1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000
Soren!

2
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,000
Hi!

3
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,000
Welcome back!

4
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:18,720
And I also understand how your parents have that mama-papa-bear perspective too.

5
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:23,360
I mean, that's the, that's the thing about it.

6
00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:34,160
That's another lens that I think it's important for us to talk about in this conversation

7
00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:36,840
about travel and seeing the world.

8
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,800
Because one of the other lenses that you view the world through when you travel is through

9
00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:47,840
the lens of young, student, queer, individual.

10
00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:55,600
And so being outside of the bubble here in Maine and here in our smaller towns of Maine

11
00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:05,720
and being out there and living such an unapologetically authentic life as you do and as you should,

12
00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:11,000
with that comes a little bit of fear or maybe a lot of fear.

13
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:20,760
Well, yeah, I honestly, I'm not afraid of being attacked for my identity or the way

14
00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,080
I express myself in other countries.

15
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,640
But my parents feel a lot of fear for that.

16
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,600
I feel a lot of fear.

17
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:29,720
We've talked about this, right?

18
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,760
I feel that fear for you and for others.

19
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,720
Well, you've traveled internationally on many occasions.

20
00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,560
What's your experience with that?

21
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:39,560
Yeah.

22
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:47,920
Well, my husband and I both, I think, would see ourselves as informed consumers of the

23
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:49,520
travel industry.

24
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:55,680
There are places that I don't even need to mention that are completely not on my list

25
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:56,680
of...

26
00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:02,520
I might have interest in seeing them and experiencing those cultures, but because of that country's

27
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:09,280
laws, culture, or perspective on things like gender, identity, and sexual orientation,

28
00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,080
we're not even remotely on the list of places to go.

29
00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:20,800
We won't even consider that because I, like you, want to be able to show up in the world,

30
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:29,320
whether it's here in Maine or in Portugal or China or the UK, as myself with my husband

31
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:35,760
who happens to also be a man, obviously.

32
00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:41,920
I think one of the things that we're a little bit different about is your risk tolerance

33
00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:43,760
is probably higher than mine.

34
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,320
I'm a much more...

35
00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:49,960
In terms of risk, I see myself a little bit more conservative.

36
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,080
I do fear for my safety at times.

37
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:59,240
Even just south of our country, though, having going on cruises and being in Mexico, or I

38
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:05,720
was in the... my husband and I got our symbolic wedding, which our seven-year anniversary

39
00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,260
of that wedding is tomorrow in Punta Cana, the Dominican.

40
00:03:10,260 --> 00:03:17,640
We were told right out of the gate, do not wear your wedding rings, do not hold hands,

41
00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:22,380
do not show affection by our travel agent outside of that resort.

42
00:03:22,380 --> 00:03:24,920
When you're in the resort, you're protected.

43
00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:30,360
Those walls, both physical and metaphorical, will keep you safe.

44
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:36,520
The hotel staff who are absolutely relying on your tips and your tourism dollars, you'll

45
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:43,280
be safe the minute your transportation van leaves, you're not married.

46
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,600
Yeah, that's really unfortunate.

47
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,880
Just like I sit with that, and that's...

48
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,180
We talk about privilege, right?

49
00:03:51,180 --> 00:03:55,040
Which is a part of what we want to explore over our time together.

50
00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,860
And I think that's a privilege that a lot of heterosexual and cisgender folks, dear

51
00:03:59,860 --> 00:04:07,000
friends of mine who we travel with, have not or cannot really truly appreciate.

52
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,240
Today's episode has been brought to you by the Inspired Allies Certificate Course, a

53
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:18,240
module designed to support providers on LGBTQ, their confidence and confidence in better

54
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,240
partnering with the LGBTQ plus community.

55
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:31,200
But the overlay of these dynamics of self-worth, of oppression, of living in a life of not

56
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,640
maybe necessarily being able to be authentic or true.

57
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:41,920
And when I think back about what we were sharing with the travel pieces, the privilege that

58
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:48,560
my husband and I have of being able to go to places like the Dominican and be a little

59
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:55,840
on the DL while we're traveling for safety purposes, there's privilege there too.

60
00:04:55,840 --> 00:05:01,720
Many layers of privilege because we always get to come back to good old Maine and live

61
00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:02,720
our lives like we have.

