WEBVTT 00:00:01.299 --> 00:00:03.540 Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk 00:00:03.540 --> 00:00:05.679 with special guests about hot topics in Canadian 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:08.359 law. This podcast is a co -production with the 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:10.779 Ontario Justice Education Network, also known 00:00:10.779 --> 00:00:14.199 as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman Wong. Let's tap 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:22.359 it. Before we begin, please know that this show 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:24.960 is not intended to be legal advice or a replacement 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.570 for a legal representative. Hey, everyone. It's 00:00:28.570 --> 00:00:30.949 great to be back for another episode of Law Syrup. 00:00:31.109 --> 00:00:33.390 Today, you'll hear my discussion with my friend, 00:00:33.469 --> 00:00:36.270 Dara Coombe. Dara is a family lawyer, and we 00:00:36.270 --> 00:00:37.990 met through the Federation of Asian Canadian 00:00:37.990 --> 00:00:40.070 Lawyers, where we both are on the mentorship 00:00:40.070 --> 00:00:43.130 committee. Dara is an incredible guy, and I knew 00:00:43.130 --> 00:00:45.289 I wanted to feature him on the show, especially 00:00:45.289 --> 00:00:47.850 to talk about his area of practice, how he got 00:00:47.850 --> 00:00:50.609 into family law, and what he enjoys most about 00:00:50.609 --> 00:00:53.530 being a family lawyer today. Here's our discussion. 00:00:56.200 --> 00:00:59.020 all right so i'm here with dara right now i am 00:00:59.020 --> 00:01:00.920 so happy that he's here because we've been talking 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:02.979 about doing this for a while so i'm happy that 00:01:02.979 --> 00:01:05.159 we can find the time to do this dara how are 00:01:05.159 --> 00:01:07.799 you i'm good thank you thank you for having me 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.379 uh you know i'm a fan of the show okay thank 00:01:10.379 --> 00:01:14.200 you so i'm very uh happy that you asked me to 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:16.060 join you today well that's great because i was 00:01:16.060 --> 00:01:18.379 like okay we're friends you know from working 00:01:18.379 --> 00:01:20.540 at the federation of asian canadian lawyers together 00:01:20.540 --> 00:01:23.780 shout out to faculty yeah and i was like wait 00:01:23.780 --> 00:01:26.560 a minute dara does family law so be perfect for 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:29.560 a show for family laws so here you are now and 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:31.480 i'm so happy you said yes so thank you for being 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:33.400 here thank you and thank you for having me okay 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:37.060 so before we get started how about we tell the 00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:40.359 listeners about your law school experience so 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:42.019 what was that like for you where did you go to 00:01:42.019 --> 00:01:46.060 school um tell us all about it sure um so i went 00:01:46.060 --> 00:01:49.859 to bond university which is in australia um i 00:01:49.859 --> 00:01:52.379 didn't get any summers off so it was basically 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.120 three years compressed into two um it was fine 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:58.819 i basically lived in the library for most of 00:01:58.819 --> 00:02:02.879 my stay there um but uh when i did have down 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:05.840 time i was next to a very long strip of beach 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:11.060 um called surfers paradise and so the ocean and 00:02:11.060 --> 00:02:15.099 the beach was incredible but it was yeah i i 00:02:15.099 --> 00:02:17.719 enjoyed my experience um but you know coming 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:19.479 back with a little bit of a challenge because 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.719 of the whole certificate of qualifications and 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.759 like getting doing that rigmarole and then looking 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:29.560 for a job after but uh overall i enjoyed my experience 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:32.099 at bond university and then i ended up doing 00:02:32.099 --> 00:02:36.060 a master's of law at osgoode anyway so yeah because 00:02:36.060 --> 00:02:38.240 you grew up in toronto right i grew up in toronto 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:40.759 yes so born and raised yeah so now you're back 00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:44.030 here you're doing family law and what kind of 00:02:44.030 --> 00:02:46.949 drew you to the area of family law was it something 00:02:46.949 --> 00:02:49.409 that you always wanted to do or was it something 00:02:49.409 --> 00:02:52.110 where you went to law school you took a family 00:02:52.110 --> 00:02:53.550 law course and you're like you know what that 00:02:53.550 --> 00:02:55.669 seems really interesting and i want to you know 00:02:55.669 --> 00:02:58.030 explore that area a bit more so tell us more 00:02:58.030 --> 00:03:01.009 about that Shockingly, I did not take a family 00:03:01.009 --> 00:03:05.169 law course. So what I learned from family law 00:03:05.169 --> 00:03:08.389 was from the bar materials initially. And then 00:03:08.389 --> 00:03:11.750 when I articled, that's where I kind of got my 00:03:11.750 --> 00:03:16.610 hands wet or my feet wet, I guess, doing family 00:03:16.610 --> 00:03:20.370 law. And when I got called to the bar, I opened 00:03:20.370 --> 00:03:22.810 up my own practice. