Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk
with special guests about hot topics in Canadian
law. This podcast is a co -production with the
Ontario Justice Education Network, also known
as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman Wong. Let's tap
it. Before we begin, please know that this show
is not intended to be legal advice or a replacement
for a legal representative. Hey, everyone. It's
great to be back for another episode of Law Syrup.
Today, you'll hear my discussion with my friend,
Dara Coombe. Dara is a family lawyer, and we
met through the Federation of Asian Canadian
Lawyers, where we both are on the mentorship
committee. Dara is an incredible guy, and I knew
I wanted to feature him on the show, especially
to talk about his area of practice, how he got
into family law, and what he enjoys most about
being a family lawyer today. Here's our discussion.
all right so i'm here with dara right now i am
so happy that he's here because we've been talking
about doing this for a while so i'm happy that
we can find the time to do this dara how are
you i'm good thank you thank you for having me
uh you know i'm a fan of the show okay thank
you so i'm very uh happy that you asked me to
join you today well that's great because i was
like okay we're friends you know from working
at the federation of asian canadian lawyers together
shout out to faculty yeah and i was like wait
a minute dara does family law so be perfect for
a show for family laws so here you are now and
i'm so happy you said yes so thank you for being
here thank you and thank you for having me okay
so before we get started how about we tell the
listeners about your law school experience so
what was that like for you where did you go to
school um tell us all about it sure um so i went
to bond university which is in australia um i
didn't get any summers off so it was basically
three years compressed into two um it was fine
i basically lived in the library for most of
my stay there um but uh when i did have down
time i was next to a very long strip of beach
um called surfers paradise and so the ocean and
the beach was incredible but it was yeah i i
enjoyed my experience um but you know coming
back with a little bit of a challenge because
of the whole certificate of qualifications and
like getting doing that rigmarole and then looking
for a job after but uh overall i enjoyed my experience
at bond university and then i ended up doing
a master's of law at osgoode anyway so yeah because
you grew up in toronto right i grew up in toronto
yes so born and raised yeah so now you're back
here you're doing family law and what kind of
drew you to the area of family law was it something
that you always wanted to do or was it something
where you went to law school you took a family
law course and you're like you know what that
seems really interesting and i want to you know
explore that area a bit more so tell us more
about that Shockingly, I did not take a family
law course. So what I learned from family law
was from the bar materials initially. And then
when I articled, that's where I kind of got my
hands wet or my feet wet, I guess, doing family
law. And when I got called to the bar, I opened
up my own practice. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes,
I did. I had it for a few years. And I was doing
civil files, I was doing real estate, and then
I was doing family law as well. And so just my
experience grew. And then when I closed my firm,
I joined a firm that did exclusively family law
and real estate. And so I just kept on taking
off from there. But I think the point where...
solidified for me that i wanted to do family
law or continue on doing it was when i had my
first family law trial and uh i won yay me congratulations
thanks um and and all issues were live but the
way that the mother uh because i represented
the mother the way that she thanked me at the
end uh with tears and i think it was very in
that moment i understood like she had finality
that she really wanted for the longest time from
her marriage and she didn't get it until then
and so that's when i was like okay i think this
is where i belong this is what i want to do and
so i've been doing it since well that's amazing
and for the listeners who might not know you
know We've probably heard about family law, you
know, by people talking about divorce lawyers.
But what does a family lawyer actually do? Like,
are they concentrated in one type of practice?
Or are there many different things that a family
lawyer can do, like child support, spousal support?
Talk us through a little bit more about that.
Yeah, well, those are definitely issues that
are in family law. Family law really is involving
the family relationship. So it is about the kids.
It also is about child support, spousal support,
equalization, parenting issues, such as decision
-making responsibility, formerly. I guess, custody.
Because they change some of the wording, right?
