1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:22,880 Soren, welcome back! I feel like it's been a half minute since we've been in this studio. 2 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,600 Uh, yeah, it's been a second, but for the audience it will have been a week. 3 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:35,760 But in that week, we've had a little bit of a glow up. We've got some new signage, 4 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,400 we've got some table decorations. Compliments to Chris, our designer. 5 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:46,400 Well, I dare say, yeah, I'll take it. I'll take it. Working on accepting compliments. 6 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,480 Thanks, Soren. Yep, it's our pride-themed succulent pot. 7 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,200 It's modern art. It's modern art. 8 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,600 Yeah. And not so modern art, but I just think it's fun. 9 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:03,200 Yeah, I think that it invokes emotion. Thusly, it is also art. 10 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,680 I agree. I agree. How you been? 11 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:12,640 Me? Well, I've been swell. We just had AP tests, so that's kind of what's going on in my life. 12 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,160 But, no, I think I've been doing wonderfully. How about you? 13 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:23,200 I'm good. It feels like spring has been very busy, but I am absolutely looking forward to 14 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,360 summer. You must be too. Oh, I was just talking to my mom earlier. 15 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:34,800 I'm so excited for summer. I've been, like, hiking pretty much every day trying to in there, 16 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,760 or like at least getting some exercise. And I'm gearing up for, like, summer. I'm so excited. 17 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:45,520 Actually, I considered about, like, applying for a trail maintenance job at Acadia National Park. 18 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,800 That would be right up your alley. I would love that. But also, it's an hour drive 19 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,160 and, like, 40-hour work weeks. So I don't know if that's, like, feasible. 20 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:59,920 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For our listeners outside of maybe the main area, Acadia National Park is 21 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,440 Mount Desert Island, Far Harbor. And it's probably one of the spots. When I talk to friends who don't 22 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,920 live in Maine, they've all heard of Far Harbor or Acadia National Park. It's beautiful. 23 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:13,680 It's the second most visited national park in the nation, I believe. Yeah, yeah. 24 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,960 I believe it, actually. It's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. 25 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:24,000 And here's what I know about you. You take energy from being outside, being in nature, 26 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:30,640 being physically active. Well, I feel like, I don't know, that's like a pillar of my existence. I think, 27 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:39,680 like, movement and the outdoors. Yeah. I think it's such a rewarding experience to be out there. 28 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Yeah. And it's really beautiful. And it fills your cup. Yeah, yeah. 100%. 29 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaking of other things that might fill your cup. Yeah. Today's topic, queer media. 30 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:57,600 Yeah. I'm excited about that. Yeah. I think that it's a super interesting topic because I feel like 31 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:03,760 we have quite different perspectives on it, right? Yeah, we do. Yeah, yeah. We do. We've talked about 32 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:12,720 this already a little bit in warming up today. Yeah. So let's get into it. Yeah. So for our 33 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:20,000 listeners who might not be as familiar with just sort of the more robust way that we're using the 34 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:26,240 term media, for the purposes of this conversation, when we say media, we're talking about all of it. 35 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:35,840 We're talking about music, TV, movies. We're talking about magazines and books and even 36 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,240 TikTok. Yeah, yeah. Social media platforms. Yeah, social media. Thank you. I was struggling. 37 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:49,120 Really, like any content that an individual might engage with, which is like a very broad category. 38 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:55,120 But I think, like, our media defines so much of our cultural outlook. Absolutely. And can be so, 39 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:01,200 like, pivotal to individuals like experience and the way they view the world. Yeah. So it really, 40 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,880 although it may seem like frivolous media, it is super important to the human experience, 41 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:13,440 at least in the modern world. 