1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,960 The Inspired Insights podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:10,040 not be considered health advice. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical 3 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:11,040 advice. 4 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:15,120 Please note that this podcast may contain discussions on sensitive topics such as mental 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,720 illness, suicide, and substance use. If you are experiencing a behavior health crisis 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:26,040 or need support, please contact the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by calling 988 or visiting 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,040 www.988lifeline.org. 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:59,720 Hi, I'm Soren. Soren! I feel like I've just started every episode screaming Soren! 9 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,720 Hi Soren, welcome back! 10 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:03,720 Hi! 11 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:09,080 Next episode of The Inspired Insights podcast, I'm Chris McClellan. 12 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:10,080 I'm Soren Peterson. 13 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,240 What have you been up to lately? 14 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:19,120 You know, it's been summer. I've been liberated out on the town and such. I've been doing 15 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,280 a few public speaking gigs of late. 16 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,800 Oh, that's right. Yeah, you've been doing like a speaker's tour. 17 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:30,560 I've been saying speaker's tour. I've been going to some relatively small speaking things 18 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,960 for our local hospital. 19 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:36,560 And I've found it super rewarding. 20 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:42,040 Oh, I want to talk about this. Let's start with what has been your inspired insight of 21 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:43,240 the week. 22 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:51,080 So my inspired insight is involved with public speaking. And it is how rewarding it can be 23 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,720 to both feel like you're advocating for a cause that you believe in and feel like you're 24 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,480 being heard. 25 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:06,120 I have found it incredibly rewarding to share my experiences publicly and my insights and 26 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,760 feel like I'm making a change. 27 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:14,640 And I think that's something super innate in humans. We need to feel like we are being 28 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:24,800 useful and creating progress. And through my advocacy work, I've been getting that positive 29 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,480 emotion. 30 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:27,480 That's so cool. 31 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,000 And that's so cool. We're going to talk about this. We're going to break this way down. 32 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:38,120 My inspired insight for the week has been something. It was a meme that I saw floating 33 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:47,280 around the Insta-box. And it essentially says that your greatest test as a human will be 34 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:52,240 how you handle the people who have mishandled you. 35 00:02:52,240 --> 00:03:02,160 Really speaking to me about this idea of how when they go low, we go high. And rising above 36 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,280 the criticism and the noise. And learning to forgive. 37 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:14,480 Yeah. And we did a whole episode on handling criticism. And I feel like the way that we 38 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:22,000 interact with those who are spewing negativity at us says less about them and more about 39 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,000 us. 40 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:24,000 Your spot on. 41 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:31,120 Like the way that we react to stimuli is a comment on us rather than a comment on the 42 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:32,120 stimuli. 43 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:33,120 Yeah. 44 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,120 I feel. 45 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,320 It's been interesting. And you and I have talked about this off air. It's been interesting 46 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:44,400 as season one is out there and folks are starting to respond to it and we're starting to get 47 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,480 some feedback and some questions. 48 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:54,760 And people want to learn more. It's been interesting. 49 00:03:54,760 --> 00:04:00,720 Interesting might not even do the word. I because of some of my experiences that we 50 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:06,960 talked about last season with criticism in my work on a school board in my town and being 51 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:12,360 just kind of a very, very vocal and visible advocate for queer youth and the families 52 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:13,860 who love them. 53 00:04:13,860 --> 00:04:21,640 I've been waiting for this other shoe to drop so far. We're hearing so much cool stuff 54 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,680 about the inspired insights podcast. People are reaching out letting us know that it inspired 55 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:32,240 a conversation in their house that they found some nuggets to take back to the school or 56 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,320 to the patient experience rooms. 57 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:43,080 And I've been I'm feeling myself waiting for that other shoe to drop and it hasn't dropped 58 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:44,640 yet. 59 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,800 But I feel like I've been conditioned to expect it now. 60 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:50,800 Yeah. 61 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:58,920 I think I'm a sort of blind optimism approach to it. Like I feel like to some extent and 62 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:08,000 I noticed this public speaking. The audiences I was addressing wholeheartedly agreed with 63 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,640 everything that I was saying and were prone to respond positively to it. 64 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,800 And I think the audiences that we are reaching with this podcast as of right now in its early 65 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:24,600 stages are primarily people that will respond positively to it. 66 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,600 They're choosing to listen for all the right reasons. 