WEBVTT 00:00:01.299 --> 00:00:03.540 Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk 00:00:03.540 --> 00:00:05.679 with special guests about hot topics in Canadian 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:08.359 law. This podcast is a co -production with the 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:10.759 Ontario Justice Education Network, also known 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:14.199 as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman Wong. Let's tap 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:22.359 it. Before we begin, please know that this show 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:24.960 is not intended to be legal advice or a replacement 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:29.519 for a legal representative. Hey, everyone. Welcome 00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:32.520 back to Law Syrup. On today's episode, our guest 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:35.200 is Douglas Kwan, the Director of Advocacy and 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.000 Legal Services for the Advocacy Center for Tenants 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:41.520 Ontario, or ACTO for short. As a renter myself, 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:43.899 currently living in Toronto, and also most of 00:00:43.899 --> 00:00:46.320 my friends, I've always been curious to know 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:48.100 more about tenants' rights and what resources 00:00:48.100 --> 00:00:51.020 are available if a tenant needs help. I actually 00:00:51.020 --> 00:00:53.880 saw Douglas on my TV one day, and I immediately 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:56.240 thought, hey, he'd be a really good guest for 00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:59.159 the show. So you can imagine my happiness when 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:01.259 he said yes when I asked. So without further 00:01:01.259 --> 00:01:04.280 ado, here is my conversation with Douglas Kwan. 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:07.640 So Douglas, welcome to the show. How are you? 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:10.079 I'm doing well, Herman. Thank you for inviting 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:12.599 me. You know, it's great because the reason why 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:14.700 I thought of you is I must have been watching 00:01:14.700 --> 00:01:17.859 either CP24 or The National. And I remember seeing 00:01:17.859 --> 00:01:20.900 you on my TV and I was like, this guy is so interesting. 00:01:21.260 --> 00:01:23.540 And we haven't done an episode on tenants' rights. 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:25.079 And I thought, you know, as a tenant myself. 00:01:25.769 --> 00:01:27.870 I would be very interested to hear what you have 00:01:27.870 --> 00:01:29.689 to say, especially with the state of the rental 00:01:29.689 --> 00:01:33.250 market here in Ontario. But before we get started, 00:01:33.450 --> 00:01:36.209 there was a very interesting article on precedent 00:01:36.209 --> 00:01:40.269 about yourself and the housing crisis. And the 00:01:40.269 --> 00:01:42.890 initial few paragraphs talked about how musicians 00:01:42.890 --> 00:01:46.069 actually influenced your desire to make change. 00:01:46.310 --> 00:01:47.909 I was wondering if you can talk a little bit 00:01:47.909 --> 00:01:49.650 more about that because I found it very interesting. 00:01:50.230 --> 00:01:54.409 Sure. I'm happy to talk about it. So as I recall, 00:01:54.689 --> 00:01:57.049 when I was first interviewed at the Press and 00:01:57.049 --> 00:01:58.870 Article, they wanted a little history about my 00:01:58.870 --> 00:02:00.549 background and why I was interested in social 00:02:00.549 --> 00:02:05.310 justice. And so it really harkened back to when 00:02:05.310 --> 00:02:10.090 I was a young boy back in the early 80s. What 00:02:10.090 --> 00:02:12.789 was happening was in Ethiopia, I was experiencing 00:02:12.789 --> 00:02:17.090 a once -in -a -generation famine. And a group 00:02:17.090 --> 00:02:19.550 of musicians that I recognized at the time got 00:02:19.550 --> 00:02:24.569 together and fundraised to support people that 00:02:24.569 --> 00:02:27.189 are they don't know that are thousands of miles 00:02:27.189 --> 00:02:31.110 away and that collective action spurred more 00:02:31.110 --> 00:02:33.629 collective action in the united states and canada 00:02:33.629 --> 00:02:38.870 and became a massive massive event where it brought 00:02:38.870 --> 00:02:42.449 more knowledge across the globe about the plate 00:02:43.020 --> 00:02:47.620 of people suffering in Ethiopia and really demonstrate 00:02:47.620 --> 00:02:51.919 to me the power of collective action that where 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:56.539 if you know no task is too big when we can work 00:02:56.539 --> 00:02:59.099 collectively to try and tackle that task and 00:02:59.099 --> 00:03:04.039 problem and so it also taught me and redefined 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:06.199 community for me. Community can be defined as 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:08.960 your household, but it could also include the 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:12.219 entire planet. And so it really demonstrated 00:03:12.219 --> 00:03:16.680 how we were all interconnected, that we can solve 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:19.520 big problems together. Who was singing? Do you 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:22.979 remember? Oh, my gosh, it was. So was there Bruce 00:03:22.979 --> 00:03:25.300 Springsteen at that concert? Well, yeah, there's 00:03:25.300 --> 00:03:27.740 a whole bunch of 80 stars. And, you know, you 00:03:27.740 --> 00:03:31.990 hear it every Christmas. Gosh, I'm trying to 00:03:31.990 --> 00:03:35.530 think. Do they know it's Christmas? Yeah, that 00:03:35.530 --> 00:03:36.830 one, that one. Yeah, do they know it's Christmas? 00:03:37.189 --> 00:03:39.830 That's the UK version. The Canadian version is 00:03:39.830 --> 00:03:42.389 called Tears Are Not Enough. And the US version 00:03:42.389 --> 00:03:45.129 is called We Are The World. And they were collectively 00:03:45.129 --> 00:03:48.490 called Live Aid. And they had concerts at Bradley 00:03:48.490 --> 00:03:50.689 Stadium and everywhere else. And Madonna was 00:03:50.689 --> 00:03:54.250 part of it. U2 was part of it. And so that was 00:03:54.250 --> 00:03:59.650 really the age of just, you know, just... where 00:03:59.650 --> 00:04:02.349 musicians were more than just the music, and 00:04:02.349 --> 00:04:04.449 they really believed that they could make a difference. 00:04:04.810 --> 00:04:07.930 I know that you've worked previously at the Mississauga 00:04:07.930 --> 00:04:10.569 Community Legal Services, but what led you to 00:04:10.569 --> 00:04:13.069 work in poverty law and legal aid work generally? 00:04:13.650 --> 00:04:17.410 It didn't come easily at first, and certainly 00:04:17.410 --> 00:04:20.329 when I went to law school, it wasn't top of mind. 00:04:20.889 --> 00:04:23.790 As most people think of law school or think of 00:04:23.790 --> 00:04:26.230 a career in law, they usually think of what they 00:04:26.230 --> 00:04:28.110 see on television, like criminal law, corporate 00:04:28.110 --> 00:04:31.949 law. And when I went to law school, I had my 00:04:31.949 --> 00:04:33.810 eyes set on, you know, one of those traditional 00:04:33.810 --> 00:04:36.949 areas of law. And then I started at the Student 00:04:36.949 --> 00:04:38.889 Legal Aid Clinic. And that's when I discovered 00:04:38.889 --> 00:04:43.850 how impactful my skill set could be to individuals' 00:04:44.009 --> 00:04:45.949 lives. And that's when I first introduced to 00:04:45.949 --> 00:04:49.050 legal aid and poverty law. And for the listeners 00:04:49.050 --> 00:04:51.589 who don't know, what exactly is legal aid? And 00:04:51.589 --> 00:04:53.829 why is it important to the legal framework of 00:04:53.829 --> 00:05:00.430 our province? that's born out of a concept that 00:05:00.430 --> 00:05:03.889 poor people, low -income Canadians, disproportionately 00:05:03.889 --> 00:05:07.310 suffer more when they're faced with legal challenges. 