I'm back.
It's so exciting.
I didn't think that this was going to be happening.
You know what?
It almost didn't.
Yeah, that's true.
We'll talk more about that.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Welcome back.
I'm so excited to join you back in the podcast studio for another episode of Inspired Insights.
Yes.
I think that after our first episode, we're ready to really get running with it.
I do too.
And I feel like we got some really good feedback from friends and family.
Listeners and viewers are going to see more angles.
We've got three recording devices happening right now.
We've got a recording device actually happening right now.
So I'm ready.
I'm ready.
How are you feeling?
I'm feeling really spectacular today.
I just came off of eight hours of sleep, first time this week.
Woo woo.
Nice.
And we got set up by our lead producer, Amanda Seidel.
Yeah.
She hooked us up today.
Yeah.
And we're flying on the, I guess, logistics of me, which is subpar.
Yeah.
We'll talk about that.
We'll definitely talk about that.
How was the week?
My week was, I'd say interesting.
We're really gearing up for AP test season.
And I got my SAT score back, which it was fine.
I got a 1350.
That's a better than fine definition.
So it was bad.
My calculator died halfway through the math section.
And I had to use the provided calculator.
It was awful.
But I think, although it's a good score, I have felt really bad about it.
I keep ruminating on it.
Oh, really?
Because just everybody in my class is doing at my level or better.
My cousin got a far better score than me.
Yeah.
So for the transparency, vulnerability, and validation, was this the second time you took
this?
No, first time.
This is your only first time?
Yeah.
My second SAT score was about 200 points lower than your first time score.
Well, it was a different format back then, right?
What was the atmosphere around testing in your high school situation?
So that's a great question.
So I feel like I was in the high school courses that I were in.
Was in, we're in.
Clearly why my SAT scores maybe not as great.
But I was in those AP.
I think what you're referring to AP, back in my day, they were thought of as college
prep, that kind of stuff.
So I had all those kids in my classes.
And I remember them talking about 12-somethings and 13-somethings.
And math has never, still isn't, was never and has never been my strong point.
In fact, I remember in high school, my brother is two grades.
He's a year and a half younger than me, but two grades below me.
And I was in my junior and senior year in high school was in his math class.
Two full grades below.
Every other course I was in that crowd of kids, except for math.
So I knew going into SATs that my math was going to be a tough, tough spot.
But to answer your question, I remember there being a lot of just desks and chairs and a
couple, I guess they would call them proctors, a couple faculty of the school kind of hanging
around.
I remember pressure was high.
I remember didn't quite know what to expect.
And I remember leaving with this mixture of relief and like, there goes my college aspiration.
Well, nowadays, not a lot of emphasis, at least from colleges, is like placed on SATs
or standardized testing overall.
But I think there's more of an atmosphere around it.
Obviously, I don't have the experience of being in high school back in like the 90s,
early 2000s.
The 1890s.
Yeah.
1920s.
High schools weren't really around back then.
But I think that the atmosphere that I have gone on in school, which I really enjoy, is
jovial and hyper competitive with the other kids in the classes.
Around the academics.
Yeah, yeah.
Around academics.
I always kind of struggle with that because I am so bad at work completion.
Like so bad at work completion.
And like, you were talking about how you hate mathematics.
I feel like so many really smart kids just can't do math.
And it doesn't detract from their intelligence at all.
But like, I think math is like the only class that they properly created like strata for
in middle school.
Yeah.
So it did like create some, I guess, hierarchy of intellectual ability based around something
that is not necessarily indicative of one's like intelligence.
True aptitude.
Yeah, yeah.
True aptitude for life success.
Yeah.
Here's the, you know, when I think about the career I have now and sort of my pathway over
the last 20 something years of being a social worker.
And there's a very established stereotype about social workers go into social work because
we can't do math.
Like we are scared of math.
But what I've realized in across my career is the type of math that's been front and
center is not the math that I was doing in high school.
Yeah.
Or even in college for that matter.
Like the math that I needed for my career, like if I could go back in time, I would have
taken the quote unquote business classes to budget and to be able to set some of those
financial goals to track progress.
Some of the metrics that go into some of that, again, quoting business math that for some
terrible reason, you know, 30 ish years ago was seen as a step below the AP or the college
level math.
And as I reflect on it now, and we talk about this all the time in some of our spy circles,
I wish that I had been given more opportunity to learn how to balance a checkbook, learn
how to create a budget, learn how to figure out percentages.
I didn't need calculus.
I didn't need like advanced.
I don't even know what's above calculus.
I didn't need that.
What I needed was somebody to teach me how to find look at revenues and trend revenues
or expenses over years.
That's what I needed.
Yeah, I totally agree.
Like school, a lot of the like academic emphasis is placed on things that lack utility in like
the modern world.
