Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk
with special guests about hot topics in Canadian
law. This podcast is a co -production with the
Ontario Justice Education Network, also known
as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman Wong. Let's tap
it. Before we begin, please know that this show
is not intended to be legal advice or a replacement
for a legal representative. Hey, everyone. Welcome
back to Law Syrup. On today's episode, our guest
is Douglas Kwan, the Director of Advocacy and
Legal Services for the Advocacy Center for Tenants
Ontario, or ACTO for short. As a renter myself,
currently living in Toronto, and also most of
my friends, I've always been curious to know
more about tenants' rights and what resources
are available if a tenant needs help. I actually
saw Douglas on my TV one day, and I immediately
thought, hey, he'd be a really good guest for
the show. So you can imagine my happiness when
he said yes when I asked. So without further
ado, here is my conversation with Douglas Kwan.
So Douglas, welcome to the show. How are you?
I'm doing well, Herman. Thank you for inviting
me. You know, it's great because the reason why
I thought of you is I must have been watching
either CP24 or The National. And I remember seeing
you on my TV and I was like, this guy is so interesting.
And we haven't done an episode on tenants' rights.
And I thought, you know, as a tenant myself.
I would be very interested to hear what you have
to say, especially with the state of the rental
market here in Ontario. But before we get started,
there was a very interesting article on precedent
about yourself and the housing crisis. And the
initial few paragraphs talked about how musicians
actually influenced your desire to make change.
I was wondering if you can talk a little bit
more about that because I found it very interesting.
Sure. I'm happy to talk about it. So as I recall,
when I was first interviewed at the Press and
Article, they wanted a little history about my
background and why I was interested in social
justice. And so it really harkened back to when
I was a young boy back in the early 80s. What
was happening was in Ethiopia, I was experiencing
a once -in -a -generation famine. And a group
of musicians that I recognized at the time got
together and fundraised to support people that
are they don't know that are thousands of miles
away and that collective action spurred more
collective action in the united states and canada
and became a massive massive event where it brought
more knowledge across the globe about the plate
of people suffering in Ethiopia and really demonstrate
to me the power of collective action that where
if you know no task is too big when we can work
collectively to try and tackle that task and
problem and so it also taught me and redefined
community for me. Community can be defined as
your household, but it could also include the
entire planet. And so it really demonstrated
how we were all interconnected, that we can solve
big problems together. Who was singing? Do you
remember? Oh, my gosh, it was. So was there Bruce
Springsteen at that concert? Well, yeah, there's
a whole bunch of 80 stars. And, you know, you
hear it every Christmas. Gosh, I'm trying to
think. Do they know it's Christmas? Yeah, that
one, that one. Yeah, do they know it's Christmas?
That's the UK version. The Canadian version is
called Tears Are Not Enough. And the US version
is called We Are The World. And they were collectively
called Live Aid. And they had concerts at Bradley
Stadium and everywhere else. And Madonna was
part of it. U2 was part of it. And so that was
really the age of just, you know, just... where
musicians were more than just the music, and
they really believed that they could make a difference.
I know that you've worked previously at the Mississauga
Community Legal Services, but what led you to
work in poverty law and legal aid work generally?
It didn't come easily at first, and certainly
when I went to law school, it wasn't top of mind.
As most people think of law school or think of
a career in law, they usually think of what they
see on television, like criminal law, corporate
law. And when I went to law school, I had my
eyes set on, you know, one of those traditional
areas of law. And then I started at the Student
Legal Aid Clinic. And that's when I discovered
how impactful my skill set could be to individuals'
lives. And that's when I first introduced to
legal aid and poverty law. And for the listeners
who don't know, what exactly is legal aid? And
why is it important to the legal framework of
our province? that's born out of a concept that
poor people, low -income Canadians, disproportionately
suffer more when they're faced with legal challenges.
So if you think of, say, a person being fined
for trespassing because they're living on a park,
they have a tent in a park, they're fined $50,
let's just say. So people of other incomes, they
can just pay the fine and then that... they could
just move on, but not so people living in the
margins, people living with poverty. And so that
fine could be unpaid. Then that could impact
their ability to find housing, to find employment.
