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Soren, welcome back!

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Great to be here.

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We're here again!

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Yes, and today we're going to be discussing criticism.

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Yeah, it's a topic that you and I have talked about before a couple times, and it's a topic

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I've been talking with a lot of my adult colleagues and friends about it as well.

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Yeah, I mean, I feel like criticism, the routes through with which you can receive it have

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increased considerably across the last several years.

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So obviously, criticism is increasing.

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Yeah, you're thinking like with social media.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And I think social media to some extent encourages criticism by its nature.

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The algorithm wants you to be angry because then you'll continue engaging with the platform,

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right?

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It increases viewer retention.

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Yeah, and criticism is an interesting term because I think some of what we're talking

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about...

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So here's my bias.

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When I think of criticism as a social worker, as somebody who has supervised students and

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employees most of my professional career, I think of criticism in a similar way that

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I think about feedback.

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Criticism is feedback.

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And for me, criticism feedback is intended to help somebody shape performance, make adjustments,

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and it's intended to improve, right?

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For me, criticism, constructive feedback, I know criticism has kind of a negative connotation

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to it for sure.

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But for the purposes of this conversation, we're kind of lumping this together.

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Criticism, constructive feedback, all intended to shape and improve performance.

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Yes.

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Then we have this other bucket, which I tend to see more often on social media to your

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point, where people are just spewing behind the protection of their accounts, whether

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they're real or not, behind their keyboards.

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And I don't necessarily think that kind of engagement is intended to be constructive

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or to shape or mold performance.

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Would you agree?

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Ah, like it is all about intentionality.

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I feel like a lot of the criticism that we see on online spaces is very hate motivated.

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And it's not, like the internet is not a forum where people regulate their emotions very

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effectively, nor are they incentivized to regulate their emotions very effectively.

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So it sort of festers and can become something very negative.

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But I do think in online forums, when people are spewing hate, it is indicative of an emotion

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that they're feeling, whether that's like irrational or not.

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Well, I guess we can tell.

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But yeah, yeah, there's some signs.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But I think like there is still something that can be yielded from hate.

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Obviously, it's very, it's not productive to allow it to affect you emotionally.

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But like, if people are angry, then you must be doing something that is counter to their

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worldview.

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Yeah, it's triggering something.

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Yeah, yeah, it's triggering something.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's something that you and I as queer individuals have needed to navigate.

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It's something that you as a student, as a child, with parents, as somebody who swam

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competitively, you've had coaches work with you.

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I mean, you, you, you live a life that you have the whole continuum of feedback, right?

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Of criticism, constructive feedback.

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And you and I, one of our similarities is that we live a life that, let's be real, just

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the fact that an adult gay man and a queer adolescent are sitting together having conversations

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in a podcast studio and putting it out to the worldwide webs is going to draw attention.

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Yeah.

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And our five listeners are going to probably see some negative comments on our social media

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connected to inspired insights on personal attacks, email, it's going to happen.

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And you and I have experienced this in our lives before.

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Yeah.

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I think some of the problem that I face when interacting with criticism is like throughout

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my entire childhood, my family always engaged in like constructive criticism.

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We were very blunt with each other.

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We want each other to improve.

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And through that we would critique.

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And I never saw that as a negative thing.

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And I always have worked hard to implement what I'm being like critiqued on and better

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myself.

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Is that because just to, let me pause you for a second.

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It never bothered you.

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Is that because you knew instinctually the spirit by which it like a hundred percent

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coming in today into the studio, your mom had packed you some clothes, brought you a

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toothbrush, told you to wet your hair, told you to put on a sweater.

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Like you were getting some constructive feedback up until the moment we record today.

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But watching those interactions with your mom, none of it looked adversarial.

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You didn't look annoyed.

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Like when I was a kid, I was annoyed as my mom was like, did you brush your teeth?

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I was annoyed.

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I know that I'm a hot mess.

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So you welcome that.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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Without my mother managing me, where would I be?

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Where would I be?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And that presents a problem when I'm interacting with like very negative criticism, borrowing

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on hate, because I want to implement it, right?

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Like I have been conditioned to see criticism as a good thing and something that should

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be applied.

