Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk with special guests about hot topics in Canadian
law.
This podcast is a co-production with the Ontario Justice Education Network, also known as OJEN.
I'm Herman Wong.
Let's tap in.
Before we begin, please note that this show is not intended to be legal advice or be a
replacement for a legal representative.
Hey everybody and welcome back to the show.
This week I am joined by two special guests because they are my high school friends, Daphne
Chu and Bronte Anderson.
This week we'll be talking about our journey to law school.
Now all three of us started in the same high school and we all took law as an elective.
However, we all made it to law school, but on different, unique paths.
Together we talked about challenges, resources, and where to find support along the way.
So without further ado, here's what we discussed.
So to get things started, let's introduce everybody.
So how about Daphne, you go ahead and tell us who you are and what you do.
Yeah, absolutely.
Happy to be here.
So I'm a litigation associate at a firm called Borden Ladner Gervais and I practice in commercial
and civil litigation.
Amazing.
And Bronte?
Daphne, that is a lovely introduction to follow.
I am Bronte and I'm just a rising 2L at McGill here in Montreal.
Outside of that, I hail from Stovall, Ontario.
I'm obviously now living in Montreal and I had the pleasure of meeting Herman and Daphne
in high school.
Right.
And of course, you know, right now I am currently done articling.
So right now I'm an incoming associate at a firm called Tork and Main's LLP in downtown
Toronto.
And it's interesting because we all started in high school.
We all took law in high school.
But I guess my first question for both of you is why did you want to actually study
law in the first place during high school?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think, you know, for transparency's sake, I initially when I was younger really wanted
to go into sciences.
So you know, whether that was to be a doctor, a vet, an optometrist, whatever it was that,
you know, I was certainly interested in that.
And then I took grade 11 chemistry and I'm not sure if Bronte remembers, but that was
a harrowing experience for me.
And it just really opened my eyes to the fact that science was not going to be my, you know,
my path.
And so I still wanted a career path that was going to challenge me and be something that
would speak to my strengths.
And I discovered in probably grade 11, grade 12 that my strengths were going to be in writing.
And so that's kind of how I landed on becoming a lawyer.
And also, I guess for context, I studied in a program where I did my undergrad and my
law degree at the same time.
So it was a six year program and I studied political science and I got my law degree
kind of within those six years.
And so I decided, you know, pretty early on in grade 12 when I applied to this program
that I wanted to be a lawyer and kind of just committed to it.
And then here I am.
Amazing.
And we'll go back to your journey at UOttawa for that specific program as well.
But Brandi first, why did you choose to study law in high school?
That's a good question.
It's also a really good question for you to ask me as I prepare, hopefully for a recruitment
season this upcoming year.
It's interesting.
I think my answer is similar to Daphne's in the sense that it definitely wasn't the first
career I thought of or actively tried to pursue.
I also was initially drawn to the sciences, particularly healthcare jobs.
And then as you may both remember, I also went through a period of time thinking that
I would be a high school music teacher, then realized that, you know, I don't think I was
pursuing the sciences for me truly, but saw a lot of kind of common threads from the idea
of working in healthcare or working as an educator.
And I kind of saw those as being something I could achieve and apply in a legal profession
and ended up through a variety of undergraduate experiences, realizing that I actually enjoyed
a lot of the other kind of important skills for law school and then a legal career.
And I think ultimately, the big ones were probably one, I like writing, but particularly
technical writing.
And that certainly was something I got to kind of hone in my undergraduate degree in
health social sciences.
And I also really liked the whole kind of relationship forming and relationship maintenance
aspect.
The idea of working in a very client focused environment, a very collaborative environment
was really appealing to me, as well as one in which there's a huge, huge importance of
education.
So there's a teaching and kind of counseling aspect.
All of those things were really appealing on my end.
And then quite admittedly, it also seemed like profession with a lot of different job
opportunities and kind of different avenues or environments to work post-grad.
And so I think I certainly entered law school with some starting interests, but they're
obviously still crystallizing.
And yeah, I thought it would be fun to do something where overall I knew I was headed
in the right direction and then could still kind of narrow things down.
Great.
By the way, you mentioned a high school music teacher, the three of us, we used to be in
the band orchestra together.
I used to play the clarinet.
Daphne, what did you play?
I played the flute and the piccolo and it was very glamorous.
I had to wear an earplug because the piccolo was so loud and high pitched.
And I think I've actually permanently damaged my hearing because of it.
Did you really?
I think so.
And I now have like tinnitus in my right ear that flares every time there are loud noises.
So I blame the piccolo for that.
No, Bronte, what did you play?
I played trombone.
Daphne, that's funny that you should mention.
Maybe it's not funny.
I guess it's not a good thing that it's still an ongoing issue.
