Soren! Hi! Welcome back! I'm so glad that we got into this because I think it's so
interesting how closely the educational system of a culture, country, or a
community, how closely it mirrors and parallels the cultural model of that
community. Right? So I'm glad we're talking about this as well and I, you are
very well traveled and what folks might not know about you is you and your
family have traveled internationally from a very early age and you've been
to some amazing countries. You're heading in a little bit of time to some more
amazing countries and we'll talk more about that in a little bit too, but you
do, you have a perspective of when Soren travels, Soren's traveling through one of
the lenses of a 17 year old high school student and so what you might be
picking up on in the countries that you go to, like when I travel it's, it's, let's
talk about the food, let's talk about the culture, let's talk about what people do
for fun or for recreation in those countries. That's a lens you're looking
through as well and you can't help but not look at these countries through the
lens of a student. So what's some of the takeaways that you've learned as you've
traveled this globe? Um, broadly looking at education or just overall. Let's start
with the education piece. Um, so I am looking at exclusively schools abroad
right now. I really don't want to go to college in the United States. So I'm
looking at like the UK area, primarily because they speak English, but it will
still be a different cultural experience and it'll get me closer to a lot of the
places that I want to visit more often, those being mainland Europe. But like
when we were in Portugal most recently, we visited a college there and it was
kind of shocking how similar it was to the United States educational facilities.
Yeah, in what ways? Um, just the atmosphere of the college. Like it reminded me really
strongly of some of the colleges that we visited in Florida, like University of
Florida and Gainesville. I don't know if I said the right, is it, I think it's
University of Florida. Um, is paralleled that for me a lot because it's a very
like in Portugal, we visited the University of Lisbon and it was a really
open atmosphere. Uh, there were kids everywhere. Uh, obviously it was a
gorgeous day out. Um, and even like the architectural style mirrored it really
closely for me. Yeah. Um, did you have the opportunity to interact with any of
the students there as part of your tour? Uh, we didn't go on proper tour. We were
just walking around the campus. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I actually, I, I think I get
like more anxious around kids that are closer to my age. So I was having like a
little panic moment. Yeah. Yeah. I, cause I think part of it is like, I think
it's my fear of change wrapped up in like just being thrown into a new
environment. But I had to take a second when I got there to just like calm down
and acclimate because, um, I don't know, I just get very flustered.
Well, and that, uh, you don't get much more real than being in person at the
University of Lisbon, thousands of miles away from life and everything, you know,
it's a year away. Like, that's real. That's coming. And I know in talking with
your parents about preparing you for this coming trip to the UK and, and to
places you've toured and been to before, it's making it really real for them too.
Yeah, it's, it's like, it's scary, but also really exciting. Like I have lived
my entire life quite sheltered, like in small town Maine. Yeah. Uh, and even
though I've been exposed culturally, uh, and like in reality a lot more than the
vast majority of people that come from my area, which is a result of my
privilege, of course. Um, I still like, when I'm visiting these countries, it's
through the lens of privilege, right? We stay at nice hotels. I feel like to some
extent we try to get the real experience when we go to places. Uh, and like
actually China, I feel like we got a fairly real experience simply because
they don't have that large of a tourist, uh, tourism industry. So you can like
stay isolated in a bubble. This was like, we were just in Beijing.
Yeah. I think that's something that your parents are really intentional about
though. But there, when you all travel as a family, it's about, um, it's about
traveling as a family and experiencing things together. And you're not
necessarily looking for five star dining. You want to eat where the people of that
country eat and you want to be in the places and, uh, that those folks travel
to. And you love the architecture and the history and the, the, um, culture of
the places you're visiting. I think other family members, your brother
appreciates that, but it's also maybe looking for some other things. Like I
know it was really important for both your dad and your brother to find a
swimming pool, keep that exercise and keep that sport stuff going. And that
was an opportunity for you and your mom to go sightseeing.