62
00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:03,720
And have a supportive environment.

63
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,600
And be surrounded by people who love us and care about us.

64
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:08,600
That's true.

65
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:16,600
And I think even in Maine, there's so many children that can't go back to a supportive

66
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:22,080
environment, like the keeping your identity on the download and keeping who you are on

67
00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,480
the download is just a constant state of existence.

68
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:32,740
And I think like not even with being queer, although that is a major factor in identity,

69
00:05:32,740 --> 00:05:38,740
just like people are afraid to show who they are because they're afraid of rejection.

70
00:05:38,740 --> 00:05:42,440
So then we homogenize ourselves.

71
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,400
Which is a hallmark of adolescence, right?

72
00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:45,400
Yeah.

73
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:46,400
Hallmark of adolescence.

74
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:47,400
Yeah.

75
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:53,720
Here's what I know, Sorin, and you shared earlier on in this conversation about how

76
00:05:53,720 --> 00:06:00,080
you've never really had that fear when you travel of being you and living your life.

77
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:07,560
And just unapologetically, Sorin, I know your parents have had those considerations though.

78
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:13,320
And some of the travel decisions that your family has made or you've made as a family,

79
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:20,080
you might not necessarily in this moment have been aware, but a lot has gone into, okay,

80
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:25,440
Sorin Sorin, we love Sorin, we want Sorin to be Sorin.

81
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,840
And we've got to think about where we're going to stay, how we're going to get there, what

82
00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:36,120
Sorin's documentation or papers, how that reads, what that says.

83
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:44,000
And as you're exploring going away to college, trust me when I say your parents have had

84
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:52,640
considerable conversation with themselves, with me, with others about would we feel any

85
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,320
different if Sorin had decided to go to college in Mexico?

86
00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:58,320
Yeah.

87
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:04,120
Well, I was just about to touch on that exactly, right?

88
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:13,640
I have been allowed to maintain this mindset and be unafraid to be who I am and be unabashed

89
00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:20,560
in that, even in the school system, exclusively because my parents paid so much attention

90
00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:29,600
to while I was being raised and continue to, creating an accepting environment for me where

91
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:36,520
I can cultivate myself, right, so that I have a harvest to show those around me.

92
00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,440
And I don't think that that's the case with a lot of families.

93
00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,080
I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your childhood experience, like

94
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,640
growing up as queer and what that looked like for you.

95
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,080
Were your parents accepting what was the situation?

96
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:54,080
Yeah.

97
00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,040
Yeah, buckle up.

98
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:03,560
It was a different time than growing up in the 80s, a very different time.

99
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:14,760
I cannot think of one out kid identifying male or female regardless during my high school

100
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,240
career.

101
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:22,160
There were kids like myself where there was a lot of talk, a lot of teasing, a lot of

102
00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,200
bullying in a very, you know, this is long before cell phones, long before the internet,

103
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:32,520
of course, so a lot of very traditional kind of teasing and bullying where, you know, thinking

104
00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:38,480
back and having had conversations with some of those kids that I went to school with who

105
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:45,280
are now living a very out, authentic life, there was this sense of community that we

106
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:51,560
never cultivated probably because of being scared of guilty by association, like we've

107
00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:52,680
been talking about, right?

108
00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:54,180
Here's that theme again.

109
00:08:54,180 --> 00:08:55,360
And so I was not out.

110
00:08:55,360 --> 00:09:04,960
I did not even, it was not even an option to be out in the mid late 80s and early 90s.

111
00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:11,640
And that sense of shame and that sense of needing to hide, of not calling attention

112
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:17,840
to yourself, not raising your hand in class to talk because your voice was a little bit

113
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,280
more effeminate or a lot more effeminate than the rest of the class.

114
00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:27,120
And that was your kryptonite, you know, the way that I showed up in school a little bit,

115
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:35,360
a little bit, I wasn't the masculine, the picture of masculine athleticism, you know?

116
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,900
And so the way I talked, the way I moved, who my friends were, who my interests were

117
00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:45,920
not stereotypical masculine.

118
00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:53,160
That's part of the strength that I see in myself now 40 years later, but back then I

119
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,520
did everything I could do to hide that, to keep that under wraps, to not draw attention

120
00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,960
to yourself because to be authentic was risk.

