Welcome to the Franciscan Spirit Podcast. It's
great to be with you. There's a line from a John
O'Donohue poem that goes like this. I would love
to live like the river flows, carried by the
surprise of its own unfolding. I have returned
to that quote often over the years and have wondered,
what does it look like to be that free, to be
that present, to let go of the desire for control
in such a way that we have an inerrant trust
In the river's flow. This episode's guest lived
a lifestyle for 50 months that to me really epitomizes
this quote. For four years, Eunice Park lived
an itinerant lifestyle not unlike Francis and
his early followers. Now she's back in one place
and is reflecting on what she's learned. This
episode explores freedom, control, encounter,
self -worth, and how we allow ourselves to be
loved as the river carries us. A little more
about Eunice, and I must say this is one of the
best bios I've ever read on this podcast. In
addition to being a master itinerant, Eunice
Park is a spiritual life coach, retreat facilitator,
multilingual kimchi maker, cultural critic, spiritual
accompanist, cook, writer, crafter, musician,
editor. hot sauce brewer and dinner party comic
above all she is a follower of francis and claire
eunice is a leader and a change agent in the
franciscan world and she has two masters degrees
from the franciscan school of theology as you
can tell from her bio she is a real joy and i
hope that i hope you get as much from this conversation
as i did so without further ado here is eunice
park enjoy Eunice, thanks for joining me. Thanks
for having me. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, can
you begin just by talking about your background
and how you ended up finding yourself in this
wild Franciscan space? Wild, wild space. Is that
a good description of it? Yeah, I think it's
an understatement. Yeah, probably. Well, I had
been in ministry for a number of years already.
I actually got started with ministry quite early
with peer ministry in high school. I had grown
up in the Korean Catholic Church, and much like
ethnic communities around the country, we didn't
really have people that could do youth ministry
or second -generation ministry. And so I just
kind of rolled up my sleeves. went to the diocese
and said, I need training, got my certificate,
and started with youth ministry as a youth. So
I had been in ministry for quite a number of
years already before I went off to do a couple
of masters at the Franciscan School of Theology,
which at the time was in Berkeley. So the wild,
wild world of Berkeley meeting the wild, wild
world of the Franciscans. It was the best of
both worlds. And I was familiar with Berkeley
because I had done my undergrad at UC Berkeley.
And so I was already of the rebellious lifestyle
anyways. I'm sensing this may be a theme in our
conversation. It's a theme in this world of Franciscanism,
and I think that's what makes it great, right?
So I went off and did a couple of masters with
them and then started diving in more, or actually
diving into the Franciscan world. Funny story,
when I was first thinking about doing my theology,
At the time when the Franciscan school was in
Berkeley, it was at a consortium of nine schools.
It was an ecumenical school called the Graduate
Theological Union. And it had three Catholic
schools, the Jesuits and the Dominicans and the
Franciscans, along with six Protestanti. Some
are a little less Protestanti or a little less
mainline Christian schools. But so out of the
three schools, when I first went to look at the
schools, I automatically went to the Jesuit school
because a lot of my adult formation had been
with Jesuit spiritual directors. And so without
thinking, I went to the Jesuit school and Providence
and the Holy Spirit. I did not feel very welcome
at the Jesuit school. And the Franciscan school
were like. We have snacks. We like people. And
so I inadvertently ended up there. And on the
first day of class, I had an 8 a .m. Old Testament
class, if you could imagine. It's Old Testament.
And I'm not a morning person. But the first day
I walked in, I think that first week, I was.
crying in class. I just thought, this is it.
This is where I was supposed to be. What stirred
you? I think overall in that class, not just
the first week, but having learned about the
guilt and shame culture of the Old Testament
that really spoke to my own culture of having
grown up. And I guess what we would call a guilt
and shame culture as well. I'm a first generation
Korean American. My family immigrated when I
was eight. And a lot of that resonates in terms
of what we know about the Old Testament communities
and values and all of that. Hmm. So did you sense
in this class and in the Franciscan space in
particular that there was something of a pathway
to liberation or freedom or peace? I'm not sure
what the right word is there. I love this idea
of liberation and freedom. I think about the
chickens and that chicken run. Freedom! I think
maybe the Franciscan spirituality and Franciscan
theology felt and still feels very much like
a counter to healing what can often be very hurtful
parts of that guilt and shame culture. Not that
it's all bad because there are very, very wonderful
parts of that in terms of community and in terms
of. taking care of each other and those aspects.
But I think there are also aspects that can be
very hurtful. And I think I found my healing,
a lot of my healing through the Franciscan spirituality.
Yeah. So the answer is yes. Yeah. No, I mean,
that's been my journey as well. Yeah, I mean,
I... I went pretty deep into, I guess, for lack
of a better term, what would be described as
like the conservative evangelical world, kind
of non -denominational, or as you said, Protestant
-y Christianity. And yeah, I mean, there were,
I grew up Catholic, but I mean, I learned so
much in that evangelical space. Particularly
when it came to Scripture, it really kind of,
it really stirred me to delve into theology.