00:05:07.970 --> 00:05:12.050 So if you think of, say, a person being fined 00:05:12.050 --> 00:05:15.110 for trespassing because they're living on a park, 00:05:15.250 --> 00:05:20.769 they have a tent in a park, they're fined $50, 00:05:20.810 --> 00:05:23.189 let's just say. So people of other incomes, they 00:05:23.189 --> 00:05:25.209 can just pay the fine and then that... they could 00:05:25.209 --> 00:05:27.829 just move on, but not so people living in the 00:05:27.829 --> 00:05:29.889 margins, people living with poverty. And so that 00:05:29.889 --> 00:05:33.430 fine could be unpaid. Then that could impact 00:05:33.430 --> 00:05:35.970 their ability to find housing, to find employment. 00:05:36.629 --> 00:05:39.250 And worse still, that could lead to possible 00:05:39.250 --> 00:05:43.480 incarceration. and so um it's important that 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.319 people who can't afford a lawyer have access 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.519 to to legal services and understanding their 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:53.699 legal rights to avoid those uh disastrous consequences 00:05:53.699 --> 00:05:58.100 right that might result in uh very i guess i 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:01.879 would describe as you know subtle uh or minor 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:05.480 infractions yeah and so part of your law is a 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:08.829 sort of legal aid provides people who have no 00:06:08.829 --> 00:06:12.189 means to pay for a lawyer with immigration law 00:06:12.189 --> 00:06:14.470 service, criminal law service, or family law 00:06:14.470 --> 00:06:18.769 services. And one subset of legal aid services 00:06:18.769 --> 00:06:22.329 is the community legal clinic program that provides 00:06:22.329 --> 00:06:24.889 poverty law services. So you can think of housing 00:06:24.889 --> 00:06:27.860 law. income maintenance law, employment law, 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:31.060 areas of law that ensure that people have a roof 00:06:31.060 --> 00:06:33.779 over their head or food on the table. And so 00:06:33.779 --> 00:06:36.459 poverty law serves what community legal clinics 00:06:36.459 --> 00:06:40.019 do. And there are approximately 70 community 00:06:40.019 --> 00:06:43.060 legal clinics across the province to serve low 00:06:43.060 --> 00:06:46.019 -income Ontarians. So you were at Mississauga 00:06:46.019 --> 00:06:48.740 Community Legal Services. You then moved to the 00:06:48.740 --> 00:06:51.740 Advocacy Center for Tenants Ontario. Tell us 00:06:51.740 --> 00:06:53.959 a little bit about what you currently do at the 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:57.579 ACTO. Well, my role as director is really leading 00:06:57.579 --> 00:07:00.199 the legal work and the advocacy work of the team. 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.699 It's a team of professionals and the goal is 00:07:03.699 --> 00:07:06.779 to advance tenants' rights. And that could be 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:09.300 one day through litigation appearing before the 00:07:09.300 --> 00:07:11.540 Supreme Court, which we've done twice over the 00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:15.019 last four years. It could mean delegating at 00:07:15.019 --> 00:07:17.639 the municipal level for introducing anti -rent 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:20.160 eviction bylaws. It could mean being invited 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:22.259 by elected officials to comment on bills that 00:07:22.259 --> 00:07:25.699 impact tenants. it could also mean going out 00:07:25.699 --> 00:07:28.000 into the community for example today we're out 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:30.660 and we've been invited by a non -profit to speak 00:07:30.660 --> 00:07:33.839 to their group about tenants rights uh it could 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:36.060 be about organizing tenants to form a tenant 00:07:36.060 --> 00:07:39.500 association so those are several areas in which 00:07:39.500 --> 00:07:43.680 acto uh work towards advancing tenants rights 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.019 and we're a provincial legal clinic which means 00:07:46.019 --> 00:07:48.139 that we're aware of what's happening over in 00:07:48.139 --> 00:07:51.259 thunder bay and understanding that uh what tens 00:07:51.259 --> 00:07:52.839 experience in thunder bay is different than what 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.300 they're experiencing in ottawa or niagara falls 00:07:55.300 --> 00:07:59.759 so we have a provincial view of tenants rights 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:04.740 we also have three distinct and great programs 00:08:04.740 --> 00:08:07.540 that we currently run one is called the low income 00:08:07.540 --> 00:08:10.660 energy network and you'll see the impact of that 00:08:10.660 --> 00:08:13.579 in your energy bills where there are programs 00:08:13.579 --> 00:08:15.339 that are available for people who fall behind 00:08:15.339 --> 00:08:18.680 in their bill payments and their programs that 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:21.199 help support them to make sure that their gas 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:23.959 isn't cut off during the winter months or the 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:26.600 Tenant Duty Council program that provides self 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:28.240 -represented tenants who appear at the Landlord 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.740 Tenant Board with legal advice, or the Your Way 00:08:31.740 --> 00:08:33.720 Forward program, which is a new program we have 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:36.220 that supports survivors of intimate partner violence 00:08:36.220 --> 00:08:39.139 with their housing needs. That's what ACTO, the 00:08:39.139 --> 00:08:42.779 Advocacy Center for Tenants, Ontario does. But 00:08:42.779 --> 00:08:45.519 there are also smaller clinics like the one I 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:47.919 used to work at in Mississauga. that provides 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:50.779 poverty loss services but for a specific catchment 00:08:50.779 --> 00:08:53.700 area so that being the city of mississauga residents 00:08:53.700 --> 00:08:57.940 so really it's a vast network the clinic system 00:08:57.940 --> 00:09:01.200 in ontario ontario should be very proud of our 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.799 clinic system and that it's there to help people 00:09:04.460 --> 00:09:07.100 Amazing. You mentioned the landlord and tenant 00:09:07.100 --> 00:09:08.980 board, and I have some more questions for you 00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:11.720 later on during the episode. But I also want 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:14.059 to point out that ACTO has some great resources 00:09:14.059 --> 00:09:16.539 on their website, and we'll post the website 00:09:16.539 --> 00:09:20.080 link in the description down below. I also want 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.440 to point out one of the reports that you published 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:26.409 in 2023. It was titled Housing Hardship. And 00:09:26.409 --> 00:09:28.090 when I read through this report, there are a 00:09:28.090 --> 00:09:30.190 couple of findings that really astonished me. 00:09:30.269 --> 00:09:32.190 And I just want to read some of those out for 00:09:32.190 --> 00:09:34.870 the audience. So one of the findings in the report 00:09:34.870 --> 00:09:38.730 is that 31 .4 % of Ontarians rent their homes. 