121
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,780
It was making yourself the target.

122
00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:12,680
And I remember some of the more painful memories of my childhood I have is calling other kids

123
00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:17,600
gay, calling other kids the F word, calling other kids queer, which back then, as you

124
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,160
know, you and I talked about was not a word of empowerment.

125
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:22,160
Queer was an insult.

126
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,840
It was, and all of those other insulting, those insulting words.

127
00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:35,420
I remember targeting other kids to go around, to be the bully because I did not want that

128
00:10:35,420 --> 00:10:36,680
target on me.

129
00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:37,680
Yeah.

130
00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:42,240
Yeah, I think that's very unfortunate.

131
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:43,240
It is unfortunate.

132
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:51,240
I'm sorry that you had to do that, but that is like something that kids do a lot, a lot.

133
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:59,920
Like if I have an insecurity, then I don't want that to be drawn attention for me.

134
00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:04,920
So it's so much easier to attempt to reveal other people's insecurities.

135
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:11,000
It's like a charade, a distraction, and it creates negative experiences for others.

136
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:20,120
And I see that like today, even though the students that I engage with are super far

137
00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,680
more mature in like a classroom setting.

138
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:24,680
Yeah.

139
00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:31,000
Oftentimes that still is the case, especially in like the academic competitive, whatever

140
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,200
nonsense.

141
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:40,320
Like sometimes kids will draw, intentionally draw attention to the faults of others so

142
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,320
that people don't realize that they're not performing on par or performing at the level

143
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:45,600
that they think that they should.

144
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:46,600
Yeah, it's human nature.

145
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,560
Like we were talking about, that's part of the human condition.

146
00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:54,400
Here's the other thing that I know, and I don't pretend to have the data points from

147
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,960
now 30, 40 years ago.

148
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:03,440
When I was a kid, kind of going through that internalized coming out process and thinking

149
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:14,280
about identity tolerance and identity acceptance and who were the role models in the mid 80s,

150
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,200
AIDS epidemic all over the news.

151
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,240
In the early 90s, don't ask, don't tell, Defense of Marriage Act.

152
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:27,960
So the political environment wasn't much different than it is today.

153
00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:36,920
But what I remember is hearing things like, oh, one in 10, one in 10 was like the common

154
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:44,360
data point that would often be referenced that one in 10 identify as LGBT.

155
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:51,600
Here's what we know now, 30 years later, as controversial as some might feel this is,

156
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:58,680
here in our state of Maine, the data is now looking at closer to 30% of high school students

157
00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:04,160
identify somewhere on that LGBTQ plus continuum.

158
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,080
That is night and day from the way that I grew up.

159
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,960
Because what that also means is not just this idea of community that you were also talking

160
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:20,960
about, but when I was in school, nobody even talked about having parents or family members,

161
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,940
extended family members, siblings that were gay or lesbian or bi or trans.

162
00:13:25,940 --> 00:13:33,240
Now with this 30 ish percent of kids identifying on that continuum, every kid knows another

163
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,560
kid who identifies as LGBT.

164
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:42,680
And so it's this, there are friendships, there are relationships that have been cultivated

165
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:44,800
and it's still a big deal.

166
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,520
And I don't, you know, we're in Maine, so we've got to just honor that we might have

167
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,600
some privileges of our state, that there are places in our country where it is absolutely

168
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,500
not safe to be out in high school or middle school.

169
00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:02,920
There are places in Maine that that might be true, but generally speaking, I am blown

170
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:13,440
away, you and I've talked about this, I am blown away at the courage and bravery that

171
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,640
youth of your age group are living their lives.

172
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:17,640
I'm jealous of it.

173
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,440
I'm envious of that ability.

174
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:29,760
I often think about what my life might look like today if back in 1987, 1988, I could

175
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,880
have been who I knew myself to be.

176
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,960
What might be different?

177
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:36,360
Yeah.

178
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:43,760
And I'm just so fat because you touched on this coming out to yourself almost, and I

179
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,480
never had that process.

180
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:52,240
I remember fifth grade, I talked to my mom and I was like, yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm

181
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,280
quite into boys.

182
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,800
And she got like a little afraid for me.

183
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,580
And I remember not talking about it for like another year.