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes, 00:03:22.930 --> 00:03:28.039 I did. I had it for a few years. And I was doing 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:30.840 civil files, I was doing real estate, and then 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.240 I was doing family law as well. And so just my 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:38.939 experience grew. And then when I closed my firm, 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:42.379 I joined a firm that did exclusively family law 00:03:42.379 --> 00:03:46.080 and real estate. And so I just kept on taking 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:48.819 off from there. But I think the point where... 00:03:49.480 --> 00:03:51.819 solidified for me that i wanted to do family 00:03:51.819 --> 00:03:54.659 law or continue on doing it was when i had my 00:03:54.659 --> 00:04:00.099 first family law trial and uh i won yay me congratulations 00:04:00.099 --> 00:04:05.879 thanks um and and all issues were live but the 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.479 way that the mother uh because i represented 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:11.099 the mother the way that she thanked me at the 00:04:11.099 --> 00:04:17.050 end uh with tears and i think it was very in 00:04:17.050 --> 00:04:20.129 that moment i understood like she had finality 00:04:20.129 --> 00:04:24.089 that she really wanted for the longest time from 00:04:24.089 --> 00:04:26.550 her marriage and she didn't get it until then 00:04:26.550 --> 00:04:29.089 and so that's when i was like okay i think this 00:04:29.089 --> 00:04:31.889 is where i belong this is what i want to do and 00:04:31.889 --> 00:04:34.089 so i've been doing it since well that's amazing 00:04:34.089 --> 00:04:36.990 and for the listeners who might not know you 00:04:36.990 --> 00:04:39.560 know We've probably heard about family law, you 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:41.920 know, by people talking about divorce lawyers. 00:04:43.060 --> 00:04:46.079 But what does a family lawyer actually do? Like, 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.480 are they concentrated in one type of practice? 00:04:48.540 --> 00:04:51.459 Or are there many different things that a family 00:04:51.459 --> 00:04:53.920 lawyer can do, like child support, spousal support? 00:04:54.500 --> 00:04:56.480 Talk us through a little bit more about that. 00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:59.620 Yeah, well, those are definitely issues that 00:04:59.620 --> 00:05:04.110 are in family law. Family law really is involving 00:05:04.110 --> 00:05:07.750 the family relationship. So it is about the kids. 00:05:07.790 --> 00:05:11.589 It also is about child support, spousal support, 00:05:11.870 --> 00:05:18.189 equalization, parenting issues, such as decision 00:05:18.189 --> 00:05:21.560 -making responsibility, formerly. I guess, custody. 00:05:22.220 --> 00:05:24.819 Because they change some of the wording, right? 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:27.759 Yeah, so we don't use custody anymore. It's decision 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:31.959 -making responsibility. And then we also say 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:34.879 parenting time. So that's when, how much time 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:37.819 the kids are spending with mom and dad, which 00:05:37.819 --> 00:05:42.560 ultimately will affect who pays who or how much, 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:47.139 sorry, and how much between mom and dad or the 00:05:47.139 --> 00:05:50.389 parents. and we can also involve third party 00:05:50.389 --> 00:05:54.329 to assist us such as mediators or arbitrators 00:05:54.329 --> 00:05:58.629 there's also collaborative family law where lawyers 00:05:58.629 --> 00:06:03.170 don't go to court and they won't go to court 00:06:03.170 --> 00:06:06.829 they will work with other professionals that's 00:06:06.829 --> 00:06:08.850 why it's collaborative and working with other 00:06:08.850 --> 00:06:12.410 professionals to assist the parties in finding 00:06:12.410 --> 00:06:16.899 a resolution to their matter And there's been 00:06:16.899 --> 00:06:21.160 a huge shift towards litigants or spouses to 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:23.779 try to resolve out of court to the point that, 00:06:23.819 --> 00:06:26.240 you know, even in the application itself, when 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:28.699 you launch an application, a part of it says 00:06:28.699 --> 00:06:31.100 that, you know, you will try to resolve family 00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:33.160 law issues by using out of court dispute resolution 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.980 options if it is appropriate for your case, such 00:06:36.980 --> 00:06:42.420 as mediation. So it's not just about court. A 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:45.220 lot of the times we actually do negotiate and 00:06:45.220 --> 00:06:48.240 try to resolve out of court. It does save money 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:51.560 for the clients generally as well. So you talked 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:53.579 a little bit about what drew you to this area 00:06:53.579 --> 00:06:56.180 of practice. Now, in your day -to -day work right 00:06:56.180 --> 00:06:59.319 now, what are some of the biggest practice areas 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:02.120 that you encounter on a daily basis? Yeah, so 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:05.220 me, it's, I hate to say it, but it is really... 