Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk
with special guests about hot topics in Canadian
law. This podcast is a co -production with the
Ontario Justice Education Network, also known
as OGEN. I'm your host, Herman Wong. Let's tap
it. Before we begin, please know that this show
is not intended to be legal advice or a replacement
for a legal representative. Hey, everyone, and
welcome back to Law Syrup. I am so excited to
have the show come back, and I'm thrilled to
share with you my conversations with some truly
amazing guests this year. To kick off our second
season, I held a panel discussion on the topic
of Gladue Court. What is Gladue Court? What happens
there? And how can we learn more about it and
other resources that are available to the public?
To help explore this topic, joining our panel
is Justice Andre Chamberlain, Jonathan Rudin
from Aboriginal Legal Services, Crown Attorney
Emma Hayden, and Duty Counsel Lysandra Moreno.
Here's what we discussed. Hey, everyone. I want
to start things off by saying that it's incredible
to have everyone that's present here on the episode
today to speak about Gladue Courts. And we have
a very stacked panel here. So thank you so much
for taking the time out of your busy days to
share your thoughts and your work within this
space. I believe that this topic is one that
many people in the public are interested in.
And some people might have heard of Gladue Court,
but might not know exactly what it entails or
what the process is like compared to other court
settings. So I think today's episode is going
to be a really engaging one. Before we get started,
how about we all go around and we tell each other
who we are, where we work, and what your position
is. So Justice Chamberlain, how about we start
with you first? Sure, thank you. And thank you
for inviting me. I'm honored to be here. My name
is Andre Chamberlain. I'm a judge of the Ontario
Court of Justice. I've been a judge. I was appointed
in 2019. Before that, I was a federal crown,
and I've been involved with the Gladue Court,
I think, since about 2000. three, I think, or
so. I am also a member of the Innu community
from Meshlawietch in Quebec. My mother was a
residential school survivor, and I am a 60 scoop
kid, so that's kind of what I bring, and I happen
to be the lead for the Gladue Court in Toronto
at the Ontario Court of Justice here at 10 Armory.
Emma, how about you? Thanks, Herman. Thanks as
well for having me be part of this podcast and
this panel. It's a real honor. I'm an assistant
crown attorney in Toronto. I've been a crown
for 15 years. I've done all of my practice in
Toronto before we moved to our new courthouse
at 10 Armory Street. I was mostly at College
Park. While most of my career has been spent
either being the lead crown for my office at
the Gladue Court and also doing a very significant
trial work, there was a period of time in 2017
and 2018, I was counsel for the province of Ontario
for the national inquiry into missing and murdered
Indigenous women and girls. And so represented
the province at the family hearings and other
hearings that were part of the national inquiry.
Thanks. Amazing. Thank you. And Lissandra, how
about you tell us a little bit about yourself?
And thank you very much, Herman, for having me.
So I'm with Duty Council. So Duty Council provides
free legal services to those who are unrepresented.
I've been in this position for about seven months.
And before that, I was in private practice as
a criminal defense lawyer, where my practice
mostly focused on representing Indigenous accused.
And now as Duty Council, I'm one of the Duty
Council that staffs the Gladue Court. And I'm
also a Métis. Ojibwe. And last but not least,
Jonathan. I'm Jonathan Rudin. I'm the Special
Projects Director at Aboriginal Legal Services.
That's our English name. Our Anishinaabemowin
name is Gikinigwaiwabamatibwewin, which translates
as all those who seek the truth. And that name
was given to us by Elder Jackie LaVallee. I've
been with Aboriginal Legal Services since it
started in 1990. So yeah, I've been around for
a while. So before we get started on our main
topic, how about we all share what brought us
to a career in the legal profession in the first
place? So Jonathan, how about we start with you
first? Okay, how long is the podcast? Take as
long as you want. That's fine. Okay, well, I
told you the quick version. So I always thought
I would want to be a lawyer until I went to law
school. And then I went to law school and finished
law school and thought, I don't want to be a
lawyer. I didn't enjoy it. So I took about 10
years off to work, do community work. I got my
master's in law, focusing on the charter. I did
a number of projects with regard to Indigenous
people in the legal system. And then in 1990,
there was a posting for a one -month job at setting
up Aboriginal legal services. So I applied and
got the job, and it's been a very long month.
