WEBVTT 00:00:01.299 --> 00:00:03.540 Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk 00:00:03.540 --> 00:00:05.679 with special guests about hot topics in Canadian 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:08.359 law. This podcast is a co -production with the 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:10.779 Ontario Justice Education Network, also known 00:00:10.779 --> 00:00:14.199 as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman Wong. Let's tap 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:22.280 it. Before we begin, please know that this show 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:24.879 is not intended to be legal advice or a replacement 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:28.629 for a legal representative. Hey, everyone, and 00:00:28.629 --> 00:00:32.070 welcome back to Law Syrup. I am so excited to 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:33.829 have the show come back, and I'm thrilled to 00:00:33.829 --> 00:00:36.450 share with you my conversations with some truly 00:00:36.450 --> 00:00:39.509 amazing guests this year. To kick off our second 00:00:39.509 --> 00:00:42.229 season, I held a panel discussion on the topic 00:00:42.229 --> 00:00:45.490 of Gladue Court. What is Gladue Court? What happens 00:00:45.490 --> 00:00:48.429 there? And how can we learn more about it and 00:00:48.429 --> 00:00:50.850 other resources that are available to the public? 00:00:51.659 --> 00:00:53.859 To help explore this topic, joining our panel 00:00:53.859 --> 00:00:56.679 is Justice Andre Chamberlain, Jonathan Rudin 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.340 from Aboriginal Legal Services, Crown Attorney 00:00:59.340 --> 00:01:02.500 Emma Hayden, and Duty Counsel Lysandra Moreno. 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:06.370 Here's what we discussed. Hey, everyone. I want 00:01:06.370 --> 00:01:08.250 to start things off by saying that it's incredible 00:01:08.250 --> 00:01:10.370 to have everyone that's present here on the episode 00:01:10.370 --> 00:01:13.609 today to speak about Gladue Courts. And we have 00:01:13.609 --> 00:01:15.670 a very stacked panel here. So thank you so much 00:01:15.670 --> 00:01:18.069 for taking the time out of your busy days to 00:01:18.069 --> 00:01:20.049 share your thoughts and your work within this 00:01:20.049 --> 00:01:22.790 space. I believe that this topic is one that 00:01:22.790 --> 00:01:25.349 many people in the public are interested in. 00:01:25.489 --> 00:01:27.689 And some people might have heard of Gladue Court, 00:01:27.790 --> 00:01:30.049 but might not know exactly what it entails or 00:01:30.049 --> 00:01:32.370 what the process is like compared to other court 00:01:32.370 --> 00:01:34.799 settings. So I think today's episode is going 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:38.000 to be a really engaging one. Before we get started, 00:01:38.060 --> 00:01:40.379 how about we all go around and we tell each other 00:01:40.379 --> 00:01:43.079 who we are, where we work, and what your position 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:45.400 is. So Justice Chamberlain, how about we start 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:48.319 with you first? Sure, thank you. And thank you 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.599 for inviting me. I'm honored to be here. My name 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:52.140 is Andre Chamberlain. I'm a judge of the Ontario 00:01:52.140 --> 00:01:54.200 Court of Justice. I've been a judge. I was appointed 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:57.480 in 2019. Before that, I was a federal crown, 00:01:57.700 --> 00:01:59.420 and I've been involved with the Gladue Court, 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:02.780 I think, since about 2000. three, I think, or 00:02:02.780 --> 00:02:07.819 so. I am also a member of the Innu community 00:02:07.819 --> 00:02:11.199 from Meshlawietch in Quebec. My mother was a 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:14.819 residential school survivor, and I am a 60 scoop 00:02:14.819 --> 00:02:20.759 kid, so that's kind of what I bring, and I happen 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.120 to be the lead for the Gladue Court in Toronto 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.460 at the Ontario Court of Justice here at 10 Armory. 00:02:26.300 --> 00:02:29.810 Emma, how about you? Thanks, Herman. Thanks as 00:02:29.810 --> 00:02:32.789 well for having me be part of this podcast and 00:02:32.789 --> 00:02:35.550 this panel. It's a real honor. I'm an assistant 00:02:35.550 --> 00:02:38.710 crown attorney in Toronto. I've been a crown 00:02:38.710 --> 00:02:42.610 for 15 years. I've done all of my practice in 00:02:42.610 --> 00:02:44.430 Toronto before we moved to our new courthouse 00:02:44.430 --> 00:02:46.270 at 10 Armory Street. I was mostly at College 00:02:46.270 --> 00:02:49.520 Park. While most of my career has been spent 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.479 either being the lead crown for my office at 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:55.599 the Gladue Court and also doing a very significant 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:58.939 trial work, there was a period of time in 2017 00:02:58.939 --> 00:03:02.080 and 2018, I was counsel for the province of Ontario 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:04.139 for the national inquiry into missing and murdered 00:03:04.139 --> 00:03:06.979 Indigenous women and girls. And so represented 00:03:06.979 --> 00:03:09.879 the province at the family hearings and other 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:13.000 hearings that were part of the national inquiry. 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:18.550 Thanks. Amazing. Thank you. And Lissandra, how 00:03:18.550 --> 00:03:19.889 about you tell us a little bit about yourself? 00:03:21.229 --> 00:03:23.550 And thank you very much, Herman, for having me. 00:03:23.770 --> 00:03:27.090 So I'm with Duty Council. So Duty Council provides 00:03:27.090 --> 00:03:30.930 free legal services to those who are unrepresented. 00:03:31.409 --> 00:03:33.990 I've been in this position for about seven months. 00:03:34.009 --> 00:03:37.469 And before that, I was in private practice as 00:03:37.469 --> 00:03:39.590 a criminal defense lawyer, where my practice 00:03:39.590 --> 00:03:42.750 mostly focused on representing Indigenous accused. 00:03:43.050 --> 00:03:46.189 And now as Duty Council, I'm one of the Duty 00:03:46.189 --> 00:03:49.270 Council that staffs the Gladue Court. And I'm 00:03:49.270 --> 00:03:53.189 also a Métis. Ojibwe. And last but not least, 00:03:53.330 --> 00:03:57.629 Jonathan. I'm Jonathan Rudin. I'm the Special 00:03:57.629 --> 00:03:59.930 Projects Director at Aboriginal Legal Services. 00:04:00.629 --> 00:04:03.610 That's our English name. Our Anishinaabemowin 00:04:03.610 --> 00:04:07.310 name is Gikinigwaiwabamatibwewin, which translates 00:04:07.310 --> 00:04:09.789 as all those who seek the truth. And that name 00:04:09.789 --> 00:04:13.449 was given to us by Elder Jackie LaVallee. I've 00:04:13.449 --> 00:04:15.430 been with Aboriginal Legal Services since it 00:04:15.430 --> 00:04:19.069 started in 1990. So yeah, I've been around for 00:04:19.069 --> 00:04:21.800 a while. So before we get started on our main 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:24.339 topic, how about we all share what brought us 00:04:24.339 --> 00:04:26.240 to a career in the legal profession in the first 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.860 place? So Jonathan, how about we start with you 00:04:28.860 --> 00:04:34.160 first? Okay, how long is the podcast? Take as 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.600 long as you want. That's fine. Okay, well, I 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.759 told you the quick version. So I always thought 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.500 I would want to be a lawyer until I went to law 00:04:42.500 --> 00:04:44.740 school. And then I went to law school and finished 00:04:44.740 --> 00:04:46.579 law school and thought, I don't want to be a 00:04:46.579 --> 00:04:50.120 lawyer. I didn't enjoy it. So I took about 10 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:53.620 years off to work, do community work. I got my 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:58.399 master's in law, focusing on the charter. I did 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.339 a number of projects with regard to Indigenous 00:05:01.339 --> 00:05:06.019 people in the legal system. And then in 1990, 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:09.620 there was a posting for a one -month job at setting 00:05:09.620 --> 00:05:12.120 up Aboriginal legal services. So I applied and 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.199 got the job, and it's been a very long month. 