Right.
Like I think that honestly, for like mathematics, you can exist in society as a layman having
like past eighth grade pre algebra.
And you'll be doing fantastic.
Like actually, this year I'm taking AP statistics.
And I think of the math classes that I've taken, it's one of the more useful ones because
it allows for such a better understanding of like demographics.
And it allows me to interpret scientific articles considerably better.
Because once you know the like statistical method, which scientists are using to derive
a conclusion, it's so much easier to understand, I guess, sort of the processes of experiment.
But I guess that's getting into the weeds of it.
Well, but I think that's an important point.
Like that as you're describing that course, that's something that would have so much utility
for me even today.
I live in this world today of looking at research and looking at studies and looking at trend
lines across different demographics.
And to be able to understand the relationship between those facts and figures would far
exceed the usefulness of what even my middle school and high school math, even my college
math did.
Well, I think like a lot of kids, at least in my classes, like I was talking to, like,
one of my friends in HBC the other day and we were solving matrices.
As you do.
Yeah.
Well, it was like the beginning of the year.
Matrices aren't that hard.
Anyway, sorry.
It's literally just systems of equations.
Anyway, it like has zero utility for anything.
Unless I am a computer attempting to figure out what color a pixel needs to be.
I don't need to use matrices and like we are spending so much time and like the emphasis
that is placed like is primarily placed on these classes that aren't going to be useful
unless you're pursuing a master's or a doctorate in a STEM field.
And like high schools are set up to prepare children for higher education rather than
prepare children for the workforce.
Yes, to prepare some kids for that track.
But to your point, even that preparation, if that's not it is the world according to
Chris here, it's the exception to the rule that somebody who's a sophomore or junior
in high school knows exactly what they're going to be doing for six, eight, ten years.
Oh, I totally agree.
And so not knowing how something's going to be useful.
Like I remember thinking back then that stereotype again of I'm never going to use this shrug.
This is never going to be useful in my practical world.
And sure enough, some of it actually has been.
So let's get like that that stereotype, that trope of it is going to be useful.
You just don't know it yet is there.
But I what I love about this conversation and again, I talk about this and you referenced
this relationship between standardized testing and preparing one for college or or actually
speaking to one's readiness to go to college.
And there is just so much debate and discussion across numerous fields right now around is
standardized testing truly assessing one's aptitude, one's intelligence, or is it testing
your ability to answer a multiple choice test and fill in the bubbles on the scoreboard?
Well, I totally agree.
Right.
Like and a lot of colleges have stopped using the SATs as a metric for deciding whether
or not they're going to let students in.
But actually, a lot of colleges are transitioning back to using SATs as a metric after COVID.
Like don't quote me here.
I don't know if this is accurate, but I think MIT transitioned back to using SATs as like
a mandatory metric.
Wow.
And I was talking to my stats teacher the other day and he was like harping on how useful
SATs are to determine whether or not a student's going to succeed in college.
Like he was saying that there's a strong, strong relationship between SAT scores and
average college GPA, which I don't know if that reflects on intelligence or rather whether
or not somebody's willing to put in the work to get a good SAT score.
And maybe this is what I'm about to say is a bit of an unpopular or controversial opinion,
but I truly believe this, that that correlation between one's SAT score and their college
GPA might be about their intelligence, their readiness, or their ability to regurgitate
the information.
Yeah.
Well, like I, this is, this is going to get a little like strong minded, but I always
think that school isn't about like learning things per se.
It's about forcing yourself to go to a place that you don't enjoy being at and work for
eight hours a day, then go home and work more so that you can do that for the rest of your
life.
Right.
I could not agree with you more.
Yeah.
I mean, it's more about the preparing a kid to do something that they don't like for five
days a week for most of their year and getting them ready to do that consistently until they
retire.
Yeah.
I think what you're saying that I'm agreeing with is this idea that school serves a larger
or maybe multiple purposes beyond just reading, writing, arithmetic, that kind of stuff, that
there is a, for lack of a better word, a life skill that goes into preparing a young person
for what the professional world of our country's culture is.
And we live in a country where it's a 40 plus hour week, five days a week, very traditional
like schedule.
And I think there's an element of public education that mirrors what the adult expectation of
so many of us is.
A hundred percent.
Today's episode has been brought to you by the Inspired Ally Certificate Program for
Educators looking to better partner with LGBT youth and their families.
You know, to bring this full circle when we were talking about the purpose of school and
education, remember back then?
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
And in my utopian wish list of our world, that's a piece, that's a function that I wish
public education could take on is in addition to teaching advanced statistics and mathematics
and theology and all those pieces, how do we support schools in embracing a curriculum
of introspection, of helping young people know themselves in an environment that hopefully
is safe and affirming and conducive to whatever that young person discovers in themselves
during this process, it's okay to share it.
