced a circus here. And just pressure,
and I wanted everything to be right and perfect.
It's kind of a curse. I like to be a perfectionist
that way. And anyway, I had two heart attacks.
And then so I said, you know, the baboon thing's
getting a little too big, a little too much to
push around the country anymore. Maybe we better
back down a little bit. How many years have you
been doing that? Twelve. Twelve years? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, then I retired the
animals. They stayed in our yard for another
18 months or so and Bobby know the sister Debbie
had doubles off the gorilla Chimp farm over in
Torpon Springs. They had all new accreditation
with the USDA. They were all good to go and they
had Bank of America several other big corporate
sponsors building new caging and stuff and they
asked me Would you like to bring the baboons
over? We'd love to have them. And I said, yeah,
I think it's time these girls, you know, we put
them out in the morning and soon as the noceums
come in Florida, we have noceums, start biting
and itching. You know, they start shaking the
cage. We want to go back into the truck with
its air conditioning and TV. So it got to be
it was hard on them and us, you know, they were
used to working and now it's a big breaks were
put on, you know. So but they went to a beautiful
facility over there. It was just a very nice
facility. I didn't tell any of them what their
names were, and nobody over there knew what tricks
any one of them did, because I didn't want people
yelling and do stupid things. Just leave them
be. They gave me everything, so I just want them
to live their life out as comfortable as they
made mine. That's neat. That act was such a big
act at fairs. It was incredible how much you
got booked or how different it was, too. It was
really neat. Like I said, I mean I had this vision
of doing something I wanted to I just wanted
a whole jungle theme stage show Like I said with
the beginning and middle and an end We have people
I've at the museum here now we have air conditioning
problems. So the guys here fixing the air conditioning
So, you know because you look now at the landscape
today with acts and there's You know, the sea
lions are still the king of the, you know, one
of the only ones. But getting past that, there's,
especially post pandemic, there's not much. There's
really not, everything's the same just about.
There's no real new acts. I mean, you got filled
with these monkeys riding dogs is great, but
you know, what else is there? It's a shame there's
not acts like the Babi Lagoon or Wild West Show
or things like that, or just in short supply.
We had 27 birds. Parrots, macaws, and toucans
in the show was birds of pineapple paradise.
That was another one I had. Then I did a puppet
show, Broadway to Hollywood puppets. I didn't
perform them. I had other people do them that
I knew at one time or another had those skills
like the Wild West show. They were doing a whip
and rope act anyway, so I just put it the theme
to music, dressed them, costumed it. built the
stage. Bill Browning painted all of my equipment,
by the way, and not that nobody else is good
enough, but Bill was fantastic. The king of the
painters. All the 3D stuff. He did all the detail.
It was his stuff. I hope it's preserved somewhere.
If nothing else, just his line drawings and his
sketches. Guy was a brilliant, brilliant artist.
He just was. You still have Sharon Sandlofer
with The Wolves, I guess, still works. Oh, yeah,
Sharon Sandlofer with The Wolves, yeah. There's
not a lot of animal acts anymore. That's a big,
big show, Cousin Grumpy's Pork Chop Review. He's
good. And what's his name, Hansi and his wife
married to one of the Pages girls. They do a
big pseudo farm dog act show. There's a few,
but a lot of it's a strolling act now, you know?
And they were asking for the same money that
we got 15 years ago. So it's kind of a comes
full circle. But there's sort of nothing new
under the sun. It's the same stuff. It's a shame.
What do you see when you go to a fair now? What's
new? What's exciting? Not much. Everybody has
a circus. So -and -so family circus. So -and
-so thrill show. And it's a globe, a wheel. And
a comedy act. A hoop act. You know what I mean?
There's a hundred of those. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And then it's just, it's like a good game, you
know, the guys making money with a game on Tuesday,
on Thursday, it'd be 15 more games right next
door. Just like it, you know, that's very true.
That's very true. But it's, it's, and it's easier,
I guess, to do, but it's just a shame because
when you're looking for something different,
looking for something exciting, looking for something
new. Yeah. It's going to draw people. Yeah. you
know, there's just not a lot of, and that's why
the sea lions get booked so early. Oh, they're
probably booked into 27 -28. Yeah, just some
one -off dates, but. In fact, original Marco
Pilipitas, when they had the idea, they came
to me because we had the sea lions, and they
were buying the semi and the animals from a gentleman
that was on Ringling. He left them all here and
went back to Romania, actually, and it was a
toss -up if I was going to buy it or if they
were going to buy it, and I ended up helping
them get all their permits. because I had been
through that process already. So the Peters Brothers,
they had the shark show at that time, which was
wildly popular for a long time. And then they
went into the sea lion business, you know, and
then they've been quite successful. And now there's
three units. Those boys are no longer involved,
but you know, the folks that bought it now have,
I believe three units of it working. It's popular
and it's a great show. It's a great show because
show, it's a real show. And it's different. Yeah,
it's totally different. Totally different. Something
you don't see every single day. You know, it's
just it's got to be stuff out there. People hopefully
come into the industry that can do more things.