And so, like, I have a lot of gratitude for my
journey into that space. But the guilt and the
shame, you know, particularly in its theology
around the crucifixion, around the death of Jesus.
and why that had to happen. Uh, I, yeah, I, I,
I'd go as far as to say that that was not healthy
for me psychologically. Um, and, and it could
just be because of how I internalized it as a
perfectionist too, you know, like I'm, I'm already
hard on myself. I don't need a, I don't need
a metaphor of God that is beating the hell out
of me as well. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, when I really stumbled
upon Franciscanism and learning about SCOTUS
and this kind of minority approach, minority
viewpoint of the incarnation and one that contradicted
Anselm, that this was not because of sin. It's
not saying that sin isn't a thing. It's just
saying that that wasn't the... premier motive
for God to send God's Son, that really resonated
with me theologically. And yeah, I relate to
your journey on some levels. Yeah. Yeah. Sin
is a thing. I mean, we don't want to say it's
not a thing. It is a thing. But the idea, especially
this Franciscan theology of, or a Franciscan
theology, that Jesus was always a part of God's
plan of creation. That is so mind -blowing, especially
if you come from a certain other theology or
even for a lot of Catholics. It's mind -blowing,
I think, that out of the goodness of God's heart,
out of the love that God had for us, that Jesus
is always going to be with us. You could just
sit with that for the rest of your life if you
have nothing else. That is enough, you know?
Yeah. Enough. Absolutely. We could go pretty
deep into this if we wanted to, but I will, I'll
spare you and I'll switch gears a little bit.
I am curious. You wrote a really beautiful piece
in St. Anthony Messenger last year about a very
unique journey that you were on. It was a 50
-month journey. Can you take us into that? What
was it? Why? I'm sure our listeners would be
really curious. Why? So when COVID hit, I had
been working at a parish. And like many people
that worked at parishes, I had gotten laid off,
which turned out to be very timely because my
dad was not doing well at the time. And so that
allowed me. time and freedom and space to be
able to help take care of him. He passed in July
of 2021. And I was just physically, emotionally,
spiritually, I was just drained for obvious reasons.
And I had already moved out of the place I was
living in. My stuff was in storage. I had lost
my job. And so I really didn't have things to
time it down. At the moment, in terms of not
being able to go away, I just wanted to get some
rest and kind of rejuvenate. And so I just kind
of packed a bag and went to visit my cousins
up in Seattle. So that was in September of 2021.
And it was great to get away. I mean, I was exhausted,
you could imagine. So I went there and then I
went to visit some other cousins, went to visit
some other friends. And I thought, like, I don't
really have anything that I need to rush back
to. I didn't have a lease on a place. I don't
own, I don't have a mortgage because I work in
ministry and I can't afford that in California.
So I just started going and visiting people.
And before I knew it, it was a matter of a few
months. And it had not been so intentional up
until then. But somewhere along the way, after
the first few months, I thought, oh. maybe this
is a thing. It's a thing. I think I could do
this. And so at that time, it really did become
more intentional. I put my stuff in more permanent
storage and I just set off on this itinerant
life. My wonky life, as I often called it. I
stayed with friends. I lived out of one bag.
mostly because I'm too cheap to pay for baggage
fees on planes. And I moved every three or four
days. Sometimes I would stay a week. Sometimes
that'd be one night. There were a couple of times
when I stayed somewhere for two months. That
was the longest. But most of the time I moved
every few days and I stayed with friends. And
it was 50 months. A lot of my friends are religious,
so I stayed in a lot of convents and friaries
and monasteries and retreat houses with a few
normal, regular lay people thrown in in between.
So I just got off the road in December after,
like you said, after 50 months. And it was, yeah,
it was quite an experience. And I mean, I could
talk about it forever. And I'm still processing
because it's only been a couple of months. Yeah.
Yeah. Take me into it a little bit. Was there
any kind of mapping in this? Like, was there,
were you going cross country? Were you making
your way toward, or was it truly just? Whoever
invites you, you're going to receive that invitation
or like what? This is going to sound wild to
a lot of people or wonky, like you said. I would
say beautifully wonky. But can you take me into
that a little bit? Yeah, there really wasn't
a grand scheme or a grand itinerary. I wrote
at the beginning of my piece the irony of the
different definition between itinerant and itinerancy
in that I didn't really have an itinerary. But
somehow it worked out being an itinerant without
an itinerary. There were some places that I visited
because they were friends that I visited regularly
or tried to visit regularly. Some of the places
that I visited would kind of circle around that
geographical area. Some places were dependent
on if I had meetings or conferences to go to
in certain areas. I would hitch a ride afterwards
with whoever had driven to the conference and
go and stay with them. There were certainly invitations
from people. I didn't go where I wasn't wanted,
I don't think. I mean, maybe people will write
in and tell you that wasn't true. But I do think
most of the time people were well -involved to
invite me. And like I said, I did stay with friends.
You know, like 95 % of the time I was with friends
and good friends that I would normally have either
stayed with or would have stayed with if they
were. Maybe sometimes not in convenient locations.
A lot of these convents are in the middle of
cornfields in a very small town that I had wanted
to visit, but maybe hadn't had a chance because
they're so far from a big airport or near where
I would be going for meetings or whatnot. So
I had a chance to visit everyone. Every one of
my friends that I had wanted to visit, which
is already a huge privilege, I got to visit with
people that I hadn't seen in 20 years. I got
to visit several times with people that I would
normally want to visit, never got to see enough
of. I got to visit with every single person that
I had wanted to at least have serious conversations
about ministry. and vocation. And one of the
most interesting things to come from that, especially
the people that I hadn't seen in a while, people
that I used to do ministry with 20 years ago
when we were in young adult ministry. I've been
in young adult ministry for most of my adult
life. And I used to do a lot more. in a national
setting. And so there used to be my little tribe,
what I call my little tribe of people that did
young adult ministry. We were all young adults
and we were on fire and we were just so, so committed
to the church and to this ministry, to young
adults and to the youth that were coming up into
young adulthood and young adults that were. moving
on into parish life and adulthood, real adulthood
and all of that. So I got to visit with every
single one of those people that I wanted to talk
to. And the sad truth that I learned, which I
had an inkling of, is none of them are in ministry
anymore. And none of them are really in church
anymore. And for good reason. which I can talk
more about, but yeah. So that was a sad sort
of affirmation of, and I think a little microcosm
of, of people in mystery, young adults. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. What having had so many conversations
on the road with. people who like you said had
left ministry i mean what what were some of the
themes or is there a kind of conclusion or theory
you have behind that yeah i mean it's it's not
even a theory it's a reality and it's very simple
is that all of us had been very mistreated abused
um disrespected or not supported in one way or
another across the board. And I mean, I think
we know. We know that that goes on. And very
sad. And I myself have had a lot, so many experiences
of not being supported, not financially supported,
emotionally supported, being yelled at, fought.