But when you mentioned the hearing damage, I actually wrote something along those lines
in your yearbook.
I think I wrote, you know, I hope that the hearing damage resolves itself.
You head off to law school, which is kind of funny.
And then hasn't yeah, hasn't subsided, unfortunately.
Well, that's a bummer.
But I guess the memories still live on.
But going back to just, you know, law in high school, I guess my path was kind of similar
to the both of you because I was very dead set on being a surgeon when I was younger.
A lot of it came from me reading a lot of books about like the human body and science.
I was like, oh, this is so cool.
And then I did grade 10 science.
And do you remember the optics section from like grade 10 science with like concave convex
mirrors and like prisms?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No idea what they were talking about.
I mean, I still managed to like survive grade 10 science.
But since that day, I was like, yeah, I cannot be a doctor.
I cannot do anything related to chemistry or physics or biology.
And again, just like the both of you, I was like, you know, I really like to read and
write.
So how about we just focus on those skills rather than doing something that I know will
bore me and will probably confuse me.
So I think when I saw that law was an option for grade 11, I was like, oh, I'll definitely
do it because it's something that seems like a good career path.
And it's something that generally interested me.
And I'm really glad I took it.
And the three of us, we took law in French immersion.
Is that correct?
Like we all took it in French.
It was, that's right.
Yeah.
So I took law in grade 11.
And in grade 12, I did another thing.
I did philosophy instead.
But you two, Daphne, you were in my grade 11 French immersion law class.
And were you with Bronte in grade 12 law?
I'm trying to remember.
We probably were in the same class, Bronte.
I think we were.
I think so.
And throughout the process, whether you started in grade 11 or grade 12, what were some of
your favorite memories from studying law in high school?
Because I have my own favorite memories, but I was wondering about you guys and what you
guys might have thought of as memorable for those two years.
Yeah.
I remember we did the mock trial.
I think that was in grade 11 that we did a mock trial.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it probably was in grade 11.
And I remember I was questioning a witness and it was so fun.
I remember it felt like a performance.
It felt like I was kind of acting and whatever, but it was just so much fun.
I think that was probably one of the highlights of grade 11 law.
And then I think we also went to the courthouse that year.
And yeah.
And I remember it was really fun to go to the courthouse and see a courtroom for the
very first time.
But I remember sitting there and listening to the lawyers questioning the witness.
I think it was in a criminal trial.
And I remember thinking, wow, this is so incredibly boring.
I can't imagine asking all these questions.
And this is so boring.
But overall, that trip was really, really fun as well.
So I remember thinking after that trip, oh yeah, I can totally see myself doing this
for a living.
And I can see myself going to court and questioning witnesses and making submissions and that
sort of thing.
I remember maybe it was also in grade 11 where we had to film that video.
Oh yeah.
I remember.
Gosh, that was so fun.
That was crazy.
I probably still have it on my MacBook at home.
I don't even know what that is.
I hope it never sees the light of day.
Oh, absolutely not.
For those of you who don't know, we had a project, me and Daphne and another friend
of ours, Kristy, we were in a group together and we had to do a final project where we
had to do some sort of movie based on something legal related.
I don't even know what the prompt was, but we decided to do a home video where we portrayed
Madame Garofalo, bless her heart, she's retired now, but we used her as this big criminal
mastermind.
We literally filmed scenes in my basement.
And I remember we took turns going to TD Bank to record scenes of the quote unquote bank
robbery.
Do you remember that?
Herman, I remember this now that you mentioned the TD Bank.
I do remember seeing this cinematic masterpiece and being very envious that I had not taken
the class with you.
I mean, we did a really good job.
I think we got like an A or something on that assignment, Daphne and I.
We did really well on that assignment.
It was fun.
It was camp.
I loved it.
And again, would I ever rewatch it or post it online?
Absolutely not.
But it was a fun assignment.
And again, Daphne, when you talk about the courtroom trip, that is like the experience
now that I share on any interview that I have when people are like, why did you want to
study law?
And it's a true story because we went downtown, I think to 361 University Avenue, the courthouse
there.
And I remember the criminal trial there because it was the trial for the Eaton Center shooting
in the food court.
And I don't know if you remember this, Daphne, but we met with a judge that day.
And the story that really captivated me was that she said that if you want to go to law
school, do something fun for your undergrad.
And then she said she did opera singing at York University.
And I thought that was very inspiring because clearly she was like, look, if you want to
go to law school, do something fun for your undergrad.
It doesn't have to be legal related.
Just do something fun where you can get good grades.
And then if you really want to go to law school, that can still be your path.
So that's something that really stuck with me from our grade 11 experience.
Bronte, how about you?
Did you have any good memories from grade 12 law class?
I do.
I remember.
