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Welcome to the Franciscan Spirit Podcast. It's

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great to be with you. There's a line from a John

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O'Donohue poem that goes like this. I would love

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to live like the river flows, carried by the

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surprise of its own unfolding. I have returned

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to that quote often over the years and have wondered,

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what does it look like to be that free, to be

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that present, to let go of the desire for control

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in such a way that we have an inerrant trust

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In the river's flow. This episode's guest lived

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a lifestyle for 50 months that to me really epitomizes

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this quote. For four years, Eunice Park lived

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an itinerant lifestyle not unlike Francis and

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his early followers. Now she's back in one place

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and is reflecting on what she's learned. This

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episode explores freedom, control, encounter,

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self -worth, and how we allow ourselves to be

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loved as the river carries us. A little more

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about Eunice, and I must say this is one of the

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best bios I've ever read on this podcast. In

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addition to being a master itinerant, Eunice

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Park is a spiritual life coach, retreat facilitator,

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multilingual kimchi maker, cultural critic, spiritual

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accompanist, cook, writer, crafter, musician,

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editor. hot sauce brewer and dinner party comic

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above all she is a follower of francis and claire

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eunice is a leader and a change agent in the

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franciscan world and she has two masters degrees

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from the franciscan school of theology as you

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can tell from her bio she is a real joy and i

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hope that i hope you get as much from this conversation

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as i did so without further ado here is eunice

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park enjoy Eunice, thanks for joining me. Thanks

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for having me. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, can

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you begin just by talking about your background

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and how you ended up finding yourself in this

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wild Franciscan space? Wild, wild space. Is that

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a good description of it? Yeah, I think it's

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an understatement. Yeah, probably. Well, I had

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been in ministry for a number of years already.

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I actually got started with ministry quite early

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with peer ministry in high school. I had grown

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up in the Korean Catholic Church, and much like

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ethnic communities around the country, we didn't

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really have people that could do youth ministry

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or second -generation ministry. And so I just

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kind of rolled up my sleeves. went to the diocese

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and said, I need training, got my certificate,

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and started with youth ministry as a youth. So

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I had been in ministry for quite a number of

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years already before I went off to do a couple

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of masters at the Franciscan School of Theology,

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which at the time was in Berkeley. So the wild,

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wild world of Berkeley meeting the wild, wild

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world of the Franciscans. It was the best of

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both worlds. And I was familiar with Berkeley

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because I had done my undergrad at UC Berkeley.

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And so I was already of the rebellious lifestyle

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anyways. I'm sensing this may be a theme in our

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conversation. It's a theme in this world of Franciscanism,

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and I think that's what makes it great, right?

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So I went off and did a couple of masters with

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them and then started diving in more, or actually

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diving into the Franciscan world. Funny story,

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when I was first thinking about doing my theology,

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At the time when the Franciscan school was in

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Berkeley, it was at a consortium of nine schools.

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It was an ecumenical school called the Graduate

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Theological Union. And it had three Catholic

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schools, the Jesuits and the Dominicans and the

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Franciscans, along with six Protestanti. Some

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are a little less Protestanti or a little less

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mainline Christian schools. But so out of the

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three schools, when I first went to look at the

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schools, I automatically went to the Jesuit school

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because a lot of my adult formation had been

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with Jesuit spiritual directors. And so without

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thinking, I went to the Jesuit school and Providence

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and the Holy Spirit. I did not feel very welcome

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at the Jesuit school. And the Franciscan school

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were like. We have snacks. We like people. And

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so I inadvertently ended up there. And on the

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first day of class, I had an 8 a .m. Old Testament

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class, if you could imagine. It's Old Testament.

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And I'm not a morning person. But the first day

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I walked in, I think that first week, I was.

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crying in class. I just thought, this is it.

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This is where I was supposed to be. What stirred

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you? I think overall in that class, not just

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the first week, but having learned about the

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guilt and shame culture of the Old Testament

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that really spoke to my own culture of having

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grown up. And I guess what we would call a guilt

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and shame culture as well. I'm a first generation

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Korean American. My family immigrated when I

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was eight. And a lot of that resonates in terms

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of what we know about the Old Testament communities

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and values and all of that. Hmm. So did you sense

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in this class and in the Franciscan space in

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particular that there was something of a pathway

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to liberation or freedom or peace? I'm not sure

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what the right word is there. I love this idea

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of liberation and freedom. I think about the

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chickens and that chicken run. Freedom! I think

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maybe the Franciscan spirituality and Franciscan

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theology felt and still feels very much like

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a counter to healing what can often be very hurtful

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parts of that guilt and shame culture. Not that

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it's all bad because there are very, very wonderful

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parts of that in terms of community and in terms

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of. taking care of each other and those aspects.

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But I think there are also aspects that can be

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very hurtful. And I think I found my healing,

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a lot of my healing through the Franciscan spirituality.

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Yeah. So the answer is yes. Yeah. No, I mean,

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that's been my journey as well. Yeah, I mean,

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I... I went pretty deep into, I guess, for lack

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of a better term, what would be described as

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like the conservative evangelical world, kind

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of non -denominational, or as you said, Protestant

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-y Christianity. And yeah, I mean, there were,

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I grew up Catholic, but I mean, I learned so

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much in that evangelical space. Particularly

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when it came to Scripture, it really kind of,

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it really stirred me to delve into theology.

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And so, like, I have a lot of gratitude for my

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journey into that space. But the guilt and the

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shame, you know, particularly in its theology

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around the crucifixion, around the death of Jesus.

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and why that had to happen. Uh, I, yeah, I, I,

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I'd go as far as to say that that was not healthy

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for me psychologically. Um, and, and it could

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just be because of how I internalized it as a

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perfectionist too, you know, like I'm, I'm already

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hard on myself. I don't need a, I don't need

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a metaphor of God that is beating the hell out

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of me as well. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, when I really stumbled

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upon Franciscanism and learning about SCOTUS

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and this kind of minority approach, minority

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viewpoint of the incarnation and one that contradicted

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Anselm, that this was not because of sin. It's

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not saying that sin isn't a thing. It's just

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saying that that wasn't the... premier motive

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for God to send God's Son, that really resonated

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with me theologically. And yeah, I relate to

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your journey on some levels. Yeah. Yeah. Sin

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is a thing. I mean, we don't want to say it's

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not a thing. It is a thing. But the idea, especially

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this Franciscan theology of, or a Franciscan

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theology, that Jesus was always a part of God's

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plan of creation. That is so mind -blowing, especially

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if you come from a certain other theology or

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even for a lot of Catholics. It's mind -blowing,

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I think, that out of the goodness of God's heart,

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out of the love that God had for us, that Jesus

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is always going to be with us. You could just

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sit with that for the rest of your life if you

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have nothing else. That is enough, you know?

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Yeah. Enough. Absolutely. We could go pretty

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deep into this if we wanted to, but I will, I'll

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spare you and I'll switch gears a little bit.

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I am curious. You wrote a really beautiful piece

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in St. Anthony Messenger last year about a very

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unique journey that you were on. It was a 50

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-month journey. Can you take us into that? What

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was it? Why? I'm sure our listeners would be

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really curious. Why? So when COVID hit, I had

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been working at a parish. And like many people

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that worked at parishes, I had gotten laid off,

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which turned out to be very timely because my

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dad was not doing well at the time. And so that

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allowed me. time and freedom and space to be

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able to help take care of him. He passed in July

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of 2021. And I was just physically, emotionally,

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spiritually, I was just drained for obvious reasons.

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And I had already moved out of the place I was

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living in. My stuff was in storage. I had lost

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my job. And so I really didn't have things to

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time it down. At the moment, in terms of not

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being able to go away, I just wanted to get some

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rest and kind of rejuvenate. And so I just kind

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of packed a bag and went to visit my cousins

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up in Seattle. So that was in September of 2021.

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And it was great to get away. I mean, I was exhausted,

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you could imagine. So I went there and then I

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went to visit some other cousins, went to visit

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some other friends. And I thought, like, I don't

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really have anything that I need to rush back

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to. I didn't have a lease on a place. I don't

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own, I don't have a mortgage because I work in

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ministry and I can't afford that in California.

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So I just started going and visiting people.

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And before I knew it, it was a matter of a few

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months. And it had not been so intentional up

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until then. But somewhere along the way, after

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the first few months, I thought, oh. maybe this

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is a thing. It's a thing. I think I could do

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this. And so at that time, it really did become

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more intentional. I put my stuff in more permanent

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storage and I just set off on this itinerant

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life. My wonky life, as I often called it. I

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stayed with friends. I lived out of one bag.

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mostly because I'm too cheap to pay for baggage

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fees on planes. And I moved every three or four

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days. Sometimes I would stay a week. Sometimes

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that'd be one night. There were a couple of times

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when I stayed somewhere for two months. That

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was the longest. But most of the time I moved

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every few days and I stayed with friends. And

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it was 50 months. A lot of my friends are religious,

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so I stayed in a lot of convents and friaries

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and monasteries and retreat houses with a few

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normal, regular lay people thrown in in between.

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So I just got off the road in December after,

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like you said, after 50 months. And it was, yeah,

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it was quite an experience. And I mean, I could

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talk about it forever. And I'm still processing

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because it's only been a couple of months. Yeah.

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Yeah. Take me into it a little bit. Was there

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any kind of mapping in this? Like, was there,

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were you going cross country? Were you making

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your way toward, or was it truly just? Whoever

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invites you, you're going to receive that invitation

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or like what? This is going to sound wild to

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a lot of people or wonky, like you said. I would

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say beautifully wonky. But can you take me into

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that a little bit? Yeah, there really wasn't

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a grand scheme or a grand itinerary. I wrote

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at the beginning of my piece the irony of the

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different definition between itinerant and itinerancy

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in that I didn't really have an itinerary. But

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somehow it worked out being an itinerant without

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an itinerary. There were some places that I visited

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because they were friends that I visited regularly

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or tried to visit regularly. Some of the places

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that I visited would kind of circle around that

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geographical area. Some places were dependent

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on if I had meetings or conferences to go to

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in certain areas. I would hitch a ride afterwards

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with whoever had driven to the conference and

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go and stay with them. There were certainly invitations

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from people. I didn't go where I wasn't wanted,

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I don't think. I mean, maybe people will write

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in and tell you that wasn't true. But I do think

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most of the time people were well -involved to

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invite me. And like I said, I did stay with friends.

