WEBVTT 00:00:01.299 --> 00:00:03.540 Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk 00:00:03.540 --> 00:00:05.679 with special guests about hot topics in Canadian 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:08.359 law. This podcast is a co -production with the 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:10.779 Ontario Justice Education Network, also known 00:00:10.779 --> 00:00:14.199 as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman Wong. Let's tap 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:22.359 it. Before we begin, please know that this show 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:24.960 is not intended to be legal advice or a replacement 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.660 for a legal representative. Welcome back to another 00:00:28.660 --> 00:00:30.679 episode, everybody. Today, we've got another 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:33.719 great panel discussion for you. I was very lucky 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:36.100 to be joined by Louis Philippe, Matthew Wilkes, 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.979 and Maria Apostolowski, each of whom are high 00:00:38.979 --> 00:00:42.299 school law teachers. Now, I am someone who was 00:00:42.299 --> 00:00:44.679 first introduced to law by taking it as a course 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:47.340 in grade 11. And as you'll hear in today's episode, 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:49.700 taking that class set me on the path to where 00:00:49.700 --> 00:00:52.359 I am today. I was then really interested to see 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.179 how high school law teachers today are motivating 00:00:55.179 --> 00:00:58.119 students to become more curious and more engaged 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:00.380 with the law, which is also what we strive for 00:01:00.380 --> 00:01:02.880 with this show. I also wanted to see how they 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.599 navigate teaching sensitive topics and also what 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:07.780 advice they might have for other high school 00:01:07.780 --> 00:01:10.560 law teachers. So here's my conversation with 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:15.180 Louis, Matt, and Maria. All right, so now we've 00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:17.439 got everybody here. How about we all introduce 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:19.659 ourselves and tell us where you went to high 00:01:19.659 --> 00:01:23.180 school? Maria, how about you go first? Sure. 00:01:23.420 --> 00:01:26.680 So my name is Maria. I went to high school in 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:29.239 Durham region, graduated from J. Clark Richardson. 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:31.540 So I was actually part of the first cohort to 00:01:31.540 --> 00:01:35.200 complete all four years at that school. And currently 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.079 I'm a secondary high school teacher, but I've 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:39.120 been seconded to a central position right now. 00:01:39.180 --> 00:01:42.180 So I'm a K -12 curriculum facilitator supporting 00:01:42.180 --> 00:01:45.120 various subject areas, including law. Amazing. 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:49.189 And Matt, how about you? Hi, everyone. So I'm 00:01:49.189 --> 00:01:51.829 Matt Wilkes. I am a secondary school teacher 00:01:51.829 --> 00:01:54.730 at a school called Garth Webb Secondary School 00:01:54.730 --> 00:01:58.010 in Oakville. And I went to Pierre Elliott Trudeau 00:01:58.010 --> 00:02:00.170 High School in Markham, which I understand Herman 00:02:00.170 --> 00:02:02.769 is where you also went to high school. It is. 00:02:02.769 --> 00:02:04.790 And I was very surprised when I found out that 00:02:04.790 --> 00:02:08.050 you're also a pet alumni. I think I literally 00:02:08.050 --> 00:02:09.590 just looked through your LinkedIn and I was like, 00:02:09.650 --> 00:02:11.069 oh, my gosh, we went to the same high school 00:02:11.069 --> 00:02:15.250 together. So that's fun. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:18.259 I've found that there have been a lot of people, 00:02:18.340 --> 00:02:21.219 at least from Trudeau, that have gone into law. 00:02:21.419 --> 00:02:24.539 And I can think in terms of my cohort, a number 00:02:24.539 --> 00:02:27.099 of people from my law class when I took grade 00:02:27.099 --> 00:02:30.280 12 law later went on to become lawyers. So it 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:32.719 was a wonderful school, really enjoyed the experience. 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:35.919 Yeah, I love the school. I love taking law in 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:39.120 high school there. It was amazing. Now, Lewis, 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:42.240 how about you? Hi, yeah, I'm Louis Philippe. 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:45.979 I went to high school at Central Technical School, 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:49.199 which is actually where I currently am teaching, 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:51.240 though not at Central Tech, but Blur Collegiate, 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.020 which is sharing a building with Central Tech 00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:55.919 while our new building's finished. So it's been 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:57.819 a bit of an interesting last couple of years, 00:02:57.900 --> 00:03:00.539 kind of reacquainting myself with my high school 00:03:00.539 --> 00:03:03.560 surroundings. I was back... when it was five 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:06.479 years before the double cohort came in. I'm in 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:08.800 my 17th year right now, my eighth year at Bloor 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:11.500 Collegiate as Department of Social Science. And 00:03:11.500 --> 00:03:13.219 I've been teaching law for the last eight years 00:03:13.219 --> 00:03:15.020 as well. I really started when I was at Bloor 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:17.759 and the year before at Kipling Collegiate. Amazing. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:21.520 So let's go over what drew you to actually teaching 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:24.719 law in high school. Was it always something you 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.259 wanted to do? Lewis, how about we go back to 00:03:27.259 --> 00:03:30.800 you first? I think to some extent it was. A lot 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:33.319 of my sort of People I looked up to, my little 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:35.020 celebrities in life, were my actual high school 00:03:35.020 --> 00:03:37.580 teachers. And they were, in many ways, I went 00:03:37.580 --> 00:03:40.740 to a public high school and coming from the Catholic 00:03:40.740 --> 00:03:42.680 elementary boards, they were kind of a conduit 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:46.199 to a different culture and part of Canada that 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.199 I didn't really have experience with. And so 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:49.919 in a lot of ways, they introduced me to ideas 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.620 that I had never really come across before in 00:03:53.620 --> 00:03:55.939 my life, either with family or school. So they 00:03:55.939 --> 00:03:57.800 were kind of these sort of pillars for me, just 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:02.069 of knowledge, of information. teachers i can 00:04:02.069 --> 00:04:06.090 remember the most i didn't learn a single thing 00:04:06.090 --> 00:04:07.969 in their class about the subject area i just 00:04:07.969 --> 00:04:13.669 learned about life and politics and society so 00:04:13.669 --> 00:04:15.930 it was pretty foundational i think in a lot of 00:04:15.930 --> 00:04:18.490 ways my family my students often ask me why did 00:04:18.490 --> 00:04:22.269 i become a lawyer and my family there's a lot 00:04:22.269 --> 00:04:26.149 of pressure to get sort of a stable with as minimal 00:04:26.149 --> 00:04:29.129 amount of education as possible. And so teaching 00:04:29.129 --> 00:04:30.589 was one of those opportunities that gave me, 00:04:30.589 --> 00:04:32.370 I think, a creative outlet, but also kind of 00:04:32.370 --> 00:04:34.290 got my foot in the door to kind of establishing 00:04:34.290 --> 00:04:36.430 ourselves in Canadian society. And I always joke, 00:04:36.449 --> 00:04:39.509 my kids can become the lawyers if they so choose. 00:04:39.889 --> 00:04:44.040 But yeah. Amazing. Maria, how about you? Similar 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.740 to Lewis, I definitely had quite a few influential 00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:50.560 educators in my own life that made the idea of 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.160 pursuing a career in education something that 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.939 I began to consider. To be honest, when I went 00:04:56.939 --> 00:04:59.000 to university, I was actually interested in pursuing 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:03.300 law. And I actually began tutoring with the Working 00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:06.699 Women Community Center in Toronto. And this On 00:05:06.699 --> 00:05:09.100 Your Mark tutoring program really gave me an 00:05:09.100 --> 00:05:13.120 opportunity to work with students. more closely 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:15.800 I guess I would say and that really opened up 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:18.920 the the desire even further to pursue a career 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:21.040 in education and I kind of went back and forth 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:22.920 for for a while in terms of whether I wanted 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:25.120 to continue with my initial plans of pursuing 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:28.079 law or moving into education but I guess I shifted 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:31.519 into the best of both worlds I I you know I got 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:34.560 my my teaching license and then I got to teach 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:37.560 law to high school students so I think definitely 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:41.110 having the experience I Experiences that I did 00:05:41.110 --> 00:05:45.449 as a student myself gave me the desire to see 00:05:45.449 --> 00:05:48.250 what it could be like, but also at the same time 00:05:48.250 --> 00:05:50.990 recognizing I kind of kept things open, at least 00:05:50.990 --> 00:05:54.350 moving into university. And Matt, how about you? 00:05:56.009 --> 00:05:59.149 Teaching was really not something that was on 00:05:59.149 --> 00:06:04.189 my radar very early on. So when I was at Trudeau, 00:06:04.230 --> 00:06:07.610 I had taken the grade 11 and the grade 12 law 00:06:07.610 --> 00:06:09.870 classes, and I thought that that was a really 00:06:09.870 --> 00:06:13.189 wonderful experience for many of the same reasons 00:06:13.189 --> 00:06:16.050 that I think students today connect to the law 00:06:16.050 --> 00:06:17.930 classes in terms of the practical opportunities 00:06:17.930 --> 00:06:21.389 to engage with the work that lawyers do and thinking 00:06:21.389 --> 00:06:25.829 deeply about difficult. important topics that 00:06:25.829 --> 00:06:29.470 affect our society. And I actually kind of became 00:06:29.470 --> 00:06:32.990 set on law at that point as being a career. So 00:06:32.990 --> 00:06:36.889 after grade 11 and grade 12, I moved into taking 00:06:36.889 --> 00:06:39.990 a degree in law and society at York University 00:06:39.990 --> 00:06:43.470 and really enjoyed that, enjoyed the engagement 00:06:43.470 --> 00:06:47.689 with the social policy aspects of law and decided 00:06:47.689 --> 00:06:50.069 after that that I was going to pursue law school. 00:06:50.230 --> 00:06:54.519 So I went to Osgoode Hall Law School. And I was 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:58.839 there to do my Juris Doctor, so JD degree, and 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:01.620 had just an absolutely wonderful time there, 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.519 really learning deeply about the law and having 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.660 the privilege of learning from some professors 00:07:07.660 --> 00:07:11.160 who both were such subject area experts, but 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:14.500 really cared deeply about the students in their 00:07:14.500 --> 00:07:19.019 classes. And at that point, as many people do, 00:07:19.220 --> 00:07:22.660 I just sort of... continued on down that path 00:07:22.660 --> 00:07:25.120 and ended up doing more corporate commercial 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:27.959 facing law. So I articled it and summered at 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:31.519 a law firm called Blaney McMurtry, LLP in downtown 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.279 Toronto, which is a full service law firm, did 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:37.819 a fair bit of corporate commercial law, as well 00:07:37.819 --> 00:07:41.540 as thinking about things like employment law 00:07:41.540 --> 00:07:45.060 and a few other sort of touches upon litigation. 