Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk
with special guests about hot topics in Canadian
law. This podcast is a co -production with the
Ontario Justice Education Network, also known
as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman Wong. Let's tap
it. Before we begin, please know that this show
is not intended to be legal advice or a replacement
for a legal representative. Summer's now over
and students are back in class, and what better
way to start the school year off than an episode
featuring just students? On today's show, I speak
with Zainab, Jal, and Marwa. They are the first,
second, and third place winners of OGEN's 2024
Social Change Essay Contest. Together, we chat
about what inspired them, why they decided to
take law in high school, and why they think other
students should do the same. Here's our conversation.
Hi, my name is Joel and I'm in grade 11. My name
is Marwa and I'm in grade 11 as well. My name
is Zainab and I'm in grade 12. So you are all
here today because you participated in the OGEN
essay contest. But I want to go back to when
you first got interested into the law. And it's
very interesting because, you know, a lot of
the people who listen to this show are high school
students, but we've never actually had high school
students. featured on the show before. So I think
this is a very exciting opportunity for you guys
to share your interests, what drew you to the
law, as well as, you know, what you might think
of doing in terms of a career after high school.
So how about we start off with our first question,
which is what was your first exposure to the
law? Or what made you decide to take a course
in law in high school? So Zainab, how about we
go to you first? So my first exposure to the
law was probably in like grade eight. So at the
time we were like in the middle of COVID. And
so I had a ton of free time on my hands. And
somehow I found myself on like the political
commentary side of YouTube. And so I kind of
fell into that rabbit hole. And then from there,
I realized how. closely related politics and
war and how they like impact our daily life.
And so that became a really big interest of mine.
And that's honestly stuck with me since then.
That's great. How about you, Marwa? Honestly,
I can't remember anything that specifically sparked
my interest. I know I've always loved like English
and all kinds of social topics. And I think that's
what extended my liking into law and politics.
I'm pretty sure I first started really liking
law through like... Criminal Minds, probably.
But that obviously expanded into true research
and actually finding a passion for this subject.
I took the course because I found that I really
wanted to study law in the future. And it was
my first chance to actually learn about law in
a class setting because there's reading about
it and researching. And then there's also being
in a class and being able to share your interest
with other people and learn about it. And it's
been my favorite class I've ever taken. That's
great. And you, Joel? Well laws all over the
media and especially in Bollywood movies so like
Like home movies about lawyer fighting a case
and while like watching those movies I always
thought would be so much fun to be a lawyer.
I heard that in the law class. They're like mock
trials which are exactly the trials in the movie
so like that made me want to really take a long
okay well that's exciting are any of you like
interested in like the sciences because i know
i wasn't oh i love science yes i i specifically
really love like psychology and neurology like
oh my gosh that's really i love neurology yeah
Oh my gosh. I took grade 9 and 10 science because
it was mandatory. And originally I was like,
oh, I'm totally going to be a doctor, right?
I wanted to be a surgeon. And then I took physics
and it was like an optics course. And I'm like,
this is like really beyond my knowledge. So kudos
to all of you for being very good and interested
in science because I was not. Anyways, we're
here to talk about the law. How about we talk
about why you like learning about the law? And
what do you find challenging in terms of learning
about all the different topics that come under
this umbrella? How about you, Jal? How about
you go first? Well, I really love that there's
no one answer in law. And it's like all about
your perspective. And it adds a lot of layers.
And that makes law really interesting to me.
But that also makes it really difficult, you
know what I mean? Yeah. Because most of the time,
there's, like, a lot of gray area in law, like,
infamously with, like, abortion, where the law
can be interpreted to show abortion as, like,
a form of murder. But other times, like, humane
practice. So it's, like, really hard to always
know what's morally right. Right. How about you,
Marwa? That's a hard one because there's definitely
a lot of answers to both. And I really agree
with Joel because one thing I like is how many
perspectives it involves. Like law connects to
so many different subjects. And as a result,
a lot of ways of thinking. I personally find
that law is dynamic. And so our way of understanding
or looking at it also has to be. And what's interesting
is that, again, that's also why it's challenging
because you're forced to have more than one perspective
and see law in a bunch of different ways. Right.