And Justice Chamberlain, what brought you to
the law? You know, I was working in mental health
for years. In my 20s, I worked in group homes
with kids who had psychiatric and emotional difficulties,
and then I worked in an outpatient treatment
center for kids who were dealing with addictions
and addiction issues in their families. I moved
to Toronto, worked at a place called the Gerstein
Center, which is a psychiatric crisis intervention
center, and then was a little burnt out and tired
and decided to go back to school because I hadn't
finished my undergrad degree. And so I went back
and, but at the end of it, I was kind of like,
well, what am I going to do now? I hadn't quite
finished my undergrad. I was still, I'm still
a half credit short of getting my BA, but I decided,
I found out I could apply to some law schools
and I got into Osgoode. So it was really kind
of a spur thing. I was like, you know, I've often
thought about being a lawyer. I didn't talk to
anybody about it because I suspect if I had,
I might not be here now, but I got into law school
and then found myself with a federal crown eventually
to doing some work with family law for a little
bit. And then as a prosecutor. And Emma, how
about you? So funny enough, I have a lot of similarities
to Justice Chamberlain's background. I didn't
think that I ever wanted to be a lawyer. I worked
in public health area, although not so much service
provision like his honor did, more the research
area. And so doing research and policy largely
in the area of harm reduction, safe injection
kits, safe consumption sites, that kind of thing,
heroin prescription. I worked at the Center for
Addiction and Mental Health for a number of years
and did a master's in public health. And then
the time came where I needed to think of a next
step. And the next step was either do a PhD or
go to law school. And so I decided to go to law
school. My plan always from the beginning was
to go into criminal law and to be a crown when
I had done my research. In my master's in public
health, I saw the intersections of people dealing
with mental health and substance use and being
involved in the criminal justice system and everything
else that we call, you know, the social determinants
of health. That's what we talked about in our
research. And so that's always what I wanted
to do. But it was also a little bit of a weird
fluke. I kind of just decided to apply one time
and here we are. And last but not least, Lissandra,
what brought you to the law? So it stemmed from
my Indigenous background. When I went into undergrad,
I didn't know what I wanted to do or what I wanted
to study, but I just knew I wanted something
that would kind of contextualize my experiences
as an Indigenous person. And I had quite a few
family members who were in and out of the system.
So that led me to taking criminology, where I
really started to learn about the... overrepresentation
of Indigenous people in prison. And it just became
a topic that was very passionate to me. I knew
that I wanted to do some kind of work where I
could work directly with Indigenous people and
make impact and change on a personal level, like
a daily kind of change in addition to bigger
changes. And then from there, I just kind of
found my way into law and just felt that getting
into the defense side of things was the perfect
fit for me. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing.
You know, let's talk about what Gladue Court
or Indigenous Peoples Court is in general. So
maybe Jonathan, this is a question for you, but
where exactly did the name Gladue come from?
And what exactly is Gladue Court? In Canada,
we often tend to name things after cases. And
so in 1999, there was a case at the Supreme Court
of Canada. involving Jamie Tannis Gladue. We
pronounce it Gladue. West of Ontario, they pronounce
it Gladue. So I'll just say Gladue, although
I want to be respectful to her family. And this
was a case that interpreted Section 718 .2e of
the Criminal Code, which was enacted in 1996.
And that section says that when sentencing A
person, a judge should look for all alternatives
to incarceration that are reasonable in the circumstances
with particular attention to the circumstances
of Indigenous people. No one knew what that section
meant until 1999 and hence the Gladue decision.
And that's why so many things related to the
sentencing of Indigenous people now come with
the word Gladue attached to it. Would anyone
else like to share? Well, I'll jump in there.
