Welcome back everyone. Welcome to the Inspired Insights podcast. This week, we're continuing
our two-part episode featuring Soren and I's younger brothers. If you haven't already listened
to part one, I'm going to recommend that you start there. Once you're caught up, jump back
into the conversation with us. The Inspired Insights podcast is for informational and
entertainment purposes only and should not be considered health advice. This podcast is not
intended to replace professional medical advice. Please note that this podcast may contain
discussions on sensitive topics such as mental illness, suicide, and substance use. If you are
experiencing a behavioral health crisis or need support, please contact the 9-8-8 suicide and
crisis lifeline by calling 9-8-8 or visiting www.9-8-8 lifeline.org. Me and Soren, at least in the young
age, we're very, very different. Me and Soren were like best friends for years and years and years
growing up. We were constantly together. We were always hanging out. It was me, Soren,
Nick, and Tim who are our cousins. We were always hanging out every summer. It was like,
we're all best friends and everything like that growing up through. And then I feel like that was
another thing that made Soren's mental health and everything like that, like the downfall of that
so much harder was the loss of that friendship. Because you were not only losing a brother,
but you were losing a best friend. And those experiences changed a lot. And then Soren coming
out of the like Soren's depression, everything like that, I feel like our relationship still
degraded because there was a lot of hurt between the two of us, which changed the way we were
interacting and everything like that. And just those experiences that we had now shared, everything
completely changed the relationship between us. Coming further, like closer to now, our relationship
is definitely healing a lot more. We are becoming friends once again, something like that. But it's
still not that original shape that it once was. Yeah. And I think I did a lot of the damage there
because I was angry, I was sad. And I would take a lot of it out on Bodhi. And we won fisticuffs
very often. But I would always, because Bodhi's immediate response back then was physical violence.
Yeah. And my immediate response was needling. Yeah. So yeah, I think I was the needler.
I would intentionally go to Bodhi into grabbing a weapon. And then I'd call the parents and then
Bodhi's about to attempt to assail me with a weapon. Right. And I'm just sitting, look at me.
Oh, I can relate Soren. I'm so innocent. I'm just sitting here. Bodhi's trying to hurt me.
Yeah. But it was mostly my fault. And like, I think the recovery of our relationship was
hurt to some extent by the amount of scar tissue built up. Yeah. And just like, I felt like I
couldn't talk to Bodhi anymore because I had done so many bad things to him. Right. Well, like you
said, you had that guilt. Yeah. I still do. I just feel really guilty. And then whenever me and Bodhi
get into a tough, I'll end up sitting there sad because like, I'm doing the exact thing that I
did when I was an asshole. Yeah. What I think I know about your relationship and your lives now is
you have your unique group of friends. Bodhi has your unique group of friends. And there's still a
lot of crossover. Like you all might hike together or walk the tracks together or do it overnight
together. Go ahead. Yeah. I think now during the summers and stuff, there is more crossover because
obviously a lot of Bodhi's friends are hanging out by the lake. And I'm also there and I'll bring my
friends out to the lake a lot. And I think it's definitely like, it's fun. The more bodies are at
a party, the littier it is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that has also been a step in healing our
relationship. Yeah. That's where I was going to that is that as you are able to have your own
lives, but also feel very comfortable crossing over those lives, that relationship starts to
form in a different way. Does it feel that way for you? I mean, yeah, like it's definitely a
different thing, but I don't know how much of that is because of the experience behind it. But as
much as we've just grown and changed where we're different people than we were, that's right. Five,
six, seven, eight years ago. Yeah. Where like, it's hard to compare your young childhood to your
adolescence to your like everything like that. Where I don't know how you're supposed to compare
your five-year-old thoughts to your now maturing, turning into adult thoughts, where I don't know,
that's hard to figure out where the difference is and where the similarity is. Right. Right. So.
Well, I think the opportunity that you have when you're in a family is that you can have struggle
that moves you apart, but unlike maybe a friend that may come and go when you're in a family,
and then maybe not all families are like this, but it sounds like in our collective families,
you maintain together. And so the relationship can evolve and grow despite any time period that
would have driven two people who aren't in a family apart. And so I mean, I look at you now
and then like, you help me out immensely with everything from protector to counselor,
to very specific, tangible thing that I need favors that I might need or whatever. So,
our relationship looks now very recognizable to a very traditional older brother, younger brother.
Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. I think, again, if you had told me in fourth grade,
as I've got these bloody scars down the side of my bruises on my back, I would have been like,
you're not the total victim. True. True. But again, if you had told us then, I would never
have bought it. And I think kind of, Paulus Bodhi, what you were saying is that who we were then,
who we were in college, going to college around the same time and who we are as adults are
completely different yet that sibling bond thread still kind of pulls through all of them.
