1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,240 Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk with special guests about hot topics in Canadian 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:07,240 law. 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:12,240 This podcast is a co-production with the Ontario Justice Education Network, also known as OJEN. 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:13,240 I'm Herman Wong. 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:20,720 Let's tap in. 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,440 Before we begin, please note that this show is not intended to be legal advice or be a 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,440 replacement for a legal representative. 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,720 Hey everybody and welcome back to the show. 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,040 This week I am joined by two special guests because they are my high school friends, Daphne 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,300 Chu and Bronte Anderson. 11 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:39,760 This week we'll be talking about our journey to law school. 12 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,280 Now all three of us started in the same high school and we all took law as an elective. 13 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:49,320 However, we all made it to law school, but on different, unique paths. 14 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:54,980 Together we talked about challenges, resources, and where to find support along the way. 15 00:00:54,980 --> 00:00:59,040 So without further ado, here's what we discussed. 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,920 So to get things started, let's introduce everybody. 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,640 So how about Daphne, you go ahead and tell us who you are and what you do. 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:06,920 Yeah, absolutely. 19 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:08,820 Happy to be here. 20 00:01:08,820 --> 00:01:14,760 So I'm a litigation associate at a firm called Borden Ladner Gervais and I practice in commercial 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:15,760 and civil litigation. 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:16,760 Amazing. 23 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:17,760 And Bronte? 24 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,160 Daphne, that is a lovely introduction to follow. 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:27,320 I am Bronte and I'm just a rising 2L at McGill here in Montreal. 26 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:30,960 Outside of that, I hail from Stovall, Ontario. 27 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:37,360 I'm obviously now living in Montreal and I had the pleasure of meeting Herman and Daphne 28 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:38,360 in high school. 29 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:39,360 Right. 30 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,840 And of course, you know, right now I am currently done articling. 31 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,880 So right now I'm an incoming associate at a firm called Tork and Main's LLP in downtown 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:49,880 Toronto. 33 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,080 And it's interesting because we all started in high school. 34 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,120 We all took law in high school. 35 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,800 But I guess my first question for both of you is why did you want to actually study 36 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,520 law in the first place during high school? 37 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:01,840 Yeah, absolutely. 38 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:08,520 So I think, you know, for transparency's sake, I initially when I was younger really wanted 39 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,320 to go into sciences. 40 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:15,360 So you know, whether that was to be a doctor, a vet, an optometrist, whatever it was that, 41 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,000 you know, I was certainly interested in that. 42 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,360 And then I took grade 11 chemistry and I'm not sure if Bronte remembers, but that was 43 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,400 a harrowing experience for me. 44 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:31,040 And it just really opened my eyes to the fact that science was not going to be my, you know, 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,040 my path. 46 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:39,200 And so I still wanted a career path that was going to challenge me and be something that 47 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:40,880 would speak to my strengths. 48 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:47,160 And I discovered in probably grade 11, grade 12 that my strengths were going to be in writing. 49 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,840 And so that's kind of how I landed on becoming a lawyer. 50 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,400 And also, I guess for context, I studied in a program where I did my undergrad and my 51 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:56,800 law degree at the same time. 52 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:02,080 So it was a six year program and I studied political science and I got my law degree 53 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,120 kind of within those six years. 54 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:09,200 And so I decided, you know, pretty early on in grade 12 when I applied to this program 55 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,600 that I wanted to be a lawyer and kind of just committed to it. 56 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:13,600 And then here I am. 57 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,600 Amazing. 58 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,640 And we'll go back to your journey at UOttawa for that specific program as well. 59 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:22,080 But Brandi first, why did you choose to study law in high school? 60 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:23,360 That's a good question. 61 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,680 It's also a really good question for you to ask me as I prepare, hopefully for a recruitment 62 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,840 season this upcoming year. 63 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:30,840 It's interesting. 64 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:38,920 I think my answer is similar to Daphne's in the sense that it definitely wasn't the first 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,280 career I thought of or actively tried to pursue. 66 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:49,600 I also was initially drawn to the sciences, particularly healthcare jobs. 67 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,560 And then as you may both remember, I also went through a period of time thinking that 68 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,720 I would be a high school music teacher, then realized that, you know, I don't think I was 69 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:06,400 pursuing the sciences for me truly, but saw a lot of kind of common threads from the idea 70 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,500 of working in healthcare or working as an educator. 71 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:16,840 And I kind of saw those as being something I could achieve and apply in a legal profession 72 00:04:16,840 --> 00:04:21,120 and ended up through a variety of undergraduate experiences, realizing that I actually enjoyed 73 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:26,680 a lot of the other kind of important skills for law school and then a legal career. 74 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:32,380 And I think ultimately, the big ones were probably one, I like writing, but particularly 75 00:04:32,380 --> 00:04:33,380 technical writing. 76 00:04:33,380 --> 00:04:39,640 And that certainly was something I got to kind of hone in my undergraduate degree in 77 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:40,640 health social sciences. 78 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:46,040 And I also really liked the whole kind of relationship forming and relationship maintenance 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,040 aspect. 80 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,880 The idea of working in a very client focused environment, a very collaborative environment 81 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:57,680 was really appealing to me, as well as one in which there's a huge, huge importance of 82 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:58,680 education. 83 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,360 So there's a teaching and kind of counseling aspect. 84 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,680 All of those things were really appealing on my end. 85 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,640 And then quite admittedly, it also seemed like profession with a lot of different job 86 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,680 opportunities and kind of different avenues or environments to work post-grad. 87 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,560 And so I think I certainly entered law school with some starting interests, but they're 88 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,560 obviously still crystallizing. 89 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:27,240 And yeah, I thought it would be fun to do something where overall I knew I was headed 90 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,280 in the right direction and then could still kind of narrow things down. 91 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:31,280 Great. 92 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:35,400 By the way, you mentioned a high school music teacher, the three of us, we used to be in 93 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,480 the band orchestra together. 94 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:38,480 I used to play the clarinet. 95 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,200 Daphne, what did you play? 96 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,160 I played the flute and the piccolo and it was very glamorous. 97 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,440 I had to wear an earplug because the piccolo was so loud and high pitched. 98 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,000 And I think I've actually permanently damaged my hearing because of it. 99 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:53,000 Did you really? 100 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,000 I think so. 101 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,920 And I now have like tinnitus in my right ear that flares every time there are loud noises. 102 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,840 So I blame the piccolo for that. 103 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:02,640 No, Bronte, what did you play? 104 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:03,640 I played trombone. 105 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,040 Daphne, that's funny that you should mention. 106 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:07,440 Maybe it's not funny. 107 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,760 I guess it's not a good thing that it's still an ongoing issue. 