00:07:05.709 --> 00:07:09.350 fighting over parenting time. It is fighting 00:07:09.350 --> 00:07:14.889 about assets, about selling the matrimonial home, 00:07:15.189 --> 00:07:19.750 getting certain assets valued, businesses valued. 00:07:20.850 --> 00:07:25.250 So we're really looking to figure out how we 00:07:25.250 --> 00:07:28.110 can resolve the financial issues simultaneously 00:07:28.110 --> 00:07:33.220 with the parenting issues. So that's kind of 00:07:33.220 --> 00:07:37.199 like the routine issues, I guess, that I deal 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:39.879 with on a regular basis. So let's take a step 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:42.500 back right now and kind of look at family law 00:07:42.500 --> 00:07:45.860 from a bird's eye view. So, of course, family 00:07:45.860 --> 00:07:49.300 law might deal with marriages. So I was wondering 00:07:49.300 --> 00:07:52.399 in Canada, what is considered a legal marriage? 00:07:53.370 --> 00:07:57.550 It is the lawful union of two persons to the 00:07:57.550 --> 00:08:02.129 exclusion of all others. And in Canada, you'd 00:08:02.129 --> 00:08:04.709 have to be at least 18 years old to be married 00:08:04.709 --> 00:08:07.310 without the consent of your parents. But if you're, 00:08:07.310 --> 00:08:13.149 I guess, 16 to 17, you could get married with 00:08:13.149 --> 00:08:16.029 written consent of both parents. I see. So what's 00:08:16.029 --> 00:08:19.649 the difference between a marriage and a common 00:08:19.649 --> 00:08:24.170 law partnership? Right. So one of the main issues 00:08:24.170 --> 00:08:27.670 at the end, if you are a common law, is that 00:08:27.670 --> 00:08:32.929 you don't have the ability to equalize. So there's 00:08:32.929 --> 00:08:36.529 equalization. You don't get that as a common 00:08:36.529 --> 00:08:39.769 law partner or in a common law relationship. 00:08:40.389 --> 00:08:42.669 That's only available to those who are actually 00:08:42.669 --> 00:08:45.750 married. So when we're talking about equalization, 00:08:45.830 --> 00:08:48.309 we're talking about the net family property of 00:08:48.309 --> 00:08:51.639 the... husband and wife um when we're doing the 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:55.279 calculations and again it's only for the spouses 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.600 and not necessarily for common law i see so there's 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.419 certain entitlements that a married couple might 00:09:01.419 --> 00:09:03.879 have that common law partners might not have 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.429 is that correct yeah so If you're in a common 00:09:07.429 --> 00:09:09.230 law partnership, you can't divorce because it's 00:09:09.230 --> 00:09:11.610 not considered a legal marriage. But I'm sure 00:09:11.610 --> 00:09:13.710 that, of course, family lawyers deal a lot with 00:09:13.710 --> 00:09:16.269 divorce. So I was wondering, how do divorces 00:09:16.269 --> 00:09:19.490 actually work in Canada or Ontario? Like, how 00:09:19.490 --> 00:09:22.809 does someone start the proceedings in order to 00:09:22.809 --> 00:09:25.590 get a divorce? A divorce is a legal process. 00:09:25.730 --> 00:09:29.570 You do have to apply for it. And typically, a 00:09:29.570 --> 00:09:33.470 person would have to... wait a year after their 00:09:33.470 --> 00:09:36.629 separation to apply for the divorce and it's 00:09:36.629 --> 00:09:39.850 that in between time of the the one year that 00:09:39.850 --> 00:09:44.590 usually spouses are going to seek legal assistance 00:09:44.590 --> 00:09:49.149 to come to some type of resolution with regards 00:09:49.149 --> 00:09:53.690 to the financial aspects and the parenting aspect 00:09:53.690 --> 00:09:58.360 as well i see so When someone comes to you and 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.980 they want to get a divorce, do they usually have 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:03.100 a plan of what they want in mind? Or is that 00:10:03.100 --> 00:10:05.259 the family lawyer's job to kind of figure it 00:10:05.259 --> 00:10:09.320 out? It's a mix. Sometimes I do get clients that 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:12.100 say that they've spoken to their husband or wife 00:10:12.100 --> 00:10:18.039 about what they, in principle, agree to. But 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:20.980 sometimes, given the volatility of their relationship, 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.779 that has never happened. And so we end up starting 00:10:24.779 --> 00:10:28.480 from the ground. in terms of what they are seeking, 00:10:28.820 --> 00:10:31.539 what is in the best interest of the children 00:10:31.539 --> 00:10:36.220 or child, and what does support look like? What 00:10:36.220 --> 00:10:39.539 do they need to, you know, carry on, at least 00:10:39.539 --> 00:10:43.759 for the interim? But we do have like a long -term 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.840 vision in terms of like what we hope to get for 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:49.659 our clients. Right. So how did those negotiations 00:10:49.659 --> 00:10:52.740 kind of work with the other partners' counsel? 00:10:53.690 --> 00:10:57.129 Do you meet via Zoom just to see what each client 00:10:57.129 --> 00:11:01.049 is amenable to? How do you determine what each 00:11:01.049 --> 00:11:04.570 person is willing to compromise on? So I usually 00:11:04.570 --> 00:11:07.549 like to start off with a call with the opposing 00:11:07.549 --> 00:11:12.210 counsel or the other side to see what their client's 00:11:12.210 --> 00:11:14.509 position is. Is there any wiggle room? What can 00:11:14.509 --> 00:11:17.809 we come to a resolution in terms of temporarily 00:11:17.809 --> 00:11:22.320 while we continue to work things out? So I do 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.600 like to start off with a call. Well, usually 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:26.440 I start off with a letter saying, hey, I represent 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:30.039 so and so, you know, please provide me with your 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:32.679 client's financial statement in the interim. 