Yeah, so we don't use custody anymore. It's decision
-making responsibility. And then we also say
parenting time. So that's when, how much time
the kids are spending with mom and dad, which
ultimately will affect who pays who or how much,
sorry, and how much between mom and dad or the
parents. and we can also involve third party
to assist us such as mediators or arbitrators
there's also collaborative family law where lawyers
don't go to court and they won't go to court
they will work with other professionals that's
why it's collaborative and working with other
professionals to assist the parties in finding
a resolution to their matter And there's been
a huge shift towards litigants or spouses to
try to resolve out of court to the point that,
you know, even in the application itself, when
you launch an application, a part of it says
that, you know, you will try to resolve family
law issues by using out of court dispute resolution
options if it is appropriate for your case, such
as mediation. So it's not just about court. A
lot of the times we actually do negotiate and
try to resolve out of court. It does save money
for the clients generally as well. So you talked
a little bit about what drew you to this area
of practice. Now, in your day -to -day work right
now, what are some of the biggest practice areas
that you encounter on a daily basis? Yeah, so
me, it's, I hate to say it, but it is really...
fighting over parenting time. It is fighting
about assets, about selling the matrimonial home,
getting certain assets valued, businesses valued.
So we're really looking to figure out how we
can resolve the financial issues simultaneously
with the parenting issues. So that's kind of
like the routine issues, I guess, that I deal
with on a regular basis. So let's take a step
back right now and kind of look at family law
from a bird's eye view. So, of course, family
law might deal with marriages. So I was wondering
in Canada, what is considered a legal marriage?
It is the lawful union of two persons to the
exclusion of all others. And in Canada, you'd
have to be at least 18 years old to be married
without the consent of your parents. But if you're,
I guess, 16 to 17, you could get married with
written consent of both parents. I see. So what's
the difference between a marriage and a common
law partnership? Right. So one of the main issues
at the end, if you are a common law, is that
you don't have the ability to equalize. So there's
equalization. You don't get that as a common
law partner or in a common law relationship.
That's only available to those who are actually
married. So when we're talking about equalization,
we're talking about the net family property of
the... husband and wife um when we're doing the
calculations and again it's only for the spouses
and not necessarily for common law i see so there's
certain entitlements that a married couple might
have that common law partners might not have
is that correct yeah so If you're in a common
law partnership, you can't divorce because it's
not considered a legal marriage. But I'm sure
that, of course, family lawyers deal a lot with
divorce. So I was wondering, how do divorces
actually work in Canada or Ontario? Like, how
does someone start the proceedings in order to
get a divorce? A divorce is a legal process.
You do have to apply for it. And typically, a
person would have to... wait a year after their
separation to apply for the divorce and it's
that in between time of the the one year that
usually spouses are going to seek legal assistance
to come to some type of resolution with regards
to the financial aspects and the parenting aspect
as well i see so When someone comes to you and
they want to get a divorce, do they usually have
a plan of what they want in mind? Or is that
the family lawyer's job to kind of figure it
out? It's a mix. Sometimes I do get clients that
say that they've spoken to their husband or wife
about what they, in principle, agree to. But
sometimes, given the volatility of their relationship,
that has never happened. And so we end up starting
from the ground. in terms of what they are seeking,
what is in the best interest of the children
or child, and what does support look like? What
do they need to, you know, carry on, at least
for the interim? But we do have like a long -term
vision in terms of like what we hope to get for
our clients. Right. So how did those negotiations
kind of work with the other partners' counsel?
Do you meet via Zoom just to see what each client
is amenable to? How do you determine what each
person is willing to compromise on? So I usually
like to start off with a call with the opposing
counsel or the other side to see what their client's
position is. Is there any wiggle room? What can
we come to a resolution in terms of temporarily
while we continue to work things out? So I do
like to start off with a call. Well, usually
I start off with a letter saying, hey, I represent
so and so, you know, please provide me with your
client's financial statement in the interim.