00:05:14.699 --> 00:05:16.660 And Justice Chamberlain, what brought you to 00:05:16.660 --> 00:05:20.300 the law? You know, I was working in mental health 00:05:20.300 --> 00:05:23.199 for years. In my 20s, I worked in group homes 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.420 with kids who had psychiatric and emotional difficulties, 00:05:26.420 --> 00:05:28.819 and then I worked in an outpatient treatment 00:05:28.819 --> 00:05:30.920 center for kids who were dealing with addictions 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.879 and addiction issues in their families. I moved 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:35.500 to Toronto, worked at a place called the Gerstein 00:05:35.500 --> 00:05:37.319 Center, which is a psychiatric crisis intervention 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:40.600 center, and then was a little burnt out and tired 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:42.600 and decided to go back to school because I hadn't 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:45.720 finished my undergrad degree. And so I went back 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:47.540 and, but at the end of it, I was kind of like, 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:49.000 well, what am I going to do now? I hadn't quite 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:50.300 finished my undergrad. I was still, I'm still 00:05:50.300 --> 00:05:53.300 a half credit short of getting my BA, but I decided, 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:54.980 I found out I could apply to some law schools 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:57.420 and I got into Osgoode. So it was really kind 00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:59.939 of a spur thing. I was like, you know, I've often 00:05:59.939 --> 00:06:01.600 thought about being a lawyer. I didn't talk to 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:03.439 anybody about it because I suspect if I had, 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.519 I might not be here now, but I got into law school 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:08.839 and then found myself with a federal crown eventually 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.220 to doing some work with family law for a little 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:15.379 bit. And then as a prosecutor. And Emma, how 00:06:15.379 --> 00:06:19.439 about you? So funny enough, I have a lot of similarities 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.480 to Justice Chamberlain's background. I didn't 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:25.240 think that I ever wanted to be a lawyer. I worked 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:29.019 in public health area, although not so much service 00:06:29.019 --> 00:06:31.459 provision like his honor did, more the research 00:06:31.459 --> 00:06:33.879 area. And so doing research and policy largely 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.319 in the area of harm reduction, safe injection 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.379 kits, safe consumption sites, that kind of thing, 00:06:39.459 --> 00:06:41.839 heroin prescription. I worked at the Center for 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:43.360 Addiction and Mental Health for a number of years 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.230 and did a master's in public health. And then 00:06:46.230 --> 00:06:49.189 the time came where I needed to think of a next 00:06:49.189 --> 00:06:52.529 step. And the next step was either do a PhD or 00:06:52.529 --> 00:06:56.110 go to law school. And so I decided to go to law 00:06:56.110 --> 00:06:59.730 school. My plan always from the beginning was 00:06:59.730 --> 00:07:03.670 to go into criminal law and to be a crown when 00:07:03.670 --> 00:07:06.910 I had done my research. In my master's in public 00:07:06.910 --> 00:07:10.370 health, I saw the intersections of people dealing 00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:13.170 with mental health and substance use and being 00:07:13.170 --> 00:07:15.370 involved in the criminal justice system and everything 00:07:15.370 --> 00:07:17.750 else that we call, you know, the social determinants 00:07:17.750 --> 00:07:19.790 of health. That's what we talked about in our 00:07:19.790 --> 00:07:22.449 research. And so that's always what I wanted 00:07:22.449 --> 00:07:24.689 to do. But it was also a little bit of a weird 00:07:24.689 --> 00:07:27.389 fluke. I kind of just decided to apply one time 00:07:27.389 --> 00:07:31.810 and here we are. And last but not least, Lissandra, 00:07:32.009 --> 00:07:35.439 what brought you to the law? So it stemmed from 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.360 my Indigenous background. When I went into undergrad, 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.279 I didn't know what I wanted to do or what I wanted 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.360 to study, but I just knew I wanted something 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.060 that would kind of contextualize my experiences 00:07:46.060 --> 00:07:48.839 as an Indigenous person. And I had quite a few 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:50.980 family members who were in and out of the system. 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:54.519 So that led me to taking criminology, where I 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.490 really started to learn about the... overrepresentation 00:07:57.490 --> 00:08:00.629 of Indigenous people in prison. And it just became 00:08:00.629 --> 00:08:03.649 a topic that was very passionate to me. I knew 00:08:03.649 --> 00:08:05.910 that I wanted to do some kind of work where I 00:08:05.910 --> 00:08:08.810 could work directly with Indigenous people and 00:08:08.810 --> 00:08:12.370 make impact and change on a personal level, like 00:08:12.370 --> 00:08:15.709 a daily kind of change in addition to bigger 00:08:15.709 --> 00:08:18.310 changes. And then from there, I just kind of 00:08:18.310 --> 00:08:21.230 found my way into law and just felt that getting 00:08:21.230 --> 00:08:23.870 into the defense side of things was the perfect 00:08:23.870 --> 00:08:26.810 fit for me. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. 00:08:26.990 --> 00:08:29.170 You know, let's talk about what Gladue Court 00:08:29.170 --> 00:08:32.870 or Indigenous Peoples Court is in general. So 00:08:32.870 --> 00:08:35.070 maybe Jonathan, this is a question for you, but 00:08:35.070 --> 00:08:38.149 where exactly did the name Gladue come from? 00:08:38.250 --> 00:08:42.509 And what exactly is Gladue Court? In Canada, 00:08:42.509 --> 00:08:46.509 we often tend to name things after cases. And 00:08:46.509 --> 00:08:49.470 so in 1999, there was a case at the Supreme Court 00:08:49.470 --> 00:08:53.769 of Canada. involving Jamie Tannis Gladue. We 00:08:53.769 --> 00:08:57.509 pronounce it Gladue. West of Ontario, they pronounce 00:08:57.509 --> 00:09:00.649 it Gladue. So I'll just say Gladue, although 00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:04.070 I want to be respectful to her family. And this 00:09:04.070 --> 00:09:08.490 was a case that interpreted Section 718 .2e of 00:09:08.490 --> 00:09:11.529 the Criminal Code, which was enacted in 1996. 00:09:12.029 --> 00:09:16.329 And that section says that when sentencing A 00:09:16.329 --> 00:09:18.629 person, a judge should look for all alternatives 00:09:18.629 --> 00:09:21.750 to incarceration that are reasonable in the circumstances 00:09:21.750 --> 00:09:24.590 with particular attention to the circumstances 00:09:24.590 --> 00:09:28.450 of Indigenous people. No one knew what that section 00:09:28.450 --> 00:09:32.450 meant until 1999 and hence the Gladue decision. 00:09:32.789 --> 00:09:36.330 And that's why so many things related to the 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:38.970 sentencing of Indigenous people now come with 00:09:38.970 --> 00:09:41.330 the word Gladue attached to it. Would anyone 00:09:41.330 --> 00:09:44.090 else like to share? Well, I'll jump in there. 00:09:44.210 --> 00:09:47.629 I think I would say it's evolved over time. When 00:09:47.629 --> 00:09:49.990 we started back in 2001, and I've been back, 00:09:50.029 --> 00:09:52.289 I think I was back in 2001 when I started as 00:09:52.289 --> 00:09:55.330 I'm thinking back now that, you know, we were 00:09:55.330 --> 00:09:58.129 just in a regular court at Old City Hall. We 00:09:58.129 --> 00:10:00.529 had, you know, a few judges who were interested 00:10:00.529 --> 00:10:02.250 in starting this and any folks who identified 00:10:02.250 --> 00:10:05.169 as Indigenous would come there. And we had crowns 00:10:05.169 --> 00:10:08.370 and duty council and federal crowns and staff 00:10:08.370 --> 00:10:11.399 from Aboriginal Legal Services who were knowledgeable 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:14.559 and wanted to learn about and to do this kind 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:17.000 of work. And so we kind of started that way, 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:19.179 but then we decided to have operational meetings 00:10:19.179 --> 00:10:21.960 monthly. And so we started changing how we do 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:24.960 things, started changing how we approach bail, 00:10:25.139 --> 00:10:28.340 how we approach sentencing. And it's evolved 00:10:28.340 --> 00:10:31.600 over time to now where we sit in a new courthouse 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.759 at 10 Armory Street where we have a courtroom 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:38.019 that has a table that is in a circle. We have 00:10:38.019 --> 00:10:40.759 a courtroom that hides the dais where the judge 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.080 usually sits and hides the colonial emblems of 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.840 the crown. And we all sit at the same level at 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:49.350 the table. We've changed how we do things. You 00:10:49.350 --> 00:10:51.429 know, in courts, you'll see, you know, whether 00:10:51.429 --> 00:10:53.350 if you've been in court that when the judge comes 00:10:53.350 --> 00:10:55.950 in, everybody gets up, all rise. There's an introduction. 00:10:56.049 --> 00:10:58.450 Everybody bows to the judge. The judge bows back. 00:10:59.049 --> 00:11:00.909 There's a formal introduction. We've done away 00:11:00.909 --> 00:11:02.889 with kind of some of those kinds of colonial 00:11:02.889 --> 00:11:06.110 trappings of the court because we recognize that 00:11:06.110 --> 00:11:08.509 Indigenous folks have struggled and have lost 00:11:08.509 --> 00:11:10.549 a lot of faith in the criminal justice system. 