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You know, like 95 % of the time I was with friends

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and good friends that I would normally have either

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stayed with or would have stayed with if they

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were. Maybe sometimes not in convenient locations.

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A lot of these convents are in the middle of

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cornfields in a very small town that I had wanted

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to visit, but maybe hadn't had a chance because

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they're so far from a big airport or near where

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I would be going for meetings or whatnot. So

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I had a chance to visit everyone. Every one of

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my friends that I had wanted to visit, which

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is already a huge privilege, I got to visit with

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people that I hadn't seen in 20 years. I got

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to visit several times with people that I would

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normally want to visit, never got to see enough

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of. I got to visit with every single person that

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I had wanted to at least have serious conversations

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about ministry. and vocation. And one of the

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most interesting things to come from that, especially

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the people that I hadn't seen in a while, people

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that I used to do ministry with 20 years ago

00:17:43.220 --> 00:17:47.660
when we were in young adult ministry. I've been

00:17:47.660 --> 00:17:51.259
in young adult ministry for most of my adult

00:17:51.259 --> 00:17:56.259
life. And I used to do a lot more. in a national

00:17:56.259 --> 00:17:59.920
setting. And so there used to be my little tribe,

00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:02.119
what I call my little tribe of people that did

00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.539
young adult ministry. We were all young adults

00:18:04.539 --> 00:18:08.900
and we were on fire and we were just so, so committed

00:18:08.900 --> 00:18:14.779
to the church and to this ministry, to young

00:18:14.779 --> 00:18:18.700
adults and to the youth that were coming up into

00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:21.529
young adulthood and young adults that were. moving

00:18:21.529 --> 00:18:26.390
on into parish life and adulthood, real adulthood

00:18:26.390 --> 00:18:29.549
and all of that. So I got to visit with every

00:18:29.549 --> 00:18:31.569
single one of those people that I wanted to talk

00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:35.009
to. And the sad truth that I learned, which I

00:18:35.009 --> 00:18:39.990
had an inkling of, is none of them are in ministry

00:18:39.990 --> 00:18:45.089
anymore. And none of them are really in church

00:18:45.089 --> 00:18:50.200
anymore. And for good reason. which I can talk

00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:56.099
more about, but yeah. So that was a sad sort

00:18:56.099 --> 00:19:00.279
of affirmation of, and I think a little microcosm

00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:07.019
of, of people in mystery, young adults. Yeah.

00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.079
Yeah. Yeah. What having had so many conversations

00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.779
on the road with. people who like you said had

00:19:14.779 --> 00:19:17.720
left ministry i mean what what were some of the

00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:20.920
themes or is there a kind of conclusion or theory

00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:24.440
you have behind that yeah i mean it's it's not

00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.880
even a theory it's a reality and it's very simple

00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:32.920
is that all of us had been very mistreated abused

00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:42.539
um disrespected or not supported in one way or

00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:48.569
another across the board. And I mean, I think

00:19:48.569 --> 00:19:54.029
we know. We know that that goes on. And very

00:19:54.029 --> 00:19:59.509
sad. And I myself have had a lot, so many experiences

00:19:59.509 --> 00:20:03.329
of not being supported, not financially supported,

00:20:03.509 --> 00:20:08.769
emotionally supported, being yelled at, fought.

00:20:10.809 --> 00:20:16.029
Yeah. Just so many terrible experiences. I was

00:20:16.029 --> 00:20:21.549
laid off once by email from a parish. I was laid

00:20:21.549 --> 00:20:26.849
off once by a postal mail, snail mail, with no

00:20:26.849 --> 00:20:33.789
follow -up meeting. I was laid off once with

00:20:33.789 --> 00:20:36.930
a severance package that had the wrong job description.

00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:40.059
I mean, just so many things. I've had priests

00:20:40.059 --> 00:20:46.660
yell at me, scream at me. I've seen priests make

00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:49.779
people cry in staff meetings. Just terrible,

00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:54.839
terrible things. And yet we continue on because

00:20:54.839 --> 00:21:01.559
we have to. Well, that was my next question.

00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:06.619
Like, why are you still in ministry having? been

00:21:06.619 --> 00:21:09.839
on the road and heard and received these stories

00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:13.000
and then having had some of your own personal

00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:17.339
experiences too in ministry um that were negative

00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:19.759
or scarring or whatever word you want to use

00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:21.960
like what what keeps you going why are you still

00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:25.900
working in ministry today yeah i a lot of my

00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:28.640
friends ask me like how do you still do it um

00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:33.319
i think some of it really is um is being an immigrant

00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.279
i think there's that tenacity of never giving

00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:42.039
up and um but i think more so what else am i

00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.200
going to do this is my vocation this is what

00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:48.920
i'm called to do this is what i love um in spite

00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.140
of it all but also because of it you know i'm

00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:55.799
not the only one that's been emotionally abused

00:21:55.799 --> 00:22:02.900
um i'm not the only one that's been um and unsupported.

00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:05.539
This is all of us, and not just those of us that

00:22:05.539 --> 00:22:09.339
do full -time ministry. This is a lot of people

00:22:09.339 --> 00:22:13.319
in the pews or no longer in the pews. And I think

00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.259
when we think about why young adults are not

00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:20.660
in the pews and how do we get the youth to continue

00:22:20.660 --> 00:22:23.480
on into adulthood in the church, I think we really

00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:27.849
have to be. We have to be the ones to offer up

00:22:27.849 --> 00:22:30.309
the safe space for them to continue to be there.

00:22:31.549 --> 00:22:37.049
I'm not about to leave the house when there's

00:22:37.049 --> 00:22:42.289
no safe space for them to be in. Hmm. Hmm. Oh.

00:22:44.009 --> 00:22:49.829
Yeah, go ahead. No, and also like, what else

00:22:49.829 --> 00:22:53.650
am I going to do? This is my vocation and I love

00:22:53.650 --> 00:22:59.940
it. And I'm grateful for it. What other stories

00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:02.619
jump out to you from your journey? I mean, 50

00:23:02.619 --> 00:23:07.059
months. That's four years. I mean, it's like

00:23:07.059 --> 00:23:11.279
you're back in undergrad. I mean, what other

00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:16.220
stories jump out? Some really bad food at convents,

00:23:16.220 --> 00:23:20.039
eating at 4 .45 p .m. and then being hungry at

00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:23.500
8 .30, having to scrounge around secretly in

00:23:23.500 --> 00:23:29.700
the kitchen. Just the kinds of, and how lunch

00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:31.960
is dinner and dinner is supper, that never gets

00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:36.299
old. Just, I think the conversations, I think

00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:41.960
just how privileged and unusual this life, yes.

00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:45.420
But just how privileged I was in having these

00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:47.180
kinds of conversations. You and I are having

00:23:47.180 --> 00:23:49.279
these conversations because we're on a podcast.

00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.619
And we get these conversations with people now

00:23:53.619 --> 00:23:55.359
and then, you know, when we go to conferences

00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:59.559
or, you know, whatever. But I got to have these

00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:04.660
conversations every single day for 50 months.

00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:11.759
Unbelievable. And so if I was lacking support.

00:24:11.980 --> 00:24:15.680
port before, 50 months of affirmation, I think

00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.380
that's enough to carry me for the rest of my

00:24:18.380 --> 00:24:23.099
life. Being with kindred spirits, being with

00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:30.240
people who are also, many have left. But to be

00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.740
clear, my friends that have left ministry, full

00:24:32.740 --> 00:24:36.380
-time ministry, are still doing ministry, just

00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:39.339
not in the church context. They're doing amazing

00:24:39.339 --> 00:24:42.890
work. And in fact, Many of them are able to do

00:24:42.890 --> 00:24:45.950
so much more because they don't have the limitations

00:24:45.950 --> 00:24:50.190
of being in a church setting. They're doing amazing,

00:24:50.329 --> 00:24:53.329
amazing work out there, mostly with nonprofits

00:24:53.329 --> 00:24:59.089
or those kinds of settings. But yeah, so the

00:24:59.089 --> 00:25:02.910
conversations I was able to have, the affirmations,

00:25:02.910 --> 00:25:10.000
we all still... We're all still on fire in a

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.720
different way. We just have different avenues.

00:25:14.420 --> 00:25:18.420
But also just being inspired by, because I spent

00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:20.920
so much of my time with religious, the way that

00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:25.599
they live out their life and how it seems clear

00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.559
to me as I look forward to turning 60 this year,

00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.920
just looking back in terms of how we have lived

00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:37.059
out our vocations on parallel tracks. Very, very

00:25:37.059 --> 00:25:40.059
different, of course, our lives, but at the same

00:25:40.059 --> 00:25:44.500
time, very, very similar in living out our vocations.

00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:49.599
And now, in a way, because of logistics and the

00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:55.180
numbers of religious that are diminishing a bit,

00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.660
because of logistics, I think we are working

00:25:59.660 --> 00:26:02.380
together more lay and religious than before.

00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.559
But I think it's also a shift in our thinking

00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:09.839
as well. There isn't that kind of a dividing

00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:14.200
line as much as there was before. And so it's

00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.240
kind of an exciting time having those conversations

00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:19.180
with friends, but also talking about collaborating

00:26:19.180 --> 00:26:24.140
and visioning together in a way that, I mean,

00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.519
we've always done that. My friends and I have

00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.160
always done that for the last 30. 40 years. But

00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:33.119
now it's in a way where there can be some practical

00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:36.380
applications to that. A lot of my religious friends

00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:40.000
are now in leadership because of our age. So

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:43.420
that's also a shift in being able to have some

00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:46.900
more resources and being able to vision as a

00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:50.380
congregation as opposed to just singular religious

00:26:50.380 --> 00:26:53.839
friends. So those kind of conversations have

00:26:53.839 --> 00:27:05.349
been probably. the highlight of this life. In

00:27:05.349 --> 00:27:08.109
this first reflection segment, I wanted to pause

00:27:08.109 --> 00:27:11.109
because I think it'd be easy to overlook the

00:27:11.109 --> 00:27:13.869
direction Eunice just went in this conversation.

