Welcome to Law Syrup, the show where we talk with special guests about hot topics in Canadian law. This podcast is a co-production with the Ontario Justice Education Network, also known as OJEN. I'm Herman Wong, let's tap in.
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Before we begin, please note that this show is not intended to be legal advice or be a replacement for a legal representative. 
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Welcome to a very special inaugural episode of Law Syrup. My name is Herman, and I'm so honoured to present this new podcast series alongside the Ontario Justice Education Network.
When I thought about creating this show, I wanted to make something that was fun to listen to and accessible, and I hope that you all find that it is. On this episode, you will hear my conversation with Supreme Court Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin. Justice O'Bonsawin is the first Indigenous Justice to ever preside in the Supreme Court of Canada. She is an incredible woman, and we had a great time talking about really the crux of this show, which is highlighting the importance of learning about the law. So without further ado, here's my talk with Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin. Enjoy.
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Herman Wong: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the show. Today, we are graced by the presence of an incredible woman: she is the Honourable Justice Michelle O'Bonsawin. Justice O'Bonsawin, thank you so much for being with us today. 
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Justice O’Bonsawin: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
 
Herman Wong: Listen, how are you today? How are you feeling? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: I'm pretty good, I have to say. So we're getting ready for this big spring storm. So that's not so great. But otherwise, I'm good. 
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Herman Wong: I hear on the storm. Is it raining where you are right now? 

Justice O’Bonsawin: Yes, it started to rain, and it's supposed to turn into snow. So we have already gotten a warning through Hydro Ontario to be prepared. We're going to lose electricity, so I guess we'll see.
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Herman Wong: Oh my goodness. Yeah, it's been raining here crazy in Toronto as well. My umbrella broke this morning. 

Justice O’Bonsawin: That's not good. 

Herman Wong: I was walking to the gym. I was like, oh, my portable umbrella is going to save me. And then the wind blew the hinges off. So I just had to pull my hood on and walk to the gym, drenched. But thank you so much for joining us here today on our first episode. And on today's episode, we want to talk about this subject, which is why learn about the law? And, you know, not necessarily going to law school, but having a general understanding and appreciation of the many ways our legal system works. And who better to tell us about the importance of the law here in Canada than you, Justice O'Bonsawin? I think listeners will be very interested to hear about not only your role as a Supreme Court Justice but also about your life story and how that has shaped your career and perception of Canadian law. So I think we're going to have a great discussion today.
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Justice O'Bonsawin: Me too. 

Herman Wong: All right. So let's get started and let's go all the way back to when you were nine years old, because that's when I heard that that's when you decided that you wanted to be a lawyer. So what was kind of the inspiration behind your decision? Was there ever an aha moment where you went, yes, I want to be a lawyer? 
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Justice O'Bonsawin: It's really bizarre because I get asked this question often because I've talked about it often the fact that when I was nine, I told my parents, who are both blue-collar workers, that I was going to be a lawyer. And they were shocked because, in my family, I come from a mining town. So my father, my uncles, grandfathers, they all worked in the mine. Oh, sorry. We have dogs. 
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Herman Wong: That's totally fine.
 
Justice O'Bonsawin: I hope you don't hear them. But yeah, so there was no real crescendo or a reason specifically that tweaked and all of a sudden, I was going to be a lawyer. For some reason, I just decided that was it. And it was my goal ever since. 
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Herman Wong: Wow. That's amazing. And you mentioned coming from a small town in Northern Ontario. And I do understand from reading a bit about you that there were people who told you that becoming a judge, for example, would not be feasible as an Indigenous woman like yourself. So I was wondering if you could speak more on how you felt in that moment, but also what encouraged you to keep pursuing your dream? 
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Justice O'Bonsawin: Yeah. So when I was in grade 12, of course, in preparation, we always meet with our guidance counsellor. And I had told him that I wanted to be a lawyer and I was going to eventually get into law school. And he said, Michelle, you come from a small town in Northern Ontario; that's likely not going to happen. And I thought, you know what, watch me, I'm going to make this dream a reality. And I was really fortunate because I come from a strong, a line of very strong women and independent women. My grandmother was a woman who was so modern for her time, who always encouraged me to pursue my dreams and my education, not to rely on anyone to be able to do it on my own. So I was fortunate on that front. And I had a really supportive family. So when I was nine, and I said I was going to be a lawyer, they're like, okay, let's do it.
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Herman Wong: That's amazing. And so you did your law degree, and I believe you also did a master's at Osgoode. So I'm an Osgoode student. I'm an Osgoode alum. Where did you stay when you went to Osgoode?