108 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:15,400 But when you mentioned the hearing damage, I actually wrote something along those lines 109 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:16,400 in your yearbook. 110 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:21,360 I think I wrote, you know, I hope that the hearing damage resolves itself. 111 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,800 You head off to law school, which is kind of funny. 112 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,000 And then hasn't yeah, hasn't subsided, unfortunately. 113 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,360 Well, that's a bummer. 114 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,360 But I guess the memories still live on. 115 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,380 But going back to just, you know, law in high school, I guess my path was kind of similar 116 00:06:38,380 --> 00:06:43,480 to the both of you because I was very dead set on being a surgeon when I was younger. 117 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:49,040 A lot of it came from me reading a lot of books about like the human body and science. 118 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:50,600 I was like, oh, this is so cool. 119 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,200 And then I did grade 10 science. 120 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:58,120 And do you remember the optics section from like grade 10 science with like concave convex 121 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,120 mirrors and like prisms? 122 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,120 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 123 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,120 No idea what they were talking about. 124 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,320 I mean, I still managed to like survive grade 10 science. 125 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,120 But since that day, I was like, yeah, I cannot be a doctor. 126 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,920 I cannot do anything related to chemistry or physics or biology. 127 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,320 And again, just like the both of you, I was like, you know, I really like to read and 128 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:18,320 write. 129 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,400 So how about we just focus on those skills rather than doing something that I know will 130 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,280 bore me and will probably confuse me. 131 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:31,320 So I think when I saw that law was an option for grade 11, I was like, oh, I'll definitely 132 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,800 do it because it's something that seems like a good career path. 133 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,440 And it's something that generally interested me. 134 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,240 And I'm really glad I took it. 135 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,140 And the three of us, we took law in French immersion. 136 00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:42,140 Is that correct? 137 00:07:42,140 --> 00:07:43,140 Like we all took it in French. 138 00:07:43,140 --> 00:07:44,140 It was, that's right. 139 00:07:44,140 --> 00:07:45,140 Yeah. 140 00:07:45,140 --> 00:07:49,480 So I took law in grade 11. 141 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:50,680 And in grade 12, I did another thing. 142 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:51,680 I did philosophy instead. 143 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,280 But you two, Daphne, you were in my grade 11 French immersion law class. 144 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,760 And were you with Bronte in grade 12 law? 145 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,560 I'm trying to remember. 146 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,000 We probably were in the same class, Bronte. 147 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,000 I think we were. 148 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,000 I think so. 149 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:12,080 And throughout the process, whether you started in grade 11 or grade 12, what were some of 150 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,240 your favorite memories from studying law in high school? 151 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,280 Because I have my own favorite memories, but I was wondering about you guys and what you 152 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,080 guys might have thought of as memorable for those two years. 153 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:23,560 Yeah. 154 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,560 I remember we did the mock trial. 155 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,480 I think that was in grade 11 that we did a mock trial. 156 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:30,480 Okay. 157 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:31,480 Yeah. 158 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:32,480 So it probably was in grade 11. 159 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:39,960 And I remember I was questioning a witness and it was so fun. 160 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,800 I remember it felt like a performance. 161 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,080 It felt like I was kind of acting and whatever, but it was just so much fun. 162 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,680 I think that was probably one of the highlights of grade 11 law. 163 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:56,560 And then I think we also went to the courthouse that year. 164 00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:57,560 And yeah. 165 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:03,480 And I remember it was really fun to go to the courthouse and see a courtroom for the 166 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:04,640 very first time. 167 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:11,320 But I remember sitting there and listening to the lawyers questioning the witness. 168 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,460 I think it was in a criminal trial. 169 00:09:13,460 --> 00:09:17,800 And I remember thinking, wow, this is so incredibly boring. 170 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,160 I can't imagine asking all these questions. 171 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,360 And this is so boring. 172 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,400 But overall, that trip was really, really fun as well. 173 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:31,480 So I remember thinking after that trip, oh yeah, I can totally see myself doing this 174 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:32,480 for a living. 175 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,800 And I can see myself going to court and questioning witnesses and making submissions and that 176 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:38,800 sort of thing. 177 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,480 I remember maybe it was also in grade 11 where we had to film that video. 178 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:43,480 Oh yeah. 179 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:44,480 I remember. 180 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,640 Gosh, that was so fun. 181 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,760 That was crazy. 182 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,720 I probably still have it on my MacBook at home. 183 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,120 I don't even know what that is. 184 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:54,880 I hope it never sees the light of day. 185 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:55,880 Oh, absolutely not. 186 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,440 For those of you who don't know, we had a project, me and Daphne and another friend 187 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,520 of ours, Kristy, we were in a group together and we had to do a final project where we 188 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:09,000 had to do some sort of movie based on something legal related. 189 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:15,080 I don't even know what the prompt was, but we decided to do a home video where we portrayed 190 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:21,080 Madame Garofalo, bless her heart, she's retired now, but we used her as this big criminal 191 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,400 mastermind. 192 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,240 We literally filmed scenes in my basement. 193 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,720 And I remember we took turns going to TD Bank to record scenes of the quote unquote bank 194 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:31,720 robbery. 195 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:32,720 Do you remember that? 196 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,480 Herman, I remember this now that you mentioned the TD Bank. 197 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:40,040 I do remember seeing this cinematic masterpiece and being very envious that I had not taken 198 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:41,040 the class with you. 199 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,480 I mean, we did a really good job. 200 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,880 I think we got like an A or something on that assignment, Daphne and I. 201 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:47,760 We did really well on that assignment. 202 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:48,760 It was fun. 203 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:49,920 It was camp. 204 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,280 I loved it. 205 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,200 And again, would I ever rewatch it or post it online? 206 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:55,200 Absolutely not. 207 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,680 But it was a fun assignment. 208 00:10:56,680 --> 00:11:01,060 And again, Daphne, when you talk about the courtroom trip, that is like the experience 209 00:11:01,060 --> 00:11:05,920 now that I share on any interview that I have when people are like, why did you want to 210 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:06,920 study law? 211 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,000 And it's a true story because we went downtown, I think to 361 University Avenue, the courthouse 212 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,000 there. 213 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,320 And I remember the criminal trial there because it was the trial for the Eaton Center shooting 214 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:17,920 in the food court. 215 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,000 And I don't know if you remember this, Daphne, but we met with a judge that day. 216 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,760 And the story that really captivated me was that she said that if you want to go to law 217 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,820 school, do something fun for your undergrad. 218 00:11:29,820 --> 00:11:33,920 And then she said she did opera singing at York University. 219 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,000 And I thought that was very inspiring because clearly she was like, look, if you want to 220 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,240 go to law school, do something fun for your undergrad. 