And worse still, that could lead to possible
incarceration. and so um it's important that
people who can't afford a lawyer have access
to to legal services and understanding their
legal rights to avoid those uh disastrous consequences
right that might result in uh very i guess i
would describe as you know subtle uh or minor
infractions yeah and so part of your law is a
sort of legal aid provides people who have no
means to pay for a lawyer with immigration law
service, criminal law service, or family law
services. And one subset of legal aid services
is the community legal clinic program that provides
poverty law services. So you can think of housing
law. income maintenance law, employment law,
areas of law that ensure that people have a roof
over their head or food on the table. And so
poverty law serves what community legal clinics
do. And there are approximately 70 community
legal clinics across the province to serve low
-income Ontarians. So you were at Mississauga
Community Legal Services. You then moved to the
Advocacy Center for Tenants Ontario. Tell us
a little bit about what you currently do at the
ACTO. Well, my role as director is really leading
the legal work and the advocacy work of the team.
It's a team of professionals and the goal is
to advance tenants' rights. And that could be
one day through litigation appearing before the
Supreme Court, which we've done twice over the
last four years. It could mean delegating at
the municipal level for introducing anti -rent
eviction bylaws. It could mean being invited
by elected officials to comment on bills that
impact tenants. it could also mean going out
into the community for example today we're out
and we've been invited by a non -profit to speak
to their group about tenants rights uh it could
be about organizing tenants to form a tenant
association so those are several areas in which
acto uh work towards advancing tenants rights
and we're a provincial legal clinic which means
that we're aware of what's happening over in
thunder bay and understanding that uh what tens
experience in thunder bay is different than what
they're experiencing in ottawa or niagara falls
so we have a provincial view of tenants rights
we also have three distinct and great programs
that we currently run one is called the low income
energy network and you'll see the impact of that
in your energy bills where there are programs
that are available for people who fall behind
in their bill payments and their programs that
help support them to make sure that their gas
isn't cut off during the winter months or the
Tenant Duty Council program that provides self
-represented tenants who appear at the Landlord
Tenant Board with legal advice, or the Your Way
Forward program, which is a new program we have
that supports survivors of intimate partner violence
with their housing needs. That's what ACTO, the
Advocacy Center for Tenants, Ontario does. But
there are also smaller clinics like the one I
used to work at in Mississauga. that provides
poverty loss services but for a specific catchment
area so that being the city of mississauga residents
so really it's a vast network the clinic system
in ontario ontario should be very proud of our
clinic system and that it's there to help people
Amazing. You mentioned the landlord and tenant
board, and I have some more questions for you
later on during the episode. But I also want
to point out that ACTO has some great resources
on their website, and we'll post the website
link in the description down below. I also want
to point out one of the reports that you published
in 2023. It was titled Housing Hardship. And
when I read through this report, there are a
couple of findings that really astonished me.
And I just want to read some of those out for
the audience. So one of the findings in the report
is that 31 .4 % of Ontarians rent their homes.
Now, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation,
or CMHC for short, defines affordable housing
as one that does not exceed 30 % of one's gross
income. However, one out of four renters pay
unaffordable rents. So, Douglas, when you see
these numbers, how did we get to this situation
where monthly rent seems to get more and more
expensive? Yeah, it's really a policy failure
that has gone back over 30 years ago. Since World
War II, when our veterans were coming back home
from the war. Canada made a conscious effort
to ensure that there's housing available for
everybody and embarked on a very ambitious program
to ensure that there's affordable housing. And
so many of the high rises you see in Toronto
and elsewhere, those multi -residential buildings
were built in the 60s and 70s as part of that
growth. And in the 90s, unfortunately, the federal
government took a step back and... and decided
not to get involved in housing. They then delegated
and downloaded that responsibility to the provinces.
In Ontario's case, downloaded the responsibility
for affordable housing to municipalities. And
so as a result, many or almost all of the housing
that's been built over the last three years has
been through the markets, the private market,
which is great. to build markets for luxury housing
but has proven unable to provide truly affordable
housing because governments have stepped away
from filling that gap and so that's why we're
in this crisis to begin with in fact ontario
is the only province in the country that has
downloaded that responsibility of affordable
housing to municipalities and they don't have
the funds in order to provide truly affordable
housing to people who need it yeah i had no idea
that this was a municipal issue i always thought
that might have been a provincial one but yeah
no no no certainly and certainly it is a provincial
issue uh they just downloaded some of the responsibilities
to the municipal level but at the end of the
day housing is a provincial responsibility when
it comes to shelters transitional housing affordable
housing in the private market it's really the
responsibility uh you know you know in this day
and age it's still the province's responsibility
so during the course of that downloading process
provinces have also weakened rent control to
try and spur the the the private market to build
multi -residential buildings and what we found
is that the of all the buildings that have been
created less than 10 percent have been purpose
-built rental units because builders are just
more interested in building condos they build
the building and then they take their profit
immediately upon the purchase of those condos
it's much more attractive model for investors
and so we have a glut of condos in the market
And a lot of small investors who want to ensure
that whatever rent is being charged will cover
their mortgage and condo fees, which is higher
than what, let's just say, a long -term investor
who is running a purpose -built rental would
want. And so that's why we're seeing a lot, we're
seeing unaffordable rents. Also, when you're
talking about unaffordable rents, we can't step
away from a conversation about not enough income.