00:11:10.669 --> 00:11:13.029 And so we wanted to make it more relatable, less 00:11:13.029 --> 00:11:15.090 intimidating. So there's different things that 00:11:15.090 --> 00:11:17.230 we've done. We've brought food in because we 00:11:17.230 --> 00:11:19.840 realized, you know. Hunger and food is an issue. 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.360 We have workers. We now bring in some ceremonies. 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:27.039 We do smudging every morning and offer smudging 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.679 during the day for folks who wish to smudge with 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:32.879 medicine, with sage and whatnot. We have feathers 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:36.019 available if folks request them for either ceremony 00:11:36.019 --> 00:11:42.799 or for oaths. We're very much trying to... come 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:44.779 to build a relationship. And we have a smaller 00:11:44.779 --> 00:11:47.159 group of folks involved so that you build relationships 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:49.779 with people, get to know them. So it's not just 00:11:49.779 --> 00:11:52.000 they're coming to court and facing the hammer 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.320 of the justice system. You start building relationships, 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:56.200 getting to know people and building a better 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.220 trust. So I think that's my view, I think, of 00:11:58.220 --> 00:11:59.919 how we've changed. I'm sure people have other 00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:03.710 perspectives as well. I'm just just on that point 00:12:03.710 --> 00:12:06.389 that Justice Chamberlain raised about the relationship 00:12:06.389 --> 00:12:09.230 building. I think that's one of the key parts 00:12:09.230 --> 00:12:12.309 of what happens in that courtroom. And, you know, 00:12:12.330 --> 00:12:14.870 we work in the criminal justice system. We always 00:12:14.870 --> 00:12:17.289 think of it as this highly adversarial system, 00:12:17.549 --> 00:12:20.490 meaning it's kind of the crown. And then there's 00:12:20.490 --> 00:12:23.809 the accused person and the interests are very 00:12:23.809 --> 00:12:27.169 different and their positions are going to be 00:12:27.169 --> 00:12:28.710 very different. And there isn't much communication 00:12:28.710 --> 00:12:32.929 between the two. Crown Attorney despite the fact 00:12:32.929 --> 00:12:35.389 that that adversarial system still exists there. 00:12:36.700 --> 00:12:39.159 relationships are so important because you trust 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:41.299 what you're going to learn about someone. Sometimes 00:12:41.299 --> 00:12:43.240 people are telling you very personal things about 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:45.700 their lives too. And you have to honor that trust 00:12:45.700 --> 00:12:49.840 and honor that respect. And being in that court 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:52.700 on a regular basis helps to build those relationships. 00:12:52.899 --> 00:12:55.139 For instance, I have relationships that I build 00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:58.019 with duty counsel like Lissandra. And that's 00:12:58.019 --> 00:12:59.899 really important too, in order for them to be 00:12:59.899 --> 00:13:01.659 able to feel comfortable sharing information 00:13:01.659 --> 00:13:04.860 about their clients, for instance. And when we 00:13:04.860 --> 00:13:06.879 build that relationship, When you build that 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.399 respect and you honour people in that space, 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.139 making it a little bit less uncomfortable for 00:13:12.139 --> 00:13:15.580 people who have had discomfort and pain and trauma 00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:18.120 in the criminal justice system and outside of 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.700 it. We're not only making the lives of the people 00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:22.700 who are coming into that court better. I'm doing 00:13:22.700 --> 00:13:25.100 my job as a Crown, which is, you know, helping 00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:27.980 ensure public safety, community respect, community 00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:30.740 safety and all those things. That's what we're 00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:32.559 doing in that court, or at least trying to do. 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:36.379 And going back to the history of the Gladue Courts, 00:13:36.379 --> 00:13:38.480 and maybe Jonathan, this is another question 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:40.720 that we can ask you, but when did discussions 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:44.539 begin for creating a space like the Gladue Courts? 00:13:45.259 --> 00:13:48.460 You mentioned earlier that Gladue was a 1999 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:51.399 case. It was actually argued in November of 1998. 00:13:51.779 --> 00:13:54.559 And Aboriginal Legal Services was what's called 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.720 an intervener. We were at the court and we were 00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.039 making arguments in the case. The decision came 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:02.320 out in April 1999. It's a remarkable decision. 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.139 It's written. It's pretty easy to read. And it's 00:14:05.139 --> 00:14:08.860 really, I go back to it every month or two I 00:14:08.860 --> 00:14:11.840 read it. And as a lawyer, it was really exciting 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:14.460 to get this decision because this is why I wanted 00:14:14.460 --> 00:14:16.320 to be a lawyer, to get involved in cases like 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:20.879 this. It was all really exciting. But then not 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.340 much changed. So even though the Supreme Court 00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.019 in Gladue said judges had to sentence people 00:14:26.019 --> 00:14:29.059 differently, that the overrepresentation of Indigenous 00:14:29.059 --> 00:14:31.980 people was a crisis, things weren't changing. 00:14:32.460 --> 00:14:38.120 And so in September of 2000, we were invited 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:41.679 to a conference of judges from across the country. 00:14:42.019 --> 00:14:44.200 And we gave a little presentation about what 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:47.519 we did at Aboriginal Legal Services. And one 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.740 of the people in the room was Justice Patrick 00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:52.840 Sheppard, who's since passed away. He was a judge 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:55.720 at Old City Hall. And at the end of the session, 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:57.960 after we talked about how disappointed we were 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:00.759 that things weren't happening with Gladue, Justice 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:04.179 Sheppard said, what if we set up a court just 00:15:04.179 --> 00:15:06.220 to deal with Indigenous people? What do you think? 00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:08.590 And we said, well, we think that's... That's 00:15:08.590 --> 00:15:12.970 a great idea. And so for the next year, we worked. 00:15:12.990 --> 00:15:14.990 It was largely Justice Shepard and some other 00:15:14.990 --> 00:15:18.070 judges who worked to establish the court. And 00:15:18.070 --> 00:15:22.450 in the fall of 2001, the Gladue Court opened. 00:15:22.490 --> 00:15:25.389 It was the first one of its kind in Canada. So 00:15:25.389 --> 00:15:28.960 it was pretty remarkable. What exactly is expected 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.279 of judges who do appear in Gladue courts? Because 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:34.019 we talked a little bit about the differences 00:15:34.019 --> 00:15:36.740 from other court settings, but Justice Chamberlain, 00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:39.460 maybe you can answer that question for us. You 00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:41.360 know, the thing we have to remember is that judges 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:43.679 are independent, right? Like, it's very important 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.419 that judges, you know, not be influenced by rules 00:15:46.419 --> 00:15:48.440 and other than the law. We all have to follow 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.809 the law. But the reality is, I know for me, Part 00:15:51.809 --> 00:15:54.389 of the comfort that I have, and I think why Gladucourt 00:15:54.389 --> 00:15:57.529 works well, is because of the informality. And, 00:15:57.610 --> 00:15:59.470 you know, and at times it could be a chaotic 00:15:59.470 --> 00:16:01.769 place, right? You've got folks, some of whom 00:16:01.769 --> 00:16:03.429 have a lot of different struggles, including 00:16:03.429 --> 00:16:06.509 mental health and addictions and poverty and 00:16:06.509 --> 00:16:09.309 hunger, all kinds of things. And so it can be 00:16:09.309 --> 00:16:11.090 a bit of a chaotic place. So it has to be somebody 00:16:11.090 --> 00:16:14.029 who can be calm and can be... you know, willing 00:16:14.029 --> 00:16:17.429 to not stand on formality and be prepared to 00:16:17.429 --> 00:16:19.269 kind of roll with things as things go along. 