100%. And I think what makes this conversation so exciting for me 42 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:18,400 and interesting for me is there's a little bit of a chicken and egg thing. When I talk about 43 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:28,080 the role of media is does media shape us? Or do we shape the media? And maybe there's some relationship 44 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,760 that goes back and forth. And it's kind of the snake eating tail kind of image for me. But what 45 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:41,440 I think about when I think about the role of media in influencing and reflecting queer culture, 46 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:48,080 I think about how much has changed. And for somebody from my generation, sadly, how much 47 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:55,360 still remains the same. Yeah. Well, like, the interesting thing about how queer people have 48 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:03,440 been represented in media is like decades ago, the vast majority of queer representations were 49 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:13,120 negative and or non existent. And now we have, like such a wide variety of content that is 50 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:19,680 positively catered towards queer people. But we also do still have a lot of stigmatized media. 51 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:27,600 And I think that like the media of the past has impacted, like, older generations and their image 52 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,080 of queer people considerably. Like you were talking about Silence of the Lambs earlier, actually. 53 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:41,760 Yeah. Yeah. So in some of my DEI and B training, I talk a lot about the role of media, not just on 54 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:49,040 LGBTQ plus identities, but really on shaping either reinforcing stereotypes, shaping maybe 55 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:54,000 unconscious bias of how we think about communities that we don't necessarily have lived experience 56 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:02,080 with or a lot of interactions with. And so when I think about growing up in the 80s and early 90s, 57 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:12,720 and I think about what was available for queer role models on TV, there are absolutely, well, 58 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:20,720 let me say it a different way. I can think of more negative depictions of LGBTQ plus identities in 59 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:27,200 media than I can positive. And I think that's the difference you were talking about in modern media 60 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:35,040 is in modern media, we now can identify more queer positive storylines and characters than what I 61 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,960 remember growing up with. And so to your point, The Silence of the Lambs, which was a movie that 62 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:46,720 absolutely pointed me in the direction professionally of behavioral health, mental health. 63 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:53,840 I watched The Silence of the Lambs when I was in high school. And I said, that's what I want to do. 64 00:06:54,320 --> 00:07:03,840 I want to be Jodie Foster. I want to dig into the mind of folks who are not well, 65 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:12,080 and figure out what makes them tick. Like it was fascinating to me what she did in that as a 66 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:17,600 character of that movie. And I remember reading books by the author of The Silence of the Lambs 67 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,800 back then as well. And what some folks might not even know is the character of Hannibal Lecter 68 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:28,400 shows up in several other books, which some have been made movies and some have not been made into 69 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:35,040 movies, but the movie Red Dragon, the movie Hannibal, there's now a TV, a recent TV series 70 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:42,400 based on the Hannibal Lecter character. So very like from a pop cultural phenomenon, 71 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:54,320 Thomas Hardy's works books have been absolutely. And what folks also remember about the movie The 72 00:07:54,320 --> 00:08:02,960 Silence of the Lambs is the put the lotion in the basket character. And when I think back of 73 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:12,240 watching that movie, I remember wanting to be Jodie Foster. And I remember being terrified 74 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:20,080 of this person who was impersonating a woman, you know, in my formulated mind, the whole concept of 75 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:26,480 transgender identities was not really talked about or known in the eighties and early nineties. 76 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:33,840 And I just remember it being a character that was disgusting. It was a character we were supposed to 77 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:45,360 loathe, fear, and maybe pity. I think watching as an adult, there's elements of you feel sad, 78 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:54,800 you're just confused. Well, I remember that being like my primary emotion after watching that film. 79 00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:04,240 Like a mix of disgust and pity, which I think falls in line with the vast majority of the queer 80 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:11,120 portrayals. Being queer or trans was seen as predatory and a mental illness in the time period. 81 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:20,400 And I feel like the character of Bill was the name. Buffalo Bill. Buffalo Bill perfectly 82 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:28,000 encapsulates the two like primary ideas that were or rather emotions that were associated with 83 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,920 queer people at the time. Yeah. Well, and it's a direct parallel to what we saw in movies like Psycho, 84 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:42,000 where again, this crazed murderous individual dressing up like his mother in Psycho. Spoiler 85 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,320 alerts for folks who haven't seen these movies. Didn't that movie come out in like the 40s? Yeah. 86 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:55,440 Yeah. So there is a fascinating documentary that I believe is available even still on Netflix called 87 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:03,280 