00:09:39.149 --> 00:09:42.149 Now, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, 00:09:42.490 --> 00:09:46.029 or CMHC for short, defines affordable housing 00:09:46.029 --> 00:09:50.090 as one that does not exceed 30 % of one's gross 00:09:50.090 --> 00:09:54.149 income. However, one out of four renters pay 00:09:54.149 --> 00:09:57.029 unaffordable rents. So, Douglas, when you see 00:09:57.029 --> 00:09:59.409 these numbers, how did we get to this situation 00:09:59.409 --> 00:10:02.789 where monthly rent seems to get more and more 00:10:02.789 --> 00:10:06.529 expensive? Yeah, it's really a policy failure 00:10:06.529 --> 00:10:10.649 that has gone back over 30 years ago. Since World 00:10:10.649 --> 00:10:12.970 War II, when our veterans were coming back home 00:10:12.970 --> 00:10:16.460 from the war. Canada made a conscious effort 00:10:16.460 --> 00:10:18.460 to ensure that there's housing available for 00:10:18.460 --> 00:10:21.600 everybody and embarked on a very ambitious program 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:24.460 to ensure that there's affordable housing. And 00:10:24.460 --> 00:10:27.399 so many of the high rises you see in Toronto 00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:30.779 and elsewhere, those multi -residential buildings 00:10:30.779 --> 00:10:33.659 were built in the 60s and 70s as part of that 00:10:33.659 --> 00:10:37.220 growth. And in the 90s, unfortunately, the federal 00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:41.120 government took a step back and... and decided 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:44.460 not to get involved in housing. They then delegated 00:10:44.460 --> 00:10:47.240 and downloaded that responsibility to the provinces. 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:51.159 In Ontario's case, downloaded the responsibility 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:54.620 for affordable housing to municipalities. And 00:10:54.620 --> 00:10:58.679 so as a result, many or almost all of the housing 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:00.539 that's been built over the last three years has 00:11:00.539 --> 00:11:03.620 been through the markets, the private market, 00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:09.710 which is great. to build markets for luxury housing 00:11:09.710 --> 00:11:13.649 but has proven unable to provide truly affordable 00:11:13.649 --> 00:11:16.590 housing because governments have stepped away 00:11:16.590 --> 00:11:18.970 from filling that gap and so that's why we're 00:11:18.970 --> 00:11:21.509 in this crisis to begin with in fact ontario 00:11:21.509 --> 00:11:25.350 is the only province in the country that has 00:11:25.350 --> 00:11:27.490 downloaded that responsibility of affordable 00:11:27.490 --> 00:11:30.029 housing to municipalities and they don't have 00:11:30.029 --> 00:11:32.970 the funds in order to provide truly affordable 00:11:32.970 --> 00:11:35.769 housing to people who need it yeah i had no idea 00:11:35.769 --> 00:11:39.049 that this was a municipal issue i always thought 00:11:39.049 --> 00:11:41.049 that might have been a provincial one but yeah 00:11:41.049 --> 00:11:44.330 no no no certainly and certainly it is a provincial 00:11:44.330 --> 00:11:47.529 issue uh they just downloaded some of the responsibilities 00:11:47.529 --> 00:11:50.029 to the municipal level but at the end of the 00:11:50.029 --> 00:11:53.139 day housing is a provincial responsibility when 00:11:53.139 --> 00:11:55.860 it comes to shelters transitional housing affordable 00:11:55.860 --> 00:11:58.340 housing in the private market it's really the 00:11:58.340 --> 00:12:01.879 responsibility uh you know you know in this day 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:03.940 and age it's still the province's responsibility 00:12:03.940 --> 00:12:07.440 so during the course of that downloading process 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.820 provinces have also weakened rent control to 00:12:11.820 --> 00:12:15.539 try and spur the the the private market to build 00:12:15.539 --> 00:12:18.299 multi -residential buildings and what we found 00:12:18.299 --> 00:12:20.679 is that the of all the buildings that have been 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.139 created less than 10 percent have been purpose 00:12:24.139 --> 00:12:28.259 -built rental units because builders are just 00:12:28.259 --> 00:12:30.960 more interested in building condos they build 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:32.779 the building and then they take their profit 00:12:32.779 --> 00:12:35.220 immediately upon the purchase of those condos 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:37.340 it's much more attractive model for investors 00:12:37.340 --> 00:12:41.320 and so we have a glut of condos in the market 00:12:41.899 --> 00:12:44.759 And a lot of small investors who want to ensure 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:47.320 that whatever rent is being charged will cover 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:49.519 their mortgage and condo fees, which is higher 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.220 than what, let's just say, a long -term investor 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:55.299 who is running a purpose -built rental would 00:12:55.299 --> 00:12:58.480 want. And so that's why we're seeing a lot, we're 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.179 seeing unaffordable rents. Also, when you're 00:13:01.179 --> 00:13:03.720 talking about unaffordable rents, we can't step 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.480 away from a conversation about not enough income. 00:13:07.289 --> 00:13:09.929 People's income has not risen to the same rate 00:13:09.929 --> 00:13:14.029 as rents in Ontario. And certainly that's true 00:13:14.029 --> 00:13:16.889 for the people on social assistance. Actually, 00:13:16.950 --> 00:13:20.789 in Toronto, I saw a couple months ago a closet 00:13:20.789 --> 00:13:25.409 being rented out for $750 a month. And that's 00:13:25.409 --> 00:13:28.450 only $30 or $40 less than what an adult would 00:13:28.450 --> 00:13:31.570 be receiving on social assistance. Wow. I've 00:13:31.570 --> 00:13:34.649 seen over the last couple of years landlords 00:13:34.649 --> 00:13:38.129 renting half of a mattress. and saying we prefer 00:13:38.129 --> 00:13:42.789 females to apply for this type of mattress. So 00:13:42.789 --> 00:13:48.440 it's quite astonishing. just the crisis that 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.720 we're in. And not to mention, of course, there's 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.860 the homelessness crisis as well that's connected 00:13:54.860 --> 00:13:57.500 to the affordable housing crisis. Because when 00:13:57.500 --> 00:13:59.860 you can't afford a place to live in your own 00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:03.299 community, oftentimes we find people who've been 00:14:03.299 --> 00:14:06.700 evicted from their local community ending up 00:14:06.700 --> 00:14:09.600 living in the park nearby while sending their 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:15.639 kids to school. So it's quite a... It's a complex 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:19.480 crisis, but one that with political will and 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.080 the right policies, we believe can be solved. 