00:27:14.849 --> 00:27:17.670
On the heels of talking about some of the hurt

00:27:17.670 --> 00:27:21.509
she experienced in ministry and why and how she

00:27:21.509 --> 00:27:25.690
keeps going, She transitioned to talking about

00:27:25.690 --> 00:27:28.130
her 50 months of itinerancy and the depth of

00:27:28.130 --> 00:27:30.109
relationship with others that really brought

00:27:30.109 --> 00:27:33.650
the trip to life. And I find this movement to

00:27:33.650 --> 00:27:38.049
be really inspiring. I, too, take relationships

00:27:38.049 --> 00:27:41.730
and my vocation very seriously. So when things

00:27:41.730 --> 00:27:45.089
don't go my way or when I feel let down, my tendency

00:27:45.089 --> 00:27:49.210
so often is to isolate. Eunice did the opposite.

00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:52.599
She went on a 50 -month journey that was built

00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:55.740
around relationships. And not only that, but

00:27:55.740 --> 00:28:00.519
relationships in ministry. Now, everyone has

00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:03.440
their own way of healing, but I find this to

00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:06.839
be such a beautiful trajectory that Eunice really

00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:09.720
models for us through her own lived experience.

00:28:10.460 --> 00:28:14.799
When people let you down, you go deeper into

00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:16.880
the relationships that are most important to

00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:20.289
you. When you experience turmoil in your vocation,

00:28:20.349 --> 00:28:23.230
in your calling, in that which is most important

00:28:23.230 --> 00:28:26.450
to you or brings you life, you go deeper into

00:28:26.450 --> 00:28:30.450
the life -giving aspects of it. Sometimes my

00:28:30.450 --> 00:28:33.490
periods of isolation are fruitful and necessary

00:28:33.490 --> 00:28:37.369
for healing, but if I'm honest with myself, many

00:28:37.369 --> 00:28:40.930
of the extended periods of isolation are driven

00:28:40.930 --> 00:28:44.730
by fear and hurt. For me, it's easier to write

00:28:44.730 --> 00:28:47.670
off relationships and isolate. rather than risk

00:28:47.670 --> 00:28:51.549
my heart again. I'd rather live in my head than

00:28:51.549 --> 00:28:55.410
risk sharing what's in it and possibly be rejected

00:28:55.410 --> 00:28:59.529
again. But who wants to be driven by fear rather

00:28:59.529 --> 00:29:03.569
than love? As 1 John 4 .18 says, there is no

00:29:03.569 --> 00:29:07.069
fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear,

00:29:07.230 --> 00:29:11.579
because fear has to do with punishment. It's

00:29:11.579 --> 00:29:14.779
so easy to get set in our own ways, and that

00:29:14.779 --> 00:29:17.859
doesn't just mean our routines or our lifestyles.

00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:20.680
I think that also includes our patterns of the

00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:23.619
heart and mind that may not always take us to

00:29:23.619 --> 00:29:26.339
an integrative place, a place that is driven

00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:31.539
by love rather than fear. Eunice's wild 50 months

00:29:31.539 --> 00:29:34.599
of itinerancy is a reminder to me that doing

00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:38.299
the unexpected, risky, crazy thing that interrupts

00:29:38.299 --> 00:29:41.390
these patterns that do not always serve me, is

00:29:41.390 --> 00:29:45.430
oftentimes the most healing thing. Now back to

00:29:45.430 --> 00:29:57.009
the conversation. And then I think just kind

00:29:57.009 --> 00:30:00.769
of looking at myself from an outside perspective,

00:30:00.930 --> 00:30:05.549
just being a little bit surprised, but not surprised,

00:30:05.569 --> 00:30:11.170
but surprised at my own resiliency. Living out

00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:15.390
of a bag. I wore like four outfits for four years.

00:30:16.789 --> 00:30:20.490
I slept in a lot of bad convent beds. Sorry,

00:30:20.569 --> 00:30:23.210
convents. But sometimes they give you the newest

00:30:23.210 --> 00:30:26.250
bed and it's 10 years old. Not knowing if the

00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:29.210
desk has an outlet for me to do my Zoom meeting,

00:30:29.369 --> 00:30:32.589
you know, in the rickety chair. And again, the

00:30:32.589 --> 00:30:40.240
bed. But. Just my own resiliency and, again,

00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.099
tenacity in all of that. None of that bothered

00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:47.240
me, you know, in the way that it would have if

00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:49.980
I was only visiting for a week. That would have

00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:53.339
really, really bothered me a lot. Every one of

00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:58.059
those things. But just being in the spirit of

00:30:58.059 --> 00:31:04.319
openness, I think. Unbeknownst to me, I think.

00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:08.759
The way that I opened myself up, I mean, I was

00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:12.079
certainly aware of some of it, but I think I

00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.680
really, I think still am processing just how

00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:21.799
open I became and how going along with the openness,

00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:28.920
how free I became and not even realizing how

00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:36.089
free I could be. After my father passed, I really

00:31:36.089 --> 00:31:40.410
had no real tethers to at least this geographical

00:31:40.410 --> 00:31:42.710
place. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area.

00:31:43.710 --> 00:31:45.950
I went through elementary, middle, high school

00:31:45.950 --> 00:31:49.269
and college and grad school here. So I'm very

00:31:49.269 --> 00:31:53.829
much tied to this place. But after my father

00:31:53.829 --> 00:31:56.430
passed and I hit the road, I think I really needed

00:31:56.430 --> 00:31:58.789
that kind of physical freedom to understand my

00:31:58.789 --> 00:32:02.980
own spiritual and emotional freedom. I didn't

00:32:02.980 --> 00:32:06.319
have the tethers that were given to me by society,

00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:09.700
and now I was free to choose the tethers, you

00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:13.779
know. This idea of, you know, in Scripture when

00:32:13.779 --> 00:32:16.660
we, at least this is the Scripture that I learned,

00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:22.799
when the Israelites are freed from bondage in

00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.519
Egypt, they're freed from something, but they

00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:28.680
are freed for something. They're freed from slavery,

00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:34.869
but they are freed for... a tetheredness to God.

00:32:35.309 --> 00:32:39.309
And so we choose, we can choose, we have the

00:32:39.309 --> 00:32:43.730
freedom in our faith to, and in our lives to

00:32:43.730 --> 00:32:46.109
choose who and what we want to be tethered to,

00:32:46.269 --> 00:32:49.849
whatever, to bind ourselves to. And that kind

00:32:49.849 --> 00:32:54.509
of binding is not necessarily bad. And so I had

00:32:54.509 --> 00:33:00.190
to, I think, go on this weird wonky life to understand

00:33:00.190 --> 00:33:04.599
how free I was. And to know that I had this complete

00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:09.640
freedom to choose what I am tied to. And why

00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:12.980
do I continue to do this ministerial work is

00:33:12.980 --> 00:33:18.140
what I choose to do. It's what I choose to be

00:33:18.140 --> 00:33:23.740
bound to. And I have been given such a privileged

00:33:23.740 --> 00:33:26.960
life. Even just these last four years, like who

00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.660
gets that? Who gets to spend every single day

00:33:29.660 --> 00:33:32.910
with friends? Who gets to just... float around

00:33:32.910 --> 00:33:36.170
to wherever the wind blows and not have any ties

00:33:36.170 --> 00:33:40.049
to any responsibilities, really. I didn't have

00:33:40.049 --> 00:33:43.130
to take out the garbage or, you know, vacuum

00:33:43.130 --> 00:33:46.289
the house for 50 months. So those kind of freedoms,

00:33:46.549 --> 00:33:52.990
yeah. But the funny thing, the kind of ironic

00:33:52.990 --> 00:33:57.279
thing is, as I was learning about my own resiliency

00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:01.680
and tenacity and the freedom and all of that,

00:34:01.700 --> 00:34:05.039
as I was learning about myself, I was also learning

00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:09.420
about, you know, religious and just people in

00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:14.840
general around the country. And one of the funniest,

00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:19.619
I think, most ironic aspects of talking about

00:34:19.619 --> 00:34:22.219
this life when I was on the road, I would give

00:34:22.219 --> 00:34:29.610
talks here and there. whatever. The most dramatic

00:34:29.610 --> 00:34:32.769
reactions I got from people were from religious

00:34:32.769 --> 00:34:36.690
women in particular, who would say, oh my gosh,

00:34:36.730 --> 00:34:40.190
I could never live without my stability and my

00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:42.849
things and knowing where I was going to sleep.

00:34:42.849 --> 00:34:46.449
And I could never do what you're doing. And I

00:34:46.449 --> 00:34:49.769
thought, so. ironic because you're the one that

00:34:49.769 --> 00:34:52.170
have taken the vows like i could never take those

00:34:52.170 --> 00:34:57.210
vows and so just understanding the humanity and

00:34:57.210 --> 00:35:01.630
the real um the realness of of what's behind

00:35:01.630 --> 00:35:05.829
our lives the the actual lived experiences of

00:35:05.829 --> 00:35:09.530
those vows and the lived experiences of our lifestyle

00:35:09.530 --> 00:35:13.090
and our daily choices, that it's not so black

00:35:13.090 --> 00:35:15.349
and white. And I think part of it is my age.