I think it would stop people like I had no inhibitions
about spending money, even if I didn't have it.
No, the Baboon Lagoon stage was $180 ,000 when
I could have you could do it on the back of a
truck. I mean. But it wasn't good enough. This
floor moved in and out, if you remember. The
whole stage opened before your eyes. Anyway,
it was what it was. Your costumes and all that
stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted the people
to feel like they got their money's worth when
they came through the gate. And in reality, the
show owners knew that. It was nice, it justified
their ticket prices, and especially on the still
dates. We made them a fan. It was us in the petting
zoo, maybe, or us and Bill and Morris with his
elephants. You know, we were, Wade booked us
a lot. Corky Powers booked us a lot. Jimmy Drew
booked us a lot. So Meyers booked us a lot. So
we were very fortunate because we live in Gibb
town and our association with the club certainly
didn't hurt, you know, because they were, they
saw it firsthand when we were building things
and they, and they wanted it, which was nice.
How did you gravitate to Gibtown? From the shows,
is that where you're at? Well, no, no. It goes
way back beyond before that. Years ago, I was
still clowning. I clown for a while. I worked
for Stu and Sarah Miller on their big magic show.
Merlin and Audrey Johnson were the promoters
for that. And it was a big magic stage show like
Thurston had back in the day in Blackstone. And
it was a little dated. for what it was, he went
way back, and that was his style of magic, tuxedo
and top. And he always talked about Gibson, too.
Well, make a long story longer, we were working
in Sarasota at the Fresno Circus of the year,
and we were looking around, staying in Sarasota.
My thing was, as a circus act, you had to live
in tropical, not tropical, Desoto Acres. in Sarasota.
It was all two acre home sites just outside of
downtown Sarasota. So just because of what, it's
like buying an Airstream trailer when everybody
else has one and you don't, you know what I mean?
You have a Shasta trailer. Those are trailers
before your time, Rod, but anyway. So that was
another dream was to always live in Sarasota.
And the fact we were buying a house from Pee
Wee Herman's parents, Paul Rubin's parents. They
had a house right where we were talking about.
And it was fabulous. And they just kept dropping
the price. We want circus people there. We want
circus people there. Paul would love it. Paul
grew up at Sailor Circus, which is a high school
in Sarasota. And that's where he's from, Sarasota,
Bradenton. And anyway, it didn't work out. And
then the mayor of Sarasota at the time, oh, just
buy the house. It's great. Put them in. They
had a big pool. Put them in the pool. I'll come
swimming with the sea lions because we were able
to swim with our sea lions. And the zoning guy
heard about that and made a not so nice, not
so nice threat that if we did anything, bought
anything in Sarasota County, you know, he'd run
us out on the rail and blah, blah, blah. He was
going to use us as a precedent. So it was two
nights later, we were working in Sarasota at
this annual circus down there. And a friend of
ours that lived up in Gibb town said, you know,
I got this place over here, it's for sale, blah,
blah, blah. And she was a circus, retired circus
person. And her and her husband had chimpanzees.
So that was a Saturday Sunday. We looked at the
property Monday morning. We made a deal with
the woman and Tuesday morning. We closed on it
was that quick Wow, so that was a humble beginnings
in Gibson 10. What year is that? What year? Oh
God, you would ask me that it was I think in
1980. OK. Was it 80? Yeah, it was an 80. I mean,
I've been in and out of here, but we just that
was my first place I bought here. And you really
dived into the community there. Oh, yeah, I loved
it. I loved it. I loved it. I love being here.
I love it. It's my people. You know what's nice
about here? Even what is false and there's many.
If something happens to me anywhere within 20
miles of here, there's somebody that will be
in my house in 15 minutes. As I would for them,
no matter it was a death or wedding of truck
broke or crop that broke, something needs to
be painted. I mean, we're a very self -sustaining
community. And as hard as it is to maintain that
because of all the encroachment of all the developers
now, it's just we're still here and we're still
legal. They don't really give out residential
show business zoning anymore, per se. It's not
even a zoning in the books. Now it's an overlay.