And you, Zainab? What I enjoy learning most about
the law is probably how it practically affects
our societies. And I think that's important to
consider is how the laws of an area would affect
the people who live there. But that said, one
of the more challenging aspects for me has been
learning to analyze cases from different perspectives
and understanding that Law is not always black
and white. And there's like so much nuance. And
there's a lot that can like vary depending on
circumstances. And while I kind of enjoy that
complexity overall, it can definitely be like
tricky to figure out that at times. Right. So
in terms of learning about the law, I know we
mentioned, you know, criminal minds. We've mentioned
law in Bollywood movies. Did anything shock you
when you took your law class and you're like,
wow, I didn't know this thing was actually a
part of the legal system we have here in Canada.
Marwa, how about we go to you first? I'm trying
to think here. I don't know if anything specifically
shocked me, but I do know that one thing that
surprised me or that I found challenging is that
I feel like it can be very vague, you know, for
a subject that's so wordy. I feel like there's
some things that like there's again, because
there's no one answer. I feel like sometimes.
politicians or the government can kind of take
advantage of that. So again, like abortion laws,
you have laws like that, that are very, very
hard to understand, like you can read between
the lines. And obviously, that probably has to
do with how the law can be open to change. But
that can make it really hard to understand and,
you know, form an opinion on some things. And
how about you, Joel? What surprised you? So particularly
in Canadian law, what really surprised me was
the notwithstanding cause and how the government
can choose to completely ignore the charter for
five years. So that was really cool. But if you're
not talking about Canadian law, what surprised
me the most is that humans have been using a
legal system for thousands of years. Right. And
even they always have a modern and equitable
way of thinking. For example, if you look at
the Code of Hammurabi, it's like a form of law
from Babylon. And it was discovered in 1750 BC,
pretty sure. One of the laws is that if a man
kills a pregnant woman, instead of killing the
man, they actually kill his daughter, which is
like one of the best ways to directly punish
the man. So I found that really interesting.
I think I saw the Code of Hammurabi when I was
in Paris last year. I think it's in the Louvre
Museum. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I was like,
I remember learning about this in my grade 11
law class. And I saw it in real life last year.
I'm like, oh my gosh, this is really bringing
me back to those days. But I mean, what's included
in there is pretty... um horrifying um but Zainab
how about you what surprised you when you first
started to learn about the law honestly like
Marwa said like there wasn't one thing where
I was like oh like that's surprising that it's
in Canadian law but I think like a broader um
like thing that surprised me going into my first
grade 11 law class um was how digestible the
law can be once you actually start to break down
like legal topics and principles And it becomes
like a lot less intimidating once you start to
read about it and get some background information
on why laws are the way that laws are. And you
realize that practically like they they do make
a lot of sense. Right. Did you find it challenging?
Did anybody here find it challenging when you
first took your law class and you're like, wow,
I don't understand what this is talking about?
Or were you like, OK, this kind of makes sense?
Honestly, for me, it kind of made sense, especially
the way that our. curriculum was like structured.
So like in the beginning, like the first few
weeks, the way that we kind of eased into it
was starting with like the background of law
and then like what law actually is before we
got into like the specifics. So I really liked
the way that it was structured. That's great.
How about you, Jal or Marwa? Did you find it
challenging at first? No, I found it pretty easy.
I think my teacher, yeah, he's like a really
good teacher. He made it like really simple for
me to understand. So really appreciate for that.
Yeah. How about you, Marwa? Um, yeah, I mean,
I think a lot of people find law intimidating,
because when you go straight into looking at
like the criminal code or the charter, it's it
can be hard to understand. But when you look
at the fundamentals first, then it's easier to
see because those fundamentals extend to like
every other part of law. So that's when I find
it easy to understand. But you kind of just have
to start from something that's easier to digest
and then go on to the more complicated things.
Right. Well, here's another question for you
all. How important do you think the teacher is
in terms of helping you to understand all of
these different legal topics? Joel, how about
we start with you? I think the teacher makes
a really big difference because they're basically
your entry point into law. If you're a hard teacher,
you would think law is impossible to understand
and just drive yourself away from law. We have
a teacher who actually puts like a lot of effort
into making sure you understand the law. And
if you don't understand it, how can you understand
it? I think that's really important, especially
when trying to understand something abstract
like law. How about you, Marwa? I definitely
think the teacher is super important because
I think in any subject, a teacher can really
make or break a class. I think especially for
a subject like law, it's not just about understanding,
but also nurturing that interest and that passion.