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So like this was a problem that I faced a lot in middle school because I was, I would

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say ruthlessly bullied to some extent by a large portion of my friend group and a lot

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of people that I interacted with on the football team.

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And I would see their like critiques about who I was as like, obviously I knew that there

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was hate behind it, but also like I just was trained to view criticism as trying to better

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myself.

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Yeah.

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So then I would interact with it in the same way that I interact with like my mom telling

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me that my hair looks like crap.

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Yeah.

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Oh, yeah.

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So I would recognize some of that and perhaps tell me if I'm off base here, perhaps it's,

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well, geez, maybe I should tone this down.

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Maybe I shouldn't dress like this.

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Maybe I shouldn't talk like this.

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Well, a hundred percent.

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Like in my early middle school career, I was like, I was me, I was flaming.

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I was, I was out there.

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And then as I started to get like critiques about it, I did tone it down a lot.

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And now in school, whether that be from like apathy or like self-consciousness, I just

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wear very bland clothes for the most part.

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And my entire like depressive era, I would just wear sweatpants and sweatshirt every

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single day.

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And I do think that me internalizing that criticism and like taking it in as though

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it was constructive when really it was just mindless hate has significantly impacted the

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way that I express myself and present myself like publicly today.

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And you earlier were talking about how we need to differentiate the two.

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But I think like obviously there's something that can be yielded from everybody's opinion

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and we should listen to what everybody has to say.

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But I don't know.

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It's difficult because I think that blind hate, obviously it's coming from a place.

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You can learn something from someone being hateful towards you.

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Like I think a lot of the hate that I received in middle school was directly from the insecurities

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of the men that were bullying me.

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Because like in my friend group, we were fairly flamboyant until like all of my friends weren't

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and I was left sitting there.

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Not quite flamboyant.

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And I was ridiculed to some extent for that.

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Yeah, because you were different.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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You know, early on in our adventures here in the Inspired Insight podcast, we talked

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about shine and we talked about sometimes we are our own biggest bullies and we dull

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our shine.

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Sometimes we let the world around us dull our shine.

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And so much of what you're talking about, I think is a combination of the shine that

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you had, the dulling of that shine.

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And here you are three, four years later, still not sure where that shine is.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I agree with that.

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Like I think I attempted to remove a part of myself and like in a time where it like

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the mind is very dynamic and very adaptable in that time period.

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And I think to some extent, I've lost it entirely.

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Honestly, I still am quite out there, but not nearly to the extent that I was.

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And I like, I don't know, I spend a lot of time struggling with that because I'm like,

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have I allowed the people who ridiculed me to succeed in their task?

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Did they win?

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Yeah, yeah.

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And then part of it is like, perhaps I just dulled with time, right?

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Right.

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And like...

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That would have happened anyway.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And I think it's very difficult to weigh the impact of different things.

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Yeah, maybe there's chicken and egg there and maybe some of it was how we redefine ourselves

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as adolescents and the way year after year, like going into your senior year of high school

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next year, who you'll be next year might look different than who you are today.

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And that's what's cool about evolving.

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And here's our sign, the best is yet to come.

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For folks that are listening, we had a glow up part two in celebration of Pride Month.

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Happy Pride by the way, Swann.

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The best is yet to come.

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And so I just personally believe that who I am tomorrow is going to be different than

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who I am today.

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And that might be for the better or the worse.

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But I want to go back to something you said about what we can yield from even the blind

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heat.

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Yeah.

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For me, as I look down at 50 years old on this planet, here's what I have learned from

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that blind heat.

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There's no place in my life anymore.

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Yeah.

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I, when met with that level of animosity, who I am as a person, as a social worker,

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as a gay man, as a business owner, my brand is very important to me.

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And I am not the kind of person who goes nose to nose, toe to toe with haters, whether it's

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in person or whether it's through our keyboards on Facebook or other internet things.

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That's not my brand.

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What I've learned about myself is that when I react to criticism in a way that's not authentic

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to my brand, I fall flat on my face every time.

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When I have let the anger, the temptation, the just being pissed off at that person who's

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coming at me.

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When I let them get me to the place where I respond and it's not authentic to my brand,

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I instantly regret it.