00:07:45.579 --> 00:07:48.839 But back in high school, I had the opportunity 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:51.939 to work quite a bit with youth at the city of 00:07:51.939 --> 00:07:54.480 Markham. So I was involved in summer camp management 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.319 for quite a number of years there and realized 00:07:58.319 --> 00:07:59.980 that there was something about teaching that 00:07:59.980 --> 00:08:02.240 really filled my cup and that I found satisfying 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:05.839 in terms of the relationships that we build with 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.620 youth. And sometime in law school, I'd kind of 00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:12.060 realized that I missed that work and I missed 00:08:12.060 --> 00:08:14.000 those connections and those relationships that 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:16.560 we build with students. So while I was articling, 00:08:16.620 --> 00:08:18.620 even though I had really a wonderful time at 00:08:18.620 --> 00:08:21.740 the firm, I decided to apply for a teacher's 00:08:21.740 --> 00:08:25.199 college and make the move. And I have loved it 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.740 ever since. So I was very fortunate to catch 00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:30.560 on here in the Halton District School Board where 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:32.820 I've been teaching business as well as law. So 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:35.919 it's really been a bit of a roundabout path for 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:38.940 me, but it's really those relationships that 00:08:38.940 --> 00:08:42.120 drew me back into teaching and have made me pretty 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:45.200 set on continuing that going forward. Matt, you 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:47.059 mentioned, for example, that the law touches 00:08:47.059 --> 00:08:49.940 on many things that affect us as a society. And 00:08:49.940 --> 00:08:52.299 teaching law in high school, I'm very curious 00:08:52.299 --> 00:08:55.019 to know, because as we know, the law encompasses 00:08:55.019 --> 00:08:57.659 a vast number of topics. There's criminal law, 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:00.500 there's corporate law. So given the amount of 00:09:00.500 --> 00:09:03.340 content that's out there, how do you all plan 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:05.879 and organize what you want to include in your 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:08.620 classes? So Matt, how about we go back to you 00:09:08.620 --> 00:09:13.100 first? I think that for us, it comes from I would 00:09:13.100 --> 00:09:15.899 say two main sources. I think the first source 00:09:15.899 --> 00:09:18.080 that I always prioritize is knowing the students 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:20.679 in my classroom. So understanding what are their 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:23.000 prior lived experiences, what are their prior 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.639 interests with law, and trying to ensure that 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:28.059 whatever curriculum structure I'm starting with 00:09:28.059 --> 00:09:30.960 is going to connect where they've been with law 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:33.500 and ultimately to where they're going, whether 00:09:33.500 --> 00:09:37.629 it is a university or a college pathway. The 00:09:37.629 --> 00:09:39.669 second source, of course, is the Ontario curriculum. 00:09:39.929 --> 00:09:42.690 So the Ontario curriculum is very detailed in 00:09:42.690 --> 00:09:46.029 terms of what it sets out in terms of the law 00:09:46.029 --> 00:09:48.350 curriculum. And I think it does a very good job 00:09:48.350 --> 00:09:51.230 in providing a broad -based education for students. 00:09:51.529 --> 00:09:55.649 So typically in my classes, we start off with... 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:58.940 for a grade 11 class some of the legal principles 00:09:58.940 --> 00:10:01.539 as well as the structure of the legal system. 00:10:01.659 --> 00:10:03.960 So understanding foundational principles like 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:08.600 the rule of law and early cases that allow for 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:11.570 students to practice reading a case. understanding 00:10:11.570 --> 00:10:14.230 the facts and analogizing a little bit. And then 00:10:14.230 --> 00:10:16.490 after that, we really try and make it practical 00:10:16.490 --> 00:10:19.549 for students. So we dive right into private law, 00:10:19.629 --> 00:10:21.190 giving the students the chance to learn about 00:10:21.190 --> 00:10:23.809 some of the nuts and bolts of contracts, as well 00:10:23.809 --> 00:10:27.070 as torts and trying to expose them to some of 00:10:27.070 --> 00:10:29.629 the law that works in the community and that 00:10:29.629 --> 00:10:32.169 lawyers work with every day. And then we move 00:10:32.169 --> 00:10:34.889 into, again, more practical topics like criminal 00:10:34.889 --> 00:10:37.539 law, human rights, employment law. And at the 00:10:37.539 --> 00:10:40.759 grade 12 level, we then move into a fairly detailed 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:43.679 examination of constitutional law, as well as 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.000 progressing later on in the course into international 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.620 law. So trying to give students something solid 00:10:48.620 --> 00:10:51.419 to grasp on, too, as they work their way and 00:10:51.419 --> 00:10:54.980 develop, I think, the skills that lawyers need 00:10:54.980 --> 00:10:57.100 when they're out in practice, such as reading, 00:10:57.279 --> 00:10:59.340 writing, and being able to work through an argument. 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:02.480 Amazing. And Lewis, how about you? Does your 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:04.740 strategy kind of differ from what Matt's is? 00:11:06.079 --> 00:11:08.100 No, I think there's probably a lot of foundational 00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:10.279 things that all three of us share in terms of 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:12.600 our approach to things. And I think the challenge 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.480 I was thinking as Matt was talking is that it's 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:17.500 one of those courses where the world changes 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:20.159 around us while we're teaching. And right now 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:23.299 I'm teaching international law. And each day 00:11:23.299 --> 00:11:25.519 I've walked in, there's a different social media 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:27.600 post from the President of the United States 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.879 that's sort of kind of upending some of the international 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:34.779 legal order. And so trying to navigate helping 00:11:34.779 --> 00:11:37.480 students themselves navigate that changing world 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:39.399 along with what the curriculum kind of has set 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:42.200 out and trying to walk that fine line and so 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:45.320 it's often having to kind of look at how the 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:48.019 news maybe intersects with what's happening uh 00:11:48.019 --> 00:11:51.000 in the curriculum in a way that feels authentic 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:53.159 but also you know that's not disjointed that 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:55.740 there is a plan um so it's trying to think of 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:58.580 anticipating what may come up how it might fall 00:11:58.580 --> 00:12:00.480 into sort of the curricular parents already there 00:12:01.070 --> 00:12:02.889 And I think, as Matt mentioned, it's quite detailed. 00:12:03.029 --> 00:12:04.649 There's a lot there. And I think it provides 00:12:04.649 --> 00:12:07.690 a lot of opportunity for people to really reflect 00:12:07.690 --> 00:12:10.850 their interests and kind of adjust based on what 00:12:10.850 --> 00:12:13.490 the students like. I do find, though, one thing 00:12:13.490 --> 00:12:15.909 I've kept in mind a lot is kind of remind us 00:12:15.909 --> 00:12:18.490 of the points. It's not law school. And so what 00:12:18.490 --> 00:12:19.809 I'm what the students trying to get out of the 00:12:19.809 --> 00:12:22.450 course is not necessarily having that kind of 00:12:22.450 --> 00:12:25.610 like legal preparation. The second is, you know, 00:12:25.610 --> 00:12:27.350 students, we talk about this a lot in our in 00:12:27.350 --> 00:12:31.059 our department, the very. rarely remember a year 00:12:31.059 --> 00:12:32.779 from now or two years from now what you taught 00:12:32.779 --> 00:12:34.240 them. You know, there's some foundational things 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:36.659 that they'll highlight, but most often not. They 00:12:36.659 --> 00:12:38.539 remember how they felt in the class. And I think 00:12:38.539 --> 00:12:41.600 creating opportunities that allow them to apply 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:43.620 some of those things in unique learning contexts 00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:45.639 that law allows for, so mock trials and things 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:47.039 like that. Those are the things they remember. 00:12:47.419 --> 00:12:49.200 Seeing those arguments kind of spill out into 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.860 the hallways is really nice as well. And then 00:12:51.860 --> 00:12:54.980 one of the pieces we talk a lot about is, you 00:12:54.980 --> 00:12:58.309 know, it's easy with the content. and cases and 00:12:58.309 --> 00:13:01.549 issues we highlight for them to see them as moral 00:13:01.549 --> 00:13:04.690 legal questions that they can engage with. The 00:13:04.690 --> 00:13:07.169 challenge I have is how to turn that kind of 00:13:07.169 --> 00:13:09.009 exercise into something they can then identify 00:13:09.009 --> 00:13:12.570 in their everyday life as also legal moral questions 00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:15.830 to kind of challenge themselves with. And that's 00:13:15.830 --> 00:13:17.970 always my goal and sort of where I see that course. 00:13:18.049 --> 00:13:19.289 Like, where am I going to end up? What does that 00:13:19.289 --> 00:13:20.990 student look like in the course that's taking 00:13:20.990 --> 00:13:23.230 this class with me? What are those habits? What 00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:25.269 are those approaches to learning? What are those 00:13:25.269 --> 00:13:28.909 approaches to legal topics that I want them to 00:13:28.909 --> 00:13:30.970 have? And often even when I give out evaluations, 00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:33.610 I make the point that, you know, anyone I ask 00:13:33.610 --> 00:13:36.090 in your family, my family on the street, they'll 00:13:36.090 --> 00:13:37.889 have an opinion on this case, right? Whether 00:13:37.889 --> 00:13:40.389 it be bail reform or an issue around international 00:13:40.389 --> 00:13:43.149 law, they'll have a lot to say. What I want from 00:13:43.149 --> 00:13:45.980 them is to see. you know, a month, two months, 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.100 three months worth of legal inquiry reflected 00:13:48.100 --> 00:13:51.580 in their answer. And so, you know, that's a lot 00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:53.320 of how I kind of try to approach it. What's happening 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:55.500 in the world? What do I want them to have at 00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:58.200 the end of the course? And then that, you know, 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:00.740 circus act that falls in between trying to juggle 00:14:00.740 --> 00:14:03.220 all that together. That's great. And Maria, how 00:14:03.220 --> 00:14:06.740 about you? Very similar to Louis and Matt. I 00:14:06.740 --> 00:14:09.259 think a lot of the foundations really begin with 00:14:09.259 --> 00:14:12.019 knowing your students. recognizing that there 00:14:12.019 --> 00:14:13.940 may be a topic that's going to work with one 00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:16.779 group of students and the next semester you can't 00:14:16.779 --> 00:14:18.919 cover that for a range of reasons, right? Depending 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.080 on if you're the city in which you're teaching 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.799 and working in has a courthouse nearby, right? 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:27.600 We may have students that are engaging, are navigating 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.519 the legal justice system as well and being mindful 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:34.220 of the issues that are present within our communities 00:14:34.220 --> 00:14:37.340 so that as we are tackling them in our classrooms, 00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:40.960 we are not causing harm to students who may be 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:43.320 on the receiving end of some of that information. 00:14:43.899 --> 00:14:46.460 Similarly, I have always been an individual who's 00:14:46.460 --> 00:14:49.340 really focused extensively on the skill development 00:14:49.340 --> 00:14:53.620 in the class, in particular in modern teaching. 00:14:54.059 --> 00:14:57.000 As much as it could be inaccurate, students are 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:58.620 Googling their content and their information 00:14:58.620 --> 00:15:02.039 every day. And I think a lot of our responsibility 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:04.659 falls on how do we help them navigate. what they 00:15:04.659 --> 00:15:07.639 are consuming online how are they able to engage 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.980 with the content whether they're accessing it 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:12.759 through social media um through mainstream media 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.000 or other or other channels but really looking 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.539 at you know are they able to develop good questions 00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:20.559 that are going to help them get closer to maybe 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:22.639 the the answers they're looking for at the same 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:25.759 time recognizing that you know non -closure is 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:29.039 going to be a real a reality um but one of the 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:31.299 things that my department has done historically 00:15:31.299 --> 00:15:33.159 with all of our kind of Canadian world studies 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:35.539 courses is is teaching the course through those 00:15:35.539 --> 00:15:38.279 concepts of thinking and embedding content throughout 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.559 knowing our curriculum but also looking at what 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:42.139 is what are we hoping our students are going 00:15:42.139 --> 00:15:43.820 to get out of this at the end of the day how 00:15:43.820 --> 00:15:46.320 can we transfer the skills that we've developed 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.740 in this course whether it's you know analyzing 00:15:48.740 --> 00:15:50.940 legal text or being able to complete complete 00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:53.580 a case analysis public speaking being able to 00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:56.039 ask and answer questions how are we helping them 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:57.879 develop those skills so that as they move into 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:00.509 further social studies courses or the maths or 00:16:00.509 --> 00:16:02.830 sciences regardless of the curricular area that 00:16:02.830 --> 00:16:06.549 those skills and those foundation pieces um can 00:16:06.549 --> 00:16:08.750 can kind of be brought forward with them and 00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:11.250 but again similar i guess to what again louis 00:16:11.250 --> 00:16:12.909 and matt mentioned is really knowing your students 00:16:12.909 --> 00:16:14.909 where are their interests i might have students 00:16:14.909 --> 00:16:16.570 one year who are really interested in criminal 00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:19.970 law and in other years the focus is on on international 00:16:19.970 --> 00:16:24.090 and really kind of using and leveraging those 00:16:24.090 --> 00:16:27.370 interests as a way to structure my class I think 00:16:27.370 --> 00:16:30.070 a lot of what you three mentioned is this idea 00:16:30.070 --> 00:16:33.009 of critical thinking and making sure that students 00:16:33.009 --> 00:16:35.230 are aware of what's happening in society and 00:16:35.230 --> 00:16:37.970 how that affects them as an individual and also 00:16:37.970 --> 00:16:40.370 as a collective. You've also mentioned, for example, 00:16:40.370 --> 00:16:43.710 that certain students might be attracted to certain 00:16:43.710 --> 00:16:46.169 types of law, and depending on the year, that 00:16:46.169 --> 00:16:48.610 might change. But have there been any topics 00:16:48.610 --> 00:16:51.590 that you all found to be most interesting for 00:16:51.590 --> 00:16:54.250 students or topics that they had the most questions 00:16:54.250 --> 00:16:58.159 about? Matt, how about you go first? It's a great 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:00.600 question, Herman. And I would say the answer 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.899 changes depending on the cohort. What I would 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:07.329 say is I think that... The biggest source typically 00:17:07.329 --> 00:17:10.130 that I'm seeing right now in interest is in criminal 00:17:10.130 --> 00:17:13.190 law. So there has been a very large resurgence 00:17:13.190 --> 00:17:15.690 in the number of kids that are watching true 00:17:15.690 --> 00:17:18.809 crime documentaries on places like Netflix. They're 00:17:18.809 --> 00:17:20.829 watching Suits, which is a little more of kind 00:17:20.829 --> 00:17:22.490 of the corporate commercial lifestyle there. 