I know that little Johnny and Susie have been
under the care of both mom and dad. And so let's
figure out a schedule since mom has moved out
in terms of sharing time with little Johnny and
Susie. When someone tries to get a divorce, do
you have to agree with the other partner that
they are going to get a divorce? Or can I just
say, well, you might not agree to this, but I
want to get a divorce. There's a separation that
needs to happen. And that's usually when there
is no reasonable prospect of reconciliation between
the parties. You can't really separate in silence.
There's got to be like one party will have to
say, like, I will separate. And if they don't,
then we're going to have to look at other factors
that would. indicate give indication that you
know there was a separation whether they've been
holding themselves as a couple or sorry they
stopped they stopped having meals together they
stopped doing certain public things out that
they normally do they don't go on vacations anymore
they tell their close families and friends that
they've separated and so there's a lot of factors
that are that we look at but generally and most
often the time something did happen and someone
either left or someone saying i don't want to
be in this relationship anymore sometimes they're
still thinking about and when they want to pull
the trigger per se in terms of like ending their
relationship i mean i have um But in a letter
saying that, hey, I represent husband or wife
and they want to separate from you and consider
this as a day of separation. And, you know, so
-and -so is going to be moving out or so -and
-so is going to be living in the basement. Yeah.
And then we just try to figure out parameters
that are respectful for both, if possible. And
how long does the divorce process usually take?
So let's say if you waited that year and then
you applied, you're really in the court's hands.
It can be a few months. It could be many, many
months. But that's just for you to get your divorce
order and divorce certificate. Yeah. So I guess
it depends on how complicated the relationship
is, how amicable the separation might be, how
willing each partner is willing to compromise.
And of course, you know, court timelines and
such as well, that will affect how long your
divorce process might take. So let's talk about
another issue right now, which is the concept
of spousal support. So I would presume that that
would be related to divorce. But what exactly
is spousal support and how is it determined?
Sure. So basically, spousal support is, as it
sounds, it's support paid from one spouse to
the other. And unlike child support, you'd have
to show entitlement to be able to. obtain support
the first way is through contractual contractual
can mean a order or it could be some type of
an agreement that says if our relationship ends
i pay you x amount of dollars for x amount of
time shall we say uh it could be compensatory
and so compensatory could be is when you know
there's been a sacrifice made and the one spouse
has suffered an economic disadvantage a common
example of that is when one spouse has given
up their career to raise the kids that would
be an example of a compensatory basis and then
on a needs basis is when for some reason one
spouse doesn't have the skill set Maybe there's
like a disability of some sort and they just
can't work and then they need to rely on their
spouse. And so that's on a needs basis. And so
the entitlements, it could be one, there could
be more. You just have to prove that you are
entitled to support before we figure out where
you fall in terms of how much or how much one
spouse should be paying the other. And we look
at a lot of different factors. We look at the
age and health of the parties, how long the relationship
has been. Are there any children involved? So
there are many factors that we take into consideration.
And when there is spouse support paid on a monthly
basis, you know, we would have it in writing
and we would say, you know, the payer spouse
is going to be able to deduct it and it becomes
income to the recipient spouse. I see. And how
long does spousal support last for? Or can it
last, I don't know, indefinitely? Yeah, that's
a good question. Depending on the age and the
length of the marriage, there is something called
the Rule of 65, where if you add the length of
the marriage... plus the age of the recipient,
and if it's more than 65, then the spousal support
advisory guidelines can't really give you a determination
as to for how long. It just says indefinite.
So it's subject to circumstances in terms of
when or how much lower one should pay or if it
should stop at all. You mentioned the spousal
support advisory guidelines. I remember learning
about this in law school. But for the listeners
who don't know, what exactly are they and how
do they factor into the determination of spousal
support? Yes. So the spousal guidelines, it's
not law. It's just a guideline that is used by
court to figure out, you know, the quantum and
duration. And it's very case by case specific.