Justice O'Bonsawin: I actually, I was working full time as General Counsel at the Royal Ottawa. So I did this, I think, in my 12th year of practice. So I actually would do it on nights and weekends. And I had gone, I think, a couple of weekends at Osgoode, and I stayed in a hotel. So yeah.
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Herman Wong: Oh, that's pretty fancy. 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yes. It was good. So it was over an 18-month period that I did my degree. 

Herman Wong: Right. And I mean, by now, you have paved a whole new path for others. I was wondering who you see as having paved the path for yourself. So you mentioned your grandmother, for example. Was there anyone else who really influenced the beginning of your career?

Justice O'Bonsawin: I was fortunate because I've had great mentorship throughout all of my career. But going into the law, of course, the strong Indigenous presence of the Honourable Murray Sinclair. For me, he was something who was, everyone aspired to be like Murray Sinclair. And especially later in my career with all of his work on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, etc. And women for me, when I started law school, we had the first female Chief Justice in, Chief Justice McLaughlin, so she was a huge inspiration to me. And Justice Leroux-Dubé as the first Francophone woman to sit on our court. So these are all women that I aspired, and I looked up to when I was in law school and then became a lawyer. 
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Herman Wong: That's amazing. And I'm sure you have become an inspiration for so many.
 If you could look back right now to when you were nine years old and decided to become a lawyer, how would you think young Justice O'Bonsawin would react? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Well, I'll be honest. At that time, I never, even until I got into law school, I never thought I'd be a judge. My goal was to become a lawyer. And it's only after when I got into law school, we had actually the Commissioner of Judicial Affairs come and speak to us in our first year legislation class. And he explained how to become a judge. So 10 years of practice, good reputation, etc. And at one point, someone in my class lifted their hand and said, well, what's the perfect candidate to apply to be a judge? And he said, well, it's actually a bilingual Aboriginal woman. And I thought, oh, my God, that's me. Can I actually be a judge? And that's what planted the seed, because to be honest, I never would have thought that it was possible to become a judge, So that's where it started. 
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Herman Wong: Wow. I mean, now that you are a Supreme Court Justice, what did you how did you react when you found out the news? Was it like that someone tell you that someone call you like, hey, you're the newest Supreme Court Justice? Like, what was that reaction like for you and your family?
 
Justice O'Bonsawin: It was it was shocking. It was humbling. It was mind-blowing. So it was a Tuesday night in the kitchen with my husband around 6ish, 6:30, and my cell phone rings and I answered it. It was a number I didn't recognize. And he, the person on the line, told me that he worked in the Prime Minister's office and the Prime Minister wanted to meet me the following evening on Wednesday. Was I available? Absolutely. And I have to say, it was so funny because when I was on the phone, my husband was looking at me because he could see something was going on. And my reaction was to do give him a bunch of thumbs up. Like I thought, OK, I'll give a thumbs up, and that way there, he'll know it's something good. So I did a thumbs up. And then afterwards, when I hung up, we basically jumped around and my husband called our kids up, and we all celebrated the fact that I had received this call. And it wasn't a done deal. I hadn't met with the Prime Minister, but it was definitely a good indication, and the following night is really when we celebrated.
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Herman Wong: How'd you celebrate? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: We just had a - because I met with him after dinner when I came home, We just had a great chat, and we were just happy as a family, the four of us together. 

Herman Wong: Wow, that's great.
 
Justice O'Bonsawin: And you know what? Can I just add, you know, how I celebrated by myself is I ordered. I'm a huge John Fluvog shoe fan. So I ordered three pairs of shoes online to celebrate. 
 