So by the time I got to grade 12, I was in my going to be a music teacher phase and had
already kind of become frustrated with the sciences, had a very similar experience to
the one that Daphne just described.
Daphne was with grade 11 physics.
And I remember starting to read, I guess, our assigned materials in grade 12 law.
And I remember thinking to myself, okay, this is also very analytical.
It's fun to think about rules.
It's fun to think about problem solving in a very, you know, kind of structured way.
But it's also fun that these are not scientific laws or formulas to remember.
It's not a bunch of numbers to crunch.
It has nothing to do with a parabola.
At least the stuff that we were learning didn't have to do with a parabola.
And I think that's kind of where it clicked that, you know, I think I already had an idea
of this, but it kind of, I think was a bit of an aha moment that the kind of technical
approach to problem solving that I found, I guess, intellectually fulfilling in a way
could be achieved outside of just science and math, which is definitely a kind of a
belief or a strongly held belief on my end up into that point.
And again, strongly held beliefs that again, kind of evolved throughout undergrad, where
I kind of followed a similar path of analytical and critical thinking, but not necessarily
scientific formulas and theorems and whatnot, but rather through the social sciences.
And then I mean, we also went on a courthouse visit in grade 12, I think, and that was pretty
fun as well.
Herman, you were there for sure, because we sat together.
I wasn't there, I didn't take grade 12 law.
Did you not?
No, I took the OSFIE.
Oh, then maybe it was, well, Daphne was there as well.
How interesting.
Like the Mandela effect.
You just remember me everywhere you go in high school.
Just...
No, I was definitely at the courthouse because I remember, Daphne, you were definitely there.
I'm trying to think who else we were sitting with, but I remember that I hadn't eaten enough
for breakfast that day and my stomach was just growling so noticeably and so horribly.
I was very self-conscious about that.
So I definitely remember it for that reason, as well as for, of course, the enriching educational
experience that came along with the excursion.
But let's move on now to the law school application process.
Now, Daphne, you did your own special program at UOttawa, which kind of deviated from the
traditional thing where you did an undergrad program first and then apply to law school
with the LSAT.
So why don't you tell us about the special program at UOttawa that you took that lasted
for six years?
Yeah, absolutely.
So this is a program where you apply straight out of high school, just like any regular
undergrad program.
And you can do either poli sci or you can do business.
So I chose poli sci because I genuinely never really had that much of an interest in doing
a BCom straight out of high school.
And I always thought that I would do poli sci after I discovered that I wasn't going
to be a doctor.
I was like, okay, I think poli sci is kind of the way to go.
I really liked taking civics and careers all day enough in grade 10.
So that's kind of how I ended up deciding on poli sci.
And so in this program, I should also note that it's all in French.
So UOttawa doesn't offer this program in English.
And luckily, I did French immersion all throughout elementary school and high school.
So I was pretty comfortable with doing this program in French.
So you start with your undergrad, you do two years of poli sci or your business degree.
You have to maintain an 8.0 GPA.
So that's an A minus GPA for your first two years.
And then after that, you start law school in your third year.
And then for your third to your sixth year, you do a combination of poli sci, business
courses and then your law courses.
So typically in a year, I would do six or seven law courses and then the rest would
be my undergrad courses.
It's a bit strange because you do these law courses and I vividly remember going to finishing
my crim class and then immediately after I went to Canadian politics or something.
And it's just so different the way that you're taught in those classes that it was such a
jarring switch, but it was interesting.
And then at the end of the six years, you graduate with your undergrad and your jurors
doctor.
That's amazing.
So you do six years and you're going to get your jurors doctor by the end of it.
I personally took the more, I guess, I don't want to say more conventional, but I guess
more people do an undergrad.
They might work a bit like Bronte did.
But for me, I did my undergrad in journalism at Carleton University.
So I did that for four years and then I took the LSAT and that's how I went to law school.
But Bronte, how about you tell us about how you found out about the law school application
process?
Like how did you find out about the LSAT, all the different schools you could apply
to, how to enroll in those schools, and also what made you decide to work before you applied
again for law school?
Sure.
I always knew that not just at the time that I actually decided to apply, but I had a long-standing
awareness of this thing called the LSAT.
I knew it was the law school equivalent of the MCAT and also knew that submitting an
application, at least in Ontario, was very similar, again, to the med school application
process and our undergrad application process where it's all kind of one centralized system.
Definitely did a lot of Googling, a lot of reading Reddit, a lot of the CanLaw forum
online to kind of get people's tips and tricks and get an understanding of timelines and
just how much of a black box it really seems to be.
Also did the typical attend information sessions, especially during COVID when a lot of them
were online, that was helpful to hear different school perspectives and how the application
process works.