And they've watered it down quite a bit. So it
makes it a little more difficult to live here
legally. And I say legally because you don't
want to get run out by you know, any one of the
agencies that would come down on you. And then
with the animals, it was lucky because we had
USDA permits, Fish and Wildlife permits, and
we have what they call a CITES permit, which
was Convention for the International Trade of
Endangered Species. And that was because of the
sea lions at the time and the baboons. So once
you put that on your fence, local law enforcement
had no jurisdiction because now you have federally
funded and federally licensed facility. So once
I let all the people with animals know that,
which I did, we had a big town meeting at my
house, everybody went that way. And it's been
fine ever since. Even the carnival people. Mulligan's
still building wheels out here. Danny Menge,
for those who know Danny, he's still refurbishing
rides. Gene Chaffee's working the refurbishing
rides. So there's a lot of that going on. Bobby
Myers still has his shops open. It's just, Audie
Gillette moved his stuff down here from New England.
He's down here now. So people are still coming
back. Yeah. And we have the club. I mean, I was
president of the club. I was going to ask that.
What was your first association with the club?
How did you get involved with them? How did you
find it? Well, actually, to several people. Well,
Billy Rogers, for one, because he was the liaison
between the circus and the carnival at the time.
It was just we always heard about the Showman's
Club. You know, Sarasota has show folks of Sarasota.
But so my wife and I, my son was three or four
months old when we first came in here and we
joined the club. We were able to join and we
used to sit at the very back table at the back
of the room. That was the circus table. Don't
say nothing. Don't raise your hand and don't
do nothing. Just sit and listen and get your
two dollar dinner or whatever it was at the time.
But over time, people got to know me and I just.
I started volunteering for things, so I never
said no to somebody. I loved it, and I still
love it. It really is a magical place. I mean,
you know, from going there over the years when
Steve Ianni was president, because he's a good
friend, I learned a lot about the things that
went on. But that club, it's like its whole world.
You know, it really is. It's really neat. The
people that are involved, the relationships that
have gone on for so long. the way you come together
as a community, the way there's something for
everyone, you know, even, you know, the showman's
rest home or the people that live there, you
know, we saw, I saw it when the hurricane or
whatever it was, the storm came through this
year, you know, Teresa or whoever, you know,
had to evacuate because they were under your
care, you know, but you guys all took care of
you, evacuated everybody, made sure they were
okay during the storm and then got them back
there. And it's really, it's incredible what
goes on. And she does a great job with them.
They have a place to go, someone to complain
to, someone to pay the rent to, someone to look
after them. And that works really well. We lowered
some of the criteria because there was a lot
of people that were not quite old enough, but
they were on disability for whatever reasons.
So we opened the doors a little wider. Now I'm
happy to say we have a full house over there.
That's wonderful. And we have several actually
permanent trailer sites now that we've been renting
out, which is across the street, which that worked
out well. And I'm also an executive. A lot of
people camped during the trade show this year.
Yeah, I'm sorry? A lot of people camped during
the trade show this year, which is... Lots, more
than ever, more than ever. That's been great
because people can spend, they can come here
and they can stay here longer and go to Disney
or Bush or whatever they want to do and make
it a family vacation, which is what it used to
be, if you remember. You know, we have a five
-acre parking lot up the street here that there
was not even any parking left. You had to go
park even further and take a bus to get to the
train show. Well, you know, things have changed
over the years with the internet and all those
things going on now and the cost of trying to
build something and bring it here and then sell
it. Our world has changed quite a bit. Not for
the worse, it's just changed. And those of us
that will change with it will go on to succeed.
If you want to fight the change, it'll eat you
up and swallow you. And that's any business,
anywhere. That's anything. That's just life.
What I love about here, but I was going to also
mention that I'm the executive director of the
show People's Winter Quarters, which is right
over by Lazy Days on I -4. And we modeled it
after the showman's museum, excuse me, the showman's
SRV here. It's for people that have their own
equipment, but nowhere to live. And so we have
reduced rates for senior citizens. It's the same
model. You pay a percentage of your social security
card or a percentage of your disability where
you could afford to live there, buy groceries
and still have some dignity. So that's worked
out real well. I'm really happy with that. A
gentleman named Michael Rafflow is my manager
there. He lives on site. He's doing a great job.