00:14:22.460 --> 00:14:24.860 You mentioned unaffordability, which appears 00:14:24.860 --> 00:14:27.600 to be a very big issue. In the report that I 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:29.919 mentioned earlier, there's also a mention of 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.500 a 2022 report by Statistics Canada. And I just 00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:36.059 want to list some of the numbers. So 58 % of 00:14:36.059 --> 00:14:39.440 Canadians between 15 to 24 years old reported 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.379 being very concerned about their ability to afford 00:14:42.379 --> 00:14:45.830 rent. The number for Canadians between 25 and 00:14:45.830 --> 00:14:49.929 34 years of age is similar at around 56%. And 00:14:49.929 --> 00:14:52.029 this issue is not just isolated for young Canadians, 00:14:52.129 --> 00:14:55.509 as 74 % of Black Canadians reported being concerned 00:14:55.509 --> 00:14:59.470 about rent and 65 % of South Asians. So when 00:14:59.470 --> 00:15:01.230 you see these numbers, what is your reaction 00:15:01.230 --> 00:15:04.190 when you take a look and you see this type of 00:15:04.190 --> 00:15:07.889 gap that exists? It tells me that the rental 00:15:07.889 --> 00:15:11.070 housing crisis is not being felt equally. Folks 00:15:11.070 --> 00:15:14.070 who are marginalized, whether that be based on 00:15:14.070 --> 00:15:16.929 their ethnicity, race, age, gender, sexuality, 00:15:17.289 --> 00:15:19.409 income, or religion, they experience greater 00:15:19.409 --> 00:15:22.049 barriers to accessing safe and secure affordable 00:15:22.049 --> 00:15:26.230 housing. And it's really unjust what we're seeing 00:15:26.230 --> 00:15:30.950 at the moment. And it's also frustrating because 00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:34.879 many people can't save enough. purchase a home, 00:15:35.059 --> 00:15:38.220 that people who are expected, who reach those 00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:40.679 milestones, whether it be graduating university, 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:43.879 getting married, having children, those milestones, 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:47.100 you expect them to move on along the housing 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:50.539 continuum. They're stuck where they are because 00:15:50.539 --> 00:15:52.980 there's just simply not enough affordable housing 00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:56.480 for them to take that next step. You hear people 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:59.820 mention the term affordable housing. What does 00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:01.860 affordable housing actually mean? Is there a 00:16:01.860 --> 00:16:04.470 specific definition for that? So the definition 00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:08.830 that we recognize is 30 % of your household income 00:16:08.830 --> 00:16:11.710 should be no more than 30 % of your household 00:16:11.710 --> 00:16:13.870 income should be dedicated to shelter. Right. 00:16:14.490 --> 00:16:16.809 But what we've been seeing, actually, people 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:19.389 are living paycheck to paycheck. They're on the 00:16:19.389 --> 00:16:23.789 margins and they're just an above guideline rent 00:16:23.789 --> 00:16:27.090 increase away or, you know, a legal rent increase 00:16:27.090 --> 00:16:30.340 away from being evicted. So not only is rent 00:16:30.340 --> 00:16:32.279 a big issue, but there are many other issues 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.860 that tenants might face when they're renting 00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:38.379 a home. In your experience at ACTO, what are 00:16:38.379 --> 00:16:41.200 some of the biggest concerns that you hear from 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.460 renters? Well, we've seen the dramatic rise over 00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:46.820 the last three years of bad faith evictions. 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:49.700 And what that means is that in the current legislative 00:16:49.700 --> 00:16:53.529 scheme, there are tenant protections. from arbitrary 00:16:53.529 --> 00:16:56.710 evictions there should be a reason in order to 00:16:56.710 --> 00:16:59.710 be evicted but there are methods of evictions 00:16:59.710 --> 00:17:03.750 that don't require the tenant to act badly or 00:17:03.750 --> 00:17:07.349 against the law and those are when a landlord 00:17:07.349 --> 00:17:10.369 requires a unit for themselves or when they need 00:17:10.369 --> 00:17:14.470 a vacant unit for renovations purposes we so 00:17:14.470 --> 00:17:18.190 we've seen many investors use those two methods 00:17:18.190 --> 00:17:22.339 to try and obtain a vacant unit to drive up the 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:26.200 rent of that unit so we call them bad faith evictions 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:31.539 so we've seen uh probably uh three it'd grow 00:17:31.539 --> 00:17:34.640 by 300 or the last four years of those types 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.720 of evictions um we've seen many people falling 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:41.400 behind on their rent because their income hasn't 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:43.799 been able to catch up to the rate in which rent 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.019 has increased Over the last five years, rent 00:17:47.019 --> 00:17:52.819 has gone up by about 17%. And very few people 00:17:52.819 --> 00:17:55.480 have experienced a similar wage increase during 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:59.359 that same period of time to meet that rent increase. 00:17:59.779 --> 00:18:03.079 And we've also seen a growing homelessness crisis 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:08.559 where people on social assistance, the number 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:10.940 of people who are homeless and on social assistance 00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:15.430 have doubled from 2022 to 2024. And that's a 00:18:15.430 --> 00:18:18.349 result of just people simply not being able to 00:18:18.349 --> 00:18:21.690 find housing that is affordable to them and are 00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:24.329 left to sleeping in their cars or elsewhere. 00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:28.130 So what kind of legal frameworks might exist 00:18:28.130 --> 00:18:31.329 to help protect tenants? And how can that help 00:18:31.329 --> 00:18:35.339 regulate what landlords can or cannot do? Well, 00:18:35.380 --> 00:18:38.180 the overarching legislation that protects tenants 00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:40.680 is called the Residential Tenancies Act. It's 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.579 quite a complex piece of legislation that determines 00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:48.720 when tenants can be evicted, what rights they 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.240 have, what obligations landlords have to maintain 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.359 a property. It speaks to security of tenure. 