For sure. And if we had time, I'd like to get into what the experience was for Bodhi,
maybe share my experience during the coming out. Yeah. And sort of how that felt for you.
Hmm. Well, Soren was always very obviously queer, right? So,
even when Soren said the words like, I'm gay and came out, it was no surprise to anyone in our
family. Do you actually remember a conversation? Is there a conversation that you remember Soren
having with you? Was there a moment of actual coming out? I don't remember one. No. Yeah. It
was just kind of always obviously on the table that that was that. So it wasn't really an
experience for me. It was like, this has always been my brother. It's in the reality. Yeah. Do
you remember Soren at a time where you, you might not have said those words, but maybe you referenced
an attraction to a boy or a character on TV or a figure? Yeah. I think like, the first conversation
that I remember having with Mama about it was like, I say is like my coming out. Yeah, I love this
story. Was she was sitting in her room watching TV. And I came in. And I think that there was
something going on at the TV that I was like, wow, I like that. Yeah. And then I had a brief
conversation with my mom and she primarily reacted with concern. Right. She was like, this could
prove an issue. Yeah. But that really is like the only proper example of coming out that I like,
obviously I've told other people that I'm gay through innuendos, but I think it's fairly apparent.
Yeah. Nor in your story, it's just, I think, been the reality you've always known. Yeah. And to some
level, I would suggest to you, your parents have probably probably knew that as well. And for
whatever reason you see, you leaned into it and it just became a known reality of your household.
But it's all you kind of remember. Yeah. Especially because both of us were so young, too. Right.
Good point. Like, I have to be honest, I don't remember a lot of my childhood. And I think
a lot of that comes as a result of when I was unwell intentionally scrubbing it. Right.
But I just, I don't remember a ton of what was happening. Yeah. I obviously, I remember how
close our relationship was, hanging out with our cousins every single day of the entire summer,
every summer. Yeah. But as Bodhi was saying, it's very difficult to compare and contrast. Yeah.
Because of how distorted my memories are of that time and how I was able to get along with my
distorted, my memories are of that time and how different my perspective was. Sure. When you think
about, when you think about Soren, this Bodhi's point about it's just kind of always been there,
it's kind of always been assumed. Do you think at some level, it was easier that way? It was easier
not having to say the words out loud to all these different individuals in your life?
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. But also it brings up difficulty because when people can look at you
and listen to you and be like, oh, that's a gay person. That's right. Like you're wearing a sign
or strobe light over your head. It also creates a lot of friction sometimes, right? So I would say,
yes, it's easier because like that's an awkward conversation to have. And obviously,
like, I don't know, I don't go shouting to the rooftops that I'm gay. I go shouting and people
are like, oh, you're gay. Yeah. I think it certainly made it more organic, natural, a little
easier with people that I trust and are totally chill, but also a little harder with those
individuals that maybe I wouldn't want my sexuality that they're close to. That's right. From a safety
perspective. Yeah. But it is disclosed to them purely as a result of who I am, right? Sure.
And I, so I'll be curious to hear your thoughts because in my mind, when I think, when I kind of
watched the movie playback of who I was as a kid, like there was no doubt in anybody's mind. Like I
think some of my, our family members would say when those words were said out loud, it was like,
where you been for the last 18, 20, 30 years, right? Like it was very, very apparent, but my
story I think is a little different given the age that I was when I formally did that. But I'll be
curious to hear your thoughts on it. I think from my perspective, right before you came out,
there was a feeling like of, will you just get on with it? Right. You know, there was a, right,
there was a particular girlfriend you had at the time. Oh, right. That was like, it was just
clearly a mismatch. Right. And, and so, so it was, it was kind of almost not comical. I don't want
to say that being dismissive, but when I look back on it, it almost kind of was comical. Right. It
was like, it was the end of the fumbling. Right. Right. Right. Right. And, and so when you came out
and I don't, I want to, I'm trying to convince myself that I remember the phone call, but I don't
know that I do. Yeah. And, and, but when you came out, I just remember feeling like so much happiness
for you. Yeah. And maybe it was because we were feeling like, just get on with it, but it was like,
oh, Chris is now going to be able to bring his genuine self, right, to everything he does. There's
no more of this secret or no more of this pretending. Right. And, and, and a sort of a,
a feeling like there was an understanding, but not one. It wasn't my experience of like how hard that
must have been. Right. And so just, you know, we, I know I was very relieved for you and happy for
you. I know your mother was very concerned about you. Your mom had some, some stereotypes about
what gay men your age did at night and those dangerous situations they put themselves in.