67 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:27,600 Exactly. 68 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,040 All the reasons we want them to. Yeah. To your point, you know, you've done more than 69 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:37,920 a handful of some public speaking events of late and I've been able to listen to a couple 70 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,800 of them or be part of a couple of them with you. 71 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:49,080 And you're right. Folks are there for a reason. They're there with curious minds looking to 72 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:56,480 learn and really turning to you for your lived experience, your lived perspective as somebody 73 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:01,720 who's experienced various kinds of health care, whether that's behavioral health or even 74 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,800 primary care. 75 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:11,120 And they're looking for you to help teach them how to do this differently. 76 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,080 And maybe in that doing it differently, we can find better. 77 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:22,640 Yeah. And I think it's so it's very important for health care providers to listen to patients 78 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,080 for feedback. 79 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:33,800 But I think it's so, A, it's a fantastic opportunity and B, I feel like unworthy to step up and 80 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:39,120 critique these medical professionals on what they've been educated in. 81 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:46,960 I don't feel like I'm really in a position to do that. I'm not esteemed enough. And yet 82 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,800 I'm one of the few that are willing to speak publicly on it. 83 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,920 That's right. Let me give you an analogy. And it's one of my favorite analogies to use 84 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:03,560 when I talk about feedback in health care or feedback in some of these really nuanced 85 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:10,440 fields. When you go out to eat and you order something on the menu, you're ordering it 86 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:17,200 because you have a it's going to be a new restaurant restaurant you've never been to 87 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,600 right and you order something on the menu because you think you're going to like it. 88 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:28,440 You have a sense of what's going to come in front of you. You have a sense of the ingredients, 89 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:34,240 maybe the flavor profile. You might not know how to cook it, but you have a sense of what 90 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,120 you're expecting. Yeah. 91 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,000 And then they bring that plate out and they set it in front of you and they take the top 92 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:47,520 off and go, and it looks like complete dog food. Yeah. And you smell it and it smells 93 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:55,160 like dog food and you taste it and I've not eaten dog food, but we have this imagination 94 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:04,160 of what dog food might taste like and it tastes like complete dog food. You're no chef. You 95 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:11,160 know, you're not you're not an expert in culinary arts, but you still know what you 96 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,440 like and you still know what you've come to expect. Yeah. 97 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:22,600 You don't have to give the chef feedback on do more of this less of this add this subtract 98 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:31,040 this, but the feedback is this was dog food. Never make this again. So that analogy for 99 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:39,320 me is you don't have to be a Michelin star chef to be able to give feedback on what the 100 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:44,600 experience of eating the food was like. Yeah. And that's why I view you as the healthcare 101 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:52,840 advocate. I really like that analogy. And like, I do a little home cooking on my own. 102 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:57,040 And I'm using that I was mostly taught because I do know you cook. So I realized as I was 103 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,520 using this analogy, I was like, dang, so it's going to beat up on me because Soren does 104 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:08,880 like to cook, but you get the direction of the. Yeah, I totally get that. And I think 105 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:14,920 like we can always go to a restaurant. We need to be home chefs for ourselves. That's 106 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:21,440 right. And the point of the analogy, my friend, was you can give feedback on something without 107 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:29,120 being the expert. And so I know when you've been doing these, this public speaking, you've 108 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:37,120 gone into it and left with who the heck am I to be telling Dr. So and so what to do differently. 109 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:44,720 And my challenge for all of us is to think about we don't have to be the expert to give 110 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:51,000 our experience on the perspective. Yeah, how did this feel? How did that? Did it land? 111 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:56,760 Did it not land? And some of your advocacy, especially lately, has been talking about 112 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:03,520 what worked in your experience and what didn't work. Yeah. Like the other day I got the opportunity 113 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:11,680 to speak on a panel with three other mental health professionals, specifically in the 114 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:21,520 gender, from in care space. And I was quite intimidated by it at first. But I think that 115 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:31,160 I still managed to provide very valuable insights that were specific to my viewpoint, and also 116 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:38,520 broadly applicable. Yeah. And I think a lot of kids are afraid of sharing