Yeah. Just so many terrible experiences. I was
laid off once by email from a parish. I was laid
off once by a postal mail, snail mail, with no
follow -up meeting. I was laid off once with
a severance package that had the wrong job description.
I mean, just so many things. I've had priests
yell at me, scream at me. I've seen priests make
people cry in staff meetings. Just terrible,
terrible things. And yet we continue on because
we have to. Well, that was my next question.
Like, why are you still in ministry having? been
on the road and heard and received these stories
and then having had some of your own personal
experiences too in ministry um that were negative
or scarring or whatever word you want to use
like what what keeps you going why are you still
working in ministry today yeah i a lot of my
friends ask me like how do you still do it um
i think some of it really is um is being an immigrant
i think there's that tenacity of never giving
up and um but i think more so what else am i
going to do this is my vocation this is what
i'm called to do this is what i love um in spite
of it all but also because of it you know i'm
not the only one that's been emotionally abused
um i'm not the only one that's been um and unsupported.
This is all of us, and not just those of us that
do full -time ministry. This is a lot of people
in the pews or no longer in the pews. And I think
when we think about why young adults are not
in the pews and how do we get the youth to continue
on into adulthood in the church, I think we really
have to be. We have to be the ones to offer up
the safe space for them to continue to be there.
I'm not about to leave the house when there's
no safe space for them to be in. Hmm. Hmm. Oh.
Yeah, go ahead. No, and also like, what else
am I going to do? This is my vocation and I love
it. And I'm grateful for it. What other stories
jump out to you from your journey? I mean, 50
months. That's four years. I mean, it's like
you're back in undergrad. I mean, what other
stories jump out? Some really bad food at convents,
eating at 4 .45 p .m. and then being hungry at
8 .30, having to scrounge around secretly in
the kitchen. Just the kinds of, and how lunch
is dinner and dinner is supper, that never gets
old. Just, I think the conversations, I think
just how privileged and unusual this life, yes.
But just how privileged I was in having these
kinds of conversations. You and I are having
these conversations because we're on a podcast.
And we get these conversations with people now
and then, you know, when we go to conferences
or, you know, whatever. But I got to have these
conversations every single day for 50 months.
Unbelievable. And so if I was lacking support.
port before, 50 months of affirmation, I think
that's enough to carry me for the rest of my
life. Being with kindred spirits, being with
people who are also, many have left. But to be
clear, my friends that have left ministry, full
-time ministry, are still doing ministry, just
not in the church context. They're doing amazing
work. And in fact, Many of them are able to do
so much more because they don't have the limitations
of being in a church setting. They're doing amazing,
amazing work out there, mostly with nonprofits
or those kinds of settings. But yeah, so the
conversations I was able to have, the affirmations,
we all still... We're all still on fire in a
different way. We just have different avenues.
But also just being inspired by, because I spent
so much of my time with religious, the way that
they live out their life and how it seems clear
to me as I look forward to turning 60 this year,
just looking back in terms of how we have lived
out our vocations on parallel tracks. Very, very
different, of course, our lives, but at the same
time, very, very similar in living out our vocations.
And now, in a way, because of logistics and the
numbers of religious that are diminishing a bit,
because of logistics, I think we are working
together more lay and religious than before.
But I think it's also a shift in our thinking
as well. There isn't that kind of a dividing
line as much as there was before. And so it's
kind of an exciting time having those conversations
with friends, but also talking about collaborating
and visioning together in a way that, I mean,
we've always done that. My friends and I have
always done that for the last 30. 40 years. But
now it's in a way where there can be some practical
applications to that. A lot of my religious friends
are now in leadership because of our age. So
that's also a shift in being able to have some
more resources and being able to vision as a
congregation as opposed to just singular religious
friends. So those kind of conversations have
been probably. the highlight of this life. In
this first reflection segment, I wanted to pause
because I think it'd be easy to overlook the
direction Eunice just went in this conversation.
On the heels of talking about some of the hurt
she experienced in ministry and why and how she
keeps going, She transitioned to talking about
her 50 months of itinerancy and the depth of
relationship with others that really brought
the trip to life. And I find this movement to
be really inspiring. I, too, take relationships
and my vocation very seriously. So when things
don't go my way or when I feel let down, my tendency
so often is to isolate. Eunice did the opposite.
She went on a 50 -month journey that was built
around relationships. And not only that, but
relationships in ministry. Now, everyone has
their own way of healing, but I find this to
be such a beautiful trajectory that Eunice really
models for us through her own lived experience.
When people let you down, you go deeper into
the relationships that are most important to
you. When you experience turmoil in your vocation,
in your calling, in that which is most important
to you or brings you life, you go deeper into
the life -giving aspects of it. Sometimes my
periods of isolation are fruitful and necessary
for healing, but if I'm honest with myself, many
of the extended periods of isolation are driven
by fear and hurt. For me, it's easier to write
off relationships and isolate. rather than risk
my heart again. I'd rather live in my head than
risk sharing what's in it and possibly be rejected
again. But who wants to be driven by fear rather
than love? As 1 John 4 .18 says, there is no
fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment. It's
so easy to get set in our own ways, and that
doesn't just mean our routines or our lifestyles.