Then, of course, also had people like yourself, Harman, to look to who had found through the
process successfully not that many years ago.
That was super helpful to get people like yourself who could kind of give an honest
take.
I think I threw out ideas about my personal statement and CV and whatnot as I was going
through the process, it was helpful to hear what your approach was.
Then you also asked why it's a time off to work as well, right?
Yeah.
That one's definitely multi-pronged, that answer.
I would say that the first reason was probably to gain some sort of work experience, at least
in the field that I studied.
As you know, after my undergrad, I did a master's in public health.
I really liked the topics, so wanted to get some kind of applied public health experience,
as well as just experience in the workforce.
I always worked multiple jobs throughout my undergrad and my master's, but it was nice
to just be an employee for once and to not be also a student at the same time.
Then I guess a few other reasons as well.
I think when the decision that I wanted to get a law degree really kind of solidified
in my mind, I found that I was having difficulty articulating why in words.
To me, that was not a good sign.
Let's, for lack of better terms, kill two birds with one stone.
Let's get some work experience.
Let's also take some time to kind of just figure out the interests, be able to at least
articulate them, because I think that represents perhaps a lack of crystallized goals internally
on my end.
So that was a helpful exercise.
Then I also saw that taking time to work could also have some advantages in terms of building
a more diverse CV, to put it, I guess bluntly, there was also a huge financial aspect, taking
time to not only gain experience, but also be able to save up funds to afford tuition.
I also was aware that law school is very competitive at an admission, and so I may not have control
over where I would end up, and that could involve significant personal expenses, whereas
I was living at home all through my undergrad and master's.
So yeah, a variety of reasons.
Yeah, you mentioned Reddit and the CanLawForum, which honestly was kind of how my mom and
I would find out about the law school application process.
For those of you who don't know, CanLawForum, if you used to go by another name, I think
the old website got deleted or something, but it's called CanLawForumNow.
It's basically a forum online where users post about GPAs and what will it take to go
to law school, and they also post things about what life is like when you're in law school,
so recruitment processes for summer jobs and stuff like that, the bar exam.
But I honestly found the website to be quite useful.
People I've talked to were kind of divisive on it.
They were like, don't look at the website because if you do, you just end up comparing
yourself unhealthily to other people in the same position as you.
But for me, because I didn't have any mentors in the legal profession when I was growing
up or in high school, so Reddit and the CanLawForum, or the older version of it, was really my
only way of kind of finding out what steps I can take, what other people have done, and
how to have a successful journey to law school and doing all the right things to get me to
where I wanted.
But, you know, I wish I think in high school I took more liberties and asked for more help
from our guidance counselors.
If I just asked them what the way to go to law school would be, they would probably have
a better sense of where to direct me, but that's on me for not really benefiting from
it.
So I recommend to all the listeners, especially if you're in high school right now, if you
are thinking about a career in law, you can always ask your guidance counselors for help
or career counselors, and I believe that they will be able to show you what a potential
path to law school might be like.
But given that we're now in a different position now, we're no longer in high school.
I've just finished my article, and Daphne, you're already working as a litigation associate.
Bronte, you're still in law school.
I have a question for you guys.
Do you think you need to know what kind of law you want to do before you decide to go
to law school?
Goodness gracious.
I hope not.
Otherwise, yeah, I hope not.
Otherwise, that's concerning on my end, because I certainly don't have it all figured out
at the moment, but I'm curious, Daphne, to hear your answer first.
Categorically, no.
Yeah, absolutely no to your question, Herman, just because even throughout law school, I
had no idea what I wanted to practice.
So I summered and I article at BLG, and in my summer, I thought I had figured it out,
thought I wanted to be a litigator, but wasn't too sure, because the work you do as a student
and the work you do as an associate, it's so different.
As a student, you're working on very narrow issues.
You're researching, you're drafting memos, you're maybe drafting pleadings and factums
and other court documents, and you're only on the file for that very specific reason,
whereas as an associate, you're on that file from beginning to end.
And so the work that you do is just so different.
And so I thought I wanted to be a litigator when I was a summer student, went back to
law school for my third year and discovered that I liked tax law.
And so I thought, okay, maybe I'll be a corporate tax lawyer.
I don't know.
And then so I came back as an articling student, tried tax, didn't love the corporate tax work
as much as I thought I would, and then ended up liking the tax litigation work.
And so I was like, okay, maybe I'll be a tax litigator.
And then I helped out with a complex commercial litigation trial in, I want to say December
of, yeah, December of 2023 or 2022.
And then decided that I probably wanted to be a commercial litigator, but then, you know,
tried health law and I really liked that.
And so it really was a matter of trial and error for me to figure out at this point that,
okay, I know I want to be a litigator and I know I want to do commercial litigation.