184
00:14:59,580 --> 00:15:05,360
But obviously I was given an environment in which that was totally okay.

185
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:06,960
I could have that conversation.

186
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:12,080
It didn't even seem like I was feeling any way unnatural, right?

187
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:17,640
Like it didn't feel like I was feeling out of the norm because it was so like allowed

188
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,800
for in my household.

189
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:25,360
But that's not the case for most kids in this situation.

190
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:32,960
Also, sorry, I don't mean to trample over you, but you touched on how throughout human

191
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,200
history the amount of queer people has probably been a constant.

192
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,080
The acceptance of queer people has not been though.

193
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:47,240
And you felt isolated and powerless in your situation because queer people were divided

194
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,480
and were not allowed to exist out in the open.

195
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:57,440
But now probably the same amount of queer individuals, we just are unified to some extent

196
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,160
and we're allowed to live out in the open.

197
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:05,560
So it feels so much more empowering to do this, right?

198
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:11,760
Yeah, Laverne Cox, who folks might know from Orange is the New Black, very openly trans

199
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:20,800
actors in her documentary Disclosure, which is one of my favorite documentaries, tracing

200
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,720
Hollywood's depiction of gender diverse individuals since the black and white films.

201
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:32,160
But she says something along the lines of, we've always been here.

202
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:38,940
And she goes on by in talking about how she's not interested in living a life of being erased.

203
00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:42,240
So it's not only about us always being here.

204
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,600
It's making sure you know that we're here and that we've always been here.

205
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:54,640
Yeah, I, you know, I guess I want to say for folks listening, like you've referenced the

206
00:16:54,640 --> 00:17:00,080
environment that you've you're growing up in and your parents and I have to say, my

207
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:09,200
parents never uttered anything about you better not be how dare you like, yeah, I grew up

208
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:16,040
very similar to the way you're growing up now very privileged childhood wanted for nothing.

209
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,820
Totally committed, unconditionally loved.

210
00:17:19,820 --> 00:17:25,500
And so you know, I often think about why, you know, living in such an effort, which

211
00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:29,200
I know now would have been a very affirming household.

212
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:30,200
My mom's a worrier.

213
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,520
Sorry, Judy, for listening.

214
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:32,920
My mom's a worrier.

215
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:38,360
And so that may also have been kind of under the surface, like not wanting to do anything

216
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:42,940
or be anything that would make somebody else worry about me.

217
00:17:42,940 --> 00:17:49,400
But my inability to acknowledge this in myself or acknowledge it to myself, but never say

218
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,080
the words outwards.

219
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,380
And I don't even think when I'm about to say, you know, I did not come out to my parents

220
00:17:55,380 --> 00:17:59,480
formally until 1999.

221
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:08,800
Yeah, like almost quick math, see math, seven, seven years after high school, I was in graduate

222
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:15,800
school when I opened when I said those words to my parents, I had I was out as we know

223
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:21,280
when when people of all ages are coming out, they might be out to some groups and not others.

224
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:27,920
And that's part of the what makes this time period so scary is, OK, who knows who doesn't

225
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:28,920
know?

226
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,960
This group knows I can't have these groups together because I don't want this group like

227
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,540
all being able to try to control and own the narrative, all of logistics, but not be not

228
00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:42,700
saying those words until I was 25 years old.

229
00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:49,680
And part of what drove those words happened to be the murder of Matthew Shepard in in

230
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:55,600
1998, the day after my birthday.

231
00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,520
And I remember this is like one of my defining when people, you know, queer people, we always

232
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,800
have our coming out stories and our coming out journeys in these moments.

233
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,400
Like you remember saying that to your mom.

234
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:14,440
One of my defining moments was the news of Matthew Shepard's death and.

235
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,840
Kicking up two things, lots of stuff, but two very prominent things.

236
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:25,960
One, the tragedy, the sadness and the anger that that brought up in the fear.

237
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,600
This is the world we live in where this shit can happen.

238
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:30,600
Yeah.

239
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:31,600
Yeah.

240
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:39,080
I think that like my mom, especially like of the people that I know, it scares her like

241
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,080
the shooting in Lewiston.

242
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:42,080
Parents are afraid.

243
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:48,560
Yeah, like it's it's it's a scary environment for kids to be living in.

244
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:49,560
Yeah.