And if you have a teacher that doesn't really
care. per se, then maybe that could have a student
losing interest in law. So yeah, I think it's
really important to have a good teacher. And
you, Zainab, what do you think about this issue?
Yeah, I would definitely agree with both of them.
So I took grade 11 law and grade 12 law, and
both of my teachers were incredible. But my grade
12 law teacher in particular, I really, really
appreciate everything she did for our class.
She was so great in helping everybody. be more
engaged. And so honestly, probably every single
day we would have like lengthy class discussions
about the cases that were in the news or what
was in our textbook. And it honestly helped my
interest in law go from probably like a seven
straight to like a 10. Wow. That's great because
we recently recorded a podcast with teachers,
high school law teachers to get their perspectives
as well. So it's really interesting to hear what
you all have to say too about. your experiences
in a high school law class, as well as your experiences
working with really fun teachers who are engaging.
So my next question for you all is this, if you
knew someone who was in grade 10, and they were
thinking about what electives they could take
in the next year, what would you say to convince
them to take a high school law class? So Marwa,
how about we go to you first? I was actually
in this position with my friend, she's in grade
10. And I convinced her to take uh grade 11 law
even though she was she's really scared of like
speaking in class or kind of public speaking
but i convinced her because i think that the
law class is not only fun because you get to
learn about law but you also learn like a lot
of different skills again law involves a lot
of different subjects so when you start learning
about law you learn a lot of things with it and
having those skills is important for anything
I think having a law class or at least a basic
understanding of law under your belt helps you
with any career you want to go into into the
future that's great and Zaina what would you
say to someone who is thinking about taking law
in grade 11 or in grade 12 and they were kind
of on the edge and they don't know whether to
do it or not I would honestly tell them that
the law is not something to be scared of at all
um and that it does have an intimidating reputation
but it's really not that bad at all um and that
it's actually like one of the most powerful tools
that we have to fight for justice and to protect
our rights and you know to create like the kind
of equitable society that we all want to see
and and being able to do that really can start
from honestly just taking a grade 11 or 12 law
course yeah how about you joel I would tell them
that you should definitely take law. I mean,
law really impacts all aspects of your life.
And like by knowing law, you could truly know
what rights you have and what the police can
do to you or not do to you. And I think that's
really important. And well, law also has a lot
of good career pathways. Like you choose to become
a lawyer, which are like a great career. You
could choose to like work as a government official.
Like if you want to go into politics, you need
law. So I think that law really opens a lot of
opportunities for you. Let's move on now to a
different topic, which is the essays that you
all wrote. So I read your essays and they were
fantastic. And I mean, you all dealt with very
interesting and very serious topics such as Bill
21, the decriminalization of drugs, intimate
partner violence. I wanted to ask you all, how
did you decide on the topic that you wanted to
submit as part of this essay contest? So, Joel,
how about we go back to you first? I chose the
decriminalization of the personal use of drugs
because I was going to write an essay for my
class. And at first, it seemed really easy, like
a straightforward essay where I argue that Canada
should not decriminalize the personal use of
all drugs because there's no reason to and probably
worsen the drug crisis. And I always found researching
the effects of drug really interesting to me.
So this would be like a great research journey
for myself. But I'll actually end up arguing
the complete opposite after doing more research.
I found that really fun. But yeah, that's why.
Yeah, and we'll get to how you did your research
later. But Mara, how about you? How did you decide
on your topic? I decided on my topic because
it is not only personal to me and my family,
but I think it speaks to a lot of other issues
that we have in society. Like Bill 21 presents
problems that are present in other aspects of
law, not just in Canada, but in other places.