I like health, I like tax, but it took me a long time to get to this position where
I can comfortably say that I want to do these things.
And I certainly think, you know, when you're applying to law school, I don't think, you
know, you really have a sense of what it is like to be a lawyer in a specific area.
So I think, you know, it's best to keep your mind open to all the possibilities, you know,
try everything, try the crim stuff, try the family stuff, try the commercial stuff.
You never know until you try.
Yeah, I agree.
When I was in high school, I mean, of course, I thought about being a lawyer.
I wanted to go to law school, but my perspective of what I saw myself doing in the legal profession
has taken more twists and turns than a season of the white load is okay.
I mean, in high school, I was like, look, I just want to go to law school.
I don't know what I'm going to do.
I just want to go to law school and hopefully there I can figure it out.
So going into law school, I was like, you know, criminal law seems fun, right?
That's what you see on TV most of the time.
And I did a couple of criminal law things.
I had a great job working in my one L summer at a criminal defense firm.
And then I did a criminal law clinic with the Crown's office in downtown Toronto.
And that was great.
But I think the more I had this type of experiential type of thing in my life, I kind of decided
that maybe criminal law was not for me.
And having the opportunity to experience all these different other types of courses like
business law and administrative law, they've really helped me kind of shift my thinking
and be more open-minded to other types of law.
So again, like with you, Daphne, when Art articles, I didn't really know what I really
wanted.
Litigation was always in the back of my head.
But then I also did a trial in construction law.
And that really kind of solidified everything for me where I love just being in court.
I love the type of presentations that you do, how much oral advocacy is needed.
So I thought that really fit me and that's why I decided to return as an associate in
the litigation field.
But I personally believe that, you know, if you're in high school and you don't know what
you want to do when you're a lawyer or working in a legal related field, I don't think that's
a really big issue because you'll figure it out as you go.
And the more experience you get, you'll get more knowledge of the things you're good at
and also what you want to do as a potential career.
But along the way, have you guys had any mentors that you can look up to during your journey
to law school?
Was there anyone you could ask for help or guidance?
Or were you someone like me who just kind of turned to CanLawForum and read it?
I wish I knew about CanLawForum when I was in high school, like when I was in grade 12
or the predecessor to CanLawForum because I also, I'm a first generation lawyer.
I don't really have anyone in my family or kind of in my family, friends circle or anyone
in my life before I applied to my program that I could ask those questions to.
And I wish I did because I think there are so many things that you really need to talk
through with someone who's been there and who's gone through the experience of going
to law school and being a lawyer and figuring out that path.
For me, it was a lot of Googling, a lot of reading about what it's like to be a lawyer
and what it's like to go to law school and being very, very afraid of the Socratic method
and like all that stuff, but never really having anyone specific to talk to you other
than obviously family and friends and stuff to kind of talk through these things, but
no one specifically who had gone through that.
Right.
How about you Bronte?
I think I relied mostly on online sources and the generosity of some strangers that
I messaged on LinkedIn for application related information.
And then like I said, Harbin, talking to folks like you who had done the process very recently,
on my end, I think where the mentorship was particularly valuable was in really clarifying
and confirming my motivations to kind of enter the profession to begin with.
And so it wasn't necessarily obviously just lawyers that I had the pleasure of speaking
with, but even just family friends who had particularly privileged to know some women
that I think is very strong and were very successful in managing a very busy career
as well as family life and friendship and all these other important relationships.
And it was wonderful to have some meaningful conversations and honest conversations with
them to talk about what are the advantages of pursuing that type of lifestyle and equally
what are some of the disadvantages and how you kind of reconcile that with your value
system in order to hopefully set yourself on a track towards fulfillment in a bunch
of domains of your life, career being a really big and important one, at least in my value
system.
But also I was very privileged to have mentors during my undergrad.
I worked at the same clinical research job five, six years and was really lucky to work
closely with a clinician scientist.
And I think she really exemplified to me what hard work looks like.
I think there's a lot of aspects of what I perceived as her approach to career life and
excellence in her career.
I think there are a lot of things from that that I try to emulate.
That's great.
And those relationships are very important, you know, because you really need a support
system when you go on this journey to law school, whether it's family or friends, you
really need those type of people to kind of lift you up along the way because it can be
a very stressful process.
You know, there's so many things to keep track of, whether it's all the types of recruitment
activities you have to participate in or having good enough grades to get into law school
or getting good references.
It's very important to have a support system in place.
But now that you're at the places that you are looking back now, what was the hardest
part of getting to law school in the first place?
Maybe Bronte, we'll start with you.
Sure.
But on my end, I think the big one is just uncertainty.
I think it's in my mind, it almost seemed like a bit of a blessing and a curse that
the path to law school doesn't have to be linear.