00:17:22.549 --> 00:17:24.410 And they're bringing all these rich and diverse 00:17:24.410 --> 00:17:27.029 interests into the classroom. So when we're able 00:17:27.029 --> 00:17:30.490 to dig into something like criminal law i think 00:17:30.490 --> 00:17:32.529 it's satisfying because many students come in 00:17:32.529 --> 00:17:35.690 i think with um what i would describe as a very 00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:38.710 americanized understanding of criminal law sometimes 00:17:38.710 --> 00:17:41.250 i think that there's a real joy for them in being 00:17:41.250 --> 00:17:45.230 able to think about okay how do we filter that 00:17:45.230 --> 00:17:47.809 into a canadian context and how do we think about 00:17:47.809 --> 00:17:50.609 the way that things really work in my community 00:17:50.609 --> 00:17:53.089 and i think that when students are then able 00:17:53.089 --> 00:17:56.099 to apply that in things like mock trial and other 00:17:56.099 --> 00:17:58.180 great practical opportunities, that's when they 00:17:58.180 --> 00:18:00.539 can kind of see themselves in the law a little 00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:02.700 bit more. And criminal law becomes, I think, 00:18:02.700 --> 00:18:04.940 a gateway into understanding a little bit more 00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:08.200 about society as a whole and about the legal 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:13.440 system by turn. And Maria, how about you? I think 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:15.559 it really depends on the cohort. You may have 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.640 one group of students who want to pursue various 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:23.259 subjects or topics within the criminal law. Others, 00:18:23.259 --> 00:18:26.299 maybe it's not of interest to them. Where I've 00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:28.299 kind of been in the last couple of years, international 00:18:28.299 --> 00:18:32.240 law has tended to be the greater interest, which 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.039 is interesting because oftentimes looking at 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:36.099 the curriculum in particular with that grade 00:18:36.099 --> 00:18:38.160 12 course, there's so much content, it often 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.519 gets difficult to get to the end of it. And I 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:43.420 think as educators, we find that's very consistent 00:18:43.420 --> 00:18:46.559 across various subject areas. But I think for 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:48.740 a lot of my students recently, really looking 00:18:48.740 --> 00:18:50.900 at the world around them and maybe their own 00:18:50.900 --> 00:18:54.319 experiences, students, part of various diasporic 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.059 communities, they've migrated to parts of Canada 00:18:57.059 --> 00:19:00.099 locally here within where I'm situated and, you 00:19:00.099 --> 00:19:03.160 know, trying to make those connections to their 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:04.859 family and friends maybe that are continuing 00:19:04.859 --> 00:19:09.779 to be impacted by global issues. tended to draw 00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:11.940 the conversation quite a bit in my courses the 00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:14.160 last couple of years. But again, that's something 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.640 that's very recent. Prior to that, criminal law 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:21.039 definitely was taking center stage, I guess we 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.900 could say. But I think because of the access 00:19:23.900 --> 00:19:27.119 to information on a global scale, it has provided 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:29.000 an opportunity for students to really explore. 00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:32.339 the legal justice system beyond the borders of 00:19:32.339 --> 00:19:34.900 our country and and how does that look in in 00:19:34.900 --> 00:19:37.259 various parts of the world and is there really 00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:39.779 an opportunity to have this international system 00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:44.059 to regulate behavior um so that has been something 00:19:44.059 --> 00:19:47.220 that has definitely i've noticed more consistently 00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:49.460 over the last couple of years will that continue 00:19:49.460 --> 00:19:52.650 as we move forward I mean, time will tell. I 00:19:52.650 --> 00:19:54.829 know with a lot of things happening south of 00:19:54.829 --> 00:19:56.470 the border, a lot of conversations coming up, 00:19:56.490 --> 00:19:59.470 human rights law has definitely been coming back 00:19:59.470 --> 00:20:02.769 to the forefront. So again, just being flexible 00:20:02.769 --> 00:20:04.789 and recognizing it may change, not even from 00:20:04.789 --> 00:20:07.470 semester to semester, but week to week and not 00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:09.450 being rigid with our curriculum and saying we 00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:11.730 have to follow this because that's the order 00:20:11.730 --> 00:20:14.130 in which it was written and really looking at 00:20:14.130 --> 00:20:16.309 what's going on around us and also where our 00:20:16.309 --> 00:20:18.710 students' interests are at that moment. Right. 00:20:18.829 --> 00:20:21.250 And it seems like flexibility is very important 00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:23.930 when it comes to a high school course like law. 00:20:24.470 --> 00:20:28.230 Lewis, how about you? Yeah, so there are what 00:20:28.230 --> 00:20:30.609 I would call a lot of the what -if interests. 00:20:30.809 --> 00:20:33.369 So they're all, I think, based on criminal law 00:20:33.369 --> 00:20:35.109 kind of scenarios. Like, what if this happened? 00:20:35.170 --> 00:20:37.150 What if I did this? Or what if someone... So 00:20:37.150 --> 00:20:38.589 there's a lot of those kinds of questions that 00:20:38.589 --> 00:20:40.490 are, I think, reflective of some of the media 00:20:40.490 --> 00:20:42.069 they consume and some of the news stories that 00:20:42.069 --> 00:20:44.619 get... It's their first interaction with... legal 00:20:44.619 --> 00:20:46.799 questions. But I think like Maria, the international 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:50.900 legal issues have been taking the biggest focus. 00:20:50.980 --> 00:20:55.000 I think a lot of geopolitical issues have erupted 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:56.859 sort of during time I've been teaching grade 00:20:56.859 --> 00:21:00.640 12 law. And I think students are making sense 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:02.440 of these international institutions that may 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:04.119 be learning about for the first time in the course 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:06.500 that are taking center stage in the news, or 00:21:06.500 --> 00:21:10.150 looking at what these things actually mean in 00:21:10.150 --> 00:21:12.549 terms of international enforcement versus sort 00:21:12.549 --> 00:21:14.509 of domestic laws. And I think there's always 00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:16.569 been an interest there, particularly around the 00:21:16.569 --> 00:21:18.410 issue of climate change. I think now there's 00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:21.349 sort of a convergence of international law and 00:21:21.349 --> 00:21:23.069 criminal international law in particular, where 00:21:23.069 --> 00:21:25.789 they have a lot of questions. And those are tricky 00:21:25.789 --> 00:21:29.690 to navigate because I think the other topics, 00:21:29.710 --> 00:21:31.930 there's a lot of things that students are bringing 00:21:31.930 --> 00:21:34.009 in terms of assumptions. These things are touching 00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:36.970 on bigger, wider sort of issues in the broader 00:21:36.970 --> 00:21:40.569 community. I have found the kind of moral underlying 00:21:40.569 --> 00:21:43.309 questions that we kind of try to do at the beginning 00:21:43.309 --> 00:21:45.630 of the course, they tend to come up a lot again 00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:48.130 and sort of always fascinated by how many times 00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:49.829 students are coming back to the issue of like 00:21:49.829 --> 00:21:52.089 the trolley problem and kind of seeing bigger 00:21:52.089 --> 00:21:54.769 complex legal questions in that sort of, in that 00:21:54.769 --> 00:21:57.250 way. We also have quite a number of students 00:21:57.250 --> 00:21:59.289 who are out of school for a specialized science 00:21:59.289 --> 00:22:02.829 math program. And so, you know, the... the life 00:22:02.829 --> 00:22:05.009 of an elective teacher is always trying to sell 00:22:05.009 --> 00:22:07.430 and convince students the value of their courses. 00:22:07.809 --> 00:22:09.630 And to that end, I think there's a lot of students 00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:11.549 who have a natural affinity for the sciences 00:22:11.549 --> 00:22:14.289 who have taken to things like some of the psychology 00:22:14.289 --> 00:22:17.349 of criminal law, some of the issues around sort 00:22:17.349 --> 00:22:20.230 of how moral judgments are made. That has sparked 00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:22.049 a lot of interest where they see some maybe connections 00:22:22.049 --> 00:22:24.470 between their interest in biology, interest in 00:22:24.470 --> 00:22:27.349 other sciences and criminal law. We listened 00:22:27.349 --> 00:22:30.869 to something recently about this idea of free 00:22:30.869 --> 00:22:33.049 will and there's like an area of like philosophy 00:22:33.049 --> 00:22:35.630 and criminal law that kind of converged to argue 00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:37.630 that everything is sort of, you know, comes down 00:22:37.630 --> 00:22:39.930 to a causal relationship and can anyone really 00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:42.289 be held accountable for their actions? And you 00:22:42.289 --> 00:22:44.390 can only imagine the kinds of questions and, 00:22:44.390 --> 00:22:46.890 you know, shock and dismay, but also interest 00:22:46.890 --> 00:22:49.670 that was arisen for that. So I think that's also 00:22:49.670 --> 00:22:51.450 a piece that I've been noticing as well since 00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:54.769 being at the school I'm at. Yeah, and you mentioned 00:22:54.769 --> 00:22:57.250 the what if questions. And when you talk about 00:22:57.250 --> 00:22:59.269 the law, the law can often bring up a lot of 00:22:59.269 --> 00:23:01.769 sensitive topics or some that might be uncomfortable. 00:23:02.069 --> 00:23:04.470 So I was wondering, how do you all as teachers 00:23:04.470 --> 00:23:07.529 navigate those issues, especially with your students? 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.269 And how do you approach them from a teacher's 00:23:10.269 --> 00:23:12.829 point of view? So Maria, how about you go first? 00:23:13.369 --> 00:23:16.410 This is definitely a difficult question that 00:23:16.410 --> 00:23:20.230 I think continues to come up, you know, not only 00:23:20.230 --> 00:23:24.269 in law, but across various. subject areas and 00:23:24.269 --> 00:23:26.769 grade levels as well and and we're seeing it 00:23:26.769 --> 00:23:28.930 a lot in history classes as well in politics 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:31.670 and and how to navigate this when we're we're 00:23:31.670 --> 00:23:35.289 engaging in conversations with you know students 00:23:35.289 --> 00:23:37.490 and communities and stakeholders that have competing 00:23:37.490 --> 00:23:41.470 interests at times um it's double -sided it's 00:23:41.470 --> 00:23:44.769 the reality of the world around us we can't hide 00:23:44.769 --> 00:23:47.440 from these conversations But I think it also 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:50.019 means you need to know your students and how 00:23:50.019 --> 00:23:52.519 you can navigate those conversations. And I've 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.539 been fortunate that oftentimes teaching for you, 00:23:55.619 --> 00:23:59.400 so grade 12 courses, oftentimes I've built those 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.220 relationships with students from grade nine. 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.380 A lot of time I've taught them across various 00:24:03.380 --> 00:24:08.039 years. You get to know your kids and their experiences 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:10.279 and their background and how that impacts the 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:12.519 way they see the world and really being able 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:15.599 to recognize that a topic that you may cover. 