And I thought it was really important to... bring
awareness about that. And I wanted to show why
this is not only a problem for the people affected,
but for all of society and how this kind of moves
us backwards. And Zainab, how did you choose
your topic? So selecting my topic was honestly
a no -brainer for me. And so leading up to finding
out about the essay competition, I had read,
and I distinctly remember this, it was a Global
News article. And I was talking about how domestic
violence was on the rise in Canada, which was
not only surprising to me, but it was also a
big concern as somebody who is passionate about
women's rights. And so I honestly thought that
this would be such a good opportunity to further
flesh out my thoughts and ideas on the topic
and then be able to explore preventative measures
to intimate partner violence. Right. And how
was the research process like for all of your
essays? Have you ever written an essay like this
before? Zainab, how about we go back to you first?
Yeah, so actually, I wrote an essay similar to
this in my grade 11 law class. And I think the
prompt was like a topic concerning Canadian law
or something. And I remember I chose to do mine
on the decriminalization of illicit drugs for
personal use. And so the structure of that essay
was pretty similar to this one. But that's as
far as like my prior experience in writing an
essay of this nature goes. And how about you,
Marwa? So I have written analytical and opinion
-based essays or texts before because I like
to write. And I had some previous knowledge on
Bill 21 because I did a project on it in history.
I've had debates with my teacher about it. So
it was really a matter of expanding my knowledge
and reading more articles and seeing like the
arguments being made for it and how different
sides perceive it so that I could form my argument.
And Jaal, how about you? So this was the first
actual time I've written like a research -heavy
essay like this. So I have to thank my... a law
teacher, Mr. Stone, for teaching me the process.
So basically what you do is like you take a list
of a source, you make a list of sources that
you could possibly use for information, and you
want to write a thesis that includes the three
main points of the essay that you're going to
write. After that, you want to search through
those sources for nuggets of information like
you're mining for gold. When you find, like,
useful information, you write these nuggets on
a cue card, and then you note the source you
got this nugget from. And then you just keep
continuing searching for nuggets inside your
sources. And at the end, you have, like, a bunch
of cue cards full of information that can help
you write your essay. At the end, I had about
50. And the next step was to, like, separate
the nuggets depending on which point they argue
best and arrange them in a way where, like, they
flow from one point to another. And then at the
end, you just have to fill in the words and you
can make like a really good essay or like each
point flows into the next one. It's like it's
really well worded. It's like it's perfect. Yeah.
You know, that's a really interesting way of
like visualizing how to write an essay. Like
I feel like my strategy is also similar to you,
Jaws. Like I can read something and then from
that reading, I'll take away like a bunch of
key points that I want to include. And those
are like the nuggets that you're talking about.
And usually when I would look at my list. It's
all about like kind of putting the puzzle pieces
together and like seeing how I can use all of
this and transform it into a way that sounds
cohesive. And that's also argumentative and persuasive.
So very interesting way of doing your essay.
And I really appreciate that visualization. So
when you all did your research for these essays
or while you were drafting them, was there anything
that you learned that stood out to you in this
process? So Jal, how about we go back to you?
The easiest was definitely writing the words
between the information for the essay since all
you need to do was just find out which words
sound the best. And the hardest part was definitely
researching the information itself since like
most sources nowadays have like a paywall stopping
your research. And then another hard part was
probably choosing how to separate it. Like so
many points of information argue more than one
topic. So you really need to like critically
think on how you could use each point of information
most effectively. Right. And Mauro, what did
you learn through this process? I honestly learned
that there are a lot of problems in society that
just continue because people who aren't directly
affected aren't aware of that. So something that
was easy in writing my essay was my argument.
