Law Syrup - S1E4 Transcription [Herman Wong] (0:01 - 1:24) Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk with special guests about hot topics in Canadian law. This podcast is a co-production with the Ontario Justice Education Network, also known as OJEN. I'm Herman Wong, let's tap in. Before we begin, please note that this show is not intended to be legal advice or be a replacement for a legal representative. Welcome back to the show. On today's episode, you'll hear my chat and reunion with one of my former professors when I studied journalism at Carleton University in Ottawa. Her name is Professor Janice Tibbetts, and over the years, she has had an impressive career as a reporter. One of the things that makes Janice unique is her work in justice reporting, writing stories about what's happening in our courtrooms for the public to read. I was so happy to get a chance to talk with Janice about her career, but also a course I took where she taught me the basics on justice reporting, and which also gave me a great primer for law school. Here's what we discussed. Today we have a very special guest because she was a former professor of mine. She is Janice Tibbetts, and I haven't seen her in a long time, so this is a fantastic reunion. Janice, we are so happy to have you here with us today to chat about your life, your career, and also what justice reporting is. So Janice, it's great to have you here, and I'm excited to reconnect with you. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (1:24 - 1:29) Well, thank you for inviting me. It's really a thrill to see you, and I'm really very happy to be here. [Herman Wong] (1:30 - 2:11) I know. It's so exciting to see you because we were chatting before the recording, and we were saying that the last time I saw you was before the pandemic in 2019, which is five years ago. It doesn't seem like that long ago, but like, I mean, we had a whole pandemic in between, but I'm definitely interested to ask you questions about how your class has changed during the pandemic, afterwards, and also what you guys are teaching right now in journalism school. I'm curious. So let's talk about all those things here today, but before we get started, we'll go back in time to when you first started in journalism. So when you first started your career, why did you think journalism was the path that you wanted to pursue? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (2:12 - 3:40) Well, okay, I didn't come to it right away, I must say. Now I always liked to write, so that was probably my entry into journalism. Like many kids, one of my hobbies was writing when I was growing up, and I had a reel-to-reel tape recorder, and I liked to interview friends, but I never really connected it to journalism, to tell you the truth. I just knew that I liked to write. So my path took me into an English degree. And then from there, I started to travel, and when I traveled, I was really poor. So I thought, I want to make money, so journalism is not for me. I am going to go into business. So I tried out some business courses, and I didn't like them, and they didn't like me. They weren't for me. I always thought, well, I do like to write. All the things I liked to do, I thought, these are all journalism. What I hadn't put into place was really the part about the importance of journalism. It's importance to democracy, the importance of reporters, all of those things came later. But I got my entry into it really was through really loving to write, loving to talk to people, loving people. [Herman Wong] Wow, amazing. Where did you go to school for journalism? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] I went to King's in Halifax. So the University of King's College, a really small program. It was a one-year program. They don't have it anymore. It's a post-degree program, a one-year journalism degree from it. So small class, 24 people, and yeah, it was one of the best things I ever did. [Herman Wong] (3:40 - 3:48) And how was it there? What kind of assignments were you doing at that time? Because I've had my experiences at Carleton, but I was wondering what it was like for you in Halifax. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (3:49 - 4:40) Well, do you know what, Herman? In some ways, it was a lot the same. It was on a much smaller scale, and I was thankful for that, because I think on a much smaller scale, I got to do a lot of different things. But the core courses were pretty much the same, because when you go to journalism school, you're learning how to, what's introductory reporting? What's media law? How do you do in-depth reporting? What are some specialized reporting courses? So the core is the same, and just basic journalistic writing. So a lot of courses were the same, but we didn't have things that you would have now. Like, it's really changed. Like, there's just so many options that have to do with diversity and inclusive journalism. All kinds of things like that did not exist. There were lots of other courses, too, that, you know, we have lots and lots of options at Carleton. We did not have those options. So we really just took radio, TV, print, and maybe an elective or two, but not very much. [Herman Wong] (4:41 - 4:49) I see. And after journalism school, did you get a job immediately afterwards? Or were you still kind of debating whether or not to pursue it as a career? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (4:50 - 5:02) Oh, I was pretty determined after that one year of journalism school that that's what I was going to do. And I started a full-time job at a daily in Halifax called the Halifax Daily News. It's not around anymore. Three days after I graduated. [Herman Wong] (5:03 - 5:04) Oh, what, three days? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (5:05 - 5:35) Yeah, yeah. So I finished on a Friday and started on a Monday. Actually, it may have been four days. I might have finished on a Thursday, but it was right away. It was right away. So I got that job. And I really just got that job because no one really wanted it for the most part. A few people did, but the pay was low, like, really low. And you had to have a car. So I thought I'm going to probably go in debt to work here, but I didn't care. I was just so happy to have a job that I just couldn't leave it. I had to pinch myself to believe that I was actually living that life. [Herman Wong] (5:36 - 5:38) So what kind of stories were you doing at that time? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (5:39 - 5:51) I did a little bit of everything. That was the beauty of starting at a small newspaper. I got to do everything. And it was so exciting doing it all for the first time. In fact, my very first story I ever did was going to court. [Herman Wong] (5:51 - 5:51) Really? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (5:51 - 5:54) In this day, that would actually be unheard of. [Herman Wong] (5:54 - 5:55) Right, yeah. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (5:55 - 6:28) Now, I did shadow somebody, but I got there and I saw how reporters work. It was an arraignment for someone who was accused of murder. And anyway, it was really the courtroom was packed with reporters. And I just looked around and I thought, oh, yes, this is really what I want to do. I could see them talking to the lawyer afterwards. I could see everything they did, so in a group setting. And I just thought, yeah, this is something that I'm really interested in. Not court reporting, per se, but journalism. I found it was why me. [Herman Wong] (6:29 - 7:20) Yeah, I think that's kind of what drew me to journalism school as well. As you mentioned, you like to write, and when I was in high school, I thought I wanted to be a doctor. And then I did biology and physics and said, you know what? That's not really what I want to do for the rest of my life. So I really enjoyed things like English and also things like philosophy. I like to read and write. So I decided to go to journalism school because, as you said before, some of these facts are super interesting. The places you find yourself are delicious to observe. And I really liked being in those situations where things are happening and you're just there to write down and report on it and explain it to other people. That's what really captivated me about this profession as well. So in terms of justice reporting, what was kind of your first official foray into that field? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (7:21 - 8:38) Oh, you know, it took me a long time to get into that field. So I like I started, you know, it started out I was doing everything. And truthfully, when I started out, I really wasn't doing very much justice reporting. I was doing business reporting. I was doing politics. I was doing all kinds of things. But I always had this always looking out for injustice. So I was always thinking this is I was drawn to social issues and injustice. And this is what I spent a lot of my time reporting on. And I had beats. I did the labor beat. I did the social issues beat. I did an Indigenous beat. I did lots of different beats before I got to justice reporting. So it took me about 10 years into my career before a justice beat came up. And this was at Canadian Press on Parliament Hill in Ottawa. So I had been around then. I'd worked at two newspapers, I'd already worked for the Canadian Press out west. I had covered trials and court periodically. And I was really captivated by this. This is humanity at its most vulnerable. And it just really was something that really captivated me to tell those stories of what was happening in courts for better or for worse for the people who were there. But it turned out in their favour a lot of the time.So that's really it's the beat came open. And I grabbed it because it's something that was always like a thread through everything I had done for a long time. [Herman Wong] (8:39 - 8:56) And can you talk a little bit about what it's like to report on the law? Like what kind of previous knowledge do you really need as a journalist, former journalism student going into this field? Did you need to like read up on a couple of things? Or could you just go in and learn just by doing these stories more and more? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (8:57 - 10:22) Yeah. Jill, that's a really good question. The way I did it because I was a daily news reporter, and it was really just doing what you were had to do that day. I learned it pretty much all on the job just through going and doing what journalists do, asking the questions to get the answers that you need. And I found it in some ways it's helpful not to have a good grounding in legal issues because you're saying, I don't know what that means. Could you please explain that to me in plain terms so that I can explain that to people? And that I found was really helpful. It was helpful for me. I'm the first reader or the first filter of it. And if I don't understand it, other people aren't going to understand it. So most reporters who come to justice reporting and legal reporting don't have a legal background. I've come to believe being in a journalism school that you do need to know something. And it's very helpful. It serves your readers to be able to ask more in-depth questions and translate those into plain language to give them what they need to make sense of the issue. So I think I was probably doing it that way. I was broad brush for a very long time. But then you start to, you know, you run into issues time and time again. And you start to say, I know this. I've reported on this several times before. It's that snowball effect that after a while, you get it. But, you know, it's deep learning curve at first. [Herman Wong] (10:23 - 10:38) Oh, for sure. And when was the time where you finally realized you're like, yeah, I'm comfortable with this. I know what I'm doing. And this is what I'm doing. And this is something that I can see doing forever in the future. Like, was there a time where you were like, yes, I feel knowledgeable. I feel prepared going into a courtroom. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (10:38 - 12:36) I always felt comfortable in a courtroom. I always did from the beginning, not necessarily justice reporting, because those were all kinds of other things. And I should say a big part of what I did as a justice reporter was covering the Supreme Court of Canada. That's a whole different beast than going into a trial court, because a trial court really is a recounting of story for the most part. And it's pretty understandable for the most part, compared to the Supreme Court of Canada, where you basically you're writing down everything that happens. Then you go through your notes and you look, OK, what are they trying to say here? What are the themes that emerge? You do all the things that reporters do. So it's pretty much an understandable level. I had done enough of that over, you know, my 10 years of pretty much general reporting that by the time I came to Ottawa, so, you know, and started covering the Supreme Court of Canada and the national justice beat, I had 10 years of experience under my belt. So that paired me to cover in the Supreme Court, which still, again, was another steep learning curve, because at that stage you're dealing with there are no trials. There are no witnesses. These are lawyers talking about legal concepts. Right. And you go, well, it took a while to catch on to that, but not not a super long time to tell you the truth, because, again, you know, I would read up on, you know, there's so much material in a case. So the Supreme Court of Canada, you can get all of the legal arguments beforehand. You can go and look at the record. You can get all of these things. So I would just read them all before I came up and by reading them all and they're OK, I can go into this comfortably. If I was just thrown into it, I would just be actually not comfortable at all. And a lot of reporters had to do that. They have to like they're just sent over to cover the Supreme Court on a day when they're not covering, you know, the Conservatives or the Liberals or something like that. But I was fortunate to have a dedicated beat and I am very thankful for that. [Herman Wong] (12:36 - 12:55) That's great. And can you tell me a little bit more about your writing process? So you talked to me about reading all the materials from the Supreme Court. So how do you deal with all this information? How do you condense that into a readable product? And how do you deal with looming deadlines? Because I imagine that there's a certain amount of pressure to get things done at a certain time. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (12:56 - 14:34) Pretty much, yes, because I worked in daily journalism. So for the most part, I was dealing with daily deadlines. And the most I would have would be a couple of days. And even with a couple of days or a few days ahead of time, I would be doing other things in between. But I would go over and just read the factums, call the lawyers, say, can you if there was something that was troubling me and I really didn't understand, can you explain this to me? And sometimes just the quotes from lawyers were better than what was written in the documents a lot of times. So I'd say, you know, what is this? Why should we care about this? Summing this up, well, you know, can you tell everyone what this is about and why we should care? And truthfully, the documents, just like anything, in a lot of ways, tell the person's story, like the facts of the case, their backstory. And then why this case got to the Supreme Court of Canada. That's about people and telling a story. And then there just are key legal issues. So it's really like anything that you do in journalism, where you're looking for key quotes that explain things, identifying the issues, looking for who says this the best here? Who says this the best here to encapsulate that issue? Am I fair? Have I actually covered both sides of this? Which is something you would do in doing a setup piece and covering a hearing. So that's pretty much the process. And I just keep things, keep track, like I just go through, let's go through this one, take notes, let's go through this one, then just go through all of my notes. And it's actually a story does come together. But it's just really, really paying attention to actually seeing the big picture and not worrying too much about the weeds, because there are a lot of weeds and all of those documents and kind of legal reporting. [Herman Wong] (14:35 - 14:40) So based on your experiences covering the Supreme Court, were there any stories over the years that really stood out to you? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (14:41 - 16:29) Covering the Supreme Court? Oh, yes, my gosh, no, I covered probably hundreds of Supreme Court decisions. And I'm just thinking of some really big ones from the Supreme Court of Canada, I covered a lot Robert Latimer, who was convicted of second-degree murder for killing his severely disabled daughter. I covered one on Delwyn Vreed, who you may know or remember from our class, we talked about these in a class that you took that I taught. Delwyn Vreed who was fired from his job at Christian College, he was gay in Alberta, and there was no he was fired from his job. And he had no recourse through Alberta's human rights legislation. And he went to the Supreme Court and got that changed. One's on I'm just thinking really, really, you know, same-sex marriage went to the Supreme Court of Canada, the legalization of cannabis went to the Supreme Court of Canada. One of my favourites, too, was just this woman; it was a great, interesting case about a woman in BC, her name was Tani Niren, and she wanted to be a firefighter. And she was a firefighter. And she could do everything, but she couldn't run the one-mile distance in the time that she had to to be a firefighter. And she argued that it was discriminatory