Herman Wong: Honestly, good for you, as you should. So now that you've been a Supreme Court justice, it's almost been a year and a half now, correct? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Right. 

Herman Wong: Yes. So for those people who might not know what a Supreme Court justice does, what is the day in the life for you?

Justice O'Bonsawin:  It really depends on what days of the week it is, for example, or in the months. So we sit on a two-week rotation. So we'll sit two weeks where we're hearing cases and two weeks where we're doing a multitude of other things. We're working on decisions. We're drafting. We're going out in the community, meeting people, giving speeches, going to events. So it really depends. So a day in the life of when we're sitting, for example. So I get into work normally around seven o'clock, and I prepare my day from seven to just before nine o'clock. My notes. At five to nine, there's actually it sounds like a school bell that rings, and that tells us all to put our gowns on. And then we walk downstairs one floor lower to all meet in the conference room where we sit the nine judges together around a roundtable. And we do sit by seniority. And so how the day starts is our Chief Justice will list out the issues of the hearing that we'll be hearing that day. And then afterwards, we have a good discussion about, you know, things we may want to ask counsel, things that bother us, things that we just discuss generally. We talk about the file, and then the bell rings again at 9:30, and we basically all get in line by seniority and then we enter the courtroom. We hear the case. And once we're done, we meet immediately normally right afterwards, in the same conference room. And that's when we normally go by reverse seniority. So when I first started, it was by a show of hands, whoever wanted to talk. And in this new sitting period that we started in September of 2023 or October 2023, when Justice Moreau joined, we did reverse seniority. So the more junior judge will speak first all the way to the most senior judge. And once that's done, the Chief Justice will see who's in the majority and if there's anyone in dissent. And then he'll ask for volunteers. He'll note them. And on the second Friday of our two-week sitting, our Chief Justice sends out a memo with the assigned who's going to be writing the different cases. So that's how a day looks like. 
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Herman Wong: And, like what are some behind-the-scenes details? Because I visited the Supreme Court on one of the tours that they have there. It was lovely. By the way, have you ever like bumped into a tour while it was happening and went like, hey. 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yeah, I do actually do that. It was really funny because there was once my court support officer was driving me back from an event and there were two school buses outside starting a tour. And it was really funny. So I told Stefan, I said, let me out and I'll just go and say hi. And I'm standing next to the tour guide, who had no clue who I was. And I think it was a bit miffed that I was standing next to him. And finally, I said, oh, hi. I just thought I'd come and say hello, I'm Justice O'Bonsawin, and he looked at me in shock. But my office is actually really near where the Grand Hall is. So I hear the commotion. So at times, it's funny. I have brought one of my sons and friends. I was giving him a little personal tour. There were others there. So I'll go introduce myself. Or if I'm in the Grand Hall and I'll see someone, I'll say, oh, hi, I'm Justice O'Bonsawin. And I'll say, you know, welcome. And at times, I'll say any questions for me or because I think it's important for them to see that we're regular people. So I do do some party crashing at times when I see tours. And behind the scenes, well, I think I explained a lot in my last question in my response to you about how the bell rings, but we do have a dining room where we normally eat at lunch, mostly all together when we're having hearings. And just for the public to know, we do pay for our own meals. But yeah, it's a nice dining room. And at times, we're able to invite guests. So it's it's something that a lot of people don't know that we have our own dining room. But we're not like the Supreme Court of the United States that have a big gym with a basketball. 
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Herman Wong: Do they actually? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yeah, because in RBG's book, I remember reading that just above her office was the gym with the basketball court, and she could hear the ball being dribbled.
 
Herman Wong: Well, so it was actually in the building?

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yeah. I haven't been, but that's what I read in her book. 

Herman Wong: I didn't know that. That's cool.
 