their viewpoints 117 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,960 because for our entire lives, we've been dismissed because we're kids. We don't know anything 118 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:51,480 about anything. But I think in a number of spaces, our viewpoints are even more important 119 00:10:51,480 --> 00:11:00,080 than adults or experts to some extent. Yeah, well, it makes sense to me, especially talking 120 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:07,800 about pediatrics, or in this case, aspects of gender affirming care or mental health 121 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,920 treatment, it only makes sense to me. And this is part of my philosophy of care as a 122 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:19,920 social worker and as a provider. I want to ask the people who receive my services, how 123 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:25,680 it felt in order to get the best feedback, just because the textbooks say this is the 124 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:32,600 way to deliver this service or this care, doesn't mean it's going to land with especially 125 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:40,960 some nuanced, unique populations. Yeah, I think it's super difficult to engage with 126 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:50,160 an evidence based approach in psychology, simply because people are so mentally diverse. 127 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:59,120 And it's very difficult to have one size fits all. Like in psychology, we use diagnoses 128 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:04,000 to put people in boxes and tailor their treatment based on the box that they fit into, rather 129 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,320 than them as individuals. And I don't think that that's a productive approach, but it's 130 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:14,920 the easiest. It's the easiest. And one of the things I've heard you say in some of the 131 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:21,120 speaking that you've done of the education that you've been providing is one of the things 132 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:27,600 that you wish in your experience was that your provider built a relationship with you 133 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,000 first got to know you a little bit better before they slammed you in a box and moved 134 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:38,280 you down the conveyor belt. Yeah, but it's such a deeply personal experience to receive 135 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:44,800 behavioral health or mental health care that one thing a provider might do differently 136 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:50,560 is actually take the time to get to know you a little bit because a human. Yeah. And like, 137 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:55,560 I don't feel like my voice was heard a lot when I was receiving treatment. So now I'm 138 00:12:55,560 --> 00:13:04,320 getting loud like through advocacy, I am making my voice heard. And it's something super liberating. 139 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:10,440 And I think that kids should be getting loud about issues that they care about a lot more 140 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:16,560 than they are. Yeah. And actually, one thing about the advocacy that I have been engaging 141 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:24,280 with that I find to be somewhat perturbing is like the people who are there are prone 142 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,320 to engage with these things and have heard similar things before. So it's kind of like 143 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:33,600 an echo chamber. Yeah. I don't feel like I'm reaching new people or bringing new ideas 144 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:40,400 to people. I feel like I'm bringing up the same ideas with a different intent to the 145 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:48,640 same people. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's I think an age old conundrum in doing provider 146 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,880 education. You know, you you've helped me you and some of your friends actually helped 147 00:13:53,880 --> 00:14:01,000 me develop a curriculum for LGBTQ plus affirming behavioral health care. And so the folks 148 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:08,280 that take my courses, my trainings aren't forced to be there, right? They're self selecting 149 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:18,000 into this. And so they on day one are open and receptive to this kind of feedback. They're 150 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:24,840 not the folks that I'm worried about in this space. I'm worried about the folks who are 151 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,960 opting out of this kind of education who are a little bit more closed off to receiving 152 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:36,120 feedback on to put some of that ego aside. You know, in the school setting, I am anybody 153 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:43,720 that knows me knows that one of my soapboxes in education is it's great to teach teachers 154 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:49,200 and it's great to teach principals and school social workers and guidance and nursing. I'm 155 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:54,240 more worried about the bus drivers. I'm more worried about the dietary staff, the folks 156 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,520 working in the cafeteria. I'm more worried about the maintenance of the janitorial staff, 157 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,840 the folks that typically don't get invited to participate in these trainings yet by their 158 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:10,800 roles. They are with kids all the time. And they're often the first witnesses to things 159 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:22,000 like bullying or violence or depression, suicidality, anxiety. Bus drivers need to have mental health 160 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:32,120 first aid training to support that kid who is having a moment on the bus. Yeah. I agree 161 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:38,280 with you a lot, but also like it's a very difficult position that people who interact 162 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:45,600 with kids are put in where you're responsible for their mental well being to some extent. 163 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,720 And I don't think that bus drivers signed up to do that. That's right. The role is changed. 