00:24:16.250 --> 00:24:18.250 you know, we'll work with one of our groups, 00:24:18.349 --> 00:24:21.309 but it may not work another time. But also knowing 00:24:21.309 --> 00:24:23.609 that you provide students the opportunity where 00:24:23.609 --> 00:24:27.210 if that topic or that conversation is too much 00:24:27.210 --> 00:24:28.670 for them, and it may not be too much for them 00:24:28.670 --> 00:24:31.009 every day of the week, but that given day that 00:24:31.009 --> 00:24:34.730 they have that opportunity to step away. At the 00:24:34.730 --> 00:24:36.910 same time, it's tricky, right? Because we don't 00:24:36.910 --> 00:24:39.009 want to make it where we can always step away 00:24:39.009 --> 00:24:40.650 from difficult conversations, because how do 00:24:40.650 --> 00:24:43.589 we ever navigate through the complexities of 00:24:43.589 --> 00:24:47.000 life around us if we always have an exit plan 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:50.660 or an option but I think setting guidelines within 00:24:50.660 --> 00:24:53.410 your classroom and and what i mean by guidelines 00:24:53.410 --> 00:24:55.150 is conversation guidelines what does it mean 00:24:55.150 --> 00:24:58.710 to be able to have these conversations appropriately 00:24:58.710 --> 00:25:02.349 respectfully responsibly within our classroom 00:25:02.349 --> 00:25:05.490 helps to eliminate some of those challenges that 00:25:05.490 --> 00:25:08.150 might come up again sometimes we may have community 00:25:08.150 --> 00:25:10.230 interests that might navigate those conversations 00:25:10.230 --> 00:25:13.470 as well and being able to work with families 00:25:13.470 --> 00:25:15.990 and broader community to see you know how do 00:25:15.990 --> 00:25:19.559 we do this in a way that you know upholds the 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:23.019 dignity of our students our families but also 00:25:23.019 --> 00:25:26.960 being able to to respond to what's going on around 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:32.180 us so for kind of going around back to your question 00:25:32.180 --> 00:25:35.180 is there really a way that you can come always 00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:37.759 avoid the difficulties of being uncomfortable 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.339 with these topics no are there ways that we can 00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:43.779 try to navigate it so our students can engage 00:25:43.779 --> 00:25:47.460 but be comfortable while engaging yes Do I have 00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:50.779 the solution for you? No. But I think recognizing 00:25:50.779 --> 00:25:56.980 that it's a process. There's not one magic, magical 00:25:56.980 --> 00:25:59.859 solution. And it may take a little bit of give 00:25:59.859 --> 00:26:03.160 and take to get there. Right. And Matt, how about 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:06.440 you? What are your thoughts on the issue? It's 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:08.539 certainly been something that's been top of mind, 00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:10.819 I think, in terms of the teachers that I've talked 00:26:10.819 --> 00:26:13.900 to both in law, the other subjects I teach business, 00:26:14.059 --> 00:26:17.240 in terms of how do we think about the connection 00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:19.180 between our subjects and the world around us 00:26:19.180 --> 00:26:22.299 i think that um to echo marie's point is that 00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:24.400 it starts with knowing the students in the classroom 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:27.200 and building a strong sense of community so teachers 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.680 often talk about building community norms and 00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:32.480 i think that this is important in terms of uh 00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:36.559 building a sense of mutual respect and tolerance 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.859 i think for each other's viewpoints uh based 00:26:39.859 --> 00:26:42.480 on human rights and centering those first in 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:46.200 our conversations and i find that when I've worked 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:47.900 with our students, they've all been wonderful 00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:51.119 in the sense that they're curious, they are eager 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:53.920 to understand each other's viewpoints. And I 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:56.759 think that it really becomes that process at 00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:59.200 the beginning of the semester of building that 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.660 shared sense of community so that we understand 00:27:01.660 --> 00:27:04.440 how to respect each other and how to uphold human 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.700 rights while we dive into some difficult issues. 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.099 With that said, one of the things that I was, 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:13.799 I think, given is excellent advice early on. 00:27:14.220 --> 00:27:16.839 is in my career was that not everything needs 00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:19.880 to be a debate. We have a choice in terms of 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:23.059 what we open up for wide ranging discussion in 00:27:23.059 --> 00:27:24.740 the class. And there are some topics out there 00:27:24.740 --> 00:27:26.660 that might cause harm to some of our students. 00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:29.079 And if we know our students well, we can try 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:31.440 and think about those things ahead of time and 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:33.220 potentially think, is there another way that 00:27:33.220 --> 00:27:34.920 we can discuss this? Is this something that is 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:39.269 better discussed? through more of students moving 00:27:39.269 --> 00:27:41.690 around and working on whiteboards? Is this something 00:27:41.690 --> 00:27:44.690 students can talk about in pairs? And I think 00:27:44.690 --> 00:27:46.950 that this has been something I've noticed has 00:27:46.950 --> 00:27:50.140 been effective because... I think sometimes students 00:27:50.140 --> 00:27:52.599 come into law class with the assumption that 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:54.500 it's going to be debate class and that it's going 00:27:54.500 --> 00:27:58.019 to be wide ranging class wide discussion. And 00:27:58.019 --> 00:28:00.619 there are absolutely moments where that is a 00:28:00.619 --> 00:28:03.240 wonderful thing to have happen, but not every 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.400 topic is necessarily suited for that. And I think 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.039 that one of the things that I think quite frequently 00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.460 about is what are the right topics to help us 00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:14.200 get at the law? Is there another way that we 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:16.789 can? get at a particular concept or a bit of 00:28:16.789 --> 00:28:20.210 learning for our students that is going to ultimately 00:28:20.210 --> 00:28:22.990 ensure that students feel safe in the classroom 00:28:22.990 --> 00:28:25.349 and that their identities are being affirmed. 00:28:25.390 --> 00:28:28.009 So it's an ongoing process. And I think I think 00:28:28.009 --> 00:28:30.089 about that quite frequently, for example, with 00:28:30.089 --> 00:28:33.329 something like our discussion on charter rights. 00:28:33.450 --> 00:28:36.710 So, for example, students have questions about 00:28:36.710 --> 00:28:39.849 the framework for the rights concerning abortion, 00:28:39.990 --> 00:28:42.019 for example, in Canada. And that would be an 00:28:42.019 --> 00:28:44.140 example of a topic that I think it's settled 00:28:44.140 --> 00:28:46.500 law from the Supreme Court. And when we talk 00:28:46.500 --> 00:28:48.660 about, for example, life, liberty and security 00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:50.920 of the person, we've had very recent cases on 00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:52.940 medical assistance and dying. So we actually 00:28:52.940 --> 00:28:54.980 spend much more of the focus on that. And through, 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:58.359 I think, another topic that is a little bit, 00:28:58.359 --> 00:29:01.680 I think, safer, perhaps, in terms of ensuring 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.640 that. our students are not going to be harmed 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:05.720 in terms of a conversation, then that's a topic 00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:08.099 that we can absolutely go for. So it's a lot 00:29:08.099 --> 00:29:09.720 of different things. It's tough. It's ongoing 00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:11.640 work. But I think one of the joys is being able 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.480 to work with students and cultivate that thoughtfulness 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:16.420 and mutual respect as they go through the class. 00:29:17.299 --> 00:29:21.099 And Louis, how about you? Yeah, it's funny hearing 00:29:21.099 --> 00:29:23.900 Matt mention debate club. I think having supervised 00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:25.480 that for a bit, I think that had an influence 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:28.039 on me in terms of teaching law and not wanting 00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.099 to create some of those kinds of. you know, dichotomous 00:29:31.099 --> 00:29:32.839 discussions, that there's a lot more nuance. 00:29:33.819 --> 00:29:36.960 And I think I agree in the sense that there are 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:38.339 some things that are just not up for debate. 00:29:38.539 --> 00:29:40.420 And I think students understand that. I think 00:29:40.420 --> 00:29:42.819 one of the greatest gifts as a teacher in the 00:29:42.819 --> 00:29:44.759 last couple of years is having Ted Lasso come 00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.279 out when it did. And I have this sort of framework 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.579 on Ted Lasso that I promote to my students as 00:29:49.579 --> 00:29:52.000 sort of a beginning of the course where I talk 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:53.539 about, you know, I think everyone's probably 00:29:53.539 --> 00:29:55.680 seen the dartboard scene at this point, but the 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.900 being curious and not judgmental. And, you know, 00:29:58.900 --> 00:30:01.480 wanting to really have that as a real reflex 00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:03.240 in the class. That's what we're doing. We're 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:04.839 listening to what people are sharing, coming 00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:07.200 from a place of curiosity. That being said, there 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:08.859 are some things that are not up for debate, you 00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:10.759 know, and I think it's valuable to have some 00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:12.480 things like this year's charter challenge, where 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.319 the content is such that I think it would have 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.339 lent itself to kind of that dichotomous debate. 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.059 But I think the fact that the position students 00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:23.740 took from either respondent or repellent. help 00:30:23.740 --> 00:30:25.359 them see the nuance here. This was about, there 00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.140 was no question about the individual's identity. 00:30:27.259 --> 00:30:29.500 It was really about what's the appropriate legal 00:30:29.500 --> 00:30:31.740 response to what's happening. And I think things 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:33.440 like that have helped students see that some 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.160 of the debates they see maybe play out in broader 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:38.339 society are not really reflective of what a legal 00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:39.920 debate's like and what this course is supposed 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:43.220 to offer. Like Matt and Maria, I agree in terms 00:30:43.220 --> 00:30:47.619 of knowing your students. I think we made a very 00:30:47.619 --> 00:30:50.259 conscious choice, my partner and I, to get a 00:30:50.259 --> 00:30:52.380 job in the community that we work in and so we 00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:54.680 know our students quite well we know their families 00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:56.680 i grew up in the neighborhood that i teach in 00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:59.339 um and there's a sort of a sense of like what's 00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:01.799 happening in the neighborhood what's uh being 00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:05.059 discussed at home and so i have some some comfort 00:31:05.059 --> 00:31:06.720 that way and i think the value of also being 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.240 in a school for a number of years you know you 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:10.700 have a relationship with students their families 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:13.140 their siblings um you have a little more space 00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:15.160 sometimes engage in some of these issues you 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:16.599 can kind of read the room in a different way 00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:20.079 at the same time the challenge of teaching mostly 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:21.859 elective courses that some of these kids don't 00:31:21.859 --> 00:31:24.079 meet till they're in grade 11 or 12. And I don't 00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.440 know them quite well. And so just some practical 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:29.319 things, you know, doing some of those autobiography 00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:31.380 forms at the beginning of the course. And, you 00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:33.220 know, I've learned some really important things 00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:35.440 in terms of students identifying family members 00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:37.640 who have sought MAID, for example, and wanting 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:39.339 some time if that's going to be discussed in 00:31:39.339 --> 00:31:42.200 class. There's no way to have that come up unless 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:44.160 you're asking directly and having that information 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:45.799 shared with you. So I think that's been really 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.380 instructive. I also have a lot of conversations 00:31:48.380 --> 00:31:50.900 with my admin. And again, this is the value of 00:31:50.900 --> 00:31:52.940 also being in a school for a while, having that 00:31:52.940 --> 00:31:54.920 relationship, walking in there and saying, you 00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:57.539 know, some stuff happening. I imagine this is 00:31:57.539 --> 00:31:59.160 going to filter into our classroom. I just need 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.279 you to know this is happening, you know, not 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:03.460 as a permission and kind of thing, but just so 00:32:03.460 --> 00:32:05.640 that everyone's on the same page and understands 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:08.640 that. And that often these classes that we teach 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.480 are kind of it's a way of looking at what's happening, 00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:14.299 what's the pulse of the school, because they're 00:32:14.299 --> 00:32:16.869 not happening necessarily in math class. or science 00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:19.150 we can kind of have a sense of what's going on 00:32:19.150 --> 00:32:21.309 what are students kind of wrestling with and 00:32:21.309 --> 00:32:22.990 you know I think that's really important having 00:32:22.990 --> 00:32:24.849 those open lines of communication with your colleagues 00:32:24.849 --> 00:32:28.009 administration or otherwise that if things do 00:32:28.009 --> 00:32:29.789 go in a way that you're not anticipating because 00:32:29.789 --> 00:32:32.009 that can happen in these conversations that everyone's 00:32:32.009 --> 00:32:34.450 aware they have your back and that everything's 00:32:34.450 --> 00:32:37.750 not being done in a supportive way for their 00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:40.069 learning so I think those are the things that 00:32:40.069 --> 00:32:41.450 come to mind when it comes to addressing these 00:32:41.450 --> 00:32:44.569 sensitive topics. What have you noticed in your 00:32:44.569 --> 00:32:47.430 own classrooms that you might want other teachers 00:32:47.430 --> 00:32:51.690 to know about? I think that one of the biggest 00:32:51.690 --> 00:32:55.549 things that we think about as law teachers is 00:32:55.549 --> 00:32:57.930 the need to cater to the different pathways for 00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:00.029 students in our classes. We're an elective course. 