Disclosure. And one of the producers behind the movie Disclosure or the documentary Disclosure 88 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,720 is Laverne Cox, known from Orange is the New Black and other really prominent movies, one of the first 89 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:16,560 openly trans actors, actresses to actually win awards for their work. And the whole documentary 90 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:25,040 Disclosure is really about the depiction of non-binary or trans identities from silent movies all 91 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:32,800 the way up until recent times and how some of them have improved in terms of the depictions, 92 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:38,800 but some sadly have remained the same characters that we're supposed to fear or feel sorry for, 93 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:47,040 or who are supposed to reflect mental illness. As a clinical social worker, I can parallel 94 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:54,400 what was even going on clinically in the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Health 95 00:10:54,400 --> 00:11:04,560 Disorders, where homosexuality, transvestism lived as diagnosed conditions in the American 96 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:11,120 Psychological Association's literal Bible, the clinicians diagnosing. So again, it gets to that 97 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:19,120 chicken egg snake in its own tail, like which comes first? This horribly harmful and inaccurate 98 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:26,240 depiction of queer identities and then the media follows suit? Or did we have these stereotypes in 99 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:37,040 the media that medical science is then following suit? Yeah, well I feel like especially for like 100 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:43,200 mental illness diagnoses, especially with our like limited understanding of like neurochemistry, this 101 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:49,360 is I feel like the most heavily impacted by culture of like the entirety of the medical field. 102 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:55,520 Yeah. Right, and it's really dependent on what society deems to be a disorder of the mind. 103 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:02,240 100%. Like what we deem to be irregular, abnormal, and something that needs to be fixed. Right, 104 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,440 it can be treated, therefore it can be cured. Yeah, yeah, and I think like the transition for like 105 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:16,560 trans-genderism in the DSM-5 going from like being trans as the issue to the gender dysphoria 106 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:23,280 as the issue. I think that's a really interesting, I guess, like transition that we made as far as 107 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:31,280 diagnosis goes. 100%, it's probably one of the most impactful from modern diagnosing perspectives. 108 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:38,240 One of the most, I think, impactful changes into the current DSM that we as clinicians use now. 109 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:45,440 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, when we were talking about this earlier, you had shared that you're 110 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:51,120 maybe not as familiar with some of the old movies. Like I was rattling off a bunch of movies that- 111 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:58,400 And honestly, like in one year and out the other. I think that it's really interesting because we 112 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:04,640 talk about in these old movies, queer people being portrayed as predatory. But like, as far as media 113 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:11,520 that I watched in my youth that I found to be like sort of fundamental and pivotal and something that 114 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,400 really brought me a lot of joy. I wasn't exposed to a lot of these negative depictions of queer 115 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:23,760 people. Instead, like I remember watching Big Mouth and seeing the character of Matthew develop 116 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:29,120 and just being elated because I felt like someone like me was being depicted. 117 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:37,280 And obviously, to some extent, Matthew is a stereotype, but also I feel like Big Mouth does 118 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:43,360 a really fantastic job of portraying the teenage emotions through its vulgarity and humor. 119 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:50,080 Yeah, and arguably Matthew's character is probably the healthiest character of all the characters on 120 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:58,720 that cartoon. Which is like a huge flip from some of these other movies and media that we're talking 121 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,960 about. You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about even though you haven't necessarily seen 122 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,680 all the movies that I was talking about, The Crying Game, I Now Pronounce You, Chuck and Larry, 123 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:16,880 Chasing Amy, The Talented Mr. Ripley, I mean, on and on. I haven't necessarily seen them. However, 124 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:28,480 in current news media, in some news media, those stereotypes persist. This whole narrative that 125 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:35,120 men dressed as women are trying to get into women's bathrooms to perpetrate some kind of sexual 126 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:43,360 violence. Well, we can see like the shadows of these negative depictions in like what culture 127 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:51,040 views these people as, right? Like I feel like, especially like a lot of parents these days or 128 00:14:51,040 --> 00:15:01,360 like older people only have the exposure of these, like I would say quite vile projections of what 129 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,720 it means to be trans. And that's the only data that they're operating off of. That's the only 130 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,320 like image that they have of trans people. So obviously from those images, when you hear that 131 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:17,600 trans people are going to be going into like others bathrooms, that is like scary and inflammatory, 132 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:23,920 but it's entirely misinformed as far as perspective. And like they don't view them as actual people. 