I knew what I wanted to say and what I wanted
to highlight. And probably the hardest part,
though, was was wording. So even though I know
what I wanted to say, I had to be persuasive
and make a strong point without sounding too
personal, because, again, I'm trying to. convince
people about how this is a problem to like all
of Canadian society and all of Canadian law and
not just one singular person or one singular
group of people. So I learned that it's important
to highlight why it affects more than just one
person. And Zainab, how about you? So I learned
quite a bit about domestic violence in general
as I was writing this essay. But one thing that
came as a surprise to me, which retrospectively
is probably kind of obvious, is the fact that
DV is not limited to abusive interactions between
two spouses. And it can also take place between
like a mother and a son or a mother and daughter
or like father and son. um so that was surprising
for me because in my head i'd always thought
like domestic violence okay that means like two
spouses um but i think that it's like important
to to not only recognize that but also like um
be able to acknowledge it and like open up that
conversation um around the dynamics that fall
under domestic violence um because i think it
would help make a lot of survivors feel more
comfortable with coming forward and seeking justice
And since the essays were all about law and social
change, this might be a very big question, but
how do you all see law as being a vehicle for
social change? Jal, how about we go back to you
again? So I learned that law and society are
like directly linked. Like sometimes society
pushes for legal change, like with the decriminalization
of marijuana. And other times law drives social
change by changing how people in society act
and perceive certain actions. Law forms or break
stigmas and stigmas directly affect society and
lead to social change. So what's really important
is that we are like electing lawmakers that push
social change in the direction that is right
to us. And through that, we'll create social
change that's perfect for our society. And Marwa,
how about you? That definitely is a big question.
I think law is a vehicle for social change because
law has the power to shape society, not just
because of what's legal or illegal or the basic
things that people think of when they think of
law, but because it really does form societal
norms and how society functions or thinks. Law
dates back to... all kinds of things in anthropology,
like society started with law. And that shapes
a bunch of ways of how people think and cultural
norms and all kinds of things that law affects.
So because law affects all those things, changing
the law is what can change those things. And
those are such big changes. So if done right,
those can also be very good changes for the good
of society as a whole. Totally true. And Zainab,
how about you? I think that the solution for
a lot of social issues that we're facing today
are in the law. And so like whether that's like
environmental issues or racial inequality or
something of that sort, there's usually something
that we can do relating to the law to mitigate
like the negative effects of those issues. So
like, for example, we have like environmental.
protection acts or human rights codes that are
effective and significant in addressing these
social issues. So in that sense, I think that
the law is probably the best vehicle, so to speak,
for social change. Honestly, I'm very amazed
by the three of you, because if I were in your
position back in high school, I was definitely
not as cerebral or thoughtful of these things.
So you guys have all been totally amazing. There's
a reason why your essays were selected as part
of this contest. But let's go back to a more
casual conversation. And you can be honest with
me. Who here is actually thinking about pursuing
a career in law? Is anyone thinking about that?
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. I know. Okay, it's
my backup plan. Okay, so all three of you. Okay,
that's great. Like being a lawyer specifically
or are there other avenues within the legal profession
that you are all interested in? Joel, how about
we go to you first? So law is definitely an option
for me because I love law and especially finding
cases. So I would love to be a lawyer. I also
really, really love neuroscience and learning
about the brain, which is why my dream career
is like a neurosurgeon. But law is definitely
my backup plan. Those are like very diametrically
opposed topics like neuroscience and law. I mean,
there's health law available. That's a sector
of law that I find to be very interesting. So
you never know. I mean, there could be some sort
of transfer of knowledge there, too. Mara, how
about you? I do want to be a lawyer. I specifically
want to be either a crown lawyer or if not a
crown lawyer, then a family lawyer. And that's
specifically because even if I don't be a lawyer,
I want a career in law to. Kind of help make
a change. I feel like having a career in law
can help you make those changes that you aspire
to make, even from someone who's in high school
and being this young. And also just because I
want to expand my knowledge in a subject that
I have really come to enjoy. That's great. And
Zainab, how about you? So I definitely want.
to work in the legal field because I want a career
where I can contribute to some of the causes
that I'm passionate about, such as advocating
for victims of domestic violence. And I think
that that can be best done through working in
law. But as for what exactly that's going to
look like specifically in terms of one career
title or description, I'm not too sure. So right
now I'm kind of still... in the water about what
that's going to look like. But I know that I
want to work in the legal field. Yeah, that's
really amazing because I think you've all taken
really great steps forward to kind of go into
it headfirst and learn about these topics that
you're passionate about and writing about them.
I think it's really good. But before we get into
other things, we're going to do a small little
lightning round of fun questions with everybody
just to kind of cap off the episode on a lighter
note. So I'm just going to ask a couple of questions
and feel free to answer. Feel free to just shout
your answers out. That's totally fine. But we'll
go from there. All right. What is your favorite
weekend activity? Driving. Driving? Like just
like driving on the highway or like? Just driving
car. It's fun. Okay. Like just driving on the
street or like anywhere in particular? Probably
on the highway. That's the best part. Okay. All
right. Did you just get your license? Yeah. That's
why. I see. But no, that's totally exciting.