about she was just in good shape as men were, but she had a different VO2 max. So I found that just a highly interesting case. And she won. And I visited the Canadian Human Rights Museum in Winnipeg a few years ago, and I was at a Canadian Association of journalists conference. And a story that I wrote on Tani Niren was in that museum really wrote on same sex marriage was in that museum. And I was just in awe of how I got to have a front-row seat at all of these things. And they made it into the Human Rights Museum. And I was just thinking, what a privilege it had been. [Herman Wong] (16:29 - 16:46) I mean, yeah, as a journalist, you get to have, as you were mentioning, like a front-row seat to all of these major events that are going on and getting to observe firsthand these things that are truly historic in nature and getting to write about them and telling them to the public. I think that's an amazing privilege to have as a journalist, for sure. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (16:46 - 16:57) Yeah, it really is. Should add to that part of the beat is a lot of it are things that are happening and you go to, but an awful lot of the beat is also finding things. [Herman Wong] (16:57 - 16:58) Oh, yeah, for sure. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (16:58 - 17:19) Keeping on top of things and how, where, what are the trends? And can I go through any documents, either public documents, court to other court documents or other public documents? And can I find things like little grains of things that people don't know that should be exposed? And that's a lot of beat coverage at all issue-based things and, I guess, rooting out injustices. [Herman Wong] (17:19 - 17:37) Right. So here's my question for you, because I know in journalism school, you know, a lot of times we had to really keep in touch with what's happening in the community and looking out for stories. But when you're doing justice reporting, would you be assigned stories? Or was it kind of a mix of being assigned topics to cover and looking for stories yourself? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (17:38 - 18:58) It was a mix. Absolutely. Sometimes, we're assigned things because they were going on. So you, of course, you would go cover them. Yeah, so covered a lot. So it wasn't just covering the courts. When I covered the justice beat, I was covering the mix, you know, the interplay between politics and legal issues and legislation, what legislation needs to be changed, what's going on in the justice department, how are politicians reacting to these things that are happening in the court and what are they doing about it? A lot of it was just talking to people. So the people, you know, in those days, you could actually phone lawyers in the justice department and they would talk to you about things that that ended about governments tend to not do that anymore. But at the time, we could do so. And I guess just people who are watching who watch legal issues, so getting in touch with them and what's going on. What do you think, you know, any kind of like victims organizations, what's going on, what's coming up? So really just keeping in touch with people as well and date booking all kinds of things like this is something to remember, you know, that's coming up in six months. OK, keep an eye on that thing. This is something that's developing. We're going to committee meetings on Parliament Hill and you see things in their infancy, things that people are starting. They haven't quite bubbled up to the stage that everybody is really, really paying a lot of attention to them yet. But you see them growing up through the process. [Herman Wong] (18:59 - 19:06) So I have to ask, after all your time reporting on the courts, was there ever a time where you were like, hmm, should I go to law school? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (19:09 - 19:32) That is such a good question. But I never thought that I'd like and still I have not, I still think, was that a path I should have taken? But I always, always had in the back of my mind. Another thing I love to write, but I also always loved the idea of teaching since I was a child. So that was always something to me as a name. [Herman Wong] (19:33 - 19:45) So speaking of teaching, let's move on to the course that you currently teach at Carleton, which I had the pleasure of participating in. So how did you switch from reporting to teaching? Was your first job teaching at Carleton as well or did you teach elsewhere? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (19:46 - 20:05) I taught one course at Carleton. That was my first job while I was doing my masters at Carleton. So I left daily reporting, which I've done for quite some time, over 20 years. So I thought it's time for a change. And I want to teach. So I'm going to have to get my master's because I didn't. So get your master's, Herman. Well, now you have a master's in law degree, right? Is that a master's degree? [Herman Wong] (20:06 - 20:07) It's a JD, a Juris Doctor. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (20:07 - 20:11) Yeah. Oh, OK. Anyway, so anyway, there's a master's as well, isn't there? [Herman Wong] (20:12 - 20:13) yeah, there is. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (20:13 - 21:05) Yes, there is. OK. So anyway, I thought I have to get my master's. And while I was getting my master's at Carleton, I started teaching a course. Then I taught for two years at Concordia University. And then I started teaching at Carleton. So that was my path after, you know, I just jumped right into my master's after being in journalism for a long time. And fortunately, got a job pretty quickly after finishing my master's. And really just being willing to commute from Ottawa to Montreal to do that. But I was pretty motivated to do this. [Herman Wong] So you commuted every day? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] I commuted some terms. I commuted not every day, but on the days that I taught courses. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that was those are busy times because I had a small child at the time. And anyway, we did it. Yeah, we did a lot to make that happen. But it was worth it. [Herman Wong] (21:06 - 21:10) Right. And the course you teach right now at Carleton, was that the first course that you taught? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (21:11 - 23:01) No, no. I taught a lot of others first. And in fact, I teach actually six courses every year. But this one was one that the chair at the time, Susan Harada, this was in 2017. And Susan Harada, who was the program head, also had covered the Supreme Court of Canada and was highly interested in it. So she suggested I develop a course, a specialized reporting course on covering the Supreme Court of Canada. It doesn't exist anywhere else in the country. A lot of people don't get to cover the Supreme Court of Canada. Although surprisingly, there are a lot of students who have actually taken that course who do from time to time cover the Supreme Court. But I always thought of it as a course. It's covering the Supreme Court of Canada. It's learning how to translate, though. And I probably said this many times when you were in the course, that it's taking really complex documents and ideas and translating them into plain, understandable language that brings what's happening in the Supreme Court of Canada to the average person who's reading. And I thought that's a skill that you can learn, use for anything. Taking the diabolically complex and trying to translate that into very plain, understandable language that people get. So a lot of that is like the Supreme Court of Canada just happened to be the beat we were covering because it's accessible. Everything's released in advance, where it would be really hard because of the way courses work. And you have a course outline that you give out at the beginning of the term. You can't be completely reliant on trial courts when things change over time. So that's the Supreme Court of Canada. And it's interesting. There are some really, really amazingly interesting cases. And there always are.It's the court that keeps on giving in terms of issues. And I've taught it for seven years now. And every year, we cover an interesting hearing. [Herman Wong] (23:01 - 23:08) And when you first started this course, what were some of the hurdles that you kind of had to overcome? Like, were there any kinks you had to work out at the beginning? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (23:09 - 24:40) Well, I think one of the things is with a new course, people just don't know what it is. And I think, covering the Supreme Court, will I ever cover the Supreme Court? And it's competing with all kinds of other courses too. So it's really sort of, how do I tell people about the course? How do I sell this course to people? How do I teach a really good course? So people who take it, like you, will say to people in the next year, this is a good course. So a lot of that is just every year, I've got feedback from students. What worked and what didn't for you? So it's always, I sort of know the bones of it have stayed the same, but it gets tweaked every year to, can I try to do things to make it fun too? Like we have a Charter Geek Challenge after a course, a module on the Charter of Rights and its impact on the Supreme Court's impact on the Charter of Rights. And we have a team challenge. So I try to make some of that, have fun things. So like, I'm trying, going to introduce a game that has to do with legal terminology next year. So I'm just thinking of more than hurdles, I think, how do I make it better? And how do I make it accessible to students and engage them in a way that they want to possibly pursue this? Or even think that it's something that they can do. Because if you go into journalism, you are going to run into the courts at one time or another. And it's just being empowered to know that I can go and find a court document and I can read that and I can use the skills that I've learned to write about that. [Herman Wong] (24:40 - 24:48) Right. And honestly, taking your course was great because truth be told, and I'm going to be honest with you, before I took your course, I had never read a court case before. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (24:49 - 24:52) And yeah. Why would you have, you know? [Herman Wong] (24:52 - 25:17) And I remember there was like one class that we took, I think you were telling us how to read a Supreme Court case. You were like, okay, well, here's the headnote. All right. Here's the style of cause. Here's what all the parties are. Here's the little blurb that you need to read to get a summary. And then you can look at all the paragraphs. And I thought that was super helpful because honestly, like I said, I had never read one before. So I went to law school. It was like, oh, okay. Because of Janice's class, I know how to do this now. So it's great. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (25:17 - 25:35) Yeah. Well, it is just something, basic things like that, or why would you have read one? And it's really, you know, it's just they're laid out in a logical way and just go through that. So not taking any of that sort of stuff for granted, that anybody has ever read that or knows the terms or anything. It is specialized reporting. [Herman Wong] (25:36 - 25:36) Right. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (25:36 - 25:40) But in a lot of ways, you still are using your reporting skills that you've learned too. [Herman Wong] (25:41 - 25:46) Yeah. And it's good to have the foundation of your journalism background thus far, because it is a, I assume it's still a fourth year course. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (25:47 - 25:49) Is a fourth year and a graduate course. That's right. [Herman Wong] (25:49 - 26:17) Right. So you've had three years of developing your writing skills, your research skills. And I think coming into it, even though I had a little bit of a knowledge about the law beforehand, it was still super helpful to have those skills and apply them to how to report on the courts as well. And speaking of fun things, you always take your students on a trip to the Supreme Court of Canada, myself included. And recently I saw, I think on LinkedIn, you posted the photo with you and your students at the court. When was that? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (26:18 - 26:20) That was, okay. We went twice this term. [Herman Wong] (26:20 - 26:20) Okay. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (26:21 - 27:29) Once was in January, when we went and did a tour of the court. And then we talked to the executive legal officer, actually the deputy executive legal officer, assistant, her name is Renee. Anyway, Renee actually talked to say, this is what we do. This is the media relations that we do for the most part. So that happened in January. So it's always fun to do that because a lot of people, one of the first questions I ask in the class is, what do you know about the Supreme Court of Canada? And people know surprisingly little. It's so different than in the US where the judge's names are known. And the court is really, really, it's covered in a different way in the US. And it's something that actually toils away comparatively in relative obscurity here in Canada. People don't know very much about the Supreme Court at the beginning. So I say, where is it? Does anyone know where it is? So that's the base level. So going to the Supreme Court is great because most people have never been there before. So it's exciting. And we get to go in the courtroom lots of times. Maybe I remember having a photo of you in the court. [Herman Wong] (27:29 - 27:30) Oh, yeah, there was. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (27:30 - 28:08) In the courtroom. So we do that. So that's just a familiarization with the court, which makes it easier when we go back to cover a hearing or a decision, but usually a hearing. That's something that everyone has done and they've been in the courtroom. So then we're there to cover the hearing. And we've prepared before covering the hearing. You do a set piece on the hearing. We've talked to the lawyers in the case. So we do all of that before we get to that. That's a difficult assignment. So that's the last assignment before our big project that we always do at the end of the term. [Herman Wong] (28:08 - 28:23) And I remember the cases that we covered. I think, again, like you said, we did a tour first. I believe that was maybe in October. And then November, we went to an actual hearing. And that was, I believe it was for the Genetic Nondiscrimination Act back in the day. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (28:23 - 28:24) It was. [Herman Wong] (28:24 - 28:57) Yes. And I remember sitting there and it was actually quite packed that day inside the courtroom. And for the listeners who don't know, it was basically a case, a referendum, so to speak, about how companies can't force individuals to give access to their genetic tests like DNA. Because sometimes if you're genetically predisposed to having an illness, some people might not hire you. But it was great. I love being there at the Supreme Court and hearing people speak. So I felt very humbled to be able to go there. And of course, with you to guide us. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (28:57 - 29:12) That was an amazingly cutting edge issue. It was. But it was a complicated case.I remember it was a reference. And there were all kinds of tentacles that made it politically complicated. So you were a great class to be able to decipher that. [Herman Wong] (29:13 - 29:21) I think I remember before, I think we were talking about it in our classroom. And we were just kind of like, what is the Genetic Nondiscrimination Act? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (29:22 - 29:40) And it was a reference. And it was a reference that the government had initially, Liberals had initially supported. Then they didn't support. And there were just a really, really complicated case. But a really important issue. So as long as you can see the issue through the trees, then anyway. [Herman Wong] (29:40 - 30:19) Exactly. And as you mentioned before, is taking all of this complex information and making sure it's accessible to people who are going to read it. And I think that applied to me in law school as well. We have a lot of readings in law school. And many times you're trying to build what we call a summary book, just your personal notes. And a lot of it is making sure you take these documents and turning it into like three paragraphs. How do you do that? So I thought journalism school was a fantastic way to prepare myself to do that in law school. And it's definitely still continued to help me even with the work that I do at the firm I'm at right now, where you take big volumes and make them simple and easy to understand. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (30:20 - 30:28) Absolutely. I actually remember in your year, so that was the fall of 2019. We had a lawyer who came in to talk about a case and his name was Paul Champ. [Herman Wong] (30:28 - 30:29) Right, yes. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (30:29 - 30:47) And actually had taken journalism at Carleton before he went to law school and became a lawyer. And I- [Herman Wong] Really? I didn't know that. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] I remember him saying, I can tell a story. I can write basically briefs. I can do all of those things. I can condense things into three paragraphs because I went to journalism school. [Herman Wong] (30:47 - 30:48) I agree. I agree with Paul. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (30:48 - 30:50) Say that again, Paul. Say that again, Paul. [Herman Wong] (30:51 - 30:58) And I remember he was there. I remember he came to our class, I believe. And I believe one of the litigants was on Zoom, I believe. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (30:58 - 30:58) Yeah. [Herman Wong] (30:58 - 31:04) And that was for Frazier, the one with the RCMP pension plans, correct? Yes. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (31:04 - 31:11) Which turned out to be a very big win for them and a very big case. It had to do with women and entitlement to RCMP pensions. [Herman Wong] (31:11 - 31:20) And I believe Paul went on. I think I remember seeing him in the news. Remember the Freedom Convoy? I believe he was a lawyer in charge of- The class action lawsuit, right? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (31:20 - 31:20) That's right. [Herman Wong] (31:20 - 31:23) Yes. Yes, absolutely. So that was wild. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (31:23 - 31:38) And actually another lawyer who came to our class, that same class, Emily Taman, she is also a lawyer involved in that. So they're always so generous with their time, actually. A lot of lawyers come to the class and they appear on Zoom and it's really great. [Herman Wong] (31:39 - 32:11) Well, no, it's great because, I mean, those were really the first times that I ever really talked to lawyers one-on-one. And even with that big assignment that we had at the end. So I did my assignment on self-represented litigants at the Supreme Court of Canada. And I remember calling lawyers from, I think, Manitoba. And that was the first time where I'm like, wow, like I'm asking a lawyer questions about the law, which I've never done before in my life. So again, it was a really nice introduction to the world of law and a great way to kind of take that first step towards law school as well. And I had a great time writing that article. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (32:12 - 32:13) And it was published in The Citizen. [Herman Wong] (32:13 - 32:27) It was. It was. I was so happy to have it published. Yeah, the Ottawa Citizen. And of course, my friend Lauren, she had hers published as well. And she wrote about the gowns Supreme Court of Canada justices wear, which is a really fun topic. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (32:28 - 32:38) It really was. Yeah, those were two great stories. That was really awesome. And I actually saw a similar story to that in your story in the Globe and Mail about three or four months ago. Herman Wong wrote that first. [Herman Wong] (32:40 - 32:59) Well, let's talk about the pandemic because our course, I mean, the one I took was in the fall of 2019. So that was just a few months before the world shut down. I was wondering, how did your course change during that time? I mean, I don't think you could have went to the Supreme Court, but was there like a virtual option? Like, how did the course take place during that time? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (33:00 - 34:13) It did. We did it online. The academic year 2020-21 was all online, including that course. And we adapted. It wasn't ideal. We covered a decision that year, which, you know, they released the decision and we just looked at it in class and they had to write about it. We did a virtual tour of the Supreme Court instead of going to the Supreme Court. We didn't get that experiential learning in terms of hands-on physically going to the court, which is such a highlight to me of the course because you're there. Nothing's like being there. It still, it worked. Someone said in the end, I got out of it what I wanted to get out of it because we did do still, we did all of the things that we normally do. We covered a leave to appeal decision in real time, when the court decides on Thursdays, whether it's going to take on cases or not. So we did that online. We covered a decision when it came out. So we all did that. You know, we were able to do it online and debrief in the classroom. We did, you know, end of term stories, just like you did. So, but it just was the dynamic of that year was completely different. But, you know, you find ways to make it work. And it wasn't all a train wreck as I was anticipating that it might be. It actually turned out fine. [Herman Wong] (34:13 - 34:46) I also kind of wanted to ask about just the business of journalism in general and how that has progressed over the years since I left. I graduated in 2020. And I remember when I even joined in 2016, that was when we were talking about things like digital tools, Instagram, different forms of storytelling online. But at that time, I don't think we even discussed the issues concerning like artificial intelligence at all. So I was wondering like, how has the world of journalism changed since I left journalism school in 2020? Like, what kind of topics are you talking about right now in terms of where it's progressing? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (34:46 - 35:15) Yeah, well, actually, those are really good questions. We are trying to find our way. Things that we would have spent quite a bit of time on like social media, things that now we're not really focusing on that very much at all. So because I don't even feel comfortable in a practical way of telling students I have to be on Twitter or anything like that. That's just not, you know, it's just something now that we just don't do. AI, absolutely. Not only, okay, last year, it was AI. How do we catch cheaters? [Herman Wong] (35:15 - 35:16) Oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (35:17 - 36:51) But then we're realizing by the end of the year, it's more than how do we catch cheaters? How do we embrace AI? Because these students are going to have to embrace AI. This is the reality of the, you know, future business or newsroom, at least newsrooms. This is the reality of it. And we're trying to figure out our way on that. And it can be just little things on a case by case basis. What do we do if somebody takes a photo and wants to turn it into a work of art for something? We do this, like, what