Herman Wong:  Yeah, I know. That's great. I mean, I recommend to all the listeners who are listening today if you are ever in Ottawa, please visit the Supreme Court. There are lovely tour guides. I believe they're all law students, actually, from the University of Ottawa. So they give lovely tours and you get to visit the main hall, for example. I have a really embarrassing story, actually. I was at a tour of the Supreme Court. I was in my journalism class for legal journalism. And I remember visiting and I was hanging out near the security guard desk. And this one of the security guards was like, hey, like, do you want something? I was like, oh, sure, I'll take whatever you have. She was like, look here, take one of these. And she gave me one of these Supreme Court-branded coloured pencils that I have kept to this day. It was like completely labelled and everything. It was fabulous. And she also gave me like one of these like activity books for kids. I loved it. It was an incredible souvenir. So I've definitely treasured those forever. 
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Justice O'Bonsawin: I don't even have a Supreme Court pen. How lucky are you? 

Herman Wong: Oh, my gosh. No, it has the branding on it. I was like, oh, my gosh, this is really special. So I kept them in the box, and they're in my office somewhere. But anyways, let's move on to the other parts of your job. What has surprised you the most in the year and a half that you've been a Supreme Court Justice?

Justice O'Bonsawin: I think what surprises me the most is the behind-the-scenes. So for us to have hearings, there are all kinds of different people involved. So it's not just the nine of us that show up. And so you have simultaneous translation. You have someone who's with the whole IT system because our interveners are online. There's a whole team of protocols when we have events. So there are all these different groups and departments that work. Like even for example, all the paper, all the producing the documents that we get. There is a huge team that works behind the scenes to make sure that we're all ready to get into the hearing and to be well prepared. And every one of our offices, we have our own team. So, for example, my office has I have three clerks. I have a judicial executive assistant who works just for me. And then I also have a court support officer. So we all have our individual teams that work just for us. So it's quite an impressive machine. 
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Herman Wong: Well, that's amazing. And you must have so much reading to do as a Supreme Court Justice. How do you get through it? Because I remember in law school, I had so many readings and I was like, how do I manage my time? I don't know. Should I skim? What are your best practices in terms of reading that many, like so many volumes of paper, for instance? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yeah, so I have a method and it's changed a bit since when I started, because when you're you're green, you don't necessarily know. But I had gotten good advice from certain judges that was of assistance. And so my practice now is to start off by reading the decision. So I start off with normally the court of appeal and then I go to the prior decisions from there. Then I go into the factums and then I go into the records. So that's normally my strategy. If we had a file that had 30,000 pages. So what I would do is I would skim through the 30,000 to see what was essential to read. And my staff, my clerks helped me to identify the relevant portions. So I normally read almost every piece of paper except for a 30,000-page document. At times I have my clerks help me collate what has to be read because at times, it's almost impossible to touch every piece of paper. But on the majority of cases, I would say it's definitely it's just to time it right. So on those two weeks where we're not sitting, you're constantly reading to prepare and making notes, etc.
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Herman Wong: Oh, I bet. And you must see so many different styles of writing, for instance.

Justice O'Bonsawin: Oh, absolutely.
 