I think I would say it's evolved over time. When
we started back in 2001, and I've been back,
I think I was back in 2001 when I started as
I'm thinking back now that, you know, we were
just in a regular court at Old City Hall. We
had, you know, a few judges who were interested
in starting this and any folks who identified
as Indigenous would come there. And we had crowns
and duty council and federal crowns and staff
from Aboriginal Legal Services who were knowledgeable
and wanted to learn about and to do this kind
of work. And so we kind of started that way,
but then we decided to have operational meetings
monthly. And so we started changing how we do
things, started changing how we approach bail,
how we approach sentencing. And it's evolved
over time to now where we sit in a new courthouse
at 10 Armory Street where we have a courtroom
that has a table that is in a circle. We have
a courtroom that hides the dais where the judge
usually sits and hides the colonial emblems of
the crown. And we all sit at the same level at
the table. We've changed how we do things. You
know, in courts, you'll see, you know, whether
if you've been in court that when the judge comes
in, everybody gets up, all rise. There's an introduction.
Everybody bows to the judge. The judge bows back.
There's a formal introduction. We've done away
with kind of some of those kinds of colonial
trappings of the court because we recognize that
Indigenous folks have struggled and have lost
a lot of faith in the criminal justice system.
And so we wanted to make it more relatable, less
intimidating. So there's different things that
we've done. We've brought food in because we
realized, you know. Hunger and food is an issue.
We have workers. We now bring in some ceremonies.
We do smudging every morning and offer smudging
during the day for folks who wish to smudge with
medicine, with sage and whatnot. We have feathers
available if folks request them for either ceremony
or for oaths. We're very much trying to... come
to build a relationship. And we have a smaller
group of folks involved so that you build relationships
with people, get to know them. So it's not just
they're coming to court and facing the hammer
of the justice system. You start building relationships,
getting to know people and building a better
trust. So I think that's my view, I think, of
how we've changed. I'm sure people have other
perspectives as well. I'm just just on that point
that Justice Chamberlain raised about the relationship
building. I think that's one of the key parts
of what happens in that courtroom. And, you know,
we work in the criminal justice system. We always
think of it as this highly adversarial system,
meaning it's kind of the crown. And then there's
the accused person and the interests are very
different and their positions are going to be
very different. And there isn't much communication
between the two. Crown Attorney despite the fact
that that adversarial system still exists there.
relationships are so important because you trust
what you're going to learn about someone. Sometimes
people are telling you very personal things about
their lives too. And you have to honor that trust
and honor that respect. And being in that court
on a regular basis helps to build those relationships.
For instance, I have relationships that I build
with duty counsel like Lissandra. And that's
really important too, in order for them to be
able to feel comfortable sharing information
about their clients, for instance. And when we
build that relationship, When you build that
respect and you honour people in that space,
making it a little bit less uncomfortable for
people who have had discomfort and pain and trauma
in the criminal justice system and outside of
it. We're not only making the lives of the people
who are coming into that court better. I'm doing
my job as a Crown, which is, you know, helping
ensure public safety, community respect, community
safety and all those things. That's what we're
doing in that court, or at least trying to do.
And going back to the history of the Gladue Courts,
and maybe Jonathan, this is another question
that we can ask you, but when did discussions
begin for creating a space like the Gladue Courts?
You mentioned earlier that Gladue was a 1999
case. It was actually argued in November of 1998.
And Aboriginal Legal Services was what's called
an intervener. We were at the court and we were
making arguments in the case. The decision came
out in April 1999. It's a remarkable decision.
It's written. It's pretty easy to read. And it's
really, I go back to it every month or two I
read it. And as a lawyer, it was really exciting
to get this decision because this is why I wanted
to be a lawyer, to get involved in cases like
this. It was all really exciting. But then not
much changed. So even though the Supreme Court
in Gladue said judges had to sentence people
differently, that the overrepresentation of Indigenous
people was a crisis, things weren't changing.
And so in September of 2000, we were invited
to a conference of judges from across the country.
And we gave a little presentation about what
we did at Aboriginal Legal Services. And one
of the people in the room was Justice Patrick
Sheppard, who's since passed away. He was a judge
at Old City Hall. And at the end of the session,
after we talked about how disappointed we were
that things weren't happening with Gladue, Justice
Sheppard said, what if we set up a court just
to deal with Indigenous people? What do you think?
And we said, well, we think that's... That's
a great idea. And so for the next year, we worked.
It was largely Justice Shepard and some other
judges who worked to establish the court. And
in the fall of 2001, the Gladue Court opened.