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Instantly regret it.

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And so I think for me, what's important, what's been important for me is to separate what

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criticism is intended to do me well, to help me improve who I am, to help me evolve.

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Like your mom telling you to wet your hair and brush your teeth, to help you evolve.

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And then what criticism, the only purpose it serves is to shame and stigmatize and further

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oppress me.

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And that's the stuff I don't got room for in my life anymore.

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I think that hate is inflammatory and infectious as an emotion.

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It's very negative and yet it spreads so rapidly.

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Yeah.

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Well, you and I know this.

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We've talked about this before.

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Hate anger, being pissed off is an easier emotion than feeling guilt.

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Yeah.

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Than feeling embarrassment, than feeling sad.

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Yeah.

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Or anxious.

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It is easier to get in touch with hate and anger than it is some of those other emotions.

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And I think that hate is sort of unique among emotions with how rapidly and entirely it

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removes you from your rationality.

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I think sadness equally intense, but it doesn't rob you of your ability to use logic to the

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same extent that hate does.

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I feel.

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I think you're spotting it.

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Hate is a blinding force.

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From the deliverer to the receiver.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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100%.

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Yeah.

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And you mentioned toe to toe.

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And I think that that is the way that a lot of people react to hate.

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But when I hear hate or see hate, I don't want to go toe to toe.

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I want to sit down and listen.

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Right?

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Interesting.

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I don't feel like I'm interested in clapping back necessarily as listening to them.

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Because even when someone's saying something absurd, you can learn a lot about them through

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what they're saying.

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Like I don't know.

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I just like sitting down and listening to what people are saying.

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Because even if it's awful and it's meant to hurt me, I don't, I feel like I am not

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really emotionally impacted by people attempting to do that.

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Because your behavior and your words is not a reflection of me.

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It's a reflection of you.

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So isn't that so hard to stay?

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You impressed me every time we talk.

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You know that this conversation.

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I'm like blown away by you.

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It's so hard.

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It's so hard to stay in that place of I know this isn't about me.

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You're saying more about yourself than you are me.

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Yeah.

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My, I think because as we've talked about our experiences through school were so different,

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I too was the victim, I guess for lack of a better word, of bullying my entire elementary

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school, middle school and early high school.

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00:16:29,580 --> 00:16:31,640
Something switched to like junior year-ish.

247
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,820
Maybe it was maturity maybe for all of us.

248
00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:46,880
And so when I hear criticism that has that spirit of hate and contempt behind it, my

249
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,880
inclination is to shield it away from me.

250
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:56,440
And like I wish I had the bigger Wonder Woman bracelets to be able to deflect and go, yeah,

251
00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,040
let's talk about this.

252
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:07,160
The trauma response that kicks up for me is off like I totally agree with you.

253
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:08,980
I was going to parallel that.

254
00:17:08,980 --> 00:17:13,980
I feel like both of us when we receive criticism of that nature, it puts us back in the same

255
00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:18,200
place that we were like ridiculed in our early youth, right?

256
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,200
The trauma response.

257
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,440
Yeah, exactly.

258
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:28,800
And my reaction then was always to fight and to go toe to toe and never did it end positively

259
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:29,800
for me.

260
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:30,800
Because it's not your brand.

261
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:31,800
Yeah.

262
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,440
It's not authentic to who you are.

263
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,680
And I think that we have two different reactions to that.

264
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,800
You choose to ignore it, which I think is a fantastic strategy, especially in like the

265
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,680
situation, like on the school board, you just can't interact with that in a positive fashion

266
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:47,680
in a forum.

267
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:48,680
Right.

268
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,920
There's no positive anything that's going to come from it.

269
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,320
Because engaging with it legitimizes it in situations like that.

270
00:17:54,320 --> 00:18:00,280
So I think that your strategy of just entirely ignoring it is fantastic in that context.

271
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:07,480
But like, when I look back, I was like, man, if I had just sat there and listened to them

272
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:15,480
and had been like, well, they were like shitting on me ruthlessly, then like, really?

273
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:16,480
You know what?

274
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:17,640
I'll think about that.

275
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,800
They would have calmed down so quickly and been like, man, I don't really mean that.