221 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,080 It doesn't have to be legal related. 222 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,480 Just do something fun where you can get good grades. 223 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,500 And then if you really want to go to law school, that can still be your path. 224 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:49,960 So that's something that really stuck with me from our grade 11 experience. 225 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,480 Bronte, how about you? 226 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,680 Did you have any good memories from grade 12 law class? 227 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:54,680 I do. 228 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:56,280 I remember. 229 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:02,900 So by the time I got to grade 12, I was in my going to be a music teacher phase and had 230 00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:08,800 already kind of become frustrated with the sciences, had a very similar experience to 231 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,800 the one that Daphne just described. 232 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,000 Daphne was with grade 11 physics. 233 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:19,120 And I remember starting to read, I guess, our assigned materials in grade 12 law. 234 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:24,000 And I remember thinking to myself, okay, this is also very analytical. 235 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,520 It's fun to think about rules. 236 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,160 It's fun to think about problem solving in a very, you know, kind of structured way. 237 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,500 But it's also fun that these are not scientific laws or formulas to remember. 238 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:36,160 It's not a bunch of numbers to crunch. 239 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,040 It has nothing to do with a parabola. 240 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,120 At least the stuff that we were learning didn't have to do with a parabola. 241 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,320 And I think that's kind of where it clicked that, you know, I think I already had an idea 242 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:51,640 of this, but it kind of, I think was a bit of an aha moment that the kind of technical 243 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:57,880 approach to problem solving that I found, I guess, intellectually fulfilling in a way 244 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:03,640 could be achieved outside of just science and math, which is definitely a kind of a 245 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,200 belief or a strongly held belief on my end up into that point. 246 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,440 And again, strongly held beliefs that again, kind of evolved throughout undergrad, where 247 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:18,200 I kind of followed a similar path of analytical and critical thinking, but not necessarily 248 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,840 scientific formulas and theorems and whatnot, but rather through the social sciences. 249 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,680 And then I mean, we also went on a courthouse visit in grade 12, I think, and that was pretty 250 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:29,160 fun as well. 251 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,280 Herman, you were there for sure, because we sat together. 252 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,640 I wasn't there, I didn't take grade 12 law. 253 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:35,640 Did you not? 254 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:36,640 No, I took the OSFIE. 255 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,640 Oh, then maybe it was, well, Daphne was there as well. 256 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:40,640 How interesting. 257 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:41,640 Like the Mandela effect. 258 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,440 You just remember me everywhere you go in high school. 259 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:44,440 Just... 260 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,640 No, I was definitely at the courthouse because I remember, Daphne, you were definitely there. 261 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,880 I'm trying to think who else we were sitting with, but I remember that I hadn't eaten enough 262 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,720 for breakfast that day and my stomach was just growling so noticeably and so horribly. 263 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,280 I was very self-conscious about that. 264 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,960 So I definitely remember it for that reason, as well as for, of course, the enriching educational 265 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,920 experience that came along with the excursion. 266 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,880 But let's move on now to the law school application process. 267 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,800 Now, Daphne, you did your own special program at UOttawa, which kind of deviated from the 268 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,960 traditional thing where you did an undergrad program first and then apply to law school 269 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:21,960 with the LSAT. 270 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,240 So why don't you tell us about the special program at UOttawa that you took that lasted 271 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:27,240 for six years? 272 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,440 Yeah, absolutely. 273 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:34,040 So this is a program where you apply straight out of high school, just like any regular 274 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,320 undergrad program. 275 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,720 And you can do either poli sci or you can do business. 276 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:45,960 So I chose poli sci because I genuinely never really had that much of an interest in doing 277 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,160 a BCom straight out of high school. 278 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,480 And I always thought that I would do poli sci after I discovered that I wasn't going 279 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:55,480 to be a doctor. 280 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,880 I was like, okay, I think poli sci is kind of the way to go. 281 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,840 I really liked taking civics and careers all day enough in grade 10. 282 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,100 So that's kind of how I ended up deciding on poli sci. 283 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:08,980 And so in this program, I should also note that it's all in French. 284 00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:12,080 So UOttawa doesn't offer this program in English. 285 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,380 And luckily, I did French immersion all throughout elementary school and high school. 286 00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:20,760 So I was pretty comfortable with doing this program in French. 287 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:26,760 So you start with your undergrad, you do two years of poli sci or your business degree. 288 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,760 You have to maintain an 8.0 GPA. 289 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,720 So that's an A minus GPA for your first two years. 290 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,640 And then after that, you start law school in your third year. 291 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:44,960 And then for your third to your sixth year, you do a combination of poli sci, business 292 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,920 courses and then your law courses. 293 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:53,440 So typically in a year, I would do six or seven law courses and then the rest would 294 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,320 be my undergrad courses. 295 00:15:55,320 --> 00:16:02,800 It's a bit strange because you do these law courses and I vividly remember going to finishing 296 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,880 my crim class and then immediately after I went to Canadian politics or something. 297 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:12,520 And it's just so different the way that you're taught in those classes that it was such a 298 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:17,260 jarring switch, but it was interesting. 299 00:16:17,260 --> 00:16:21,000 And then at the end of the six years, you graduate with your undergrad and your jurors 300 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,000 doctor. 301 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,000 That's amazing. 302 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,400 So you do six years and you're going to get your jurors doctor by the end of it. 303 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,280 I personally took the more, I guess, I don't want to say more conventional, but I guess 304 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,600 more people do an undergrad. 305 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,560 They might work a bit like Bronte did. 306 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,080 But for me, I did my undergrad in journalism at Carleton University. 307 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,680 So I did that for four years and then I took the LSAT and that's how I went to law school. 308 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,480 But Bronte, how about you tell us about how you found out about the law school application 309 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:48,480 process? 310 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,200 Like how did you find out about the LSAT, all the different schools you could apply 311 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,120 to, how to enroll in those schools, and also what made you decide to work before you applied 312 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,400 again for law school? 313 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:00,400 Sure. 314 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,760 I always knew that not just at the time that I actually decided to apply, but I had a long-standing 315 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,320 awareness of this thing called the LSAT. 316 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:15,520 I knew it was the law school equivalent of the MCAT and also knew that submitting an 317 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,200 application, at least in Ontario, was very similar, again, to the med school application 318 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:25,280 process and our undergrad application process where it's all kind of one centralized system. 319 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:30,920 Definitely did a lot of Googling, a lot of reading Reddit, a lot of the CanLaw forum 320 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:37,560 online to kind of get people's tips and tricks and get an understanding of timelines and 321 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,040 just how much of a black box it really seems to be. 322 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:46,960 Also did the typical attend information sessions, especially during COVID when a lot of them 323 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,280 were online, that was helpful to hear different school perspectives and how the application 324 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:52,280 process works. 