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.919 I know that little Johnny and Susie have been 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:39.740 under the care of both mom and dad. And so let's 00:11:39.740 --> 00:11:43.580 figure out a schedule since mom has moved out 00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:47.240 in terms of sharing time with little Johnny and 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.480 Susie. When someone tries to get a divorce, do 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.360 you have to agree with the other partner that 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:55.159 they are going to get a divorce? Or can I just 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:57.179 say, well, you might not agree to this, but I 00:11:57.179 --> 00:11:59.460 want to get a divorce. There's a separation that 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:01.919 needs to happen. And that's usually when there 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:04.919 is no reasonable prospect of reconciliation between 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.259 the parties. You can't really separate in silence. 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:10.100 There's got to be like one party will have to 00:12:10.100 --> 00:12:13.620 say, like, I will separate. And if they don't, 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:15.379 then we're going to have to look at other factors 00:12:15.379 --> 00:12:18.909 that would. indicate give indication that you 00:12:18.909 --> 00:12:21.370 know there was a separation whether they've been 00:12:21.370 --> 00:12:23.970 holding themselves as a couple or sorry they 00:12:23.970 --> 00:12:27.230 stopped they stopped having meals together they 00:12:27.230 --> 00:12:32.490 stopped doing certain public things out that 00:12:32.490 --> 00:12:35.049 they normally do they don't go on vacations anymore 00:12:35.049 --> 00:12:37.850 they tell their close families and friends that 00:12:37.850 --> 00:12:41.590 they've separated and so there's a lot of factors 00:12:41.590 --> 00:12:45.779 that are that we look at but generally and most 00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:49.360 often the time something did happen and someone 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.279 either left or someone saying i don't want to 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:55.779 be in this relationship anymore sometimes they're 00:12:55.779 --> 00:12:58.240 still thinking about and when they want to pull 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:01.139 the trigger per se in terms of like ending their 00:13:01.139 --> 00:13:05.600 relationship i mean i have um But in a letter 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:07.659 saying that, hey, I represent husband or wife 00:13:07.659 --> 00:13:09.919 and they want to separate from you and consider 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.039 this as a day of separation. And, you know, so 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:14.799 -and -so is going to be moving out or so -and 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:19.580 -so is going to be living in the basement. Yeah. 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:21.919 And then we just try to figure out parameters 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:26.279 that are respectful for both, if possible. And 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.019 how long does the divorce process usually take? 00:13:29.690 --> 00:13:31.970 So let's say if you waited that year and then 00:13:31.970 --> 00:13:34.970 you applied, you're really in the court's hands. 00:13:35.169 --> 00:13:37.870 It can be a few months. It could be many, many 00:13:37.870 --> 00:13:41.629 months. But that's just for you to get your divorce 00:13:41.629 --> 00:13:44.309 order and divorce certificate. Yeah. So I guess 00:13:44.309 --> 00:13:46.570 it depends on how complicated the relationship 00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:50.350 is, how amicable the separation might be, how 00:13:50.350 --> 00:13:52.330 willing each partner is willing to compromise. 00:13:52.370 --> 00:13:54.830 And of course, you know, court timelines and 00:13:54.830 --> 00:13:57.429 such as well, that will affect how long your 00:13:57.429 --> 00:13:59.909 divorce process might take. So let's talk about 00:13:59.909 --> 00:14:01.669 another issue right now, which is the concept 00:14:01.669 --> 00:14:04.690 of spousal support. So I would presume that that 00:14:04.690 --> 00:14:07.090 would be related to divorce. But what exactly 00:14:07.090 --> 00:14:10.029 is spousal support and how is it determined? 