I think that also includes our patterns of the
heart and mind that may not always take us to
an integrative place, a place that is driven
by love rather than fear. Eunice's wild 50 months
of itinerancy is a reminder to me that doing
the unexpected, risky, crazy thing that interrupts
these patterns that do not always serve me, is
oftentimes the most healing thing. Now back to
the conversation. And then I think just kind
of looking at myself from an outside perspective,
just being a little bit surprised, but not surprised,
but surprised at my own resiliency. Living out
of a bag. I wore like four outfits for four years.
I slept in a lot of bad convent beds. Sorry,
convents. But sometimes they give you the newest
bed and it's 10 years old. Not knowing if the
desk has an outlet for me to do my Zoom meeting,
you know, in the rickety chair. And again, the
bed. But. Just my own resiliency and, again,
tenacity in all of that. None of that bothered
me, you know, in the way that it would have if
I was only visiting for a week. That would have
really, really bothered me a lot. Every one of
those things. But just being in the spirit of
openness, I think. Unbeknownst to me, I think.
The way that I opened myself up, I mean, I was
certainly aware of some of it, but I think I
really, I think still am processing just how
open I became and how going along with the openness,
how free I became and not even realizing how
free I could be. After my father passed, I really
had no real tethers to at least this geographical
place. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area.
I went through elementary, middle, high school
and college and grad school here. So I'm very
much tied to this place. But after my father
passed and I hit the road, I think I really needed
that kind of physical freedom to understand my
own spiritual and emotional freedom. I didn't
have the tethers that were given to me by society,
and now I was free to choose the tethers, you
know. This idea of, you know, in Scripture when
we, at least this is the Scripture that I learned,
when the Israelites are freed from bondage in
Egypt, they're freed from something, but they
are freed for something. They're freed from slavery,
but they are freed for... a tetheredness to God.
And so we choose, we can choose, we have the
freedom in our faith to, and in our lives to
choose who and what we want to be tethered to,
whatever, to bind ourselves to. And that kind
of binding is not necessarily bad. And so I had
to, I think, go on this weird wonky life to understand
how free I was. And to know that I had this complete
freedom to choose what I am tied to. And why
do I continue to do this ministerial work is
what I choose to do. It's what I choose to be
bound to. And I have been given such a privileged
life. Even just these last four years, like who
gets that? Who gets to spend every single day
with friends? Who gets to just... float around
to wherever the wind blows and not have any ties
to any responsibilities, really. I didn't have
to take out the garbage or, you know, vacuum
the house for 50 months. So those kind of freedoms,
yeah. But the funny thing, the kind of ironic
thing is, as I was learning about my own resiliency
and tenacity and the freedom and all of that,
as I was learning about myself, I was also learning
about, you know, religious and just people in
general around the country. And one of the funniest,
I think, most ironic aspects of talking about
this life when I was on the road, I would give
talks here and there. whatever. The most dramatic
reactions I got from people were from religious
women in particular, who would say, oh my gosh,
I could never live without my stability and my
things and knowing where I was going to sleep.
And I could never do what you're doing. And I
thought, so. ironic because you're the one that
have taken the vows like i could never take those
vows and so just understanding the humanity and
the real um the realness of of what's behind
our lives the the actual lived experiences of
those vows and the lived experiences of our lifestyle
and our daily choices, that it's not so black
and white. And I think part of it is my age.
Part of it was pandemic. I think we all learned
a lot from pandemic as well. But just really
seeing the reality of these things that we talk
about, the lived realities of these words that
we use, vows. concepts, even around the concept
of poverty. You know, a lot of times I live,
even before my jump to itinerancy, I lived a
life of voluntary simplicity. I mean, I didn't
live in abject poverty by any means or even a
financial poverty, but I lived a very simple
life and that was what I chose. Took transit
when I could. I walked when I could. So for a
very, very long time, I had heard from people
around me, even friends, like, oh, I don't know
how you live like that. You're so unusual. And,
you know, how do you live? What are you going
to do about retirement? Like, that was the number
one question. Like, how are you going to take
care of yourself in retirement? I said, you know,
it'll be fine. It'll be okay. You don't need
to worry so much. I have heard a lot about voluntary
poverty, whatever that means. And it always revolved
around money. It always revolved around finances.
But in this itinerant life that I lived, I began
to think a lot more about other kinds of poverty,
and in particular, poverty of control. You know,
making myself open to... What might come even
if I wasn't, quote unquote, in control? I mean,
are we ever in control anyway? Right. But letting
go of not knowing every single aspect of my life,
how much exactly down to the penny is my paycheck
going to be, you know, next week? And for half
of my attendance, I wasn't even working. I worked
full time remotely for half of it. And then the
other half, I wasn't working at all. And so.
I was just living. And so poverty of control
in terms of finances, but also where am I going
to be next week? Is someone going to offer me
hospitality, you know, three weeks from now?
And then looking back and seeing that for 50
months, for every single day, I had hospitality.
