WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.080 Please know that this episode contains references 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:07.139 to sensitive subject matter. Welcome to Law Syrup, 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:09.160 the show where we talk with special guests about 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:12.199 hot topics in Canadian law. This podcast is a 00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:14.039 co -production with the Ontario Justice Education 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:17.480 Network, also known as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman 00:00:17.480 --> 00:00:26.390 Wong. Let's tap it. Before we begin, please know 00:00:26.390 --> 00:00:28.510 that this show is not intended to be legal advice 00:00:28.510 --> 00:00:30.829 or a replacement for a legal representative. 00:00:32.310 --> 00:00:35.070 Hi everyone, Happy New Year and welcome to Law 00:00:35.070 --> 00:00:37.689 Syrup. Today, you'll hear my discussion with 00:00:37.689 --> 00:00:41.250 Megan Cunningham. Megan is not only a Crown Prosecutor, 00:00:41.250 --> 00:00:43.530 but she is also the current Chair of the Ministry 00:00:43.530 --> 00:00:45.670 of the Attorney General's Sexual Violence Advisory 00:00:45.670 --> 00:00:48.149 Group, and she is a highly requested speaker. 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:51.380 Recently, Megan was one of the prosecutors on 00:00:51.380 --> 00:00:53.780 the Hockey Canada trial that has been much covered 00:00:53.780 --> 00:00:56.780 in Canadian and international news. Together, 00:00:57.000 --> 00:00:58.840 we talk about her beginnings as a Crown attorney, 00:00:59.140 --> 00:01:01.399 how she balances work life and the emotional 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:04.280 aspects of her cases with her life at home, and 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:06.379 misconceptions the public may have about criminal 00:01:06.379 --> 00:01:09.659 court, the Hockey Canada case, and the role of 00:01:09.659 --> 00:01:12.329 Crown attorneys. Now, as a disclaimer, Megan 00:01:12.329 --> 00:01:14.469 did not speak to me today as a representative 00:01:14.469 --> 00:01:16.849 of the Ministry of the Attorney General, but 00:01:16.849 --> 00:01:18.950 rather sharing her own personal thoughts and 00:01:18.950 --> 00:01:21.549 reflections. So nothing she says here should 00:01:21.549 --> 00:01:23.870 be taken as the words of the ministry itself. 00:01:24.469 --> 00:01:26.870 With that being said, here's our discussion. 00:01:28.609 --> 00:01:30.829 All right, so Megan, thank you so much for joining 00:01:30.829 --> 00:01:33.370 us today. How are you? I'm doing very well, thanks. 00:01:33.510 --> 00:01:35.650 Thanks for having me. Yes, it's so exciting to 00:01:35.650 --> 00:01:38.150 speak to you. How are you enjoying the weather 00:01:38.150 --> 00:01:41.760 outside? It's a lot warmer today than it has 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:44.079 been in the past, so I'll take it. You know what? 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:46.519 Like yesterday, there was freezing rain. I wasn't 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:48.560 very happy. Right now, we're in that moment where 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.140 it's after Christmas. And typically, I enjoy 00:01:51.140 --> 00:01:54.060 snow for Christmas because it fits the season. 00:01:54.099 --> 00:01:56.099 But now, everything is just turning to slush. 00:01:56.900 --> 00:01:59.079 But hey, the days are getting longer, so that's 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:02.120 great. Yeah, I don't quite feel that yet, but 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:05.620 I know it is objectively true. Yeah, so just 00:02:05.620 --> 00:02:08.400 waiting for the daylight to come back and I can 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:11.879 stop taking my vitamin D supplements. That would 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:13.979 be nice. Yes, but let's just jump right into 00:02:13.979 --> 00:02:15.599 our discussion. Thank you so much for joining 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:17.599 us. We're so looking forward to hearing from 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:20.460 you about your own career and also about the 00:02:20.460 --> 00:02:22.699 cases that you've handled, particularly the Hockey 00:02:22.699 --> 00:02:25.599 Canada case that's been on the top of many people's 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:28.460 minds. So let's start at the very beginning. 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:31.819 Why the law? And I know you went to uOttawa to 00:02:31.819 --> 00:02:34.539 do the common law program. Do you remember when 00:02:34.539 --> 00:02:36.780 you first started thinking about a career in 00:02:36.780 --> 00:02:41.300 law? Well... Not exactly, to be honest. I mean, 00:02:41.319 --> 00:02:44.620 I would say that I was always interested in justice 00:02:44.620 --> 00:02:48.560 issues, but not necessarily the law or legal 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:52.520 issues. You know, in high school and, you know, 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.919 undergrad, I was particularly interested in social 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:59.699 justice. But at that time, I really thought I 00:02:59.699 --> 00:03:02.139 wanted to be a doctor. That really was where 00:03:02.139 --> 00:03:05.979 I was sort of headed. And I was in the Artsci 00:03:05.979 --> 00:03:09.599 program at McMaster for undergrad. And I did 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:13.259 my undergraduate thesis on media representations 00:03:13.259 --> 00:03:19.060 of conjoined twin separations. Yeah. And... You 00:03:19.060 --> 00:03:23.259 know, what really fascinated me about that area 00:03:23.259 --> 00:03:28.659 was just how intertwined these sort of medical, 00:03:28.939 --> 00:03:33.659 social, cultural sort of gender decisions were 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:36.400 in that particular case. And I think where I 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:40.300 ultimately kind of landed on this was this overarching 00:03:40.300 --> 00:03:44.050 question about like. why was why were some of 00:03:44.050 --> 00:03:46.530 these decisions that were made medical decisions 00:03:46.530 --> 00:03:49.590 like who decided that doctors you know get to 00:03:49.590 --> 00:03:52.479 make some of these decisions and so you know, 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.400 when I finished my undergrad, I did really think 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.340 that I was interested in sort of medical ethics. 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:00.740 And I thought I still might go to medical school. 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:03.919 But I also thought that law school might be a 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:06.520 good place to sort of explore some of these ethics 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:09.099 and policy questions that I had. So I wasn't, 00:04:09.099 --> 00:04:11.819 when I went to law school, it wasn't really necessarily 00:04:11.819 --> 00:04:16.240 with a career in law in mind. But that was sort 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.399 of my path to getting to law school. you know 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:21.480 that's super interesting because originally when 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:23.699 i was in elementary school i always thought i 00:04:23.699 --> 00:04:29.040 would be a doctor um as most children do um and 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:32.439 actually in careers class we had this website 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:34.560 where you do a quiz to see what career suits 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.399 you best it was like i call career cruising or 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:38.990 something like that And I did the quiz and the 00:04:38.990 --> 00:04:41.850 number one choice for me was bioethicist. Okay, 00:04:41.970 --> 00:04:44.870 interesting. Kind of related to what you were 00:04:44.870 --> 00:04:47.850 thinking about. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. 00:04:47.990 --> 00:04:49.910 And I think the second one was actually judge. 00:04:50.129 --> 00:04:52.769 And I was like, oh, they're very interesting 00:04:52.769 --> 00:04:56.550 results. But eventually I went to high school. 00:04:56.709 --> 00:04:59.110 During high school, I realized that science was 00:04:59.110 --> 00:05:03.470 not my thing. But I was like, hey, I like social 00:05:03.470 --> 00:05:05.730 justice. I like to read and write. So, you know, 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:08.730 law sounds pretty good. Yeah. You know, I mean, 00:05:08.730 --> 00:05:11.329 there's a lot more overlap than than people might 00:05:11.329 --> 00:05:15.050 think, really, between law and medicine and science. 00:05:15.129 --> 00:05:18.550 So, yeah. So when you went to law school, did 00:05:18.550 --> 00:05:20.670 you know you wanted to do criminal law in particular? 