Herman Wong: So what I mean, I think people would actually benefit from you talking about this. What are some of the worst examples of writing that you've seen lawyers produce? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: I'll give you what my big pet peeves are when I'm reading things. So for me, one thing that I really dislike is when I see cut and paste. So for me, I know when they're cut and paste because the little apostrophes aren't a little round apostrophes. They're a little line. And at times people do cut and paste. The fonts aren't the same. The margins aren't the same. Oh, that drives me nuts. So if you're going to be appearing in front of any court, not even just the Supreme Court, but any level of court, your documents should be pristine because this is the Judge who's reading these documents. It's the first impression we get of the litigators that appear in front of us. So in my mind, and when I was a litigator throughout all my career, I always ensured that someone else read anything that I filed with the court. So and the other thing you want to make sure there are no spelling mistakes no typos. Those are the things that are awful. Margins. Oh, no. And what's worse is no page numbers at the top of the record. So they'll say, oh, your Honour, we'll go to page 30, and then you're going through the document. There's no page 30. And then they'll say, oh, well, count back 10 pages from the last page. Oh, my God. Those are the worst. So those are my big pet peeves. No typos, no cut and paste. Make sure your margins are good. Make sure the numbers on top of your pages are there. Those are things that are essential. 
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Herman Wong: And on the reverse side, what are some of the best elements of writing that you've seen? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Well, for me, concise is really important because there are page limits of factums that have to be filed in front of the Supreme Court of Canada. So you really want to make sure that whatever that they're within the confines of the page numbers and that they're concise and to the point for me to read something that's just going on and on about one point that they could be talking about in one or two paragraphs and they go on for two, three pages. That is something that's not really enjoyable to read. So I love when someone is concise to the point and it's aesthetically pleasing when I read it. 
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Herman Wong: So let's switch gears a bit now and let's talk about your background and how that has influenced your career. So I saw a CBC interview last year where you were talking about how your background as an Indigenous woman has given you a unique perspective on the way that you work. So in the year and a half that's passed since you assumed this position, how has your background affected the work that you do so far? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Well, I think it informs it. We're all judges. We all have our individual backgrounds that we bring to the table when we sit on files. And like my colleagues who have different upbringings from me, myself as a Francophone Indigenous woman, I bring a different point of view to the table. So I don't think necessarily it points me to I'm always going to render a decision based on this way because I'm an Indigenous woman. It just means that when I look at things, I have a different perspective. And we will always make a determination and a conclusion, and a finding on a case based on how it's presented to us. And we got to stay within those confines. So I think that's how I look at it. 
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Herman Wong: Right. And were there ever times in your legal career where you found yourself doubting yourself? And how did you deal with that? Because I know I have a lot of imposter syndrome sometimes. I was wondering, like, do Supreme Court justices also have imposter syndrome? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Well, I'm sure everyone does when you're starting in any kind of a new job. So when I started in Superior Court, I, for example, hadn't practiced in family law. So when I started sitting. You feel a bit like an imposter because it's not an area of the practice, an area of the law that I had practiced in. But with time, with reading, with mentorship, then you evolve as a jurist in the different fields that you work in. And it's the same when you start in the Supreme Court of Canada. You're starting in an area where there's certain cases I've never touched before. So it's always a learning curve. And I found the first year was the biggest part of the learning curve. And with time, I, you know, things get better, and you're not the imposter anymore. 
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Herman Wong: So let's talk about law in Canada now. So I guess a question I wanted to ask you, given your position, is how do we build more trust in the justice sector here in Canada? And are there any gaps that you see where trust does need a little bit of building? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Well, I think with all different communities, everyone wants to be able to see themselves reflected in the court system, right? And I think that we've had a real improvement on diversity on the bench and there's been a huge evolution. When I started practicing law, it was a lot of older white haired men. Now there's a lot of diversity. There's a lot of parity. For the first time, our Supreme Court has a majority of women. So it's really evolved from when I started to where I am now in my judicial career. And I think, are there gaps? I'm sure there are. Can I name them for you? Probably not. But I think what's important is for the judiciary, not only on the Supreme Court, but it's important for us to go and meet people and communities and demystify the work that we do in the court system because the more that the Canadian population can learn about the court system and how it works and what, for example, we do on the Supreme Court of Canada as the last level of appeal, I think demystifying that work is really important for people to be confident in the system. 
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Herman Wong: Absolutely. And I guess that goes to my other question, which is, what value can people get from learning about the law, even if it's just the basics? So we talked about demystifying it a little bit, but I always thought that learning about the law would be very practical because, you know, even simple things like, oh, why do we have to wear a seatbelt in our cars? Why can't we cross the street when it's red? Like simple things like that are, you know, informed by the law. And I think it's very important for people to not necessarily have a very extreme understanding of everything that's going on, but a general overview would be very helpful. I was wondering if you agree with that. 
Justice O'Bonsawin: I definitely agree. And one of the things that I think is the most important thing that people should know is about our Charter, our Charter of Rights and how it affects every Canadian and the different individual protections that we have as Canadians. So right to equality, etc. So I think that these are essentials, they're basics that every Canadian has to learn about.
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Herman Wong: And I know you do a lot of educating and from what I know, you are very devoted to teaching communities about our legal system. I saw you recently visited Robson Hall at the University of Manitoba. You also worked with the Ontario Justice Education Network in the past. So what do you enjoy the most from meeting students?