And again, you got to make out your entitlement
claim before we figure out. how much one spouse
should be paying the other. And it encompasses
looking at some of the factors that I spoke about
earlier. And what about child support? Because
that's different from spousal support. So what
are the differences between child support and
spousal support? Child support has the child
support guidelines. So it's legislated. It's
in there. It says, you know, if you have... x
amount of children and your income is so and
so this is how much you'll be paying for them
on a monthly basis but rewinding back remember
i was talking to you about you know people fighting
over parenting time and how parenting time can
affect how much support one pays the other so
if you know little johnny and little susie are
actually spending near equal time between mom
and dad the child support would be set off. So
let's say we've determined that mom's child support
is $1 ,000 and we say dad's child support obligation
is $700, then mom would just be paying dad $300
every month. I see. So there's a lot of math
involved. Lots of numbers, a lot of considerations
in place. Do you have any tools to help you to
determine what the actual amount might be? Because
I'm assuming that there's so many factors and
there must be something that you might be able
to use to assist you with this process. There's
a common software that... Most of us use its
divorce mate. We plug in the numbers, like how
many children that they have, how old is the
recipient party, how long the marriage was or
how long cohabitation. And then we can even put
in other variables such as, you know, Section
7 expenses. We can also calculate, you know,
life insurance. It's a very handy tool and a
lot of family law lawyers use it in Ontario.
Right. And I'm assuming that, you know, things
like spousal support and child support are probably
contested a lot. So when you use something like
DivorceMate, is there less of a possibility that
the numbers might be contested because it is
like, quote unquote, an objective software? Or
do you still see that there are challenges? Less
on the child because it's legislated. It really
is. It says how much you make and how many kids
you have. This is how much you're paying. So
that's the easier part. It's the spouse's part
in terms of it is numbers that we as lawyers
can use to kind of negotiate where can we land
in terms of the spouses and what they're willing
to pay and what they can pay. And we're looking
at their circumstances as well. So let's switch
gears a little bit and let's talk a little bit
more about your experience working with family
law. Based on your experience working with clients,
what are some of the biggest misconceptions of
what family law is today? On the client side,
I'd say that in terms of separation, a lot of
clients think that you have to physically separate.
to be quote unquote separated but you actually
can be separated while living under the same
roof that's interesting yeah so you know the
parents the spouses could be sleeping in different
bedrooms one in the basement or whatever and
they just operate in a way that they're not together
they don't speak to each other much they kind
of live their own independent lives sometimes
Yeah, so that's one misconception that I run
into a lot. Another one is the how immediate
divorces can happen. And I think that the general
public, or sorry, I don't want to say generalized,
but like most of the time what I do get is I
want a divorce right now. They're thinking in
their mind that the divorce is the separation
combined together or the divorce ends everything.
I mean, it... does provide some type of finality
but it's they don't think about the separation
date they don't think about the gap the year
that they have to wait to apply um but one thing
that i wanted to say was uh i think as family
lawyers i think we're underestimated in terms
of maybe the legal profession or maybe the work
that we do uh overall because i think maybe when
someone says you're a family lawyer all you do
is fight over money assets and kids yes we do
but i think the missing part is that a lot don't
think about how family law intersects with other
areas of law as well so you know we are like
there's an international component where we're
talking about the hay convention and like you
know dealing with uh a parent who has abducted
a child somewhere else in another jurisdiction
We're routinely dealing with pensions. We're
dealing with the selling of property. So we're
dealing with real estate. We're also dealing
with taxation because we're dealing with disposition
costs and how it affects one spouse tax -wise.