00:05:21.310 --> 00:05:25.149 No, not at all. So I, you know, started law school, 00:05:25.209 --> 00:05:28.540 not. thinking about criminal law at all, thinking 00:05:28.540 --> 00:05:30.959 more about medical ethics and sort of policy. 00:05:31.540 --> 00:05:36.339 I didn't plan on being a litigator at all necessarily. 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.040 And then what happened was I sort of fell in 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:43.379 love with criminal law in first year. It was 00:05:43.379 --> 00:05:48.040 sort of my first year crim law class. It was 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.480 just kind of, you know, I felt like my eyes were 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:56.610 just sort of opened. you know, the issues are 00:05:56.610 --> 00:06:01.720 so interesting. You know, they make... television 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.420 shows and movies about, you know, criminal law 00:06:04.420 --> 00:06:06.959 and trials and things like that because they're 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.680 interesting, right? And because they matter, 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.620 you know, like these cases, you know, have that 00:06:12.620 --> 00:06:16.259 intersection of being fascinating, being important, 00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:19.680 mattering for everyone involved, right? The stakes 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.459 are so high for victims of crime, for those accused 00:06:23.459 --> 00:06:28.079 of crime. And so, you know, criminal law quickly 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:32.560 became sort of my primary area of interest, you 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:36.720 know, once I started law school. But even once 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.420 I sort of discovered that criminal law was what 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:43.139 most interested me, I wouldn't say I was necessarily 00:06:43.139 --> 00:06:48.259 leaning towards being a crown right away. And, 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:51.480 you know, I think my experience in law school 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.100 is that there was very much the sense that the 00:06:56.100 --> 00:07:00.500 criminal justice system pits the vulnerable average 00:07:00.500 --> 00:07:04.360 person against the sort of soulless machine of 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:07.240 the state. And there was this sense that the 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:10.000 sort of the honorable work is defending accused 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.120 persons against the state, not being sort of 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:16.600 a cog in that soulless machine of the state. 00:07:17.139 --> 00:07:21.100 And so that was sort of where, you know, my sort 00:07:21.100 --> 00:07:24.459 of head was at, you know, in law school. You 00:07:24.459 --> 00:07:27.720 know, and I think there's no question that you 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:31.199 know, being a defense lawyer is honorable work 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:34.519 and defense lawyers play a critical role, you 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.939 know, in the criminal justice system. But when 00:07:37.939 --> 00:07:40.100 it came time to sort of apply for articling positions, 00:07:40.379 --> 00:07:43.240 I chose to article with the Crown instead of 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.259 a defense firm. primarily because I thought I 00:07:47.259 --> 00:07:49.379 would get exposed to a broader range of work 00:07:49.379 --> 00:07:51.519 there and I might get, you know, to take on more 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.800 responsibility early on. But I do remember that 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.300 during my articling interview, I was asked, where 00:07:58.300 --> 00:08:00.319 do you see yourself, you know, 10 years from 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.720 now? And I said, I think probably doing defense 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.699 work. Oh, really? Because that's more philosophically 00:08:06.699 --> 00:08:10.160 aligned with my views. And the person who was 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.660 interviewing me said, you're going to change 00:08:12.660 --> 00:08:17.300 your mind. And I said, I don't think so. But 00:08:17.300 --> 00:08:20.060 of course, you know, turns out she was completely 00:08:20.060 --> 00:08:22.620 right. I did change my mind. I did not really 00:08:22.620 --> 00:08:26.240 have a sense of what crown work was, I think, 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:30.920 when I was in law school. And so, yeah, once 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.759 I sort of discovered what it was, what it involved, 00:08:34.299 --> 00:08:37.620 it turns out it was a really great fit for me. 00:08:38.250 --> 00:08:40.210 So you mentioned that one person. Were there 00:08:40.210 --> 00:08:43.970 any other specifically impactful cases that kind 00:08:43.970 --> 00:08:46.169 of encouraged you to step into the world of criminal 00:08:46.169 --> 00:08:50.710 law? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the parts 00:08:50.710 --> 00:08:55.250 of law school that really interested me, and 00:08:55.250 --> 00:08:57.210 in particular, as it relates to criminal law, 00:08:57.250 --> 00:09:00.779 were these sort of this sense of this kind of 00:09:00.779 --> 00:09:04.860 feedback loop between the law and our sort of 00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:08.539 social values and structures, right? This idea 00:09:08.539 --> 00:09:13.340 of how, you know, legal systems both impact and 00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:17.019 are impacted by, you know, existing power structures 00:09:17.019 --> 00:09:20.120 and the systems that we rely on. And so, you 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:23.559 know, in particular, I was interested in how, 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:29.059 you know, the laws and our legal processes reflect 00:09:29.059 --> 00:09:33.220 and entrench sexist and racist attitudes and 00:09:33.220 --> 00:09:37.000 ideals. And so there were two cases in particular 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.440 that really kind of stand out to me. So the first 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:44.100 is, it's a case called R. and Dudley and Stevens. 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:48.340 It's a case from 1884, and it involves high seas 00:09:48.340 --> 00:09:51.720 cannibalism. Oh, I have never heard of that one. 00:09:53.179 --> 00:09:55.899 You know, it doesn't come up, I think, ever except 00:09:55.899 --> 00:10:00.980 in law school. What happened was some sailors 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:05.990 killed and ate a cabin boy to survive. And, you 00:10:05.990 --> 00:10:08.669 know, it engaged the defense of necessity and 00:10:08.669 --> 00:10:12.610 it kind of, you know, engages some of those questions 00:10:12.610 --> 00:10:14.529 that I was already really kind of struggling 00:10:14.529 --> 00:10:17.769 with. You know, who gets to make these decisions 00:10:17.769 --> 00:10:19.929 and sort of the trolley problem, right? Is it 00:10:19.929 --> 00:10:22.250 better to kill one person for the good of many 00:10:22.250 --> 00:10:27.470 or do nothing but let many people die? And then, 00:10:27.590 --> 00:10:31.029 you know, sort of that question of like. Why 00:10:31.029 --> 00:10:33.870 was it the cabin boy that had to die, you know, 00:10:33.909 --> 00:10:36.809 so that everyone else could live? Who made that 00:10:36.809 --> 00:10:40.110 decision? So that case, you know, I think was 00:10:40.110 --> 00:10:42.850 maybe one of the earliest ones that really stuck 00:10:42.850 --> 00:10:48.190 with me. The second case, I think, you know, 00:10:48.190 --> 00:10:51.409 maybe hits a little closer to home and it's the 00:10:51.409 --> 00:10:55.009 case of Jane Doe. who sued the Toronto Police 00:10:55.009 --> 00:10:58.090 for negligence and for violating her charter 00:10:58.090 --> 00:11:00.769 right, security of the person, and her equality 00:11:00.769 --> 00:11:05.169 right under section 15 of the charter. And of 00:11:05.169 --> 00:11:07.509 course Jane Doe was sexually assaulted after 00:11:07.509 --> 00:11:10.190 a man used her balcony to break into her apartment. 00:11:10.289 --> 00:11:15.570 I think this was in 1985 or 1986. And she wasn't 00:11:15.570 --> 00:11:18.769 the first. person to have been sexually assaulted 00:11:18.769 --> 00:11:21.669 by this man. I think she was the fifth person 00:11:21.669 --> 00:11:25.049 to be sexually assaulted by the same person. 00:11:25.129 --> 00:11:28.309 He came to be known as the balcony rapist. And 00:11:28.309 --> 00:11:31.190 even though police knew that there was a serial 00:11:31.190 --> 00:11:33.529 predator targeting women in this particular neighborhood, 00:11:33.750 --> 00:11:36.470 they made a deliberate choice not to warn the 00:11:36.470 --> 00:11:39.210 public because they didn't want to tip him off. 