133 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:31,120 Like, actually, I think that's a big problem that I have with a lot of queer media is like, in order 134 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:38,400 to fit it into like a palatable and digestible plot, you need to boil down queer characters 135 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:44,880 to the stereotypes which define their like group, right? And I think that leads to a really shallow 136 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:53,920 and hollow projection of what it means to be queer. But that's what you have to do in order to create 137 00:15:53,920 --> 00:16:00,960 a successful franchise in media. That's right. That's right. Because we know that it's a business, 138 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:09,840 just like any other business. And so sales and advertising dollars and tickets, and all of the 139 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:19,600 revenue associated with Hollywood, it's feeding what the masses might want to consume. Yeah, yeah. 140 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:26,720 Yeah, for sure. It's been for me, it's been this looking back at the role of media in my life over 141 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:34,560 the last four years, kind of years, is when you were describing that sense of elation with the 142 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:40,320 character on Big Mouth Matthew, when I watched the show Heartstopper for the first time, 143 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:48,240 my heart literally stopped. It was as an adult, like just within the last couple years, 144 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:56,080 it was one of the first times that I've seen queer characters that weren't the victim of violence. 145 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:02,720 They weren't dead by the third episode. They weren't accused of murder by the fourth episode. 146 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:14,560 They were struggling with everyday teen problems. That depiction of queer joy and gender euphoria 147 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:21,040 did not exist when I was growing up. Yeah. Oh, another show that just like I was so 148 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:26,880 elated when watching some of the depictions in it, and I found to be a really impactful show 149 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,240 in my early teens, was Sex Education. Oh, yeah. It's such a good show. 150 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:40,480 The normalization of this idea of a spectrum and non-binary identities from both a sexuality 151 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:46,000 perspective and a gender perspective, but how these characters are just so seamlessly woven 152 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:54,080 into the scope of the show that I remember shows, you might not be able to relate to some of this, 153 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:59,120 but I remember shows like Growing Pains and Family Ties, like those 80s family sitcoms. 154 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:06,000 There was the very special episode where the LGBTQ plus character has a cameo and then they're 155 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:12,080 never to be seen again. Yeah. And it was really about how the main characters react to this 156 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:20,240 non-traditional character who's entered the storyline. And that wasn't my... I didn't want 157 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:26,640 to see myself reflected as a stand on or a wild one. Yeah, yeah. My storyline was playing out and 158 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:34,160 I wanted more than just a very special episode. I wanted a whole nine season arc of what a life 159 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:42,560 similar to mine might look like. Yeah. And I think another problem that using stereotypes presents 160 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:50,080 is you are not creating a character with other aspects to your personality. There's no dimension. 161 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:56,640 You're putting a gay person on stage, having them be gay, and then having them leave. An exit. 162 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:03,440 Obviously, we're talking about specifically the queer aspect right now, but I feel like boiling 163 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:12,480 down an individual to exclusively being queer is such a disservice to them. And what I really 164 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:20,480 liked about the depictions in Sex Education is, A, yes, being queer was an important thing, 165 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:27,280 but it wasn't the personality. It wasn't the only personality traits. It was simply a variable 166 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:35,520 thrown into the mix. And with Sex Education, they showed such a variety of experiences. 