I spent one night in an airport lounge and that
was not because I didn't have hospitality. It's
because the flight was canceled. But having a
place to sleep, having people offer meals, having
people drive me to the train station and the
airport and meeting me in places for 50 months,
that is something. I have a lot of friends and
I'm very, very... privileged and blessed in that
way but also I think this is how people are but
I never let them be hospitable I never let them
give I didn't give them the opportunity to be
giving because I was trying to control taking
care of myself and then I opened it up for other
people to care for me and then it goes back to
our theology of being worthy to be taken care
of yeah well you're you're going the direction
i kind of hoped we would go and because i'm sure
a lot of people listening they're maybe thinking
in the back of their mind i do not have the time
or luxury or you know, family kind of flexibility
to go on the road in this itinerant lifestyle
for 50 months. However, you're naming all these
different kind of spiritual postures and principles
that you learned from that journey that I think
everyone listening can perhaps take into their
own life. I mean, you mentioned that spiritual
posture of openness. I love what you said about
voluntary poverty and poverty of control. I mean,
in this country, I see that one being a big one.
And just we, and you said it so well, I mean,
it's so weird how desperately I try to control
things. And yet, the weirder thing would be for
everything in my life to fall into place exactly
the way I want it to like that would be the that
would be the weird thing is if everything went
linearly the way I want it to um so already like
we're kind of flipping the paradigm and saying
like well no life itself is um life itself is
it's it's non -linear Oh, it's nonlinear, right.
Yeah. And that sense to control, that desire
to control is certainly human. However, I think
there's a real truth in the fact that there's
a spiritual task in not becoming so wrapped up
in that. Am I tracking with you? Yeah, absolutely.
Okay. And the idea that life is this spiral,
right? Like it's circular, but it's not quite
circular in that you come to a much... much deeper
place, right? Even though the vantage point,
it looks exactly like where you are. So in my
case, it's literally, I'm back in the same city
that I grew up in. I just landed, like I said,
in December and I'm house sitting for some friends.
So I'm here for maybe a year or two. I don't
know, but it's the city where I grew up. And
so, but I haven't lived here since high school.
So I'm back in the vantage point. Looks exactly
the same. I'm literally across the street from
one of the houses I lived in. And yet, of course,
I'm not the same person because I'm not in high
school, but also I'm not the same person I was
four years ago when I left. But at the same time,
it took me about maybe two weeks to be back here
to get back into my exact same routine of like.
Well, I have to have these different forks for
different things that I eat. And I have to have
these different chairs for this different thing.
And my Wi -Fi is not fast. Like, I lived out
of a bag for four years. And it's almost like,
when did that happen? I don't remember that because
I'm back and my life needs to be very, very comfortable.
I need to have everything controlled. I have
to, I think it's going to be my journey for the
next year or this year, the year of the fire
horse, to remind myself that I am a little bit
deeper in my spiral. I think I just need to get
acclimated. It's a little jarring and I'm a little
bit discombobulated being back. So I think I
need to sort of, what's the word when you calibrate
it? That's it. It's going to take me a little
bit of time to calibrate being back. The direction
Eunice went with Franciscan poverty is one worth
exploring here in this second reflection segment.
One aspect of Franciscan poverty, she says, is
a poverty of control. This is so important today,
I think, because one could argue that control
is the premier idol in our 21st century way of
life. Control of our schedules, control of our
finances, control of our careers, control of
our children, our friends, our loved ones. In
other words, who we want them to become, which
oftentimes, if we're honest. are extensions or
reflections of ourselves. As Thomas Merton wrote,
the beginning of love is the will to let those
we love to be perfectly themselves. The resolution
not to twist them to fit our own image. Worry
itself often undermines that desire for control,
I think. We seek more control, it seems, as if
thinking it will cure our worry. We spend so
much energy, as William Paul Young, author of
The Shack, talks about. We spend so much energy
future tripping. And so we devote our time and
energy fooling ourselves into thinking that we
are the ones steering the river. In reality,
as Richard Rohr says, we're just pushing the
river rather than entering or surrendering to
its flow. And it's not that control is always
bad. I do think that when control becomes an
idol, it can lead us to think too linearly when
the spiritual life itself, as Eunice says, is
more like a spiral. In a spiral, you're kind
of out of control. You're being held and carried,
but you don't really know where it's going. Yet
your lived experience is guiding you deeper into
love. into truth, into goodness. We might describe
Eunice's 50 months of itinerancy as an experience
that was completely out of control, completely
dependent on others for lodging, for food, continually
adapting to her host schedule and their way of
life, and never really planning what was next.
But, as she says, this helped her to experience
a way of life. that was driven by relationship
and connection, a true source of meaning for
us as humans. Now back to the conversation. Yeah,
you've been back for a couple months now. What
has been, well, I guess, December, January, February,
two or three months. What's been jumping out
to you on that? I love the metaphor you used
of a spiral. I'd love to go deeper into that
later too. But what are some of the lessons that
you learned from those 50 months that have been
kind of, you know, perhaps arising within you
again as you've recalibrated and kind of landed?
And perhaps what are some challenges that you're
facing in that? I think the lesson that I learned
and the challenges. are the same in that I live
such a simple life. Like I said, I lived a simple
life before, but I mean, really living out of
a bag is a quite a simple life. And so the lesson
learned is that you really don't need anything.
You really don't need anything. I had my passport,
I had my laptop, and then I had a few outfits.
And again, letting myself be taken care of by
people. If there was something along the way
I needed, if I needed extra toothpaste, there
it was, you know. So that lesson, what I learned
in terms of not needing anything is the challenge
as I get back into this. I'm in a very suburban,
nice house that I'm house sitting. And it's really
hard to not slip back into that life of, like
I said, like. Filling up the house. I need more
furniture. I need more of this. I need more dishes.
Like that size bowl isn't exactly the size bowl
that I need. I have to go out and buy these extra
bowls. So not falling into the material trap.
And of course, the materialness is indicative
of this kind of poverty of relationality, right?