00:35:15.389 --> 00:35:17.690
Part of it was pandemic. I think we all learned

00:35:17.690 --> 00:35:21.889
a lot from pandemic as well. But just really

00:35:21.889 --> 00:35:25.010
seeing the reality of these things that we talk

00:35:25.010 --> 00:35:29.050
about, the lived realities of these words that

00:35:29.050 --> 00:35:34.030
we use, vows. concepts, even around the concept

00:35:34.030 --> 00:35:38.829
of poverty. You know, a lot of times I live,

00:35:38.969 --> 00:35:44.329
even before my jump to itinerancy, I lived a

00:35:44.329 --> 00:35:49.389
life of voluntary simplicity. I mean, I didn't

00:35:49.389 --> 00:35:54.349
live in abject poverty by any means or even a

00:35:54.349 --> 00:35:57.250
financial poverty, but I lived a very simple

00:35:57.250 --> 00:36:01.099
life and that was what I chose. Took transit

00:36:01.099 --> 00:36:04.079
when I could. I walked when I could. So for a

00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.000
very, very long time, I had heard from people

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.380
around me, even friends, like, oh, I don't know

00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:12.739
how you live like that. You're so unusual. And,

00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:15.059
you know, how do you live? What are you going

00:36:15.059 --> 00:36:17.159
to do about retirement? Like, that was the number

00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:18.800
one question. Like, how are you going to take

00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:21.880
care of yourself in retirement? I said, you know,

00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:25.039
it'll be fine. It'll be okay. You don't need

00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:31.840
to worry so much. I have heard a lot about voluntary

00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:40.739
poverty, whatever that means. And it always revolved

00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:43.480
around money. It always revolved around finances.

00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:48.579
But in this itinerant life that I lived, I began

00:36:48.579 --> 00:36:50.800
to think a lot more about other kinds of poverty,

00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:54.280
and in particular, poverty of control. You know,

00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:59.489
making myself open to... What might come even

00:36:59.489 --> 00:37:01.789
if I wasn't, quote unquote, in control? I mean,

00:37:01.809 --> 00:37:06.510
are we ever in control anyway? Right. But letting

00:37:06.510 --> 00:37:10.429
go of not knowing every single aspect of my life,

00:37:10.550 --> 00:37:13.269
how much exactly down to the penny is my paycheck

00:37:13.269 --> 00:37:15.849
going to be, you know, next week? And for half

00:37:15.849 --> 00:37:18.869
of my attendance, I wasn't even working. I worked

00:37:18.869 --> 00:37:22.989
full time remotely for half of it. And then the

00:37:22.989 --> 00:37:25.849
other half, I wasn't working at all. And so.

00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:31.980
I was just living. And so poverty of control

00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:35.659
in terms of finances, but also where am I going

00:37:35.659 --> 00:37:38.940
to be next week? Is someone going to offer me

00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:41.860
hospitality, you know, three weeks from now?

00:37:43.099 --> 00:37:48.119
And then looking back and seeing that for 50

00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:52.559
months, for every single day, I had hospitality.

00:37:53.340 --> 00:37:56.539
I spent one night in an airport lounge and that

00:37:56.539 --> 00:37:58.559
was not because I didn't have hospitality. It's

00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:02.539
because the flight was canceled. But having a

00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:07.360
place to sleep, having people offer meals, having

00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:11.619
people drive me to the train station and the

00:38:11.619 --> 00:38:16.460
airport and meeting me in places for 50 months,

00:38:16.539 --> 00:38:21.699
that is something. I have a lot of friends and

00:38:21.699 --> 00:38:24.489
I'm very, very... privileged and blessed in that

00:38:24.489 --> 00:38:29.110
way but also I think this is how people are but

00:38:29.110 --> 00:38:35.309
I never let them be hospitable I never let them

00:38:35.309 --> 00:38:38.809
give I didn't give them the opportunity to be

00:38:38.809 --> 00:38:41.989
giving because I was trying to control taking

00:38:41.989 --> 00:38:46.829
care of myself and then I opened it up for other

00:38:46.829 --> 00:38:51.510
people to care for me and then it goes back to

00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:58.380
our theology of being worthy to be taken care

00:38:58.380 --> 00:39:02.539
of yeah well you're you're going the direction

00:39:02.539 --> 00:39:06.599
i kind of hoped we would go and because i'm sure

00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:10.059
a lot of people listening they're maybe thinking

00:39:10.059 --> 00:39:14.300
in the back of their mind i do not have the time

00:39:14.300 --> 00:39:19.519
or luxury or you know, family kind of flexibility

00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.579
to go on the road in this itinerant lifestyle

00:39:22.579 --> 00:39:27.199
for 50 months. However, you're naming all these

00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:30.579
different kind of spiritual postures and principles

00:39:30.579 --> 00:39:34.980
that you learned from that journey that I think

00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:38.880
everyone listening can perhaps take into their

00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:40.800
own life. I mean, you mentioned that spiritual

00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.860
posture of openness. I love what you said about

00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:47.380
voluntary poverty and poverty of control. I mean,

00:39:47.380 --> 00:39:49.659
in this country, I see that one being a big one.

00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:54.199
And just we, and you said it so well, I mean,

00:39:54.219 --> 00:39:59.139
it's so weird how desperately I try to control

00:39:59.139 --> 00:40:04.380
things. And yet, the weirder thing would be for

00:40:04.829 --> 00:40:08.550
everything in my life to fall into place exactly

00:40:08.550 --> 00:40:12.889
the way I want it to like that would be the that

00:40:12.889 --> 00:40:15.630
would be the weird thing is if everything went

00:40:15.630 --> 00:40:19.809
linearly the way I want it to um so already like

00:40:19.809 --> 00:40:22.309
we're kind of flipping the paradigm and saying

00:40:22.309 --> 00:40:28.449
like well no life itself is um life itself is

00:40:28.449 --> 00:40:34.510
it's it's non -linear Oh, it's nonlinear, right.

00:40:34.630 --> 00:40:37.829
Yeah. And that sense to control, that desire

00:40:37.829 --> 00:40:41.670
to control is certainly human. However, I think

00:40:41.670 --> 00:40:44.210
there's a real truth in the fact that there's

00:40:44.210 --> 00:40:49.170
a spiritual task in not becoming so wrapped up

00:40:49.170 --> 00:40:52.210
in that. Am I tracking with you? Yeah, absolutely.

00:40:52.590 --> 00:40:56.409
Okay. And the idea that life is this spiral,

00:40:56.710 --> 00:40:59.550
right? Like it's circular, but it's not quite

00:40:59.550 --> 00:41:02.019
circular in that you come to a much... much deeper

00:41:02.019 --> 00:41:04.280
place, right? Even though the vantage point,

00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:07.320
it looks exactly like where you are. So in my

00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:10.900
case, it's literally, I'm back in the same city

00:41:10.900 --> 00:41:14.599
that I grew up in. I just landed, like I said,

00:41:14.659 --> 00:41:17.699
in December and I'm house sitting for some friends.

00:41:18.099 --> 00:41:20.480
So I'm here for maybe a year or two. I don't

00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.760
know, but it's the city where I grew up. And

00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.599
so, but I haven't lived here since high school.

00:41:27.139 --> 00:41:31.369
So I'm back in the vantage point. Looks exactly

00:41:31.369 --> 00:41:33.750
the same. I'm literally across the street from

00:41:33.750 --> 00:41:37.289
one of the houses I lived in. And yet, of course,

00:41:37.289 --> 00:41:39.230
I'm not the same person because I'm not in high

00:41:39.230 --> 00:41:41.789
school, but also I'm not the same person I was

00:41:41.789 --> 00:41:47.010
four years ago when I left. But at the same time,

00:41:47.050 --> 00:41:49.809
it took me about maybe two weeks to be back here

00:41:49.809 --> 00:41:53.210
to get back into my exact same routine of like.

00:41:53.900 --> 00:41:56.559
Well, I have to have these different forks for

00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:58.900
different things that I eat. And I have to have

00:41:58.900 --> 00:42:01.380
these different chairs for this different thing.

00:42:01.460 --> 00:42:06.420
And my Wi -Fi is not fast. Like, I lived out

00:42:06.420 --> 00:42:10.199
of a bag for four years. And it's almost like,

00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:12.800
when did that happen? I don't remember that because

00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:16.119
I'm back and my life needs to be very, very comfortable.

00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:23.230
I need to have everything controlled. I have

00:42:23.230 --> 00:42:25.710
to, I think it's going to be my journey for the

00:42:25.710 --> 00:42:28.670
next year or this year, the year of the fire

00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:32.650
horse, to remind myself that I am a little bit

00:42:32.650 --> 00:42:35.570
deeper in my spiral. I think I just need to get

00:42:35.570 --> 00:42:40.670
acclimated. It's a little jarring and I'm a little

00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:44.809
bit discombobulated being back. So I think I

00:42:44.809 --> 00:42:49.570
need to sort of, what's the word when you calibrate

00:42:49.570 --> 00:42:52.420
it? That's it. It's going to take me a little

00:42:52.420 --> 00:43:01.679
bit of time to calibrate being back. The direction

00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.079
Eunice went with Franciscan poverty is one worth

00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.119
exploring here in this second reflection segment.