People's income has not risen to the same rate
as rents in Ontario. And certainly that's true
for the people on social assistance. Actually,
in Toronto, I saw a couple months ago a closet
being rented out for $750 a month. And that's
only $30 or $40 less than what an adult would
be receiving on social assistance. Wow. I've
seen over the last couple of years landlords
renting half of a mattress. and saying we prefer
females to apply for this type of mattress. So
it's quite astonishing. just the crisis that
we're in. And not to mention, of course, there's
the homelessness crisis as well that's connected
to the affordable housing crisis. Because when
you can't afford a place to live in your own
community, oftentimes we find people who've been
evicted from their local community ending up
living in the park nearby while sending their
kids to school. So it's quite a... It's a complex
crisis, but one that with political will and
the right policies, we believe can be solved.
You mentioned unaffordability, which appears
to be a very big issue. In the report that I
mentioned earlier, there's also a mention of
a 2022 report by Statistics Canada. And I just
want to list some of the numbers. So 58 % of
Canadians between 15 to 24 years old reported
being very concerned about their ability to afford
rent. The number for Canadians between 25 and
34 years of age is similar at around 56%. And
this issue is not just isolated for young Canadians,
as 74 % of Black Canadians reported being concerned
about rent and 65 % of South Asians. So when
you see these numbers, what is your reaction
when you take a look and you see this type of
gap that exists? It tells me that the rental
housing crisis is not being felt equally. Folks
who are marginalized, whether that be based on
their ethnicity, race, age, gender, sexuality,
income, or religion, they experience greater
barriers to accessing safe and secure affordable
housing. And it's really unjust what we're seeing
at the moment. And it's also frustrating because
many people can't save enough. purchase a home,
that people who are expected, who reach those
milestones, whether it be graduating university,
getting married, having children, those milestones,
you expect them to move on along the housing
continuum. They're stuck where they are because
there's just simply not enough affordable housing
for them to take that next step. You hear people
mention the term affordable housing. What does
affordable housing actually mean? Is there a
specific definition for that? So the definition
that we recognize is 30 % of your household income
should be no more than 30 % of your household
income should be dedicated to shelter. Right.
But what we've been seeing, actually, people
are living paycheck to paycheck. They're on the
margins and they're just an above guideline rent
increase away or, you know, a legal rent increase
away from being evicted. So not only is rent
a big issue, but there are many other issues
that tenants might face when they're renting
a home. In your experience at ACTO, what are
some of the biggest concerns that you hear from
renters? Well, we've seen the dramatic rise over
the last three years of bad faith evictions.
And what that means is that in the current legislative
scheme, there are tenant protections. from arbitrary
evictions there should be a reason in order to
be evicted but there are methods of evictions
that don't require the tenant to act badly or
against the law and those are when a landlord
requires a unit for themselves or when they need
a vacant unit for renovations purposes we so
we've seen many investors use those two methods
to try and obtain a vacant unit to drive up the
rent of that unit so we call them bad faith evictions
so we've seen uh probably uh three it'd grow
by 300 or the last four years of those types
of evictions um we've seen many people falling
behind on their rent because their income hasn't
been able to catch up to the rate in which rent
has increased Over the last five years, rent
has gone up by about 17%. And very few people
have experienced a similar wage increase during
that same period of time to meet that rent increase.
And we've also seen a growing homelessness crisis
where people on social assistance, the number
of people who are homeless and on social assistance
have doubled from 2022 to 2024. And that's a
result of just people simply not being able to
find housing that is affordable to them and are
left to sleeping in their cars or elsewhere.
So what kind of legal frameworks might exist
to help protect tenants? And how can that help
regulate what landlords can or cannot do? Well,
the overarching legislation that protects tenants
is called the Residential Tenancies Act. It's
quite a complex piece of legislation that determines
when tenants can be evicted, what rights they
have, what obligations landlords have to maintain
a property. It speaks to security of tenure.
