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Welcome to Franciscan Spirit. It's great to be

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with you. To say the least, there's a lot going

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on in the world. But one of the issues that has

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dominated the headlines domestically here in

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the United States is immigration. And this administration's

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approach to deportation in particular. I have

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found myself approaching this issue curiously,

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but also cautiously. I always want to guard myself

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from being overly reactive, particularly when

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so often it seems like this reactivity and rage

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is what is driving our social media algorithms

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as well as political campaigns. But still, I

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have wondered. In other words, I've wondered...

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what about this current administration's approach

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is truly unorthodox and unprecedented. But most

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importantly, I've thought to myself, how do my

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own Christian and Franciscan values guide me

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in an issue that seems incredibly complex and

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nuanced? And yet, at the same time, crystal clear

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when it comes to human dignity and the importance

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of going into and listening to people on the

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margins. Theologically I think it's pretty difficult

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to justify turning anyone away who is seeking

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a better life for themselves and their families.

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But I also understand the practical reality that

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countries need strong institutions and systems

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and protocols to function in an efficient, safe,

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and orderly way. We get into all this and more

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in this episode of Franciscan Spirit. I cannot

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think of a better person to discuss these delicate

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topics than this episode's guest, Suzanne Susany.

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Sister Suzanne, OSF of the Sisters of St. Francis

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of the Newman Communities, is an immigration

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lawyer who lives and works in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

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After a number of twists and turns in her career,

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Sister Suzanne attained a degree in law from

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Duquesne University in 2010. Sister Suzanne is

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on the front lines of this issue and deals firsthand

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with immigrants seeking refuge in the United

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States. Her voice, you'll find, is wise, poised,

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contemplative, but I also really appreciated

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how candid she was about her experiences these

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last couple years, particularly about some of

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the disturbing shifts in the legal realm that,

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in my opinion, would cause our very founding

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fathers to be extremely concerned. To our international

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listeners, and I know there are a lot of you,

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though this episode is United States -centric,

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I do hope it's insightful as you navigate your

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own political issues in your own countries and

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the importance of elevating the Franciscan spirit

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today as we process what is happening around

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us. This was recorded, I'll say, on February

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10th, before everything that has broken out in

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the Middle East. Even more of a reason, I think,

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to publish this episode now. Today's politics

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is marked by very real consequential issues,

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but also distraction. I think we should keep

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very important issues in our public consciousness

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and not allow it to dissolve into the hectic

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news cycle. I have provided reflection segments

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throughout this episode, and again, these are

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opportunities to pause and sit and contemplate

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something a guest has said, or to go deeper into

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an important theme in the conversation. So, without

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further ado, here is Sister Suzanne Susanee.

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Enjoy. Sister Suzanne, welcome to the podcast.

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Thank you, Stephen. I'm pleased to be here. Yeah,

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I really appreciate you taking the time. You're

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a very important voice in this realm of immigration.

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You're an immigration attorney, a Franciscan

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sister. Could we begin there? Can you tell listeners

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a little bit about your background in both the

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religious space and then the law attorney space

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as well? of just wanting to be a teacher. And

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that's what I was for the first 10 years of my

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life. But after that, during that 10 years, I

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was sent to Puerto Rico. And in Puerto Rico,

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I really loved the island, the people. I started

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to learn Spanish, came back and worked again

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in high school and was sent back to work in religious

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vocation work and formation. So I was down there.

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Well, I was in Puerto Rico a total of 17 years.

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And when I was done with that, I didn't want

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to lose my Spanish. So I worked in parishes.

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in Lorain, Ohio, in Georgia, and also in Ashtabula,

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Ohio. And all of them had elements of the Hispanic

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community. I learned a lot about working in parish

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work in Lorain, Ohio, and I carried that with

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me. When I was moving from Ashtabula, My major

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superior, I had worked, you know, when you work

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with an immigrant community and you're working

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with a community that doesn't know English well,

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you end up doing a lot of stuff. You go to school

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and translate for the parents, you know, with

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the kids. You go to hospital and you go to court,

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municipal court. So my major superior said to

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me, well, You've been going to court. Why don't

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you study law? Now, I had never thought of that,

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but I was looking for where I was going to move

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next. I didn't want to work in the diocese because

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I wanted to hands -on. I wanted to work with

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the people. So I applied. I applied to three

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law schools because I was still working at the

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time. You know, you didn't have a lot of time

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to study or anything. I took the LSAT twice.

