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Soren, welcome back to the Inspired Insights podcast.
Yippee!
I love that that's turning into your signature greeting.
Oh I say yippee constantly.
Oh I love it.
We have to like hashtag yippee.
All of our new merch, our Inspired Insights merch will have yippee on it.
Say it again.
Yippee!
Yeah.
We'll have to figure out how you want to spell that and we'll start branding some like
trucker hats and t-shirts.
Trucker hats?
I love a trucker hat.
The high, the high, the height off the forehead.
I love a trucker hat.
You know what?
Good for you.
Is that a no thank you, no trucker hats branded with yippee?
Anything that you want to do, go for it.
You're a full grown adult.
Just know I won't be wearing one.
What would you wear?
A sweatshirt?
A hoodie that says yippee on the back?
Yeah, like a saucy crop top.
No, no, no.
I would totally get you a saucy crop top.
No, I think a hoodie with yippee on it would be cute.
All right.
Good to know.
Welcome back everyone for another episode of the Inspired Insights podcast.
Soren, how is your summer going?
It's going wonderfully.
I got a job.
I've been working in the dish pit.
Yeah.
Getting a rhyme.
This is not your first, I know, I personally know for a fact this is not your first job,
but this seems to be like your first job that you're kind of serious about.
You're getting a lot of hours, you're putting in the time, you're making the bank.
Yeah, I'm putting equivalent hours in, but I'm definitely more invested in this job because
my old job I saw as just a very temporary summer gig.
Yeah.
We will not mention names, but knowing some of the stories both from you and your mom,
it was not an environment that was good for you.
Which actually brings me to my inspired insight of the week.
So my inspired insight of the week is one of my mantras that I have formed over my career
and it essentially goes like this.
You are not going to be able to change the toxic workplace that you're a part of, yet
that toxic workplace is more likely to change you.
I really like that quote and when I thought of it, it made me think of toxic relationships.
We can't change the people that we're in a toxic relationship with, but they will change
us.
I think that that marks, that is very emblematic of the way older people view their jobs.
They're in a relationship with a corporation, whereas I see corporations and serve, or even
companies, as soulless entities that give me a paycheck for X amount of work.
Yeah.
We're going to get into it today.
Today's episode is all about some generational perspectives on work and working.
Tell me what your inspired insight of the week is.
My inspired insight, I yielded from playing a considerable amount of Minecraft.
That is, I love the illusion of progress.
I love to think that I'm doing something when really I'm doing nothing.
Yeah.
Tell me more about that.
Tell me more about that in conjunction with how you, I won't even have you speak for your
generation yet, we'll get there, but about how you view your relationship to work.
My relationship with work, I don't get invested in a venture that I'm gaining finances out
of to some extent.
I see work as a necessary evil rather than something that I am invested in and I gain
some of my personality and identity from.
Whereas I see my parents specifically fall into a toxic relationship with work and it
consumes them and they care so much about the business outcomes.
I feel like it's foolish to care about the business outcomes unless they directly financially
impact you.
In which case, put the minimum amount of effort necessary to succeed.
Now, let me ask you this, is this world according to Sorin or and or do you think you are representing
other Gen Zers?
I think broadly Gen Z gives fewer craps and cares considerably less about the financial
prosperity of the business that they are working for or the quality of their work unless it
impacts their pay.
I think that was one of my questions for you as we were prepping for today's topic.
I want to have this conversation as respectfully as possible.
That's one of my goals going into this conversation because you and I, I think our listeners are
going to learn, you and I think very differently about this topic.
I wonder when you are, what did you call it, in the dish pit?
When you are in the dish pit at 17 years old, for that local establishment, that is a mission
critical job.
So they view that role incredibly important for the workflows of the way that they do
business.
When you're washing dishes for six, eight, ten hours shifts, it can't feel like you are
contributing to the benefits of society.
I understand the utility of my position, but at the same time, like working for a restaurant,
restaurants are non-essential.
They are like frivolous venues.
And I don't want to, with my job, be getting the fulfillment of feeling like I'm contributing
to society.
That's not something that I'm searching for in my job because I feel like that creates
unhealthy relationships with work.
And also, I don't feel like I'm doing anything that important.
Obviously my job completion and efficiency is pertinent to the function of the restaurant,
but I just show up.
I do exemptory work, admittedly, and leave.
And you think this is somewhat common around with people your age?
I think totally.
And I think people my age vilify corporations far more than older people do.
So when working for corporations, at least I myself feel like I'm working for the enemy.