He needs a plug. I think he does. He's a good
guy. He turned out to be really a good guy for
the park as well. He loves the place, and he
wants to see it prosper and grow. I just had
five more sites put up there. I had to fight
the county. Everybody said you couldn't do it,
but I found a way to double the occupancy, so
we have room for 15 trailers, which is great.
And I was president of the club twice. I mean,
here I go with my medals, right? So I was the
only only person me and my wife were ever to
ride through the club with an elephant. I will
say that You brought the circus there too, right
that night we did for sure big -time. Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah It was a that was a pretty wild night
and I love the place Like I said, you know, I
still do anything and everything I can for the
club. That's where my heart is that I still put
I do the Charity circus I do every year You're
the MC, right? 33 years, yeah. I do it all, I
produce it. I book all the acts, procure the
tent, the equipment, all of that. Yep. And I
MC it. I do a little homestyle MC. And before
I bring in the actual ringmaster, I always have
a guest ringmaster. And most guys want to perform
here. The audience is so great, it just is. You
can go to Sarasota and have the exact same show.
And you have half the audience is retired circus
people that just knocking and cut everybody's
strokes. You know, it's just a thing of the business,
of the entertainment business. And it goes through
all the entertainment business, not just the
circus. There's so much jealousy. People don't
realize that happened in Hollywood, on TV, wherever
you go, because it's all about egos. And get
down. The ego is how much money do you have?
You know, it's how big is your house trailer,
you know? It's incredible what you guys do there.
I mean, there's just so many activities and so
many fundraising activities and so much good
you do on a daily basis with things. Because
even the meals like you described before, you
could eat for $2 or whatever else. I mean, that's
a real blessing to so many people who come off
the road and maybe don't have a lot of money.
They get fed cheaply at the club with a nutritious
meal, home cooked or whatever. One of my things
when I was president both times was to always
include the people who felt left out. You know,
there's a whole section of people that they don't
have the money to spend every night. They can't
contribute to every fundraiser. They just can't.
But I've always included them in some kind of
contest or door prize winnings or something like
that. Or I'd always mention them from the diocese.
So and so tonight, you know, just to make them
feel that if $25 at the time wasn't wasted, that
they're still part of the club. And those are
the people that you call them for anything, they'll
be right there because you recognize them. And
that's all anybody wants is just to be recognized
when it's all said and done. But that's kind
of like how that show, that place was founded,
and correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, you
had the club in Tampa that was for the show owners,
you know, their club, and then the people that
were sort of left out, the independents, concessionaires,
all those people decided to do their own club,
right, and give town and look who's left standing.
sideshow people. We never precluded any of them
from being part of the book. And that's long
before me. Listen, they founded the town for
Grand Halal. They really did. I mean, Mays Huck
was here long before Jeannie and Al Tumaney.
However, when Jeannie and Al moved here, they
gave a safe haven for all the sideshow people,
all the oddities or whatever. I don't use the
word freaks. They don't mind it, but I don't
use it. And they felt that Priscilla didn't have
to shave here. She could be herself. Emmett could
be himself. A lot of the little people, nobody
looked twice at them. They were just part of
the fabric of the town. Styles? They're all gone.
Most of them are gone. And you can watch the
Discovery Channel now and see the girl with two
heads, the lady with no legs, the kid with no
arm. I mean, it's all over TV anymore. So people
didn't kill the sideshow. TV did. Movies did.
Yeah, it's quite the colorful history and they,
you know, you try to preserve that quite a bit
too. Oh, yeah, and we do. At the museum here
we have a tribute to every type of outdoor entertainment
that there is. You know, we have Wild West shows.
We have minstrel shows. We have the biggest carnivals
and the smallest carnivals. We have circus acts.
We have different circus shows that are recognized
in here. So this is a fabulous melting pot of
a museum. It really is. And I have to say, Dr.
Rivera did an outstanding job with the exhibits
and everything. He excelled in that. He was an
artist. I don't know if anybody realized what
a brilliant artist that he was. A true -to -life
artist. And his thing was to paint train shows
with steam locomotives and smoke billowing out.
The guy was a brilliant man. He had a great eye.
He really did. I don't think many people realized
that. The exhibits look good there. They definitely
look good. So how did you come to be asked or
be offered the opportunity to curate the museum?
How did that come about? Well, actually, I'm
not so much a curator as I am executive directors.