00:33:00.250 --> 00:33:02.730 Not every student is taking this class with the 00:33:02.730 --> 00:33:04.930 intent of going to law school. And I think Luis 00:33:04.930 --> 00:33:08.049 brought that up perfectly early on is that it's 00:33:08.049 --> 00:33:09.869 not law school. It's trying to provide students 00:33:09.869 --> 00:33:12.680 with different entry points to law. So I know 00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:17.200 that certainly what I'm keen on and what in talking 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:19.720 with some of my colleagues we really love is 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:22.119 we love the practical stuff. We love being able 00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:24.900 to give students opportunities with mock trial. 00:33:25.099 --> 00:33:28.019 One of the things that I am really trying to 00:33:28.019 --> 00:33:30.640 encourage other teachers to do is incorporate 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.799 more mooting into the classroom. So mooting is 00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:36.849 a process of legal debate. in a sense is that 00:33:36.849 --> 00:33:40.230 it is the process of arguing out of mock appeal 00:33:40.230 --> 00:33:42.509 and ogen provides some really wonderful resources 00:33:42.509 --> 00:33:45.509 in terms of its charter challenge materials for 00:33:45.509 --> 00:33:50.210 um this and through these discussions we find 00:33:50.210 --> 00:33:52.410 that we're able to open up law to students from 00:33:52.410 --> 00:33:54.390 multiple pathways because whether students are 00:33:54.390 --> 00:33:57.900 looking at trying to get some experience doing 00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:00.000 some ordered thinking, or maybe they're thinking 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.279 of taking more of a paralegal or college bound 00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:04.680 path. They're still able to find commonality 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.279 with some of our learners who are in the university 00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:10.760 path in working on a mock trial and playing out 00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:13.900 the roles of lawyers, witnesses, and perhaps 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:17.199 doing some research on a topic there. So I think 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.260 that... The best advice I've been given at the 00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:22.599 end of the day is that we're focused on the students 00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:24.519 there. We're trying to ensure that they come 00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:26.900 away from the course feeling seen and that they 00:34:26.900 --> 00:34:30.679 can pinpoint, right, that they have done something, 00:34:30.739 --> 00:34:32.519 I think, that is difficult. And there is a joy 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:34.659 in doing difficult things and building that. 00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.760 that resilience and being able to support our 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:39.900 students as they um take that on so i've really 00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:42.219 had the pleasure of coaching mock trial for a 00:34:42.219 --> 00:34:44.320 number of years now to see students going out 00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:47.699 there and being able to compete against other 00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:50.219 schools through ogen's competitions has been 00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:52.559 wonderful but at the same time seeing some students 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.800 in for example our grade 11 classes who perhaps 00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:58.260 hadn't seen themselves in law before or are not 00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:00.869 really planning on continuing on with it find 00:35:00.869 --> 00:35:02.869 that they're enjoying the mock trial process. 00:35:03.030 --> 00:35:05.230 They're enjoying getting exposure to things like 00:35:05.230 --> 00:35:07.429 moots in the grade 12. That's been really satisfying, 00:35:07.650 --> 00:35:10.769 I think, for me. That's great. And Maria, how 00:35:10.769 --> 00:35:13.769 about you? I think one of the most important 00:35:13.769 --> 00:35:17.070 things is we recognize that the curriculum, there's 00:35:17.070 --> 00:35:18.809 a lot of content. I mean, each of those strands 00:35:18.809 --> 00:35:21.210 in themselves could be an entire course. And 00:35:21.210 --> 00:35:24.590 I think it's important that we are reading the 00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:26.690 room, reading our students, the world around 00:35:26.690 --> 00:35:29.849 us, and don't... rush the exploration of a topic 00:35:29.849 --> 00:35:32.590 or an issue simply for the sake of getting through 00:35:32.590 --> 00:35:34.170 all the curriculum by the end of the semester. 00:35:34.730 --> 00:35:38.090 And I think really recognizing where students 00:35:38.090 --> 00:35:41.210 are at and maybe that means we need to start 00:35:41.210 --> 00:35:43.690 with the foundations. Maybe that means that we 00:35:43.690 --> 00:35:46.230 can progress a little bit quicker. Maybe it means 00:35:46.230 --> 00:35:47.929 I need somewhere in between because my students 00:35:47.929 --> 00:35:50.250 are coming in from different entry points. It's 00:35:50.250 --> 00:35:52.989 very easy to get caught up in, you know, I have 00:35:52.989 --> 00:35:55.369 X amount of days to get through this my own curriculum 00:35:55.369 --> 00:35:58.010 and I need to get to the finish line. But I think 00:35:58.010 --> 00:35:59.690 we're really doing a disservice to our students. 00:36:00.429 --> 00:36:04.469 If we treat, you know, treat our courses in that 00:36:04.469 --> 00:36:06.670 way, if we treat life in that way, because then 00:36:06.670 --> 00:36:08.510 they get into this position where they think, 00:36:08.530 --> 00:36:10.869 you know, life is rigid. There aren't there isn't 00:36:10.869 --> 00:36:13.710 flexibility. There aren't opportunities to explore 00:36:13.710 --> 00:36:16.289 different pathways. And similarly with, you know, 00:36:16.289 --> 00:36:19.699 post -secondary. you know aspirations how many 00:36:19.699 --> 00:36:21.920 of our students have an idea by the time they're 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:23.880 16 17 where they're going to be in three four 00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:26.260 years and for many of them in three or four years 00:36:26.260 --> 00:36:27.960 they're nowhere where they thought they would 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.059 be and i think we need to treat our courses in 00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:33.300 a similar fashion and that means providing different 00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:36.159 ways to understand the law whether it is through 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.280 some of that experiential learning mock trials 00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:40.159 whether it's within your class or through the 00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:43.179 extracurricular regional competitions that exist 00:36:43.179 --> 00:36:46.579 across the province. I definitely think knowing 00:36:46.579 --> 00:36:49.280 your students is... going to help you guide what's 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.400 the most effective way to do that and again you 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.820 may have students that are are focused on becoming 00:36:55.820 --> 00:36:58.260 lawyers and that's that's how we are going to 00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:01.179 structure the class to some extent but also recognizing 00:37:01.179 --> 00:37:03.159 that there may be some students who that isn't 00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:06.219 the plan and because of timetabling issues the 00:37:06.219 --> 00:37:08.500 only option they had was that grade 11 law class 00:37:08.500 --> 00:37:11.820 and now we're finding opportunities to get them 00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:14.900 interested they're finding ways for them to to 00:37:14.900 --> 00:37:17.500 buy into it you know what we're what we're essentially 00:37:17.500 --> 00:37:21.079 in that classroom, right? And hoping that having 00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:23.380 these elective courses, we might see them again 00:37:23.380 --> 00:37:25.739 in grade 12 because there was something in that 00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:28.239 course that drew them in and now you kind of 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:30.920 got them hooked, right? So again, being flexible, 00:37:31.019 --> 00:37:33.579 not sticking to the curriculum in the sense of 00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:36.659 you have to get through it all and really letting 00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:38.500 your students and the world around you kind of 00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:42.119 guide how you're going to explore your program. 00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.179 And Lewis, how about you? Anything you want to 00:37:45.179 --> 00:37:48.519 share with other high school law teachers? Yeah, 00:37:48.579 --> 00:37:50.559 I mean, first, I'd love to be an opportunity 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:52.639 to have more advice shared with me from other 00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:54.119 law teachers. I don't know if Matt and Maria 00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:56.280 feel the same, but it feels like we work in silos 00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:57.960 often. And, you know, I'm the only law teacher 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:01.000 in my school. And, you know, it's very rare that 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.320 I get an opportunity to kind of talk to other 00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:04.880 individuals or listen to other individuals who 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:08.019 teach law. But to that end, I agree in the sense 00:38:08.019 --> 00:38:11.719 that I think Robert Mewini, a former coordinator 00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:14.619 for social world studies at CDSB. often talk 00:38:14.619 --> 00:38:16.860 to me about the idea of like a thinking of the 00:38:16.860 --> 00:38:19.059 course as uh teaching them how to use a chainsaw 00:38:19.059 --> 00:38:21.960 and that the uh the skills that you're developing 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:23.579 you know they're going to be able to apply to 00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:26.559 any piece of wood later on and and you know you 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:28.300 can change the case studies there's so many things 00:38:28.300 --> 00:38:30.300 you're going to be hit with there's not one set 00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:32.739 approach to teaching law but if you can get them 00:38:32.739 --> 00:38:34.800 prepared to be able to approach whatever it is 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:36.739 that comes their way that's the goal really and 00:38:37.309 --> 00:38:39.130 And just like I think anyone who teaches history, 00:38:39.190 --> 00:38:40.889 they know that this course gets longer and more 00:38:40.889 --> 00:38:43.150 complicated every year, regardless of the curriculum 00:38:43.150 --> 00:38:46.489 expectations changing. And to that end, my strongest 00:38:46.489 --> 00:38:49.449 advice would be you're never going to have your 00:38:49.449 --> 00:38:51.590 curriculum down because you're going to constantly, 00:38:51.829 --> 00:38:55.110 I mean, be reading newspaper, be, you know, constantly 00:38:55.110 --> 00:38:57.130 just learning. You need to be curious. You need 00:38:57.130 --> 00:38:58.889 to be looking and thinking about what has changed, 00:38:59.050 --> 00:39:01.929 what's happening, going on Supreme Court databases 00:39:01.929 --> 00:39:04.750 to read cases. Ken needs to be your best friend. 