00:43:08.860 --> 00:43:12.599
One aspect of Franciscan poverty, she says, is

00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:17.190
a poverty of control. This is so important today,

00:43:17.289 --> 00:43:19.630
I think, because one could argue that control

00:43:19.630 --> 00:43:23.889
is the premier idol in our 21st century way of

00:43:23.889 --> 00:43:28.050
life. Control of our schedules, control of our

00:43:28.050 --> 00:43:32.489
finances, control of our careers, control of

00:43:32.489 --> 00:43:35.110
our children, our friends, our loved ones. In

00:43:35.110 --> 00:43:38.230
other words, who we want them to become, which

00:43:38.230 --> 00:43:41.750
oftentimes, if we're honest. are extensions or

00:43:41.750 --> 00:43:45.369
reflections of ourselves. As Thomas Merton wrote,

00:43:45.570 --> 00:43:48.309
the beginning of love is the will to let those

00:43:48.309 --> 00:43:51.889
we love to be perfectly themselves. The resolution

00:43:51.889 --> 00:43:57.090
not to twist them to fit our own image. Worry

00:43:57.090 --> 00:44:00.789
itself often undermines that desire for control,

00:44:01.030 --> 00:44:05.250
I think. We seek more control, it seems, as if

00:44:05.250 --> 00:44:08.969
thinking it will cure our worry. We spend so

00:44:08.969 --> 00:44:12.429
much energy, as William Paul Young, author of

00:44:12.429 --> 00:44:14.829
The Shack, talks about. We spend so much energy

00:44:14.829 --> 00:44:18.309
future tripping. And so we devote our time and

00:44:18.309 --> 00:44:21.750
energy fooling ourselves into thinking that we

00:44:21.750 --> 00:44:24.969
are the ones steering the river. In reality,

00:44:25.030 --> 00:44:27.570
as Richard Rohr says, we're just pushing the

00:44:27.570 --> 00:44:31.190
river rather than entering or surrendering to

00:44:31.190 --> 00:44:34.929
its flow. And it's not that control is always

00:44:34.929 --> 00:44:38.289
bad. I do think that when control becomes an

00:44:38.289 --> 00:44:42.230
idol, it can lead us to think too linearly when

00:44:42.230 --> 00:44:44.869
the spiritual life itself, as Eunice says, is

00:44:44.869 --> 00:44:48.969
more like a spiral. In a spiral, you're kind

00:44:48.969 --> 00:44:53.630
of out of control. You're being held and carried,

00:44:53.809 --> 00:44:57.170
but you don't really know where it's going. Yet

00:44:57.170 --> 00:45:00.610
your lived experience is guiding you deeper into

00:45:00.610 --> 00:45:06.389
love. into truth, into goodness. We might describe

00:45:06.389 --> 00:45:09.849
Eunice's 50 months of itinerancy as an experience

00:45:09.849 --> 00:45:13.210
that was completely out of control, completely

00:45:13.210 --> 00:45:16.829
dependent on others for lodging, for food, continually

00:45:16.829 --> 00:45:20.070
adapting to her host schedule and their way of

00:45:20.070 --> 00:45:23.329
life, and never really planning what was next.

00:45:23.969 --> 00:45:27.710
But, as she says, this helped her to experience

00:45:27.710 --> 00:45:30.670
a way of life. that was driven by relationship

00:45:30.670 --> 00:45:34.230
and connection, a true source of meaning for

00:45:34.230 --> 00:45:43.670
us as humans. Now back to the conversation. Yeah,

00:45:43.750 --> 00:45:47.730
you've been back for a couple months now. What

00:45:47.730 --> 00:45:50.309
has been, well, I guess, December, January, February,

00:45:50.510 --> 00:45:53.510
two or three months. What's been jumping out

00:45:53.510 --> 00:45:57.469
to you on that? I love the metaphor you used

00:45:57.469 --> 00:46:00.469
of a spiral. I'd love to go deeper into that

00:46:00.469 --> 00:46:04.409
later too. But what are some of the lessons that

00:46:04.409 --> 00:46:07.110
you learned from those 50 months that have been

00:46:07.110 --> 00:46:11.349
kind of, you know, perhaps arising within you

00:46:11.349 --> 00:46:14.909
again as you've recalibrated and kind of landed?

00:46:15.429 --> 00:46:19.670
And perhaps what are some challenges that you're

00:46:19.670 --> 00:46:23.849
facing in that? I think the lesson that I learned

00:46:23.849 --> 00:46:28.530
and the challenges. are the same in that I live

00:46:28.530 --> 00:46:31.530
such a simple life. Like I said, I lived a simple

00:46:31.530 --> 00:46:33.690
life before, but I mean, really living out of

00:46:33.690 --> 00:46:37.829
a bag is a quite a simple life. And so the lesson

00:46:37.829 --> 00:46:39.969
learned is that you really don't need anything.

00:46:40.469 --> 00:46:45.190
You really don't need anything. I had my passport,

00:46:45.449 --> 00:46:48.369
I had my laptop, and then I had a few outfits.

00:46:48.889 --> 00:46:53.570
And again, letting myself be taken care of by

00:46:53.570 --> 00:46:56.309
people. If there was something along the way

00:46:56.309 --> 00:46:58.469
I needed, if I needed extra toothpaste, there

00:46:58.469 --> 00:47:05.730
it was, you know. So that lesson, what I learned

00:47:05.730 --> 00:47:08.289
in terms of not needing anything is the challenge

00:47:08.289 --> 00:47:12.130
as I get back into this. I'm in a very suburban,

00:47:12.250 --> 00:47:18.010
nice house that I'm house sitting. And it's really

00:47:18.010 --> 00:47:21.690
hard to not slip back into that life of, like

00:47:21.690 --> 00:47:24.739
I said, like. Filling up the house. I need more

00:47:24.739 --> 00:47:27.280
furniture. I need more of this. I need more dishes.

00:47:27.460 --> 00:47:31.840
Like that size bowl isn't exactly the size bowl

00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:34.940
that I need. I have to go out and buy these extra

00:47:34.940 --> 00:47:39.019
bowls. So not falling into the material trap.

00:47:40.019 --> 00:47:42.619
And of course, the materialness is indicative

00:47:42.619 --> 00:47:47.400
of this kind of poverty of relationality, right?

00:47:49.179 --> 00:47:53.699
Am I? Am I really in dire need of that bowl and

00:47:53.699 --> 00:47:57.519
the fork and that chair? Or is it that I feel

00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.800
like if I don't have those things, my life is

00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:06.019
a little off balance or I'm not okay? I'm okay.

00:48:06.500 --> 00:48:12.840
But it's hard. It's hard in this setting to remember

00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:15.889
that, to remember. The life that I was living

00:48:15.889 --> 00:48:18.650
on the outside, which is really me on the inside.

00:48:18.889 --> 00:48:24.769
Those things matched very easily when I was on

00:48:24.769 --> 00:48:29.349
the road, I think. And here it's harder because

00:48:29.349 --> 00:48:33.510
I try to remember who I am and whose I am and

00:48:33.510 --> 00:48:36.710
what I believe and how I want to live my life.

00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:40.409
But it's a little bit harder being in a privileged

00:48:40.409 --> 00:48:46.599
suburban lifestyle. setting and in california

00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:49.320
where the weather is just it's 70 degrees and

00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:53.920
you know it's really hard with all of the comforts

00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:58.519
and ease of daily life not that you miss those

00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:02.579
convent beds don't you yes i miss the convent

00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:06.460
40 year old convent beds and yeah and supper

00:49:06.460 --> 00:49:11.119
at 4 15 yeah i'm wondering because i i think

00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:15.840
i think those listening who are familiar or who

00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:19.440
kind of kind of voyaging into the franciscan

00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:22.159
space have heard that kind of term franciscan

00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:26.820
poverty you know um and i think there's a disconnect

00:49:26.820 --> 00:49:29.719
because we we see the way francis and claire

00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:34.380
lived 800 years ago and and i i kind of have

00:49:34.380 --> 00:49:38.679
a similar reaction that um perhaps I have to

00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:41.519
hearing about your 50 month journey. And it's

00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:45.500
just the sense of, I could never do that, nor,

00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:49.059
you know, nor is that even a realistic thing

00:49:49.059 --> 00:49:54.360
to even entertain as a, as a father and husband

00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:58.320
with two kids, you know, however, is you kind

00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.079
of spiral deeper into what Franciscan poverty

00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:03.980
is you, you get into some interesting psychological

00:50:03.980 --> 00:50:08.940
and spiritual ground for what poverty actually

00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:14.400
means as a spiritual posture. Can you, like,

00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:18.599
what does it mean to you? And then what would,

00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:21.840
I don't want to put you on the spot and ask you

00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:25.659
for advice, but maybe how do the lessons you

00:50:25.659 --> 00:50:27.920
learn from your 15 -month journey kind of speak

00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:32.260
to the freedom that is on the other side of this

00:50:32.260 --> 00:50:36.539
poverty? Oh, those are kind of deep questions.

00:50:38.160 --> 00:50:41.679
What I can offer, I think, from my own experience

00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:47.039
are maybe one or two practical things. And how

00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:50.099
do you live out this kind of deep Franciscan

00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:53.539
spirituality, this deepness of poverty? And what

00:50:53.539 --> 00:50:59.820
does that theology mean? Like I said, the one

00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:02.900
simple aspect of letting myself be taken care

00:51:02.900 --> 00:51:07.730
of, be loved. to give other people an opportunity

00:51:07.730 --> 00:51:12.570
to take up space in caring for me and allowing

00:51:12.570 --> 00:51:16.030
myself to be taken care of and thereby expanding

00:51:16.030 --> 00:51:19.789
my own heart and understanding my own worthiness.

00:51:20.150 --> 00:51:23.030
And that can happen in a million ways. Like for

00:51:23.030 --> 00:51:26.449
me, the 50 months on the road, I don't wish that

00:51:26.449 --> 00:51:31.710
on anyone. It is not for 99%, 99 .99 % of the

00:51:31.710 --> 00:51:35.690
world. That is not for everyone. It was for me,

00:51:35.730 --> 00:51:40.769
but It was also unbeknownst to me. I didn't know

00:51:40.769 --> 00:51:42.630
that going in, that that would work. And that

00:51:42.630 --> 00:51:46.210
was not my goal. It just happened. I just followed

00:51:46.210 --> 00:51:51.190
instinct and I allowed myself to just be open

00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:55.269
to something. I knew there was so much going

00:51:55.269 --> 00:51:59.019
on. My life was so chaotic. I mean, with the

00:51:59.019 --> 00:52:01.480
pandemic, everybody's life was chaotic, but I

00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:04.599
had just lost my dad and I had lost my mom when

00:52:04.599 --> 00:52:07.679
I was very young, when I was 18. And so I had

00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:11.380
lost both parents by then. And I'm not married.

00:52:11.420 --> 00:52:14.599
I don't have children. And so it allowed me an

00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:18.820
opportunity that I had never wanted or thought

00:52:18.820 --> 00:52:22.599
I needed. It just came up and it just happened.