It was the first one of its kind in Canada. So
it was pretty remarkable. What exactly is expected
of judges who do appear in Gladue courts? Because
we talked a little bit about the differences
from other court settings, but Justice Chamberlain,
maybe you can answer that question for us. You
know, the thing we have to remember is that judges
are independent, right? Like, it's very important
that judges, you know, not be influenced by rules
and other than the law. We all have to follow
the law. But the reality is, I know for me, Part
of the comfort that I have, and I think why Gladucourt
works well, is because of the informality. And,
you know, and at times it could be a chaotic
place, right? You've got folks, some of whom
have a lot of different struggles, including
mental health and addictions and poverty and
hunger, all kinds of things. And so it can be
a bit of a chaotic place. So it has to be somebody
who can be calm and can be... you know, willing
to not stand on formality and be prepared to
kind of roll with things as things go along.
And it's got to be somebody who really understands
the Gladue principles and is really committed,
I think, to, you know, reducing and over -incarceration,
right? I mean, the code is clear that we have
to do everything we can to avoid incarceration
where appropriate. There are times when I sentence
people to further jail, but, you know, I recognize
that it should be the last resort for me, the
very last resort for me, right? And it sometimes
means taking a risk on somebody that you think,
like, you know, It's not to say that there aren't
risks of further offenses, but... How serious
is the risk of harm to the community or individuals
in the community? I don't expect that people
are going to walk out of my court and never commit
another offense, right? And I remind myself,
for me, that, you know, like, okay, so let's
say I have somebody today and my option is do
I sentence them to no time in jail or six months
in jail? Well, what's going to change if I release
them now or in six months' time? It's six months
that the community will not have, you know, they
won't have access to the community and won't
be out there. But will anything change in their
lives? And so for me, it's how can I make an
impact and encourage them to make changes in
their lives? And how can I try and put supports
in place to help people actually, as Emma was
saying, Emma Hayden, the Crown was saying, you
know, that that will really help folks do the
things we want to do, protect the community,
make some positive changes in their lives and
move forward in a more positive way. You know,
I think people self -select in some ways to come
to Gladue Court in terms of personality. But
it's a challenge because we also sit quite a
few days now. So it's an ongoing process that
we have to keep people in there. I mean, the
judges. And you spoke about positive change,
Justice Chamberlain. And I wanted to ask everybody
what your own experience with the Gladue Courts
has been like over time. You know, have people
have given good feedback about the Gladue Courts?
Have there been criticisms? So maybe, Emma, we
could start with you. with that question if you
feel comfortable. It's an interesting question
to answer. So one of the things that we do in
the Gladue Court, and this is something that
is largely driven in some ways by Crown policy,
is diversion. And so when we're talking about,
you know, specific change for people and ways
that we're kind of building on restorative justice,
this is one of the options that is available
to Crowns. And there are certain offences that
we can divert. And what that means is that the
person goes essentially back into the hands of
the Indigenous community. And it's something
to address the root causes of their offending,
help them provide some stability in different
areas. areas of life, help them reconnect with
the Indigenous community. And that's our partner
in Toronto is through Aboriginal Legal Services.
So one of the things that I found in terms of
feedback is that so Aboriginal Legal Services
does a feast, an honouring ceremony for people
who have completed the diversion program. In
fact, it's happening in a couple of days from
now. And I have gone to that in the past. You
know, you'd think, oh, this is the crown. She's
going to this space where it's people who may
have been involved in the criminal justice system
and Indigenous peoples involved in the criminal
justice system. I think it's important. I am
not Indigenous. I am, in fact, a first generation
Canadian. But going into that space and being
able to, again, continue to build and nurture
those relationships that have been created that's
been some really wonderful feedback is to go
into that honoring ceremony and see people that
i'd only ever seen in court before and see them
in a completely different um in a different circumstance
i i'm always impressed by i think the difference
we have in reaction to folks whether it's whether
you're sentencing them or the fact that we really
try to connect with folks and not just lecture
them about what they've done wrong and look at
their record, but also appreciate their backgrounds
and the struggles that they've had, that they've
faced in their lives. And really kind of honor
and respect that, you know, as an individual,
they've had their struggles. But what brought
them here was a lot of the struggles that were
imposed upon them by their circumstances and,
you know, by racism and by colonialism and by
the Indian residential school programs that have
devastated families and communities. And now
we expect folks to come. before us and to have
everything together. And so, you know, I think
when you can respectfully talk about their past
and what brought them here and acknowledge that
they have every reason to be angry and they have
every reason to feel, you know, the loss that
they feel, but, you know, that you're encouraging
them to find a healthier way to deal with it.