00:18:54.980 --> 00:18:58.000 There's also the Human Rights Code that ensures 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.779 that people aren't discriminated against when 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:03.740 they're... of looking for an apartment and when 00:19:03.740 --> 00:19:07.980 decisions are made if you are tenants who's living 00:19:07.980 --> 00:19:09.940 in social housing there's a housing services 00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:13.079 act that determines how rent goes up so there 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:16.200 are major pieces of overarching legislation that 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:19.289 do regulate tenancies and protect tenants But 00:19:19.289 --> 00:19:21.470 at the end of the day, it's really a complaint 00:19:21.470 --> 00:19:24.450 -stricken process. It's up to the tenant to complain 00:19:24.450 --> 00:19:27.950 about their rights being infringed. And that's 00:19:27.950 --> 00:19:30.049 really the challenge, because we're talking about 00:19:30.049 --> 00:19:32.809 people who are already marginalized, whose English 00:19:32.809 --> 00:19:35.349 or French might not be their first language. 00:19:35.509 --> 00:19:38.269 So they're unable to understand their rights 00:19:38.269 --> 00:19:41.490 or communicate or assert their rights. And so 00:19:41.490 --> 00:19:43.529 that is the problem of a complaint -stricken 00:19:43.529 --> 00:19:45.309 process. But that's what we have in Ontario. 00:19:46.059 --> 00:19:48.400 And when complaints are made, they're made to 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.640 the landlord and tenant board, correct? We mentioned 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:54.180 that earlier on in one of your responses. So 00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:56.339 what exactly is the landlord and tenant board 00:19:56.339 --> 00:19:59.309 and what can they help with? That's a tribunal 00:19:59.309 --> 00:20:01.670 that hears disputes between landlords and tenants, 00:20:01.849 --> 00:20:05.450 where landlords and tenants have infringed or 00:20:05.450 --> 00:20:08.390 breached their obligations under the Residential 00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:11.269 Tenancies Act. It's a tribunal that's the busiest 00:20:11.269 --> 00:20:14.289 tribunal in Ontario, typically hearing approximately 00:20:14.289 --> 00:20:17.930 80 ,000 applications for hearings every year. 00:20:18.529 --> 00:20:23.509 And they... are supposed to meet out their disputes 00:20:23.509 --> 00:20:27.609 in a fair and summary way. However, I believe 00:20:27.609 --> 00:20:30.009 probably your next question is how are they performing? 00:20:30.230 --> 00:20:33.950 Yes. And I can definitely tell you that over 00:20:33.950 --> 00:20:37.029 the last five years has demonstrated a marked 00:20:37.029 --> 00:20:40.170 decline in their ability to perform that function. 00:20:40.349 --> 00:20:44.950 In 2020, we saw how all tribunals and courts 00:20:44.950 --> 00:20:48.130 moved to a virtual format because of the pandemic. 00:20:48.829 --> 00:20:51.289 But many of them have returned to in -person 00:20:51.289 --> 00:20:54.289 hearings or hybrid hearings, but not so the Landlord 00:20:54.289 --> 00:20:57.450 Tenant Board. And so what's been happening, and 00:20:57.450 --> 00:21:00.730 because of that change and emphasis on their 00:21:00.730 --> 00:21:03.490 digital hearings, we've seen the board become 00:21:03.490 --> 00:21:07.869 slow in terms of scheduling hearings, in terms 00:21:07.869 --> 00:21:12.869 of issuing decisions. And as a result, last year, 00:21:12.950 --> 00:21:15.769 the Ombudsman of Ontario said that tenants had 00:21:15.769 --> 00:21:18.690 to wait up to two years. to have their matters 00:21:18.690 --> 00:21:21.210 heard, whereas landlords only wait six to nine 00:21:21.210 --> 00:21:25.089 months. And the primary reason for that delay, 00:21:25.210 --> 00:21:27.390 as I mentioned, is because they move to in -person 00:21:27.390 --> 00:21:30.950 hearings and Zoom formats. So in our conversation 00:21:30.950 --> 00:21:34.069 today, we're talking to each other through Zoom. 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:38.589 And Herman, you're kind enough not to talk over 00:21:38.589 --> 00:21:41.130 me because we want to have a conversation. We 00:21:41.130 --> 00:21:43.529 have that common goal of learning from each other. 00:21:43.690 --> 00:21:46.599 But at the Landlord Tenant Board, Two parties 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.829 are adversarial. They waited months. to have 00:21:49.829 --> 00:21:53.190 their issues addressed right and they're not 00:21:53.190 --> 00:21:55.569 going to be that way and so the ombudsman acknowledged 00:21:55.569 --> 00:22:00.089 that these hearings were chaotic and so you add 00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:04.069 that to the busiest system in the busiest tribunal 00:22:04.069 --> 00:22:06.390 in the province and you're going to have slower 00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:09.529 processing times so if i wanted to give you an 00:22:09.529 --> 00:22:12.549 example think of mcdonald's for example and they 00:22:12.549 --> 00:22:14.890 have different methods of access that's drive 00:22:14.890 --> 00:22:17.430 -through that's app that's in person on the counter 00:22:17.430 --> 00:22:20.410 so different methods of getting what you want 00:22:20.410 --> 00:22:23.009 so that's what the landlord tenant board had 00:22:23.009 --> 00:22:25.809 they had different methods of adjudication you 00:22:25.809 --> 00:22:28.589 can mediate matters you can go there in person 00:22:28.589 --> 00:22:32.210 but they went to digital so imagine McDonald's 00:22:32.210 --> 00:22:34.490 doing the same thing they force everyone going 00:22:34.490 --> 00:22:37.190 to go through the drive -through you can imagine 00:22:37.190 --> 00:22:40.069 that drive -through lineup and and they would 00:22:40.069 --> 00:22:42.569 only allow other alternatives if one were to 00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:44.769 say I don't drive because I can't access your 00:22:44.769 --> 00:22:48.450 drive -through and so that is the type of backlog 00:22:48.450 --> 00:22:50.390 that's been created the landlord tenant board 00:22:50.390 --> 00:22:54.190 because it's the busiest tribunal because it's 00:22:54.190 --> 00:22:58.130 an adversarial system it can't do as good a job 00:22:58.130 --> 00:23:01.910 as it was in person because in person you don't 00:23:01.910 --> 00:23:05.220 need a zoom moderator to put people in breakout 00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:07.880 rooms people just have conversations on the side 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:10.240 you can have multiple conversations to try and 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:13.200 resolve matters and unfortunately their ability 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:15.940 to resolve matters outside of the adjudication 00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:19.980 process has gone down from 40 to now six percent 00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:23.440 and that's why and that's primarily because of 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.519 the format they've chosen and i presume so many 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:28.440 of these people who go to the landlord and tenant 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:31.559 board are self -represented parties what kind 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:34.730 of tools are available for self -represented 00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:38.430 people to access in order to understand how this 00:23:38.430 --> 00:23:41.809 entire process works? There are online tools 00:23:41.809 --> 00:23:43.930 that the Landlord Tenant Board offers. There 00:23:43.930 --> 00:23:47.809 are online self -guided pathways that