And it's my job to be a saboteur.
You are an incredibly hard worker.
This is not indicative of you doing a poor job.
You are somebody in your workplace.
You are meeting the standard.
Those dishes are clean.
Their infection prevention is well preserved.
Yes.
I deliver, I would say, beyond the standard and are more vigilant because I realize that
people are going to be eating off these things and I need to be very careful about that.
You do a bang up job at a job that you don't necessarily see as defining who you are.
So your parents and I are of similar generations, obviously.
And it's such a fascinating conversation because I knew what I wanted to do.
I didn't know the name for it, but I knew what I wanted to do at a very, I would say, early on.
And it was very common for folks of my generation.
I was asked, what do you want to be when you grow up?
Constantly.
And felt this pressure as young as middle school to start moving my academic career
into a pathway, a gladiator, to get to where I wanted to eventually get.
But I didn't call it social work.
When I was in middle school or high school, I called it psychology.
I wanted to be Jodie Foster in Silence of the Lambs.
I wanted to do that caliber of work.
And then eventually put a name to it and realized I had choices and options of different pathways.
I could get my medical degree.
I could get a master's in this or I could get a master's in that and chose the master's
in social work for me.
But always knew, always knew what I wanted to be doing.
And I am somebody who, I am a workaholic and work defines me.
I admittedly don't have always the best relationship with the workplace.
I am somebody who has absolutely experienced burnout.
I am somebody who absolutely has experienced compassion fatigue, which is a phenomenon
really, I think, prone in helping healthcare service providers.
I don't have the best sense of work-life balance or work-life integration.
So I think you and I are coming to this topic from really diametrically opposed perspectives.
Yeah.
I think somebody that 60, 70, 75 hours a week is very common.
And the look on your face right now is perfect.
It is the perfect meme for this topic.
Yeah.
I think a lot of my perspectives about work-life balance and the way a corporate job is viewed
is informed by my parents' relationship with their works.
I don't want to be that person.
My father is in fairly high level positions and I watch him take home his job.
Well, he works from home, A. And B, he was stressed 24-7 as a result of the company that
he has put so much effort into failing or something of that nature.
And he was tied to the idea of a corporation.
And I feel like corporations are simply stima and empty and hollow.
And tying so much of your emotional state to the function of a company, if it's not
going to directly financially impact you, is absurd.
Well, you drew the parallel, which I think is a really good one, at the start of our
conversation today about toxic workplaces and toxic relationships.
And some of us, and I think your dad is one of those folks, I think I have been one of
these type folks.
I'm learning differently.
But you made the comment about like, I can change them about a toxic relationship.
And so those of us that I think have really, I will just say unhealthy relationships to
the workplace, we think we can fix it.
We think we're the only one that is capable or has the ability to make this place better,
not just for us, but for all the employees scattered across the country.
I don't even understand the want to fix it.
Like that's not, if it's not in your job description, don't have to be doing it.
Jobs are about financial contribution or rather financial incentive rather than personal incentive.
What if you are working at a job and you, because I truly think that I am, I don't love
this word, but I'm going to use it.
I think I am blessed to be able to do a job even for 60, 70 hours a week that I truly
am passionate about.
And it's not the person I'm doing it for.
It's not the corporation that I'm working for.
It's the work that I get to do.
I get to do every single day, I get to do something I'm passionate about.
Now there will always be tasks that I hate doing.
There's always the inboxes to fall, the phone messages to return or too many, the time sheets
to approve.
There's always tasks of the job that I'm going to hate or like less than others.
But at the end of the day, when I am practicing social work, I get to do something I'm passionate
about.
Can you imagine there being a time for you in your future where every day you're punching
into a corporation, but once you're punched in, the work you're doing is work that you
feel so deeply connected to?
I can totally foresee that.
I want to go into bioengineering, specifically genetic engineering, and I think that the
work that can be done in that space is some of the most impactful work that you can do,
period.
And I think I will be connected to the things that I'm creating, especially in academia.
You're to some extent self-reliant and working as a contract worker for a given university
or company or research organization, so on and so forth.
And I can see myself being connected to that work, but at the same time, I will always
have in the back of my mind, it's just a job.
Whereas my father and my mother view jobs as a lifestyle and part of their identity.
One hundred percent I do, and they do.
I think it's important to be fulfilled by your job and pursue a job that is valuable
to you, but also don't allow your job to be the only value in your life, right?
Or trump over other values.
Do you think that's about a personal boundary that your parents and I maybe lack?