00:16:19.450 --> 00:16:21.269 And it's got to be somebody who really understands 00:16:21.269 --> 00:16:22.850 the Gladue principles and is really committed, 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:25.889 I think, to, you know, reducing and over -incarceration, 00:16:25.990 --> 00:16:28.250 right? I mean, the code is clear that we have 00:16:28.250 --> 00:16:30.009 to do everything we can to avoid incarceration 00:16:30.009 --> 00:16:32.210 where appropriate. There are times when I sentence 00:16:32.210 --> 00:16:34.669 people to further jail, but, you know, I recognize 00:16:34.669 --> 00:16:36.850 that it should be the last resort for me, the 00:16:36.850 --> 00:16:39.129 very last resort for me, right? And it sometimes 00:16:39.129 --> 00:16:41.710 means taking a risk on somebody that you think, 00:16:41.730 --> 00:16:44.039 like, you know, It's not to say that there aren't 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.860 risks of further offenses, but... How serious 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:48.919 is the risk of harm to the community or individuals 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:52.159 in the community? I don't expect that people 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:54.000 are going to walk out of my court and never commit 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:57.340 another offense, right? And I remind myself, 00:16:57.419 --> 00:16:59.700 for me, that, you know, like, okay, so let's 00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:02.600 say I have somebody today and my option is do 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:05.279 I sentence them to no time in jail or six months 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:07.599 in jail? Well, what's going to change if I release 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.140 them now or in six months' time? It's six months 00:17:11.140 --> 00:17:12.960 that the community will not have, you know, they 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:15.140 won't have access to the community and won't 00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:17.059 be out there. But will anything change in their 00:17:17.059 --> 00:17:19.000 lives? And so for me, it's how can I make an 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:21.000 impact and encourage them to make changes in 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:23.700 their lives? And how can I try and put supports 00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:27.559 in place to help people actually, as Emma was 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:29.880 saying, Emma Hayden, the Crown was saying, you 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.339 know, that that will really help folks do the 00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:33.779 things we want to do, protect the community, 00:17:34.019 --> 00:17:36.140 make some positive changes in their lives and 00:17:36.140 --> 00:17:38.980 move forward in a more positive way. You know, 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.119 I think people self -select in some ways to come 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.519 to Gladue Court in terms of personality. But 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:45.940 it's a challenge because we also sit quite a 00:17:45.940 --> 00:17:48.559 few days now. So it's an ongoing process that 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.799 we have to keep people in there. I mean, the 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.400 judges. And you spoke about positive change, 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:56.019 Justice Chamberlain. And I wanted to ask everybody 00:17:56.019 --> 00:17:58.599 what your own experience with the Gladue Courts 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.099 has been like over time. You know, have people 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:03.559 have given good feedback about the Gladue Courts? 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:07.039 Have there been criticisms? So maybe, Emma, we 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.089 could start with you. with that question if you 00:18:09.089 --> 00:18:12.190 feel comfortable. It's an interesting question 00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:15.809 to answer. So one of the things that we do in 00:18:15.809 --> 00:18:17.589 the Gladue Court, and this is something that 00:18:17.589 --> 00:18:21.970 is largely driven in some ways by Crown policy, 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:25.309 is diversion. And so when we're talking about, 00:18:25.309 --> 00:18:28.910 you know, specific change for people and ways 00:18:28.910 --> 00:18:32.309 that we're kind of building on restorative justice, 00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:34.730 this is one of the options that is available 00:18:34.730 --> 00:18:37.009 to Crowns. And there are certain offences that 00:18:37.009 --> 00:18:41.130 we can divert. And what that means is that the 00:18:41.130 --> 00:18:44.250 person goes essentially back into the hands of 00:18:44.250 --> 00:18:45.890 the Indigenous community. And it's something 00:18:45.890 --> 00:18:49.789 to address the root causes of their offending, 00:18:49.809 --> 00:18:52.630 help them provide some stability in different 00:18:52.630 --> 00:18:55.390 areas. areas of life, help them reconnect with 00:18:55.390 --> 00:18:58.329 the Indigenous community. And that's our partner 00:18:58.329 --> 00:19:00.210 in Toronto is through Aboriginal Legal Services. 00:19:00.349 --> 00:19:03.589 So one of the things that I found in terms of 00:19:03.589 --> 00:19:06.089 feedback is that so Aboriginal Legal Services 00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:09.990 does a feast, an honouring ceremony for people 00:19:09.990 --> 00:19:12.170 who have completed the diversion program. In 00:19:12.170 --> 00:19:13.890 fact, it's happening in a couple of days from 00:19:13.890 --> 00:19:20.200 now. And I have gone to that in the past. You 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:22.640 know, you'd think, oh, this is the crown. She's 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:26.440 going to this space where it's people who may 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:28.119 have been involved in the criminal justice system 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:30.579 and Indigenous peoples involved in the criminal 00:19:30.579 --> 00:19:32.740 justice system. I think it's important. I am 00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:35.099 not Indigenous. I am, in fact, a first generation 00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:38.160 Canadian. But going into that space and being 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.359 able to, again, continue to build and nurture 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.400 those relationships that have been created that's 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:45.980 been some really wonderful feedback is to go 00:19:45.980 --> 00:19:48.839 into that honoring ceremony and see people that 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:51.359 i'd only ever seen in court before and see them 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:54.640 in a completely different um in a different circumstance 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.460 i i'm always impressed by i think the difference 00:19:58.460 --> 00:20:01.220 we have in reaction to folks whether it's whether 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:04.579 you're sentencing them or the fact that we really 00:20:04.579 --> 00:20:08.140 try to connect with folks and not just lecture 00:20:08.140 --> 00:20:10.160 them about what they've done wrong and look at 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.859 their record, but also appreciate their backgrounds 00:20:12.859 --> 00:20:14.539 and the struggles that they've had, that they've 00:20:14.539 --> 00:20:17.759 faced in their lives. And really kind of honor 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:20.119 and respect that, you know, as an individual, 00:20:20.339 --> 00:20:22.180 they've had their struggles. But what brought 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:24.240 them here was a lot of the struggles that were 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.259 imposed upon them by their circumstances and, 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:29.640 you know, by racism and by colonialism and by 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.019 the Indian residential school programs that have 00:20:32.019 --> 00:20:34.420 devastated families and communities. And now 00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:37.099 we expect folks to come. before us and to have 00:20:37.099 --> 00:20:39.359 everything together. And so, you know, I think 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:43.140 when you can respectfully talk about their past 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:45.559 and what brought them here and acknowledge that 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:47.380 they have every reason to be angry and they have 00:20:47.380 --> 00:20:50.140 every reason to feel, you know, the loss that 00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:52.519 they feel, but, you know, that you're encouraging 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:54.519 them to find a healthier way to deal with it. 00:20:54.579 --> 00:20:56.839 You see the eyes light up a little differently. 