Executive director, OK. Yeah, it's kind of two
different hats. Where Doc is really a curator
of the exhibit. And I'm more the director of
trying to put people through the doors now and
just. do some changes here, cosmetic changes
to the building and making it more accessible
to the public, more entertaining even from the
outside, put a new spin on the look of it. Otherwise
it looks like an empty warehouse. And there was
a reason for behind that at the time. People
were trying to downplay the sideshow aspect of
it when in fact that's what the public basically
wants to see. They want to feel that. And the
girl shows and the reviews. You know, I get a
kick out of doing the tours just because I can
tell everybody the names of the people that are
being displayed on the stages, you know, in wax
or mannequin forms. And I had a relationship
with most of those people, so it's kind of neat.
And the people here that come here love it. They
absolutely love it. It's nothing what they expected.
Now I'm working on a group of women that are
Sun City, retired ladies that are going to come
in and just do light housekeeping, dusting and
volunteer. You know, you buy them a lunch and
you make them feel like they have a purpose.
You know, they can come out. Like if they're
too old to work in the hospital, they can certainly
work here. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So what
are some of your plans for the museum for the
future? And, you know, where do you see it going?
Well, I just see it getting bigger. and better.
We already have plans in the works. We're waiting
on the permits. We're adding another extension
to the back of the building to basically put
the wagons from sitting outside or just disintegrating.
So we're going to try to have that and have a
restoration building. Similar to the one that
many people might not be familiar with, Circus
World Museum in Baraboo, but they have a whole
volunteer -based working repair shop and restorative
demonstrations, how they restored circus wagons,
circus wheels. So it's, we don't have that kind
of base here yet. You know, there's a whole group
of people called Circus Fans of America, and
what they are is they're groupies for the circus.
And they've done a tremendous, a lot of good
backs behind the scenes, you know, they help
people get to learn the math, they know this,
they do that. Anybody needs to ride somewhere,
but they also volunteer at the museum, and it's
a big workforce up at that museum. And just simple
things. They'll paint the railings, paint fences,
just keep the place clean and spruced up. And
that's my goal here is to keep it user -friendly,
spruced up. I want to put a few more hands -on
exhibits in here. There's not a whole lot for
small children to do here. So there's some things
I like to implement and get that started over
time. I have a lot of ideas. Is there any thought
to actually doing some live shows, whether it's
sword swallowing or some of the... Well, maybe
on a special occasion, not on a regular basis,
but maybe if I have a big enough group that would
be interested in that. Certainly I have a go
-to person here in town, which he'd be more than
happy to do it. So it'd be great. And you asked
me about how I was asked. I've been on the committee
forever. It just came about, you know, I've always
been the official, unofficial spokesman for the
club. You know, I do all the TV, the radio, whatever
has to be done, or I meet with the commissioners,
or I go downtown zoning and different things
on behalf of the club. So it just kind of, it
came to me after Doc passed away, they needed
somebody to do it. Well, they thought they had
somebody, two people actually, and then for whatever
reasons, they both backed out on the 11th hour
of coming down. So they found themselves without
a director here. Tom Galen, who is the vice president
of the Museum Corporation, along with Tom I.
Arnold and several other people, Jim Fredrickson
and some other, David Starkey. I'm trying to
go down the list and I'll leave people out. I
don't mean to, but. The usual suspects. Jim Elliott.
Jim Elliott's been a big, big booster. They kind
of got together when they discussed it, and they
asked me if I would be interested. And I said,
OK, let me think about it. And they said, no,
we want you. And especially Tom Galen pushed
me in. He lied and cajoled to me. He wrestled
you. You know him. Don't get too close to him.
He can't help it. Old habits. He just wants to
put you in the headlock and throw you down. He's
from Maryland. I'm from Virginia. Don't call
him Little. No. I made that mistake. He accepted
the word bastard, but he didn't want the little
part of it. He's from Maryland, and I live in
Virginia now. He's big in the wrestling community.
I know some people that were in wrestling, and
they knew him. And, of course, I knew him from
somewhere else, but yeah, he's... Yeah, no, seriously,
he's... He was inductee in the Ring of Fame,
their Hall of Fame, and he's done quite a bit.
He was president of the whole Wrestling Association
of North America for 10 or 11 years. I mean,
he's done a lot, an awful lot. And that's a whole
side that most people don't know about him, you
know? That's what I'm fascinated by, the other
sides of people, what they do outside. I don't
want to get knocked off the chair. So they've
tasked you with with because because getting
the word out about it and explaining why it's
such a great time to go there is really that's
sort of the hard part right because you got to
put yourself in the general public shoes and
Think about why do I want to go there? Why do
I want to make the trek to exactly? And then
what is there to see that's gonna interest me?