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.759 So they wanted to catch him. And so Jane Doe 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:47.019 successfully sued the Toronto police. I think 00:11:47.019 --> 00:11:52.480 her lawsuit was concluded in 1998. And she came 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.779 and spoke to my law class when I was in first 00:11:54.779 --> 00:11:58.779 year, and that was 1999. So it was incredibly 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:02.840 impactful. I remember her speaking about how 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:06.110 she felt like she was used as bait. by the police, 00:12:06.210 --> 00:12:11.250 how sort of dehumanizing that was. And I remember 00:12:11.250 --> 00:12:14.730 really being struck by this sort of this tension. 00:12:14.929 --> 00:12:17.889 I mean, the police are trying to catch a dangerous 00:12:17.889 --> 00:12:21.549 sexual predator who's targeting women. But the 00:12:21.549 --> 00:12:24.509 way they went about, you know, sort of achieving 00:12:24.509 --> 00:12:28.750 that very, you know, important goal exposed Jane 00:12:28.750 --> 00:12:31.590 Doe and others, you know, to unacceptable risk. 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:35.320 again, it kind of comes back to that question 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.840 of like, who gets to make these decisions? Who 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.139 are the people who are making these decisions? 00:12:41.019 --> 00:12:43.659 You know, Jane Doe and these other women who 00:12:43.659 --> 00:12:45.840 were exposed to the risk of sexual violence, 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.200 they had no say, you know, in the matter. They 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:51.320 had no voice. And that sense of powerlessness 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:55.549 has always really stuck with me. And then the 00:12:55.549 --> 00:12:57.950 other part of that story that really stuck with 00:12:57.950 --> 00:13:02.049 me is the way that Jane Doe used the legal system, 00:13:02.149 --> 00:13:05.970 used a legal process to sort of reclaim some 00:13:05.970 --> 00:13:09.409 of her power and reclaim her voice that was taken 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:13.309 from her. That was really powerful to me as a 00:13:13.309 --> 00:13:16.149 law student. Well, that's amazing. And I know 00:13:16.149 --> 00:13:18.409 a lot of the work that you do now focuses on 00:13:18.409 --> 00:13:21.429 vulnerable victims, many of which are sexual 00:13:21.429 --> 00:13:24.009 violence cases. I believe you're now the chair 00:13:24.009 --> 00:13:26.190 of the Ministry of the Attorney General's Sexual 00:13:26.190 --> 00:13:28.590 Violence Advisory Group. Can you tell us a little 00:13:28.590 --> 00:13:30.909 bit more about what that group is? Yeah, absolutely. 00:13:31.210 --> 00:13:34.210 So the Sexual Violence Advisory Group was formed 00:13:34.210 --> 00:13:38.090 in 2015. It was part of then Premier Wynne's 00:13:38.090 --> 00:13:41.340 Sexual Violence and Harassment Action Plan. And 00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:43.480 it was sort of a multi -pronged approach that 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:45.799 affected a number of different, you know, aspects 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:48.580 and ministries. And for the Ministry of the Attorney 00:13:48.580 --> 00:13:52.539 General, it created this sexual violence advisory 00:13:52.539 --> 00:13:55.720 group, which is a dedicated group of seven specialized 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:59.759 prosecutors. And we were given the mandate of 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.940 developing an enhanced prosecution model for 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:07.080 sexual violence cases and trying to improve the 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.580 victim's experience in the criminal justice system 00:14:09.580 --> 00:14:14.860 in particular. So, you know, I think this was 00:14:14.860 --> 00:14:21.580 back in 2015. At the time, I wouldn't say that 00:14:21.580 --> 00:14:25.919 I had necessarily specialized exclusively in 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.139 sexual violence cases at that point. I'd certainly 00:14:28.139 --> 00:14:32.340 been more attracted to cases with vulnerable 00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:35.720 victims and had done a lot of those cases. I 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:38.600 was very much attracted to the sort of... the 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:42.159 complex, you know, legal framework, you know, 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:45.539 in sexual assault prosecutions, but also the 00:14:45.539 --> 00:14:49.039 sort of challenging human dynamics in those cases. 00:14:49.779 --> 00:14:54.100 And, you know, I debated when the position became 00:14:54.100 --> 00:14:55.919 available and when the Sexual Violence Advisory 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.139 Group was created. On the one hand, it was like, 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:02.639 wow, what an amazing opportunity. But I was also 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:07.000 a little bit reluctant because doing this kind 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:09.620 of work really does take a personal toll. And 00:15:09.620 --> 00:15:12.240 I wasn't sure that I wanted to sort of do only, 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:15.580 you know, this kind of work. But ultimately, 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.759 that sort of the opportunity to kind of build 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.939 an enhanced prosecution model from scratch. was 00:15:22.939 --> 00:15:27.460 too alluring. And I'm really glad I did sort 00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:30.240 of take that leap because it's been an absolutely 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:34.460 amazing opportunity to sort of, you know, really 00:15:34.460 --> 00:15:37.840 develop a depth of knowledge in one particular 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.120 area of criminal law, which is something as prosecutors, 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:44.480 we don't often get that opportunity to do. Most 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:46.679 Crown prosecutors are sort of generalists. We 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.659 do a little bit of everything. I see. So was 00:15:49.659 --> 00:15:52.159 being part of this advisory group what led you 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:56.500 to take on the Hockey Canada case? Um, not - 00:15:56.600 --> 00:16:00.440 Not necessarily. So the Hockey Canada case was 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:02.539 assigned to me, which is pretty much how every 00:16:02.539 --> 00:16:05.179 case, you know, comes into the hands of any particular 00:16:05.179 --> 00:16:08.899 crown. But, you know, it's a little bit unusual 00:16:08.899 --> 00:16:11.200 because it was a case being prosecuted in London, 00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:13.980 Ontario, and I don't work primarily in London, 00:16:14.019 --> 00:16:17.659 Ontario. But obviously, you know, it was sort 00:16:17.659 --> 00:16:19.879 of anticipated that this was going to be a major 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.720 prosecution that would take a lot of time, not 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.059 just for the trial itself, but also in the... 00:16:26.090 --> 00:16:28.230 lead up to the trial, right? So the case management 00:16:28.230 --> 00:16:31.429 aspects, when you have five accused, are going 00:16:31.429 --> 00:16:34.809 to be pretty demanding. So, you know, I think 00:16:34.809 --> 00:16:36.570 it was always clear that there was going to need 00:16:36.570 --> 00:16:39.330 to be more than one crown on the case. Taking 00:16:39.330 --> 00:16:42.230 two crowns from the London, you know, Crown's 00:16:42.230 --> 00:16:44.629 office would be a significant drain on the resources 00:16:44.629 --> 00:16:48.009 of that office. So I think it probably made sense 00:16:48.009 --> 00:16:50.669 to bring someone in from outside of London. And 00:16:50.669 --> 00:16:53.769 it was just a good fit for my experience and 00:16:53.769 --> 00:16:56.409 the position that I was in at the time. So I'd 00:16:56.409 --> 00:16:59.210 recently become the chair of the sexual violence 00:16:59.210 --> 00:17:02.490 advisory group. I didn't have a demanding trial 00:17:02.490 --> 00:17:05.109 schedule. My schedule was a bit more flexible 00:17:05.109 --> 00:17:07.269 so I could handle the amount of case management 00:17:07.269 --> 00:17:09.769 that would be involved in this particular case. 00:17:10.349 --> 00:17:12.589 And I had done other cases that had attracted 00:17:12.589 --> 00:17:14.710 media attention before. So I had that kind of 00:17:14.710 --> 00:17:16.940 experience as well. Yeah, I want to talk to you 00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:18.640 a bit more about that because you also mentioned 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.420 the personal toll that these types of cases has 00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:23.980 on you. So when you got this case, how did you 00:17:23.980 --> 