325 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:57,080 Then, of course, also had people like yourself, Harman, to look to who had found through the 326 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,200 process successfully not that many years ago. 327 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,560 That was super helpful to get people like yourself who could kind of give an honest 328 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:05,560 take. 329 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,360 I think I threw out ideas about my personal statement and CV and whatnot as I was going 330 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:14,000 through the process, it was helpful to hear what your approach was. 331 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,360 Then you also asked why it's a time off to work as well, right? 332 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:19,360 Yeah. 333 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:24,120 That one's definitely multi-pronged, that answer. 334 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:31,000 I would say that the first reason was probably to gain some sort of work experience, at least 335 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,440 in the field that I studied. 336 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,360 As you know, after my undergrad, I did a master's in public health. 337 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:42,720 I really liked the topics, so wanted to get some kind of applied public health experience, 338 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,440 as well as just experience in the workforce. 339 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,920 I always worked multiple jobs throughout my undergrad and my master's, but it was nice 340 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,640 to just be an employee for once and to not be also a student at the same time. 341 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,640 Then I guess a few other reasons as well. 342 00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:01,120 I think when the decision that I wanted to get a law degree really kind of solidified 343 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,400 in my mind, I found that I was having difficulty articulating why in words. 344 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,000 To me, that was not a good sign. 345 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,080 Let's, for lack of better terms, kill two birds with one stone. 346 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:11,080 Let's get some work experience. 347 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,280 Let's also take some time to kind of just figure out the interests, be able to at least 348 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:23,920 articulate them, because I think that represents perhaps a lack of crystallized goals internally 349 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:24,920 on my end. 350 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,080 So that was a helpful exercise. 351 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:32,120 Then I also saw that taking time to work could also have some advantages in terms of building 352 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:37,960 a more diverse CV, to put it, I guess bluntly, there was also a huge financial aspect, taking 353 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:44,040 time to not only gain experience, but also be able to save up funds to afford tuition. 354 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:49,800 I also was aware that law school is very competitive at an admission, and so I may not have control 355 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:55,160 over where I would end up, and that could involve significant personal expenses, whereas 356 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,160 I was living at home all through my undergrad and master's. 357 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,640 So yeah, a variety of reasons. 358 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:07,360 Yeah, you mentioned Reddit and the CanLawForum, which honestly was kind of how my mom and 359 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:10,920 I would find out about the law school application process. 360 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,200 For those of you who don't know, CanLawForum, if you used to go by another name, I think 361 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:20,880 the old website got deleted or something, but it's called CanLawForumNow. 362 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:26,700 It's basically a forum online where users post about GPAs and what will it take to go 363 00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:32,080 to law school, and they also post things about what life is like when you're in law school, 364 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:37,120 so recruitment processes for summer jobs and stuff like that, the bar exam. 365 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:40,160 But I honestly found the website to be quite useful. 366 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,360 People I've talked to were kind of divisive on it. 367 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,600 They were like, don't look at the website because if you do, you just end up comparing 368 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,260 yourself unhealthily to other people in the same position as you. 369 00:20:50,260 --> 00:20:55,160 But for me, because I didn't have any mentors in the legal profession when I was growing 370 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:01,560 up or in high school, so Reddit and the CanLawForum, or the older version of it, was really my 371 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,760 only way of kind of finding out what steps I can take, what other people have done, and 372 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:12,280 how to have a successful journey to law school and doing all the right things to get me to 373 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,280 where I wanted. 374 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:20,200 But, you know, I wish I think in high school I took more liberties and asked for more help 375 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,600 from our guidance counselors. 376 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,600 If I just asked them what the way to go to law school would be, they would probably have 377 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,480 a better sense of where to direct me, but that's on me for not really benefiting from 378 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:32,480 it. 379 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,840 So I recommend to all the listeners, especially if you're in high school right now, if you 380 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,600 are thinking about a career in law, you can always ask your guidance counselors for help 381 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,120 or career counselors, and I believe that they will be able to show you what a potential 382 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:47,480 path to law school might be like. 383 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,440 But given that we're now in a different position now, we're no longer in high school. 384 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,240 I've just finished my article, and Daphne, you're already working as a litigation associate. 385 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,760 Bronte, you're still in law school. 386 00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:58,920 I have a question for you guys. 387 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,200 Do you think you need to know what kind of law you want to do before you decide to go 388 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,200 to law school? 389 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:05,200 Goodness gracious. 390 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,200 I hope not. 391 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,200 I hope not. 392 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:08,200 Otherwise, yeah, I hope not. 393 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:15,560 Otherwise, that's concerning on my end, because I certainly don't have it all figured out 394 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:20,400 at the moment, but I'm curious, Daphne, to hear your answer first. 395 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,440 Categorically, no. 396 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:30,840 Yeah, absolutely no to your question, Herman, just because even throughout law school, I 397 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,480 had no idea what I wanted to practice. 398 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:43,520 So I summered and I article at BLG, and in my summer, I thought I had figured it out, 399 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:49,280 thought I wanted to be a litigator, but wasn't too sure, because the work you do as a student 400 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:54,480 and the work you do as an associate, it's so different. 401 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,920 As a student, you're working on very narrow issues. 402 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:03,400 You're researching, you're drafting memos, you're maybe drafting pleadings and factums 403 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:09,160 and other court documents, and you're only on the file for that very specific reason, 404 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,840 whereas as an associate, you're on that file from beginning to end. 405 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,960 And so the work that you do is just so different. 406 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,360 And so I thought I wanted to be a litigator when I was a summer student, went back to 407 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:27,000 law school for my third year and discovered that I liked tax law. 408 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,520 And so I thought, okay, maybe I'll be a corporate tax lawyer. 409 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:30,520 I don't know. 410 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:37,040 And then so I came back as an articling student, tried tax, didn't love the corporate tax work 411 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,800 as much as I thought I would, and then ended up liking the tax litigation work. 412 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,200 And so I was like, okay, maybe I'll be a tax litigator. 413 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:50,120 And then I helped out with a complex commercial litigation trial in, I want to say December 414 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:55,520 of, yeah, December of 2023 or 2022. 415 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:01,000 And then decided that I probably wanted to be a commercial litigator, but then, you know, 416 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,000 tried health law and I really liked that. 417 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,120 And so it really was a matter of trial and error for me to figure out at this point that, 418 00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:12,440 okay, I know I want to be a litigator and I know I want to do commercial litigation. 