I think by the nature of corporations, a corporation runs better when all the employees are all
in and care very deeply about the success of that corporation.
But I think that that is the corporate structure intentionally being optimized to take advantage
of employees through their emotions.
And I think it's exploitative to some extent.
Yes.
I agree with that.
And your parents and I have been very fortunate in our careers to experience significant financial
gain and significant promotion in title and scope and role.
And I would also offer that your parents and I'll even pat myself on the back a little
bit like we're highly capable at the jobs that we work in.
And therefore, we've enjoyed significant reward, both reputation, like I'm somebody that also
works as hard for my reputation as I do my paycheck.
Yeah.
And so I wonder if by definition, corporations are wired this way to exploit high performers.
What is going to happen when millions of Gen Z-ers enter the workplace with this very different
set of boundaries, the ability or the desire to just punch in and punch out, this is just
a job?
If it's not my job description, I'm not doing anything more.
What do you think is going to happen?
I don't know.
I think those people that are willing to get invested and have an unhealthy relationship
with their career will succeed even faster than they were in your generation.
And I think that a lot of other Gen Z-ers will do the work that they're assigned.
They will engage with their job to the extent that is necessary.
And then they'll leave and it will be fine.
Companies will make less profit margin.
I idealistically hope for the day where there will be no companies and instead, I really
like Marx, like classical Marxism as an idea.
I don't think it's functional given humans current neurochemistry.
But if such neurochemistry was altered, it could be highly effective.
Which is the job we're hoping to do some day.
Exactly.
But that's very radical, that gets into the mind.
We're going to get some hate mail.
Most intensive opinions.
Anyway, my predictions is I think corporate workplaces will become less parasitic.
I hope that people will place more emphasis on the value they get from their hobbies and
the other things that they enjoy rather than the value that they get from their workplace.
You travel a lot and you're somebody, you and your family, you travel a lot and you
love experiencing other cultures.
When I hear about some of the advancements that are happening in places in Europe right
now around the four day week, sort of a rejection of this idea of salary and staff, a rejection
of the five day work week, a rejection of the eight to five carve out of the professional
world, like I pine for those days.
So as much as of a workaholic I admit I love the idea of corporate structures changing
to allow for better balance, to allow for time for joy and hobbies and things that tie
with families.
One of your mom and I's very good friends just had her second child not too long ago
but earlier this year and this whole idea of being a working mom in today's corporate
culture is a podcast episode in and of itself.
I don't know if I throw a fuzz somewhere.
I'm not an expert in working moms.
However, as somebody who's been in positions of leadership for most of my social work career,
I am a strong advocate for how do we adjust the workplace to accommodate for more diverse
needs including the needs of working moms.
And it's been a struggle of mine admittedly.
Like when there are pressures north of me on the hierarchical chain of the workplace
to perform harder, to get more done, to increase revenue, to decrease expenses, the biggest
expense to organizations is the staff, is the human resources of that organization.
And so it is really a Herculean task to appease folks north to meet those financial goals
and pressures, especially in a post-COVID economy and address the needs of the folks
south of me who are struggling, who aren't compensated what I think they should be or
could be and who are managing workplace, the needs, yeah, workplace accommodation.
It's not a sustainable environment we have right now to your points around what corporations
expect.
I think a lot of people in my generation as well, looking at CEO pay, looking at the pay
of executives, if like CEO pay fairly regularly is between 10 and 70 times the average pay
of a person on staff.
So by working at that given corporation for the pay that you're working for, all of the
surplus of your work is going directly to a singular individual or a very small group
of individuals.
So I like to think of working for a corporation as not working for the goal statement of the
corporation or the people that the corporation is providing value to, but you're working
for a very small group of elite executives that are taking advantage of your work in
order to enrich themselves.
Like you're feeding the bourgeoisie your effort and seeing very few of the returns.
I think those of us that classify ourselves as workaholics don't necessarily disagree
with anything you're saying.
Like I, again, as somebody who has worked in management and healthcare management for
a long time, yes, the pay gap between the top of the company and the bottom of the company
at just base salary, we're not even talking about both bonus structures and sign-ons and
pay for performance processes here.
It is enough to make you sick to your stomach to see that.
And there's just something about how the generations are wired differently.
I can be both disgusted by it and define myself still by the work I'm doing and want to do
better, want to do more, and want to continue to build my professional brand.
Well, capitalism operates on the same principles that evolution does, and what survives is
what works best.