167 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:42,080 Obviously, the main character's best friend was one end of the spectrum. And then there was the 168 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:48,240 bully guy. Yeah, that's right. And I thought that that showed two very different yet parallel 169 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:56,720 experiences as being a gay man. Yeah. Which went throughout several seasons. Yeah, yeah. I mean, 170 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,120 it wasn't just to your point. It wasn't just a walk-on role. I mean, these are main characters 171 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:07,440 living their main character lives. And I feel the same way about Heartstopper. I remember watching 172 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:18,960 the FX series Pose, which is a telling of queer life in 80s New York and drag culture and drag 173 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:28,800 ball culture. And that show makes history having the most openly trans actors on that show 174 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:36,160 portraying trans characters. So actually using folks with lived experience to play folks with 175 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:46,000 lived experience. And it's just such an inclusive, in some ways heartbreaking, because it also in that 176 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:55,920 period of time is full on AIDS crisis. Yeah. And so it's gay New York City, drag ball culture, 177 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:03,680 and this epidemic that was killing thousands of individuals to an incredibly tone deaf 178 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:09,200 administration who didn't seem to care. And so the telling of all those stories interwoven 179 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:19,520 is such a moving drama. There are heartbreaking moments, but there are such moments of queer joy 180 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:27,280 created in these shows. And you and I could go on and on. I mean, from TV, the depiction of queer 181 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:34,720 identities in more modern TV series, they're not the very special episodes. Yeah. These are woven 182 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:44,480 within the fabric of who these characters are. Yeah. And then we have music, right? We have 183 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:56,880 a whole generation of queer musicians and artists, Little Nas X, Troye Sivan, who are 184 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:04,880 not hiding this element of their sexuality or gender. They're writing lyrics and singing from 185 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:13,680 their experience. Ben Platt's new song, Ben Platt is Broadway. Yeah, I'm familiar. 186 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,280 Evan Hansen, Roland Deere, and so on. Yeah, politician. I love that show. That was a good 187 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:28,640 show. But Ben Platt's new single is called Andrew. And it's told from his perspective of 188 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:40,320 a queer boy who's fallen in love with his classmate. And I related to every lyric of that song, 189 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:48,720 thinking about my own middle school, early high school days. It's just, I sometimes sit in 190 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:59,120 awesome with folks your age. And there are moments that I think about what might, how might my 191 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:05,920 adolescence have looked different if every time I turned on the radio, there was a queer artist 192 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:12,080 performing. If every time I turned on the TV or went to the movie theater or sat in a show, 193 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:20,640 traveling show, I saw queer characters depicted positively instead of every time turning on the 194 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:29,680 TV, it was the queer character is struggling with substance use disorder, struggling with homelessness, 195 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:37,680 struggling with being bullied, murderous rages, deceitful, malicious intent. That was every queer 196 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:45,520 character I saw. Yeah. Actually, I think another part of the music industry that's been really 197 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:55,040 formulative in my development is like show tunes. I love show tunes. Actually, I've been listening 198 00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:01,600 to a lot of Mean Girls and Heathers. Same. And I think the depiction of queer characters, 199 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,560 like I love my dead gay son, obviously like unfortunate situation. But I think that song is 200 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,760 so slick. Yeah. Yeah. My husband and I just got back from New York City actually last weekend. 201 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:17,760 And one of the shows we saw just recently was a show called Ann Juliet, which is a modern 202 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:23,680 retelling of Romeo and Juliet, which asks the question, why does Juliet have to die? 203 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:29,600 Why does Juliet have to die at the end of Romeo and Juliet? What would happen if Juliet allows 204 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:37,760 Romeo to be dead and finds that her life can continue without her teenage boyfriend? But the 205 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:44,960 LGBTQ plus storylines woven within Ann Juliet, and it's all, and the soundtrack is all Brittany, 206 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:54,720 Katie Perry, Kelly Clarkson, Backstreet Boys. It is a my 90s, early 2000s playlist. It was such an 207 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:03,440 empowering energy ridden show that also highlighted queer joy. Yeah. Yeah. It's an amazing show. 208 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:12,560 You and I were also talking about this idea of allies and the number of musicians and performers 209 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:18,080 who are very public about their allyship and supporting the community. And that has become 210 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:23,600 a part of their brand. So of course we were talking about Taylor Swift, my girl, Tay, my girl, Tay. 211 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:33,440 But how this has become an incredible part of who she is and the culture of her fandom that she 212 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:42,480 creates. She is a fierce ally. She never made anybody less gay. And therefore, she's a very 213 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:50,400 her fan base feels very similar to that. And her fan base, with the exception of being 50 year old 214 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:57,840 gay guys, it's primarily adolescents and young adults who are resonating with these lyrics. 