And the absence of grandchildren. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And so I remember
having the same conversations for their back then that I had the other night. Yeah. Come on, you
just, you got to get over this. Right. That's right. So, so I think my experience for you are
coming out was an incredibly positive, happy one. Yeah. And that's how I remember it too. I also
don't necessarily remember. I, I did a very long staged approach of this group of friends knew,
then this group of friends, why then a couple siblings, you know, well, Soren and I talk about
the word shame often in some of our conversations and how that kind of always is in the background
to different levels. And as a therapist and a clinical social worker, I also know it's always
there in the background when I'm working with other people. And so the same is true for me. It
was, it was shame. It was wanting things to be different and that the girlfriend, which you
reference, who I have an amazing relationship with today. And we've actually recently just talked
about this through some of the conversations in our first season of the podcast, that she's
listened to and been able to really open up some really important conversations with she and I,
but anyway, and I meant no slight towards her. No, not at all. Not at all. But she is,
yeah, she's good with it. And so, but I think it was, what's the, what's the metaphor I'm thinking,
you know, like you bait a hook and maybe cast it out, see how that works. If it's successful,
then you might bait a couple more hooks. And if it's not successful, then you put the fishing
box away and carry on. So it was, it was, it was trial and error. So you were hoping to get back
allies. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. If, if the people I told also felt like I was okay,
that I was going to be okay. I think that was the perspective. Yeah. To pivot the conversation
slightly, me and you, Chris, obviously have quite boisterous out there personalities. And we
are both the older sibling. Right. I know that me overshadowing, overshadowing Bodhi has been
an issue or at least something that's very prevalent because I did, and to some extent still do
require more maintenance from my parents. And I also take up more space in a room. And I'm also
competitive with Bodhi. So I was wondering, I know obviously Bodhi talked about how my taking up
resources helped him create his strong sense of individualism, but what was it like for you to,
to develop your own identities in the shadow of a louder, older sibling? That's a great question.
Hmm. It's definitely a hard question to answer. There's a lot to process behind that. Um,
I mean, when you're struggling, you were definitely trying to change yourself, right?
You were, you disliked who you were as an individual. Um, and I think that kind of
carried throughout the family at the same time though, at that time you saw, I lost a bunch of
weight, started at like, started to work out, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you started to
work out, blah, blah, blah. And I think a lot of that was your self doubt and everything carried on
into me. Um, where, yeah, I was, I was obviously a very privileged, straight white man and I was
like clear, it was clear to myself that I was obviously more normal, but there was still
still a difference. And with the confusion of you, it brought confusion to me. So I
obviously was trying to figure out myself as an individual too. And I ended up leading towards the
more jock like, as you would say, stereotypical jock, um, of an individual. And at that time,
I kinda was messing around with who I was to now figure out, like I would say that I'm pretty
confident in who I am as an individual now. And I understand who I am and I understand my own
thought process, everything like that. But at the time I didn't. Um, and with you being such a bold
character and pulling so much attention from the family, it allowed me to do so much more
and figure myself out at a much younger age than a lot of other people because I was able to
experiment and everything like that and not have to worry about the viewpoints of you or
our parents and everything like that. So do you feel like you're flying under the radar?
Yeah. And still today you're able to fly under that radar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would still say
that I can do as, do as I please and, uh, not see that parenting that I want at times when I don't
want that parent. Right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. How about you, Nate? Do you, I'll be curious your
thoughts about space in the room and being able to find yourself in the, maybe a shadow. See,
I think I had the opposite. Yeah. That's what I was thinking too. I think I, I attempted to take
up space. Yep. To, to, to be stereotypically heterosexual, to be stereotypically popular,
to be, to balance. You were the yin to the yang I was thrown out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and
maybe it was, I don't, I don't know that there was a lot of intention behind it at the time. I think
I just saw the, the struggle that, that you were going through the, maybe the struggle that you
just had with other people. Yeah. And sought to, to avoid that. Yeah. You know, for myself, I would
say that, that wasn't healthy. As I, as I look back on it, I think those are the, the masks you
learned to wear. Yeah. That aren't your genuine self. Hanging out with the in crowd got me drinking
at a much too early age. Right. That I've had to deal with. Right. You know, later in life. So,
you know, those not bringing your authentic self to all your situations. Yeah. Generally leads to
no good. Regardless of sexuality or gender. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, that you, that's about how I thought
you were going to respond to that. That I, that's what I, that's jiving with my memories as well.