164 00:15:50,720 --> 00:16:01,480 Yeah. The roles that we have like parental figures and like people watching over children 165 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:07,920 is changing rapidly because we need to create more tailored environments. Yeah. And I've 166 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:14,160 heard it and yes, I agree with you as well. And I don't think you can have it both ways, 167 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:20,240 right? Yeah. The world is changing. What we know about kids are changing. The behavioral 168 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,720 health crisis which you and I have spoken on this podcast in the past has changed whether 169 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,640 that's before COVID or during or after COVID phenomenon. Part of it really doesn't even 170 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:40,200 seem super relevant to me. You can't work with children and not expect to need to intervene 171 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:49,280 at some level with mental health, with bullying, with self-esteem and self-confidence. And just 172 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:56,160 some of the tidbits that you're talking about what worked for you. I just don't think we 173 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:01,160 have a luxury anymore of saying, hey, I'm just a bus driver. I didn't sign up for this. 174 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:06,760 Yeah. I would argue you did. Knowing what we now know about what's going on for kids 175 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:17,560 today, you signed up for it. Yeah. I think, I don't know, they're service workers. They're 176 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:23,840 getting paid minimum wage. 100%. I agreed with that. And I'm the first to advocate, 177 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:37,920 like let's pay people according to the actual responsibility. Yeah. Like if I'm on a custodial 178 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:46,920 team and my job is to clean the building after when it's empty, after students and teachers 179 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:53,320 have left for the day, that's a little different for me than somebody who is on site where 180 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:59,720 kids and faculty are present. And I may be the person who finds the suicide note on the 181 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:05,640 floor that's fallen out of a locker or a duffel bag. I might be the first responder to a fight 182 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:11,080 that's broken out. I might be the first responder in a restroom bathroom and I see bullying happening 183 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:18,880 or I see substance use happening. So the skill set of somebody who's on site with kids during 184 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:25,160 the day is maybe different to your point than after school hours. Yeah. And maybe the compensation 185 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,240 because the training needs to be different. Maybe compensation needs to reflect that as 186 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:38,200 well. Yeah. I totally agree. Can I ask you a question? Go for it. What has been your 187 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:45,960 inspiration to find this voice? What has led you to want to do this advocacy work? 188 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:57,160 If you've listened to the podcast, you know I love to talk. And I love to think and I like to 189 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:05,000 think that I can impact others. And I love the idea of creating a positive impact. 190 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:11,480 And I'm super grateful because I've been given these opportunities primarily by like my mother 191 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:18,040 because she is super involved or was super involved in the space. And now through her 192 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:31,000 connections, I've been able to come do some of these speaking events. I would say my muse for 193 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:41,400 like public speaking is the exhilaration and the showmanship of it. I've done theater my entire 194 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:48,600 high school career and my middle school career when it wasn't COVID times. And I love being on a 195 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:58,120 stage. I like all eyes on me. Not necessarily in my daily life, but I like being evocative as well. 196 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:08,200 And like public speaking just makes me super excited. And like I was quite hesitant at first, 197 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,400 but mama provided me these opportunities. I was like, sure, yeah, I'll do it. And now, 198 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:18,840 especially after the panel that I did recently, I'm super excited. I want more opportunities. 199 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:24,040 Yeah, it's getting you fired up. Yeah, I want my voice heard. And it's like, I need to 200 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:30,920 carpet diem. I need to seize the day. Well, and to your point, so many youth don't feel comfortable 201 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:37,640 sharing their perspective. And so when like yourself, when there's somebody who's more comfortable, 202 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:44,280 maybe more confident, or in the absence of comfort or confidence, the ability to put that 203 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:51,160 aside momentarily to still get the job done. When those folks exist, they're not going to 204 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:58,280 be able to. And when those folks exist, I think there's a little bit of a calling that, yeah, 205 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:03,880 I have a voice that I need to lend to somebody who might not be able to right now. 206 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:14,360 Yeah, I think as kids, we have the like children will be listened to if they shout loud enough. 207 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:22,600 I think a lot of adults now, given that our youth are in crisis, to a large extent, are far more 208 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:34,920 open to listening to our opinions, thoughts, and experiences. And we as youth need to take advantage 209 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:44,680 of that to try to implement some of the changes that we want. And I think like kids are not 210 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:52,760 brain dead. We have opinions on things, and we want our voices heard. And we have value very 211 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:59,640 valuable insights. And I think we need to realize that although in the past, our voices haven't 212 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:06,840 been that powerful, they're growing in strength. And we need to ride that wave and create the 213 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:12,440 change that we want. Yeah, well, as somebody who's going to be 18 next year, and voting age, 214 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:22,600 with that, I think comes a responsibility to also