And there aren't, you know, super, super strict criteria or boxes that one has to check in
order to kind of guarantee a good likelihood of acceptance.
So while that provided a wonderful amount of room to kind of explore other interests,
in a way, I think, at least on my end, I found myself, you know, always questioning, okay,
well, how will this look on a CV?
Or, you know, what opportunity could this lead to in the future?
Or, you know, how would an admissions person perceive this?
And I think I think I like to hope that I try to keep a good rein on that.
But I think it was still somewhat of a like an emotional or psychological burden that
took away from the fun or the joy of applying.
Yeah, I think it's just the big uncertainty.
But as hard as it is sometimes to remember that, you know, we're not defined by an acceptance
or a rejection or a job title.
And it sounds really trite.
But at least that's something that I kind of had to wrestle with a little bit along
the way.
And I think I still am.
How about you, Daphne?
What was the hardest part about this whole journey to law school for you?
Yeah.
I think what Bronte is saying about the uncertainty of everything really applied to my situation
as well, just because so, you know, to get into law school from my program, I had to
maintain a certain GPA.
And so that meant, you know, starting day one of first year of university, every assignment,
every quiz, every exam, every, you know, participation point, what have you, mattered.
And so that was a very, very stressful, you know, burden to carry for two years.
You know, for me, it was a matter of bringing my best to every single assignment or every
single thing that I was graded for.
And so, you know, when I would get maybe not the best grade on something, it would really
make me feel very uncertain about my prospects of getting into law school.
And so I really had to figure out a way to manage that stress of everything.
And it was so great to have such a good support system.
And I have had a great support system, you know, throughout my undergrad and throughout
law school.
And I think that was really, really key.
And it helps put things into perspective and helps you remember that this is not the be
all end all of your life.
Like, okay, just because you don't get into law school doesn't mean you are a failure
or, you know, all these other words that you might call yourself just because you didn't
get to what you wanted.
And I remember distinctly in I think it was in first year, maybe second early second semester,
I wasn't getting the grades that I needed.
And, you know, in the moment, I wasn't really giving myself the grace of, okay, like, this
is your first time going to university, you might not know exactly how to study or, you
know, how to write a university exam.
It's so different from high school.
Like, I didn't really give myself that latitude.
And so I was seriously considering leaving the program because I was thinking, okay,
well, maybe if I switch now and do, you know, a regular undergrad degree and do co-op, that
would be better in terms of job prospects down the line.
It would be better in terms of maybe one day applying to law school, you know, in the future.
But I, you know, was talking to friends and family about that.
And someone told me, you know, just try.
That's all that matters, right?
That you tried and that you can look yourself in the mirror in a few years and say, okay,
I did the best that I could.
And whether or not I got in, that didn't matter as much in the moment.
It was more of a matter of, okay, like, let's just do our best and try, try to manage the
stress and try to get through this with sanity.
And then you'll figure it out.
Now that's great advice from the both of you.
Yeah.
I think this advice probably applies at any phase and maybe Daphne, you can relate and
Herman as well.
I feel like sometimes along the application process, the process just seems so long and
rejection one year seems just overwhelming the idea of having to wait an entire other
year and like another year of uncertainty to maybe not even get in the next year.
And at least on my age, having taken time to work and come back to school a little bit
older than most and knowing that by time I graduate, I'll be a little bit older than
most.
I feel like when I was applying, doing the calculations in terms of, okay, well, if I
get rejected this cycle, that means I have to wait all the way up until, you know, X,
Y, Z in order to apply again.
And the whole thing starts over and I'll be even older.
But I think I received some good advice that, you know, you can be 30 having taken the shot
a few years back to try to apply, gotten in and you'll be 30 and you'll be a lawyer or
you can sit and ruminate and kind of be afraid to jump and go right in and kind of give it
your all and just take the risk and live with the, I guess, the thrill of that and then
still be 30 and not be a lawyer or perhaps not be where you want to be.
I don't know.
I think it's important to remember that at least, you know, think of the statistics,
the average age of a law school applicant is somewhat young and while a year or two
or three can seem like a really long time in the grand scheme of things, it's really
not.
That's not to downplay the stress associated with that waiting game.
But I think that's something that if I reflect upon, I probably could have tempered more
on my end and would have maybe found useful.
Yeah.
I definitely relate to what the two of you have said, especially the fear of disappointment.
That's what I found to be the hardest part of this whole recruitment and education cycle
is just the fear of disappointment, of disappointing myself, disappointing my family.
And, you know, it was always the fear, for example, as you both have mentioned, of failure
as well and not getting into the school I might have wanted to go to, not getting the
grades I wanted for a certain course, and then just kind of going down this rabbit hole
of anxiety where it's like, well, if I don't get a good enough mark on this course or in
my degree in undergrad, then I can't apply for law school because I'm not competitive
enough.