And again, back then it looked like it was coming so easy for you. But I think, you know,
the time period that we're talking about, like this is the hallmark of puberty and adolescence.
Is awkwardness, insecurity, inner conflict, trying to figure out who you are and how you fit into the
world. Um, wanting to be cared for. And at the same time, wanting to be independent and not get
attention from the parental units, a little bit of both. And so I think when you, in the best of
times, adolescent sucks. And then you throw, whether it's us trying to figure out who we are
and some of the crap that came with that, or living in a household, watching people struggle
in their own ways and trying to deal with that on top of your own stuff. Yeah. It's, it's a awful,
awful, awful part of our lives. But, you know, but the encouragement you'd get, I'd give to anybody
who's maybe listening to this, it's at that place. Yeah. Currently it's going through it. It's like,
it's, if you stick with it, you get to a good place. And, and then when you're at a good place,
you look back on the path that got you there and you're great. And you can be grateful for it. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's sort of what your insight was that kicked off our episode today was that
those mistakes and yeah, the mistakes and wrong doings are looked at in the present as like a
negative. Right. But when, once you move forward and you look back, you're like, oh, well, that was
definitely a negative, but there's a lot more positive that came from it. 100%. And I would say
that Nate and I's relationship today was forged. We are, we have the relationship today because of
some of the not so great stuff of the past that are, you know, in the moment, it was, it was awful
for different perspectives on that. But we have shared traumas to get that, that, you know, that
are very unique to you and I. That's right. That's right. So, you know, I think that's one of the
things I'm taking from this conversation as well is it does get better. We're works in progress.
The better days are still ahead. And I'm just hopeful that through the start of this conversation,
as I look at you and your brother, Sorin, that you can continue these conversations maybe, and
maybe this has kind of opened the door to keep those conversations going off camera, when you can
maybe lean into the conversation a little bit more personally. Yeah. I think that like people
tend to interpret change as negative. Yeah. And the times that we often view as typically negative
are just times of great change. Yeah. Like middle school or like freshman year of college. Right.
And beyond. And beyond. And some, I think the greatest opportunity that Being Siblings presents
is that you're roughly of the equivalent age and you have super similar life experiences. Yeah.
Because you come from the same family. Right. But you get to view those life experiences through
totally different lenses. Yeah. So it gives you the opportunity to see what you're experiencing
from a different angle. And I think that's to a large extent the utility of these conversations.
Yeah. I hope so too. I hope so too. So I think with that, we'll give people an opportunity for
some last thoughts. And then we'll wrap for the day. Nate, last thoughts. Just thank you for this
opportunity. I've never done a podcast. I'm very much more about experiences these days. And so I've
very much enjoyed this experience. There's some topics that came up today that I want to follow
up with you on. Yeah. There's places in our relationship that I think can still improve.
Yeah. You know, we're works in progress. So my final thought is not very insightful. It's really
just to thank you for this opportunity. And I've really enjoyed myself. Yeah. Thanks. Bode,
final thought. I guess my final thought would just be like, look at your siblings as allies.
Not enemies. Yeah. Because there's only ones that actually have that similar upbringing and
experiences and actually understand them the same way that not understand them the same way, but
differently, but still there's that similarity where no one else is going to understand where
your parents try to understand, but they don't. Yeah. It's really only you and your siblings that
have that same upbringing that you can relate. So use your siblings as an ally and not an enemy and
allow yourself to grow with them and not apart. That's a great, well said. Yeah. All right. A
few years ago, I don't think that I didn't think that I would ever be in, well, I didn't think
that I'd be alive, first of all. But second of all, if I continued to live, I didn't think that I
would ever be in a place where I could look at Bode in the eye without being grief-stricken
because of all the damage that I had done to him. And I'm just super grateful that I've,
and Bode's given me the opportunity to heal and attempt to rekindle the flame of our relationship.
And this is a super cool opportunity that we get to have both of you on.
So thank you two fellows. Yeah. And that's my, I'm also in a place of gratitude to just thank you
both for your willingness to come and have these conversations and share your thoughts with us and
lean into some memories, some good, and some not so great. So thank you so much. This has been
another episode of the Inspired Insights podcast. I'm Chris McGowan. I'm Sorin Peterson. And thank
you so much for listening. Have a lovely day. Thanks you too. Thank you. Thank you. The Inspired
Insights podcast has been brought to you by Inspired Consulting Group LLC. Edited and produced
by Amanda Seidel and Derek Herter. Marketing support for the Inspired Insights podcast by
Elizabeth Keenan. Music by Derek Herter. Please visit www.inspiredcg.com to learn more. Copyright
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