There's also the Human Rights Code that ensures
that people aren't discriminated against when
they're... of looking for an apartment and when
decisions are made if you are tenants who's living
in social housing there's a housing services
act that determines how rent goes up so there
are major pieces of overarching legislation that
do regulate tenancies and protect tenants But
at the end of the day, it's really a complaint
-stricken process. It's up to the tenant to complain
about their rights being infringed. And that's
really the challenge, because we're talking about
people who are already marginalized, whose English
or French might not be their first language.
So they're unable to understand their rights
or communicate or assert their rights. And so
that is the problem of a complaint -stricken
process. But that's what we have in Ontario.
And when complaints are made, they're made to
the landlord and tenant board, correct? We mentioned
that earlier on in one of your responses. So
what exactly is the landlord and tenant board
and what can they help with? That's a tribunal
that hears disputes between landlords and tenants,
where landlords and tenants have infringed or
breached their obligations under the Residential
Tenancies Act. It's a tribunal that's the busiest
tribunal in Ontario, typically hearing approximately
80 ,000 applications for hearings every year.
And they... are supposed to meet out their disputes
in a fair and summary way. However, I believe
probably your next question is how are they performing?
Yes. And I can definitely tell you that over
the last five years has demonstrated a marked
decline in their ability to perform that function.
In 2020, we saw how all tribunals and courts
moved to a virtual format because of the pandemic.
But many of them have returned to in -person
hearings or hybrid hearings, but not so the Landlord
Tenant Board. And so what's been happening, and
because of that change and emphasis on their
digital hearings, we've seen the board become
slow in terms of scheduling hearings, in terms
of issuing decisions. And as a result, last year,
the Ombudsman of Ontario said that tenants had
to wait up to two years. to have their matters
heard, whereas landlords only wait six to nine
months. And the primary reason for that delay,
as I mentioned, is because they move to in -person
hearings and Zoom formats. So in our conversation
today, we're talking to each other through Zoom.
And Herman, you're kind enough not to talk over
me because we want to have a conversation. We
have that common goal of learning from each other.
But at the Landlord Tenant Board, Two parties
are adversarial. They waited months. to have
their issues addressed right and they're not
going to be that way and so the ombudsman acknowledged
that these hearings were chaotic and so you add
that to the busiest system in the busiest tribunal
in the province and you're going to have slower
processing times so if i wanted to give you an
example think of mcdonald's for example and they
have different methods of access that's drive
-through that's app that's in person on the counter
so different methods of getting what you want
so that's what the landlord tenant board had
they had different methods of adjudication you
can mediate matters you can go there in person
but they went to digital so imagine McDonald's
doing the same thing they force everyone going
to go through the drive -through you can imagine
that drive -through lineup and and they would
only allow other alternatives if one were to
say I don't drive because I can't access your
drive -through and so that is the type of backlog
that's been created the landlord tenant board
because it's the busiest tribunal because it's
an adversarial system it can't do as good a job
as it was in person because in person you don't
need a zoom moderator to put people in breakout
rooms people just have conversations on the side
you can have multiple conversations to try and
resolve matters and unfortunately their ability
to resolve matters outside of the adjudication
process has gone down from 40 to now six percent
and that's why and that's primarily because of
the format they've chosen and i presume so many
of these people who go to the landlord and tenant
board are self -represented parties what kind
of tools are available for self -represented
people to access in order to understand how this
entire process works? There are online tools
that the Landlord Tenant Board offers. There
are online self -guided pathways that the community
legal clinic system has. There's also the legal
clinics themselves and Tenant Duty Council. So
if anyone had received any documents from the
Landlord Tenant Board or had questions about
their rights, I would highly encourage them to
not wait for the day of their hearing, but to
reach out to their community legal clinic. But
if they hadn't reached out to their community
legal clinic, then there's Tenant Duty Council
that's available on the day of their hearing
for people who had questions, for people who
needed advocacy on their dispute. And so Tenant
Duty Council is a program that the Advocacy Center
for Tenants Ontario runs across the province.
And so that's a program that's there to assist.
And ACTA also offers a tenant duty council program
fund, correct? That's right. So if I was an aggrieved
tenant, what is the number one step that I should
do first in order to find some sort of solution?