Yeah. We like, I love, love, love museums. Yeah. And I love walking the streets
and just examining the buildings. I really, when I'm in a foreign country, I
love people watching because examining the mannerisms of other cultures is so
interesting. And like it serves to denormalize, um, the like American
cultural model, which I've grown up in as like the standard basic, right? Like
experiencing these other things sort of takes me off of the pedestal that comes
as a result of immersion in American culture and allows me to, uh, sort of
value other cultures to the same extent. Like I see it a lot with, um, other
people that live in our country. Um,
from, from other, like who are staying here or students here from other
countries?
Uh, no, no, no. Like, uh, like American citizens. Yeah. Yeah. That we value our
culture, uh, over the cultures of others. Of course we do. When it's like, it's
arbitrary, right? There's nothing that makes us distinctly good. Uh, I think
that we have a lot of assets that are super important and valuable. Um, and we
place emphasis on some really important things, but also like looking down on
other cultures simply because they aren't close to ours seems so foolish.
And it's like, it's arbitrary judgment, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
As both a social worker and as a diversity, equity, inclusion, and
belonging consultant in some of my professional worlds, that, that, uh,
American centric self-centered view of our country and our ways and our world
is all about bias.
I totally agree. And like, that's such a strong tendency of humans. Like we have
evolved for tribalism, which is what makes us so, um, I think vulnerable to
like nationalism and mob mentality, right? Which tribalism is really important
because it allows for us to foster a community and create an identity for
ourselves, but also you last podcast were like harped on balance so much.
And it is a balance.
Yeah.
Well, I don't, I don't mean to make you seem like, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but balance is really important.
Like any, uh, pride needs to be taken in small doses, right?
Right.
Right. I think we need to, I try to, at least every time I have an experience,
attempt to step back from myself, step back from the person that I've just
interacted with and attempt to like analyze and dissect, uh, appreciate
what's just happened.
Yeah.
I think that for me is balance and you have this unique ability to do that.
I respect that in you.
I, for me, the balance is you can hold multiple things at the same time.
You can have pride in your town, your community, your state, your country,
and appreciate somebody else's culture and somebody else's experience.
What they're not mutually exclusive.
One doesn't take away from the other balance for me is the ability to hold
two things at the same time that on the surface might appear contradictory.
Well, I totally agree.
Like the, the nature of humanity is contradiction, right?
Right.
Like every human is a ball of conflicting emotions, thoughts,
ideologies, experiences, and to be human is to bring all of these things
together into a unified individual.
Uh, right.
Like, uh, Hegel, actually a German philosopher from the 19th century, uh,
was really, uh, engaged with this idea of conflict and, uh, contradiction,
um, and hypocrisy, uh, in humanity.
But I think hypocrisy puts a very, um, negative around, um, just exactly
around, um, just existing and ebbing and flowing.
Like, I think me as an individual, I, I've moved away from this a lot,
but like, I used to create an idea of myself and then need to adhere to that.
Yeah.
Right.
When I feel like I can adhere to whatever I want to, I don't even
have to adhere to anything.
I'm just an individual and I choose based on what I feel is best in the moment
rather than, uh, what I feel most, uh, closely coincides with an idea that I have.
Right.
Something you're interested in or passionate about.
Yeah.
Which kind of brings me back to this, um, this conversation about traveling
and experiencing other cultures and other countries and, and the appreciation
that you bring to the difference.
And as you mentioned about the university in Portugal, the similarities
and being, being able to kind of be in awe of, wow, there's a lot like
what I'm used to back home.
I totally agree.
Like, um, we oftentimes when like looking at other cultures or communities,
emphasize the differences, but I think it's so important to remember every
human is ultimately driven by pretty similar things.
Right.
We all want to be accepted.
We all want to be loved.
We all want to be like happy and healthy.
We all want the people that we love to succeed.
Right.
Uh, so like empathy is really important in attempting to reinforce that idea.
Like, um, even in China, which we see as like something so foreign, I found
myself really enjoying a lot of the locals there, like people would come
up and take pictures with me and my brother, cause we were white and a lot
of the tourists in Beijing had never seen white people.
Oh, interesting.
Uh, but like every interaction I had there was just really pleasant and enjoyable.