00:17:28.220 prepare yourself mentally and emotionally? Yeah, 00:17:28.220 --> 00:17:31.539 that's a really good question. I mean, I think, 00:17:31.539 --> 00:17:35.690 you know, one of the most important... parts 00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:40.289 of preparing mentally and emotionally for the 00:17:40.289 --> 00:17:43.210 case is sort of making sure you've got a solid 00:17:43.210 --> 00:17:46.789 support network in place, knowing, you know, 00:17:46.809 --> 00:17:49.990 what the demands are going to be. So, you know, 00:17:50.009 --> 00:17:53.190 a big part of that is, you know, your sort of 00:17:53.190 --> 00:17:57.549 home, you know, support and network. And, you 00:17:57.549 --> 00:18:00.150 know, so knowing that you've got your sort of 00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:03.349 family and friends that you can rely on. But, 00:18:03.450 --> 00:18:06.349 you know, there was also sort of different aspects 00:18:06.349 --> 00:18:10.430 of developing and sort of making sure that my 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:13.829 work support network was in place as well. So 00:18:13.829 --> 00:18:18.230 part of that involved getting to know who my 00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:21.349 co -counsel was, someone who I didn't know before 00:18:21.349 --> 00:18:24.650 I was assigned to this case. And so we had to 00:18:24.650 --> 00:18:27.609 sort of develop a working relationship. We had 00:18:27.609 --> 00:18:29.410 to get to know each other and figure out how 00:18:29.410 --> 00:18:32.150 we can work together. And we did that from afar 00:18:32.150 --> 00:18:35.799 before the case began. Same with the investigating 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:38.319 officer in the case. It's really important to 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:42.859 sort of build trust and sort of develop a rapport 00:18:42.859 --> 00:18:44.819 with the people that you're going to work with, 00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:48.259 knowing that once the trial actually gets going, 00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:51.619 things can get pretty intense. And so you need 00:18:51.619 --> 00:18:54.680 to have that kind of established relationship 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:59.200 before you get to that point. I would also say 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:06.160 that Part of it for me was recognizing early 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:10.319 on that once this trial began, it was going to 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:14.299 demand my full attention. So I had to be kind 00:19:14.299 --> 00:19:18.720 of mentally prepared to let other things take 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:23.079 a backseat. for me personally, because I'm a 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:26.539 bit of a control freak, I had to sort of know 00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:29.940 that I was leaving other things in good hands, 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.420 you know, both on a personal level and a professional 00:19:32.420 --> 00:19:35.039 level. So, you know, I had amazing colleagues 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:37.640 on the sexual violence advisory group who stepped 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.039 in to handle all of the other stuff that might 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:43.519 have pulled my focus away, you know, during the 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:47.099 trial. You know, my husband was effectively solo 00:19:47.099 --> 00:19:50.660 parenting, you know, during the trial. But I, 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.819 you know, was confident that all of that was, 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.019 you know, well in hand. And, you know, so it 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:58.920 was really about, you know, sort of trying to 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.960 get everything in place ahead of time before 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.819 the trial began so that, you know, I would be 00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:08.220 able to devote, you know, my full attention to 00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.920 the trial once it was happening. So once everything's 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:12.720 set in place, I was wondering if you could take 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.519 me through a day. working on this case, you know, 00:20:15.539 --> 00:20:19.039 preparation, talking with your co -counsel, you 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:20.579 know, how long are your workdays and how do you 00:20:20.579 --> 00:20:24.460 schedule it? So, yeah, during the trial itself, 00:20:24.819 --> 00:20:30.099 the days were long. You know, I was living, you 00:20:30.099 --> 00:20:32.759 know, in a rented apartment in London, Ontario, 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.220 650 kilometres away from where I normally live. 00:20:36.420 --> 00:20:39.880 So, you know, my routine during that trial was 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:45.039 not at all usual in terms of what my life would 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:48.059 be like at home. Um, so I would say, you know, 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.680 during the trial, I think typically I would wake 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:53.700 up around 6 30 in the morning, you know, have 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:56.299 some breakfast, do a little work. Um, I was able 00:20:56.299 --> 00:20:58.519 to walk to the courthouse in London. I was near 00:20:58.519 --> 00:21:01.119 enough to do that. So I appreciated that opportunity 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.079 to get outside. And then, you know, you get to 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:08.279 the courthouse. You know, I was lucky enough 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.779 to have an office, you know, within the London 00:21:11.779 --> 00:21:14.579 Crown Attorney's Office at the courthouse. So 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:17.339 I had a place where I could sort of leave my 00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:20.779 things and print things as needed. You know, 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.099 I would connect with Heather, who was my co -counsel. 00:21:23.619 --> 00:21:25.799 Sometimes we would need to connect with witnesses 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:29.220 or the investigating officer. We would be doing 00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:32.000 some last minute prep for arguments we knew were 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.660 going to arise that day or printing of exhibits 00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:38.319 and things like that. And that's all sort of 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:42.160 before we head up to the courtroom in London. 00:21:42.259 --> 00:21:44.759 The courthouse is very vertical. I think there 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:50.099 were 14 floors. Yeah. And so our courtroom was 00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:52.759 on the 14th floor. You really can only get there 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.160 by elevator. And there were generally only sort 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.740 of one or two of the three available elevators 00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:02.380 in operation. So you had to leave a little bit 00:22:02.380 --> 00:22:03.819 early to make sure you were going to get up to 00:22:03.819 --> 00:22:06.720 the courtroom in time. So court starts at 10 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.700 typically. So, you know, around 930 or so, we'd 00:22:09.700 --> 00:22:12.980 start gathering our stuff and getting ready to 00:22:12.980 --> 00:22:16.700 kind of head up to the courtroom. And then the 00:22:16.700 --> 00:22:19.559 court day usually goes till about 4 .30 or 5. 00:22:20.299 --> 00:22:24.319 After that, we do some more debriefing. I'd speak 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:26.319 with my co -counsel, sometimes the investigating 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:29.559 officer. Again, we're making arrangements for 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:33.019 witnesses the next day, doing all of that kind 00:22:33.019 --> 00:22:35.539 of stuff, talking about what issues might arise 00:22:35.539 --> 00:22:38.740 the next day, dividing up work, doing that kind 00:22:38.740 --> 00:22:44.500 of thing. And then sort of getting home around, 00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:47.980 i don't know between six and seven you know have 00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:50.680 some dinner sometimes do a little bit more work 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:54.619 i tried to leave um you know an hour or so before 00:22:54.619 --> 00:22:57.940 bed to sort of you know decompress from the day 00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:02.460 i actually find for me jigsaw puzzles are the 00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:04.880 way to like shut my brain off oh i'm with you 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.579 i love a good jigsaw puzzle um i know that the 00:23:08.579 --> 00:23:11.619 listeners can't see but behind me i have a giant 00:23:11.619 --> 00:23:14.250 painting but it's actually a jigsaw puzzle Oh, 00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:18.170 amazing. And I'm the type of crazy person that 00:23:18.170 --> 00:23:21.890 glues my puzzles and frames them. So there you 00:23:21.890 --> 00:23:25.470 go. So I wish I could show you on my, my dining 00:23:25.470 --> 00:23:27.930 room table right now, I got a puzzle for Christmas 00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:32.569 and it's a 2000 piece puzzle, but it makes eight. 