245
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:50,560
Yeah.

246
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:51,560
And I want to go back to something.

247
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:52,560
Sorry to interrupt you.

248
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,560
I want to go back to something, though, that you talked about in our first episode about

249
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:57,560
balance.

250
00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:58,560
Yeah.

251
00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:59,560
Yeah.

252
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,480
Like not the fear mongering.

253
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:10,920
Like we can talk about the realities and not use it as a morality tale or as a as a as

254
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,200
folklore to keep kids in their beds at night.

255
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,200
Yeah.

256
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:15,200
It's not the boogie man.

257
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,960
We're talking about real life things that we're processing at different generational,

258
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,480
you know, different generations and ages.

259
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,400
We're processing in our own ways.

260
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,040
But this shit is real.

261
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:33,320
Like we know that trans women of color are at greater risk, greatest risk of being murdered

262
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,440
in our country and in our world.

263
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:42,520
And some of the places that we've referenced already in this podcast because of their trans

264
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:43,520
identity.

265
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:44,520
Yeah.

266
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,480
And so for me, and this is a conversation I've now had in my adult life with my mom

267
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,200
and others who care about me, is it's it's trying to make space, holding two things at

268
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:54,200
the same time.

269
00:20:54,200 --> 00:21:00,000
One of our themes for today, I guess, is I can love you and celebrate you and want you

270
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,320
to be you in every sense of that word.

271
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,320
And I can be scared to shit for you.

272
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,320
Yeah.

273
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,280
Like I can have both of those things exist at the same time and struggle navigating those

274
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:11,280
two things.

275
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,620
Yeah, I totally agree.

276
00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:22,880
And you brought up like higher rates of murder for like queer trans women or black trans

277
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:23,880
women.

278
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:31,040
And like we see that throughout the entire LGBTQ community and like you and me, I think

279
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,400
of people in the community, we're almost at like the highest level of privilege.

280
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:37,400
Yeah.

281
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,040
We are white people with penises.

282
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,040
Yeah.

283
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,040
Yeah.

284
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,000
And so awesome podcast, not podcast, I'm sorry, TED Talk.

285
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,040
And as we're talking, I'm like, oh, how do we get these resources to people?

286
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,200
So mark this.

287
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,080
But there's a there's an incredible TED Talk called the Aesthetics of Survival.

288
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:03,400
And it's um, um, now I'm blanking on Neff's first name, but the Aesthetics of Survival.

289
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:11,240
And in this TED Talk, she talks about one's ability to pass either a straight or if trans

290
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:18,760
or gender diverse as be able to pass as a woman or a man in this world that we live

291
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:19,760
in.

292
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:27,640
And you and I probably have the ability if we chose to, to travel anywhere and pass.

293
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:28,640
Oh, yeah.

294
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,540
You know, we as white men on the outside, you know what people how we express our gender

295
00:22:34,540 --> 00:22:37,500
most of the time and how people see us.

296
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:38,800
We're my we're white men.

297
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:39,800
Yeah.

298
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,800
And that comes that privilege, but that some of that privilege is the difference between

299
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,360
life and death for so many.

300
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:48,160
That's so true.

301
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:55,360
And like every human being code switches to adapt to different environments in which they're

302
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:56,360
in.

303
00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:05,200
But like when somebody is expressing themselves, it sort of removes room for code switching,

304
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:11,200
which I think a lot of teenagers rely super heavily on code switching to their identity,

305
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:17,200
which is why so many teenagers just like become a as far as their expression goes, just like

306
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,200
a gray blob.

307
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:19,200
Yeah.

308
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:24,320
But here's what I know about code switching that I just think is is both tragic and fascinating.

309
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,720
There's there's the motivation, the motivation behind code switching, like there's code switching

310
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:36,120
that's a social skill that I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to become somebody a little

311
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:43,080
bit or a lot different in order to fit in in order to get you to like me, laugh together,

312
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,540
maybe maybe create a friendship.

313
00:23:46,540 --> 00:23:49,000
And then there's code switching for survival.

314
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:56,000
And those for me exist on this spectrum of far left and far right that code switching

315
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:02,000
as a social skill is thought of as kind of higher level thinking code switching as a

316
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,880
survival technique.

317
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,000
I don't know what that feels like.