So again, family law really hits a lot of other
areas of law. Most commonly for me, it's actually
the... intersection of family and criminal and
many times you know mom or dad has criminal charges
uh brought on against the spouse and that creates
further complications in terms of being able
to exercise parenting time um so yeah i i think
that family law is very cool in a sense that
you know it touches on other areas of law so
in your line of work because you are dealing
with cases that are very emotionally charged
how do you keep a balance between you know having
emotions at work and doing your job as a family
lawyer yeah it was very it was a struggle in
the beginning because I kind of personalized
it like that their issues became my issues in
a sense in a weird way but I've learned to kind
of cut that cord and like not be you know it
is that's their emotion and I need to be the
lawyer and I need to advocate and do the best
that I can for them and that means that I have
to be objective I have to not get into their
emotions and leave the emotions out of it for
me to be able to do the job effectively and also
I kind of use if we're talking about emotions
I kind of have figured out a way to transform
emotion to kind of fuel me to fight more passionately
for my clients so when you know they're in a
rough spot i'm using my the emotion of like them
being in a rough spot to really fuel me to get
them out of that rough situation whatever that
is right so there is a benefit sometimes to feeling
those emotions and letting them kind of influence
how you negotiate with the client and how you
approach things and make sure that they feel
comfortable through the process. So what else
do you do when you have clients who come to you
and they're coming from a relationship that might
not have been the best? How do you deal with
their emotions and how do you make sure that
they feel comfortable with the entire process?
It's definitely a balancing act. You definitely
want to show that you are listening, being an
active listener. You want to show empathy. You
want to show that you can at the same time confidently
and are able to handle their matter. You kind
of do have to demonstrate a level of confidence
to be able to handle their matter because they're
going to be interesting. you to advocate for
them to resolve their issue and I think they
would like to see that in someone who's going
to help them but I'm also when I'm meeting the
client and especially whether they're alone or
they bring someone with them at a meeting like
I am looking for non -verbal cues as well in
terms of like how this relationship is affecting
them and you know sometimes the person will defer
to whoever they brought to do most of the speaking
which i kind of don't like but it really does
tell me that you know it could be something very
triggering if it came out of them um and maybe
it gives me insight into like how bad it is for
them but i i try to demonstrate active listening
to really ask the important questions to get
to the root of the issues and to see where we
can find a resolution. So, you know, you talked
about winning that trial and having this woman
come up to you in tears, thanking you for helping
her ever achieve some sort of finality. I was
curious to know if there were any other rewarding
moments that you've had so far as a family lawyer
that encourage you to keep on doing what you're
doing right now. You know what, when we, it doesn't
even have to be a trial, whether it, Even if
I am successful on a motion or even if I'm just
signing a separation agreement with a client,
that already is very satisfying in that, you
know, I've helped them conclude this part, this
chapter of their life. They may not have gotten
everything. They may have gotten most of the
things that they want. I don't know. Like, depends
case by case. But when we sign and we finish
signing that agreement. It's great. It's like
now they can move on with their lives. They know
how they're going to take care of the kids. They
know how much money to expect coming to them
or how much they're going to have to pay. So
in that aspect, it is rewarding because you have
assisted them in closing a chapter of their life
and they're able to start a new one. That's amazing.
And I guess my last question for you is, you
know, if you look back on your days as a law
school student and you were telling him that,
oh my gosh, one day I'm going to be a family
lawyer, how do you think they would react? Me,
if I went back and told myself, I would probably
say you're out of your mind. I don't think I
would ever do family, but here we are. But I
would probably convince myself that, hey, the
work is worth it. The people you're helping,
you're making a huge impact. This is the most
sensitive part of their life in terms of when
there is a dissolution of the relationship. They're
coming to you at a very vulnerable time. And
you can do it. You can help them. Yeah, that's
what I would say. That's amazing. Well, Dara,
thank you so much for being here with me today,
for joining me on the show. Where can the people
find you? They can find me on LinkedIn. Dara
Khuam. Shout out to Dara Khuam. Anyways, thank
you, Dara, for being here. Appreciate it. Thank
you. Thank you for tapping into this episode
of Law Syrup. On the next episode, we talk to
a key part of our audience, students. These are
students who were the top three winners of OGEN's
Social Change Essay Contest from last year. Law
Syrup is produced by me, Herman Wong, and the
Ontario Justice Education Network. For more information
and for accompanying resources, check out ojen
.ca and our show notes. See you next time.