Am I? Am I really in dire need of that bowl and
the fork and that chair? Or is it that I feel
like if I don't have those things, my life is
a little off balance or I'm not okay? I'm okay.
But it's hard. It's hard in this setting to remember
that, to remember. The life that I was living
on the outside, which is really me on the inside.
Those things matched very easily when I was on
the road, I think. And here it's harder because
I try to remember who I am and whose I am and
what I believe and how I want to live my life.
But it's a little bit harder being in a privileged
suburban lifestyle. setting and in california
where the weather is just it's 70 degrees and
you know it's really hard with all of the comforts
and ease of daily life not that you miss those
convent beds don't you yes i miss the convent
40 year old convent beds and yeah and supper
at 4 15 yeah i'm wondering because i i think
i think those listening who are familiar or who
kind of kind of voyaging into the franciscan
space have heard that kind of term franciscan
poverty you know um and i think there's a disconnect
because we we see the way francis and claire
lived 800 years ago and and i i kind of have
a similar reaction that um perhaps I have to
hearing about your 50 month journey. And it's
just the sense of, I could never do that, nor,
you know, nor is that even a realistic thing
to even entertain as a, as a father and husband
with two kids, you know, however, is you kind
of spiral deeper into what Franciscan poverty
is you, you get into some interesting psychological
and spiritual ground for what poverty actually
means as a spiritual posture. Can you, like,
what does it mean to you? And then what would,
I don't want to put you on the spot and ask you
for advice, but maybe how do the lessons you
learn from your 15 -month journey kind of speak
to the freedom that is on the other side of this
poverty? Oh, those are kind of deep questions.
What I can offer, I think, from my own experience
are maybe one or two practical things. And how
do you live out this kind of deep Franciscan
spirituality, this deepness of poverty? And what
does that theology mean? Like I said, the one
simple aspect of letting myself be taken care
of, be loved. to give other people an opportunity
to take up space in caring for me and allowing
myself to be taken care of and thereby expanding
my own heart and understanding my own worthiness.
And that can happen in a million ways. Like for
me, the 50 months on the road, I don't wish that
on anyone. It is not for 99%, 99 .99 % of the
world. That is not for everyone. It was for me,
but It was also unbeknownst to me. I didn't know
that going in, that that would work. And that
was not my goal. It just happened. I just followed
instinct and I allowed myself to just be open
to something. I knew there was so much going
on. My life was so chaotic. I mean, with the
pandemic, everybody's life was chaotic, but I
had just lost my dad and I had lost my mom when
I was very young, when I was 18. And so I had
lost both parents by then. And I'm not married.
I don't have children. And so it allowed me an
opportunity that I had never wanted or thought
I needed. It just came up and it just happened.
So I don't, if the 50 months or even. you know,
five months or five weeks on the road is not
for everyone. Yeah. So, but we can practice being
open to being loved here and now, wherever you
are, on a daily basis, the little things. When
I was younger, I never let people give me a ride
anywhere. Just like a very practical example.
Since I left, well, I didn't leave, but since
I went off to college, I had always lived, until
this place that I landed, I had always lived
somewhere where you can be dependent on transit.
Now, maybe that was subconscious. I am a big
believer in transit. I'm a big believer in community
and, you know, environmental stewardship and
all of that, all those Franciscan things. But
I think it also was a way to be independent and
not need it. Right? So I can name the number
of times I've been dropped off or picked up at
the airport. And most of those are in the last
four years. Coincidence? I think not. But those
kind of things, if I look back and really kind
of delve into like what was behind that, I think
there is a lot of that in terms of not wanting
to be dependent. Wanting to be independent, taking
care of myself, which, of course, beneath that
is the possibility of disappointment and hurt
and not feeling loved and all of that psychological
stuff. But so I think that's one thing is letting
ourselves be loved in a practical way by people,
being taken care of practically by people. And
then there's this sense of openness, being the
poverty of control. in being open, in letting
ourselves being open as a way to practice the
poverty of control. One very practical way for
me is my calendar. If you look at my calendar,
it is packed. It is packed with things that I
procrastinate. That's one thing. But it's also
packed with activities and things and keeping
ourselves busy. I think that's what we all do.
And there's no space for things that might come
up spontaneously. Having a friend ask if I might
be free for dinner or for coffee, and I'm not
because I've packed it in with things. Because
God forbid I have open time and free time and
I'm not quote unquote doing anything or producing
or making myself more worthy to take up space
in this world. And so certainly a lesson around
openness. time and space and letting myself just
be and knowing that that's okay i think that's
something that all of us can and practice yeah
well i appreciate you bringing it back to worth
so often um i i have a very difficult time accepting
things from people i've noticed that about myself
you know um and you know some of it may be uh
culture or upbringing or you know this you know
there's an aspect of it that's respectful where
it's like okay like if you're if you're gonna
do this for me then i want to do something for
you but then i i think in a you're getting at
it i mean i i think for myself and then maybe
for others too they're with certain things especially
when someone goes out of their way to just do
something really, really kind for me. To make
you uncomfortable. Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable.
And I do wonder if I have a hard time accepting
it because I don't think that I deserve it. Deep
down on some level, and maybe it's some subconscious
level that I've yet to explore, but maybe I don't
think that I deserve to be loved in that way.
You know, I mean, that's interesting. And to
bring faith in, in Franciscan spirituality, it's
an openness, like the Franciscan way to me, a
real invitation of it is to open yourself up
to the love and goodness and beauty of God that
is permeating everything. It's easy for me to
go out and experience that in nature, or I love
to golf, like to go out and experience that on
the golf course. It's very difficult for me to
open my heart to experience that when someone
is doing something really, really kind for me.