And we like, we vilify entire, uh, countries and their citizens just because
they have a, an authoritarian government.
That's different.
Yeah.
That's different from ours.
Um, and it's important to like, we cannot attach people as individuals to the
organizations which they live under or live within, right?
Right.
Yeah.
Guilty by association isn't always the best way to look at the world.
Yeah.
And I, it can create a really like jaded perspective, like my, uh, mother,
which I understand like out of rage and feeling productive of me has a tendency
to like vilify individuals with ideas, different members, and obviously
a lot of these ideas are hateful and really unpleasant, but they're
motivated by ignorance and like, I actually really enjoy engaging, um,
with people that I don't necessarily agree with.
Uh, and I have not been exposed to, like, I recently got really
interested in theology and I've been going to, um, the Bible study club
before school, uh, at our school.
And I love the kids that run it and it's really fun and really interesting.
And the kids that run it have gotten hate for like their endorsement of
Christianity because they are devout Christian.
These people are really good people and I love being around them.
Right.
And they're motivated by like kindness, compassion, and empathy.
Well, again, guilty by association is a, is a unfortunate lens to view the world.
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Like people who are in an advantaged position don't realize that they're
really experiencing things in a different or perhaps better way than
than those who aren't, uh, privileged because that's just what they've
lived their life like.
Like I have lived in a very well off, not very well off.
I would say fairly well off family in a super sheltered world in a rural,
very wealthy, uh, country.
Right.
Uh, so although I try to have empathy, I don't have the experience base to
really actually engage with a lot of, uh, people, um, and empathize with
their experience truly, because you, I think you need some shared amount of
experience in order to engage with empathy.
And all I can have is sympathy and try to cultivate an understanding for that.
Yeah.
You know, I'm going to, uh, I'm going to challenge you a little bit because I, I
don't think you have to have world according to Chris.
I don't think you have to have experience with that person's, um, what
they are going through for you to have empathy.
I think you is knowing you, like I do, you can appreciate the perspective
and anticipate and learn from that person, what they might be experiencing
or what they may have felt when they were going through that tough time
without having necessarily having gone through that time.
Like if you had a friend, I don't even know if this is true or not, but you
might have a friend who, um, their house burns down and they've lost everything.
Yeah.
That's never happened to you, but you could appreciate what that might
feel like to lose everything.
It won't be exact, but you, you have the ability to access what that might feel
like to be able to offer support, love, friendship, compassion, and empathy.
Well, sorry, let me rephrase what I said, because I totally agree with you.
Empathy is an emotional experience and emotions are universal.
Thus making empathy universal by the transit of property.
Sorry.
Um, more what I was attempting to say, uh, which I don't know if you would agree with.
I think that it's difficult.
Like it's hard to talk with somebody as though you're like equals without making
them feel un-listened to when you're coming from a place of privilege.
Like I was more saying when you're engaging with people who have had
different life experiences from you.
Uh, it's important to listen rather than talk over saying, right.
It's I, I've just, I've had such a similar experience to you, right?
Right.
Like you don't want to like, it's not about this comparison of, oh, my house
is burned down too, let me tell you about it while you're in this place of
pain and vulnerability.
Well, I think that like, I see this a lot with younger high school kids.
And I did this too, like there's a lot of like almost trauma competition, right?
Like kids when they're in a bad position, want to be in like the worst position.
I did this a lot.
Like I'd see my friends doing horribly and doing like really awful things.
And I'd be like, Oh yeah, I can do much better than that.
Yeah.
Like, and that was a big thing with like self harm, especially in online
communities that I was a part of.
It was so competitive, which like, I think parents and a lot of people who haven't
been engaged in that a lot can't even fathom because you're like competing
to destroy yourself.
Yeah.
You and I have talked about this before several occasions that I think this
is an element of youth culture.
And unfortunately you've shared with me that from your perspective, this
is also an element of queer youth culture.
That, and you know, it's things that we've already referenced in our time
together here in the studio, this, this whole concept of, I don't see myself
as worthy, I don't see myself as deserving of a future.