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:07.360 know some of those cases you can you can reference 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.280 the students because the other thing is some 00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:10.960 of those really really keen students are going 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:12.659 to find those cases they're going to ask you 00:39:12.659 --> 00:39:14.619 questions and i can tell you how many questions 00:39:14.619 --> 00:39:16.579 i've had to field about section 7 of the charter 00:39:16.579 --> 00:39:19.599 that i was in no way prepared to field that really 00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:21.840 comes from just the curiosity and love for the 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.119 subject area you need to kind of be proactive 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:26.920 in learning yourself as a teacher because the 00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:29.119 students will be ready to go in that direction 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.340 whether you are or not Yeah, I can also attest 00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:35.280 to students being very proactive. I've done some 00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:37.559 workshops for OGEN in high schools, and usually 00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.920 we end up with a Q &A session. And the things 00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:42.940 that the students would ask me really surprised 00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:46.679 me because these were questions that had I been 00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:48.880 in their shoes, I would have like no idea about 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:51.260 because they were asking me about the bar exam, 00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:55.260 the LSAT, and how do I best study for the LSAT, 00:39:55.300 --> 00:39:57.199 like things like these that when I was in high 00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:00.340 school, I never paid attention to. I definitely 00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:02.860 recognize that students these days, or maybe 00:40:02.860 --> 00:40:04.480 other students my year were also like that too, 00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:06.940 and it was just me, but students are very, very 00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:09.500 proactive and they will do the research if they're 00:40:09.500 --> 00:40:12.280 curious about it. Matt, I don't know about you, 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:15.159 but when I was in law class in high school, one 00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:17.460 of my favorite things that we ever did was going 00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:20.579 down to the courthouse in downtown Toronto. I 00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:22.519 don't know if you've also had that experience 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:26.980 as well at PET. I did. It was in grade 11. So 00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:29.579 I had Mr. Logan, and I know that you had Madame 00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:32.019 Garofalo from listening to the previous podcast. 00:40:32.099 --> 00:40:36.139 So we went down to the court at 361 University 00:40:36.139 --> 00:40:39.260 Avenue downtown, and we had an opportunity to 00:40:39.260 --> 00:40:41.860 watch Criminal Court. And I recall being, I think, 00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:44.300 a little more focused on the Eden Center trip 00:40:44.300 --> 00:40:46.719 that you could do for lunch afterwards at the 00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:52.510 time. But, you know, it was good. I find students 00:40:52.510 --> 00:40:55.289 take away from being in court. And I've run a 00:40:55.289 --> 00:40:57.309 court field trip every year that I've been teaching 00:40:57.309 --> 00:40:59.429 law, including one next month where our students 00:40:59.429 --> 00:41:02.150 are going downtown to the Toronto Megacourt at 00:41:02.150 --> 00:41:05.130 10 Armory, is that it's real in there. And I 00:41:05.130 --> 00:41:07.429 think that that's the thing I hear students saying 00:41:07.429 --> 00:41:10.429 is that you can feel the atmosphere and it makes 00:41:10.429 --> 00:41:13.070 things much more tangible for them in terms of 00:41:13.070 --> 00:41:16.190 the gravity of what we are dealing with. And 00:41:16.190 --> 00:41:19.639 it's a... i think an experience where they're 00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.360 able to really see law play out in a practical 00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:25.579 context and i think it's a real highlight for 00:41:25.579 --> 00:41:28.219 a lot of our students being able to go and um 00:41:28.219 --> 00:41:31.679 and walk into a court and have the benefit of 00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:35.500 seeing the way that lawyers are you know operating 00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:37.880 in terms of their submissions the way that judges 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:41.360 uh you know manage the courtroom and it's a great 00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:44.300 thing and i always love providing students with 00:41:44.300 --> 00:41:46.880 the opportunities to hear from just professionals 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.780 in the classroom um i think that one of the funny 00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:54.559 things i find is students are so eager and they 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:56.739 have great questions and i think that although 00:41:57.480 --> 00:41:59.619 I can attest to the experience of going through 00:41:59.619 --> 00:42:02.599 the LSAT and Osgoode and all of those things 00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:04.739 with the bar exam is that they still see me as 00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:06.400 their teacher. And it's nice to hear from someone 00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:09.179 who's currently in the profession. So any opportunities 00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:12.139 to get interaction with lawyers, being in the 00:42:12.139 --> 00:42:14.559 courts and seeing law play out in a real context 00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:18.000 is so valuable for our students. And this all 00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:21.239 flows directly into my next question. So Maria 00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:23.400 and Louis, from your perspective and your experiences, 00:42:23.780 --> 00:42:26.619 why should more people in the legal profession 00:42:26.619 --> 00:42:31.360 get involved with teaching or showing the ropes 00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:35.079 to high school students? I think we forget that 00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:37.239 students are far more aware of the world around 00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:40.579 them than maybe we think a lot of the times. 00:42:40.699 --> 00:42:43.380 They're passionate. They're interested. They 00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:47.070 are, you know, our future change makers. I think 00:42:47.070 --> 00:42:50.250 giving students the opportunity to have those 00:42:50.250 --> 00:42:53.630 conversations with people who are in the profession 00:42:53.630 --> 00:42:56.929 will give them an opportunity to see that it 00:42:56.929 --> 00:42:59.170 isn't going to be what you see on law and order 00:42:59.170 --> 00:43:01.789 or on suits. You know, we mentioned it previously. 00:43:02.010 --> 00:43:03.489 And I think for a lot of our students, they come 00:43:03.489 --> 00:43:05.650 in thinking this is the reality. And, you know, 00:43:05.670 --> 00:43:08.510 Matt spoke to taking students to the courthouse 00:43:08.510 --> 00:43:10.630 and making it real for them. And I think for 00:43:10.630 --> 00:43:13.730 a lot of students, it really gives them the chance 00:43:13.730 --> 00:43:17.699 to see that this is real life. and it's not scripted 00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:20.840 and the way we may see it on television or in 00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:23.340 film is not what we see in the courtroom there's 00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:26.239 real emotions there's people's lives that are 00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:28.179 being impacted by decisions that are being made 00:43:28.179 --> 00:43:31.679 so i think more people need to get involved with 00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:33.820 high school students because high school students 00:43:33.820 --> 00:43:36.219 are are also going to be engaging with the law 00:43:36.219 --> 00:43:39.460 in various ways whether from a perspective of 00:43:39.460 --> 00:43:41.519 their working in the profession or maybe they 00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:43.400 are having to navigate the legal justice system 00:43:44.190 --> 00:43:47.429 at the same time i think um we could also learn 00:43:47.429 --> 00:43:50.329 a lot from students we often you know traditional 00:43:50.329 --> 00:43:53.030 educational practice has put the educator at 00:43:53.030 --> 00:43:55.949 the front of the room and you know you are downloading 00:43:55.949 --> 00:43:58.030 this information onto your students and they 00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:01.210 are there receiving it and and i think if we 00:44:01.210 --> 00:44:03.889 we shift that we can realize that our students 00:44:03.889 --> 00:44:05.769 understand the world in the way that maybe as 00:44:05.769 --> 00:44:07.969 adults we don't necessarily see it because we 00:44:07.969 --> 00:44:09.610 haven't grown up with social media in the way 00:44:09.610 --> 00:44:12.309 they have and i think having the opportunity 00:44:13.150 --> 00:44:15.389 for those who work in the profession to get to 00:44:15.389 --> 00:44:17.429 get involved with high school students they can 00:44:17.429 --> 00:44:20.030 see what's important to them right now how are 00:44:20.030 --> 00:44:23.510 they navigating the legal system in different 00:44:23.510 --> 00:44:25.849 ways how are they using social media as a way 00:44:25.849 --> 00:44:30.190 to advocate for change and for you know community 00:44:30.190 --> 00:44:33.789 and we can't do that if we don't engage with 00:44:33.789 --> 00:44:37.530 students lewis spoke to as law teachers were 00:44:37.530 --> 00:44:39.829 often siloed in our departments and very seldom 00:44:39.829 --> 00:44:41.829 do we get opportunities to interact with others. 00:44:41.909 --> 00:44:44.849 I think similarly with students we kind of put 00:44:44.849 --> 00:44:48.070 them in this category of you won't know yet until 00:44:48.070 --> 00:44:51.099 you've left high school. But they do know, and 00:44:51.099 --> 00:44:53.860 I think having opportunities where adults can 00:44:53.860 --> 00:44:57.119 help students navigate what it means to work 00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:59.840 in the legal field, but also what it means to 00:44:59.840 --> 00:45:02.099 not work in the legal field, I think is important. 00:45:02.219 --> 00:45:03.780 And you can't do that unless you're having conversations 00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:06.699 with youth and having conversations with youth 00:45:06.699 --> 00:45:08.860 before they get to the point where they're your 00:45:08.860 --> 00:45:11.679 colleagues. Amazing. And Louis, what's your take 00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:14.340 on this? So it's interesting. When I was thinking 00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:17.579 about this question, my father was a caretaker 00:45:17.579 --> 00:45:20.929 at U of T. And more than anything else that I 00:45:20.929 --> 00:45:24.710 came across in school, it did the most to demystify 00:45:24.710 --> 00:45:27.090 post -secondary to me. I was on a regular basis 00:45:27.090 --> 00:45:29.469 on campus with him doing his thing, unlocking 00:45:29.469 --> 00:45:32.070 doors, you know, helping with, you know, I worked 00:45:32.070 --> 00:45:34.050 sometimes in the summer and I would meet professors. 00:45:34.289 --> 00:45:35.869 I would meet instructors. I would meet people 00:45:35.869 --> 00:45:39.030 that were kind of in a different sphere of society 00:45:39.030 --> 00:45:41.309 to some degree. And they were just people. And 00:45:41.309 --> 00:45:44.090 it was really nice to be able to kind of interact 00:45:44.090 --> 00:45:46.369 that way. And so university wasn't this kind 00:45:46.369 --> 00:45:50.190 of. scary place when it came time to going there 00:45:50.190 --> 00:45:52.090 and i think for students it's similar just meeting 00:45:52.090 --> 00:45:54.269 the individuals that make up the legal system 00:45:54.269 --> 00:45:56.570 helps demystify i think it's a huge part of access 00:45:56.570 --> 00:45:58.909 to justice i think seeing these people as real 00:45:58.909 --> 00:46:03.090 people um i'm often floored by whether it's clerks 00:46:03.090 --> 00:46:05.469 or or judges or lawyers that have spoken about 00:46:05.469 --> 00:46:07.789 the very secure this path that brought them to 00:46:07.789 --> 00:46:10.829 law and like even listening to sort of uh matt's 00:46:10.829 --> 00:46:13.000 journey to teaching it's just It's fascinating 00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:15.440 to think of these individuals as more than just 00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:18.639 their official title, that even a judge that 00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:20.880 holds sort of a very esteemed position in society 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.280 has some interest outside of that and maybe pursued 00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:25.679 things before they eventually went down that 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:28.480 path. And so I think it does a lot to show that 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:32.159 this is the system. I think the students often 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:36.400 come to realize maybe ethnically it's made of 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:39.679 just people and they're fallible. And it's important 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:41.579 to know that it's people trying their best to 00:46:41.579 --> 00:46:44.780 make this very human system work. And a lot of 00:46:44.780 --> 00:46:47.420 what we have in our society, a lot of the rights, 00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:49.880 freedoms, sort of things that we hold dear are 00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:53.340 very vulnerable and they're made up, kind of 00:46:53.340 --> 00:46:54.820 held together by these individuals. So I think 00:46:54.820 --> 00:46:57.360 it's important for students to see what role 00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:00.159 they have, see that they are individuals that 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:02.940 have lives outside of their profession as well. 00:47:02.980 --> 00:47:04.619 And they care about maintaining what they do 00:47:04.619 --> 00:47:07.780 for society. And then even just from the... of 00:47:07.780 --> 00:47:09.119 like, when else do you get to talk to someone 00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.420 like this? I mean, to Matt's point, when they 00:47:11.420 --> 00:47:14.420 go to court and see these interactions, it's 00:47:14.420 --> 00:47:15.840 probably the first time a lot of them will have 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.039 an interaction with a lawyer or a judge, or, 00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:20.239 you know, if they actually themselves have some 00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:21.960 instance where they're involved in the criminal 00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.039 justice system. So what a great way to get them 00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:27.219 involved before that even happening and in a 00:47:27.219 --> 00:47:29.119 different environment, something that is on their 00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:31.579 home turf to some degree. Yeah, I mean, for me 00:47:31.579 --> 00:47:34.329 personally, meeting legal professionals, earlier 00:47:34.329 --> 00:47:36.809 as a high school student really changed my life. 00:47:37.329 --> 00:47:39.889 Going back to that field trip to the courthouse 00:47:39.889 --> 00:47:42.130 downtown when I was in high school, I tell the 00:47:42.130 --> 00:47:44.969 story all the time. But on that trip, I met a 00:47:44.969 --> 00:47:47.250 judge with the entire class. And she basically 00:47:47.250 --> 00:47:48.809 said, you know, if you want to be in the legal 00:47:48.809 --> 00:47:51.150 profession, do something fun for your undergrad. 