419 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:18,200 I like health, I like tax, but it took me a long time to get to this position where 420 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,200 I can comfortably say that I want to do these things. 421 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,000 And I certainly think, you know, when you're applying to law school, I don't think, you 422 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,260 know, you really have a sense of what it is like to be a lawyer in a specific area. 423 00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:35,640 So I think, you know, it's best to keep your mind open to all the possibilities, you know, 424 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:42,080 try everything, try the crim stuff, try the family stuff, try the commercial stuff. 425 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,360 You never know until you try. 426 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:44,560 Yeah, I agree. 427 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,000 When I was in high school, I mean, of course, I thought about being a lawyer. 428 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:55,040 I wanted to go to law school, but my perspective of what I saw myself doing in the legal profession 429 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,480 has taken more twists and turns than a season of the white load is okay. 430 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,040 I mean, in high school, I was like, look, I just want to go to law school. 431 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:02,480 I don't know what I'm going to do. 432 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,840 I just want to go to law school and hopefully there I can figure it out. 433 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,920 So going into law school, I was like, you know, criminal law seems fun, right? 434 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,360 That's what you see on TV most of the time. 435 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:14,680 And I did a couple of criminal law things. 436 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,320 I had a great job working in my one L summer at a criminal defense firm. 437 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,360 And then I did a criminal law clinic with the Crown's office in downtown Toronto. 438 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:24,400 And that was great. 439 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:31,000 But I think the more I had this type of experiential type of thing in my life, I kind of decided 440 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,400 that maybe criminal law was not for me. 441 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:39,100 And having the opportunity to experience all these different other types of courses like 442 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:44,240 business law and administrative law, they've really helped me kind of shift my thinking 443 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,720 and be more open-minded to other types of law. 444 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,400 So again, like with you, Daphne, when Art articles, I didn't really know what I really 445 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,400 wanted. 446 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:53,600 Litigation was always in the back of my head. 447 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,640 But then I also did a trial in construction law. 448 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,160 And that really kind of solidified everything for me where I love just being in court. 449 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:07,000 I love the type of presentations that you do, how much oral advocacy is needed. 450 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,360 So I thought that really fit me and that's why I decided to return as an associate in 451 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:12,800 the litigation field. 452 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,040 But I personally believe that, you know, if you're in high school and you don't know what 453 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:21,640 you want to do when you're a lawyer or working in a legal related field, I don't think that's 454 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,840 a really big issue because you'll figure it out as you go. 455 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,200 And the more experience you get, you'll get more knowledge of the things you're good at 456 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,520 and also what you want to do as a potential career. 457 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,900 But along the way, have you guys had any mentors that you can look up to during your journey 458 00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:37,900 to law school? 459 00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:40,500 Was there anyone you could ask for help or guidance? 460 00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:45,360 Or were you someone like me who just kind of turned to CanLawForum and read it? 461 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:52,360 I wish I knew about CanLawForum when I was in high school, like when I was in grade 12 462 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:58,520 or the predecessor to CanLawForum because I also, I'm a first generation lawyer. 463 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:04,640 I don't really have anyone in my family or kind of in my family, friends circle or anyone 464 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:10,760 in my life before I applied to my program that I could ask those questions to. 465 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:17,080 And I wish I did because I think there are so many things that you really need to talk 466 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,900 through with someone who's been there and who's gone through the experience of going 467 00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:25,200 to law school and being a lawyer and figuring out that path. 468 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,320 For me, it was a lot of Googling, a lot of reading about what it's like to be a lawyer 469 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:35,400 and what it's like to go to law school and being very, very afraid of the Socratic method 470 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,560 and like all that stuff, but never really having anyone specific to talk to you other 471 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,280 than obviously family and friends and stuff to kind of talk through these things, but 472 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,120 no one specifically who had gone through that. 473 00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:48,120 Right. 474 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:49,120 How about you Bronte? 475 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:55,680 I think I relied mostly on online sources and the generosity of some strangers that 476 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:01,560 I messaged on LinkedIn for application related information. 477 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,840 And then like I said, Harbin, talking to folks like you who had done the process very recently, 478 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:12,400 on my end, I think where the mentorship was particularly valuable was in really clarifying 479 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,440 and confirming my motivations to kind of enter the profession to begin with. 480 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,760 And so it wasn't necessarily obviously just lawyers that I had the pleasure of speaking 481 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:27,760 with, but even just family friends who had particularly privileged to know some women 482 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,800 that I think is very strong and were very successful in managing a very busy career 483 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,760 as well as family life and friendship and all these other important relationships. 484 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:42,120 And it was wonderful to have some meaningful conversations and honest conversations with 485 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:48,800 them to talk about what are the advantages of pursuing that type of lifestyle and equally 486 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,040 what are some of the disadvantages and how you kind of reconcile that with your value 487 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:58,240 system in order to hopefully set yourself on a track towards fulfillment in a bunch 488 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,840 of domains of your life, career being a really big and important one, at least in my value 489 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:03,840 system. 490 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,080 But also I was very privileged to have mentors during my undergrad. 491 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:14,520 I worked at the same clinical research job five, six years and was really lucky to work 492 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,560 closely with a clinician scientist. 493 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,360 And I think she really exemplified to me what hard work looks like. 494 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,960 I think there's a lot of aspects of what I perceived as her approach to career life and 495 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,120 excellence in her career. 496 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,440 I think there are a lot of things from that that I try to emulate. 497 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:33,440 That's great. 498 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,960 And those relationships are very important, you know, because you really need a support 499 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,360 system when you go on this journey to law school, whether it's family or friends, you 500 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,360 really need those type of people to kind of lift you up along the way because it can be 501 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:45,880 a very stressful process. 502 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,400 You know, there's so many things to keep track of, whether it's all the types of recruitment 503 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,000 activities you have to participate in or having good enough grades to get into law school 504 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,880 or getting good references. 505 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,800 It's very important to have a support system in place. 506 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,440 But now that you're at the places that you are looking back now, what was the hardest 507 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,680 part of getting to law school in the first place? 508 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,480 Maybe Bronte, we'll start with you. 509 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,480 Sure. 510 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,440 But on my end, I think the big one is just uncertainty. 511 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:19,920 I think it's in my mind, it almost seemed like a bit of a blessing and a curse that 512 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,560 the path to law school doesn't have to be linear. 