Welcome to Better Together, a Vaishnava family podcast.
A podcast where we talk about family life from a Bhakti Yohur perspective.
We are your hosts.
I'm Aksh.
And I'm Gopika.
Welcome to Episode 3.
Last episode, we spoke briefly about the difficulty around the choice of being a stay-at-home mom,
and how domestic labor is often undervalued, and the Shastvik perspective around this whole
thing.
Ironically, but I always feel like Krishna is in our hearts and just kind of orchestrates
things perfectly.
But right after we recorded that podcast, Harrison Butker, Kansas City Chief's NFL player, gave
a commencement speech at a Catholic university.
And he told the graduating women in the audience that the thing that they would be most excited
about and that would bring most value to their life would be becoming mothers and wives.
Naturally, this sparked outrage on social media and people are still talking about it.
Have you seen some of it?
I have.
I would say that there's outrage, but there's also a lot of support.
Yeah, I was just going to say.
Yeah, exactly.
There's like two camps on social media.
So there's one camp of women who completely condemn Bucker for kind of diminishing women
as if they were only born in this world, and their sole purpose in this world would be
to be good wives and mothers.
And there's another camp of women who are really supporting Bucker, saying that, hey,
I'm educated, I have X number of degrees, and being a stay-at-home mom or being a mother
has been the biggest accomplishment of my life.
So there's this cyber battle going on, but we haven't actually gotten a chance to talk
about it.
And I'm curious to know as a man and as a husband and as a father, what were your thoughts
and reactions to Bucker's speech?
Well, if I'm honest, I think a bit mixed in the sense that it sort of feels very cookie-cutter
that everyone, or I think he may even use the word most, most of you or something like
that, will feel fulfilled in this type of role that is homemaker.
I mean, I feel like it's boxing people in.
I know that.
For me, why I feel conflicted a little bit or mixed is that, and this is just me as someone
who's a man and not really in the best place to even say this, but I'm curious, is there
some level of truth to what he says?
Yeah, yeah, no, totally.
I mean, this might be controversial, but I do agree with you in the sense that even for
me, I'm educated, I value my career.
There is a part of me that wants to go back to work, and I will be going back to work in
some capacity, but being a mother and raising my kids and spending this time with them has
been the most difficult thing that I have done.
And I think as I live my life, it will be the most important thing that I've done.
I really feel that at the end of my life, raising my kids is going to be my single most
important accomplishment.
At the same time, I think here's the problem with this speech.
One, the problem is like you were saying the extremes, right?
The assumption that all the women in the audience, their sole purpose in life, the only thing
that they will look forward to is being a mother and being a homemaker and a wife, because
that really diminishes women to this very 1D perspective on who they are as humans.
Whereas like we talked about in our last episode, right?
Who women are and what our natures are are so multidimensional.
So yes, there might be a Dharma as a woman to be a mother, to be a wife.
There might be a part of us that needs to be fulfilled in that way.
However, we also have other Dharmas and we all might have different natures.
And the combination of how that's going to show up in every single woman is going to
be different.
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting you say Dharma.
So he used the term vocation and he said, you know, my wife leaned into her vocation
and then he talked about himself as leaning into his vocation.
Yeah.
You know, as if the vocation was like this one prescribed, you know, duty from God that
this is exactly what I'm supposed to do.
And I guess knowing that it was coming from a Christian and Catholic background, I can't
comment on exactly what that prescribed duty is.
But certainly from a bhakti perspective, it is complex and there's multiple dimensions
of duty and duty is a dynamic principle.
It's not something that's meant to be static.
Yeah, exactly.
And it could change with time, you know, with circumstances and also practical situations,
right?
Yeah, like needing to work for financial reasons, etc.
Here's the saddest part of this whole thing, though, for me is when I saw these two camps
of women on social media pitted against each other.
That was the tragedy for me because I feel like one, the the issue ends up being like
two extremes.
One extreme be a stay at home mom, give up your job.
The other extreme, you're a working mom, right?
And we talked about last time how that's that's not really the only way to look at it.
But then what happens is that each camp ends up judging each other for their respective
choices.
So because of someone like Bucker who made this comment, if you do make the choice to
be a stay at home mom, it's almost like you are succumbing to patriarchy.
Like you're you're succumbing to a man telling you what to do if you choose to be a stay
at home mom, which can feel like betraying womanhood and independence, right?
And on the other hand, if you go back to work, then you might also be judged for going back
to work and not doing your role and fulfilling your Dharma as a family woman mother, being
with your kids when they need you, etc.
etc. etc. For me, the big picture here is one, every woman is unique and should be treated
that way and should be honored that way and should be given the freedom to make the choices
that make sense for her and her family.
If you as a woman are fulfilled as a homemaker at a stay at home mom, it lights up your life.