Okay. Next question. What is your favorite TV
show? I really like Moon Knight if you watch
Marvel shows. Okay, I did watch Moon Knight.
That was great. How would you rank it above,
I mean, in terms of all the MCU shows? I think
it's, honestly, it might be my first or second
favorite. Okay. WandaVision is tied. I really
liked WandaVision too. Oh my gosh, you should
talk to my best friend Lauren. She loves those
two shows to death. So she is in the same boat
as you are. I'm actually not a big TV person,
but I watched Prison Break with my family a while
back and that was pretty good. Oh my gosh, I
feel like Prison Break is like one of those shows
that every high schooler watches at some point
or another. I remember when I was in grade 10,
my friend was like, have you watched Prison Break
yet? And we watched the first episode. in like
the band rehearsal room that's like a very vivid
memory i only watched the first episode so i
don't know anything else that happens afterwards
uh but anyways moving on uh favorite movie this
is kind of simple but favorite movie does anybody
have a favorite movie yeah megamind okay classic
yup probably the spider -man across the spider
-verse movie okay that's great when's the new
one coming out do you know i think next year
it was supposed to come out last year but it's
coming out next year yeah and maro how about
you I really love Coraline. Oh, classic. Love
it. And probably the Spider -Man movies as well.
Just all of them. Do you have a favorite Spider
-Man? I really like Andrew Garfield's Spider
-Man. Okay. Yep. Yep. Okay. I see that. Yep.
I agree. I like him too. All right. Okay. This
is another question for you. What is your favorite
high school class and why is it law? I'm just
kidding. You don't have to tell me that. What
are you all planning to do for your undergrad
if you're going to undergrad or if you're going
to college? So what are your post -secondary
plans at this point? So my dream is definitely
Bachelor of Health Sciences at McMaster because
I really want to go into medicine. Right. Yeah.
I, for my undergrad, it will probably do something
relating to legal studies, either here at Waterloo,
which is near where I live, or I actually would
love to study in the UK at Manchester. That's
cool. Yeah. As for other classes, I really love
music. So I love my music. Oh my gosh, I was
a music person too. Yes. What instrument did
you play? I played the clarinet. What do you
play? I play the viola and I play violin. Whoa.
Oh my gosh. You're a strings person. Okay. That's
great. We love that. We respect that. I am going
back and forth between criminology and forensic
psychology. I haven't accepted either one yet
just because I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards
criminology at Ontario Tech. Oh, that's very
cool. Well, thank you so much, everybody, for
joining me here today. I think we had a lot of
fun talking about your interests, but also about
your essays and why law, high school law class
is important. Before we end up, does anybody
have any other things that they want to say to
anyone who might be hesitant about learning about
the law? You should definitely take it. Honestly,
if like you're wondering whether you should take
grade 11 law or not, just take it. Worst case
scenario, you can drop the course, but at least
give it a shot. Oh, yeah, I totally agree. I
think anyone should give it a chance and find
that it's actually a subject worth trying out,
even if you don't pursue it. It's honestly a
really fun class and a really interesting subject.
So if you're unsure, go for it. I bet that if
you're interested in it at all, you're going
to have a blast. Yeah, for sure. Because no one
in my law class actually hated law. Everyone
had so much fun, especially the debate and the
mock trials. They're the best part. You're going
to love law. See, that's so amazing. Well, thank
you everybody for joining me here today. I think
we had a great time. Thank you so much for sharing
your stories and your passions and your interests.
I think other students who might be listening
to this show might be more inclined to think
about a career in law or taking a high school
law class. So thank you so much for joining.
And yay, I really liked this. It was great. Thank
you so much for having us. Yeah, thank you. Thank
you for tapping into this episode of Law Syrup.
Law Syrup is produced by me, Herman Wong, and
the Ontario Justice Education Network. For more
information and for accompanying resources, check
out ojen .ca and our show notes. See you next
time.