00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:35.859 Like it makes each of the planets. It makes planet 00:23:35.859 --> 00:23:38.319 shaped puzzles, but they're all together in one 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.980 2000 piece thing. So you have to first kind of 00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:44.839 sort them and decide. Anyway, it's a beautiful 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:46.960 puzzle and I just finished it. Congratulations. 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:51.740 Thank you. Yes. So we talked about, you know, 00:23:51.740 --> 00:23:54.880 all the prep work that has to go into going to 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.519 a trial. And I feel like they don't really talk 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.420 about the prep work, especially in like TV shows 00:23:59.420 --> 00:24:02.069 about criminal cases. you know when you watch 00:24:02.069 --> 00:24:05.029 a tv show it always seems like trials are you 00:24:05.029 --> 00:24:07.509 know an adrenaline rush it's always like super 00:24:07.509 --> 00:24:10.630 dramatic but what are some of the other big misconceptions 00:24:10.630 --> 00:24:13.410 that you think the public might have about criminal 00:24:13.410 --> 00:24:17.029 court Well, I think one of the big misconceptions 00:24:17.029 --> 00:24:21.529 is just how long, you know, it takes for a case 00:24:21.529 --> 00:24:23.650 to make its way, you know, through the criminal 00:24:23.650 --> 00:24:26.170 justice system. You know, an episode of Law and 00:24:26.170 --> 00:24:28.289 Order, like the crime is committed and solved 00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:30.910 and the trial is over all within, you know, a 00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:33.670 one hour episode. So I think it kind of sets 00:24:33.670 --> 00:24:37.250 up this idea that, you know, these cases can 00:24:37.250 --> 00:24:40.690 move quite quickly when in fact they move slowly. 00:24:40.970 --> 00:24:43.890 And I think people also don't understand just 00:24:43.890 --> 00:24:47.329 how many. steps there are in the process right 00:24:47.329 --> 00:24:50.910 so sometimes there are bail hearings there could 00:24:50.910 --> 00:24:53.630 be a preliminary hearing there are pretrial motions 00:24:53.630 --> 00:24:56.789 there are all kinds of meetings between the crown 00:24:56.789 --> 00:24:59.869 and the defense lawyer judicial pretrials which 00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:02.029 are meetings with the crown the defense lawyer 00:25:02.029 --> 00:25:06.130 and the judge and so Things are happening on 00:25:06.130 --> 00:25:09.009 the case, but nothing necessarily, you know, 00:25:09.009 --> 00:25:11.869 in court on the record or even if things are 00:25:11.869 --> 00:25:14.470 happening in court on the record, it's not part 00:25:14.470 --> 00:25:17.890 of the trial. So I think people don't necessarily 00:25:17.890 --> 00:25:21.009 understand that there's a lot more like the trial 00:25:21.009 --> 00:25:23.369 is kind of the tip of the iceberg. Right. And 00:25:23.369 --> 00:25:25.890 the rest of the iceberg is all of the rest of 00:25:25.890 --> 00:25:27.930 the work that goes into getting ready for the 00:25:27.930 --> 00:25:30.450 trial. How about any misconceptions about the 00:25:30.450 --> 00:25:35.079 role of a crown attorney? You know, I think a 00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:38.430 lot of people don't. necessarily understand what 00:25:38.430 --> 00:25:41.029 the Crown's role is. I think a lot of people 00:25:41.029 --> 00:25:43.630 think that the Crown is the victim's lawyer, 00:25:43.769 --> 00:25:46.690 right? They sort of view, you know, a criminal 00:25:46.690 --> 00:25:49.289 trial as like the accused versus the victim. 00:25:49.470 --> 00:25:52.009 But that's not what a criminal trial is, right? 00:25:52.089 --> 00:25:54.950 The Crown represents the public, not the victim. 00:25:55.250 --> 00:25:58.650 And there's an aspect to the Crown role that 00:25:58.650 --> 00:26:01.750 is sort of a quasi -minister of justice role. 00:26:02.049 --> 00:26:04.250 You know, the Crown has to act in the public 00:26:04.250 --> 00:26:06.640 interest. And that includes the victim is a member 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:09.079 of the public, it includes taking the victim's, 00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:12.079 you know, views and interests into consideration. 00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:16.099 But, you know, ultimately, the Crown is acting 00:26:16.099 --> 00:26:19.019 in the public interest. And, you know, I think 00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:22.720 people also don't necessarily understand just 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.359 how much discretion individual Crowns have, you 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:29.160 know, in relation to the cases that they have 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:33.069 carriage of. We do have policies to follow, but 00:26:33.069 --> 00:26:36.309 for the most part, they're not rigid. And individual 00:26:36.309 --> 00:26:39.930 crowns do have a lot of discretion. And in fact, 00:26:39.990 --> 00:26:43.349 the system relies on individual crowns, you know, 00:26:43.369 --> 00:26:46.890 making principled decisions in each case, making 00:26:46.890 --> 00:26:48.890 decisions about whether there's a reasonable 00:26:48.890 --> 00:26:51.710 prospect of conviction, making decisions about 00:26:51.710 --> 00:26:54.029 what is in the public interest and how to conduct 00:26:54.029 --> 00:26:57.069 their particular case. You know, part of that 00:26:57.069 --> 00:27:01.980 sort of responsibility, you know, is what attracted 00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:05.319 me to the Crown, you know, role. You know, it's 00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:08.700 a responsibility, but it's also a freedom because, 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:13.519 you know, it is the Crown's job to do the right 00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:15.920 thing. And if I can get into the Hockey Canada 00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.720 case just in particular, in your opinion, since 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:21.480 you worked firsthand on this trial, what were 00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:23.660 some of the biggest misconceptions that you think 00:27:23.660 --> 00:27:26.900 people might have had about this case? Well, 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:31.259 you know, one of the issues that I saw come up 00:27:31.259 --> 00:27:34.559 a lot was some confusion about The decision to 00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:37.440 prosecute, you know, and how that decision gets 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.940 made and who makes that decision. And I don't 00:27:39.940 --> 00:27:42.920 think it's necessarily unique to the Hockey Canada 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:46.160 case. I think in general, the public doesn't 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.660 necessarily understand what goes into a decision 00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:50.779 about whether or not to proceed with a criminal 00:27:50.779 --> 00:27:54.420 case. And in Ontario, the decision about whether 00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:57.380 to lay a charge, right? Like if criminal charges 00:27:57.380 --> 00:27:59.660 are going to be laid and what charges are going 00:27:59.660 --> 00:28:02.720 to be laid and who's going to be charged. Those 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.579 decisions rest with the police. There can be 00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:08.200 consultation between Crown and police, but ultimately 00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:11.099 it's a police decision, you know, whether charges 00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:14.660 are laid. But once the charges are laid, then 00:28:14.660 --> 00:28:16.740 it's the Crown's decision. Then it's up to the 00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:18.740 Crown to decide what's going to happen to those 00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:22.380 charges. And, you know, in making that determination, 00:28:22.740 --> 00:28:25.720 the Crown has to assess, is there a reasonable 00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:28.779 prospect of conviction? And is the prosecution 00:28:28.779 --> 00:28:32.190 in the public interest? And, you know, public 00:28:32.190 --> 00:28:34.369 interest is another thing that I think, you know, 00:28:34.390 --> 00:28:38.509 people don't really understand. Public interest 00:28:38.509 --> 00:28:41.910 involves assessing a lot of different factors, 00:28:41.950 --> 00:28:46.890 but the public interest assessment is not influenced 00:28:46.890 --> 00:28:51.529 by politicians. It is not influenced by public 00:28:51.529 --> 00:28:54.490 sentiment, right? It's not about what the public 00:28:54.490 --> 00:28:57.869 wants. It's about what is in the best interest 00:28:57.869 --> 00:29:01.609 of the public. right and so you know a prosecution 00:29:01.609 --> 00:29:04.650 can only proceed a crown can only proceed with 00:29:04.650 --> 00:29:08.390 a prosecution if they have concluded that there 00:29:08.390 --> 00:29:11.910 is both a reasonable prospect of conviction and 00:29:11.910 --> 00:29:16.250 a public interest in the prosecution so a really 00:29:16.250 --> 00:29:19.940 strong public interest cannot make up for an 00:29:19.940 --> 00:29:22.460 absence of a reasonable prospect of conviction. 