the community 00:23:47.809 --> 00:23:50.930 legal clinic system has. There's also the legal 00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:53.769 clinics themselves and Tenant Duty Council. So 00:23:53.769 --> 00:23:59.009 if anyone had received any documents from the 00:23:59.009 --> 00:24:00.910 Landlord Tenant Board or had questions about 00:24:00.910 --> 00:24:03.460 their rights, I would highly encourage them to 00:24:03.460 --> 00:24:05.859 not wait for the day of their hearing, but to 00:24:05.859 --> 00:24:08.579 reach out to their community legal clinic. But 00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:11.559 if they hadn't reached out to their community 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.119 legal clinic, then there's Tenant Duty Council 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:16.220 that's available on the day of their hearing 00:24:16.220 --> 00:24:19.299 for people who had questions, for people who 00:24:19.299 --> 00:24:23.440 needed advocacy on their dispute. And so Tenant 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.039 Duty Council is a program that the Advocacy Center 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:28.339 for Tenants Ontario runs across the province. 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:31.880 And so that's a program that's there to assist. 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:35.539 And ACTA also offers a tenant duty council program 00:24:35.539 --> 00:24:38.779 fund, correct? That's right. So if I was an aggrieved 00:24:38.779 --> 00:24:41.940 tenant, what is the number one step that I should 00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:44.400 do first in order to find some sort of solution? 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:48.380 I would Google Legal Aid Ontario and find out 00:24:48.380 --> 00:24:51.579 where your local clinic is. So we have community 00:24:51.579 --> 00:24:54.599 -led clinics across the province. So whether 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:59.259 you live in Bracebridge, Rainy River, in... Thorold, 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:03.119 Ontario, in Ottawa, you name it, there is a community 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:06.299 legal clinic that can serve you. Even five minutes 00:25:06.299 --> 00:25:09.559 or 10 minutes of advice is better than searching 00:25:09.559 --> 00:25:13.099 online, trying to find the answers because really 00:25:13.099 --> 00:25:15.440 when it comes to... residential tenancy law, 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.180 you won't find a better expert than the people 00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:20.579 who are working at the local community legal 00:25:20.579 --> 00:25:23.420 clinic. So that's really the first place that 00:25:23.420 --> 00:25:26.400 I would go to. Amazing. And you mentioned online 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.920 solutions. And part of me was a little curious, 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:33.019 and I decided to go online and see what some 00:25:33.019 --> 00:25:35.319 people are saying about the rental situation. 00:25:35.980 --> 00:25:38.619 So if you go on the Toronto subreddits, there's 00:25:38.619 --> 00:25:40.519 some very interesting comments. And you know, 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:43.170 people try to help each other out. You have people 00:25:43.170 --> 00:25:46.130 calling the situation here in Ontario flat out 00:25:46.130 --> 00:25:49.329 unaffordable. You have people living with multiple 00:25:49.329 --> 00:25:52.269 roommates. And you have people saying that the 00:25:52.269 --> 00:25:54.869 best they can do is move to the suburbs. So out 00:25:54.869 --> 00:25:58.849 of curiosity, how does Toronto, or to a larger 00:25:58.849 --> 00:26:02.029 extent, Ontario, how does that rental situation 00:26:02.029 --> 00:26:06.289 differ from other major cities or areas in the 00:26:06.289 --> 00:26:08.789 world? Well, Ontario is the most unaffordable 00:26:08.789 --> 00:26:11.109 province for renters in Canada, followed by BC. 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:15.359 that's in part because we have the highest tenant 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:19.640 population here and so when you look at stats 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:23.019 can data of the 20 most unaffordable municipalities 00:26:23.019 --> 00:26:27.200 in canada 12 are in ontario and the problems 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.420 are very similar across all the provinces and 00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:33.500 territories There's an affordable housing crisis, 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.359 certainly, but Ontario experiences the brunt 00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:38.700 of it because of its sheer population. There's 00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:41.940 approximately 1 .7 million renter households 00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:45.599 in Ontario. And although we have, there are tenant 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.160 rights legislation in place, but it's still a 00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:52.359 complaints driven process. And we still have 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:55.920 large rent control loopholes in Ontario that 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:58.039 needs to be closed. When we're talking about 00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:02.109 affordable rents, we need to get. rents under 00:27:02.109 --> 00:27:07.369 control in order for people to be able to afford 00:27:07.369 --> 00:27:10.390 to live in the places that they grew up near 00:27:10.390 --> 00:27:13.809 their workplaces and for them to feel that they 00:27:13.809 --> 00:27:16.349 have a place that's safe and secure to live in. 00:27:16.569 --> 00:27:19.569 Absolutely. So speaking about your own personal 00:27:19.569 --> 00:27:22.049 experience, have you had any personal experience 00:27:22.049 --> 00:27:24.730 with renting, for example, in Ontario or in Toronto? 00:27:25.579 --> 00:27:28.920 I have. Actually, very recently, last year, in 00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:33.140 fact, I rented a townhouse because my home had 00:27:33.140 --> 00:27:37.579 to go under some renovations. um and so it was 00:27:37.579 --> 00:27:41.299 quite a pleasant experience uh you know and by 00:27:41.299 --> 00:27:43.859 far i have to say you know i would say eighty 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:47.240 percent of landlord tenant relations are pleasant 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:51.019 are um you know are situations where it never 00:27:51.019 --> 00:27:53.680 reaches the media or the landlord tenant board 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.420 um it's really much like all the other stories 00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:58.940 you hear uh we're talking about the worst 20 00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:02.640 or 10 of those stories so as a tenant you know 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.990 i certainly uh experience of for that brief period 00:28:06.990 --> 00:28:09.829 of time what a 10 is like but i know that my 00:28:09.829 --> 00:28:14.269 experience is nowhere near i would say the atypical 00:28:14.269 --> 00:28:17.579 10 experience Yeah, as a current renter myself, 00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:20.099 I'm I think I'm very blessed and privileged to 00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:22.619 have a good landlord tenant relationship. And 00:28:22.619 --> 00:28:24.400 I know that's not the case for a lot of people. 