276
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,320
But instead I would go and I'd agitate them because it spread to me.

277
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:33,080
And I like, and then it would just end with me getting ganged up on because I was a sole

278
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,440
individual and then I was getting like feisty.

279
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,360
And also, like I was giving them the reaction that they wanted.

280
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,360
Yeah.

281
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:41,360
Which is so cliche, right?

282
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:43,200
You hear this all the time.

283
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,640
As a former school social worker and someone who works today with a lot of schools, you

284
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,320
know, that's one of the, you know, don't give them the attention they're looking for.

285
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:52,320
Yeah.

286
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:53,320
It's so freaking hard.

287
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:54,320
It's very difficult.

288
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:55,320
It's hard.

289
00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:03,600
You know, I think I want to, I also want to just say that ignoring for me is a part of

290
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,080
the strategy.

291
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:11,840
My favorite clap back is to shine even brighter.

292
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:12,840
Yeah.

293
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:19,000
You know, my favorite clap back is when it feels like there are people attacking and

294
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,560
coming after me.

295
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:27,400
My brand, my legacy is far more important down the road.

296
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,080
The best is yet to come.

297
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,640
It's far more important what's ahead than what's now.

298
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:39,680
And so for me, and I want to thank my girl, Taylor Swift, for some of this.

299
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:46,160
Taylor Swift has the best clap backs across her entire career.

300
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,640
When she's criticized, she makes a bigger album.

301
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,560
When she's accused of not writing or singing her own songs, she writes and sings the next

302
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,280
album completely by herself.

303
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:05,320
You know, she plants these subtle, well, some subtle, some not so subtle.

304
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:12,720
She plants stuff within her lyrics that only that person and she initially might know.

305
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,400
And so it brings me, our friend Elizabeth, who was just here with us today, taking a

306
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:23,220
few shots in the studio with us, introduced me to this idea of tall poppy syndrome a couple

307
00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:28,960
months ago and offering me some support around the school board stuff and everything that

308
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,360
was going on professionally for me.

309
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:35,400
And I have gone all the way down that rabbit hole.

310
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,400
I love it.

311
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:47,240
I love this idea that it is human nature to cut down that which is taller, shinier, brighter.

312
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:55,200
The taller poppies in the field were the ones that were directed to be cut down because

313
00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:02,200
you don't want people to think that it's good to grow beyond your means.

314
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,200
Yeah.

315
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,040
You know, stay humble.

316
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,400
This whole idea of tall poppying, cutting the tall poppies in the field acts as a social

317
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,200
leveling system.

318
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:17,240
We don't want anybody to think that they're better than anybody else.

319
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:25,800
And so for me, Soren, my new approach to that hate, not constructive criticism where it's

320
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:32,280
a dialogue, but that hateful spewing of this is who you are and I can't stand you just

321
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,080
because of who you are and who you love and what you represent, all of that stuff.

322
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,800
It's not to clap back.

323
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,440
It's not going toe to toe.

324
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,520
It's to continue to grow.

325
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:43,520
Yeah.

326
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:51,640
And in full transparency, and you know this, your mom knows this, part of the getting this

327
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,680
podcast off the ground, we had been talking about it for a long time, but part of getting

328
00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:02,920
this podcast finally off the ground was my desire to grow a little taller in that field

329
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,040
of poppies.

330
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:09,440
I feel like that's such an elegant way to respond to negative commentary as well.

331
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:14,880
Like, it's not ignoring, but it is fighting in your own way.

332
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:20,680
It's continuing to win the battle of life rather than picking a battle with someone

333
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,680
else, right?

334
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:22,680
Yeah.

335
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,280
Well, and I know you roll my eyes every time I bring up a girl here, but you know, on her

336
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,000
newest album, Taylor released a song called Thank You Amy.

337
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:37,160
And for those that aren't familiar with it, in the title of the song, the K and thank

338
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:43,000
and the I and the M and Amy spelled A-I-M-E-E are capitalized.

339
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,960
So the word Kim is there.

340
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,800
So if folks know anything about Taylor, you might know the Kim and Kanye and Taylor beef.

341
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,200
I'm not going to get into it here.