And so you're thinking that, oh, well, if I don't have the references, I'm definitely
not going to get into law school because if I don't have good references, no one's going
to seek me out as a potential candidate.
And at a certain point, you really do have to face that fear of disappointment or the
fear of failure.
And I guess what you both have said is that it's not always the end all be all.
The decision to get into law school or being accepted to go into law school is not the
end of the world all the time because there's so many different factors that play, economical
factors, the amount of students they can take in a certain year.
All of these play a factor in terms of whether or not you get accepted into law school.
One thing that has really helped me saying throughout this process is that you're not
alone.
You're not alone in this process.
You're not alone in being anxious about getting into law school or what law school might be
like or what your potential career might be like.
There are so many other people, and I would say maybe the majority of people are in the
same position as you, where they're still trying to figure things out.
They're worried, and I think it's just a natural part of this entire journey to law school
process.
But again, as I said earlier, it's really important to have a support system in place
that can be there to uplift you throughout the way, that can hear your worries and concerns
and provide you the support that you need.
But I guess one of my last questions I can ask the two of you is that if you could give
advice to your high school day self, what would you say to them now to prepare them
for law school?
Maybe Daphne will start with you.
Yeah, for sure.
I think Bronte touched on this earlier.
I think it's very, very important to figure out why you want to pursue law, because the
application process is long, law school is long, the recruitment process to get into
a job is challenging, it's stressful, and then a career in law is long, and hopefully
it's long.
And so because it's such a challenging profession, I think it's so important to figure out, okay,
what is the reason I am doing this?
And when you are facing more challenging moments, you can look back at that piece of paper that
you wrote your reason down, look back at it and think and say to yourself, okay, this
is why I'm doing this.
And this is why I am pulling these long hours.
This is why I'm studying so hard and making sure my application looks as good as it can,
because I'm doing this for whatever reason it is.
And I think that that will really help sort of manage those difficult moments, because
let's face it, there will be difficult moments.
Yeah.
Amazing.
And Bronte?
Yeah, I think my answer is similar to Daphne's.
And I think in terms of trying to figure out and articulate the why, one question that
I find helpful that was suggested to me and that I would suggest to other people is, would
you be making your choices and in this case, applying to law school or to intend to enter
the legal profession, would you make the choice if no one would ever know?
If no one would ever know that Bronte is a lawyer or even later down the line that Bronte
works at XYZ firm, would you still be chasing the same thing?
And at least on my end, that's always been a very good prompt or reflection starter to
really figure out the why.
And I find that in cases where the answer would be no, like I really don't think I'd
be chasing this goal if no one else would ever know, I find that those reasons are the
ones that are not sustainable.
And I think there's probably a lot, we can probably all relate to it.
There's a lot of allure to trying to chase something that's hard to get with the goal
of achieving it.
And because of my work background, I ended up with a lot of peers who were trying to
get into medical school.
I had a conversation, a good friend of mine who's now in med school and we were talking
about, is part of the allure to getting a law school acceptance, just the fact that
I've won some sort of race and that out of a big group, I've managed to secure an acceptance,
that's not enough to want to go to law school, just like having a particular job title shouldn't
necessarily at least in my value system shouldn't necessarily be enough to warrant, you know,
choosing a particular practice area or work environment.
So I think that perspective has been helpful and it's one that I would recommend to other
folks who are still in that discernment process about the why.
Wow, this is a really good answer.
Like you two have gave a really good answer.
My less formal tip for my younger self would be find something that you love and stick
with it throughout this entire period of time.
If you love to go swimming, if you love to play badminton, if you love to read, keep
that with you throughout your entire journey to law school, it will keep you sane and it
will keep you balanced.
You know, I feel like so many of us, we rushed during this entire journey, we're always thinking
in the next step like, oh, okay, I got to send this to law school, then I'll do this
and that, then I can go to XYZ firm and then I'll come back for articling.
But I think one thing that I've really learned throughout this process and that I would recommend
to not just my younger self, but anyone looking to go to law school is to remember the things
that you love and take those with you on your journey.
Take time to spend time with your family and friends, take time to go outside and explore
the city.
I think oftentimes we get so caught up in the process that our brains are wired to think
100% about recruitment and grades and all that and those are of course very important,
but I think it's also extremely important to make sure your life is balanced so that
you also get to enjoy life throughout this process and that you're not leaving things
behind that you don't want to just because you want a certain job title or want to work
in a certain career.
And I think, you know, in terms of the mentors I look up to, they're able to achieve both
and that's something that's really inspiring to me is that people don't have to lose the
part of themselves that makes them happy in exchange for a job.