00:14:10.450 --> 00:14:14.110 Sure. So basically, spousal support is, as it 00:14:14.110 --> 00:14:17.330 sounds, it's support paid from one spouse to 00:14:17.330 --> 00:14:22.450 the other. And unlike child support, you'd have 00:14:22.450 --> 00:14:28.340 to show entitlement to be able to. obtain support 00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:32.080 the first way is through contractual contractual 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:34.980 can mean a order or it could be some type of 00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:38.100 an agreement that says if our relationship ends 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:41.139 i pay you x amount of dollars for x amount of 00:14:41.139 --> 00:14:44.279 time shall we say uh it could be compensatory 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.879 and so compensatory could be is when you know 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:51.629 there's been a sacrifice made and the one spouse 00:14:51.629 --> 00:14:55.629 has suffered an economic disadvantage a common 00:14:55.629 --> 00:15:00.169 example of that is when one spouse has given 00:15:00.169 --> 00:15:03.029 up their career to raise the kids that would 00:15:03.029 --> 00:15:07.429 be an example of a compensatory basis and then 00:15:07.429 --> 00:15:11.669 on a needs basis is when for some reason one 00:15:11.669 --> 00:15:16.789 spouse doesn't have the skill set Maybe there's 00:15:16.789 --> 00:15:18.970 like a disability of some sort and they just 00:15:18.970 --> 00:15:22.269 can't work and then they need to rely on their 00:15:22.269 --> 00:15:25.250 spouse. And so that's on a needs basis. And so 00:15:25.250 --> 00:15:27.990 the entitlements, it could be one, there could 00:15:27.990 --> 00:15:31.529 be more. You just have to prove that you are 00:15:31.529 --> 00:15:35.350 entitled to support before we figure out where 00:15:35.350 --> 00:15:39.649 you fall in terms of how much or how much one 00:15:39.649 --> 00:15:42.429 spouse should be paying the other. And we look 00:15:42.429 --> 00:15:44.919 at a lot of different factors. We look at the 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:47.360 age and health of the parties, how long the relationship 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:51.600 has been. Are there any children involved? So 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:53.620 there are many factors that we take into consideration. 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:59.220 And when there is spouse support paid on a monthly 00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:01.399 basis, you know, we would have it in writing 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:04.879 and we would say, you know, the payer spouse 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:07.480 is going to be able to deduct it and it becomes 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:11.840 income to the recipient spouse. I see. And how 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.460 long does spousal support last for? Or can it 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:17.980 last, I don't know, indefinitely? Yeah, that's 00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:22.799 a good question. Depending on the age and the 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.580 length of the marriage, there is something called 00:16:25.580 --> 00:16:30.440 the Rule of 65, where if you add the length of 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.980 the marriage... plus the age of the recipient, 00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:36.879 and if it's more than 65, then the spousal support 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:39.779 advisory guidelines can't really give you a determination 00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:43.379 as to for how long. It just says indefinite. 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:48.700 So it's subject to circumstances in terms of 00:16:48.700 --> 00:16:54.320 when or how much lower one should pay or if it 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:58.360 should stop at all. You mentioned the spousal 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:02.279 support advisory guidelines. I remember learning 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.599 about this in law school. But for the listeners 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:06.660 who don't know, what exactly are they and how 00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:09.640 do they factor into the determination of spousal 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:12.500 support? Yes. So the spousal guidelines, it's 00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:17.119 not law. It's just a guideline that is used by 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.240 court to figure out, you know, the quantum and 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.880 duration. And it's very case by case specific. 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.759 And again, you got to make out your entitlement 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:31.710 claim before we figure out. how much one spouse 00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:34.869 should be paying the other. And it encompasses 00:17:34.869 --> 00:17:36.890 looking at some of the factors that I spoke about 00:17:36.890 --> 00:17:39.750 earlier. And what about child support? Because 00:17:39.750 --> 00:17:42.190 that's different from spousal support. So what 00:17:42.190 --> 00:17:43.930 are the differences between child support and 00:17:43.930 --> 00:17:47.109 spousal support? Child support has the child 00:17:47.109 --> 00:17:51.950 support guidelines. So it's legislated. It's 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:55.549 in there. It says, you know, if you have... x 00:17:55.549 --> 00:17:57.829 amount of children and your income is so and 00:17:57.829 --> 00:17:59.529 so this is how much you'll be paying for them 00:17:59.529 --> 00:18:03.349 on a monthly basis but rewinding back remember 00:18:03.349 --> 00:18:05.509 i was talking to you about you know people fighting 00:18:05.509 --> 00:18:08.150 over parenting time and how parenting time can 00:18:08.150 --> 00:18:11.450 affect how much support one pays the other so 00:18:11.450 --> 00:18:14.630 if you know little johnny and little susie are 00:18:14.630 --> 00:18:18.009 actually spending near equal time between mom 00:18:18.009 --> 00:18:22.460 and dad the child support would be set off. So 00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:25.859 let's