513 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:28,640 And there aren't, you know, super, super strict criteria or boxes that one has to check in 514 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,240 order to kind of guarantee a good likelihood of acceptance. 515 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,680 So while that provided a wonderful amount of room to kind of explore other interests, 516 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:43,960 in a way, I think, at least on my end, I found myself, you know, always questioning, okay, 517 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,800 well, how will this look on a CV? 518 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,680 Or, you know, what opportunity could this lead to in the future? 519 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,240 Or, you know, how would an admissions person perceive this? 520 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,040 And I think I think I like to hope that I try to keep a good rein on that. 521 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,740 But I think it was still somewhat of a like an emotional or psychological burden that 522 00:31:03,740 --> 00:31:06,400 took away from the fun or the joy of applying. 523 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,560 Yeah, I think it's just the big uncertainty. 524 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,960 But as hard as it is sometimes to remember that, you know, we're not defined by an acceptance 525 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,040 or a rejection or a job title. 526 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,800 And it sounds really trite. 527 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,200 But at least that's something that I kind of had to wrestle with a little bit along 528 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,200 the way. 529 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,200 And I think I still am. 530 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,200 How about you, Daphne? 531 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,120 What was the hardest part about this whole journey to law school for you? 532 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,120 Yeah. 533 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:38,600 I think what Bronte is saying about the uncertainty of everything really applied to my situation 534 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,080 as well, just because so, you know, to get into law school from my program, I had to 535 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,120 maintain a certain GPA. 536 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:51,680 And so that meant, you know, starting day one of first year of university, every assignment, 537 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:58,400 every quiz, every exam, every, you know, participation point, what have you, mattered. 538 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:06,840 And so that was a very, very stressful, you know, burden to carry for two years. 539 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,840 You know, for me, it was a matter of bringing my best to every single assignment or every 540 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,280 single thing that I was graded for. 541 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:22,040 And so, you know, when I would get maybe not the best grade on something, it would really 542 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:27,080 make me feel very uncertain about my prospects of getting into law school. 543 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:33,040 And so I really had to figure out a way to manage that stress of everything. 544 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,720 And it was so great to have such a good support system. 545 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,120 And I have had a great support system, you know, throughout my undergrad and throughout 546 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,120 law school. 547 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,840 And I think that was really, really key. 548 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,200 And it helps put things into perspective and helps you remember that this is not the be 549 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,640 all end all of your life. 550 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,280 Like, okay, just because you don't get into law school doesn't mean you are a failure 551 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,600 or, you know, all these other words that you might call yourself just because you didn't 552 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,440 get to what you wanted. 553 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:07,040 And I remember distinctly in I think it was in first year, maybe second early second semester, 554 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,560 I wasn't getting the grades that I needed. 555 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,040 And, you know, in the moment, I wasn't really giving myself the grace of, okay, like, this 556 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,920 is your first time going to university, you might not know exactly how to study or, you 557 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,720 know, how to write a university exam. 558 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:22,920 It's so different from high school. 559 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,440 Like, I didn't really give myself that latitude. 560 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,240 And so I was seriously considering leaving the program because I was thinking, okay, 561 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:37,560 well, maybe if I switch now and do, you know, a regular undergrad degree and do co-op, that 562 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,280 would be better in terms of job prospects down the line. 563 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:47,400 It would be better in terms of maybe one day applying to law school, you know, in the future. 564 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,440 But I, you know, was talking to friends and family about that. 565 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,600 And someone told me, you know, just try. 566 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,600 That's all that matters, right? 567 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,800 That you tried and that you can look yourself in the mirror in a few years and say, okay, 568 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,540 I did the best that I could. 569 00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:07,120 And whether or not I got in, that didn't matter as much in the moment. 570 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,440 It was more of a matter of, okay, like, let's just do our best and try, try to manage the 571 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,800 stress and try to get through this with sanity. 572 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:16,800 And then you'll figure it out. 573 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,560 Now that's great advice from the both of you. 574 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,560 Yeah. 575 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,520 I think this advice probably applies at any phase and maybe Daphne, you can relate and 576 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:25,520 Herman as well. 577 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:31,360 I feel like sometimes along the application process, the process just seems so long and 578 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:37,120 rejection one year seems just overwhelming the idea of having to wait an entire other 579 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:42,600 year and like another year of uncertainty to maybe not even get in the next year. 580 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,800 And at least on my age, having taken time to work and come back to school a little bit 581 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,320 older than most and knowing that by time I graduate, I'll be a little bit older than 582 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,320 most. 583 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,480 I feel like when I was applying, doing the calculations in terms of, okay, well, if I 584 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,960 get rejected this cycle, that means I have to wait all the way up until, you know, X, 585 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,680 Y, Z in order to apply again. 586 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,560 And the whole thing starts over and I'll be even older. 587 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:10,520 But I think I received some good advice that, you know, you can be 30 having taken the shot 588 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:16,560 a few years back to try to apply, gotten in and you'll be 30 and you'll be a lawyer or 589 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:22,000 you can sit and ruminate and kind of be afraid to jump and go right in and kind of give it 590 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,480 your all and just take the risk and live with the, I guess, the thrill of that and then 591 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,840 still be 30 and not be a lawyer or perhaps not be where you want to be. 592 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:32,840 I don't know. 593 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,360 I think it's important to remember that at least, you know, think of the statistics, 594 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:42,600 the average age of a law school applicant is somewhat young and while a year or two 595 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,960 or three can seem like a really long time in the grand scheme of things, it's really 596 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:47,960 not. 597 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,880 That's not to downplay the stress associated with that waiting game. 598 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,720 But I think that's something that if I reflect upon, I probably could have tempered more 599 00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,760 on my end and would have maybe found useful. 600 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:02,760 Yeah. 601 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,120 I definitely relate to what the two of you have said, especially the fear of disappointment. 602 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:12,240 That's what I found to be the hardest part of this whole recruitment and education cycle 603 00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:16,720 is just the fear of disappointment, of disappointing myself, disappointing my family. 604 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:21,520 And, you know, it was always the fear, for example, as you both have mentioned, of failure 605 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,440 as well and not getting into the school I might have wanted to go to, not getting the 606 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,680 grades I wanted for a certain course, and then just kind of going down this rabbit hole 607 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,960 of anxiety where it's like, well, if I don't get a good enough mark on this course or in 608 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,560 my degree in undergrad, then I can't apply for law school because I'm not competitive 609 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:40,560 enough. 