215 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:07,760 I think like the like, I think allyship is such an interesting thing to look at because like, 216 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:14,720 I don't know, when I do like Taylor Swift's music, but when I first saw Come Down, Calm Down, Come Out, 217 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:22,160 I was like, I kind of scoffed at it a little. Yeah. Because I do think that it's a very important 218 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:27,760 thing. And I love allies for being allies. But also there's part of me that like wants to gatekeep 219 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:33,680 and be like, this is, this is like my thing. This is my in groups. Yeah, I get that stuff. Like, 220 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:39,600 don't steal that from us. I get that. I also because I am such a Swifty, you know this, 221 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:46,240 because I am such a Swifty, I know a little bit about like the backstories of these songs and how 222 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:54,160 the videos get made and what shows up. So the video for Calm Down is very intentionally over the top. 223 00:26:54,160 --> 00:27:05,760 Yeah, yeah. And the cameos, lots of- I like that. Yeah, the video is just a banger. But it really 224 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:13,360 was an attempt to push back on critics who at the time were criticizing her for trying to cash in 225 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,520 on this idea of allyship, that it was performative, that she was throwing bones. Oh, so she was 226 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:25,120 intentionally evocative with it. 100%. Oh, I think that that shifts my viewpoint a little. 100%. 227 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:33,680 Yeah, she leaned all the way into it. And therefore her fans lean all the way into it. Yeah. 228 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:41,120 Yeah. Well, I think it really is like allies are very important. And I think that goes for like, 229 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:48,560 allying with any downtrodden group, you need as a person of privilege to represent groups that are 230 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:55,840 not privileged. And I have an immense amount of privilege, like my socioeconomic status, 231 00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:04,720 the color of my skin, the area in which I'm raised. And it is my obligation to attempt to aid other 232 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:10,320 minority downtrodden groups and attempt to make the world a better and easier place to live in 233 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:20,000 for everybody. Yeah, you and I are carbon copies of that mentality for sure. And what I love also 234 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:28,640 about this conversation with queer media and allies is we've seen an evolution of the portrayal of an 235 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:38,560 ally also happen through queer media. And so what used to be the stereotypical ally was the 236 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:46,560 one single youngish woman who hung out with the gays because she feels safer, it's less pressure, 237 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:52,800 they'll tell it like it is, it's the it's the sassy gay boy, my sassy gay best friends. I think like, 238 00:28:53,280 --> 00:29:03,280 I was talking to one of my friends who is, dare I say flaming. Yeah. And he feels used by a lot 239 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,360 of the women that attempt to like enter his life and become friends with him. Because they're 240 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,960 interesting. Because they're looking for him to like fit into a box, be like the stereotype, 241 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,960 which they think he is. And like, he doesn't feel like they're attempting to create a connection 242 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:25,360 with him. He feels like they're attempting to like, hang out with a model of a personality type, 243 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:32,320 right? Interesting. But also to he forms very genuine relationships, and he really enjoys those. 244 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:40,560 Just like, I don't know, he also too has a really interesting perspective on queer media. I think 245 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:46,800 we've talked about it a lot. And he feels that maybe as some internalized homophobia. But he 246 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:52,400 sort of like scoffs at and thinks that there's too much queer representation. Which I think is a 247 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,760 super interesting perspective. Yeah, because he's like, I love gay people, whatever. He's like very 248 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:05,280 ally. Well, he's very gay. But he always says I'm very ally, but like, too much gays. Like, yeah, 249 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:12,400 I couldn't disagree with him more. Coming from a childhood where none of this existed, or none of 250 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:20,160 it. Yeah, yeah. As a perspective, like I'm, I'm of the mindset that we only need more of it to make 251 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:26,960 up for the horrendous lack of representation, lack of healthy representation. That's been in 252 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:35,360 existence for decades. Yeah, I say bring it on. But bring it on in a way that feels seamless, 253 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,760 and doesn't feel forced. Yeah, yeah. Like some of the shows we've been referencing, 254 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:48,080 master that. Well, like I was saying, like, being queer isn't like, the thing. It's just a facet of 255 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,960 being like a human. It should not be the thing that the emphasis is placed upon. The episode is 256 00:30:52,960 --> 00:31:01,600 written around. Yeah, yeah. Um, but like, forgot where I was going with that. My apologies. 