say we've determined that mom's child support 00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:30.559 is $1 ,000 and we say dad's child support obligation 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:35.279 is $700, then mom would just be paying dad $300 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:39.279 every month. I see. So there's a lot of math 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.890 involved. Lots of numbers, a lot of considerations 00:18:41.890 --> 00:18:44.650 in place. Do you have any tools to help you to 00:18:44.650 --> 00:18:46.950 determine what the actual amount might be? Because 00:18:46.950 --> 00:18:49.710 I'm assuming that there's so many factors and 00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:51.589 there must be something that you might be able 00:18:51.589 --> 00:18:54.690 to use to assist you with this process. There's 00:18:54.690 --> 00:18:59.369 a common software that... Most of us use its 00:18:59.369 --> 00:19:02.589 divorce mate. We plug in the numbers, like how 00:19:02.589 --> 00:19:06.509 many children that they have, how old is the 00:19:06.509 --> 00:19:10.069 recipient party, how long the marriage was or 00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:14.390 how long cohabitation. And then we can even put 00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:16.950 in other variables such as, you know, Section 00:19:16.950 --> 00:19:20.670 7 expenses. We can also calculate, you know, 00:19:20.750 --> 00:19:25.299 life insurance. It's a very handy tool and a 00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:27.339 lot of family law lawyers use it in Ontario. 00:19:27.619 --> 00:19:29.880 Right. And I'm assuming that, you know, things 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.359 like spousal support and child support are probably 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:35.819 contested a lot. So when you use something like 00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:39.720 DivorceMate, is there less of a possibility that 00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:41.920 the numbers might be contested because it is 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.180 like, quote unquote, an objective software? Or 00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:49.410 do you still see that there are challenges? Less 00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:52.789 on the child because it's legislated. It really 00:19:52.789 --> 00:19:57.930 is. It says how much you make and how many kids 00:19:57.930 --> 00:19:59.789 you have. This is how much you're paying. So 00:19:59.789 --> 00:20:01.950 that's the easier part. It's the spouse's part 00:20:01.950 --> 00:20:05.609 in terms of it is numbers that we as lawyers 00:20:05.609 --> 00:20:10.289 can use to kind of negotiate where can we land 00:20:10.289 --> 00:20:13.430 in terms of the spouses and what they're willing 00:20:13.430 --> 00:20:15.630 to pay and what they can pay. And we're looking 00:20:15.630 --> 00:20:18.130 at their circumstances as well. So let's switch 00:20:18.130 --> 00:20:19.650 gears a little bit and let's talk a little bit 00:20:19.650 --> 00:20:21.369 more about your experience working with family 00:20:21.369 --> 00:20:26.170 law. Based on your experience working with clients, 00:20:26.509 --> 00:20:28.930 what are some of the biggest misconceptions of 00:20:28.930 --> 00:20:33.349 what family law is today? On the client side, 00:20:33.630 --> 00:20:39.170 I'd say that in terms of separation, a lot of 00:20:39.170 --> 00:20:43.029 clients think that you have to physically separate. 00:20:43.630 --> 00:20:45.769 to be quote unquote separated but you actually 00:20:45.769 --> 00:20:48.430 can be separated while living under the same 00:20:48.430 --> 00:20:51.490 roof that's interesting yeah so you know the 00:20:51.490 --> 00:20:55.650 parents the spouses could be sleeping in different 00:20:55.650 --> 00:20:58.809 bedrooms one in the basement or whatever and 00:20:58.809 --> 00:21:02.069 they just operate in a way that they're not together 00:21:02.069 --> 00:21:05.009 they don't speak to each other much they kind 00:21:05.009 --> 00:21:07.930 of live their own independent lives sometimes 00:21:09.289 --> 00:21:12.410 Yeah, so that's one misconception that I run 00:21:12.410 --> 00:21:16.869 into a lot. Another one is the how immediate 00:21:16.869 --> 00:21:21.410 divorces can happen. And I think that the general 00:21:21.410 --> 00:21:23.329 public, or sorry, I don't want to say generalized, 00:21:23.369 --> 00:21:26.410 but like most of the time what I do get is I 00:21:26.410 --> 00:21:29.450 want a divorce right now. They're thinking in 00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:31.789 their mind that the divorce is the separation 00:21:31.789 --> 00:21:36.789 combined together or the divorce ends everything. 00:21:36.869 --> 00:21:39.849 I mean, it... does provide some type of finality 00:21:39.849 --> 00:21:43.049 but it's they don't think about the separation 00:21:43.049 --> 00:21:46.289 date they don't think about the gap the year 00:21:46.289 --> 00:21:51.210 that they have to wait to apply um but one thing 00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:56.170 that i wanted to say was uh i think as family 00:21:56.170 --> 00:21:58.670 lawyers i think we're underestimated in terms 00:21:58.670 --> 00:22:02.049 of maybe the legal profession or maybe the work 00:22:02.049 --> 00:22:06.970 that we do uh overall because i think maybe when 00:22:06.970 --> 00:22:09.650 someone says you're a family lawyer all you do 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:14.009 is fight over money assets and kids yes we do 00:22:14.009 --> 00:22:18.369 but i think the missing part is that a lot don't 00:22:18.369 --> 00:22:21.569 think about how family law intersects with other 00:22:21.569 --> 00:22:24.950 