get more informed and to start taking 215 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:31,160 what might be these nuggets of an opinion into some tangible actionable items that you can 216 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:36,040 exercise before you turn 18. And then certainly when you turn 18 and start start entering the 217 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:45,960 voting world. Yeah, I totally agree. What's been your biggest discovery about yourself in your 218 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:58,840 newly found role as advocate? My biggest discovery. I think I've discovered a passion for it to some 219 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:06,440 extent. And that you're good at. I don't know if I'm not gonna know. You're good at it. And I think I 220 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:16,280 have discovered a world of people that will listen. When like, I talk often about the viewership of 221 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:22,360 this podcast, I don't like looking at the youth around me, I don't feel like youth will find 222 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:27,480 this entertaining or something to engage with. But there are people that find what I have to say 223 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:33,240 entertaining and valuable to engage with. And my discovery has been people who are interested 224 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:43,720 in the same things that I am. Yeah. And it's super exciting for me. I feel. And let's let's take it 225 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:50,600 to you because you've been an advocate and a loud voice in the space for far longer than I have. 226 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:58,120 What are some of the things that you've yielded and learned from your veteran status as an 227 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:06,360 advocate? Great question. And I'm gonna maybe do this a little bit of like old man on the mountain 228 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:15,400 for you. When I first started doing public speaking and training and especially around 229 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:21,080 queer youth and ways to better support and care for them, I experienced that echo chamber 230 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:27,080 effect that you were talking about like the people in my audiences wanted to be there. 231 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:34,760 They sought out this expertise. They were truly invested in changing their practices to do better 232 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:44,920 for the youth that they are serving. Over time, I found that the audiences weren't 233 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:55,240 so always so eager and willing to be there. That as DEI and the Diversity and Inclusion 234 00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:01,000 Belonging efforts progressed forward as some of this training has become mandatory and I'll get 235 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:08,760 back to that idea in a second. Some of my audience members didn't necessarily have a choice to be 236 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,640 there and that is reflected in their body language. That is reflected in their comments. That's 237 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:19,800 reflected in their feedback both directly to me and then in anonymous surveying afterwards. Like 238 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:27,400 I'm pretty good at in a group of 30 people. If there's one person or two people who are clearly 239 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:33,960 telling me non-verbally they don't want to be there, that typically matches their feedback on the 240 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:40,520 evaluation forms afterwards. And so I think for me it's been learning how to respond to 241 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:52,200 the negative feedback responding to the very intense criticism and responding to the haters 242 00:25:52,840 --> 00:26:00,360 who think we're overstepping, who think that we need to get back to reading, writing, arithmetic, 243 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:06,120 and all this stuff about gender and sexuality and blah blah blah. We are indoctrinating the youth. 244 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:13,560 We're grooming the youth, all of this stuff. And especially over the last three or so years, 245 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:21,320 I've had to figure out my own skin around that. I've had to figure out how I respond to criticism 246 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:29,000 and how I respond to criticism externally and how I respond to the criticism internally. And I 247 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:35,480 will tell you so in the internal response is much harder for me than the external response because 248 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:42,840 I can put on the professional Chris vibe and I can smile and I can thank you for letting me know 249 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,520 that's really helpful feedback going forward. I really appreciate your thoughts on the matter. 250 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:55,480 And on the inside, I'm screaming or crying. I'm a quivering mess on the inside. So it's been that 251 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,320 balance for me of finding these new skills and I'm not perfect at it by any stretch. 252 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:07,960 I think the old man on the mountain to you is those hater voices are out there. They're not yet 253 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:17,480 in the crowds, but they will be. I don't I really want it actually. I really want to get the opportunity 254 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,320 to reach people that disagree with me and find what I'm saying to be absurd and counter cultural to 255 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:30,440 the point of it being destructive. And I really want to have conversations with those people. 