And so I'm going to treat my body like shit in every sense of the word inside
and out, because I don't even see myself being here 10 years from now.
We talked about that last time a little bit.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know if I mentioned like the homework example last time.
I think I did.
I think you did.
Yeah.
Um, where it's like just a reckless abandon for one's own safety or health,
because like, why would I protect something like I'm not going to be
able to cash in in the future?
That's right.
Yeah.
And it's like, it's nihilism.
Like kids nowadays, and I see this a lot from engaging in like modern media
produced by a lot of people in my generation.
Like we're not going to be able to buy a house.
So why even try to get on a stable financial floating?
Yeah.
You know, what I think is so fascinating about that too, Sorin, is that, you
know, you're talking about this from the, from a high school student perspective.
As somebody who's again, looking down the gun at 50 years old, I think
about retirement, like the other side of the age continuum.
And many of the queer adults that I've worked with or know from a more
personal dynamic, we talk about this a lot that even as an adult, when a,
when a queer person doesn't see themselves as worthy or deserving of a
future, the idea of a retirement account, the idea of a bank account, the idea of
purchasing property or investing in something doesn't even factor in,
because I'm not going to be around to cash in on it literally or metaphorically.
So why bother?
Yeah.
I think that like, obviously it's not going to be a Scrooge and like hoard
things for a future date that's never going to come.
And it's really important to live your life with some reckless abandon.
I think that I'm kind of a pro at living my life with reckless abandon.
Yeah.
You've got that down.
Yeah.
I'm working on it, but yeah, yeah.
Obviously it's important to have fun now, but also it's important to have fun in
the future.
Balance.
Yeah.
Maintain that.
But it comes back to this, for me, this idea that self-worth, the ability to
project forward, the ability to see one as worthy enough as deserving of that
future.
So my motivation of putting the delay gratification of putting money in a
retirement account every two weeks for decades, when I may not see myself as
living that long anyway, so why bother?
Yeah.
And like, I have several friends that just like don't engage with school
because why?
Performing well in high school, they see as so unnecessary and so unimportant.
Yeah.
So they're just fine with cruising by with a D. As long as they get that
diploma, then their life starts.
It's an end to them.
Yeah, yeah.
It means whatever.
Or it means whatever.
Yeah, yeah.
When like, I think, and this is like sort of sham philosophy in my eyes,
like life is a journey.
And if you don't savor the journey instead just valuing the endpoint, once
you get to the endpoint, it's not going to feel pleasurable.
Yeah, it's about the process.
It's not going to be an enjoyable experience.
Yeah.
And when you and I were talking about this podcast for months now, that was
one of sort of the underlying themes we wanted to explore is that as humans,
our best days are still ahead.
We are all works in progress.
We have yet to even know our true final potential because that might be
light years away from us today.
So that balance of I need to be thinking a little future focused while also
making sure I'm living a little bit of my life for the present day is an
important part of the human experience.
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partnering with LGBTQ plus communities.
That these are concepts that whether in 1987 or 2024, this is the stuff that
people are managing.
Yeah, like I think a lot of what we're getting, it's human experience and
human experience is like we said with the little empathy spiel, it's universal.
Right.
And like all of these things are consistent themes in the lives of
everyday individuals.
And recognizing these allows for a more holistic, I guess, experience of
humanity and engagement with our own emotions.
When you when one is open to going there, like you and I know a lot of folks
who regardless of political ideology or that, you know, those dynamics, there
are folks who are either unable or unwilling in this very moment to engage
in empathy response with somebody who has a life that's different from them.
And we could, you know, as a clinical social worker, I can give a whole lot
of reasons, some diagnostics, some not of why that person might struggle with
their ability to engage in empathy in that moment, regardless of why it's real.
And so part of what you and I hope to achieve in these conversations and our
future conversations is maybe like knocking on that door a little bit more
to help to help make some of this more accessible to people to have these
conversations, to go actively seek out someone with an experience that is
different than yours.
However, you define that to learn to evolve and to grow as a human.
I totally agree.
And what you were just saying just reminded me it's not always other people
that we need to get in touch with and empathize with.