318
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:16,200
Well, like for me, at least in my middle school situation, those two things were blended quite

319
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,080
closely.

320
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:25,960
And I still have, I guess, sort of like residual fear and like negative emotions attached to

321
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,820
code switching as a result of that.

322
00:24:27,820 --> 00:24:32,240
Like I was on the football team in middle school.

323
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,040
And I remember like, I was really afraid.

324
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,040
Yeah.

325
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,040
Like all the time.

326
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,040
Yeah.

327
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:47,760
When engaging with that and like at dances and stuff to when like talking to these like

328
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,000
boys at the time, but like to me, they were like men.

329
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,560
They were scary.

330
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:52,560
Yeah.

331
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,680
So I was like code switching socially to be accepted in this group.

332
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,640
But also if I wasn't accepted, it wasn't going to be pretty.

333
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,760
And it didn't end up being very pretty.

334
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:04,760
Yeah.

335
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,280
So for folks listening, let's talk a little bit about what code switching means, because

336
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,680
I think there might, this might be a term that some people don't necessarily know yet.

337
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,880
So when we're talking about code switching, you know, here's kind of how I interpret this

338
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:27,320
is code switching is that need that one has, regardless of motivation, it's that need that

339
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:36,000
one has to either suppress a part of their identities or take on some new identities

340
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,880
in order to better fit in however one defines that.

341
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:45,100
And this is a very, in the DEI and B world, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging world.

342
00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:51,680
This is a real important topic as you think about employees experience in the workplace

343
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:57,360
and their ability to feel like they're in an inclusive environment where they belong.

344
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:58,360
Yeah.

345
00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:07,160
And so if I am, I'll use sexuality, you know, as a gay man, my ability to hang with the

346
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:15,840
straight men of the office might, my success in my career or at that particular organization

347
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:22,560
might hinge on my ability to grow out and go out for beers and hang out at the clubs

348
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,640
and the evenings and whatever other stereotypes about the men in the office exist.

349
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:33,400
But I may feel that and that, and just, that doesn't necessarily mean that the organization

350
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:41,600
has made that a reality, but in the absence of a truly equitable or inclusive environment,

351
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,400
I might need to resort to code switching in order to survive.

352
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:54,480
And again, we're talking about survival very, from a career advancement all the way to life

353
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:55,480
or death.

354
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:56,480
Yeah.

355
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:57,480
Yeah.

356
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,160
And would you agree, is that definition kind of fitting?

357
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,000
No, I totally agree.

358
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:06,960
Like for me, I think of code switch, like I think of social situations as almost a puzzle

359
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,360
and to code switch is to augment one's shape in order to fit into that framework.

360
00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:13,360
Oh, that's brilliant.

361
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:14,360
I love that.

362
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:15,360
Yeah, yeah.

363
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:16,360
I love that.

364
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:20,560
It's to like adjust mannerisms, to adjust the things that you normally talk about in order

365
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,640
to more effectively fit in and engage with a certain group of people.

366
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:26,640
Yeah.

367
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:33,080
Like what you were just saying made me think because it's a balance between maintaining

368
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,040
culture and creating an inclusive environment.

369
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,040
Yep.

370
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,040
Right?

371
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,040
That's right.

372
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:45,200
Like every friend group has its culture, but also reducing the sort of idiosyncrasies of

373
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:54,160
that in order to make it more easy to engage with and more inclusive is really important.

374
00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:01,120
And I think like a lot of like people on the right interpret attempting to create more

375
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:07,400
equitable environments as their culture being erased.

376
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:13,560
So like we're making other people code switch to make it easier for us to exist.

377
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:14,560
Yeah.

378
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:20,680
And like it's in my eyes, like adhering to somebody's pronouns or whatever, it's common

379
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:21,680
courtesy.

380
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:22,680
It makes them feel better.

381
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:23,680
So I'm totally willing to do that.

382
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:24,680
Right.

383
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:32,000
But for some people, they think that their worldview is being erased because somebody's

384
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,720
asking them to make them feel better about themselves.

385
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:35,720
Right.

386
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,280
Which is the height of privilege.

387
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,280
I just have to say.

388
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,280
Yeah.

389
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,280
It's important to be mindful of that.

390
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,280
It is.

391
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,280
It is.