I think that schools provide the primary means of like social skill development for most
kids.
And I think I totally agree with you.
They should incorporate a means of internal development and emotional development for
kids, which I don't think that the American education system does a good job at emphasizing
at all.
Yeah.
Well, you can't measure it.
Exactly.
It's hard to measure.
So if you can't measure it, what use is it?
You know, and I'm being facetious obviously, but you know, thinking about standardized
testing, there's no standardized evidence-based test of, hey, Soren, how well do you know
you?
Yeah.
Well, that actually is something that I really want to study the brain from like a chemical
and physical level.
Yeah.
Fascinating.
Yeah.
And it's so complex.
I think like primary desire in my lifetime is to attempt to unravel the complexity that
is human experience from a like standardized metric.
Yeah.
Today's episode has been brought to you by the Inspired Allies Certificate Program, modules
designed to inspire confidence and competence in better partnering with LGBTQ plus communities.
Because it's also bringing me back to this idea of education and it's bringing me back
to the purpose of education systems.
And you know, as you're talking about what fascinates you and what interests you and
what drives passion in you, I was sitting here also thinking that, holy, like the pressure
on schools.
And here I am saying like, schools need to do this and this and this.
And it's not my intent to like lay these edicts of more and more because you and I both know
all too well that in addition to teaching the basics, schools are also supporting the
arts and music and theater and teaching the social skills of what working and living in
the adult world is going to be like and schools are some of our country's largest mental health
systems as well, supporting the emotional wellness needs of kids of all ages as well.
So for the educators in my life out there listening, I just want to apologize.
Like I'm not saying schools doing a terrible job.
I'm dreaming big, which is a part of what you and I both also have in common.
And wouldn't it be great if we could figure out a better balance of this, this, this and
this?
Yeah.
So if kids are going to spend six to eight hours every single day in this environment,
how do we support it to be as useful and supportive as it could be?
I totally agree with that.
And I love, I would say all of the teachers that I interact with on a daily basis.
And I think that a lot of the administrative staff of our school are pretty all right.
It's a systemic constructive criticism rather than an individual.
Yeah, that's so important.
Oh, you said that so much better than I was.
We're not attempting to attack teachers and teachers are trying to do their absolute best
with such limited resources, such limited resources.
In every sense of the word.
Time, personnel, money, materials.
Yeah.
We have given individual teachers very few resources and we are giving them a task which
used to be like literally a village's work.
And we're keeping it on these individuals that like oftentimes nobody has infinite emotional
energy to attempt to create and foster a fantastic environment for the hundreds of students who
go into their class every day.
In an environment where they are so often thought of as public enemy number one.
Like in the environment of gender ideology and wokeness and all of these other criticisms
that a minority, a loud minority, a vocal minority, that's the narrative they're pushing.
And so I love that you said this, you're saying this because it honors that teachers are doing
the best they can with what they have in the moment in an environment where they are so
ridiculed and targeted and attacked for either doing too much or not enough.
Yeah.
Lose, lose.
And you're on the school board.
I am on a school board.
Just watching from the sidelines, some people that come to school board meetings and are
so critical and misinformed and yet so violent and vile in their attacks of individuals.
Like what's your experience with that?
Oh, it's like hashtag if you know, you know, right?
Yeah, Soren.
You know, it is, it's reminiscent, like the current realities for myself and many like
me on in these elected local offices, whether it's school or town or what have you, it's
very reminiscent of how I was describing my childhood to you.
You know, it's this, it's bullying.
It's a, you know, it is a form of bullying.
And I, my heart goes out to the teachers in these communities that are truly being held
hostage or under attack by a very vocal minority who are pushing a narrative for very personal
agendas.
And you know, in my, in my best moments in my social work guru on the mountain moments,
I can take a trauma informed perspective with even those individuals and say, you know,
what has happened to this person or this group of people to act in this way?
What needs are being met?
What past traumas are being explored and, and maybe repeated in this moment.
But to be really candid with you and with our listeners, it's tougher and tougher and
tougher to keep that trauma informed perspective with people who are so intent on hurting somebody
else or groups of somebody else's.
No, I totally agree.
And that's something that I've had like a lot of, I guess, banter about with my mother.
She also has experienced serving on the school board for like six or seven years.
She did a couple times.
My was her heart at my school.
And like, I've talked to her because obviously I sit on the sidelines.
I don't really engage with these people.
But also I try to take like a very trauma informed position.
And like, I don't feel upset or attacked when people are spewing these awful, awful things.
I feel sad almost because like that's sad that that person is so, I guess, ideologically
entrenched in this dogmatic perspective that they feel the need to say these things and
stuff like that.
And I'm not even sorry to interrupt.
I'm not even convinced that all of these folks truly believe.