And now we've reached a point where corporations over generations of corporations have become
optimized to extract the maximum amount of work out of individuals on the bottom for
minimum amount of pay.
And corporate culture has been optimized to do that because it's beneficial for the corporation
itself.
And I think knowing, again, your dad and your mom and I have kind of similar career trajectories
and career stories, at some point, the pellet that comes out of the corporate machine that
we gobble up, at some point we go, wait a second, I don't want that pellet anymore.
I can leverage my talent and passion for other benefits, not necessarily the capitalistic
corporate greed benefit.
And those of us that can do that, I also recognize you and I talk about privilege so much on
this point.
Because it's such an important umbrella overarching a lot of our lived experiences here.
I have the privilege to be able to walk away from corporate structures and become self
employed or change jobs.
I know that the vast majority of American workers don't have that ability to simply
just pack their bag and go home and not show up the next day.
Totally.
But at the same time, we're seeing an increasing amount of benefit from job hopping every few
years for increased pay.
That's right.
It used to be you stay in a job your entire career so that you get pension, but now there's
no pension and there's limited benefits to staying in a specific company.
And I think that is already an impact that we're seeing with people being less emotionally
tied to their company or job.
When you asked looking towards the future, I think that's going to increase in prevalence
and companies are going to need to find a way to decrease turnover.
Some of it is the nature of the work itself.
If I were to social worker and I'm going to use just a silly analogy, if I made cell phone
chips, if my job and my skill and my talent is making cell phone chips, I could pick that
job and talent and take it anywhere.
And so I'm going to choose to work for the corporation that has the benefits that appeal
to me most, whether it's pay, whether it's time off, whether it's work environment, whether
it's shifts or hours, whether it's insurance costs, whatever is most important to me, I
can take that talent and take it anywhere.
For some of us, we work in a field where it's less tangible, like the product that we're
churning out isn't as tangible as like a cell phone chip.
And so it's harder to measure how we can take those jobs, take out our talents and move
it around to the place that fits us best.
And I think overall people are frustrated, they're angry, and they think that the system
as it is right now is no longer beneficial to the vast majority of the individuals that
engage with you.
And I think what I know, and you I know actually know more about this than I do, in the history
of our country, we have seen this kind of roller coaster of the people's movement and
change happens.
And so a lot of what we see in today's modern society is the result of movements from generations
and generations past.
And perhaps to your point, we are seeing the beginnings of a new movement of younger people
kind of putting fist to table and saying, this isn't going to work for us.
In the late 1800s of the US, the vast majority of the economy was controlled by very few
monopolies.
And they essentially oppressed the workforce so that people were financially drowning
while a small class of aristocrats was becoming obscenely wealthy.
We think about families like the Rockefellers and financial organizations like JP Morgan,
stuff like that, like Standard Oil, so on and so forth.
And then all of, I like to think of it as an economic reset that happened over a number
of decades, starting with Teddy Roosevelt coming into office after I believe Garfield
was assassinated.
And he did a good bit of trust busting.
And then his economic momentum was continued by FDR.
And we saw a capitalist reset in the US because it was no longer functional for workers.
And that bred a, along with World War II, bred a massive amount of prosperity for the
US.
And now we've started to see our economy go back into a monopolization phase where workers
are being oppressed regularly.
Obviously, now it's more corporate oligarchies because we still do have a considerable amount
of antitrust law.
But I was talking at a CISV camp the other day with a guy that worked, or that works
as a lawyer for a trust fund, or hedge fund rather.
And he was saying that the FCC is scared to regulate large tech companies because they
have less power than them.
And we need to create change.
Yeah, and I think she, with the lesson I'm gathering from this history lesson, is that
a change comes from the people from the ground forward.
I think we are at the precipice of more change.
I think today's episode has been a really great discussion on how the generational,
the different voices of our generations can come together.
And I hope, I hope bring some change.
I think millions of lives depend on it.
And I'm tired.
I'd like to just rest a little bit more, right?
And I realize I'm responsible.
I'm responsible for my own relationship in the workplace.
Soren, this has been a fascinating conversation.
You know a lot about this stuff.
I really like the idea of extreme economic reform, and I read into it a considerable
amount.
With that said, I'm no economist.
Yeah, well, we'd love to hear from our listeners too.
So yeah, please feel free to reach out.
You can reach Soren and I at inspiredinsights at inspiredcg.com.
Until next time, I'm Chris LaValle.
I'm Soren Peterson.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you so much.
See you next week.
Inspired Insights podcast has been brought to you by Inspired Consulting Group, LLC.
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