00:20:57.519 --> 00:20:59.160 And we have a lot of folks who struggle with 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.859 drug addiction. And right now, we've had the 00:21:01.859 --> 00:21:03.940 scourge of fentanyl on our streets where folks 00:21:03.940 --> 00:21:08.720 are dying from fentanyl overdoses. I keep a naloxone 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:11.940 kit on my desk with me. And when I hear that 00:21:11.940 --> 00:21:14.380 folks have used fentanyl and they've been in 00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:16.559 custody, I tell them, I say, you know, right 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:18.880 now that you haven't used because you've been 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:20.559 in custody for a period of time is when you're 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:22.920 at the highest risk for an overdose. And so I 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.180 hold up my naloxone kit and I say, I want you 00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:27.759 to be safe. I have... seen too many names of 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.339 people who we've lost in our community because 00:21:30.339 --> 00:21:33.680 of addictions and i want you to be safe be around 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:36.440 people get an alloxone kit use go to safe injection 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:39.000 sites i'm not saying i know you're going to use 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.160 and you i know you told me you want to make changes 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.240 but if you don't please be safe and there's a 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:46.819 difference in how people react and you can tell 00:21:46.819 --> 00:21:50.299 that it's um They sense that you're not just 00:21:50.299 --> 00:21:52.480 there to impose your sentence, but you're also 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:54.819 saying, you know, I mean that I want you to make 00:21:54.819 --> 00:21:56.759 some changes and I care about where you're going 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.819 from here. And so to me, I think that those kinds 00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:01.880 of impacts and to be honest, I felt it coming 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:04.240 back that at times when I've been away, I've 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.490 come back and people are like. We miss you. Where 00:22:06.490 --> 00:22:09.029 have you been? And so that relationship that 00:22:09.029 --> 00:22:10.670 you build, it's a community that we're building 00:22:10.670 --> 00:22:12.529 in a way, because folks in some ways have lost 00:22:12.529 --> 00:22:14.470 the connection to their community. And we're 00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:15.829 trying to build that community in the court. 00:22:15.910 --> 00:22:17.890 And I think that's one of the things we do well. 00:22:18.029 --> 00:22:20.650 And I see it and feel it. I mean, it's anecdotal. 00:22:20.690 --> 00:22:22.890 I don't know. But my sense is that we get that 00:22:22.890 --> 00:22:24.630 a lot more, I think, in our courts than I would 00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:27.210 in other courts where I've seen. That's amazing. 00:22:27.569 --> 00:22:30.609 And I was wondering, for Jonathan and Lissandra, 00:22:30.950 --> 00:22:34.089 do you have anything else to add? Yeah, I can 00:22:34.089 --> 00:22:36.769 say from a client perspective, it's very often 00:22:36.769 --> 00:22:39.769 that the duty counsel lawyers will be speaking 00:22:39.769 --> 00:22:43.410 with clients and they talk about how much they 00:22:43.410 --> 00:22:46.130 like LeDoux Court or they want to go there. When 00:22:46.130 --> 00:22:48.289 they're in custody, they get the option if they 00:22:48.289 --> 00:22:50.890 want to appear in court by video or in person. 00:22:51.089 --> 00:22:53.210 And it's very common that they'll actually say 00:22:53.210 --> 00:22:55.750 they want to come in person because they like 00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:58.630 the space. Some of them actually feel safe there. 00:22:58.789 --> 00:23:01.529 They feel safe to open up about what they're 00:23:01.529 --> 00:23:04.519 struggling with. whether it's directly... in 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:07.039 custody what they're facing or you know just 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:10.000 kind of in general with their life and they also 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.319 enjoy being able to just sit in a circle with 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:15.579 everyone just having some general conversation 00:23:15.579 --> 00:23:19.259 they get some snacks so for them it's really 00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:21.859 the highlight of their week and we can tell that 00:23:21.859 --> 00:23:24.500 it makes such a big difference for their overall 00:23:24.500 --> 00:23:26.960 well -being and it just gives them something 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.039 to look forward to because you know this is obviously 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:32.099 a very low point in their life they're dealing 00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:34.640 with A lot of different things. So when they 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.359 feel that they can get support from anywhere, 00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:40.400 from different people, especially different positions 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.240 in the criminal justice system, it definitely 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.819 makes a really big difference to them. And Jonathan, 00:23:47.019 --> 00:23:48.640 last but not least, do you have anything to add? 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.660 Yeah, I think it's important to know that courts 00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:55.319 have historically been sites of injustice for 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.380 Indigenous people. They're not been a place that 00:23:58.380 --> 00:24:01.180 people... want to go. It's a place that people 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:04.279 were taken to. There's a history of wrongful 00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:08.240 convictions of Indigenous people, racism. I mean, 00:24:08.299 --> 00:24:10.859 courts are not pleasant places. And they're hard 00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:14.200 for everyone if you're charged. Let's not make 00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:16.980 it sound like it's wonderful. But if you're Indigenous, 00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:19.619 it's really hard. And one of the things that 00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:21.779 we've seen since the Gladue Court started in 00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:25.079 its very earliest stages when It was set up just 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:27.460 like any other court, but it was just run a bit 00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:31.019 differently. To pick up on Sandra's point, clients 00:24:31.019 --> 00:24:34.240 felt a sense of, I'm being listened to here. 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:37.960 You know, when someone's being sentenced, the 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:40.359 judge is required to say, do you have anything 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:43.559 you want to say? Judges have to say that. And 00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:46.440 often clients will just say nothing. They won't 00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:48.059 say anything. Or their lawyers sometimes will 00:24:48.059 --> 00:24:49.539 tell them, don't say anything, just get this 00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:52.099 over with. In Gladue Court, since it started, 00:24:53.420 --> 00:24:56.859 That was a very serious question. And people 00:24:56.859 --> 00:25:00.579 were listened to. And people talk about the fact 00:25:00.579 --> 00:25:04.500 that they felt listened to and they felt heard. 00:25:04.579 --> 00:25:07.119 We've just finished an evaluation of the new 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:10.880 Gladue Court, which will be coming out officially 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.900 very soon. And the clients speak about the fact 00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:17.400 that it's unlike other places they've been. The 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:19.900 Gladue Courts are not restoring the faith of 00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:23.539 Indigenous people in the legal system. That would 00:25:23.539 --> 00:25:25.460 be way too much. What they're doing is they're 00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:29.359 creating a space within a system that has historically 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:32.440 not been welcoming and not been kind and not 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:36.180 been fair. It's changed that balance so people 00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:38.740 can go into that room on that day and feel better. 