Some of it is there's this need for attention and fame and fortune and I'm using air quotes
purposely that, you know, that the vocal few have found some notoriety, not just in our
towns and in our state.
This is a national movement at foot of creating, creating chaos, creating mistrust in these
established systems like education to meet other needs.
And it's so I love that you said that because I like talking to my grandfather who watches
news all day.
He is so empathetic and throughout his entire life has devoted himself to charity and very
formative inclusive organizations like CISV.
He put a lot of work in.
Children's International Summer Village.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like an international nonprofit that works on building global friendships.
Student exchanges.
Yeah, yeah, basically.
And he has welcomed into his home many children from all over the world and is such a great
guy.
But then I have conversations with him and he'll go from being so empathetic and kind
and loving and not bigoted to just spewing the punchlines that he hears on for all day.
And I'm like, how do you have such like a kind heart and yet you're so able to say such
hateful damaging things, which like a lot of these people don't realize the negative
impact that they're having.
It speaks to the toxic nature of some of those narratives and messages.
That how like the best pop culture songs, the earworms, these messages, this narrative
finds its way in somebody's unconscious brain and festers and grows.
And the best harmful narratives are the narratives that play on safety.
Nationalism, you know what we talked about earlier.
These messages that create doubt and confusion about your safety, the safety of your loved
ones, who's coming for your jobs, your materials, your goods, your housing, your kids.
And the people on the left are guilty of this as well.
Sure.
Right.
Like I don't mean to specifically touch on people.
And legacy media on the left and on the right is dedicated to pushing division and fear.
And like people on the left are stuck in dogmatic ideology and refuse to step out of it as well.
Equally as guilty.
Totally.
Yeah.
However, those of us on the left, it's easier for us to deny that that is happening because
we tend to feel like we own the moral high ground.
So we can camp out there and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but at least the stuff that we're listening
to isn't fill in the blanks.
No, I totally agree.
And like social issues are super important, but we have social issues have been pushed
so forcefully onto the American public that we refuse to like look at economic disparities,
for example, which is a social issue.
Like I think perhaps a bit conspiracy theory.
It is beneficial for the current, say, fairly corrupt system in place for us as individuals
to fight as individuals and work against each other than working then rather than work with
each other to foster a better environment for everybody.
Right.
So like social divisions and like ideological wars.
Yeah.
Who are they benefiting?
Right.
They're not benefiting us as individuals.
That's right.
And the folks that are benefiting are sitting back watching us as consumers of this stuff
go at it while other agendas are at play.
I don't think that's conspiracy theory.
I think that I think what I know in my adult life is we more folks are getting aware that
this dynamic is happening.
We may not be able to put our finger on it, but we know it's happening yet.
We're falling victim to it over and over again.
Well, it's like I just think of the dumpster fire metaphor.
We're a bunch of trash in a dumpster fire and we're surrounded by fire.
Of course we're going to catch flame, but we are all trash and the man who lit the fire
is standing out getting the warmth from it.
That's right.
Yeah.
I love that analogy.
Right.
Who's lighting the match?
Who's dumping the gasoline?
All of those kind of metaphors.
Like I can see it so clearly in my head.
And yet you asked me about school board experience.
When you are in the middle of that fire and all you see around you is fire and smoke,
you can't see who's on the other side of that ring.
And you're going to catch a flame as well.
And it's about what do you then do to protect yourself from catching on fire?
Maybe you start throwing the trash or diverting the gasoline to those other folks around you
as their survival skill.
Which actually ties back in directly to what we were saying about in schools, kids pushing
or leading focus to other people who are struggling.
I name called other effeminate boys to divert the attention of because I was that effeminate
boy.
And so when the world is on fire, when you deflect that gasoline in another direction
or the flames in another direction, like that's hard to sit with.
Yeah.
And it's a survival skill, right?
Yeah.
I think we've...
Quite a...
Yeah.
We've met some of the goals of this podcast, of sharing some truth from our perspectives,
our experiences, hopefully inspiring some conversations, hopefully giving folks some
permission to have some of these conversations as much with themselves as with other people.
And let's call it a day.
Totally.
Thank you guys so much for listening.
I hope that this cultivates an audience and feel free to reach out to me or Chris.
100%.
Thank you, Soren, for your willingness to have this conversation, for being who you
are and for just sitting in this space with me.
Well, I wouldn't have a platform without you.
So...
I'm happy for that.
Yeah.
I'm happy to give you that platform.
So thanks all.
This has been Inspired Insights podcast with Chris McLaughlin.
And Soren Peterson.
And we'll see you next time.
Indeed.
Bye.
So, this has been Inspired Insights podcast, been brought to you by Inspired Consulting
Group LLC, edited and produced by Amanda Seidel, music by Dira Kurda, copyright 2024, all rights
reserved.