You see the eyes light up a little differently.
And we have a lot of folks who struggle with
drug addiction. And right now, we've had the
scourge of fentanyl on our streets where folks
are dying from fentanyl overdoses. I keep a naloxone
kit on my desk with me. And when I hear that
folks have used fentanyl and they've been in
custody, I tell them, I say, you know, right
now that you haven't used because you've been
in custody for a period of time is when you're
at the highest risk for an overdose. And so I
hold up my naloxone kit and I say, I want you
to be safe. I have... seen too many names of
people who we've lost in our community because
of addictions and i want you to be safe be around
people get an alloxone kit use go to safe injection
sites i'm not saying i know you're going to use
and you i know you told me you want to make changes
but if you don't please be safe and there's a
difference in how people react and you can tell
that it's um They sense that you're not just
there to impose your sentence, but you're also
saying, you know, I mean that I want you to make
some changes and I care about where you're going
from here. And so to me, I think that those kinds
of impacts and to be honest, I felt it coming
back that at times when I've been away, I've
come back and people are like. We miss you. Where
have you been? And so that relationship that
you build, it's a community that we're building
in a way, because folks in some ways have lost
the connection to their community. And we're
trying to build that community in the court.
And I think that's one of the things we do well.
And I see it and feel it. I mean, it's anecdotal.
I don't know. But my sense is that we get that
a lot more, I think, in our courts than I would
in other courts where I've seen. That's amazing.
And I was wondering, for Jonathan and Lissandra,
do you have anything else to add? Yeah, I can
say from a client perspective, it's very often
that the duty counsel lawyers will be speaking
with clients and they talk about how much they
like LeDoux Court or they want to go there. When
they're in custody, they get the option if they
want to appear in court by video or in person.
And it's very common that they'll actually say
they want to come in person because they like
the space. Some of them actually feel safe there.
They feel safe to open up about what they're
struggling with. whether it's directly... in
custody what they're facing or you know just
kind of in general with their life and they also
enjoy being able to just sit in a circle with
everyone just having some general conversation
they get some snacks so for them it's really
the highlight of their week and we can tell that
it makes such a big difference for their overall
well -being and it just gives them something
to look forward to because you know this is obviously
a very low point in their life they're dealing
with A lot of different things. So when they
feel that they can get support from anywhere,
from different people, especially different positions
in the criminal justice system, it definitely
makes a really big difference to them. And Jonathan,
last but not least, do you have anything to add?
Yeah, I think it's important to know that courts
have historically been sites of injustice for
Indigenous people. They're not been a place that
people... want to go. It's a place that people
were taken to. There's a history of wrongful
convictions of Indigenous people, racism. I mean,
courts are not pleasant places. And they're hard
for everyone if you're charged. Let's not make
it sound like it's wonderful. But if you're Indigenous,
it's really hard. And one of the things that
we've seen since the Gladue Court started in
its very earliest stages when It was set up just
like any other court, but it was just run a bit
differently. To pick up on Sandra's point, clients
felt a sense of, I'm being listened to here.
You know, when someone's being sentenced, the
judge is required to say, do you have anything
you want to say? Judges have to say that. And
often clients will just say nothing. They won't
say anything. Or their lawyers sometimes will
tell them, don't say anything, just get this
over with. In Gladue Court, since it started,
That was a very serious question. And people
were listened to. And people talk about the fact
that they felt listened to and they felt heard.
We've just finished an evaluation of the new
Gladue Court, which will be coming out officially
very soon. And the clients speak about the fact
that it's unlike other places they've been. The
Gladue Courts are not restoring the faith of
Indigenous people in the legal system. That would
be way too much. What they're doing is they're
creating a space within a system that has historically
not been welcoming and not been kind and not
been fair. It's changed that balance so people
can go into that room on that day and feel better.