I've even just gotten a rebranding the whole
place. It's no longer the International Independence
Showman's Association, Carnival Museum, or Museum
of the Carp, or whatever it was. It was like
it went on forever. You couldn't even put that
on the business card. Hi, how do they answer
the phone that way? Well, they don't. It was
long telephone answering things. Yeah, but the
public has no idea what a showman's museum is.
We all know, if you're in the business, any one
of our businesses, you know what a showman is.
But the public has no clue. But that happens
with everything when you're doing a fair or something
like that. We used to talk with the fair manager
on a podcast not too long ago. And we'll do things
like, oh, go to gate 12. I don't know what gate
12 is. I've never been to this place before.
I have no idea. Or go by the thing over there.
And I was like, what's that? You got to put yourself
in the general. They don't know that stuff. And
you know where you're living. You're there all
the time. So you just assume. But you've got
to really divorce yourself of all that. when
you used to have to write instructions on how
to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, you
know, like in school and, you know, people would
write it down and then they'd mess it up because
the instructions would be so bad. You got to
really pretend you know nothing and start from
the beginning and move on up. Yep, very true.
So now we will be known as the Carnival World
Museum. OK, simple to the point. It tells the
public who we what we are. You know, all the
other accolades is all wonderful and whatever.
But that's who we are now. We're the Carnival
World Museum. That's the official name. Is that
your phone? No. No. It's your phone. I apologize.
They're all calling you already. I've been on
call. So the Carnival World Museum. I think that's
a good name for it. And when are you open right
now? Like just on the weekend still? Yep, well,
all our hours now, we have formal hours. They're
Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, 12 to 5.
We have guided tours. I'm not locked into how
many or what size the groups have to be. It would
be nice to have 10 or more, but if they're not,
they're not. And with that, I just like them
to call ahead at least a week ahead or so to
make sure that I or somebody's here to do the
tour. And we're at 69, 38. Riverview Drive, Riverview,
Florida, 33578. However, it's still the heart
of Gibb town. That's right. Can't miss it. You
have a wonderful collection, too, because I was
up there during the show a few weeks ago. How
many ABs do you have there? You have every one
from... I think there's one copy from every year
it's ever been published as amusement business.
Before that, it was the billboard. and we have
some of those too. Is that for research or what
are those there for? Can you look through those
or what's the deal? Well, it's just to keep them,
show the history, number one. For a while, Jim
Elliott was going through the older ones and
he was writing what happened a particular day,
like today's March 25th. He would say, today,
March 25th, 1931, you know, then this is what
happened. And he'd name the shows or what happened
or train wrecks or whatever. It was a very neat
thing that he did, but he stopped doing it. He
had some health issues, and he just stopped doing
it. But they're up there for anybody. They're
for research. They answer your question shortly.
Yeah, I was trying to go look at them, but it
said, don't touch. So I was nervous to pick one
up. I'm fascinated by those old ABs. I love to
read through them. People don't realize, and
even people here don't realize, any of that paper
or artifacts have to be handled with white gloves.
Yeah. It really should be put in acid -free containers
of some kind to preserve the paper. The paper
is very delicate, as you well know. So that's
why they're a little bit touchy about touching
the actual newspaper, unless one of us is there
with you, just to help you through it. Instead
of just flipping through pages. You'd be surprised
how many people rip stuff out because they see
their great -grandfather's name on it, so they
just rip it out. Like a phone number, you need
one number, you take the whole damn page. Yeah,
just, you know, it's fascinating. And of course,
you know, sort of being a, you know, a child
of, I'm talking about a music warehouse and carnival
warehouse, you know, down that line from that,
it's fascinating to see how things were, you
know, just to inform myself about, you know,
think about how things were reported then. Yeah,
you know how we should be doing things now. It's
it's really uh, I love looking through the old
stuff because it's it's fascinating to read and
to see how things were Were reported and and
you know, what was important back then and what's
important now and all the history is fascinating
to me We have a ride manual for almost every
ride manufactured up until about five years ago
That we have manuals a complete a complete library
of ride manuals. Well maybe some guy needs to
know about that. Some guy local wants to know,
you know, what kind of pin to use or what kind
of RPMs on the motors or whatever the original
stats called for, you know. I donated years and
years ago, a friend of mine was an avid collector
and he also found a way to endear himself to
some older people and got their collections as
well, but I have... loosely finest. You talked
about upstairs and we call it the library. They're
full of complete history of each show in photographs.