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:25.579 Right, right. Right? And so, you know, a reasonable 00:29:25.579 --> 00:29:28.839 prospect of conviction means that a guilty verdict 00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:32.480 wouldn't be unreasonable. That's the sort of 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:36.059 the test. So, you know, as I sort of said earlier, 00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:40.380 you know, as a prosecutor, it's your responsibility 00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:45.210 to... proceed with cases where there's a reasonable 00:29:45.210 --> 00:29:47.650 prospect of conviction and it's in the public 00:29:47.650 --> 00:29:50.369 interest. But it's also the prosecutor's duty 00:29:50.369 --> 00:29:53.809 to discontinue a prosecution if you don't believe 00:29:53.809 --> 00:29:56.690 there's a reasonable prospect of conviction and 00:29:56.690 --> 00:29:59.089 that continuing is not in the public interest. 00:29:59.789 --> 00:30:02.869 You know, we talked about the complexities that 00:30:02.869 --> 00:30:05.289 go into this case, but also how you need to decompress 00:30:05.289 --> 00:30:08.059 from the pressures of it all. Do you find it 00:30:08.059 --> 00:30:09.839 hard to detach from cases when you're working 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.819 on them, especially cases of this nature? Is 00:30:12.819 --> 00:30:14.579 this even a goal or something you strive for? 00:30:14.779 --> 00:30:16.799 Or do you like to be fully immersed in a case 00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:19.519 when you're working on it? That's such a great 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:21.599 question, because I don't think that there's 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:24.460 sort of a right or wrong answer or one answer 00:30:24.460 --> 00:30:27.279 that sort of... works for everyone or even that 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:31.259 works for me in all cases. You know, it's very 00:30:31.259 --> 00:30:34.859 sort of individual. This kind of work does carry 00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:38.240 a very high risk of vicarious trauma and moral 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:42.559 injury. And, you know, part of, I talked earlier 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:46.099 about this enhanced prosecution model, you know, 00:30:46.099 --> 00:30:48.339 that we developed as part of the Sexual Violence 00:30:48.339 --> 00:30:51.420 Advisory Group. The enhanced prosecution model 00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:55.119 really at its core is a trauma -informed prosecution 00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:59.799 model. And part of prosecuting sexual violence 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:03.960 cases effectively requires understanding the 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.779 impacts of trauma on the people involved in the 00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:10.640 case, but also how it can affect us as well. 00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:15.640 And one thing that we have learned is that traumatic 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:19.039 memories are very difficult for someone to sort 00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:24.279 of access and communicate. But you give them 00:31:24.279 --> 00:31:27.400 the best chance of being able to access and communicate 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.779 those memories effectively if you can sort of 00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:34.359 put people at ease, right? The more anxious and 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.599 defensive, you know, and uncomfortable someone 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:40.059 is, the more difficult it's going to be for them 00:31:40.059 --> 00:31:42.960 to access and communicate those traumatic memories. 00:31:43.299 --> 00:31:46.839 So the reason I sort of think that's important 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:50.539 is because you know making a human connection 00:31:50.539 --> 00:31:53.700 you know with the complainant in you know any 00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:58.559 particular case is absolutely critical, not only 00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:03.079 to that complainant's experience, engaging with 00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:05.579 the criminal justice system, but it's also crucial 00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:10.680 for a successful prosecution. It's crucial to 00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:14.960 allow the complainant to effectively communicate 00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:20.500 her experience. So completely detaching is really 00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:23.480 not an option if you want to do these cases effectively. 00:32:25.230 --> 00:32:28.049 you know, and some people talk about, you know, 00:32:28.069 --> 00:32:31.549 you need to be empathetic. The difficulty with 00:32:31.549 --> 00:32:33.569 empathy, right, is that it requires you to put 00:32:33.569 --> 00:32:36.369 yourself in someone else's shoes. And that can 00:32:36.369 --> 00:32:38.549 be really taxing emotionally, right? Because 00:32:38.549 --> 00:32:40.470 then you're sort of feeling what they're feeling. 00:32:41.309 --> 00:32:44.309 Some of the reading that I've done talks about 00:32:44.309 --> 00:32:47.210 how a better approach might be focusing more 00:32:47.210 --> 00:32:50.750 on compassion, right? To try and understand what 00:32:50.750 --> 00:32:54.950 someone is experiencing and then respond to that, 00:32:55.130 --> 00:32:59.509 right? To sort of fundamentally respect the dignity 00:32:59.509 --> 00:33:02.230 of the people you're interacting with rather 00:33:02.230 --> 00:33:05.710 than trying to sort of feel what they're feeling. 00:33:06.569 --> 00:33:10.269 So, I mean, you know, that's the theory. In practice, 00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:12.490 I think most of us just kind of feel our way 00:33:12.490 --> 00:33:15.589 through it. You know, some complainants I connect 00:33:15.589 --> 00:33:18.650 to more on a... personal level than others. Some 00:33:18.650 --> 00:33:22.470 cases require more immersion than other cases 00:33:22.470 --> 00:33:28.069 do. For the hockey case, I immersed myself in 00:33:28.069 --> 00:33:30.609 that trial in a way that I probably wouldn't 00:33:30.609 --> 00:33:33.650 for most other cases, but a large part of that 00:33:33.650 --> 00:33:36.009 was the unique living situation I found myself 00:33:36.009 --> 00:33:40.109 in. Living separate from my other life commitments 00:33:40.109 --> 00:33:44.430 and activities that were otherwise on hold was 00:33:44.430 --> 00:33:48.750 just a bit of a unique I think, you know, for 00:33:48.750 --> 00:33:52.509 most people in most cases, you know, it is really 00:33:52.509 --> 00:33:55.970 critical to sort of find a way to strike that 00:33:55.970 --> 00:33:58.390 balance and draw that line between your work 00:33:58.390 --> 00:34:02.210 life and your home life. And I think most people 00:34:02.210 --> 00:34:04.730 would probably say that's a work in progress, 00:34:04.950 --> 00:34:06.650 you know, right up until the point when you retire. 