256 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:36,360 Like I would love to invite on to the podcast. Someone that wholeheartedly disagrees with 257 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:43,160 everything that we stand for. And I was cringing at that conversation with them. Well, like, 258 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:51,080 obviously, it's scary to welcome people who don't like us into our safe space. But without 259 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:58,760 doing that, we can't expand our safe space. Right. Yeah. And I think I love getting to know 260 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:05,960 the way that people rationalize our thought processes. I think I've spent a lot of time 261 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:13,640 rationalizing and trying to understand and unwind my opinions. And I want to do the same 262 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:20,680 for others and try to reach a common ground. And like, I don't like the echo chamber. I feel 263 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:28,680 like I'm like just running my wheels in the mud, not getting any getting anywhere. And I just like 264 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,400 you you see that as a bad thing. And I understand how it can be emotionally harmful. And it likely 265 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:39,160 would be like, oh, quite upsetting to me as well. But also, in those moments where people are 266 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:46,360 disagreeing with us, and yet, our voices are still reaching them is the greatest opportunity I feel 267 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:55,960 and the most exciting part of it. Yeah, I am so impressed by and jealous of your optimism 268 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:04,600 with what can come from two opposing perspectives coming together in meaningful dialogue. I 269 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:11,000 unfortunately saw and we talked a lot about this in an episode of season one. 270 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:23,720 I don't necessarily find value in trying to convince somebody that their way is right, 271 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:31,160 or their way is wrong. And so I let me give you another analogy, you know, I like to speak in 272 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:42,440 analogies and metaphors, right? Here in our state, we have discovered recently that 25% of 273 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,760 young people, high school students, identify somewhere on the LGBTQ plus continuum, right, 274 00:29:48,760 --> 00:30:01,960 25%, one in four. I am fairly certain that if one in four kids were allergic to bees, every single 275 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:09,560 adult, every single adult would be trained in EpiPen use. And we would have EpiPens on every 276 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:16,680 adult person's body, they'd be in hallways, you wouldn't walk 10 steps without being able to grab 277 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:27,640 an EpiPen. If one in four kids were allergic to bees, adults would be trained to protect 25% of kids. 278 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:36,360 If 25% of kids are queer, I feel like we as adults have the same responsibility 279 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:43,800 to protect them. And the way we have protect queer youth is around education, around needs, 280 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:53,080 proper terminology, stages of coming out, the whole idea of pronouns and dead names and preferred 281 00:30:53,080 --> 00:31:01,160 names, and mental health first aid, the way that we create trauma informed spaces, resist 282 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:14,760 re-traumatization of individuals. And that's not happening. And so I feel like we have a mandate, 283 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,800 and I don't think Maine is much different than any other state, frankly, in the country. I feel like 284 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:29,800 we have a mandate though in our state to mitigate risk and train adults to keep 25% of our young 285 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:35,800 and well. That's not happening. That's one of the soapboxes that I'm out and about with all the time. 286 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:44,520 I don't care if you believe that allergy to bee stings is real or not. I don't need you 287 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,640 to agree with the science that this is what happens in your body, that this kid isn't faking their 288 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:58,760 throat closing up, or their body swelling, an anaphylactic shock, for you to be able to deliver 289 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:10,840 that epi shot. And if you have some philosophical resistance to injecting somebody with a chemical, 290 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:19,080 then this isn't the job for you. That's how I view, how strongly I view my perspective on 291 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:28,520 teaching adults how to better care for queer kids. Whether or not you agree with it or not, 292 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:35,960 if you choose to work in this sector, guess what? These are competencies just like first aid and 293 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:43,080 other mandatory trainings. This is a part of the mandatory education that you must be part of. 294 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:53,560 Therefore, the debate on if allergies to bee stings is real or not isn't even relevant 295 00:32:53,560 --> 00:33:00,680 for me. I don't need to convince you of the science for me to do my job. 296 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:09,400 I totally agree with you. I've echoed very similar sentiments previously. 297 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,880 But at the same time, if these people don't believe in the treatment that they're giving, 298 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:25,240 or the experience that they children are having, they can't provide that treatment as effectively. 299 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:37,000 The thing that trainings don't do is create open dialogue effectively because they're imposed on 300 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:43,800 people rather than creating a common space for two individuals to interact on equal footing. 301 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:52,520 Yeah. And I think that interacting on equal footing is so valuable to changing minds. 302 00:33:52,520 --> 00:34:00,120 And I like changing minds rather than telling people what's going on. Carrots or 303 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:05,480 carrots or hammers, right? But I totally agree with you, too. It's difficult. 