It's ourselves like a huge, huge, huge asset for me with my recovery was
learning to engage with myself and empathize for myself again.
Yeah.
Because not only had I disconnected myself from the emotions of others or
attempted to, I spent so much time attempting to disconnect myself from my
own emotions and my own experiences.
And I don't know if this is like unique to a more trauma related mental illness,
but like I needed to relearn to empathize for myself or with myself
because I vilified myself.
I refuse to engage with the past experiences which were tearing me apart
inside because even like I just wouldn't let myself try to understand the
emotions that I was having, try to like engage with the root cause of these
things.
That's right.
And like it's really important to try to understand other people, but
something that can help us try to understand other people is getting a
better understanding of ourselves.
Yeah.
And making that time to do that.
Like it doesn't come natural to most.
And you know, in your own experience, what you've talked about is that it
unfortunately took some tough times, some horrible stuff to bring you to
where you're at today.
I have to just ask the question, like how do we inspire young people to go
there with themselves in the absence of tough stuff having to happen?
I don't know if I'm smart enough to answer that question.
Well, I like that's such a difficult and uniquely individual thing.
Right.
Like for me, it took a shock to get me to even like try to start recovering.
Yeah.
Try to start engaging in these things.
And it was a very, like, it was very sudden for me with disclosing the like
immediate change that I felt with myself and those around me and the decisions
that I was trying to engage with.
But like, it was a shock.
Like I had attempted to end my own life multiple times in like violent ways on
several occasions.
To avoid the process, the very process of knowing oneself and exploring
oneself, which is like the ultimate definition of a defense mechanism.
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Fascinates.
Yeah.
And I am, it's so complex.
And my like primary desire in my lifetime is to attempt to unravel the complexity
that is human experience from a like standardized metric.
Yeah.
Which obviously I, as this is something that I have a tendency to do, I really
want to turn things into black and white so that I can work with them logically.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like humanity is alias and just full of gray.
Yeah.
Which is the part about it I love.
Yeah, yeah.
And I try to like, I think, I try to like, I try to like, I try to like,
attempt to create black and white so that I can better understand it,
which is a contrast between us.
And I think aids in our discussions.
Yeah, it does.
And what's fascinating to me about that statement is you are the most gray individual I know.
Like you live, your life is defined.
Who you are in every sense of the word is the middle, you know, not this refusal of
a binary system, right?
Yeah.
And so it's fascinating to me that your tendency or preference is to try to
compartmentalize something into either this or that so you can analyze and study it when
that is the antithesis of who you are at your core.
Well, I think it's interesting you say that because I think that the binaries that our
current culture and society emphasizes aren't binaries, they're arbitrary boxes put over
gray splotches.
Yeah, okay.
Right. So I, although I do strongly reject the like standardized model that our society
uses to attempt to compartmentalize things and put them into black and white,
I think that that system is arbitrary and I try to find my own black and white.
Oh, I see.
So I like...
It's your definition of the binary.
Today's episode has been brought to you by the Inspired Ally Certificate Program for Educators
looking to better partner with LGBT plus youth and their families.
I think we've...
It's quite an intense conversation.
Yeah, we've met some of the goals of this podcast.
Yeah.
Of sharing some truth from our perspectives, our experiences,
hopefully inspiring some conversations, hopefully giving folks some permission to have
some of these conversations as much with themselves as with other people.
And let's call it a day.
Totally. Thank you guys so much for listening.
I hope that this cultivates an audience and feel free to reach out to me or Chris.
100%.
Thank you, Sorin, for your willingness to have this conversation, for being who you are,
and for just sitting in this space with me.
Well, I wouldn't have a platform without you, so...
I'm happy for that.
I'm happy to give you that platform.
So thanks, all.
This has been Inspired Insights Podcast with Chris McLaughlin.
And Sorin Peterson.
And we'll see you next time.
Indeed. Bye.
The Inspired Insights Podcast has been brought to you by Inspired Consulting Group LLC.
Edited and produced by Amanda Seidel.
Music by Derek Herter.
Copyright 2024.
All rights reserved.