Justice O'Bonsawin: I just I love chatting with them. I like having the discussions because they're the pulse on society, emerging issues. I love just to hear about what they're doing, what they're working on, how they see things. I like sharing with them my experiences of my career as a litigator, but also in the judiciary. So for me, normally, my rule of thumb for you to know is when I go, for example, when I went to Manitoba to Robson Hall, when I go to University, I also go to high school. So whoever invites me at the University, I'll ask the university can you give me a list of two or three different schools? I'll do a bit of research. I'll pick one. And I also organize to go meet with students and chat with them. Because if I could inspire anyone to want to go into the law and to know that you don't have to come from a rich family or a family that is full of professionals, you could be someone like me who comes from a small community in northern Ontario, a blue-collar background, and you can make it all the way to the Supreme Court if you really want it. So for me, I love sharing, but I love learning and hearing from our youth. 
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Herman Wong: What are some of the most interesting or surprising things a student has told you? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: At times, I've had a lot of students talk because I talk a lot about mental health, about Indigenous issues, but at times when I talk about mental health, the thing that I like the most is a lot of the students come and see me afterwards. They'll tell me how what I've talked about has touched them, and they'll share their stories with me. And not that it's surprising, but I find that touching that they feel comfortable enough to talk to me about their own personal issues with mental health. And for me, that's something really special.
 
Herman Wong: Yeah. And for a high school student who might be listening right now and curious to learn more about the law, what piece of advice or pieces of advice would you give to them? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: I think that it's important to follow the news, for example, because the news we are hearing about different cases, what's going on with Parliament, with provincial politics. I think, and I have to say my father-in-law when I was a young woman starting out in the law, he had told me, you have to really follow the news to get an understanding about what's going on in our province, in Canada and in the world. And I think that's where it starts, not just about the law, it's to understand about what's going on in our entourage and then how all that fits with different laws, legislation, you know, for example, different politics. I think everything is important to know. 
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Herman Wong: Right. So you mentioned the news. What other resources do you think are readily available to the general public? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Well, I know that OJEN has a really great website with all kinds of different resources. I think that's really important. We have all kinds of different. So I'm going to do my plug about mental illness. We have a lot of different, the Mental Health Commission, etc., different talk lines, talk centres and websites that talk about how to access mental health services. The different universities have great websites with all kinds of information. If we have high school students who are interested in going to law school, there are a lot of universities that give you really a roadmap of what's required to get into law school, for example. So you need an undergraduate degree, etc. So I think the web is an amazing thing where it's full of all kinds of useful and helpful information. 
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Herman Wong: Right. Well, that's amazing. Well, that kind of sums up all the questions I have for you today, Justice O'Bonsawin. But we can go into a little speed round just to get to know you a little bit more. Is that OK with you? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yeah, absolutely.
 
Herman Wong: OK, great. So number one, favourite movie? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Braveheart. I think I must have seen that movie like 10 times. That Braveheart and Gladiator, two kind of similar movies. Both that I've seen a lot of times.
 
Herman Wong: My favourite is Jurassic Park. 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Oh, OK. Not mine, but OK.
 
Herman Wong: All right. Favourite album?

Justice O'Bonsawin: Hmm. I'd say anything by U2 or Brian Adams. So I'm dating myself, but I listen to a lot of those two things. And now recently, I am listening to a lot of Metallica. My husband is a huge fan, and we went and saw them in August. So I have been listening to a lot of Metallica lately. 
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Herman Wong: What is your favourite song?

Justice O'Bonsawin: Enter Sandman

Herman Wong: A classic. I really like Moth into Flame; that was a good one. I have also been listening to Beyoncé’s new album recently. Which is very good. 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Is it? Because it was something I was wondering. Its new genre, so I thought I would check it out. 