You know, throughout all of your answers today,
we've mentioned things like a welcoming space,
community and feeling heard. And just jumping
off from Jonathan's last answer, in your opinion,
What is the connection between our justice system
today and the concept of reconciliation? And
I know this might be a very big question, but
I was wanting to hear all of your thoughts on
that, if anyone would like to go first. Listen,
I tell folks all the time that we're doing what
we can to try and make it. a more welcoming and
a better place for folks to come through given
that they don't have a choice they have to be
there so as jonathan said we're trying to make
it a a better space and a better experience for
them but i don't kid myself right the reality
is that uh you know i'm not imposing indigenous
law or using indigenous traditions or indigenous
culture, this is still the criminal code. It's
still colonial law that I'm imposing. And that's
the tool that I have, unfortunately, right? The
Supreme Court told us, do it differently. The
Truth and Reconciliation Commission has given
us recommendations on what we can do to deal
with reconciliation. But I haven't been given
any new tools. I still have the code, and that's
what I have to impose. And the arguments I hear
are still about denunciation, deterrence, and
separation from the community. We're not using
Indigenous law, Indigenous tradition. So I think
we have a long way to go as a society, but that's
out of my hands. So I think what we do as part
of my journey to reconciliation is create a space
in our world here in Toronto and the Gladue Courts
to make it a better space for people to have
a different experience with the criminal justice
system. Thank you so much for sharing that, Justice
Chamberlain. You know, a lot of what this podcast
is for is to help people take a first step to
learn about these concepts and these places that
exist. And now I actually want to talk a little
bit more about the new Toronto Courthouse, which
is downtown. And we all mentioned that it's at
10 Armory Street. And I actually had the pleasure
of attending one time for a tour. And it's a
really lovely building. And there's a lot there
for people to see. So I definitely encourage
people to go. Just as a general sense, what is
different about the new Toronto Courthouse? What
is different from other courthouses that we might
see in Toronto or elsewhere in Ontario? Jonathan's
going to tell you about the Indigenous Learning
Centre, because that's something that's different
at the 10 Armory Street Courthouse location.
So the Indigenous Learning Centre is on the first
floor of the new Toronto Courthouse, and within
it, it contains the Grandmother Buffalo Lodge,
which is a round... lodge room, which has ventilation,
so it allows people to smudge, burn sacred medicines.
And it's got artwork, it's got sacred pieces,
and the space is used for all sorts of things.
We encourage people who want to learn about Indigenous
laws or traditions, they can get in touch with
Aboriginal Legal Services and we can set up training
sessions. A lot of organizations come into the
lodge to do training. The Ministry of the Attorney
General does training there. Justice Chamberlain
spoke about ceremonies. We do a lot of ceremonies
in the lodge. We have speakers that come to the
lodge. It's a really exciting place. We're just
revitalizing our outreach and publicity. So we're
going to have stuff online about what's going
on. I know that this podcast is sponsored by
OGEN and we're working with OGEN to get more.
and more teachers involved with it. So it's a
chance for people to learn about Indigenous people
and the legal system in a place that's other
than a courtroom. And it makes sense in some
ways because a lot of school trips, you know,
let's go to court. And so people, the school
comes and people get off the bus and they run
upstairs and they go to court and they go, oh,
I saw this case. I said, oh, I was charged with
this. And this is a chance to... see another
part of the system. And so we're very proud of
the lodge. And we just really just opened this
summer, last summer, 2024. But it's already been
really busy and really used. And we're very excited
about where it might be going. I guess my final
question is, we've talked about Gladue Court
and the Indigenous Learning Centre. But what
are your final thoughts on what these spaces
mean for people? i think it's it's really important
um again it goes back to the clients the the
indigenous accused because when we look at the
ones that are coming before the court especially
the ones who are repeatedly going before the
court They've had some very, very difficult and
very traumatic background experiences. They've
experienced some sort of victimization in their
life. And again, this goes back to the history
of colonization, you know, the 60 scoop residential
school. So there's something that's happened
to them that's led them to go down a path that
isn't so great. And a lot of the times it's not
because they want to, it's because it's a product
of their circumstances. The really great part
about Gladue Court is because there is this focus
on restorative justice, it's a court that doesn't
solely focus on punishing offenders. So it looks
at how can we involve the community? How can
we connect them with different organizations
like Aboriginal Legal Services? How can we address
the root cause of why they're coming before the
court? And it gives these clients a sense of
hope. It helps them to connect with people and
organizations that they may not have been aware
of before coming to court, or they may not have
even had the capabilities of being able to do
that. If they didn't have a phone, they don't
have internet access to find out what those resources
are. So it really does create this holistic outlook
for them. And it really gives them something
to kind of hold on to, to have some hope and
to understand that. The court in itself is aware
of what they've experienced. It's being taken
into consideration. And while, of course, that
does have to be balanced with different principles
and, you know, at the same time, public safety,
there is a level that will make sure that we
can do what we can for them to get the help that
they need. I'd like to just, we've talked a lot,
obviously, about accused people, because that's
an important part and talking about offenders
and talking about the people who are coming in
charge before the court. But in these spaces
where we have these Indigenous supports, where
we have these resources, like the feather, like
the ability to smudge, like workers who are there,
elders, those kinds of things. for me as a Crown,
those are really important as well for witnesses
and victims or complainants of offenses too.