392
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,800
And I hope that maybe some of what we've been talking about already today is helping to

393
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,440
inspire some of those conversations in some of our listeners' worlds.

394
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,760
You referenced dance and that I had an immediate reaction to that.

395
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:04,640
Like I remember in my childhood, they were, you know, the local YMCA.

396
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:10,400
Certain times of the month, it was the Y dance and everyone went to the Y dance.

397
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:21,600
And my experience in middle school and high school with Y dances is like a, it is, I could

398
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:29,080
write a novel on this idea of code switching of who you dance with, who you stand with,

399
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:35,320
what you say, what you wear, who you even draw, who you come and go from to those dances,

400
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,400
what you do before and after was all about keeping up appearances.

401
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,420
For me, a very closeted gay kid.

402
00:29:44,420 --> 00:30:01,000
And I remember gravitating to one particular girl who we became like, I guess, boyfriend-girlfriend

403
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,880
as survival to get by.

404
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:11,400
And that individual, now I know, lives a very authentic queer life as well.

405
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,760
And so it's, yeah, yeah.

406
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,680
And so sadly necessary.

407
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,040
So sadly necessary.

408
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,040
Yeah.

409
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:22,040
Like I said, beard.

410
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,040
That's, yeah, we're like defining terms there.

411
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,120
I think it's important.

412
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:34,660
Beard is when a queer person is in a relationship with somebody of the opposite sex in order

413
00:30:34,660 --> 00:30:37,840
to like cover up their sexual orientation.

414
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:38,840
Masking.

415
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:39,840
It's about, it's about.

416
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:40,840
Yeah, yeah.

417
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:47,240
And sometimes these are, beards are mutual and sometimes it's not mutual.

418
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,240
And that's a totally different and interesting circumstance.

419
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:58,320
And like, I think in beards where not both partners don't know or one partner doesn't

420
00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,320
know.

421
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:00,320
Which I certainly have had in my life.

422
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:01,320
Yeah.

423
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,440
Like who's morally culpable for that?

424
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,240
Oh, these are, yeah.

425
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,620
I mean, these are, these are conversations.

426
00:31:07,620 --> 00:31:12,200
These are some of the sleepless nights I had in my late teens, early twenties.

427
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,880
And some of the, you know, I'm going to use the word regret.

428
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,840
And I don't mean that to imply that I live my life with a lot of regrets.

429
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:27,320
I think I'm privileged to not have this laundry list of regrets in my life.

430
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:32,440
But in the absence of another word, things I wish I had done differently is some of the

431
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:41,520
harm I brought to people I cared about then and I care about now due to my inability,

432
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,800
whether internal or external projected on me to of living authentically.

433
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,800
People I hurt in my life.

434
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:49,800
Yeah.

435
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:50,800
Yeah.

436
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:51,800
Yeah.

437
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:52,800
I think we've.

438
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:53,800
It's quite a.

439
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:54,800
Yeah.

440
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:55,800
We've met.

441
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,480
We've met some of the goals of this podcast.

442
00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,480
Yeah.

443
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:05,120
And I think we're sharing some truth in our, you know, from our perspectives, our experiences,

444
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,080
hopefully inspiring some conversations, hopefully giving folks some permission to have some

445
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,000
of these conversations as much with themselves as with other people.

446
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,000
And let's call it a day.

447
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,000
Totally.

448
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,960
Thank you guys so much for listening.

449
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:29,040
I hope that this cultivates an audience and feel free to like reach out to me or Chris.

450
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,040
100%.

451
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,920
And thank you, Sorin, for your willingness to have this conversation, for being who you

452
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,080
are and for just sitting in this space with me.

453
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,160
Well, I wouldn't have a platform without you.

454
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,160
So I'm happy.

455
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,160
Yeah.

456
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,200
I'm happy to give you that platform.

457
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:45,200
So thanks all.

458
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,320
This has been Inspired Insights podcast with Chris McLaughlin and Sorin Peterson.

459
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:50,320
And we'll see you next time.

460
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,320
Indeed.

461
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,320
Bye.

462
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,640
The Inspired Insights podcast has been brought to you by Inspired Consulting Group, LLC, edited

463
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:05,520
and produced by Amanda Seidel, music by Dheera Kurta, copyright 2024, all rights reserved.