Herman Wong: Yes, you definitely should. I mean, there's a lovely cover of Dolly Parton's Jolene on it.

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yes I heard!

Herman Wong: Yes, and everything on that album is fantastic. And she's a genius. Okay so next one, dream vacation spot?

Justice O'Bonsawin: I love Paris

Herman Wong: Paris, Ou I have never been to Paris

Justice O'Bonsawin: I absolutely love it. I'm going to be 50 in May and I'm going there with my three friends and we're going to spend a week in Paris.

Herman Wong: Oh my goodness, what are you going to do?

Justice O'Bonsawin: I don’t know. We're just going to go to Paris. We're going to hang out and shop and eat and visit, and just have fun.

Herman Wong: Speaking about eating, what is your favourite food? Do you snack on anything at the Supreme Court? 

Justice O'Bonsawin: Nuts normally, because its something I can eat really fast. My favourite food, anything pasta I would say. 

Herman Wong: Ouuuuu pasta

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yeah, I love fettuccine Alfredo 

Herman Wong: Amazing, best way to spend your time off?

Justice O'Bonsawin: Well, as you heard at the beginning of the podcast, I have dogs. So I spend a lot of time with my family, the dogs. I'm working on a painting, so I paint. So on my downtime I paint. And because I read so much at work, I listen to alot of Audible online. Through my phone. So I have been listening to Louise Penny’s books.
(00:31:44-00:32:10)

Herman Wong: Louise Penny, okay

Justice O'Bonsawin: Yes, And I've just been zooming through those books.So when I'm in the car, I'm listening to a book constantly. When I have downtime, and I just need to relax, I continue to listen to one of her audible books.

Herman Wong: That's good. I have never tried an audiobook, actually

Justice O'Bonsawin: And you know what the best ones I really enjoy is when it's in autobiography. So, for example, the Obamas, I listen to their different books because they actually read them.

Herman Wong: Right, yea

Justice O'Bonsawin: So I really like that.

Herman Wong: Yeah, that's good to hear them actually say the words that they wrote. That must be interesting. Do you ever read, like, legal thrillers?

Justice O'Bonsawin: The last one I read was Beverly McLaughlin's. She had a novel, and I think a second one is coming out. So the last one I read was her first legal thriller.

Herman Wong: Wow. I need to go check it out.

Justice O'Bonsawin: It's actually good. I really enjoyed it. And it's funny because there was a little part in there where there's her painting as Chief Justice in one of the courtrooms. And it's funny because it's kind of mocking herself and I wrote her a note. I said, you know, I thought that was really brilliant.
(00:33:07-00:33:22)

Herman Wong: And I did ask about TV shows, but did you see the new Law and Order show that's set in Toronto?

Justice O'Bonsawin: No I haven’t

Herman Wong: I haven't watched it either, but there is posters everywhere on the Subway. But I am like, I wonder if it is actually accurate

Justice O'Bonsawin: I have to say, I love the old Law and Orders and the reruns; my husband and I watch those constantly. So I'm still into, there's the new, like the reboot with the Jack and the people we used to watch who were the crown and that back then. And I don't know, it's not as good as the originals.
(00:33:35-00:33:55)

Herman Wong: Nothing beats the oldies

Justice O'Bonsawin: No not the OGs!

Herman Wong: But no, we definitely need to watch the new one. Let me know what you think.

Justice O'Bonsawin: Okay. 

Herman Wong: But anyways, Justice O'Bonsawin, so that's all the time we have here today. I just want to thank you again for spending your time with me and with the podcast. And on behalf of myself and the Ontario Justice Education Network, thank you so much for your time. We are so grateful.
(00:34:04-00:34:16)

Justice O'Bonsawin: Great Thank you

Herman Wong: 
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Law Syrup. On the next episode, join us as we celebrate Pride Month with three panellists to talk about 2SLGBTQ+ identity both in and outside the legal community. Law Syrup is produced by me, Herman Wong and the Ontario Justice Education Network. For more information, check out www.ojen.ca and our show notes. See you next time. 
(00:34:10-00:34:32)