It's just, I don't have a question there. It's
just, it's an interesting thing in the human
condition. Yeah, or maybe it's just me. No, I
don't think it's just you. I think just as a
human race, for those of us that are privileged
enough to not have to worry about our daily,
you know, roof over our head and food on the
table kind of thing. I think we're very apt to
give. We're very good about giving and being
generous and we're really not good at receiving.
And I do think that's very common. But I think
if we bring it back to. Franciscanism, because
why not? I think a lot of times when someone
wants to do something for us and it's very generous,
we assume, I think, subconsciously maybe, but
we assume that it is just a sacrifice, that it
is just something they're doing and I am taking.
And I think that takes away from understanding
the fullness of that person's humanity in that
there is joy. for them, not only in giving, but
that it's not just giving that they are receiving
from the joy that is me. And I think that's the
part that's really hard for us to visualize is
seeing ourselves as a little pocket of joy for
someone else. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
that will... Oh, my gosh, that is profound. Yeah,
I mean, that will revolutionize your self -view,
your self -worth. Absolutely. I used to do college
campus ministry, and I used to try to take these
concepts of Franciscanism and try to simplify
it in a way that is just really digestible, you
know, for my students. And I always try to bring
things back to toddlers. That if we understood
ourselves as toddlers in the eyes of someone
else, I'm sure your father, you understand that
when you look at, not even just your child, but
when you look at little kids, they are unashamedly
themselves, right? And there is that phase where
they want you to see everything they do until
you get to that phase where they don't want you
to see anything they do. So somewhere between
toddler and teenager. There is a phase where
they just always want you to watch them. Look
at me. Look at me. Watch me. And it's shameless,
right? And we, I think our goal could be to get
back to that point somewhere, maybe not so narcissistic,
but somewhere in between where we are now in
that point of wanting to be seen. There's some
part of us I think we lost along the way where
we don't want to be seen because we have some
shame. something around it. And so if we look
at children, one, they want to be seen all the
time. They want to be validated. They want to
share this with you. And then from your perspective
of seeing your child or any child, there is nothing
they can do where you are just not giddy with
happiness watching them do it. You don't, you
know, you don't take a two -year -old and say
like, well, that wasn't done perfectly. Like,
that didn't make me happy. It's just a sheer
joy, right? They're just a pocket of joy. And
whatever you do for them, you don't think like,
oh, I have to do this for, you know, like, you
know. And so if we could understand ourselves
as some small part of ourselves as that pocket
of joy for someone else, that whatever they may
be doing, maybe they're driving an hour out of
their way to pick me up at the airport, that
there is some joy that I can offer in just who
I am as a human being, as a created, beloved
creation of God, that there is some part of me
that brings joy to this person and not just them
doing the thing itself. That the joy they would
get from picking me up versus the joy they would
get in picking just a random person up because
they're just giving is totally different because
of who I am. Yep. Yeah. And then the joy they
get from me being grateful for that is also another
level. But that isn't the fundamental. The fundamental
is that there is joy in our relationality and
being together. In this final reflection, I wanted
to really sit with what Eunice said about each
of us being, quote, a little pocket of joy for
someone else. That may seem flowery on the surface,
but Eunice invites us to really visualize and
contemplate the implications of this. I don't
know about you, but I am my own worst critic.
I am so, so hard on myself. Sometimes at night
I catch myself in a mental loop, replaying a
mistake that I made that day or a situation that
I wish had turned out differently. Sometimes
this is okay. It reflects a drive to grow, to
become more aware, to step into my own fullness,
I think. But other times it's a kind of ruminating
that gets me nowhere. I think that letting go
of our own judgments of ourselves is another
aspect of this poverty of control that Eunice
invited us to consider earlier. And yes, that
includes my own judgment of how I'm judging myself.
Do you see how confusing this can get? Henry
Nouwen put it this way in his book, Life of the
Beloved, quote, self -rejection is the greatest
enemy of the spiritual life because it contradicts
the sacred voice. that calls us the beloved.
I sometimes ask the golfers that I coach, would
you ever talk to your best friend or a loved
one the way you talk to yourself on the golf
course? It's a question that for me really comes
from the heart because I struggle with it as
well. I'll conclude this final reflection with
these words from Henry Nowen's Life of the Beloved.
Nowen writes, Every time you listen with great
attentiveness to the voice that calls you the
beloved, you will discover within yourself a
desire to hear that voice longer and more deeply.
It is like discovering a well in the desert.
And once you have touched wet ground, you want
to dig deeper. Now back to the conversation.
Yeah, and that's a poverty of control as well,
right? Because letting go of the need to, like
I think of the Seinfeld episode where George,
Elaine, and Jerry, they get invited to a dinner
party. And Elaine is like, you have to bring
a bottle of wine if you're going to a dinner
party. And George is like, I don't like wine.
I'm going to bring Pepsi. And they're like, you
can't. He was like, why can't I just show up
at the party? You know, like, why do we have
to bring something? And that's silly, but there's
a real sense of that for me where there's this
transactional kind of mindset that I'm almost
always in on some level in relationships outside
of my marriage. I feel, I don't know, maybe it's
like feeling like a burden or something, but
it's certainly not looking at myself as a pocket
of joy for someone else. And that's a poverty
of control, to let go of the transactional kind
of paradigm, the negative self -view. You're
a burden or this is this this is a major disruption
to their day or, you know, whatever it may be.