00:28:24.779 --> 00:28:26.740 And, you know, I do see those stories that you 00:28:26.740 --> 00:28:28.940 mentioned earlier about, you know, people renting 00:28:28.940 --> 00:28:32.180 out mattresses or closets. And you see these 00:28:32.180 --> 00:28:34.980 and it's very egregious. But I was wondering, 00:28:35.059 --> 00:28:38.319 is there any type of change that's coming or 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:40.640 that you know about that gives you hope for the 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:45.609 future? Yeah, I have a lot of hope. I want to 00:28:45.609 --> 00:28:48.430 tell you, there's this new advocacy group called 00:28:48.430 --> 00:28:51.349 Fair Rent Ontario that's come together to win 00:28:51.349 --> 00:28:54.289 comprehensive rent control in the province. And 00:28:54.289 --> 00:28:57.390 so the goal is to reinstate rent control. That 00:28:57.390 --> 00:29:01.089 means that it will be an end to vacancy decontrol, 00:29:01.289 --> 00:29:04.569 which is the method, as I said before, where 00:29:04.569 --> 00:29:07.230 if you have a vacant unit, a landlord can charge 00:29:07.230 --> 00:29:10.349 to their heart's desire the rent for the next 00:29:10.349 --> 00:29:13.460 tenant. and so we want to close that loophole 00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:17.619 where even if a unit becomes vacant that rent 00:29:17.619 --> 00:29:21.220 is moderated we want to make sure through fair 00:29:21.220 --> 00:29:24.920 rent ontario that there's no longer a 2018 exemption 00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:28.079 which means that any building that's first occupied 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:32.819 after 2018 is not rent controlled so that's why 00:29:32.819 --> 00:29:36.380 we're seeing situations where people are enticed 00:29:36.380 --> 00:29:39.200 to live to move and live in a building for one 00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:42.140 year only to find themselves with a double -digit 00:29:42.140 --> 00:29:44.859 rent increase the following year and so fair 00:29:44.859 --> 00:29:49.140 rent ontario is a advocacy organization that's 00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:52.779 come together and we'll be advocating to close 00:29:52.779 --> 00:29:55.079 those loopholes you know housing is a human rights 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:58.549 uh we firmly believe that ad acto and the government 00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:02.750 of Ontario and all parties that want to form 00:30:02.750 --> 00:30:05.309 government need to ensure that everyone has access 00:30:05.309 --> 00:30:07.690 to safe and affordable housing. That means applying 00:30:07.690 --> 00:30:09.910 and adopting some of these policies that we're 00:30:09.910 --> 00:30:12.329 advocating for, which is closing those loopholes. 00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:15.240 and we want to also end above guideline rent 00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:18.059 increases and those are situations in which you 00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:21.660 see those purpose -built build purpose -built 00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:25.400 rental buildings where landlords are making cosmetic 00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:28.640 changes replacing the balcony and then are trying 00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:31.779 to download the cost of those replacements to 00:30:31.779 --> 00:30:34.420 the tenants and thereby increasing their rent 00:30:34.420 --> 00:30:36.559 by double digits we want to end that because 00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.259 at the end of the day it's the landlord's obligation 00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:41.319 to maintain their buildings i've also encouraged 00:30:41.930 --> 00:30:44.869 when i see cities like hamilton toronto and london 00:30:44.869 --> 00:30:48.329 and other municipalities who are tackling the 00:30:48.329 --> 00:30:51.490 housing crisis head -on they're introducing things 00:30:51.490 --> 00:30:54.670 like anti -renovation bylaws to ensure that their 00:30:54.670 --> 00:30:57.490 affordable units stay affordable in their in 00:30:57.490 --> 00:31:00.349 their community i'm encouraged by the association 00:31:00.349 --> 00:31:02.529 of municipalities of ontario they're responding 00:31:02.529 --> 00:31:05.490 to the encampment crisis because by identifying 00:31:05.490 --> 00:31:09.650 in that in ontario we have 80 000 people living 00:31:09.650 --> 00:31:13.799 homeless That's the population of Peterborough. 00:31:14.019 --> 00:31:15.880 So the Association of Municipalities of Ontario 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:20.059 are really calling for increased investments 00:31:20.059 --> 00:31:24.029 to solve the homelessness crisis. It's unfortunate 00:31:24.029 --> 00:31:26.829 that we have a political party that wants to 00:31:26.829 --> 00:31:29.950 trample on child rights as its solution. When 00:31:29.950 --> 00:31:32.130 really when we're talking about housing it's 00:31:32.130 --> 00:31:34.109 the provincial responsibility and unfortunately 00:31:34.109 --> 00:31:37.529 the province's failure to address housing which 00:31:37.529 --> 00:31:40.369 has led to this crisis. So I'm encouraged to 00:31:40.369 --> 00:31:43.450 see that municipalities are stepping up and trying 00:31:43.450 --> 00:31:46.170 to do what the province should be doing more 00:31:46.170 --> 00:31:49.480 of which is really investing in housing. Also, 00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.180 you know, through our work, there are many ways 00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:55.259 that we think that all levels of government can 00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:57.819 be involved to try and solve the housing crisis. 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:01.579 You know, I have a laundry list here with me. 00:32:01.619 --> 00:32:07.140 And if you're OK, listen to it. Sure. Yeah. So, 00:32:07.299 --> 00:32:11.000 first of all, all levels of government can be 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.740 involved in. creation of affordable housing. 00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:17.180 And so I mentioned municipalities, gave you some 00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:20.839 examples. The federal government has created 00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:23.980 a national housing strategy in 2018, and they 00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:26.799 dedicated billions of dollars towards it. But 00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:29.319 those billions of dollars were in the form of 00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:33.859 loans for below market housing. And that's not 00:32:33.859 --> 00:32:36.680 enough because we don't need below market housing, 00:32:36.819 --> 00:32:39.700 which is 10 to 20 % of what average market rent 00:32:39.700 --> 00:32:42.839 is, we need deeply affordable housing that meets 00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:47.140 the definition of CMHC. And so more dedicated 00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:50.619 funds for truly affordable housing is what the 00:32:50.619 --> 00:32:53.220 federal government can do. The federal government 00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:56.819 can, through their tax mechanisms, ensure that 00:32:56.819 --> 00:32:59.700 real estate investment trusts aren't exacerbating 00:32:59.700 --> 00:33:02.880 the housing crisis. The provinces can close, 00:33:03.019 --> 00:33:06.900 as I said, rent control loopholes. They can also 00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:12.359 do things such as make sure that there's stronger 00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:15.480 controls for short -term rentals. We saw when 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:19.539 the pandemic came about in 2020, how when the 00:33:19.539 --> 00:33:22.920 province stopped all short -term rental operators 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:26.000 from operating, the flood of long -term rental 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:30.380 units came online. If we have stronger, shorter 00:33:30.380 --> 00:33:35.019 term rental controls, we can bring more of that 00:33:35.019 --> 00:33:38.579 supply for Ontarians who need housing. We need 00:33:38.579 --> 00:33:41.940 the landlord tenant board to be fixed. When the 00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:45.700 sheriff is not operating well, then we have a 00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:48.440 wild west and that's impacting the housing crisis. 