610 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,160 And so you're thinking that, oh, well, if I don't have the references, I'm definitely 611 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,520 not going to get into law school because if I don't have good references, no one's going 612 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,480 to seek me out as a potential candidate. 613 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,680 And at a certain point, you really do have to face that fear of disappointment or the 614 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:55,680 fear of failure. 615 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,920 And I guess what you both have said is that it's not always the end all be all. 616 00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:04,220 The decision to get into law school or being accepted to go into law school is not the 617 00:37:04,220 --> 00:37:08,440 end of the world all the time because there's so many different factors that play, economical 618 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,480 factors, the amount of students they can take in a certain year. 619 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,360 All of these play a factor in terms of whether or not you get accepted into law school. 620 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,720 One thing that has really helped me saying throughout this process is that you're not 621 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:20,720 alone. 622 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:22,520 You're not alone in this process. 623 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,480 You're not alone in being anxious about getting into law school or what law school might be 624 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,100 like or what your potential career might be like. 625 00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:34,240 There are so many other people, and I would say maybe the majority of people are in the 626 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:37,400 same position as you, where they're still trying to figure things out. 627 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,800 They're worried, and I think it's just a natural part of this entire journey to law school 628 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:42,800 process. 629 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,360 But again, as I said earlier, it's really important to have a support system in place 630 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,680 that can be there to uplift you throughout the way, that can hear your worries and concerns 631 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,000 and provide you the support that you need. 632 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,600 But I guess one of my last questions I can ask the two of you is that if you could give 633 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,520 advice to your high school day self, what would you say to them now to prepare them 634 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:04,520 for law school? 635 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,520 Maybe Daphne will start with you. 636 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,560 Yeah, for sure. 637 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,560 I think Bronte touched on this earlier. 638 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:20,360 I think it's very, very important to figure out why you want to pursue law, because the 639 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,760 application process is long, law school is long, the recruitment process to get into 640 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:32,360 a job is challenging, it's stressful, and then a career in law is long, and hopefully 641 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:33,480 it's long. 642 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:40,360 And so because it's such a challenging profession, I think it's so important to figure out, okay, 643 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,840 what is the reason I am doing this? 644 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,480 And when you are facing more challenging moments, you can look back at that piece of paper that 645 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,360 you wrote your reason down, look back at it and think and say to yourself, okay, this 646 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,000 is why I'm doing this. 647 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,860 And this is why I am pulling these long hours. 648 00:38:56,860 --> 00:39:02,600 This is why I'm studying so hard and making sure my application looks as good as it can, 649 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,840 because I'm doing this for whatever reason it is. 650 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:13,120 And I think that that will really help sort of manage those difficult moments, because 651 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,440 let's face it, there will be difficult moments. 652 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:17,440 Yeah. 653 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:18,440 Amazing. 654 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,440 And Bronte? 655 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,480 Yeah, I think my answer is similar to Daphne's. 656 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:28,960 And I think in terms of trying to figure out and articulate the why, one question that 657 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:34,840 I find helpful that was suggested to me and that I would suggest to other people is, would 658 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,520 you be making your choices and in this case, applying to law school or to intend to enter 659 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,840 the legal profession, would you make the choice if no one would ever know? 660 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,600 If no one would ever know that Bronte is a lawyer or even later down the line that Bronte 661 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,280 works at XYZ firm, would you still be chasing the same thing? 662 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,440 And at least on my end, that's always been a very good prompt or reflection starter to 663 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,600 really figure out the why. 664 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:07,480 And I find that in cases where the answer would be no, like I really don't think I'd 665 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:13,080 be chasing this goal if no one else would ever know, I find that those reasons are the 666 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,480 ones that are not sustainable. 667 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,320 And I think there's probably a lot, we can probably all relate to it. 668 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,360 There's a lot of allure to trying to chase something that's hard to get with the goal 669 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,200 of achieving it. 670 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:30,240 And because of my work background, I ended up with a lot of peers who were trying to 671 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:31,720 get into medical school. 672 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:36,920 I had a conversation, a good friend of mine who's now in med school and we were talking 673 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:43,800 about, is part of the allure to getting a law school acceptance, just the fact that 674 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:50,880 I've won some sort of race and that out of a big group, I've managed to secure an acceptance, 675 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,680 that's not enough to want to go to law school, just like having a particular job title shouldn't 676 00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,640 necessarily at least in my value system shouldn't necessarily be enough to warrant, you know, 677 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,800 choosing a particular practice area or work environment. 678 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,680 So I think that perspective has been helpful and it's one that I would recommend to other 679 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,160 folks who are still in that discernment process about the why. 680 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,000 Wow, this is a really good answer. 681 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,560 Like you two have gave a really good answer. 682 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,680 My less formal tip for my younger self would be find something that you love and stick 683 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,080 with it throughout this entire period of time. 684 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:29,480 If you love to go swimming, if you love to play badminton, if you love to read, keep 685 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,800 that with you throughout your entire journey to law school, it will keep you sane and it 686 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,320 will keep you balanced. 687 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:40,120 You know, I feel like so many of us, we rushed during this entire journey, we're always thinking 688 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,280 in the next step like, oh, okay, I got to send this to law school, then I'll do this 689 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,120 and that, then I can go to XYZ firm and then I'll come back for articling. 690 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,320 But I think one thing that I've really learned throughout this process and that I would recommend 691 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,720 to not just my younger self, but anyone looking to go to law school is to remember the things 692 00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:58,760 that you love and take those with you on your journey. 693 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,400 Take time to spend time with your family and friends, take time to go outside and explore 694 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:04,680 the city. 695 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,120 I think oftentimes we get so caught up in the process that our brains are wired to think 696 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:14,760 100% about recruitment and grades and all that and those are of course very important, 697 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,240 but I think it's also extremely important to make sure your life is balanced so that 698 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:23,200 you also get to enjoy life throughout this process and that you're not leaving things 699 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,560 behind that you don't want to just because you want a certain job title or want to work 700 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,240 in a certain career. 701 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:33,840 And I think, you know, in terms of the mentors I look up to, they're able to achieve both 702 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,040 and that's something that's really inspiring to me is that people don't have to lose the 703 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,120 part of themselves that makes them happy in exchange for a job. 704 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,920 And in the end, the best case scenario is of course if both your job and the things 705 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,520 that you love make you happy as well. 706 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,000 So I would recommend that to anyone who's looking to pursue a career in law. 707 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,940 Now my final question is, and this is kind of similar, but instead of talking to students 708 00:42:56,940 --> 00:43:01,920 who might be thinking go to law school, what would you say to parents who have kids that 709 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,000 want to go to law school? 