areas of law as well so you know we are like 00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:26.730 there's an international component where we're 00:22:26.730 --> 00:22:28.910 talking about the hay convention and like you 00:22:28.910 --> 00:22:32.029 know dealing with uh a parent who has abducted 00:22:32.029 --> 00:22:34.569 a child somewhere else in another jurisdiction 00:22:35.669 --> 00:22:39.349 We're routinely dealing with pensions. We're 00:22:39.349 --> 00:22:42.230 dealing with the selling of property. So we're 00:22:42.230 --> 00:22:44.329 dealing with real estate. We're also dealing 00:22:44.329 --> 00:22:47.150 with taxation because we're dealing with disposition 00:22:47.150 --> 00:22:52.349 costs and how it affects one spouse tax -wise. 00:22:52.470 --> 00:22:55.849 So again, family law really hits a lot of other 00:22:55.849 --> 00:23:00.029 areas of law. Most commonly for me, it's actually 00:23:00.029 --> 00:23:02.809 the... intersection of family and criminal and 00:23:02.809 --> 00:23:07.009 many times you know mom or dad has criminal charges 00:23:07.009 --> 00:23:12.190 uh brought on against the spouse and that creates 00:23:12.190 --> 00:23:15.250 further complications in terms of being able 00:23:15.250 --> 00:23:20.269 to exercise parenting time um so yeah i i think 00:23:20.269 --> 00:23:22.549 that family law is very cool in a sense that 00:23:22.549 --> 00:23:25.950 you know it touches on other areas of law so 00:23:25.950 --> 00:23:28.430 in your line of work because you are dealing 00:23:28.430 --> 00:23:31.700 with cases that are very emotionally charged 00:23:31.700 --> 00:23:35.119 how do you keep a balance between you know having 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:37.640 emotions at work and doing your job as a family 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:40.160 lawyer yeah it was very it was a struggle in 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:42.359 the beginning because I kind of personalized 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:46.240 it like that their issues became my issues in 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.740 a sense in a weird way but I've learned to kind 00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:52.180 of cut that cord and like not be you know it 00:23:52.180 --> 00:23:56.400 is that's their emotion and I need to be the 00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.900 lawyer and I need to advocate and do the best 00:23:58.900 --> 00:24:02.039 that I can for them and that means that I have 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.819 to be objective I have to not get into their 00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:09.180 emotions and leave the emotions out of it for 00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:12.980 me to be able to do the job effectively and also 00:24:12.980 --> 00:24:15.920 I kind of use if we're talking about emotions 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:19.220 I kind of have figured out a way to transform 00:24:19.220 --> 00:24:24.839 emotion to kind of fuel me to fight more passionately 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.779 for my clients so when you know they're in a 00:24:27.779 --> 00:24:32.319 rough spot i'm using my the emotion of like them 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:35.359 being in a rough spot to really fuel me to get 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:38.920 them out of that rough situation whatever that 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.319 is right so there is a benefit sometimes to feeling 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:45.400 those emotions and letting them kind of influence 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:47.700 how you negotiate with the client and how you 00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:49.900 approach things and make sure that they feel 00:24:49.900 --> 00:24:52.500 comfortable through the process. So what else 00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:54.799 do you do when you have clients who come to you 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:59.039 and they're coming from a relationship that might 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.880 not have been the best? How do you deal with 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.839 their emotions and how do you make sure that 00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:06.859 they feel comfortable with the entire process? 00:25:08.450 --> 00:25:11.849 It's definitely a balancing act. You definitely 00:25:11.849 --> 00:25:14.569 want to show that you are listening, being an 00:25:14.569 --> 00:25:19.390 active listener. You want to show empathy. You 00:25:19.390 --> 00:25:24.549 want to show that you can at the same time confidently 00:25:24.549 --> 00:25:28.549 and are able to handle their matter. You kind 00:25:28.549 --> 00:25:32.930 of do have to demonstrate a level of confidence 00:25:32.930 --> 00:25:35.049 to be able to handle their matter because they're 00:25:35.049 --> 00:25:39.119 going to be interesting. you to advocate for 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:41.940 them to resolve their issue and I think they 00:25:41.940 --> 00:25:44.900 would like to see that in someone who's going 00:25:44.900 --> 00:25:49.960 to help them but I'm also when I'm meeting the 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:53.759 client and especially whether they're alone or 00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:56.700 they bring someone with them at a meeting like 00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:58.980 I am looking for non -verbal cues as well in 00:25:58.980 --> 00:26:02.480 terms of like how this relationship is affecting 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:06.339 