Wonderful.
Great.
You know, if you as a woman love being a mother and you have other parts of you that also
light up your life, wonderful.
Awesome.
So, rather than judge each other for each other's choices and assume that there is one way to
do it, embracing the complexity of humanity and womanhood and motherhood.
And we see that in Shastra like we talked about last time, all these examples, Thrope
of the the gopis, the wives of the Brahminas, the fruit seller, all of them were women,
all of them were mothers in different ways.
So why can't we just accept that about each other rather than judge each other for each
other's respective choices?
Yeah.
Well, I think sometimes the judgment may come from actually a place of concern.
And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this.
What I've seen is this concern that if the mom or I guess the dad as well or any parent
figure that is not in a child's life regularly that that will impact the child.
Yeah.
Particularly from a, I guess, spiritual or moral place.
I don't know if I'm saying it right, but the sort of concern and you can see how even
people that are in these circles often prefer sort of like a homeschooling route and the
idea of your child being part of your world rather than them being out there.
So do you think that concern comes from there?
Like that this is God's desire for women to be homemakers because that's the way it
ought to be for the sake of the family.
And if someone has to choose or wants to choose to go to work and may have to let go of some
of that responsibility, like how to navigate that.
I don't feel like it's any of our place to assess what God's desire is for anyone else.
It's just our place to assess what God's desire is for me.
Because that's a hard enough question as it is.
And we grappled and we are still grappling with this decision in our own family about
me being a stay at home mom versus me going back to work.
In the minute we start to impose judgment on other people, I feel like that leaves the
realm of walking a path of faith unless you are really truly in a position of guru or
mentorship, etc.
It's really not our place to be judging all of these other choices.
So yeah, maybe it comes out of concern.
However, is it really our place to be judging other people's families when the decision
is so complicated?
There are so many immense factors.
The other thing is I feel like God cares about building a loving relationship with Him.
In Bhakti, that's the end goal, right?
To have a loving relationship with Krishna.
So to say that for a woman to have a loving relationship with Krishna, the way that she
needs to do that is to have children and be a good wife and mother.
And that's the only way.
I feel like that goes against the diversity in the Bhakti tradition.
In Bhagavatam there are so many types of people, animals even, who have loving relationships
with Krishna.
So then why are we trying to make all of us have the same type of role and the same type
of position when we have a relationship with Krishna?
So okay, maybe there's concern, but for me, honestly, charity starts at home and there's
enough going on in my own world before I need to start caring about other people's worlds.
I really feel like the focus needs to be on supporting women to make this choice for themselves
in a way that, again, they can show up to be the happiest and healthiest for their families.
That is what's going to make a happy family.
Happy moms make happy families.
So what is going to be happiness for that mom?
That might be different depending on nature.
So when there are people like Bhakti are making these speeches, saying what he said, how do
we live in the world differently?
What are your thoughts?
Yeah, first and foremost, I feel like there needs to be support around women making these
choices.
So if we just stop telling women what to do, rather we have to give them the support so
they can make the choices that are right for them.
I mean, what do you think?
I think this really creates this polarization, which is actually quite like disturbing the
average person reading the news and watching YouTube and, you know, take talk and just
coming across this stuff.
It's so complicated to figure out like what do you believe?
Because also the arguments are like somewhat persuasive sometimes.
You know, I've actually, due to my interest in philosophy and stuff, I have a lot of these
Christian preachers also that come in through my YouTube feeds and my YouTube shorts and
all that stuff.
So I see things and I would say like many of them are quite intelligent.
Of course.
And articulate.
So as a person just absorbing all this, it can be easy to get really confused.
And there's a tendency to want to pick a side because that seems like the easiest way to
just move on with life.
I think the way that we have to live in a world like this is we need to question what
we hear and we need to think deeply about what we want to do.
And navigating the gray is hard, but it's worth it.
Yeah.
I hear that like with butger's speech.
I know my first reaction was, oh my gosh, what is he saying?
Right.
At the same time, if you do pause, there is some validity.
I'm not saying complete validity.
I don't agree with him and what he's doing.
However, this idea of motherhood being an important, amazing contribution to society,
I agree with that.
So I think that's a great point, right?
That like when we see these things on social media, it's so easy to feel strongly about
one way or the other.
And then we get caught up in these battles.
And rather than that, just like think about what's valid on each side of the argument
and where do I really stand?
For me, I've been really thinking about and I want to hear your ideas too.
Within our home, how do we, how do we change the culture within our home in concrete ways,
given that there is such a deep on one hand disregard for women in the sense that people
tell women what to do one to for home making that it's kind of unvalued and seen as quote
unquote nothing?
How do we change the culture in our home so that our son and daughter will grow up to
understand the nuances of these issues?