The train into town, the train unloading, what
cars had what, you know. Take those big railroad
shows, you know. They carried a lot of stuff
that trucks couldn't carry. You know, now it's
all streamlined. Yes, they can. You know, you
have semis and all these kind of equipment out
of movement. Back then you had a Chevy C20, you
know what I mean? single -axle tractor, gas tractor,
try to go up Mount Eagle with a merry -go -round
or a ferris wheel and take your day and a half
without burning the truck up. So those guys,
all those people were pioneers. They just were.
And it's with any of our outdoor entertainment.
I mean, minstrel shows are a thing of the past.
But there was a time when they traveled by train.
I know several descendants of some of the biggest
Dockstead is minstrels and stuff like that that
are still alive to grandchildren, great grandchildren.
And it's amazing the history of that trying to
move all of that. So yeah, it's it's I read the
you know, there's a few good books out like the
Concord book I just read by John Thurston was
a fascinating book to read about the history.
And you know, I know there's some carnival books
out there and some of them are decent, but some
of them, you know, I mean, it was a fan writing
it. It was not really a professional writer,
so it lacks a little bit. Whereas Thurston's
book was really well done. He's a, you know,
professional writer and there needs to be more
of that because... Joe McKinnon's books, his
books, they're an encyclopedia of our business,
really. And it's amazing how much detail he goes
in or leaves out of certain subjects, but you
know what he's saying at the same time. You can
read right along with him and nobody's telling
you. His books are great. There's a lot of good
books. Then you have a lot of schlock, like Water
for the Elephants. What a disgrace. And it became
a bestseller. Then a bigger disgrace, it became
a movie. And then a bigger Dale in the Coffin,
and now it's a Broadway show. It's a schlock
story with schlock. It's just terrible. It's
just terrible. And it's like all these stupid
books are written. I'm murdered by a clown on
the sideshow under the boardwalk by the girls
show. Come on. It's sensualism. It's what the
public thinks we are. Well, that's what I was
kind of getting at with you at the circus at
the beginning is, you know, for a kid to run
away with a circus like that, you know, people's
in their minds must dredge up all kinds of horrible
things that might have happened to you during
it. But all in all, you learned a lot. You got
a career. People taught you. People took interest
in you and made sure you were safe, I guess,
to a certain extent. coddle you, I'm sure, but
they, you know, I'm sure if you got in a fight
or an outsider trying to do something to you,
they'd be there to protect you, right? I mean,
it was, it was like joining a family in a way,
right? Well, exactly. It's, in any of our industries,
it's, it's an extended family, but they don't
have so much anymore. I remember a time when
the wheel went out and everybody jumped underneath
somebody's awning and sat for another two or
three hours drinking a beer, telling stories,
lying to each other, whatever. Just, Jackpotting,
you know what I mean? We call it jackpotting
in the circus. And it was great. Now these young
kids, the wheel goes down, they can't get to
the trailer fast enough and lock the door, count
their money and go to bed or whatever they do,
I don't know. The lifestyle part of it is left
to us older people. Not that I'm old, but I'm
from that generation that still remembers that.
And that's why the club is so important. You
go back to that full circle. When it comes down
to it, we are really all we have. You're really
the last club. I mean, people will argue with
me all the time as I say this, but you're really
the true last club left. Because yes, there's
clubs and they have a meeting and they go somewhere
once a month or whatever else. But to have a
club that's really like a place to go every day.
It's a haven. It's a haven. You know. It's the
camaraderie, even with people that have no use
for each other. In the case of a problem, they
still come and lend a hand. You know what I mean?
That nobody is lingering. Yes, there's a lot
of backbiting. It's all of that with any club
and any group of people. But when it comes right
down to it, we are who we are. We are all we
have. We don't rely on the outside, really, for
a whole lot. And we never have. And in this particular
club, we've let everybody in you know anybody
who had anything to do with the business whether
you were just a ride guy or you know a ticket
ticket everybody was welcome at this club and
if you wanted to persevere and volunteer and
volunteer even feel like you're not wanted believe
me because i've been to it eventually someone
will say you know you're not he's not so bad
guy what you call that guy see if he wants to
come and that's how it starts and that's why
i love It's because the club is let in. I mean,
you have open arms, even with other organizations
like the OBA has so many things going on during
the trade show week and, you know, Nika, they
kind of got their own. Well, they've all they've
all piggybacked off our club. Right. And that's
that's the, you know, because, you know, even
on an editorial basis, like, you know, one of
my reporters kept writing Florida Week, Florida
Week. I said, what does that mean? Yes. Oh, you
know, it's all because they're trying to It's
the club and the trade show and then everything
else is an add -on, is an ancillary to it. The
reason people are there is for the trade show.