342
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:57,480
And in that song, Thank You Amy, there's a lyric that says, I built a legacy that you

343
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:04,400
can't undo, but when I count the scars, there's a moment of truth that there wouldn't be this

344
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,280
if there hadn't been you.

345
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,280
Yeah.

346
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,840
And for me, that resonates to my soul.

347
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,440
I would not be the human I am today, right, wrong or indifferent, depends on who you ask.

348
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,800
I would not be the human I am today if I didn't have the school experience I had, if I didn't

349
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:28,680
have the school board experience that I've had most recently, or I didn't have periods

350
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:36,520
in my life where people have come at me swinging for no other reason than who I am or what

351
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,080
I represent.

352
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:43,600
And as I'm talking this out loud, I'm going back in my mind to what you said earlier about

353
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,400
there's something to be yielded, that kind of hate.

354
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:56,080
And maybe what I'm yielding by listening to that is not how I dull my shine.

355
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,920
It's not how I change who I am.

356
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:06,680
It's how I grow even taller, how I evolve my poppydum to get even bigger, cast a bigger

357
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,680
shadow and continue to work on the legacy.

358
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,360
I totally agree.

359
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,880
With the greatest adversity comes the greatest change.

360
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,480
I don't think that I...

361
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,640
Obviously it was quite damaging for me.

362
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:27,880
However, if I hadn't had that time period of adversity, I think I would still be a little

363
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,160
know-it-all shit.

364
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,160
Yeah.

365
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,680
Yeah, I'm agreeing with you.

366
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,880
With very little maturity.

367
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:46,840
I think I was very privileged in my youth and that resulted in an extreme lack of charisma.

368
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:54,760
And through experiencing adversity, I've gained so much more empathy for others' emotions.

369
00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:04,440
And I've experienced a depth and breadth of emotion that I think requires years of regular

370
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,920
civilian life to acquire.

371
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,560
And I've matured quite quickly as a result of that.

372
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:10,560
You've had two.

373
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,560
We talked about that.

374
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:17,160
We talked about the experiences you had when you were in crisis on our last podcast episode.

375
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,080
You've had two.

376
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,080
And I think about...

377
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,800
I just want you to sit with this for a second.

378
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:28,560
The truth of the matter might be you and I would not be sitting here talking about the

379
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:35,480
topics we're talking about if we didn't face the adversity we had faced.

380
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:36,480
100%.

381
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,480
100%.

382
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:44,600
I just think for me, as a social worker, as a clinician, there's this whole concept of

383
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:56,240
post-traumatic growth where it's the process of going through hard times that we discover

384
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:04,920
unique, new skills, qualities, depths of ourselves that we wouldn't be the person we are today

385
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,600
if we didn't experience the loss or the traumatic event.

386
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,680
It's fascinating.

387
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,160
I totally agree.

388
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:19,640
And I think that that mindset is something that really allowed me to recover very quickly.

389
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:28,280
I changed from seeing hardship as an irretrievable attack upon myself, like losing a piece of

390
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:37,920
myself with each difficulty into the mindset of gaining a piece of myself with every difficulty.

391
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,040
Hardship was no longer adversity.

392
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,040
It was opportunity.

393
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,040
Right?

394
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,360
There's something so beautiful about that.

395
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:52,600
And I know I don't want to speak for you, but for me, when I'm sitting in that adversity,

396
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,960
when I'm sitting reading the comments about me, seeing the videos that have been posted

397
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:07,120
online about me, reading the comments to the news story about me, or hearing what townspeople

398
00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:13,680
or others are saying in public forums about me, when in that moment, the furthest thing

399
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,120
from my mind is, oh, this is making me a stronger person.

400
00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:20,000
Oh, this is helping me grow.

401
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,000
Right?

402
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:27,800
Because in my mind, I go back to being eight years old or 14 years old or 24 years old.

403
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,600
22 years old.

404
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,480
And in my mind, I'm back there.

405
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,160
And that's trauma.

406
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:40,480
We know, you and I know that that is the trauma response and the ability to grow taller doesn't

407
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,800
happen until a little bit later.

408
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:49,200
Well, I think you can only grow by using hindsight.

409
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,400
In the moment, it feels like you're being cut.