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:53.299 Also, municipalities can allocate more funding 00:33:53.299 --> 00:33:56.180 for shelters and transitional housing to support 00:33:56.180 --> 00:34:00.500 people living homeless. and people who are living 00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:04.519 precariously housed. Those are some of the things 00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.619 that I think municipalities and provinces and 00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:11.219 the federal government can do. But there's lots 00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:14.099 of tools. And so just going back to what you 00:34:14.099 --> 00:34:16.699 asked me, do I have hope? I have tremendous hope 00:34:16.699 --> 00:34:20.260 that we have the tools. They've been tested out 00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:22.500 in different jurisdictions. We just need the 00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:25.579 political will to get it done. Thank you so much 00:34:25.579 --> 00:34:27.800 for going through that list. And what's so interesting 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:31.000 is because, you know, you see people who go out 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.679 and demonstrate, you know, they protest. And 00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:35.599 it's really inspiring to see people, you know, 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:38.679 tenants who are aggrieved, they're not taking 00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:41.820 this sitting down, they want to make change. 00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:44.079 And a lot of those changes are some of the items 00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:46.059 that you've mentioned as well. I'm sure that 00:34:46.059 --> 00:34:47.820 that must also be inspiring to the work that 00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:49.860 you do to see people stand up for themselves 00:34:49.860 --> 00:34:53.099 and ask for, you know, affordable housing and 00:34:53.099 --> 00:34:56.239 housing that is not something that has to be 00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:59.079 an ongoing concern. My last question for you 00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:03.059 before we end things off here is what has been 00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:05.739 your favorite moment so far working at Acto? 00:35:05.780 --> 00:35:09.280 And why does that keep you going? I have lots 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:13.039 of great moments. You know, it's difficult to 00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:16.579 identify just one. You know, I think when you 00:35:16.579 --> 00:35:19.300 asked me that question, I think of our senior. 00:35:20.090 --> 00:35:23.530 litigation lawyer, winning big at the Ontario 00:35:23.530 --> 00:35:28.070 Court of Appeal. I think of our community organizer 00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:32.210 who is able to connect a handful of tenants and 00:35:32.210 --> 00:35:35.110 inspire them to form a tenant association who 00:35:35.110 --> 00:35:37.989 are now part of the Fair Rent Ontario campaign. 00:35:38.610 --> 00:35:43.130 So there's a lot of great moments. We issue the 00:35:43.130 --> 00:35:46.340 reports. for the public. And it's great to have 00:35:46.340 --> 00:35:49.780 OGEN be interested in the work that we do and 00:35:49.780 --> 00:35:55.079 have decision makers and the public really get 00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:57.940 with the help of our reports, get a better understanding 00:35:57.940 --> 00:36:01.139 of the crisis that we're currently in. So at 00:36:01.139 --> 00:36:03.599 ACTO, we want to make sure that we talk to everybody, 00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:05.840 you know, whether it's, you know, sure, we talk 00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:09.309 to tenants, we speak with nonprofits, but we 00:36:09.309 --> 00:36:11.829 also speak with landlords and we also speak with 00:36:11.829 --> 00:36:14.829 local parties of all types because housing is 00:36:14.829 --> 00:36:17.909 not a partisan issue. It impacts everybody and 00:36:17.909 --> 00:36:22.110 we can all be part of the solution. And so the 00:36:22.110 --> 00:36:26.090 part of the job I say that keeps me going is 00:36:26.090 --> 00:36:30.010 these opportunities to reach out to groups such 00:36:30.010 --> 00:36:32.789 as yourself and your listeners through your podcast 00:36:32.789 --> 00:36:36.420 and really drive home the message that through 00:36:36.420 --> 00:36:40.059 knowledge and collective action, we can make 00:36:40.059 --> 00:36:42.539 a difference together. Amazing. And what a great 00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:44.920 way to end this episode. Douglas, I want to thank 00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:47.519 you for your time, for being here today. I think 00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:49.940 everybody learned a lot about the rental situation 00:36:49.940 --> 00:36:52.960 here in Ontario. Before we end things off, where 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.679 can the people find you? Are you on social media? 00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:00.539 I'm currently on X and temporarily, I don't know. 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:04.559 Temporarily, okay. So you can find me at Doug 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.920 Kwan Acto. Amazing. Well, Douglas, thank you 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:10.780 again. And that concludes this episode. Thank 00:37:10.780 --> 00:37:14.980 you very much. Thank you for tapping into this 00:37:14.980 --> 00:37:17.860 episode of Law Syrup. On the next episode, I 00:37:17.860 --> 00:37:20.099 talk to a panel of teachers who all teach law 00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:22.199 in high school. I ask them what inspires them 00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:23.940 and what are some of the best responses they've 00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:26.280 received from students. Law Syrup is produced 00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:29.260 by me, Herman Wong, and the Ontario Justice Education 00:37:29.260 --> 00:37:32.389 Network. For more information and for accompanying 00:37:32.389 --> 00:37:35.909 resources, check out ojen .ca and our show notes. 00:37:36.130 --> 00:37:37.309 See you next time.