00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:42.039 You know, throughout all of your answers today, 00:25:42.220 --> 00:25:44.720 we've mentioned things like a welcoming space, 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:47.960 community and feeling heard. And just jumping 00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:50.920 off from Jonathan's last answer, in your opinion, 00:25:51.579 --> 00:25:54.059 What is the connection between our justice system 00:25:54.059 --> 00:25:58.160 today and the concept of reconciliation? And 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.039 I know this might be a very big question, but 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:02.759 I was wanting to hear all of your thoughts on 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:06.299 that, if anyone would like to go first. Listen, 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:10.160 I tell folks all the time that we're doing what 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.500 we can to try and make it. a more welcoming and 00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:15.759 a better place for folks to come through given 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:17.319 that they don't have a choice they have to be 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:19.579 there so as jonathan said we're trying to make 00:26:19.579 --> 00:26:22.299 it a a better space and a better experience for 00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:24.640 them but i don't kid myself right the reality 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:27.400 is that uh you know i'm not imposing indigenous 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:29.920 law or using indigenous traditions or indigenous 00:26:30.589 --> 00:26:32.769 culture, this is still the criminal code. It's 00:26:32.769 --> 00:26:35.829 still colonial law that I'm imposing. And that's 00:26:35.829 --> 00:26:37.990 the tool that I have, unfortunately, right? The 00:26:37.990 --> 00:26:40.730 Supreme Court told us, do it differently. The 00:26:40.730 --> 00:26:42.930 Truth and Reconciliation Commission has given 00:26:42.930 --> 00:26:46.309 us recommendations on what we can do to deal 00:26:46.309 --> 00:26:49.549 with reconciliation. But I haven't been given 00:26:49.549 --> 00:26:52.269 any new tools. I still have the code, and that's 00:26:52.269 --> 00:26:54.650 what I have to impose. And the arguments I hear 00:26:54.650 --> 00:26:56.890 are still about denunciation, deterrence, and 00:26:56.890 --> 00:27:00.430 separation from the community. We're not using 00:27:00.430 --> 00:27:02.390 Indigenous law, Indigenous tradition. So I think 00:27:02.390 --> 00:27:06.089 we have a long way to go as a society, but that's 00:27:06.089 --> 00:27:09.289 out of my hands. So I think what we do as part 00:27:09.289 --> 00:27:12.450 of my journey to reconciliation is create a space 00:27:12.450 --> 00:27:15.430 in our world here in Toronto and the Gladue Courts 00:27:15.430 --> 00:27:19.849 to make it a better space for people to have 00:27:19.849 --> 00:27:21.609 a different experience with the criminal justice 00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:24.289 system. Thank you so much for sharing that, Justice 00:27:24.289 --> 00:27:26.410 Chamberlain. You know, a lot of what this podcast 00:27:26.410 --> 00:27:29.410 is for is to help people take a first step to 00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:31.710 learn about these concepts and these places that 00:27:31.710 --> 00:27:34.150 exist. And now I actually want to talk a little 00:27:34.150 --> 00:27:36.470 bit more about the new Toronto Courthouse, which 00:27:36.470 --> 00:27:39.069 is downtown. And we all mentioned that it's at 00:27:39.069 --> 00:27:41.670 10 Armory Street. And I actually had the pleasure 00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:43.390 of attending one time for a tour. And it's a 00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:45.809 really lovely building. And there's a lot there 00:27:45.809 --> 00:27:47.289 for people to see. So I definitely encourage 00:27:47.289 --> 00:27:50.809 people to go. Just as a general sense, what is 00:27:50.809 --> 00:27:55.099 different about the new Toronto Courthouse? What 00:27:55.099 --> 00:27:57.119 is different from other courthouses that we might 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.079 see in Toronto or elsewhere in Ontario? Jonathan's 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:02.640 going to tell you about the Indigenous Learning 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:05.859 Centre, because that's something that's different 00:28:05.859 --> 00:28:08.880 at the 10 Armory Street Courthouse location. 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:13.440 So the Indigenous Learning Centre is on the first 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:17.220 floor of the new Toronto Courthouse, and within 00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:20.920 it, it contains the Grandmother Buffalo Lodge, 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:25.099 which is a round... lodge room, which has ventilation, 00:28:25.180 --> 00:28:28.460 so it allows people to smudge, burn sacred medicines. 00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:32.720 And it's got artwork, it's got sacred pieces, 00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:35.759 and the space is used for all sorts of things. 00:28:36.059 --> 00:28:39.119 We encourage people who want to learn about Indigenous 00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:42.700 laws or traditions, they can get in touch with 00:28:42.700 --> 00:28:45.440 Aboriginal Legal Services and we can set up training 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:49.049 sessions. A lot of organizations come into the 00:28:49.049 --> 00:28:52.069 lodge to do training. The Ministry of the Attorney 00:28:52.069 --> 00:28:54.470 General does training there. Justice Chamberlain 00:28:54.470 --> 00:28:56.950 spoke about ceremonies. We do a lot of ceremonies 00:28:56.950 --> 00:29:00.509 in the lodge. We have speakers that come to the 00:29:00.509 --> 00:29:03.910 lodge. It's a really exciting place. We're just 00:29:03.910 --> 00:29:07.170 revitalizing our outreach and publicity. So we're 00:29:07.170 --> 00:29:09.710 going to have stuff online about what's going 00:29:09.710 --> 00:29:13.450 on. I know that this podcast is sponsored by 00:29:13.450 --> 00:29:17.029 OGEN and we're working with OGEN to get more. 00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:21.029 and more teachers involved with it. So it's a 00:29:21.029 --> 00:29:27.109 chance for people to learn about Indigenous people 00:29:27.109 --> 00:29:29.250 and the legal system in a place that's other 00:29:29.250 --> 00:29:31.809 than a courtroom. And it makes sense in some 00:29:31.809 --> 00:29:34.490 ways because a lot of school trips, you know, 00:29:34.609 --> 00:29:38.829 let's go to court. And so people, the school 00:29:38.829 --> 00:29:40.569 comes and people get off the bus and they run 00:29:40.569 --> 00:29:42.410 upstairs and they go to court and they go, oh, 00:29:42.410 --> 00:29:44.710 I saw this case. I said, oh, I was charged with 00:29:44.710 --> 00:29:47.440 this. And this is a chance to... see another 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:50.579 part of the system. And so we're very proud of 00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:54.299 the lodge. And we just really just opened this 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:57.940 summer, last summer, 2024. But it's already been 00:29:57.940 --> 00:30:00.700 really busy and really used. And we're very excited 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:03.380 about where it might be going. I guess my final 00:30:03.380 --> 00:30:05.940 question is, we've talked about Gladue Court 00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:08.819 and the Indigenous Learning Centre. But what 00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:10.960 are your final thoughts on what these spaces 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:16.319 mean for people? i think it's it's really important 00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:20.400 um again it goes back to the clients the the 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.539 indigenous accused because when we look at the 00:30:23.539 --> 00:30:25.559 ones that are coming before the court especially 00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:28.680 the ones who are repeatedly going before the 00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:32.000 court They've had some very, very difficult and 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.640 very traumatic background experiences. They've 00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.420 experienced some sort of victimization in their 00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:41.039 life. And again, this goes back to the history 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:44.099 of colonization, you know, the 60 scoop residential 00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:46.660 school. So there's something that's happened 00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:50.720 to them that's led them to go down a path that 00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.819 isn't so great. And a lot of the times it's not 00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:56.460 because they want to, it's because it's a product 00:30:56.460 --> 00:31:01.019 of their circumstances. The really great part 00:31:01.019 --> 00:31:04.259 about Gladue Court is because there is this focus 00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:07.940 on restorative justice, it's a court that doesn't 00:31:07.940 --> 00:31:12.019 solely focus on punishing offenders. So it looks 00:31:12.019 --> 00:31:15.460 at how can we involve the community? How can 00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:17.779 we connect them with different organizations 00:31:17.779 --> 00:31:21.119 like Aboriginal Legal Services? How can we address 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:24.640 the root cause of why they're coming before the 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:27.680 court? And it gives these clients a sense of 