00:34:07.890 --> 00:34:10.269 Did reading the news at all affect the way that 00:34:10.269 --> 00:34:12.090 you were working, especially on a case like this? 00:34:13.349 --> 00:34:17.030 Well, that's interesting. I mean, certainly I 00:34:17.030 --> 00:34:19.909 got lots of advice before the trial started not 00:34:19.909 --> 00:34:24.429 to read the news. You know, it's kind of impossible, 00:34:24.630 --> 00:34:28.570 you know, at a certain point. There's a real 00:34:28.570 --> 00:34:32.250 risk that it can be a distraction. You know, 00:34:32.289 --> 00:34:35.570 I think when there's a jury trial, you know, 00:34:35.570 --> 00:34:40.530 in particular, I do find it helpful to sort of 00:34:40.530 --> 00:34:44.190 read. how the journalists who are sitting in 00:34:44.190 --> 00:34:47.070 the courtroom are perceiving things and that's 00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:48.949 interesting well because it gives you a little 00:34:48.949 --> 00:34:51.550 bit of an insight into how the jury might be 00:34:51.550 --> 00:34:53.829 perceiving things right these are also people 00:34:53.829 --> 00:34:55.929 who are sort of hearing the evidence for the 00:34:55.929 --> 00:34:59.920 first time So I think that when I'm doing a jury 00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:03.659 trial, I do like to sort of keep an eye on some 00:35:03.659 --> 00:35:06.679 of the reporting for that particular reason. 00:35:07.340 --> 00:35:11.619 But I stay far away from social media, not just 00:35:11.619 --> 00:35:14.420 in this case that's sort of a life rule generally, 00:35:14.619 --> 00:35:17.800 but I'm very conscious of the sort of the negativity 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:20.960 bias that exists, right? Like one negative comment, 00:35:21.179 --> 00:35:24.900 you know. takes on a much more significant role 00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:28.000 than, you know, 50 positive comments. So, you 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:31.460 know, that was a distraction that I did not need. 00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:34.260 And so I certainly stayed far away from that 00:35:34.260 --> 00:35:37.639 in this case. That's good. Good for you. Yeah. 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:41.500 I have trouble detaching from social media, but 00:35:41.500 --> 00:35:43.860 hey, it's 2026. That can be my new resolution. 00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:49.139 Not too late. Exactly. after the verdict you 00:35:49.139 --> 00:35:51.340 stood in front of reporters and there's a clip 00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:53.539 of you where you said and i quote a successful 00:35:53.539 --> 00:35:55.940 prosecution is not measured solely by whether 00:35:55.940 --> 00:35:58.420 there are guilty verdicts in the end the crown's 00:35:58.420 --> 00:36:00.679 goal throughout this proceeding is to see a fair 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.400 trial what were you hoping to communicate to 00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:05.159 the public when you were making those remarks 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:10.449 um i think that part of the remarks really touched 00:36:10.449 --> 00:36:14.190 on two things. First is that sort of idea of 00:36:14.190 --> 00:36:17.090 the quasi -minister of justice part of the Crown's 00:36:17.090 --> 00:36:19.829 role, right? The Crown is not looking for a conviction 00:36:19.829 --> 00:36:23.349 at any cost. We are looking to have a case judge 00:36:23.349 --> 00:36:26.849 fairly through a process that respects the rights 00:36:26.849 --> 00:36:29.170 of the accused and respects the rights of the 00:36:29.170 --> 00:36:33.309 victim. So a fair trial is always the end goal, 00:36:33.449 --> 00:36:36.269 you know, for the Crown, not a conviction. So 00:36:36.269 --> 00:36:39.639 that's part of it. And I think I was also trying 00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:43.480 to communicate that the public interest can be 00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:47.059 furthered by the prosecution itself, not just 00:36:47.059 --> 00:36:51.219 by a particular outcome. So, you know, keeping 00:36:51.219 --> 00:36:53.500 in mind, of course, that public interest is not 00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:56.079 a substitute for reasonable prospect of conviction, 00:36:56.340 --> 00:36:59.059 right? So I'm not sort of saying that, you know, 00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:02.590 a public interest alone is enough. But I think 00:37:02.590 --> 00:37:04.610 it's important that we don't sort of fall into 00:37:04.610 --> 00:37:08.289 this trap of saying, well, there wasn't a conviction 00:37:08.289 --> 00:37:11.730 at the end. So obviously the prosecution wasn't 00:37:11.730 --> 00:37:15.730 in the public interest. I think, you know, in 00:37:15.730 --> 00:37:19.150 this particular case, because of the media attention, 00:37:19.369 --> 00:37:21.210 because so many people were paying attention 00:37:21.210 --> 00:37:24.170 to what was happening in this case. it really 00:37:24.170 --> 00:37:27.690 sparked important conversations about what consent 00:37:27.690 --> 00:37:31.389 is, about how consent can and can't be communicated. 00:37:33.099 --> 00:37:35.880 You know, important conversations about how well 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:40.260 our law is doing at understanding complex behavior. 00:37:41.019 --> 00:37:44.739 You know, important conversations about how victims 00:37:44.739 --> 00:37:47.159 of sexual violence are treated in the criminal 00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:50.039 justice system. So I think, you know, these are 00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:53.440 really important conversations for all of us 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:56.920 as a society, you know, to be having. And so 00:37:56.920 --> 00:38:00.239 I think, you know, that's part of this. You know, 00:38:00.260 --> 00:38:04.480 when the case was over, I received a lot of messages 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:08.019 from members of the public who I didn't know. 00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:12.849 More than 50, in fact. And a lot of these messages 00:38:12.849 --> 00:38:17.550 were from women who, you know, shared with me 00:38:17.550 --> 00:38:20.989 their own experiences of sexual violence. They 00:38:20.989 --> 00:38:23.150 talked about how they were not able to speak 00:38:23.150 --> 00:38:27.250 up or fight for themselves. And they talked about 00:38:27.250 --> 00:38:31.380 how seeing EM sort of. break the silence and 00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:35.159 seeing her have the courage to testify and going 00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:37.480 through that, how it was so meaningful for them. 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:42.039 Someone said her courage is contagious. So, you 00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:44.960 know, I think that part of it sort of speaks 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:48.619 to the public interest issues as well. I think 00:38:48.619 --> 00:38:51.940 there are public interest goals that can be achieved 00:38:51.940 --> 00:38:55.739 through a prosecution that don't depend on the 00:38:55.739 --> 00:38:58.019 actual outcome of the case. Yeah, and you spoke 00:38:58.019 --> 00:39:01.480 about the dialogue. That's been ongoing, regardless 00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:04.019 of what the verdict is. And I was wondering if 00:39:04.019 --> 00:39:06.800 you think that whether or not this dialogue has 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.380 reached a point where people are discussing, 00:39:09.500 --> 00:39:11.659 you know, what are other dispute resolution methods 00:39:11.659 --> 00:39:14.920 when it comes to sexual assault cases? You know, 00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:17.199 the words restorative justice are thrown around 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:19.500 here and there, but what's your take on it? Like, 00:39:19.539 --> 00:39:21.940 are there alternative ways to address these matters? 00:39:22.650 --> 00:39:24.510 Well, that's a really interesting and timely 00:39:24.510 --> 00:39:26.789 question. There are lots of conversations being 00:39:26.789 --> 00:39:29.409 had about restorative justice right now, in particular 00:39:29.409 --> 00:39:32.809 how it might be used in relation to sexual assault 00:39:32.809 --> 00:39:36.829 cases. I think it's important to contextualize 00:39:36.829 --> 00:39:41.110 this a little bit. Research shows that approximately 00:39:41.110 --> 00:39:44.829 5 % of sexual assaults are reported to the police. 00:39:45.369 --> 00:39:49.550 Right. I mean, it's one of the most underreported 00:39:49.550 --> 00:39:53.170 crimes. And the criminal code and our Supreme 00:39:53.170 --> 00:39:57.230 Court say over and over again that we as a society 00:39:57.230 --> 00:39:59.369 have an interest in encouraging the reporting 00:39:59.369 --> 00:40:02.530 of sexual offenses. But we also have a delay 00:40:02.530 --> 00:40:05.429 problem in our court system. So there's a tension 00:40:05.429 --> 00:40:08.150 between wanting to increase reporting and our 00:40:08.150 --> 00:40:11.570 system's sort of capacity to handle, you know, 00:40:11.590 --> 00:40:15.449 an increase in volume. I think it's important 00:40:15.449 --> 00:40:19.710 to sort of recognize the very important role 00:40:19.710 --> 00:40:22.030 that the criminal justice system plays in society. 00:40:22.449 --> 00:40:27.190 The criminal justice system helps us maintain 00:40:27.190 --> 00:40:30.289 public confidence in the rule of law. It promotes 00:40:30.289 --> 00:40:35.210 public safety and security. And so generally 00:40:35.210 --> 00:40:38.090 speaking, the criminal justice system is where 00:40:38.090 --> 00:40:41.539 serious crimes should be dealt with. That's the 00:40:41.539 --> 00:40:43.539 system that we have for dealing with serious 00:40:43.539 --> 00:40:46.440 crime. And sexual assault is a serious crime. 