00:52:23.659 --> 00:52:27.570
So I don't, if the 50 months or even. you know,

00:52:27.590 --> 00:52:29.949
five months or five weeks on the road is not

00:52:29.949 --> 00:52:35.429
for everyone. Yeah. So, but we can practice being

00:52:35.429 --> 00:52:41.150
open to being loved here and now, wherever you

00:52:41.150 --> 00:52:46.690
are, on a daily basis, the little things. When

00:52:46.690 --> 00:52:50.650
I was younger, I never let people give me a ride

00:52:50.650 --> 00:52:54.469
anywhere. Just like a very practical example.

00:52:56.420 --> 00:52:58.920
Since I left, well, I didn't leave, but since

00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:02.159
I went off to college, I had always lived, until

00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:04.980
this place that I landed, I had always lived

00:53:04.980 --> 00:53:07.159
somewhere where you can be dependent on transit.

00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:10.519
Now, maybe that was subconscious. I am a big

00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:12.840
believer in transit. I'm a big believer in community

00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:16.659
and, you know, environmental stewardship and

00:53:16.659 --> 00:53:19.199
all of that, all those Franciscan things. But

00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:23.019
I think it also was a way to be independent and

00:53:23.019 --> 00:53:29.250
not need it. Right? So I can name the number

00:53:29.250 --> 00:53:31.550
of times I've been dropped off or picked up at

00:53:31.550 --> 00:53:34.230
the airport. And most of those are in the last

00:53:34.230 --> 00:53:38.769
four years. Coincidence? I think not. But those

00:53:38.769 --> 00:53:41.909
kind of things, if I look back and really kind

00:53:41.909 --> 00:53:45.530
of delve into like what was behind that, I think

00:53:45.530 --> 00:53:50.030
there is a lot of that in terms of not wanting

00:53:50.030 --> 00:53:53.630
to be dependent. Wanting to be independent, taking

00:53:53.630 --> 00:53:56.449
care of myself, which, of course, beneath that

00:53:56.449 --> 00:53:59.349
is the possibility of disappointment and hurt

00:53:59.349 --> 00:54:01.530
and not feeling loved and all of that psychological

00:54:01.530 --> 00:54:05.670
stuff. But so I think that's one thing is letting

00:54:05.670 --> 00:54:08.769
ourselves be loved in a practical way by people,

00:54:08.869 --> 00:54:12.369
being taken care of practically by people. And

00:54:12.369 --> 00:54:16.369
then there's this sense of openness, being the

00:54:16.369 --> 00:54:23.980
poverty of control. in being open, in letting

00:54:23.980 --> 00:54:26.739
ourselves being open as a way to practice the

00:54:26.739 --> 00:54:30.900
poverty of control. One very practical way for

00:54:30.900 --> 00:54:34.000
me is my calendar. If you look at my calendar,

00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:37.860
it is packed. It is packed with things that I

00:54:37.860 --> 00:54:41.360
procrastinate. That's one thing. But it's also

00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:43.940
packed with activities and things and keeping

00:54:43.940 --> 00:54:46.420
ourselves busy. I think that's what we all do.

00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:50.119
And there's no space for things that might come

00:54:50.119 --> 00:54:55.280
up spontaneously. Having a friend ask if I might

00:54:55.280 --> 00:54:58.199
be free for dinner or for coffee, and I'm not

00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:01.980
because I've packed it in with things. Because

00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:05.000
God forbid I have open time and free time and

00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.639
I'm not quote unquote doing anything or producing

00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:11.579
or making myself more worthy to take up space

00:55:11.579 --> 00:55:17.940
in this world. And so certainly a lesson around

00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:26.079
openness. time and space and letting myself just

00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:29.800
be and knowing that that's okay i think that's

00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:33.400
something that all of us can and practice yeah

00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:36.599
well i appreciate you bringing it back to worth

00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:42.179
so often um i i have a very difficult time accepting

00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:44.739
things from people i've noticed that about myself

00:55:44.739 --> 00:55:50.099
you know um and you know some of it may be uh

00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:54.340
culture or upbringing or you know this you know

00:55:54.340 --> 00:55:57.000
there's an aspect of it that's respectful where

00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:59.539
it's like okay like if you're if you're gonna

00:55:59.539 --> 00:56:01.300
do this for me then i want to do something for

00:56:01.300 --> 00:56:05.500
you but then i i think in a you're getting at

00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:09.119
it i mean i i think for myself and then maybe

00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:13.619
for others too they're with certain things especially

00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:17.199
when someone goes out of their way to just do

00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:21.119
something really, really kind for me. To make

00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:23.280
you uncomfortable. Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable.

00:56:23.460 --> 00:56:28.400
And I do wonder if I have a hard time accepting

00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:31.440
it because I don't think that I deserve it. Deep

00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:34.219
down on some level, and maybe it's some subconscious

00:56:34.219 --> 00:56:37.480
level that I've yet to explore, but maybe I don't

00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:40.659
think that I deserve to be loved in that way.

00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:47.269
You know, I mean, that's interesting. And to

00:56:47.269 --> 00:56:51.809
bring faith in, in Franciscan spirituality, it's

00:56:51.809 --> 00:56:58.170
an openness, like the Franciscan way to me, a

00:56:58.170 --> 00:57:04.309
real invitation of it is to open yourself up

00:57:04.309 --> 00:57:09.670
to the love and goodness and beauty of God that

00:57:09.670 --> 00:57:15.429
is permeating everything. It's easy for me to

00:57:15.429 --> 00:57:18.190
go out and experience that in nature, or I love

00:57:18.190 --> 00:57:20.050
to golf, like to go out and experience that on

00:57:20.050 --> 00:57:22.969
the golf course. It's very difficult for me to

00:57:22.969 --> 00:57:27.829
open my heart to experience that when someone

00:57:27.829 --> 00:57:30.989
is doing something really, really kind for me.

00:57:31.769 --> 00:57:33.730
It's just, I don't have a question there. It's

00:57:33.730 --> 00:57:36.570
just, it's an interesting thing in the human

00:57:36.570 --> 00:57:41.960
condition. Yeah, or maybe it's just me. No, I

00:57:41.960 --> 00:57:44.679
don't think it's just you. I think just as a

00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:48.619
human race, for those of us that are privileged

00:57:48.619 --> 00:57:50.659
enough to not have to worry about our daily,

00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:52.780
you know, roof over our head and food on the

00:57:52.780 --> 00:57:55.980
table kind of thing. I think we're very apt to

00:57:55.980 --> 00:57:58.320
give. We're very good about giving and being

00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:01.000
generous and we're really not good at receiving.

00:58:01.719 --> 00:58:07.000
And I do think that's very common. But I think

00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:11.170
if we bring it back to. Franciscanism, because

00:58:11.170 --> 00:58:15.409
why not? I think a lot of times when someone

00:58:15.409 --> 00:58:18.409
wants to do something for us and it's very generous,

00:58:18.610 --> 00:58:22.489
we assume, I think, subconsciously maybe, but

00:58:22.489 --> 00:58:26.929
we assume that it is just a sacrifice, that it

00:58:26.929 --> 00:58:29.650
is just something they're doing and I am taking.

00:58:30.050 --> 00:58:33.349
And I think that takes away from understanding

00:58:33.349 --> 00:58:36.630
the fullness of that person's humanity in that

00:58:36.630 --> 00:58:41.969
there is joy. for them, not only in giving, but

00:58:41.969 --> 00:58:45.070
that it's not just giving that they are receiving

00:58:45.070 --> 00:58:51.030
from the joy that is me. And I think that's the

00:58:51.030 --> 00:58:55.110
part that's really hard for us to visualize is

00:58:55.110 --> 00:58:59.150
seeing ourselves as a little pocket of joy for

00:58:59.150 --> 00:59:05.130
someone else. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

00:59:05.130 --> 00:59:09.750
that will... Oh, my gosh, that is profound. Yeah,

00:59:09.829 --> 00:59:12.969
I mean, that will revolutionize your self -view,

00:59:13.130 --> 00:59:17.909
your self -worth. Absolutely. I used to do college

00:59:17.909 --> 00:59:22.349
campus ministry, and I used to try to take these

00:59:22.349 --> 00:59:25.909
concepts of Franciscanism and try to simplify

00:59:25.909 --> 00:59:28.949
it in a way that is just really digestible, you

00:59:28.949 --> 00:59:34.010
know, for my students. And I always try to bring

00:59:34.010 --> 00:59:40.170
things back to toddlers. That if we understood

00:59:40.170 --> 00:59:43.230
ourselves as toddlers in the eyes of someone

00:59:43.230 --> 00:59:46.489
else, I'm sure your father, you understand that

00:59:46.489 --> 00:59:49.570
when you look at, not even just your child, but

00:59:49.570 --> 00:59:53.210
when you look at little kids, they are unashamedly

00:59:53.210 --> 00:59:57.190
themselves, right? And there is that phase where

00:59:57.190 --> 00:59:59.670
they want you to see everything they do until

00:59:59.670 --> 01:00:01.289
you get to that phase where they don't want you

01:00:01.289 --> 01:00:02.949
to see anything they do. So somewhere between

01:00:02.949 --> 01:00:06.150
toddler and teenager. There is a phase where

01:00:06.150 --> 01:00:09.170
they just always want you to watch them. Look

01:00:09.170 --> 01:00:14.849
at me. Look at me. Watch me. And it's shameless,

01:00:15.230 --> 01:00:19.909
right? And we, I think our goal could be to get

01:00:19.909 --> 01:00:23.030
back to that point somewhere, maybe not so narcissistic,

01:00:23.090 --> 01:00:25.750
but somewhere in between where we are now in

01:00:25.750 --> 01:00:28.889
that point of wanting to be seen. There's some

01:00:28.889 --> 01:00:31.130
part of us I think we lost along the way where

01:00:31.130 --> 01:00:33.090
we don't want to be seen because we have some

01:00:33.090 --> 01:00:38.119
shame. something around it. And so if we look

01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:40.300
at children, one, they want to be seen all the