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.680 hope. It helps them to connect with people and 00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:34.319 organizations that they may not have been aware 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:36.940 of before coming to court, or they may not have 00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:39.400 even had the capabilities of being able to do 00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:41.819 that. If they didn't have a phone, they don't 00:31:41.819 --> 00:31:45.599 have internet access to find out what those resources 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:50.480 are. So it really does create this holistic outlook 00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.420 for them. And it really gives them something 00:31:53.420 --> 00:31:56.700 to kind of hold on to, to have some hope and 00:31:56.700 --> 00:32:00.460 to understand that. The court in itself is aware 00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:02.900 of what they've experienced. It's being taken 00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:05.519 into consideration. And while, of course, that 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:08.380 does have to be balanced with different principles 00:32:08.380 --> 00:32:11.480 and, you know, at the same time, public safety, 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:14.539 there is a level that will make sure that we 00:32:14.539 --> 00:32:17.579 can do what we can for them to get the help that 00:32:17.579 --> 00:32:22.279 they need. I'd like to just, we've talked a lot, 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:24.380 obviously, about accused people, because that's 00:32:24.380 --> 00:32:26.859 an important part and talking about offenders 00:32:26.859 --> 00:32:28.619 and talking about the people who are coming in 00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:31.119 charge before the court. But in these spaces 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:35.099 where we have these Indigenous supports, where 00:32:35.099 --> 00:32:38.339 we have these resources, like the feather, like 00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:41.160 the ability to smudge, like workers who are there, 00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:44.880 elders, those kinds of things. for me as a Crown, 00:32:45.099 --> 00:32:47.519 those are really important as well for witnesses 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:52.240 and victims or complainants of offenses too. 00:32:52.460 --> 00:32:55.859 And so, you know, obviously the Criminal Code 00:32:55.859 --> 00:32:59.039 talks about sentencing in 718 .2e. There are 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:00.859 sentencing principles that relate specifically 00:33:00.859 --> 00:33:05.700 to Indigenous. victims as well. And victims deserve 00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:08.400 to have those supports in the courtroom space 00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:11.039 because Indigenous victims and Indigenous witnesses 00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:14.819 have gone through those same histories that Indigenous 00:33:14.819 --> 00:33:18.059 accused people have had. And so those are also 00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:22.569 very troubling. uncomfortable and traumatic spaces 00:33:22.569 --> 00:33:26.130 for witnesses and victims to be in as well. And 00:33:26.130 --> 00:33:28.269 I found that, you know, one of the things that 00:33:28.269 --> 00:33:29.869 we're doing in terms of building the relationships 00:33:29.869 --> 00:33:31.910 with accused people who are coming before the 00:33:31.910 --> 00:33:34.029 court is we're also building those relationships 00:33:34.029 --> 00:33:37.650 with the people who may be victims of crime. 00:33:38.829 --> 00:33:41.309 One of the things that we do as well in the courtroom 00:33:41.309 --> 00:33:44.809 is sentencing circles. And Lissandra kind of 00:33:44.809 --> 00:33:46.450 talked a little bit about, you know, doing these 00:33:46.450 --> 00:33:48.329 sentencing principles and sentencing approaches 00:33:48.329 --> 00:33:50.750 that look at people more holistically and deal 00:33:50.750 --> 00:33:53.690 with the roots of offending. You know, when we 00:33:53.690 --> 00:33:55.650 are in a sentencing circle, sometimes you will 00:33:55.650 --> 00:33:58.630 have victims of crime who are participating in 00:33:58.630 --> 00:34:01.039 the sentencing circle and dealing very. you know, 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:04.500 in that very micro environment of that one relationship 00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:08.239 with that one person in that circle talking about, 00:34:08.300 --> 00:34:10.960 you know, restoring the balance in that relationship 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:14.860 and restoring respect for that person who's there. 00:34:15.420 --> 00:34:17.380 Can I just jump in for a minute? Yeah, I just, 00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:20.159 the other thing I would just add is that I think, 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.039 you know, we often think of reconciliation in 00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:24.920 terms of what can we change and what can we do 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:27.699 to make it a better space for people. And I think 00:34:28.030 --> 00:34:30.349 One of the things I said in my swearing -in ceremony 00:34:30.349 --> 00:34:33.449 from my experience in Gladue Court and the work 00:34:33.449 --> 00:34:35.530 that we did in Gladue Court, I think we have 00:34:35.530 --> 00:34:37.269 a lot more to bring and to teach the criminal 00:34:37.269 --> 00:34:40.769 justice system. And I think that there are a 00:34:40.769 --> 00:34:43.130 lot of lessons there that can be learned. I can 00:34:43.130 --> 00:34:45.090 tell you that as a judge, I'm a different judge 00:34:45.090 --> 00:34:47.429 in other courts than I am because of the work 00:34:47.429 --> 00:34:49.329 that I've done in the Gladue Court. How I approach 00:34:49.329 --> 00:34:51.949 other cases has changed because of the work that 00:34:51.949 --> 00:34:54.150 I've done in Gladue Court. And so I think there 00:34:54.150 --> 00:34:56.889 are learnings and teachings and gifts there that 00:34:56.889 --> 00:34:59.389 we bring. to the criminal justice system that 00:34:59.389 --> 00:35:01.349 aren't, I think, yet appreciated yet. I think 00:35:01.349 --> 00:35:03.110 we're getting there. We're starting to learn. 00:35:03.150 --> 00:35:05.309 We're starting to see it. But I think there's, 00:35:05.309 --> 00:35:09.670 you know, it's a movement and a change that I 00:35:09.670 --> 00:35:13.289 think is really big and really significant that 00:35:13.289 --> 00:35:15.369 I don't think everybody's caught on yet. But 00:35:15.369 --> 00:35:18.090 as we get more converts to what we're doing, 00:35:18.150 --> 00:35:19.690 I think we're seeing some of that spreading. 00:35:19.789 --> 00:35:22.030 And I think, you know, we can change the system 00:35:22.030 --> 00:35:23.809 and make it a better place for the work that 00:35:23.809 --> 00:35:26.929 we're trying to do. I want to get back again, 00:35:27.070 --> 00:35:30.210 because I keep saying I read this case, back 00:35:30.210 --> 00:35:32.269 to the Gladue case. And I think one of the things 00:35:32.269 --> 00:35:36.210 that the Supreme Court said is that the overrepresentation, 00:35:36.250 --> 00:35:39.170 the mass incarceration of Indigenous people is 00:35:39.170 --> 00:35:42.090 a crisis in the Canadian criminal justice system. 00:35:42.150 --> 00:35:44.530 And what's significant about that is the crisis 00:35:44.530 --> 00:35:47.349 is not that Indigenous people commit crime. Lots 00:35:47.349 --> 00:35:50.289 of people commit crime. The crisis is the way 00:35:50.289 --> 00:35:54.260 that... The legal system has responded to Indigenous 00:35:54.260 --> 00:35:57.300 people who commit crime is to disproportionately 00:35:57.300 --> 00:36:01.119 put people in jail. And the legal system, the 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:04.420 criminal legal system itself, is a source of 00:36:04.420 --> 00:36:06.619 discrimination towards Indigenous people. And 00:36:06.619 --> 00:36:09.599 that's not just, it is my feeling, but it's also 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:11.880 the feeling of the Supreme Court. They've said 00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:14.320 that on a number of occasions. And so what this 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:17.550 court... tries to do. We're not doing favors. 