And so, you know, obviously the Criminal Code
talks about sentencing in 718 .2e. There are
sentencing principles that relate specifically
to Indigenous. victims as well. And victims deserve
to have those supports in the courtroom space
because Indigenous victims and Indigenous witnesses
have gone through those same histories that Indigenous
accused people have had. And so those are also
very troubling. uncomfortable and traumatic spaces
for witnesses and victims to be in as well. And
I found that, you know, one of the things that
we're doing in terms of building the relationships
with accused people who are coming before the
court is we're also building those relationships
with the people who may be victims of crime.
One of the things that we do as well in the courtroom
is sentencing circles. And Lissandra kind of
talked a little bit about, you know, doing these
sentencing principles and sentencing approaches
that look at people more holistically and deal
with the roots of offending. You know, when we
are in a sentencing circle, sometimes you will
have victims of crime who are participating in
the sentencing circle and dealing very. you know,
in that very micro environment of that one relationship
with that one person in that circle talking about,
you know, restoring the balance in that relationship
and restoring respect for that person who's there.
Can I just jump in for a minute? Yeah, I just,
the other thing I would just add is that I think,
you know, we often think of reconciliation in
terms of what can we change and what can we do
to make it a better space for people. And I think
One of the things I said in my swearing -in ceremony
from my experience in Gladue Court and the work
that we did in Gladue Court, I think we have
a lot more to bring and to teach the criminal
justice system. And I think that there are a
lot of lessons there that can be learned. I can
tell you that as a judge, I'm a different judge
in other courts than I am because of the work
that I've done in the Gladue Court. How I approach
other cases has changed because of the work that
I've done in Gladue Court. And so I think there
are learnings and teachings and gifts there that
we bring. to the criminal justice system that
aren't, I think, yet appreciated yet. I think
we're getting there. We're starting to learn.
We're starting to see it. But I think there's,
you know, it's a movement and a change that I
think is really big and really significant that
I don't think everybody's caught on yet. But
as we get more converts to what we're doing,
I think we're seeing some of that spreading.
And I think, you know, we can change the system
and make it a better place for the work that
we're trying to do. I want to get back again,
because I keep saying I read this case, back
to the Gladue case. And I think one of the things
that the Supreme Court said is that the overrepresentation,
the mass incarceration of Indigenous people is
a crisis in the Canadian criminal justice system.
And what's significant about that is the crisis
is not that Indigenous people commit crime. Lots
of people commit crime. The crisis is the way
that... The legal system has responded to Indigenous
people who commit crime is to disproportionately
put people in jail. And the legal system, the
criminal legal system itself, is a source of
discrimination towards Indigenous people. And
that's not just, it is my feeling, but it's also
the feeling of the Supreme Court. They've said
that on a number of occasions. And so what this
court... tries to do. We're not doing favors.