00:47:51.510 --> 00:47:54.090 And she told us that she did opera singing for 00:47:54.090 --> 00:47:56.429 her undergrad, which I thought was the most cool 00:47:56.429 --> 00:47:59.650 thing I've ever heard in my life. And I don't 00:47:59.650 --> 00:48:02.389 know, like meeting her was really inspiring because 00:48:02.389 --> 00:48:05.690 I've never met an actual judge before that time. 00:48:05.849 --> 00:48:09.329 And I think hearing what she had to say to me 00:48:09.329 --> 00:48:12.150 as a student really set the course for where 00:48:12.150 --> 00:48:15.110 I wanted my own career to go. And, you know, 00:48:15.130 --> 00:48:17.289 also being able to attend a trial afterwards, 00:48:17.389 --> 00:48:20.909 I think that really opened my eyes to what law 00:48:20.909 --> 00:48:23.690 is like in practice rather than just being in 00:48:23.690 --> 00:48:26.599 the classroom. But before we end things off, 00:48:26.659 --> 00:48:28.239 I wanted to ask you all this question because 00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:30.099 you've been teaching law to high school students 00:48:30.099 --> 00:48:32.820 for a while now. But for each of you, what have 00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:35.539 been your favorite moments being a high school 00:48:35.539 --> 00:48:38.139 law teacher? And Louis, maybe we'll go back to 00:48:38.139 --> 00:48:41.139 you first. Sure. I think there are two things 00:48:41.139 --> 00:48:45.239 that stick out. One is when those arguments in 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:48.019 class spill over into the hallway. Or my favorite 00:48:48.019 --> 00:48:51.539 is when a mock trial of a fictional case with 00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:53.980 no stakes and no one actually going to prison 00:48:53.980 --> 00:48:56.550 or not. they're arguing in the hallway about 00:48:56.550 --> 00:48:58.250 whether that was hearsay. They're arguing whether 00:48:58.250 --> 00:48:59.869 that evidence was used correctly with each other. 00:48:59.969 --> 00:49:02.070 And that's, there's something really, really 00:49:02.070 --> 00:49:05.090 wonderful about seeing that. And it's, you know, 00:49:05.110 --> 00:49:06.530 some of it's predicated on them wanting to win, 00:49:06.650 --> 00:49:08.909 but it's also this idea of, you know, they had, 00:49:09.010 --> 00:49:10.650 they, they were, they bought in, right. They 00:49:10.650 --> 00:49:12.110 were really into it and they wanted to see it 00:49:12.110 --> 00:49:13.469 play out the way they did. And that's always 00:49:13.469 --> 00:49:17.630 valuable. The other one is, this is such a niche 00:49:17.630 --> 00:49:21.760 area in high school. And I often, have the pleasure 00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:24.000 of meeting kids that before they took this class 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:26.019 they didn't really have their place in the school 00:49:26.019 --> 00:49:28.340 like they weren't necessarily the athletes they 00:49:28.340 --> 00:49:30.980 weren't excelling in the math and sciences and 00:49:30.980 --> 00:49:33.099 this isn't even something that you know came 00:49:33.099 --> 00:49:35.719 onto the radar but something just kind of clicked 00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:38.760 and i remember a mother at a at a graduation 00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:40.880 a couple years ago student like a beloved student 00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:44.079 margo saying like my kid just kind of found their 00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:46.500 place with this class and there's something really 00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:49.119 really inspiring about that you never know when 00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:52.010 you're teaching them how many of these conversations 00:49:52.010 --> 00:49:54.070 are filtering in at home like i'm always surprised 00:49:54.070 --> 00:49:55.989 to hear that for a teacher interview like they're 00:49:55.989 --> 00:49:57.889 arguing about this case or arguing about this 00:49:57.889 --> 00:50:00.449 trolley problem or what have you and so it's 00:50:00.449 --> 00:50:02.809 that it's just kind of providing a space where 00:50:02.809 --> 00:50:04.389 you don't really fit into the other pathways 00:50:04.389 --> 00:50:06.650 to some degree you can kind of provide students 00:50:06.650 --> 00:50:08.889 with creative outlets to explore issues in a 00:50:08.889 --> 00:50:12.289 different way um it's it's always seeing kids 00:50:12.289 --> 00:50:14.809 find their place in this class in this school 00:50:14.809 --> 00:50:16.909 and then maybe changing the trajectory of their 00:50:16.909 --> 00:50:19.360 schooling after this that's been my probably 00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:21.239 my most favorite thing about teaching this subject 00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:24.159 area. Matt, how about you? I would echo what 00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:28.500 Luis just said, is that it's often, I think, 00:50:28.519 --> 00:50:31.860 surprising when you get those conversations with 00:50:31.860 --> 00:50:35.840 parents where you find out how much a particular... 00:50:36.489 --> 00:50:39.030 field trip or a particular club such as mock 00:50:39.030 --> 00:50:40.969 trial meant to their student and finding their 00:50:40.969 --> 00:50:44.489 own way in class. And I often joke with some 00:50:44.489 --> 00:50:47.389 of my friends who are lawyers who have many questions, 00:50:47.469 --> 00:50:49.269 I guess, about what I do in the classroom. I 00:50:49.269 --> 00:50:51.610 kind of joke that I feel like I'm making new 00:50:51.610 --> 00:50:53.429 favorite moments every day in the sense that 00:50:53.429 --> 00:50:56.230 I think of today, I was doing my cafeteria supervision 00:50:56.230 --> 00:50:58.630 and there was one of my grade 12 students from 00:50:58.630 --> 00:51:00.590 last semester who is going to be participating. 00:51:01.389 --> 00:51:03.530 in a moot very soon. And she's like, Mr. Wilkes, 00:51:03.590 --> 00:51:05.909 and like comes up to me. And we're talking in 00:51:05.909 --> 00:51:09.630 some, you know, detail about the King against 00:51:09.630 --> 00:51:11.409 Campbell case from the Supreme Court of Canada 00:51:11.409 --> 00:51:15.210 that she's preparing for. And I think that one 00:51:15.210 --> 00:51:17.769 of the really satisfying things that we see is 00:51:17.769 --> 00:51:22.130 students are able to extend and reach outside 00:51:22.130 --> 00:51:23.989 of their comfort zone, wherever they're coming 00:51:23.989 --> 00:51:26.710 from, in terms of their pathway, is seeing them 00:51:26.710 --> 00:51:30.010 challenge themselves and seeing themselves be 00:51:30.010 --> 00:51:33.199 able to you know, see themselves, I think, in 00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:36.340 the law and the skills that we develop in class. 00:51:36.500 --> 00:51:39.300 So last semester, I remember we had our initial 00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:41.840 moots and students tend to find these, I think, 00:51:41.860 --> 00:51:44.900 fairly intimidating at first in terms of carefully 00:51:44.900 --> 00:51:48.119 putting together arguments. And when I had the 00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:50.460 chance to act as the judge for some of these 00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:53.159 moots, I was blown away where it was really satisfying. 00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:55.559 But the most satisfying thing was to see the 00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:57.900 confidence that these students were able to build. 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:00.980 come away from the experience and feel like, 00:52:00.980 --> 00:52:02.980 you know, I was successful and I was able to 00:52:02.980 --> 00:52:06.639 see myself developing skills and, you know, progressing 00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:09.079 in whatever my journey kind of ends up being. 00:52:09.179 --> 00:52:12.599 So I think that that's really satisfying for 00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:14.500 me is those little interactions. And I think 00:52:14.500 --> 00:52:18.039 that the joy of this job is in those relationships 00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:20.360 that you build and the little moments where you 00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:22.420 realize that you were able to make a connection 00:52:22.420 --> 00:52:24.000 with a student, you're able to make them feel 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:28.340 seen and heard in your classroom. you hear that 00:52:28.340 --> 00:52:29.820 this is something that they're going to remember 00:52:29.820 --> 00:52:31.619 and i think that's a special thing and it's really 00:52:31.619 --> 00:52:34.539 a privilege to be able to work with really thoughtful 00:52:34.539 --> 00:52:39.699 caring um just uh wonderful humans in the classroom 00:52:39.699 --> 00:52:41.880 every day and i think i'm very lucky to be able 00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:45.639 to do that that is Absolutely incredible. And 00:52:45.639 --> 00:52:47.739 I think for me, like even when I was in my high 00:52:47.739 --> 00:52:50.320 school law class, one of the best things about 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:52.800 the class was that it really helped me to develop 00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:55.760 my critical thinking and also be more aware of 00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:58.400 what's happening in society. Because, you know, 00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:00.199 back in the day when I was in grade nine or 10, 00:53:00.260 --> 00:53:03.260 I was like, oh, yeah, I am definitely going to 00:53:03.260 --> 00:53:06.219 do science, you know, biology, chemistry, physics. 00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:08.739 And then in grade 10, I was like, yeah, this 00:53:08.739 --> 00:53:12.659 is. This is not for me. Like I am having not 00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:15.360 a great time doing science. But when I found 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.219 law, I was like, wow, this is great in terms 00:53:17.219 --> 00:53:20.000 of just building my confidence and helping me 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:21.579 to engage with the things that I love, which 00:53:21.579 --> 00:53:23.699 is like reading and writing and, you know, the 00:53:23.699 --> 00:53:26.420 news. But turning back to you, Maria, how about 00:53:26.420 --> 00:53:29.579 you? What has been most fulfilling for you as 00:53:29.579 --> 00:53:32.619 a high school law teacher? I think it has been. 00:53:33.409 --> 00:53:35.550 nice to see on my end is when students start 00:53:35.550 --> 00:53:37.730 to make the connections that maybe we don't explicitly 00:53:37.730 --> 00:53:40.750 talk about in class, where the legal system is 00:53:40.750 --> 00:53:43.869 not just about cases that we're discussing or 00:53:43.869 --> 00:53:46.250 what's happening in the courts, but there's connections 00:53:46.250 --> 00:53:51.849 to politics and economics and the social world 00:53:51.849 --> 00:53:54.250 around us. And I think when students see those 00:53:54.250 --> 00:53:56.710 overlaps, whether it's in their subject areas 00:53:56.710 --> 00:54:02.380 or just in life all around them, it's that oh 00:54:02.380 --> 00:54:04.800 my gosh moment right where hey we talked about 00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.940 this in in my in my politics class oftentimes 00:54:07.940 --> 00:54:10.739 not gonna lie most of the time it's me also teaching 00:54:10.739 --> 00:54:12.880 a politics class so they're kind of hearing it 00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:16.019 um in that class as well but we're looking at 00:54:16.019 --> 00:54:18.000 it through a different lens and it gives them 00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:20.280 the opportunity to understand the full picture 00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:23.579 that you if you understand a topic or an issue 00:54:23.579 --> 00:54:27.570 just through one side, you don't understand the 00:54:27.570 --> 00:54:29.730 broader impact that it has, not only on you as 00:54:29.730 --> 00:54:32.369 an individual, but on society as a whole. So 00:54:32.369 --> 00:54:35.070 I think those aha moments where my students can 00:54:35.070 --> 00:54:38.289 see the political, economic, social implications 00:54:38.289 --> 00:54:42.750 of cases that we're exploring, I think that's 00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:44.369 been probably one of the most meaningful things. 00:54:45.070 --> 00:54:48.550 And, you know, as someone who's also done mock 00:54:48.550 --> 00:54:50.309 trials with the students for quite a few years, 00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:54.440 for them to be able to take what we've been practicing 00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:57.059 in class and compete in regional competitions 00:54:57.059 --> 00:55:00.019 and then come back, you know, three, four years 00:55:00.019 --> 00:55:02.860 after they've graduated to say, you know, that 00:55:02.860 --> 00:55:06.000 experience I had in that courtroom really helped 00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:09.539 me look at what do I want to do with my life? 00:55:09.639 --> 00:55:12.440 And maybe for some, they did pursue, you know, 00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:14.420 the law because that's something that they wanted 00:55:14.420 --> 00:55:16.420 to do for a long time. And this just kind of 00:55:16.420 --> 00:55:19.619 solidified that. But for some kids and equally 00:55:19.619 --> 00:55:21.400 as important, maybe it was something they realized 00:55:21.400 --> 00:55:23.519 it wasn't for them. And that's OK. I think a 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:26.500 lot of the times we have this idea that grade 00:55:26.500 --> 00:55:29.099 12 students, grade 11 students should have their 00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:31.119 lives figured out by the time they're 17, 18 00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:33.800 years old. And I think the reality of it is they 00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:35.579 don't. And for many of them, they're going to 00:55:35.579 --> 00:55:38.340 change those paths partway into university or 00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:40.440 college or the workplace, depending on what their 00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:44.179 what their goals are. But if they can take some 00:55:44.179 --> 00:55:47.519 of those skills. those ability to collaborate 00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:50.079 with peers to have conversations and to do that 00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:52.400 effectively and hopefully those are the skills 00:55:52.400 --> 00:55:54.579 that they've developed in our courses i think 00:55:54.579 --> 00:55:56.539 that for me is one of the most fulfilling parts 00:55:56.539 --> 00:56:00.260 is how can my students be you know an active 00:56:00.260 --> 00:56:02.820 member of society regardless of how that you 00:56:02.820 --> 00:56:05.500 know looks for them in terms of a career side 00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:08.380 of things um but those skills that they've brought 00:56:08.380 --> 00:56:11.280 forward and hopefully they've had fun along the 00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:13.219 way um so i would say those are probably the 00:56:13.219 --> 00:56:16.000 few things that have stood out on my end These 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.280 are all amazing answers. And I think this also 00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:21.579 relates to my last question, which is why should 00:56:21.579 --> 00:56:25.940 students take law in high school? So Matt, how 00:56:25.940 --> 00:56:28.039 about we go back to you first? What's your pitch? 