257 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:09,440 But I think it's a fascinating conversation and one that maybe in future episodes, we should invite 258 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:16,560 your friend in to have this conversation live. And in the moment, I, my perspective as a almost 259 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:26,160 50 year old gay man, and as a behavioral health professional, I know the, I know the impact that 260 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,520 lack of representation and inclusion had on my upbringing and some of the internalized homophobia 261 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:39,280 that I had to manage and struggled with because in part of I think this, the lack of representation 262 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:46,000 in the media around me. So I come from that perspective and clinically, I know the value 263 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,240 of representation. And I would argue, and I, if your friend was here, I would say, 264 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,440 having that opinion also comes from a place of privilege. Yeah. The privilege of saying, 265 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,520 we have too much representation. I was going to comment on that because like that, 266 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,840 I think that statement comes out of like a not understanding what it is like to operate as a 267 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:15,360 queer person in a vacuum, not having any semblance of cultural identity. Right. And you're just flying 268 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:23,520 blind. Yeah. But I think it's super interesting because they thought that it's oversaturated. 269 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,840 Yeah. And I say, we can't have enough of it. Bring it on more and more and more, more and more. And 270 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:39,760 again, that is me saying we have decades of reparative work to do. Yeah. So having more 271 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:48,240 of it in a meaningful, intentional way is only going to better this next generation. Yeah. Yeah. 272 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:54,960 Of queer youth who need desperately to have a different role model experience to have. 273 00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:01,120 I mean, I actually, maybe I'm being quite optimistic and maybe even bordering on 274 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:11,440 naive here, but I think if the media can get their shit together and start 275 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:19,760 intentionally dismissing the stereotypes of the past, perhaps things like internalized homophobia, 276 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:28,240 perhaps things like externalized homophobia and transphobia can be extinguished by increasing 277 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:36,800 the representation of this community and depicting us in a way that doesn't have us killing our moms, 278 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:43,840 burying women in our basement dungeons, or manipulating people so we can get them in the sack. 279 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:49,600 Well, I think in the future, like the very close future, and to some extent now, at least in my 280 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:56,560 generation, like being queer and the queer experience has become so normalized that it's 281 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:04,720 just seen as like a universal experience to some extent. And like it's no longer of interest. Yeah. 282 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:10,560 It's just become a very regular thing. Yeah. It's not a hot button topic anymore. It's just, oh, 283 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,400 that's a thing that's happening. It's a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than like it being a controversial 284 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:22,160 issue or whatever, it's just a normal part of living in society. Yeah. And I think that that 285 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,800 is the place where we need to be at. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, it's no longer. I think it's the 286 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,520 place we're headed to. I think you're right. I think you're right. I'm excited to continue 287 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:37,200 this conversation. You're providing us a little spoiler of what our next episode is going to be 288 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:45,360 about around stigma and mental health. So we'll get there next week. Soran, this has been a super 289 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,280 interesting conversation with you today. I think it's been marvelous. I love it. Taylor, 290 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:55,760 if you're listening, call me. Call me. All right, all thanks so much for spending another episode of 291 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:01,040 inspired insights podcast. I am Chris McLaughlin. I'm Soran Peterson. And we'll see you next time. 292 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,800 See ya. Inspired insights podcast has been brought to you by inspired consulting group LLC. 293 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:19,680 Edited and produced by Amanda Seidel. Music by Derek Herter. Copyright 2024, all rights reserved.