are the ways that we can use AI in a positive learning sort of way, as opposed to how do I take a big shortcut and get AI to write my story for me? So we're really struggling with it. Not struggling, maybe that's not the word, but it's really very topical. So something that actually our program, our program's head is planning a conference on it right now. AI and journalism. So it's really something that is very top of mind. So I guess one of the things too, when you talk about, you know, we talk about the industry, you know, you talk about how the industry's changing so dramatically too, and it really is. And it's, you know, there's a lot of it that's discouraging, but the industry, the news industry is not journalism. And they're two very different things. And it's really just trying to keep in mind that journalism is going to survive. The industry as it is, is not going to survive, but we've got all kinds of smart people, millennials, who are going to figure out a way to make it work. I don't know what that is. I know we have lots of different ideas, everybody, but it's just, everybody's grappling with those. [Herman Wong] (36:52 - 36:54) Right. Where do you get your news from today? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (36:55 - 37:31) I get my news from CBC. I have subscriptions to the Globe and Mail, the Guardian, well, the Guardian is free, and the Ottawa Citizen. Those are the main places I get my news. I get Apple News, which I shouldn't, I know it's bad for me because it filters and tells me what I should be reading. But I do have subscriptions to lots of magazines. That's not news, but I get to read lots of interesting things. So, but news is generally, I get mine from traditional news outlets, really for the most part, having CBC on as much as I can. And truthfully, the Globe and Mail and the Citizen are my go-to, my main reads. [Herman Wong] (37:31 - 37:43) And I think for me personally, I also read, CBC is a big one. Sometimes I leave CP24 on in the background, just to listen to what's going on. I try to listen to some podcasts as well to learn about the news too. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (37:43 - 37:43) Absolutely. [Herman Wong] (37:43 - 38:03) But yeah, a lot of it also comes, I know this is going to be really bad, but a lot of my news comes from Twitter, or I guess X, I should say. But it's hard because you have to make sure that it's not something that's filtered or fake. So really, I try to look towards those official outlets like CBC, CTV News and stuff like that. But I know some people are starting to get news from TikTok as well. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (38:03 - 38:54) A lot, yes. This is another thing we're trying to figure out how to harness. What do we do with TikTok? In the US, there's legislation involving TikTok. There's all kinds of... TikTok isn't without its problems, but it seems to be the lesser of evils, if you will, right now. And people are getting the news. And certainly people who are like young people, like teens and young and early 20s, that's how a lot of people are getting their news. So what do with that? So in one of my classes this year, we did do TikTok videos. And last year in our Supreme Court course, our final project was a podcast. So just looking at how are things a little bit different? You know, when we did it five years ago, you wrote stories, but are there different ways of telling them too? So... That's super interesting. If you have any great ideas about doing final projects involving TikTok too, I'm all ears because I'm just thinking it. [Herman Wong] (38:55 - 39:04) Well, I guess as one of the final questions I can ask you as we come to a close is, what are some of the biggest things that you try to impart to your students in your justice reporting course? [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (39:04 - 39:56) Ah, okay. You know, they're pretty much the same things that I try to impart in all of my courses. So there's some that may be a little bit specific, but it's really, it's a very big question on that. But I really just think, be curious about things, okay? Value good writing. Strong verbs will get you in everywhere. Go there, be there, be at the place. And I always say, you know, you're really intuitive. You don't really need to be an extrovert to be a journalist, but you really do need to be unafraid to stir the pot. And you do have to care about journalism and its future and making a difference. And then I always say, you know, if you're a journalist, you are going to encounter legal stories in the legal system at some time. And it's good to know that this is what's out there. This is what's accessible for you to have the confidence to go and take a look at these court decisions and court documents and all these things. [Herman Wong] (39:56 - 40:17) Well, that's amazing. And Janice, those are all the questions I have for you today. But I want to thank you so much for spending your time with me. It's great to catch up with you because I haven't seen you since 2019. And as we talked before, I didn't go to the convocation. Unfortunately, I was busy. So glad to see you again. You haven't changed at all. And so glad that you're here with us today. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (40:17 - 40:20) It was really great to talk to you, Herman. It was just like, it seems like yesterday. [Herman Wong] (40:21 - 40:22) Oh, well, thank you so much. [Professor Janice Tibbetts] (40:22 - 40:23) Talk to you later. [Herman Wong] (40:23 - 40:48) Talk soon. Bye. Okay, bye. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Law Syrup. How does our criminal justice system work? Tune in next time as we are joined by Justice Mabel Live to learn more about Crown Attorneys, Defense Counsel, and the court process. Law Syrup is produced by me, Herman Wong, and the Ontario Justice Education Network. For more information, check out www.ojen.ca and our show notes. See you next time