01:00:40.300 --> 01:00:42.719
time. They want to be validated. They want to

01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:46.039
share this with you. And then from your perspective

01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:50.760
of seeing your child or any child, there is nothing

01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:53.920
they can do where you are just not giddy with

01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:56.829
happiness watching them do it. You don't, you

01:00:56.829 --> 01:00:58.650
know, you don't take a two -year -old and say

01:00:58.650 --> 01:01:00.630
like, well, that wasn't done perfectly. Like,

01:01:00.650 --> 01:01:03.510
that didn't make me happy. It's just a sheer

01:01:03.510 --> 01:01:06.750
joy, right? They're just a pocket of joy. And

01:01:06.750 --> 01:01:09.309
whatever you do for them, you don't think like,

01:01:09.429 --> 01:01:11.730
oh, I have to do this for, you know, like, you

01:01:11.730 --> 01:01:17.070
know. And so if we could understand ourselves

01:01:17.070 --> 01:01:22.940
as some small part of ourselves as that pocket

01:01:22.940 --> 01:01:25.900
of joy for someone else, that whatever they may

01:01:25.900 --> 01:01:27.940
be doing, maybe they're driving an hour out of

01:01:27.940 --> 01:01:31.280
their way to pick me up at the airport, that

01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:34.739
there is some joy that I can offer in just who

01:01:34.739 --> 01:01:38.460
I am as a human being, as a created, beloved

01:01:38.460 --> 01:01:41.659
creation of God, that there is some part of me

01:01:41.659 --> 01:01:46.619
that brings joy to this person and not just them

01:01:46.619 --> 01:01:50.119
doing the thing itself. That the joy they would

01:01:50.119 --> 01:01:52.699
get from picking me up versus the joy they would

01:01:52.699 --> 01:01:55.639
get in picking just a random person up because

01:01:55.639 --> 01:01:58.599
they're just giving is totally different because

01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:02.659
of who I am. Yep. Yeah. And then the joy they

01:02:02.659 --> 01:02:07.320
get from me being grateful for that is also another

01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:11.980
level. But that isn't the fundamental. The fundamental

01:02:11.980 --> 01:02:16.420
is that there is joy in our relationality and

01:02:16.420 --> 01:02:24.480
being together. In this final reflection, I wanted

01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:26.820
to really sit with what Eunice said about each

01:02:26.820 --> 01:02:30.599
of us being, quote, a little pocket of joy for

01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:35.440
someone else. That may seem flowery on the surface,

01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:39.699
but Eunice invites us to really visualize and

01:02:39.699 --> 01:02:43.539
contemplate the implications of this. I don't

01:02:43.539 --> 01:02:46.780
know about you, but I am my own worst critic.

01:02:47.610 --> 01:02:51.769
I am so, so hard on myself. Sometimes at night

01:02:51.769 --> 01:02:54.809
I catch myself in a mental loop, replaying a

01:02:54.809 --> 01:02:58.110
mistake that I made that day or a situation that

01:02:58.110 --> 01:03:01.190
I wish had turned out differently. Sometimes

01:03:01.190 --> 01:03:04.670
this is okay. It reflects a drive to grow, to

01:03:04.670 --> 01:03:07.690
become more aware, to step into my own fullness,

01:03:07.969 --> 01:03:12.050
I think. But other times it's a kind of ruminating

01:03:12.050 --> 01:03:15.909
that gets me nowhere. I think that letting go

01:03:15.909 --> 01:03:18.449
of our own judgments of ourselves is another

01:03:18.449 --> 01:03:22.469
aspect of this poverty of control that Eunice

01:03:22.469 --> 01:03:25.989
invited us to consider earlier. And yes, that

01:03:25.989 --> 01:03:29.190
includes my own judgment of how I'm judging myself.

01:03:29.809 --> 01:03:33.889
Do you see how confusing this can get? Henry

01:03:33.889 --> 01:03:36.130
Nouwen put it this way in his book, Life of the

01:03:36.130 --> 01:03:39.250
Beloved, quote, self -rejection is the greatest

01:03:39.250 --> 01:03:42.789
enemy of the spiritual life because it contradicts

01:03:42.789 --> 01:03:45.710
the sacred voice. that calls us the beloved.

01:03:47.269 --> 01:03:51.449
I sometimes ask the golfers that I coach, would

01:03:51.449 --> 01:03:53.989
you ever talk to your best friend or a loved

01:03:53.989 --> 01:03:56.670
one the way you talk to yourself on the golf

01:03:56.670 --> 01:04:00.150
course? It's a question that for me really comes

01:04:00.150 --> 01:04:02.349
from the heart because I struggle with it as

01:04:02.349 --> 01:04:05.889
well. I'll conclude this final reflection with

01:04:05.889 --> 01:04:08.469
these words from Henry Nowen's Life of the Beloved.

01:04:10.670 --> 01:04:15.610
Nowen writes, Every time you listen with great

01:04:15.610 --> 01:04:18.429
attentiveness to the voice that calls you the

01:04:18.429 --> 01:04:21.869
beloved, you will discover within yourself a

01:04:21.869 --> 01:04:25.309
desire to hear that voice longer and more deeply.

01:04:25.869 --> 01:04:28.969
It is like discovering a well in the desert.

01:04:29.389 --> 01:04:32.510
And once you have touched wet ground, you want

01:04:32.510 --> 01:04:37.010
to dig deeper. Now back to the conversation.

01:04:43.789 --> 01:04:47.389
Yeah, and that's a poverty of control as well,

01:04:47.590 --> 01:04:58.849
right? Because letting go of the need to, like

01:04:58.849 --> 01:05:01.570
I think of the Seinfeld episode where George,

01:05:01.849 --> 01:05:04.849
Elaine, and Jerry, they get invited to a dinner

01:05:04.849 --> 01:05:09.800
party. And Elaine is like, you have to bring

01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:11.420
a bottle of wine if you're going to a dinner

01:05:11.420 --> 01:05:13.579
party. And George is like, I don't like wine.

01:05:13.639 --> 01:05:15.179
I'm going to bring Pepsi. And they're like, you

01:05:15.179 --> 01:05:17.559
can't. He was like, why can't I just show up

01:05:17.559 --> 01:05:19.139
at the party? You know, like, why do we have

01:05:19.139 --> 01:05:22.460
to bring something? And that's silly, but there's

01:05:22.460 --> 01:05:24.960
a real sense of that for me where there's this

01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:28.820
transactional kind of mindset that I'm almost

01:05:28.820 --> 01:05:33.320
always in on some level in relationships outside

01:05:33.320 --> 01:05:38.559
of my marriage. I feel, I don't know, maybe it's

01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:41.320
like feeling like a burden or something, but

01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:44.500
it's certainly not looking at myself as a pocket

01:05:44.500 --> 01:05:48.340
of joy for someone else. And that's a poverty

01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:53.539
of control, to let go of the transactional kind

01:05:53.539 --> 01:05:59.380
of paradigm, the negative self -view. You're

01:05:59.380 --> 01:06:02.780
a burden or this is this this is a major disruption

01:06:02.780 --> 01:06:05.880
to their day or, you know, whatever it may be.

01:06:05.980 --> 01:06:09.400
I mean, letting go of those things. The irony

01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:13.940
is that that really opens yourself up to be loved

01:06:13.940 --> 01:06:17.619
even more. And to awaken to your own inerrant

01:06:17.619 --> 01:06:20.739
belovedness is God is loving us into existence

01:06:20.739 --> 01:06:23.920
right now, even as we speak. And not even just

01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:27.280
being loved, but that it opens you up to love

01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:30.440
more the other person who is loving you and this

01:06:30.440 --> 01:06:36.599
mutuality of that love. And it's not even just

01:06:36.599 --> 01:06:40.400
letting go of the idea of who we think we are,

01:06:40.420 --> 01:06:44.130
the small. idea of who we think we are. It's

01:06:44.130 --> 01:06:46.190
not even just letting go of that. It's letting

01:06:46.190 --> 01:06:50.250
go of what we think other people think of us,

01:06:50.250 --> 01:06:53.630
of how small we are. Yeah. Yeah. This assumption

01:06:53.630 --> 01:06:56.610
of, well, you know, they must not think I'm worthy,

01:06:56.730 --> 01:06:59.110
like for sure. Like, you know, and that old,

01:06:59.230 --> 01:07:02.329
what is that? Like what other people think of

01:07:02.329 --> 01:07:04.309
you is none of your business. Like, who do you

01:07:04.309 --> 01:07:08.510
think you are? You know? Yeah. Let the attempt

01:07:08.510 --> 01:07:11.389
to even think. of what other people think of

01:07:11.389 --> 01:07:14.809
you to let that go. And just it's this concept

01:07:14.809 --> 01:07:18.789
of open hands, right? I think especially in this

01:07:18.789 --> 01:07:22.630
Lenten time, we tend to have this idea of this

01:07:22.630 --> 01:07:26.090
negative thing, of giving up, you know, and going

01:07:26.090 --> 01:07:30.590
without. But it's really an opening up of the

01:07:30.590 --> 01:07:33.809
things that we don't usually make time for, you

01:07:33.809 --> 01:07:37.050
know? And so this idea of poverty, we also have

01:07:37.050 --> 01:07:38.829
this kind of like negative, like, oh, you have

01:07:38.829 --> 01:07:41.210
to go without, you have to be poor, you know,

01:07:41.230 --> 01:07:45.670
you have to be hungry. You have to be suffering.