Yeah, it's really great question.
I mean, the first thing that just comes to my mind is the vocabulary that we use around
these things.
So for example, often when it's time for me to go to work, which usually means going
downstairs into the office, I will say like, okay, sure, I'm going to work in 10 minutes
or something like that.
And there's clearly this sense of I'm going to do something important, you know, Papa's
going to do something important.
And you are going to do something important.
And I am doing something important, but at the same time, you're also doing something
really, really important.
And no, I don't think that we apply the same label to that, or at least a label that has
similar value.
And so that that's a subtle thing that that kids do pick up, I feel.
Yeah, totally.
I mean, they are receiving so many subtle messages.
And recently, because we have a daughter now, I've been noticing that our parents will see
her in the kitchen, and she's literally eight months old.
And if I'm just standing with her by the stove, they may say something like, wow, you're going
to help me in the kitchen one day?
I have no problem with this statement.
I believe that helping in the kitchen is an important life skill.
It's a service opportunity.
There's nothing wrong with that, right?
Yeah.
However, my issue lies in the fact that that has never been said to our son.
Yeah.
That's my issue.
Yeah.
You know, like, why?
And of course, nothing is intentional, right?
If you were to ask them, oh, do you believe that only women should be in the kitchen?
They'd be like, no, no, men can be in the kitchen.
I cook sometimes too, blah, blah, blah.
Again, the culture is so deep, and our kids from birth, literally babyhood, eight months
old, she's receiving these messages, and so is he, because he's watching this.
He's hearing this, right?
So really being mindful of that.
And I'm also thinking about, like, having conversations with our kids about it, right?
And maybe even opening up about how we were raised and our expectations and what we think
about it now.
Well, it's funny you bring that up because I have a story.
So I remember a few weeks or a month or two back, I was preparing dinner, and Kishore
was playing in the living room, as he usually does.
He then came up to me in the middle of my dinner prep and asked a question.
And with a very concerned tone and a look on his face, he said something to the fact
of, Papa, what are you making?
Then I told him what I was making, or I may have been warming something up and making
something I don't remember.
And then he asks, Papa, what do you know how to make?
Of course, the context of this is that I am a pretty basic person in the kitchen.
Like I said, you are our primary cook and kitchen manager and an excellent cook, if I
may say.
But Kishore does pick up on the differences there.
And I think at some point, one of us may even said, Papa doesn't know how to cook or know
how to cook that much.
And he asked, well, why don't you know how to cook?
And later on, a few weeks later, I brought up the conversation with him and tried to
explain to him how, just how I grew up, that things were a certain way and that might have
influenced me a little bit.
But it doesn't have to be that way.
I asked him how he would like to approach the kitchen and very enthusiastically, of
course, he has his play kitchen.
So he said, I already know how to cook and I know how to cook this and I know how to
cook that.
And so I was relieved that he saw himself also contributing to the household in that
way.
But let me ask you, what other things do you think we could be doing as a family?
I mean, for me personally, I think I also have to work on myself and look at the part
of me that undervalues domestic labor.
As a woman who is educated and really loved my career.
I need to reframe that within myself.
So instead of saying, I left my career, I took a career pause.
I'm choosing family right now, but that doesn't make me unworthy of respect.
And I'm still doing something very important.
And staying at home is not anti feminist.
Staying at home is not a way to diminish women's rights, which is how it can be seen,
especially when you have like a butger speech situation happening.
So I think I need to embody confidence in my own choice.
And I have been catching myself sometimes because people ask me, like, what are you
doing these days, and I'll say something to the effects of like, oh, I'm just a mom
right now.
And just that phrase, right?
I'm just a mom.
You know, being a mother is an immense service to the world.
And so I think like continuing to say these things to myself is really important.
Well, I was going to say that for me, another point for us as a family, very closely connected
to this is cherishing motherhood and verbalizing depreciations.
And this is something that I know I can do better is often I sort of intuitively understand
the value of what you do.
But one, I don't always tell you enough.
But I certainly I don't verbalize it enough out loud in a way that our son can hear it
and start to understand what you're doing is also valuable.
It's important.
And I think I would even say that perhaps that can also help you in your process of
reframing as well, because it's not really fair for you to just be there on your own
trying to see the sacrifice and reframing the sacrifice on your own, rather having some
support in that and also being able to feel encouraged in that sacrifice.
So I think that's something that we can do better.
And I can do better.
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you saying that.
I'll try.
Well, I feel like those are good few ways that we can start with.
Yeah.
We never know how to end the episode.
I mean, we're still trying to figure that part out here.
So we'll just say this.
It's a work.
We're a work in progress.
We're still figuring all of this out.
Let's keep on getting better together.
We'll see everybody in episode four.
Thanks for joining us.
I wish that.
Okay.