And in the end, the best case scenario is of course if both your job and the things
that you love make you happy as well.
So I would recommend that to anyone who's looking to pursue a career in law.
Now my final question is, and this is kind of similar, but instead of talking to students
who might be thinking go to law school, what would you say to parents who have kids that
want to go to law school?
What would you say to them to kind of give them more confidence in their children's decisions
to pursue this type of career?
What would help them the most in this point of their children's lives?
Sure.
I think on my end, I would advise parents or guardians or any kind of, I guess, person
who is taking interest in the outcome of the law school applicant would probably just be
to, you know, despite best intentions and efforts to really understand the process,
it's okay if you don't because the person involved in the process, the applicant or
the person contemplating becoming an applicant probably doesn't have to figure it out themselves.
It's a black box and that's okay.
So, you know, as much as it might be easy to kind of take on the same stress as the
prospective law student, maybe just trying as hard as it may be to just accept that,
you know, it's unreasonable to ever fully understand the whole situation and it might
be uncomfortable, you know, it's ultimately okay.
So just try to be supportive, I think, with that in mind.
Yeah, I echo all of that.
I think the most important thing that really got me through to where I am today is having
a really great support system in my parents, you know, in my friends and my partner, etc.
And it makes a world of difference knowing that the people around you understand or are
trying to understand and are being patient with you as you're trying to figure out what
you're doing with your life.
And you know, as you're studying for exams super late into the night and might have to,
you know, cancel the dinner or like you can't make a certain event and being understanding
of that because this profession does take a lot of time and it does take sacrifice on
the person doing it but also on the people around them.
And while their patience is not infinite, and I don't mean to say that, you know, you
should take advantage and just, you know, cancel plans all the time and like I would
never recommend that obviously.
But if you have someone in your life that is looking to go to law school or is in law
school, I think the most important thing is to be supportive and to be a person in their
corner championing them and just being someone who can be a safe space.
The person is probably very hard on themselves.
If they're anything like me, and I know a lot of my friends who went to law school also
are like this, where, you know, you're so hard on yourself and you judge yourself so
harshly based on your grades and your performance and you know what job you get during recruitment,
that if you can be the person who can just be so understanding and just a safe place
for them to just be a person that makes a huge, huge difference.
Yeah, and I definitely agree with both of you.
And I think really can be distilled into two words and my recommendation to any parent
or guardian who has a child who wants to go to law school is just this.
Be there.
Be there for your kids throughout this whole process because it will be a long process
and you know, you can take it from me, Daphne and Bronte, we're here today, that it will
be very long, but it's also a very rewarding process and being there for your kids along
the way will mean so much to them.
You know, especially like my mom, she'd been there for me every step of the way and making
sure that I was following everything I needed to in order to get to law school and beyond
and just being there and checking in with your children, asking them how they're doing,
asking them whether or not the choices that they're making align with their interests
and their needs.
I think it's so important to have that support system in place.
And we've talked about support systems a lot throughout this podcast episode already, but
it really is important and crucial to have to have those people in your life that you
can look up to or that you can be that person for your kids to let them know that everything's
going to be okay in time and that you will support them no matter what.
I think throughout all the stress that comes into the journey, it is so, so, so beneficial
to have someone to look up to, like a parent who says that everything's going to be okay
in the end.
But apart from that, those are all the questions I have for the two of you today.
I want to thank you both so much for joining me on this episode of Law Syrup and for having
a little mini high school reunion because honestly, the last time I saw you guys together,
what year was that?
Oh my gosh, probably graduation, wasn't it?
It might've been.
And that was like, was that, well, how many years ago was that?
That's a very revelatory question, Herman.
When did we graduate?
I had the same thought last night.
I think it has been since the high school graduation that all three of us were together.
No, we had that party at Daphne's house.
But that was high school graduation, I think.
The one where we all signed our names on the poster.
Oh, we did.
Daphne, do you sell that poster?
I do actually.
It's in my parents' house.
Oh, that's cute.
Yeah.
It's in my, like, it's in my old bedroom.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Okay.
We'll do an in-person reunion soon one day, hopefully.
But thank you so much again for joining us today.
I think today has been a really good day and a really good episode.
And I hope that this episode can serve as a balm or, you know, something that can encourage
students who might not know where their path might lead yet in terms of their career.
And I hope that listening to this episode and listening to your guys' words, it really
will help them find a little bit more support and guidance along the way to a lot of school.
So thank you so much to you two for joining me today and until the next time.
Thank you so much for having us.
What a treat.
Thank you, Herman.
Yes, thank you.
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Law Syrup.
Law Syrup is produced by me, Herman Wong, and the Ontario Justice Education Network.
For more information, check out ojen.ca and our show notes.
See you next time.