It's not like, oh, we're doing something special
for Indigenous people. What we're trying to do
is remedy the damage that has been done. When
the TRC in their 94 calls to action, they divide
them into two parts. One is legacy. How do we
do with the legacy? of residential schools and
then reconciliation. Reconciliation happens after
legacy. All the justice recommendations are in
the legacy part. We have to fix the harm that
was done from the legal system. Ultimately, it's
Aboriginal Legal Services' position that where
we eventually want to get to is distinct, discrete,
Indigenous. justice systems that's the answer
we are but we're not there yet and we're not
going to be there tomorrow we're not going to
be there next month or next year you know it's
going to take a while and in the meantime there
are many people many indigenous people who are
caught up in this system and we have to do what
we can to make that experience a better one and
better for them so that we create safer communities
and we don't perpetuate the discrimination that
too often people have been subject to That's
another amazing answer. And I want to thank everybody
for being so open and candid with your answers
today. I did have one extra question that came
to the top of my mind before we end off here.
And this one is for our listeners, especially
for young people who might be interested in a
career in law or in advocacy. So I was wondering,
what's the best piece of advice? you can give
them if they are passionate about issues like
Indigenous people's rights or other social community
issues that might be present in Canada. Follow
your heart, find some mentors, find people to
work with who are doing their good work, help
them out, see what they need, listen to what
it is that they need and they want from me. Yeah,
I would say try and get some teachings. So the
things that have been most impactful and meaningful
to me and still are meaningful to me is spending
time with elders and traditional teachers. And
you can do that anywhere. Wherever you are, there
will be teachers. So that's one thing that I
think is really important because you'll understand
that Indigenous culture has more answers to more
complex questions. So that's one thing. And the
second thing is, if you're interested in justice,
Maybe law. There are other ways that you can
achieve justice. So don't feel that you only
have to think about law. Justice Chamberlain
and Emma talked about the work that they did
in other areas before they came to law, and those
are also about creating a just world. So if those
things matter to you, find something that works
for you, that you're passionate about, and you
can probably find ways to... turn that into something
that's going to be relevant to justice. And if
you're interested in Indigenous people, justice
for Indigenous people. Amazing. How about you,
Emma? So I'm going to assume that the students
who are listening to this podcast are in many
different places across Ontario. We're obviously,
all of us coming to you from Toronto, and we
have a very specific... Indigenous community
and urban Indigenous community of people who
come from many different places across Turtle
Island. But it may be that your listeners are
people who live on or close to reserve communities.
You know, learn about your reserve community
that's near you. Sometimes you may be able to
access the Friendship Centre. Those are places
where you could start making these connections
and hopefully participate in ceremony. I will
echo what Jonathan said, you know, Participating
in things like sweats have been one of the most
impactful and incredible things for me working
in this area to be able to kind of work through
and process and understand the teachings in a
very deeply personal way for me. And then I carry
that forward with me in my practice. Last but
not least, Lissandra, how about you? My advice
would also be to get involved with community
organizations, to do the volunteer work, because
it makes such a significant difference to you
as a person, to help you grow as a person, to
help you learn, to help you figure out what you
want to do, what you're passionate about. But
it also gives you an opportunity to learn right
from the people who directly work with the individuals
that need the help the most. And you learn so
much from them. And those are the experiences
that I hold very close to my heart as I was growing
up and thinking about going into law school.
They made a really big impact on me. And they
also taught me skills that... I use every day
now being a duty counsel lawyer, and I wouldn't
be able to be where I am today or provide the
level of service I can to my clients without
having that experience. And that's all really
good advice. And I want to thank you all once
again for being a part of today's episode. To
Justice Chamberlain, Jonathan, Lissandra, Emma,
thank you so much for being so open and candid
with your answers. I do think and I hope that
listeners who do listen to this episode will
be inspired to learn more, not just about Gladdu
Court, but also about issues surrounding restorative
justice, other support systems that are in place
and organizations like Aboriginal Legal Services.
So apart from that, thank you so much once again
for joining me here today. It's been a great
one. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks
for having me. It was fun. Thank you for tapping
into this episode of Law Syrup. On the next episode,
we take a look at the Ontario rental market with
Douglas Kwan from the Advocacy Centre for Tenants
Ontario. Law Syrup is produced by me, Herman
Wong, and the Ontario Justice Education Network.
For more information and for accompanying resources,
check out ojen .ca and our show notes. See you
next time.