01:07:46.130 --> 01:07:50.090
You have to be suffering, you know. But it's

01:07:50.090 --> 01:07:52.809
really opening ourselves up to these things that

01:07:52.809 --> 01:07:55.789
we often don't even know exist or can be part

01:07:55.789 --> 01:08:00.449
of our lives. Like our little pea brains, we

01:08:00.449 --> 01:08:03.429
think we know, but we don't. We don't know what

01:08:03.429 --> 01:08:06.550
is out there that can be for us, that can be

01:08:06.550 --> 01:08:11.110
a part of our lives. We don't know. Our imaginations

01:08:11.110 --> 01:08:16.489
are not big enough to know. Oh, that is beautifully

01:08:16.489 --> 01:08:23.670
said. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, I had a client

01:08:23.670 --> 01:08:29.539
one time. fascinating person uh he he dribbled

01:08:29.539 --> 01:08:33.520
a basketball across the united states and he

01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:37.260
and he basically did it without any real support

01:08:37.260 --> 01:08:43.140
team you know like he would i just and i would

01:08:43.140 --> 01:08:45.119
ask i was helping him with a book project and

01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:49.079
i was asking him i asked him numerous times like

01:08:49.079 --> 01:08:51.279
hey if we're writing a book like we kind of need

01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:56.170
to put why you did this on paper but it was truly

01:08:56.170 --> 01:08:59.390
like asking a bird why they fly you know like

01:08:59.390 --> 01:09:03.409
he he was just he's like i i wanted to do this

01:09:03.409 --> 01:09:06.789
like i felt like god put this before me to do

01:09:06.789 --> 01:09:09.489
it like he wasn't raising money for anything

01:09:09.489 --> 01:09:12.890
he wasn't doing it to become some social media

01:09:12.890 --> 01:09:18.090
influencer he was just doing it um and wow and

01:09:18.090 --> 01:09:23.789
that kind of freedom That's one major thing I

01:09:23.789 --> 01:09:28.449
learned from that project is the ability to be

01:09:28.449 --> 01:09:31.470
that free. And again, that's not for everyone.

01:09:31.670 --> 01:09:35.590
Like a 50 -month, you know. Well, he makes my

01:09:35.590 --> 01:09:41.329
life seem boring. Think about how I felt. But

01:09:41.329 --> 01:09:47.739
like he had a real openness to. If I have an

01:09:47.739 --> 01:09:50.159
interaction with someone at the gas station while

01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:53.520
I'm getting a Gatorade, I'm just going to – and

01:09:53.520 --> 01:09:56.619
I've seen him do this. I've seen him just – he

01:09:56.619 --> 01:09:59.319
almost operates on a level that is completely

01:09:59.319 --> 01:10:04.859
outside of time. It's the exact opposite of linear

01:10:04.859 --> 01:10:07.079
thinking. I wouldn't even call it nonlinear thinking.

01:10:07.239 --> 01:10:12.380
It is more like the spiral where he kind of just

01:10:12.380 --> 01:10:16.750
– As the moments appear before him, he gives

01:10:16.750 --> 01:10:20.050
himself permission to go deeper into those moments,

01:10:20.289 --> 01:10:25.770
those experiences, those encounters. It's very

01:10:25.770 --> 01:10:28.310
inspiring to think of that kind of freedom. Yeah,

01:10:28.329 --> 01:10:31.970
I think it takes a real presence to yourself,

01:10:32.210 --> 01:10:35.569
right? But then preceding that, you have to really

01:10:35.569 --> 01:10:40.369
know yourself to be present to yourself. And

01:10:40.369 --> 01:10:42.449
I think when you have both of those things, then

01:10:42.449 --> 01:10:45.529
those things could happen in a moment. That's

01:10:45.529 --> 01:10:49.909
an amazing story. Yeah. I would ask him over

01:10:49.909 --> 01:10:53.909
and over, like, dude, why? Why? Why did you do

01:10:53.909 --> 01:10:58.149
this? And it was just, I just wanted to. Okay.

01:10:58.310 --> 01:11:02.489
You know? And that's, and I think there's a real

01:11:02.489 --> 01:11:05.430
depth there spiritually. And it did remind me

01:11:05.430 --> 01:11:08.770
of Francis working on that project because. Everything

01:11:08.770 --> 01:11:11.029
I've read about Francis, he was kind of like

01:11:11.029 --> 01:11:13.350
that and very similar to what you did in your

01:11:13.350 --> 01:11:17.010
50 months of itinerancy, too. There isn't really

01:11:17.010 --> 01:11:21.109
an agenda, but there are these people and encounters.

01:11:22.270 --> 01:11:27.750
Every day that you're invited to, you get to

01:11:27.750 --> 01:11:31.350
go deeper into that moment and remind one another

01:11:31.350 --> 01:11:35.109
how deeply loved you are just organically through

01:11:35.109 --> 01:11:37.869
the mutuality of relationship. You know, I mean.

01:11:38.130 --> 01:11:40.930
Yeah. The other thing that I used to always tell

01:11:40.930 --> 01:11:43.210
my students, because they would ask these deep

01:11:43.210 --> 01:11:48.300
theological questions, but kind of. couched in

01:11:48.300 --> 01:11:51.300
these questions that seem mundane and everyday

01:11:51.300 --> 01:11:55.640
and practical. And so rather than answering every

01:11:55.640 --> 01:12:01.220
question, what I would tell them is for them

01:12:01.220 --> 01:12:04.380
to ask themselves, is this action or is this

01:12:04.380 --> 01:12:07.939
thing, is this person, is this thing that I'm

01:12:07.939 --> 01:12:11.720
about to say, is this building community or is

01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:15.100
it breaking down community? Like that was the

01:12:15.100 --> 01:12:17.720
why. Like you didn't have to know every little

01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:19.539
thing. You don't have to know the theological

01:12:19.539 --> 01:12:23.880
implications or the scripture basis. You don't

01:12:23.880 --> 01:12:26.119
have to know all of these things. Great if you

01:12:26.119 --> 01:12:30.140
do. But the simple question to ask yourself,

01:12:30.300 --> 01:12:34.279
is this building community? And I think it sounds

01:12:34.279 --> 01:12:36.699
like your friend with a basketball built community

01:12:36.699 --> 01:12:42.399
at every single stop. And I would say in my itinerancy

01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:46.680
and hopefully my daily life as well. is I'm always

01:12:46.680 --> 01:12:49.199
thinking about, is this building community? And

01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:52.939
certainly me kind of traipsing around the country

01:12:52.939 --> 01:12:56.659
and the world, having these conversations about

01:12:56.659 --> 01:13:00.079
what is important to me, but also what is important

01:13:00.079 --> 01:13:02.619
in terms of our faith and how do we live it out

01:13:02.619 --> 01:13:06.579
and asking these really, really important questions,

01:13:06.600 --> 01:13:10.880
especially in this moment of our lives, in this

01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:15.140
era, in this. political climate and in the church

01:13:15.140 --> 01:13:17.720
climate and the polarization and everything that's

01:13:17.720 --> 01:13:20.380
going on, to ask these questions over and over

01:13:20.380 --> 01:13:22.779
and have these conversations over and over and

01:13:22.779 --> 01:13:27.880
to constantly affirm that, yes, it is still what

01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:31.340
we need to be doing and it is our calling and

01:13:31.340 --> 01:13:35.239
it is our vocation to do that over and over is

01:13:35.239 --> 01:13:40.680
certainly building community. Yeah. That simplifies

01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:43.920
it in such a beautiful and profound way. Is this

01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:48.859
building community or is it not? And yeah, I

01:13:48.859 --> 01:13:51.439
think that's a wonderful place for us to conclude.

01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:54.880
Is there anything we left out? Anything you'd

01:13:54.880 --> 01:13:58.479
like to hit on? Oh, no, I can talk all day long,

01:13:58.560 --> 01:14:02.289
but no, we're good. Well, we can go for another

01:14:02.289 --> 01:14:04.670
couple hours, too. This show can be whatever

01:14:04.670 --> 01:14:07.689
we want it to be. But thank you for your time,

01:14:07.829 --> 01:14:09.750
Eunice. This has been a real joy. And thanks

01:14:09.750 --> 01:14:13.170
for sharing everything you learned from your

01:14:13.170 --> 01:14:18.210
journey with us. I think this is really important

01:14:18.210 --> 01:14:24.149
stuff today. And I've told this to others as

01:14:24.149 --> 01:14:27.510
well, but one of my favorite things about doing

01:14:27.510 --> 01:14:31.029
this podcast is First, the conversation itself,

01:14:31.170 --> 01:14:34.010
that is a kind of community building. But second,

01:14:34.189 --> 01:14:37.369
I love going back and editing it. And I get to

01:14:37.369 --> 01:14:40.130
sit more with your words, with the wisdom you

01:14:40.130 --> 01:14:43.789
shared. So thank you. Thank you. This is such

01:14:43.789 --> 01:14:48.869
a great conversation. Once again, that was Eunice

01:14:48.869 --> 01:14:52.270
Park. I've linked her story about itinerancy

01:14:52.270 --> 01:14:54.609
in St. Anthony Messenger in the show notes of

01:14:54.609 --> 01:14:57.449
this episode. as well as other helpful resources

01:14:57.449 --> 01:15:02.090
that explore themes from this conversation. You

01:15:02.090 --> 01:15:04.770
can find those show notes by visiting franciscanmedia

01:15:04.770 --> 01:15:08.229
.org and clicking on Listen and then Franciscan

01:15:08.229 --> 01:15:12.010
Spirit Podcast in the upper menu. Huge thanks

01:15:12.010 --> 01:15:14.449
to the Franciscan Friars of the Province of Our

01:15:14.449 --> 01:15:17.029
Lady of Guadalupe for supporting this podcast.

01:15:17.489 --> 01:15:19.850
And if you'd like to make a donation, please

01:15:19.850 --> 01:15:23.890
visit friars .us. Thank you as well to Cyprian

01:15:23.890 --> 01:15:27.159
Concilio. for providing the intro and outro music

01:15:27.159 --> 01:15:30.500
for this podcast. I encourage you to check out

01:15:30.500 --> 01:15:33.699
his work wherever you stream your music. Thanks

01:15:33.699 --> 01:15:35.779
for tuning in, and thanks for all your support.

01:15:36.119 --> 01:15:39.619
This is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and

01:15:39.619 --> 01:15:40.420
all good.