304 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:12,200 It is difficult. And again, I respect your optimism around the magic that can happen when two 305 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:20,760 sides come together. And if we were engaged in a meaningful dialogue around does pineapple belong 306 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:27,080 on pizza, yes or no, I'll have that discussion. I'm a pro-pineapple person, by the way. Are you 307 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:33,720 pro-pineapple? I used to only get Hawaiian. Yeah. Oh, now you don't. Well, I just prefer, I hate my 308 00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:40,680 sauce on pizza. I prefer pasta. Got it. So when I have met people who are anti-pineapple on pizza, 309 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,320 I'll have that discussion all day because at the end of that day, what's really on the line 310 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:53,400 is our taste buds, right? If the world will continue to revolve and no harm comes whether we 311 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,600 get on the same page or not. I don't believe that's the case, especially when we're talking about 312 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:08,360 queer youth in public education. So for me, there's so much on the line with this topic that 313 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,960 maybe that, as I'm talking about this out loud with you right now, so maybe that is a little bit, 314 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:21,000 what's driving my perspective on this. We have too much on the line. I can't waste any more time 315 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:27,080 trying to convince you that pineapple on pizza is really, really yummy. I just need you to serve the 316 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:37,560 pizza. Yeah. Right. And so I'm also very aware that as much as you and I love the advocacy 317 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:45,720 roles that we have found ourselves in, there are people this very minute in time who are advocating 318 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:53,560 justice strongly for the things that we, against the things that you and I stand for. And there are 319 00:35:53,560 --> 00:36:00,520 trainings that happen in our state, in our country, every single day, training people on how to fight 320 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:09,000 against people like you and I. Yeah. And so there's just like all of this energy into who's right 321 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:16,520 and who's wrong, that I am so confident that I'm right on this issue, that our kids are at risk. 322 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:23,560 And if we do not get intentional in creating safer spaces for them, lives are in danger. 323 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:32,600 I feel to my soul that I am right. I'm on the right side of this issue, that I'm going to continue 324 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:41,560 to do the advocacy work and not necessarily give a whole lot of more energy to the extreme haters. 325 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:47,880 Yeah. Does that make sense? I mean, I, I, I really, I love your perspective and I want 326 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:56,920 to get there. And if we're debating pineapple and pizza, great. When we're debating kids' lives, 327 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:05,880 I just can't get my head around trying to convince somebody, especially, and I'm going to try to say 328 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:12,280 this in a way that is as respectful as possible, because I truly do believe that diversity is 329 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:18,680 important and an element of diversity is religion and an element of diversity is spirituality and 330 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:30,120 an element of diversity is people's relationship to their God. And as soon as that argument gets 331 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:39,640 put on the table, I've got to like, I'm out. If, if somebody's, if the crutch of somebody's argument 332 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:46,280 against what we're talking about is, well, the Bible tells me this or God tells me that, 333 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,040 it's really hard for me as a clinical social worker, as a member of the queer community, 334 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:59,880 as somebody who makes a living doing this work. It's hard for me to go toe to toe with that. 335 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:07,240 I love that. You love that piece though. Historically though, like we can look at 336 00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:16,280 the day that, for example, like the passages in the New Testament that people think are like 337 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:24,600 anti-queer passages that Paul writes about are, and obviously I'm not a biblical expert, 338 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:35,400 are in the context of like ancient Roman sexual normalities. And most of them are simply talking 339 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:43,800 about how one should not be heavily promiscuous, like a man should not be having sex with people 340 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:54,200 in a similar socioeconomic status to him. And a lot of the more like intense wordings are just 341 00:38:54,200 --> 00:39:01,000 straight up mistranslations, especially in the King James Bible. I know intentionally 342 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:08,360 that that Bible was regularly mistranslated in order to make it more representative of the 343 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:19,000 worldview in medieval England, which like, I love having those arguments because we can look at the 344 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:30,120 historicity of these things and we can look at the theological roots of modern religions to 345 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:38,920 untangle this fact. And you are 150 times more learned in this topic than I am and that I ever 346 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:49,320 will be. Like I say this to my husband and other family and friends. At my age, the real estate 347 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:57,160 going on up in my brain is pretty maxed. Like, and if I'm gonna, if this, and I realize I am 348 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:04,680 dripping with privilege when I say this, if I'm going to fill up any gaps, any holes in the real 349 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,240 estate of my brain, it's going to be with like Taylor Swift, it's going to be with like artwork, 350 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:16,840 it's going to be with like learning something new for the sake of me. I'm not interested. I don't 351 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:27,480 have capacity in my brain anymore to fill in more real estate with religious passages or theology. 352 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:33,480 I'm going to look to folks like you and young people like you that are coming in to this advocacy 353 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:41,800 space to help me with that toe to toe piece. And all day long, Soren, you and I find ourselves 354 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:49,080 in the wrestling ring with folks who are throwing that kind of stuff around. My first response is 355 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:56,440 going to be to turn around, high five you, tag your ret, come on in and I'll go sit back and watch 356 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:03,320 because I just can't bring myself to even go there. Yeah, this place in my life. I think too, 357 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:10,680 it's like, I just straight up like theology. I like engaging with it. Like our school at a 358 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:16,360 like Bible club before school. Oh, yeah, you've talked about this. I went there five or six times. 