I mean, letting go of those things. The irony
is that that really opens yourself up to be loved
even more. And to awaken to your own inerrant
belovedness is God is loving us into existence
right now, even as we speak. And not even just
being loved, but that it opens you up to love
more the other person who is loving you and this
mutuality of that love. And it's not even just
letting go of the idea of who we think we are,
the small. idea of who we think we are. It's
not even just letting go of that. It's letting
go of what we think other people think of us,
of how small we are. Yeah. Yeah. This assumption
of, well, you know, they must not think I'm worthy,
like for sure. Like, you know, and that old,
what is that? Like what other people think of
you is none of your business. Like, who do you
think you are? You know? Yeah. Let the attempt
to even think. of what other people think of
you to let that go. And just it's this concept
of open hands, right? I think especially in this
Lenten time, we tend to have this idea of this
negative thing, of giving up, you know, and going
without. But it's really an opening up of the
things that we don't usually make time for, you
know? And so this idea of poverty, we also have
this kind of like negative, like, oh, you have
to go without, you have to be poor, you know,
you have to be hungry. You have to be suffering.
You have to be suffering, you know. But it's
really opening ourselves up to these things that
we often don't even know exist or can be part
of our lives. Like our little pea brains, we
think we know, but we don't. We don't know what
is out there that can be for us, that can be
a part of our lives. We don't know. Our imaginations
are not big enough to know. Oh, that is beautifully
said. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, I had a client
one time. fascinating person uh he he dribbled
a basketball across the united states and he
and he basically did it without any real support
team you know like he would i just and i would
ask i was helping him with a book project and
i was asking him i asked him numerous times like
hey if we're writing a book like we kind of need
to put why you did this on paper but it was truly
like asking a bird why they fly you know like
he he was just he's like i i wanted to do this
like i felt like god put this before me to do
it like he wasn't raising money for anything
he wasn't doing it to become some social media
influencer he was just doing it um and wow and
that kind of freedom That's one major thing I
learned from that project is the ability to be
that free. And again, that's not for everyone.
Like a 50 -month, you know. Well, he makes my
life seem boring. Think about how I felt. But
like he had a real openness to. If I have an
interaction with someone at the gas station while
I'm getting a Gatorade, I'm just going to – and
I've seen him do this. I've seen him just – he
almost operates on a level that is completely
outside of time. It's the exact opposite of linear
thinking. I wouldn't even call it nonlinear thinking.
It is more like the spiral where he kind of just
– As the moments appear before him, he gives
himself permission to go deeper into those moments,
those experiences, those encounters. It's very
inspiring to think of that kind of freedom. Yeah,
I think it takes a real presence to yourself,
right? But then preceding that, you have to really
know yourself to be present to yourself. And
I think when you have both of those things, then
those things could happen in a moment. That's
an amazing story. Yeah. I would ask him over
and over, like, dude, why? Why? Why did you do
this? And it was just, I just wanted to. Okay.
You know? And that's, and I think there's a real
depth there spiritually. And it did remind me
of Francis working on that project because. Everything
I've read about Francis, he was kind of like
that and very similar to what you did in your
50 months of itinerancy, too. There isn't really
an agenda, but there are these people and encounters.
Every day that you're invited to, you get to
go deeper into that moment and remind one another
how deeply loved you are just organically through
the mutuality of relationship. You know, I mean.
Yeah. The other thing that I used to always tell
my students, because they would ask these deep
theological questions, but kind of. couched in
these questions that seem mundane and everyday
and practical. And so rather than answering every
question, what I would tell them is for them
to ask themselves, is this action or is this
thing, is this person, is this thing that I'm
about to say, is this building community or is
it breaking down community? Like that was the
why. Like you didn't have to know every little
thing. You don't have to know the theological
implications or the scripture basis. You don't
have to know all of these things. Great if you
do. But the simple question to ask yourself,
is this building community? And I think it sounds
like your friend with a basketball built community
at every single stop. And I would say in my itinerancy
and hopefully my daily life as well. is I'm always
thinking about, is this building community? And
certainly me kind of traipsing around the country
and the world, having these conversations about
what is important to me, but also what is important
in terms of our faith and how do we live it out
and asking these really, really important questions,
especially in this moment of our lives, in this
era, in this. political climate and in the church
climate and the polarization and everything that's
going on, to ask these questions over and over
and have these conversations over and over and
to constantly affirm that, yes, it is still what
we need to be doing and it is our calling and
it is our vocation to do that over and over is
certainly building community. Yeah. That simplifies
it in such a beautiful and profound way. Is this
building community or is it not? And yeah, I
think that's a wonderful place for us to conclude.
Is there anything we left out? Anything you'd
like to hit on? Oh, no, I can talk all day long,
but no, we're good. Well, we can go for another
couple hours, too. This show can be whatever
we want it to be. But thank you for your time,
Eunice. This has been a real joy. And thanks
for sharing everything you learned from your
journey with us. I think this is really important
stuff today. And I've told this to others as
well, but one of my favorite things about doing
this podcast is First, the conversation itself,
that is a kind of community building. But second,
I love going back and editing it. And I get to
sit more with your words, with the wisdom you
shared. So thank you. Thank you. This is such
a great conversation. Once again, that was Eunice
Park. I've linked her story about itinerancy
in St. Anthony Messenger in the show notes of
this episode. as well as other helpful resources
that explore themes from this conversation. You
can find those show notes by visiting franciscanmedia
.org and clicking on Listen and then Franciscan
Spirit Podcast in the upper menu. Huge thanks
to the Franciscan Friars of the Province of Our
Lady of Guadalupe for supporting this podcast.
And if you'd like to make a donation, please
visit friars .us. Thank you as well to Cyprian
Concilio. for providing the intro and outro music
for this podcast. I encourage you to check out
his work wherever you stream your music. Thanks
for tuning in, and thanks for all your support.
This is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and
all good.