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:51.380 And it's taken a long time to have the public 00:40:51.380 --> 00:40:54.239 and the courts recognize just how harmful and 00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:57.719 serious non -consensual sexual touching can be, 00:40:57.860 --> 00:41:01.519 especially when there are no overt threats or 00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:05.539 physical violence involved. So I think it's important 00:41:05.539 --> 00:41:09.219 to make sure we're not... you know, embarking 00:41:09.219 --> 00:41:12.679 on a path that moves us backwards in terms of 00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:15.639 recognizing the seriousness of sexual violence. 00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:19.380 But at the same time, you know, it's undeniable 00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:22.739 that the criminal justice system is not right 00:41:22.739 --> 00:41:26.460 for every victim or for every case, right? For 00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:29.159 very good reasons, a criminal trial requires 00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:32.059 the Crown to prove the case beyond a reasonable 00:41:32.059 --> 00:41:35.679 doubt, which is a very high standard. In most 00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:38.400 cases, the accused's fair trial right means that 00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:40.559 he will have an opportunity to cross -examine 00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:43.400 the victim, and that can be a very, very difficult 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:47.539 experience for a victim. So, you know, I think 00:41:47.539 --> 00:41:49.880 it's important to ensure that survivors of sexual 00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:52.949 violence are... informed about their choices 00:41:52.949 --> 00:41:56.570 and what might flow from starting down a particular 00:41:56.570 --> 00:42:00.230 path. And I think we need to do what we can to 00:42:00.230 --> 00:42:03.250 sort of empower survivors to make a choice for 00:42:03.250 --> 00:42:06.570 themselves about what process they want to engage 00:42:06.570 --> 00:42:11.269 with. And I have You know, I have quite a bit 00:42:11.269 --> 00:42:14.670 of experience using restorative justice processes, 00:42:14.730 --> 00:42:18.690 you know, as a Crown. I'm a huge supporter of 00:42:18.690 --> 00:42:20.789 these processes, generally speaking. I've had 00:42:20.789 --> 00:42:23.090 a lot of very positive experiences with them. 00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:27.699 I know some people have expressed concerns about 00:42:27.699 --> 00:42:33.039 the specifics of how we can use these processes 00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:36.739 in the context of sexual violence. Should it 00:42:36.739 --> 00:42:41.099 exist as part of the criminal justice system 00:42:41.099 --> 00:42:44.320 or a complete alternative to someone engaging 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:47.840 with the criminal justice system? And I think 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:51.079 most advocates for the use of restorative justice 00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:54.260 in sexual violence cases, I think most would 00:42:54.260 --> 00:42:58.260 agree that the process has to be victim -focused 00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:01.519 and victim -driven. It would not be appropriate 00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:05.139 for a victim of a serious crime like sexual assault 00:43:05.139 --> 00:43:08.739 to feel pressured into participating in a restorative 00:43:08.739 --> 00:43:12.750 justice process. And restorative justice also 00:43:12.750 --> 00:43:15.110 requires some sort of acknowledgement of harm 00:43:15.110 --> 00:43:17.750 done, you know, by the offender. Right. Or at 00:43:17.750 --> 00:43:20.789 least some kind of taking of responsibility or 00:43:20.789 --> 00:43:23.769 acceptance of facts. Right. If you don't have 00:43:23.769 --> 00:43:26.170 a sort of like common understanding or agreement 00:43:26.170 --> 00:43:29.329 about what happened, it's hard to imagine how 00:43:29.329 --> 00:43:32.610 that process could be, you know, healing or restorative, 00:43:32.610 --> 00:43:36.420 you know, for the victim. So, you know. I think 00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:39.519 it's a complex issue. I think these are, again, 00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:41.860 really important conversations to be having. 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:45.840 I think we have to listen carefully when we're 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:49.019 hearing survivors of sexual violence, when we're 00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:51.059 hearing some of them say they want more choices, 00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:54.739 aside from just a criminal trial. It's important 00:43:54.739 --> 00:43:57.599 to listen to what they're saying. But I think 00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:00.239 it's also important not to view restorative justice 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:03.320 as some sort of panacea or something that will 00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:05.820 be appropriate for all sexual violence cases, 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:09.380 like it's a complete answer. I think it's complicated, 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:12.760 and I think we're really just starting the important 00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:15.559 discussions about that. And that's powerful, 00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:18.059 and that's a great way to end things off. But 00:44:18.059 --> 00:44:20.340 before I let you go, I know that you're known 00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:22.480 for your focus on mentorship and championship 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:26.440 of generations who are coming after you. What's 00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:28.539 a piece of advice that you would give to young 00:44:28.539 --> 00:44:31.199 Crown attorneys or anyone who might be interested 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:35.460 in a role as a Crown prosecutor? Two things. 00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:41.219 First, be yourself. This is a human job that 00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:44.119 requires you to bring all of your human skills, 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:47.480 you know, connection, communication, curiosity. 00:44:48.019 --> 00:44:53.230 All of this is critical. You, you know, young 00:44:53.230 --> 00:44:56.309 crown starting out will never be able to do the 00:44:56.309 --> 00:44:58.869 job exactly the same way that someone else does. 00:44:59.869 --> 00:45:03.170 So, you know, I would tell, you know, a young 00:45:03.170 --> 00:45:06.650 crown to take inspiration from the people that 00:45:06.650 --> 00:45:10.829 you admire, but don't bottle up the things that 00:45:10.829 --> 00:45:14.989 make you, you. That is the key to your success, 00:45:15.090 --> 00:45:19.369 you know, as a litigator and as a crown. And 00:45:19.369 --> 00:45:23.570 the second thing is be brave. You know, being 00:45:23.570 --> 00:45:25.849 a crown means that you have the responsibility 00:45:25.849 --> 00:45:28.730 and the freedom to do what you believe is the 00:45:28.730 --> 00:45:32.389 right thing. Now, sometimes doing the right thing 00:45:32.389 --> 00:45:35.909 aligns with what others want and sometimes it 00:45:35.909 --> 00:45:40.150 doesn't. Right. So as a crown, it is really important 00:45:40.150 --> 00:45:44.010 to be guided by principle, not the desire to 00:45:44.010 --> 00:45:48.489 be popular. You can be a strong advocate in the 00:45:48.489 --> 00:45:52.010 courtroom and still fulfill that quasi -minister 00:45:52.010 --> 00:45:56.170 of justice role if you're brave. It is a great 00:45:56.170 --> 00:46:00.030 job. It won't feel like it some days, but it 00:46:00.030 --> 00:46:02.650 is tremendously rewarding if you stick with it. 00:46:03.730 --> 00:46:05.909 Amazing. Well, Megan, thank you so much for your 00:46:05.909 --> 00:46:08.269 time. I think this is a great conversation and 00:46:08.269 --> 00:46:10.389 listeners are going to have a great time listening 00:46:10.389 --> 00:46:12.929 to this and thinking about the topics that you've 00:46:12.929 --> 00:46:15.550 raised. So Megan, thank you once again for joining 00:46:15.550 --> 00:46:18.489 us and I wish you the best. Thanks. It was my 00:46:18.489 --> 00:46:22.230 pleasure. Nice chatting with you. Thank you for 00:46:22.230 --> 00:46:25.389 tapping into this episode of Law Syrup. Law Syrup 00:46:25.389 --> 00:46:27.869 is produced by me, Herman Wong, and the Ontario 00:46:27.869 --> 00:46:30.690 Justice Education Network. For more information 00:46:30.690 --> 00:46:33.889 and for accompanying resources, check out ojen 00:46:33.889 --> 00:46:36.809 .ca and our show notes. See you next time.