I would Google Legal Aid Ontario and find out
where your local clinic is. So we have community
-led clinics across the province. So whether
you live in Bracebridge, Rainy River, in... Thorold,
Ontario, in Ottawa, you name it, there is a community
legal clinic that can serve you. Even five minutes
or 10 minutes of advice is better than searching
online, trying to find the answers because really
when it comes to... residential tenancy law,
you won't find a better expert than the people
who are working at the local community legal
clinic. So that's really the first place that
I would go to. Amazing. And you mentioned online
solutions. And part of me was a little curious,
and I decided to go online and see what some
people are saying about the rental situation.
So if you go on the Toronto subreddits, there's
some very interesting comments. And you know,
people try to help each other out. You have people
calling the situation here in Ontario flat out
unaffordable. You have people living with multiple
roommates. And you have people saying that the
best they can do is move to the suburbs. So out
of curiosity, how does Toronto, or to a larger
extent, Ontario, how does that rental situation
differ from other major cities or areas in the
world? Well, Ontario is the most unaffordable
province for renters in Canada, followed by BC.
that's in part because we have the highest tenant
population here and so when you look at stats
can data of the 20 most unaffordable municipalities
in canada 12 are in ontario and the problems
are very similar across all the provinces and
territories There's an affordable housing crisis,
certainly, but Ontario experiences the brunt
of it because of its sheer population. There's
approximately 1 .7 million renter households
in Ontario. And although we have, there are tenant
rights legislation in place, but it's still a
complaints driven process. And we still have
large rent control loopholes in Ontario that
needs to be closed. When we're talking about
affordable rents, we need to get. rents under
control in order for people to be able to afford
to live in the places that they grew up near
their workplaces and for them to feel that they
have a place that's safe and secure to live in.
Absolutely. So speaking about your own personal
experience, have you had any personal experience
with renting, for example, in Ontario or in Toronto?
I have. Actually, very recently, last year, in
fact, I rented a townhouse because my home had
to go under some renovations. um and so it was
quite a pleasant experience uh you know and by
far i have to say you know i would say eighty
percent of landlord tenant relations are pleasant
are um you know are situations where it never
reaches the media or the landlord tenant board
um it's really much like all the other stories
you hear uh we're talking about the worst 20
or 10 of those stories so as a tenant you know
i certainly uh experience of for that brief period
of time what a 10 is like but i know that my
experience is nowhere near i would say the atypical
10 experience Yeah, as a current renter myself,
I'm I think I'm very blessed and privileged to
have a good landlord tenant relationship. And
I know that's not the case for a lot of people.
And, you know, I do see those stories that you
mentioned earlier about, you know, people renting
out mattresses or closets. And you see these
and it's very egregious. But I was wondering,
is there any type of change that's coming or
that you know about that gives you hope for the
future? Yeah, I have a lot of hope. I want to
tell you, there's this new advocacy group called
Fair Rent Ontario that's come together to win
comprehensive rent control in the province. And
so the goal is to reinstate rent control. That
means that it will be an end to vacancy decontrol,
which is the method, as I said before, where
if you have a vacant unit, a landlord can charge
to their heart's desire the rent for the next
tenant. and so we want to close that loophole
where even if a unit becomes vacant that rent
is moderated we want to make sure through fair
rent ontario that there's no longer a 2018 exemption
which means that any building that's first occupied
after 2018 is not rent controlled so that's why
we're seeing situations where people are enticed
to live to move and live in a building for one
year only to find themselves with a double -digit
rent increase the following year and so fair
rent ontario is a advocacy organization that's
come together and we'll be advocating to close
those loopholes you know housing is a human rights
uh we firmly believe that ad acto and the government
of Ontario and all parties that want to form
government need to ensure that everyone has access
to safe and affordable housing. That means applying
and adopting some of these policies that we're
advocating for, which is closing those loopholes.
and we want to also end above guideline rent
increases and those are situations in which you
see those purpose -built build purpose -built
rental buildings where landlords are making cosmetic
changes replacing the balcony and then are trying
to download the cost of those replacements to
the tenants and thereby increasing their rent
by double digits we want to end that because
at the end of the day it's the landlord's obligation
to maintain their buildings i've also encouraged
when i see cities like hamilton toronto and london
and other municipalities who are tackling the
housing crisis head -on they're introducing things
like anti -renovation bylaws to ensure that their
affordable units stay affordable in their in
their community i'm encouraged by the association
of municipalities of ontario they're responding
to the encampment crisis because by identifying
in that in ontario we have 80 000 people living
homeless That's the population of Peterborough.