them and you know sometimes the person will defer 00:26:06.339 --> 00:26:09.779 to whoever they brought to do most of the speaking 00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:12.059 which i kind of don't like but it really does 00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:15.000 tell me that you know it could be something very 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.299 triggering if it came out of them um and maybe 00:26:19.299 --> 00:26:21.920 it gives me insight into like how bad it is for 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.460 them but i i try to demonstrate active listening 00:26:25.460 --> 00:26:29.160 to really ask the important questions to get 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:32.440 to the root of the issues and to see where we 00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:35.619 can find a resolution. So, you know, you talked 00:26:35.619 --> 00:26:37.799 about winning that trial and having this woman 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:40.799 come up to you in tears, thanking you for helping 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:43.160 her ever achieve some sort of finality. I was 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:44.960 curious to know if there were any other rewarding 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:47.079 moments that you've had so far as a family lawyer 00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:50.220 that encourage you to keep on doing what you're 00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:54.359 doing right now. You know what, when we, it doesn't 00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:56.579 even have to be a trial, whether it, Even if 00:26:56.579 --> 00:27:00.079 I am successful on a motion or even if I'm just 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:02.839 signing a separation agreement with a client, 00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:08.059 that already is very satisfying in that, you 00:27:08.059 --> 00:27:11.640 know, I've helped them conclude this part, this 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:14.619 chapter of their life. They may not have gotten 00:27:14.619 --> 00:27:16.700 everything. They may have gotten most of the 00:27:16.700 --> 00:27:18.519 things that they want. I don't know. Like, depends 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:23.220 case by case. But when we sign and we finish 00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:26.309 signing that agreement. It's great. It's like 00:27:26.309 --> 00:27:29.630 now they can move on with their lives. They know 00:27:29.630 --> 00:27:31.529 how they're going to take care of the kids. They 00:27:31.529 --> 00:27:34.509 know how much money to expect coming to them 00:27:34.509 --> 00:27:37.609 or how much they're going to have to pay. So 00:27:37.609 --> 00:27:40.690 in that aspect, it is rewarding because you have 00:27:40.690 --> 00:27:44.250 assisted them in closing a chapter of their life 00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:46.880 and they're able to start a new one. That's amazing. 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.740 And I guess my last question for you is, you 00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:51.319 know, if you look back on your days as a law 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:53.859 school student and you were telling him that, 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:55.519 oh my gosh, one day I'm going to be a family 00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:58.640 lawyer, how do you think they would react? Me, 00:27:58.660 --> 00:28:02.440 if I went back and told myself, I would probably 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:06.119 say you're out of your mind. I don't think I 00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:10.140 would ever do family, but here we are. But I 00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:12.720 would probably convince myself that, hey, the 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.819 work is worth it. The people you're helping, 00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:18.799 you're making a huge impact. This is the most 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.400 sensitive part of their life in terms of when 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:27.579 there is a dissolution of the relationship. They're 00:28:27.579 --> 00:28:31.019 coming to you at a very vulnerable time. And 00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:34.619 you can do it. You can help them. Yeah, that's 00:28:34.619 --> 00:28:36.940 what I would say. That's amazing. Well, Dara, 00:28:37.019 --> 00:28:38.720 thank you so much for being here with me today, 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:42.180 for joining me on the show. Where can the people 00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:44.890 find you? They can find me on LinkedIn. Dara 00:28:44.890 --> 00:28:47.849 Khuam. Shout out to Dara Khuam. Anyways, thank 00:28:47.849 --> 00:28:49.549 you, Dara, for being here. Appreciate it. Thank 00:28:49.549 --> 00:28:53.630 you. Thank you for tapping into this episode 00:28:53.630 --> 00:28:56.390 of Law Syrup. On the next episode, we talk to 00:28:56.390 --> 00:28:58.990 a key part of our audience, students. These are 00:28:58.990 --> 00:29:01.349 students who were the top three winners of OGEN's 00:29:01.349 --> 00:29:04.150 Social Change Essay Contest from last year. Law 00:29:04.150 --> 00:29:06.710 Syrup is produced by me, Herman Wong, and the 00:29:06.710 --> 00:29:09.869 Ontario Justice Education Network. For more information 00:29:09.869 --> 00:29:13.069 and for accompanying resources, check out ojen 00:29:13.069 --> 00:29:15.970 .ca and our show notes. See you next time.