410
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,400
Right?

411
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,400
Yeah.

412
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:55,400
Deep.

413
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,000
It's so challenging to overcome.

414
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:08,000
But I now have adapted to where whenever I'm faced with a difficult emotional situation,

415
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:15,880
I try to because I used to react extremely emotionally very quickly.

416
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:21,040
It wouldn't be necessarily super visible emotion, but I would immediately start internally spiraling.

417
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,040
It was there.

418
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:23,040
Yeah.

419
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,040
It was there.

420
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,480
I would then engage in super risky behaviors just because I was hurting.

421
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,480
I wouldn't know what to do.

422
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,880
I would revert to a very childish state of scared running.

423
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,440
It's regression.

424
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:44,840
But now I think through my recovery, I've adapted the scale of the second I'm faced

425
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,240
with a negative hardship.

426
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:54,960
Yes, I feel the pain of it, but I immediately attempt to roll back and gather hindsight

427
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,080
as quickly as possible.

428
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,880
So that you can then get to the place where you can learn from it.

429
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:08,000
I try to tamper my emotion so that I can engage with rationality.

430
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,320
And then once I've come to terms with something, then I can experience the emotion so that

431
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,080
I can get the whole experience and yield everything that I can.

432
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:23,120
Obviously, I'm not ignoring the negative emotional experience, but I am very quickly transitioning

433
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,720
to rationality so it doesn't lead me into a spiral.

434
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,160
I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit because I think maybe for some of our

435
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:36,640
listeners, whether they are 17 or 70, they might be sitting there going, yeah, that all

436
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,440
sounds great, you two.

437
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:39,440
How?

438
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:40,440
Yeah.

439
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:50,360
So I'm curious if you have a sense of now, today, what skills you go through to get yourself

440
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,520
to that place of hindsight so that the best learning is there.

441
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:56,520
Yeah.

442
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,920
So I don't know.

443
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:10,120
The other day, me and my friends after ushering for Penobscot Theatre went to Walmart.

444
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:18,640
And we were shouted at by two gentlemen in a pickup truck with a variety of slurs and

445
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,900
such.

446
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:27,400
And my friend was very shocked and started crying from that.

447
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:34,200
And I gave the two gentlemen a quick twerk because I thought that they would enjoy it.

448
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:42,960
And my immediate reaction internally was shocked and it brought me back to the locker room

449
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,840
where I was having the F slur yelled at me.

450
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,200
And I started crawling into myself.

451
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:57,300
And then my brain recognizes the patterns that I start going into.

452
00:30:57,300 --> 00:31:03,780
So I think my main strategy is get an understanding of the patterns emotionally that you go through

453
00:31:03,780 --> 00:31:07,240
whenever you start to spiral or react negatively.

454
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:08,240
Start being...

455
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:09,240
Yeah.

456
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:10,240
Embrace mindfulness.

457
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,560
Be very mindful of the way that you're thinking.

458
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:20,200
And by the time we had entered the Walmart, I was then in a quite rational spot because

459
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:27,400
my initial reaction was to laugh and shove it off my back, whatever.

460
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,200
But I couldn't do that to some extent.

461
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,000
And I needed to process through it.

462
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,040
And I was quite scared in the moment.

463
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:45,360
And then I just very quickly transitioned to a rational state by seeing that I was scared.

464
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,840
I was like, okay, I'm scared.

465
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,960
What do I do now?

466
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,420
It takes a lot, a lot, a lot of practice.

467
00:31:53,420 --> 00:32:02,480
And I had to be very mindful and think about it a lot over months, years in order to adapt

468
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,840
this because I always used to just immediately go into the fight or flight response.

469
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:09,840
Yeah, trauma.

470
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:10,840
Yeah.

471
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,960
And I would be curled in a ball crying.

472
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:20,360
But it really is just about effort, practice, and mindfulness.

473
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:21,540
And you will get there.

474
00:32:21,540 --> 00:32:26,600
It's very difficult at first, but you will get there if you put in the effort.

475
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:34,400
And what I love about what you're saying is the ability to be in touch with, yeah, I'm

476
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,400
scared right now.

477
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,400
Yeah.