So the Association of Municipalities of Ontario
are really calling for increased investments
to solve the homelessness crisis. It's unfortunate
that we have a political party that wants to
trample on child rights as its solution. When
really when we're talking about housing it's
the provincial responsibility and unfortunately
the province's failure to address housing which
has led to this crisis. So I'm encouraged to
see that municipalities are stepping up and trying
to do what the province should be doing more
of which is really investing in housing. Also,
you know, through our work, there are many ways
that we think that all levels of government can
be involved to try and solve the housing crisis.
You know, I have a laundry list here with me.
And if you're OK, listen to it. Sure. Yeah. So,
first of all, all levels of government can be
involved in. creation of affordable housing.
And so I mentioned municipalities, gave you some
examples. The federal government has created
a national housing strategy in 2018, and they
dedicated billions of dollars towards it. But
those billions of dollars were in the form of
loans for below market housing. And that's not
enough because we don't need below market housing,
which is 10 to 20 % of what average market rent
is, we need deeply affordable housing that meets
the definition of CMHC. And so more dedicated
funds for truly affordable housing is what the
federal government can do. The federal government
can, through their tax mechanisms, ensure that
real estate investment trusts aren't exacerbating
the housing crisis. The provinces can close,
as I said, rent control loopholes. They can also
do things such as make sure that there's stronger
controls for short -term rentals. We saw when
the pandemic came about in 2020, how when the
province stopped all short -term rental operators
from operating, the flood of long -term rental
units came online. If we have stronger, shorter
term rental controls, we can bring more of that
supply for Ontarians who need housing. We need
the landlord tenant board to be fixed. When the
sheriff is not operating well, then we have a
wild west and that's impacting the housing crisis.
Also, municipalities can allocate more funding
for shelters and transitional housing to support
people living homeless. and people who are living
precariously housed. Those are some of the things
that I think municipalities and provinces and
the federal government can do. But there's lots
of tools. And so just going back to what you
asked me, do I have hope? I have tremendous hope
that we have the tools. They've been tested out
in different jurisdictions. We just need the
political will to get it done. Thank you so much
for going through that list. And what's so interesting
is because, you know, you see people who go out
and demonstrate, you know, they protest. And
it's really inspiring to see people, you know,
tenants who are aggrieved, they're not taking
this sitting down, they want to make change.
And a lot of those changes are some of the items
that you've mentioned as well. I'm sure that
that must also be inspiring to the work that
you do to see people stand up for themselves
and ask for, you know, affordable housing and
housing that is not something that has to be
an ongoing concern. My last question for you
before we end things off here is what has been
your favorite moment so far working at Acto?
And why does that keep you going? I have lots
of great moments. You know, it's difficult to
identify just one. You know, I think when you
asked me that question, I think of our senior.
litigation lawyer, winning big at the Ontario
Court of Appeal. I think of our community organizer
who is able to connect a handful of tenants and
inspire them to form a tenant association who
are now part of the Fair Rent Ontario campaign.
So there's a lot of great moments. We issue the
reports. for the public. And it's great to have
OGEN be interested in the work that we do and
have decision makers and the public really get
with the help of our reports, get a better understanding
of the crisis that we're currently in. So at
ACTO, we want to make sure that we talk to everybody,
you know, whether it's, you know, sure, we talk
to tenants, we speak with nonprofits, but we
also speak with landlords and we also speak with
local parties of all types because housing is
not a partisan issue. It impacts everybody and
we can all be part of the solution. And so the
part of the job I say that keeps me going is
these opportunities to reach out to groups such
as yourself and your listeners through your podcast
and really drive home the message that through
knowledge and collective action, we can make
a difference together. Amazing. And what a great
way to end this episode. Douglas, I want to thank
you for your time, for being here today. I think
everybody learned a lot about the rental situation
here in Ontario. Before we end things off, where
can the people find you? Are you on social media?
I'm currently on X and temporarily, I don't know.
Temporarily, okay. So you can find me at Doug
Kwan Acto. Amazing. Well, Douglas, thank you
again. And that concludes this episode. Thank
you very much. Thank you for tapping into this
episode of Law Syrup. On the next episode, I
talk to a panel of teachers who all teach law
in high school. I ask them what inspires them
and what are some of the best responses they've
received from students. Law Syrup is produced
by me, Herman Wong, and the Ontario Justice Education
Network. For more information and for accompanying
resources, check out ojen .ca and our show notes.
See you next time.