00:36:17.889 --> 00:36:19.670 It's not like, oh, we're doing something special 00:36:19.670 --> 00:36:21.630 for Indigenous people. What we're trying to do 00:36:21.630 --> 00:36:25.889 is remedy the damage that has been done. When 00:36:25.889 --> 00:36:30.150 the TRC in their 94 calls to action, they divide 00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:33.530 them into two parts. One is legacy. How do we 00:36:33.530 --> 00:36:36.400 do with the legacy? of residential schools and 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:39.480 then reconciliation. Reconciliation happens after 00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:42.940 legacy. All the justice recommendations are in 00:36:42.940 --> 00:36:45.900 the legacy part. We have to fix the harm that 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.860 was done from the legal system. Ultimately, it's 00:36:50.860 --> 00:36:52.940 Aboriginal Legal Services' position that where 00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:56.059 we eventually want to get to is distinct, discrete, 00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:59.599 Indigenous. justice systems that's the answer 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:02.280 we are but we're not there yet and we're not 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:03.699 going to be there tomorrow we're not going to 00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:06.739 be there next month or next year you know it's 00:37:06.739 --> 00:37:09.139 going to take a while and in the meantime there 00:37:09.139 --> 00:37:11.980 are many people many indigenous people who are 00:37:11.980 --> 00:37:14.059 caught up in this system and we have to do what 00:37:14.059 --> 00:37:19.079 we can to make that experience a better one and 00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:21.880 better for them so that we create safer communities 00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:24.039 and we don't perpetuate the discrimination that 00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:27.340 too often people have been subject to That's 00:37:27.340 --> 00:37:30.300 another amazing answer. And I want to thank everybody 00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:32.639 for being so open and candid with your answers 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:35.719 today. I did have one extra question that came 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:37.619 to the top of my mind before we end off here. 00:37:37.820 --> 00:37:40.199 And this one is for our listeners, especially 00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:42.960 for young people who might be interested in a 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.300 career in law or in advocacy. So I was wondering, 00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:49.429 what's the best piece of advice? you can give 00:37:49.429 --> 00:37:51.489 them if they are passionate about issues like 00:37:51.489 --> 00:37:55.110 Indigenous people's rights or other social community 00:37:55.110 --> 00:37:59.349 issues that might be present in Canada. Follow 00:37:59.349 --> 00:38:01.690 your heart, find some mentors, find people to 00:38:01.690 --> 00:38:03.829 work with who are doing their good work, help 00:38:03.829 --> 00:38:05.750 them out, see what they need, listen to what 00:38:05.750 --> 00:38:09.889 it is that they need and they want from me. Yeah, 00:38:09.909 --> 00:38:14.460 I would say try and get some teachings. So the 00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:16.679 things that have been most impactful and meaningful 00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:19.840 to me and still are meaningful to me is spending 00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.380 time with elders and traditional teachers. And 00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:25.960 you can do that anywhere. Wherever you are, there 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:28.559 will be teachers. So that's one thing that I 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:30.460 think is really important because you'll understand 00:38:30.460 --> 00:38:35.940 that Indigenous culture has more answers to more 00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:38.559 complex questions. So that's one thing. And the 00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:41.900 second thing is, if you're interested in justice, 00:38:43.070 --> 00:38:45.530 Maybe law. There are other ways that you can 00:38:45.530 --> 00:38:48.130 achieve justice. So don't feel that you only 00:38:48.130 --> 00:38:52.469 have to think about law. Justice Chamberlain 00:38:52.469 --> 00:38:54.889 and Emma talked about the work that they did 00:38:54.889 --> 00:38:58.130 in other areas before they came to law, and those 00:38:58.130 --> 00:39:01.670 are also about creating a just world. So if those 00:39:01.670 --> 00:39:05.190 things matter to you, find something that works 00:39:05.190 --> 00:39:08.650 for you, that you're passionate about, and you 00:39:08.650 --> 00:39:11.480 can probably find ways to... turn that into something 00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:14.199 that's going to be relevant to justice. And if 00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:15.800 you're interested in Indigenous people, justice 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:18.960 for Indigenous people. Amazing. How about you, 00:39:18.980 --> 00:39:22.900 Emma? So I'm going to assume that the students 00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:24.719 who are listening to this podcast are in many 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:27.639 different places across Ontario. We're obviously, 00:39:27.739 --> 00:39:30.000 all of us coming to you from Toronto, and we 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:33.659 have a very specific... Indigenous community 00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:35.980 and urban Indigenous community of people who 00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:37.920 come from many different places across Turtle 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:41.579 Island. But it may be that your listeners are 00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:46.440 people who live on or close to reserve communities. 00:39:46.780 --> 00:39:48.699 You know, learn about your reserve community 00:39:48.699 --> 00:39:52.199 that's near you. Sometimes you may be able to 00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:54.079 access the Friendship Centre. Those are places 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:55.940 where you could start making these connections 00:39:55.940 --> 00:39:59.400 and hopefully participate in ceremony. I will 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.500 echo what Jonathan said, you know, Participating 00:40:02.500 --> 00:40:04.800 in things like sweats have been one of the most 00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:08.280 impactful and incredible things for me working 00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:12.059 in this area to be able to kind of work through 00:40:12.059 --> 00:40:14.940 and process and understand the teachings in a 00:40:14.940 --> 00:40:17.860 very deeply personal way for me. And then I carry 00:40:17.860 --> 00:40:21.119 that forward with me in my practice. Last but 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.380 not least, Lissandra, how about you? My advice 00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:26.840 would also be to get involved with community 00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:30.800 organizations, to do the volunteer work, because 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:34.420 it makes such a significant difference to you 00:40:34.420 --> 00:40:37.099 as a person, to help you grow as a person, to 00:40:37.099 --> 00:40:40.340 help you learn, to help you figure out what you 00:40:40.340 --> 00:40:43.829 want to do, what you're passionate about. But 00:40:43.829 --> 00:40:46.329 it also gives you an opportunity to learn right 00:40:46.329 --> 00:40:49.429 from the people who directly work with the individuals 00:40:49.429 --> 00:40:52.329 that need the help the most. And you learn so 00:40:52.329 --> 00:40:54.510 much from them. And those are the experiences 00:40:54.510 --> 00:40:58.349 that I hold very close to my heart as I was growing 00:40:58.349 --> 00:41:00.929 up and thinking about going into law school. 00:41:01.130 --> 00:41:04.170 They made a really big impact on me. And they 00:41:04.170 --> 00:41:07.179 also taught me skills that... I use every day 00:41:07.179 --> 00:41:09.840 now being a duty counsel lawyer, and I wouldn't 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:12.739 be able to be where I am today or provide the 00:41:12.739 --> 00:41:15.280 level of service I can to my clients without 00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:19.199 having that experience. And that's all really 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:21.960 good advice. And I want to thank you all once 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:24.519 again for being a part of today's episode. To 00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:27.239 Justice Chamberlain, Jonathan, Lissandra, Emma, 00:41:27.380 --> 00:41:29.900 thank you so much for being so open and candid 00:41:29.900 --> 00:41:32.570 with your answers. I do think and I hope that 00:41:32.570 --> 00:41:34.610 listeners who do listen to this episode will 00:41:34.610 --> 00:41:38.210 be inspired to learn more, not just about Gladdu 00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:40.510 Court, but also about issues surrounding restorative 00:41:40.510 --> 00:41:43.329 justice, other support systems that are in place 00:41:43.329 --> 00:41:45.909 and organizations like Aboriginal Legal Services. 00:41:46.170 --> 00:41:48.670 So apart from that, thank you so much once again 00:41:48.670 --> 00:41:50.309 for joining me here today. It's been a great 00:41:50.309 --> 00:41:53.269 one. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks 00:41:53.269 --> 00:41:56.940 for having me. It was fun. Thank you for tapping 00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:59.960 into this episode of Law Syrup. On the next episode, 00:42:00.099 --> 00:42:02.679 we take a look at the Ontario rental market with 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:05.320 Douglas Kwan from the Advocacy Centre for Tenants 00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:08.360 Ontario. Law Syrup is produced by me, Herman 00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:10.920 Wong, and the Ontario Justice Education Network. 00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:14.000 For more information and for accompanying resources, 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.900 check out ojen .ca and our show notes. See you 00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:18.360 next time.