478
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,040
Or, yeah, I'm feeling threatened.

479
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,520
Or, yep, I've just been traumatized.

480
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:48,240
Or I'm triggered and going back to other traumatic events in my life.

481
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,520
And so I think that mindfulness is such an important skill.

482
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:58,400
Sometimes I think people hear the word mindful and they think they have to do yoga or Pilates

483
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,420
or do this guided meditation to get there.

484
00:33:01,420 --> 00:33:08,800
And mindfulness is as simple as just being still and just saying, okay, what do I feel?

485
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:09,800
What do I smell?

486
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:10,800
Yeah.

487
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,800
What do I taste?

488
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:12,800
What do I touch?

489
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,800
What do I see?

490
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:14,800
What do I hear?

491
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,520
And if you're not going through those senses, you can achieve a state of mindfulness.

492
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:24,320
But what you're also saying, Soren, is you've got to be honest with yourself and not run

493
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,240
from the stigma of saying, I'm scared.

494
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:34,640
When people think, react calmly to a difficult situation, they think, oh, you just ignore

495
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:35,640
it.

496
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,700
No, you need to acknowledge it so then you can move past it.

497
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:43,800
Because by ignoring it, you're putting it in front of you.

498
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,600
You're kicking the can down the road.

499
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,840
Whereas by acknowledging it, you can allow it to pass through you.

500
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:57,720
And that's very difficult because I think, especially men, do not want to be permeable

501
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,380
to their emotions.

502
00:33:59,380 --> 00:34:03,520
They do not want to allow it to seep in.

503
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,040
They kick the can down the road and eventually they're rolling a snowball that will crush

504
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,600
them in front of them.

505
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,600
Getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

506
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,120
Yeah, so I mean, as always, you're so insightful about this.

507
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:23,280
Just attending to it in the moment prevents it perhaps of getting even more unmanageable

508
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,080
down the road.

509
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:33,780
As we wrap up this conversation, which I have loved, there's another philosophy that's been

510
00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:37,360
getting a lot of social media time going around.

511
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,320
I see it on many posts.

512
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,760
I'm seeing a lot of folks tattooing this.

513
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,520
If I were more of a tattoo person, I'd be like, I might consider something like this.

514
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:48,720
But maybe you've seen this too.

515
00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:51,760
It's the whole let them philosophy.

516
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,160
Mel Robbins and her podcast has talked a lot about let them.

517
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,580
And it goes something like this.

518
00:34:57,580 --> 00:35:02,200
If they want to criticize you, if they want to attack you, if they want to diminish you,

519
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,560
if they want to dull your shine, let them.

520
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:11,920
Because where you put your energy into the response is more important than where they

521
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,320
are putting their energy into the attack.

522
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,360
And so let them is all about boundaries.

523
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:23,320
It's all about being able to recognize what you need in that moment to better yourself,

524
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:30,960
to heal, and to recognize that our best selves are still ahead.

525
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,200
The best is yet to come.

526
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:40,120
And if we can stay focused on what you're talking about of just knowing thyself and

527
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:46,160
attending to our growth and evolution and not letting the bullies, because let's be

528
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,680
honest, that's what they are, whether they're eight years old or 80 years old, that's what

529
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,480
they are as bullies.

530
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,800
Not letting the bullies cut us in our field of poppies.

531
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,360
Let them try and let them watch us grow.

532
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:02,360
Yeah.

533
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,120
Great point to end off the episode.

534
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,120
Dang.

535
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:15,000
Well, this has been another really, for me, helpful conversation with you, Soren.

536
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,320
This has been Inspired Insights Podcast.

537
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,240
Stick around for our next episode.

538
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:21,720
And I'm Chris McClellan.

539
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:23,080
I'm Soren Pedersen.

540
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,080
Thanks for listening in.

541
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:25,080
Bye.

542
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,080
Bye, y'all.

543
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:31,560
The Inspired Insights Podcast has been brought to you by Inspired Consulting Group, LLC,

544
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,240
created and produced by Amanda Seidel.

545
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,240
Music by Eric Herter.

546
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:38,640
Copyright 2024.

547
00:36:38,640 --> 00:37:01,880
All rights reserved.