00:56:28.719 --> 00:56:34.320 I think oftentimes for students, the focus sometimes 00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.420 is on marks. And I think that one of the things 00:56:37.420 --> 00:56:39.840 that stuck with me where I had a chat when I 00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:43.059 was thinking. about my 2L courses at Osgoode 00:56:43.059 --> 00:56:46.059 with Professor Ben Berger there. He said, it's 00:56:46.059 --> 00:56:48.219 okay to take things just because you're interested, 00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:50.000 because you like them, even if you can't figure 00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:54.119 out how it fits. And I think that what I tell 00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:55.820 students is that you're going to learn a bit 00:56:55.820 --> 00:56:56.920 about the world. You're going to learn about 00:56:56.920 --> 00:56:59.119 how things work. You're going to have an opportunity 00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:02.039 to develop some great skills in terms of reading, 00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:04.739 writing, whatever your comfort level is with 00:57:04.739 --> 00:57:06.440 those things. And you're going to have a chance 00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:10.570 to do some cool activities. Different evaluations 00:57:10.570 --> 00:57:12.449 such as mock trials, moots that are going to 00:57:12.449 --> 00:57:15.469 allow you to put those skills into practice and 00:57:15.469 --> 00:57:17.329 really see right away how you're putting those 00:57:17.329 --> 00:57:20.530 skills to the test there. And I think that in 00:57:20.530 --> 00:57:23.409 speaking to students and hearing about why they 00:57:23.409 --> 00:57:25.829 recommend that friends take the course, that's 00:57:25.829 --> 00:57:27.809 what I hear the most is things like the mock 00:57:27.809 --> 00:57:30.110 trial where students, they remember content, 00:57:30.289 --> 00:57:32.519 but they also remember how. the course made them 00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:34.440 feel and how we as teachers made them feel and 00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:36.639 the relationships that we built there. So the 00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:38.800 goal for me is ensuring that students have that 00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:40.840 positive experience and can say that there was 00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:42.519 at least one thing in the course that they found 00:57:42.519 --> 00:57:45.199 that connected with them. And that years from 00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:49.099 now, when they are out. As a member of the public, 00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:51.780 they can say, oh, I recall learning that in law 00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:53.719 class and things and really feel like it was 00:57:53.719 --> 00:57:56.000 additive to their lives wherever they're going. 00:57:56.199 --> 00:57:59.500 So that's really the pitch for me there. And 00:57:59.500 --> 00:58:02.780 one of the things that I certainly felt coming 00:58:02.780 --> 00:58:04.840 away from law class is it really made me think 00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:06.739 about things. And much like you, Herman, said, 00:58:06.860 --> 00:58:08.780 is it developed those critical thinking skills 00:58:08.780 --> 00:58:10.800 and just helped me understand my place in the 00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:13.219 world a little bit more. And Maria, how about 00:58:13.219 --> 00:58:16.420 you? It's funny. I had a parent a couple of years 00:58:16.420 --> 00:58:19.119 ago, a parent teacher interviews come in and 00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:22.380 I'm thinking, OK, I've been teaching their child 00:58:22.380 --> 00:58:24.860 for a couple of years. I know them well. You 00:58:24.860 --> 00:58:26.719 know, they don't really need to be here, but 00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:28.539 wonderful. I always like the conversation. And 00:58:28.539 --> 00:58:31.340 I remember this mom sat down and looked at me 00:58:31.340 --> 00:58:35.860 and said, I am so mad at you. I went, OK. And 00:58:35.860 --> 00:58:39.260 she said, I'm so mad because for the last 12 00:58:39.260 --> 00:58:43.420 years we had a plan. My son had a plan of what 00:58:43.420 --> 00:58:46.659 he wanted to pursue. And then he took your course. 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:49.679 And now that plan has gone out the window. And 00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:53.019 so I didn't quite know how to respond at first. 00:58:53.059 --> 00:58:56.179 I was sitting there going, thank you, I guess. 00:58:57.559 --> 00:59:01.079 But I think what it helped me realize is that 00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:04.800 taking law opens up doors that maybe students 00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:09.320 didn't otherwise know existed. Again, whether 00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:13.420 it is to pursue a career as a lawyer or as a 00:59:13.420 --> 00:59:16.079 paralegal or in law enforcement, regardless of 00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:19.519 what that pathway looks like, it gives kids an 00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:22.340 opportunity to see the world in different ways, 00:59:22.579 --> 00:59:26.500 how it's interconnected, how you can't look at 00:59:26.500 --> 00:59:30.429 issues in society through... just a legal lens 00:59:30.429 --> 00:59:32.610 or just a political lens or a social record however 00:59:32.610 --> 00:59:36.210 i spoke to that previously um but really that 00:59:36.210 --> 00:59:38.769 it is something that has various parts to it 00:59:38.769 --> 00:59:43.789 and all those parts um need to function for you 00:59:43.789 --> 00:59:46.510 know broader society to function so at the end 00:59:46.510 --> 00:59:49.409 of the day i think i would say law students should 00:59:49.409 --> 00:59:52.969 take law because it may give you an option that 00:59:52.969 --> 00:59:55.630 you didn't know existed and whether it's just 00:59:55.630 --> 00:59:58.880 that you've developed some skills that you didn't 00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:02.199 know that you had, and now you've got the confidence 01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:04.840 to apply them in whatever field you want to pursue. 01:00:05.619 --> 01:00:07.860 So I always think back to that parent, you know, 01:00:07.860 --> 01:00:10.420 I don't think she was coming with the idea of, 01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:13.219 I'm mad at you, oh my gosh, my kid can't do this, 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:17.099 is, okay, now we have other options, and now 01:00:17.099 --> 01:00:21.440 I need to help him, I guess, nurture that new 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:23.639 passion that has come up. So at the end of the 01:00:23.639 --> 01:00:26.510 day, I think law really gives students helps 01:00:26.510 --> 01:00:29.269 them build confidence because it challenges them 01:00:29.269 --> 01:00:32.269 in ways that maybe you know other courses don't 01:00:32.269 --> 01:00:33.929 and not not that other courses aren't important 01:00:33.929 --> 01:00:37.730 but i think the fact that it's constantly changing 01:00:37.730 --> 01:00:41.070 and i can't Go to my binder. And most of us who 01:00:41.070 --> 01:00:43.110 are in education know we have that. You have 01:00:43.110 --> 01:00:45.070 that binder that you've built throughout your 01:00:45.070 --> 01:00:47.190 career on any given day if you need to pull out 01:00:47.190 --> 01:00:49.349 a lesson. But you can't do that with law because 01:00:49.349 --> 01:00:51.550 you need to be current and aware of what's going 01:00:51.550 --> 01:00:55.489 on around you. And that's life. And for some 01:00:55.489 --> 01:00:58.429 students, maybe pursuing law in high school will 01:00:58.429 --> 01:01:00.670 help them navigate life outside of high school. 01:01:01.130 --> 01:01:05.739 And last but not least, Louis. So superficially, 01:01:05.739 --> 01:01:07.920 I'll tell students, it's time for you to take 01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:10.139 a breath in the middle of your day when you're 01:01:10.139 --> 01:01:12.280 taking your three other sciences. Get to kind 01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:14.079 of use a different part of your brain. You get 01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:17.059 to engage with things that way. I'll also say, 01:01:17.139 --> 01:01:18.960 you know, you'll be hit at parties. You'll know 01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:21.860 all the random case law. You'll know all the 01:01:21.860 --> 01:01:23.960 kind of minutiae about the charter that you can 01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:27.219 kind of pull out when, you know, maybe the conversation 01:01:27.219 --> 01:01:30.460 is stalled a bit. But more realistically, I talk 01:01:30.460 --> 01:01:33.219 a lot about, you know, you're going to live in 01:01:33.219 --> 01:01:36.519 the society that's being created for you. And 01:01:36.519 --> 01:01:39.480 you need to have some method of having some influence 01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:41.139 over it and having some understanding of how 01:01:41.139 --> 01:01:42.559 to maybe change things the way you want them 01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:44.340 to look at, you know, not to be satisfied with 01:01:44.340 --> 01:01:48.019 what's been created for you. I think it's easy 01:01:48.019 --> 01:01:51.920 with the cases we look at to identify what's 01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:55.300 right, what's wrong. And I think for the students, 01:01:55.380 --> 01:01:57.159 you know, my pitch to them is that I want you 01:01:57.159 --> 01:01:58.820 to be able to see your life through the same 01:01:58.820 --> 01:02:01.239 lens, to be able to understand sort of the... 01:02:01.519 --> 01:02:03.599 the consequences of choices you make, the impact 01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:06.539 on other people, and really the things that we 01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:08.559 talk about in law are really about making life 01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:12.539 better and more equitable, things that include 01:02:12.539 --> 01:02:14.179 more people. So, you know, how is this going 01:02:14.179 --> 01:02:15.400 to impact your life? You know, you're not going 01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:16.679 to become a lawyer necessarily, you're not going 01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:19.139 to become a judge, but how are these questions 01:02:19.139 --> 01:02:22.239 going to impact you? And I think, you know, I've 01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:24.139 watched some and read some things from Michael 01:02:24.139 --> 01:02:25.920 Sandel. you know talking about you know what's 01:02:25.920 --> 01:02:27.559 the right thing to do in these situations and 01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:29.099 i think a lot of these questions are things that 01:02:29.099 --> 01:02:30.800 change you like once you engage in this kind 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:33.159 of thinking once you open that door you know 01:02:33.159 --> 01:02:37.360 you can't unknow it and i think one my goal for 01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:38.820 these students is to think about you know what 01:02:38.820 --> 01:02:41.119 kind of person do you want to be and it's easy 01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:43.699 to tell ourselves who we think we are and a course 01:02:43.699 --> 01:02:45.739 like this really helps us kind of discover what 01:02:45.739 --> 01:02:47.780 it is we want to be and what it is we need to 01:02:47.780 --> 01:02:50.579 do to be that kind of person so that's my my 01:02:50.579 --> 01:02:54.519 pitch when i talk to students But like really, 01:02:54.619 --> 01:02:55.780 you know, at the end of the day, it's kind of 01:02:55.780 --> 01:02:57.280 like you're going to have a lot of fun. You know, 01:02:57.280 --> 01:02:59.099 you're going to enjoy coming to this class. And 01:02:59.099 --> 01:03:01.880 I can say, and I'm sure Matt and Maria, you know, 01:03:01.940 --> 01:03:03.639 there's nothing more challenging than a second 01:03:03.639 --> 01:03:06.380 semester, first period grade 12 law class where 01:03:06.380 --> 01:03:08.519 you maybe get them until April before they check 01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:11.039 out. And this is a class you're going to want 01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:13.119 to keep coming to in May, even after you get 01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:15.079 your offers, where you're going to keep getting 01:03:15.079 --> 01:03:17.300 there on time, you know, and that's. You know, 01:03:17.300 --> 01:03:18.800 they're often kind of taken aback by that. It's 01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:20.320 like, you'll know what I mean when you get there 01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:21.440 and it's going to be a class you're going to 01:03:21.440 --> 01:03:22.639 really, you're going to make the extra effort 01:03:22.639 --> 01:03:24.900 to catch that stuff from us to be here on time. 01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:27.179 Well, I think that's a nice place to end things 01:03:27.179 --> 01:03:29.260 off. And I want to thank each and every one of 01:03:29.260 --> 01:03:31.219 you today for joining the show. I think it was 01:03:31.219 --> 01:03:34.380 a really fun conversation and I'm excited for 01:03:34.380 --> 01:03:36.860 people to listen to it. So thank you guys. I 01:03:36.860 --> 01:03:41.460 appreciate it. Thank you for tapping into this 01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:44.500 episode of Law Syrup. On the next episode, I 01:03:44.500 --> 01:03:47.039 am joined by my friend Dara Khuam as we explore 01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:50.179 the world of family law. Law Syrup is produced 01:03:50.179 --> 01:03:53.139 by me, Herman Wong, and the Ontario Justice Education 01:03:53.139 --> 01:03:56.360 Network. For more information and for accompanying 01:03:56.360 --> 01:03:59.840 resources, check out ojen .ca and our show notes. 01:04:00.059 --> 01:04:01.179 See you next time.