710 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,840 What would you say to them to kind of give them more confidence in their children's decisions 711 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,340 to pursue this type of career? 712 00:43:10,340 --> 00:43:14,080 What would help them the most in this point of their children's lives? 713 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,080 Sure. 714 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:21,320 I think on my end, I would advise parents or guardians or any kind of, I guess, person 715 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:27,600 who is taking interest in the outcome of the law school applicant would probably just be 716 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:33,080 to, you know, despite best intentions and efforts to really understand the process, 717 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:39,720 it's okay if you don't because the person involved in the process, the applicant or 718 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:45,360 the person contemplating becoming an applicant probably doesn't have to figure it out themselves. 719 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,160 It's a black box and that's okay. 720 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:54,560 So, you know, as much as it might be easy to kind of take on the same stress as the 721 00:43:54,560 --> 00:44:01,560 prospective law student, maybe just trying as hard as it may be to just accept that, 722 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,480 you know, it's unreasonable to ever fully understand the whole situation and it might 723 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,360 be uncomfortable, you know, it's ultimately okay. 724 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,200 So just try to be supportive, I think, with that in mind. 725 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,160 Yeah, I echo all of that. 726 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,520 I think the most important thing that really got me through to where I am today is having 727 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:26,680 a really great support system in my parents, you know, in my friends and my partner, etc. 728 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:34,000 And it makes a world of difference knowing that the people around you understand or are 729 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,840 trying to understand and are being patient with you as you're trying to figure out what 730 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,440 you're doing with your life. 731 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,680 And you know, as you're studying for exams super late into the night and might have to, 732 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:49,980 you know, cancel the dinner or like you can't make a certain event and being understanding 733 00:44:49,980 --> 00:44:56,400 of that because this profession does take a lot of time and it does take sacrifice on 734 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,480 the person doing it but also on the people around them. 735 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:07,800 And while their patience is not infinite, and I don't mean to say that, you know, you 736 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,400 should take advantage and just, you know, cancel plans all the time and like I would 737 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,840 never recommend that obviously. 738 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,360 But if you have someone in your life that is looking to go to law school or is in law 739 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:26,880 school, I think the most important thing is to be supportive and to be a person in their 740 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:33,320 corner championing them and just being someone who can be a safe space. 741 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,080 The person is probably very hard on themselves. 742 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:41,680 If they're anything like me, and I know a lot of my friends who went to law school also 743 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:46,180 are like this, where, you know, you're so hard on yourself and you judge yourself so 744 00:45:46,180 --> 00:45:53,400 harshly based on your grades and your performance and you know what job you get during recruitment, 745 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:59,280 that if you can be the person who can just be so understanding and just a safe place 746 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:05,280 for them to just be a person that makes a huge, huge difference. 747 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,560 Yeah, and I definitely agree with both of you. 748 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,480 And I think really can be distilled into two words and my recommendation to any parent 749 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,640 or guardian who has a child who wants to go to law school is just this. 750 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:18,640 Be there. 751 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,440 Be there for your kids throughout this whole process because it will be a long process 752 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,680 and you know, you can take it from me, Daphne and Bronte, we're here today, that it will 753 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:31,480 be very long, but it's also a very rewarding process and being there for your kids along 754 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,680 the way will mean so much to them. 755 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,640 You know, especially like my mom, she'd been there for me every step of the way and making 756 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:42,560 sure that I was following everything I needed to in order to get to law school and beyond 757 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:47,680 and just being there and checking in with your children, asking them how they're doing, 758 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,280 asking them whether or not the choices that they're making align with their interests 759 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:52,280 and their needs. 760 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,660 I think it's so important to have that support system in place. 761 00:46:55,660 --> 00:46:59,600 And we've talked about support systems a lot throughout this podcast episode already, but 762 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,320 it really is important and crucial to have to have those people in your life that you 763 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:08,320 can look up to or that you can be that person for your kids to let them know that everything's 764 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,760 going to be okay in time and that you will support them no matter what. 765 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:16,960 I think throughout all the stress that comes into the journey, it is so, so, so beneficial 766 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:21,360 to have someone to look up to, like a parent who says that everything's going to be okay 767 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:22,940 in the end. 768 00:47:22,940 --> 00:47:26,760 But apart from that, those are all the questions I have for the two of you today. 769 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,120 I want to thank you both so much for joining me on this episode of Law Syrup and for having 770 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:37,280 a little mini high school reunion because honestly, the last time I saw you guys together, 771 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:38,280 what year was that? 772 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,160 Oh my gosh, probably graduation, wasn't it? 773 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:42,160 It might've been. 774 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,280 And that was like, was that, well, how many years ago was that? 775 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,280 That's a very revelatory question, Herman. 776 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,280 When did we graduate? 777 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:49,280 I had the same thought last night. 778 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,040 I think it has been since the high school graduation that all three of us were together. 779 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,800 No, we had that party at Daphne's house. 780 00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,440 But that was high school graduation, I think. 781 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,400 The one where we all signed our names on the poster. 782 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:01,400 Oh, we did. 783 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,840 Daphne, do you sell that poster? 784 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:04,920 I do actually. 785 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,240 It's in my parents' house. 786 00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:07,720 Oh, that's cute. 787 00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:08,720 Yeah. 788 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:10,720 It's in my, like, it's in my old bedroom. 789 00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:11,720 Oh my gosh. 790 00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:12,720 Yeah. 791 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:13,720 Okay. 792 00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:16,240 We'll do an in-person reunion soon one day, hopefully. 793 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:18,440 But thank you so much again for joining us today. 794 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,960 I think today has been a really good day and a really good episode. 795 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:27,240 And I hope that this episode can serve as a balm or, you know, something that can encourage 796 00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:32,240 students who might not know where their path might lead yet in terms of their career. 797 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:36,200 And I hope that listening to this episode and listening to your guys' words, it really 798 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:41,200 will help them find a little bit more support and guidance along the way to a lot of school. 799 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,560 So thank you so much to you two for joining me today and until the next time. 800 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,160 Thank you so much for having us. 801 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,160 What a treat. 802 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:49,160 Thank you, Herman. 803 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,840 Yes, thank you. 804 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,280 Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Law Syrup. 805 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:59,160 Law Syrup is produced by me, Herman Wong, and the Ontario Justice Education Network. 806 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,800 For more information, check out ojen.ca and our show notes. 807 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:08,720 See you next time.