They're not there for all that other stuff. I
mean, it's nice that it's there and it's great
that everybody works together, but it's the trade
show that draws the people and it's the trade
show that's the lifeblood. Not to be politically
incorrect or condescending, but several groups
were adamant about not following our dates. Yeah.
And a bit too many ass. So the proof is in the
pudding. The proof is in the pudding. We are
who we are. People come here. It's the camaraderie
here. The other things are business or maybe
even political. But the club was never about
that. It was always about just coming down, having
a good time. And if you made a deal, you made
a deal. If you can hear over the bands and make
a deal, then you made a deal. If there's a reason
some of those organizations have their big annual
meetings, During the trade show because people
are there because otherwise if they had an annual
meeting they get four people, you know that you
know And we've tried more than once to have incorporate
those other groups Without picking out one I
was instrumental. I rebuilt that whole back building
in the back that we announced the carousel at
the time I had you well the chandeliers is that
big flowered centerpieces of big palm trees and
it was a very very a beachy Florida room, it
was. They can have their meetings there and have
more room there and have, but they don't, you
know, they do a few smaller meetings here and
there, but by and large, you know, NICA has their
big thing at there, and OABA has their big thing
down there, and NASA has their big thing down
there, when they could be using our facility,
not a hotel. but there's a hotel right around
the corner, right behind the Walmart that they
could be using. Shelby Royal, God bless her,
one time we had a meeting years and years and
years ago. We had to get these rooms before OABA
does because they were really encroaching on
it. There was a lot of animosity a lot back in
the day with different people, different leaderships.
And she called to book the whole whatever the
name of that motel is up there, whatever it is.
Sable Park? Yeah, Sable Park. They said, I'm
sorry, you were a day late. They just booked
out 80 rooms or whatever it was. So I have to
give her credit. She jumped right up and she
went right to the phones trying to do it just
so we can sell back the rooms to them, you know?
It never happened. It never happened. So I look
forward to the day where we can really be more
cohesive, you know, even IAPA. You know, it's
funny, everybody knocked IAPA, IAPA, they're
hurting our trade show. Well, you know, there's
certain show owners that was that was screaming
that on one side of the face and going to buy
their rights over at IAPA. And it's mostly economics
because you have a ride to live in to March or
April or May instead of wait till the end of
the season to get it. So it just makes good business
sense. But all of that could be cohesive as well.
We all go there. All of us go there. Teresa goes
down, representing the trade show, and she gets
five or six people, this year she had about 10
new vendors come to the trade show. I've gotten
a few before. I talk to them. When I run across
one, I say, you could do great over and give
10 at the Carnival trade show. Yeah, you guys
are there. Yeah, you do the same thing. You're
pumping up too, which is wonderful. Always, yeah.
Well, I hope this is serving your purpose. I
hope I was not a deadbeat. What a boring interview,
gosh, I fell asleep. Now it's fascinating. I'm
so thankful for all the stuff you do and have
done and will continue to do for the industry
and the trade show. And I think you can make
that museum a great place because it's a great,
and all that you've done for the club over the
years, it's an amazing thing. And what a storied
history you had. Half, I shouldn't say had, you
know, done. Do something new every other day.
I hope so, and I hope, like I said, I can bring
this whole venture into a whole new dimension,
you know what I mean? I think a few live acts
or doing something would really add to it a little
bit, maybe on certain weekends, just small things,
you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just chipping, chipping.
Going swallower, having somebody in there, doing
something live would be cool. Well, when you
come down, lunch is on me. Well, I appreciate
it. I have an expense account. Thanks so much
for coming on. I really appreciate it. Best of
luck to you. And if we can help or do anything
for you, please reach out. We're always ready,
willing, and able. I think I'll need some website
help. With some website help. OK, I'll call Matt.
So anyway, Ron, it was a pleasure. I'm thrilled
that you asked me. I hope I was a pleasant substitute.
I truly do. Absolutely. And heal up that arm
fast. I will. I will. Thanks for all the exposure
you've given us today here at the museum. Anytime.
It's our pleasure. Thanks for all you do. Be
safe. Goodbye. This podcast is brought to you
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