359 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:24,280 Like, I like it and I like a lot of Christians, I think, but they're lovely folks. And I don't think 360 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:34,840 that like bigotry and Christianity are like tied. Let me be super clear by no stretch of the 361 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:46,760 imagination. I painting folks with a broad brush of all these people feel this way. I am surrounded 362 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:58,040 by the most caring, compassionate allies who also are regular churchgoers. I'm surrounded by 363 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:06,680 folks who are have master's degree in theology and they are ranking members of their church 364 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:13,320 who also are the first to wave at me at the corner of the Pride Parade as we march by. So I 365 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:22,520 by no means saying all these people are this. I have found some very loud critics. This is part 366 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:30,680 of the downside of advocacy, right? I have found some of the most loud voices trying to chop me down 367 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:40,760 happen to also try to cite these justifying there. Hey, give me a religious text. 100%. So I 368 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,760 I think that is one of the risks of being out there as an advocate. And I know 369 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:53,560 as you continue this journey of advocacy and leveraging your voice, you're going to find 370 00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:02,200 some of those voices. And I love that you are already kind of ready feeling a little bit more 371 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:11,000 ready than I have been to take some of that on. I look forward to it. I like I really I do want to 372 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,880 have conversations with people that thoroughly disagree with me. Because then when I can change 373 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,920 someone's mind, I feel like I'm really making progress. Like I feel like I'm in the leads of 374 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:27,400 it like talking to my grandfather and my grandfather's wife. I think that I've transitioned the way 375 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:33,400 that they view some of these these things quite considerably through my conversations with them. 376 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:41,640 And that is like that one on one changing minds advocacy is the most exciting part of it for me. 377 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:49,880 Yeah. And are you feeling okay for those moments in time where you're not going to be able to move 378 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:58,040 the needle for them? Yeah, I don't resent them for that. And like, I think the more people 379 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:03,640 perseverate on their opinions, the more entrenched they become in them. And I see this in myself. 380 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:10,520 I see this in the people around me. And I like specifically in old people. I think that that's 381 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:17,400 something that's very prevalent. It's confirmation bias, right? Yeah, as humans have a tendency to 382 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:24,360 seek out information that validates our current world. Yeah. And ignore or dismiss anything that 383 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:32,280 might challenge our thinking. As humans, we prefer the safety of our own way of thinking. 384 00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:38,120 And when we are challenged, we can bristle, we can stiff arm, we can try to push it away, 385 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,920 like kind of scratch at it like the tag in the back of a new shirt. It's still there, 386 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,880 but we do whatever we can do to try to distance ourselves from it. I think as long as someone 387 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:54,920 isn't taking action and hurting others with their opinions, it's foolish to resent them for that. 388 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:04,520 Yes, I agree with that. I like again, I value diversity of thought. As people who are members 389 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:16,200 of the LGBTQ plus community, you and I, it is so different. We're no longer talking about pineapple 390 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:22,280 and pizza. We're talking about our lives. Yeah. And so that for me gets a little line in the sand. 391 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:35,400 Yeah. Let's end on a happy positive note. What has been your favorite advocacy moment of the last 392 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:45,080 couple months? My favorite speaking engagement was when I got to do the panel brought together by 393 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:52,040 our very own Derek Harder. Yes. My husband and our designer of the music for our podcast. 394 00:45:52,040 --> 00:46:03,240 Indeed. I came away from that conversation feeling so rewarded and so excited. And also 395 00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:12,360 another favorite advocacy moment for me was I was talking to one of my friends about the queer 396 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:18,520 experience and they were like, huh, I never thought of it that way. And I was like, wow, 397 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,960 that's very powerful. Yeah. And I think as advocates, we have to similar to what we talked 398 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:30,360 about in a previous episode just this season about collecting joy as advocates, we have to 399 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:36,200 collect those moments where we see the needle moving and bank those so we can reflect back on 400 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:42,280 them when the conversations aren't going so well. Totally. Yeah. I'm so proud of you. I just want 401 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:49,720 you to know that I'm so proud of this. I really am. I'm so proud of you. It takes strength. It 402 00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:55,400 takes courage. It takes vulnerability to put yourself out there and your story out there 403 00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:01,960 for the world to reflect on it. And you are moving the needle. You may not be able to see the change 404 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:07,160 right now, but you're moving the needle. So until the next time, I am Chris DeBlois. I'm 405 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:12,680 Sean Peterson and this has been the Inspired Insights podcast. Thank you so much for listening.