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The second time I used a book, I studied a bit.

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And I raised it enough that I was accepted into

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Duquesne Law School. So following, that was very

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convenient because my mother was here in Pittsburgh,

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and she was elderly. So I got to visit her also

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on Saturdays to help her out a little bit. I

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guess the third miracle of the year was I graduated,

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and the fourth miracle, I passed the bar. So

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I began to work immediately in immigration, and

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I learned a lot of it hands -on. I actually started

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in court. I think most people usually start with

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applications, but I did really more in court.

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And I really learned a lot from the judge and

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from my colleagues. things, of course, were kind

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of different in court than they are right now,

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than they are today. And so that was in 2010.

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I have been working in immigration ever since.

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Okay. I was curious, what made you want to become

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an immigration attorney? That seems like a very

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unique calling. Well, as I say, I was working

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with immigrants in all three of my missions in

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Lorain, Ohio. Now, Lorain was mostly Puerto Rican,

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but there were Mexicans, and there were elements

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of the population who were undocumented. And,

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of course, the church is really a central place,

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so they would come. to Mass and to the liturgy,

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and especially Our Lady of Guadalupe. You know,

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that was really the first one. Then I went to

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Georgia, and actually in the little town where

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I was working, I actually started the Hispanic

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community under the direction of the pastor.

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I lived in one town, and I had to travel to the

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other town really for my work. And we brought

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together the Hispanic community, which she was

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very happy with. So now I was only in Georgia

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three years. I moved to Ashtabula, and there

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was a number of undocumented Hispanics, and some

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were documented. And they really also came together

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to form a community. They mostly were Mexican

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and very hard workers, very hard workers. The

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sense of family, the sense of community, the

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work ethic, the love of their children. They

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were very, very positive things. We started a

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religious education for the children, the sacraments,

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preparation, the mass in Spanish, which they

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really appreciated. Yeah, you hit on it a little

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bit already, but as you spent time in these different

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communities, What jumped out to you about their

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stories, their journey? Was there anything that

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really kind of stirred your heart and moved you

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into action, into doing what you're doing today?

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Well, you know, they have the same goals. They

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have the same ideals of all working class people,

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that they wanted to work. They were not afraid

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to do that. You know, the gospel says the worker

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deserves his keep. They were not afraid of hard

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work, work that, you know, most Anglos would

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not be able to do. They were picking. different

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crops, vegetables. They worked a lot in construction.

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They worked in landscaping. And the Mexicans

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are green thumbs. They know how to work with

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the different plants. They have an eye for what

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would look good on your property. They were wonderful,

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and many of them worked in factories. And the

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labor, you know, one of the women actually, they

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worked in pairs, but they worked with the car

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hoods, fenders and hoods, and two of them together

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lifting. Now, it was good pay. But you had these

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women, very, very strong, very strong. And they

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really used the energy and the force of their

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bodies because they had kids to provide for.

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Yeah, I want to get into the nuances and complexities

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of... immigration law and everything that's unfolding

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today in the United States. Yes. Could we begin

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first? I love your perspective as a Franciscan

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as well. And you wrote a wonderful article about

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this for St. Anthony Messenger in 2024, I believe.

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But, you know, what would it look like, in your

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opinion, for our immigration system to have a

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Franciscan heart? Well, as many of the bishops

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have already said, Franciscans, and Francis was

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really very Catholic, would recognize the dignity

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of each person, and the dignity because they

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were created by God, in the image of God. And

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Francis respected that. even of great sinners,

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that the image of God is there. And he would

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respect authority. He would respect priests that

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were not perfect because they are made in the

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image of God and they are able to consecrate.

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He was very, very Catholic in that respect. You

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know, the second part, the second part, I used

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in the article, and I think is very appropriate

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here, is the idea of community. Community, the

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common good. You know, Francis was known for

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his radical poverty. When I was a younger sister,

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I used to say, well, You know, here we are Franciscan

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and we have a house, we have clothing, we have

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food. You know, should we be giving all that

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up? But then what would you do? How would you

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live? So Francis was radical. He is not to be

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followed in that way. But when you look at what

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his early followers did, Francis lived at the

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time. when the medieval towns were beginning

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to take shape. And so was the capitalistic system.

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Francis abhorred money, but not money for the

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sake of money, money because it represented wealth

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and power and the hoarding of both. The friars

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recognized, that all these people that are coming

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from outside the city needed to also eat. You

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know, maybe they were able to do horseshoes.

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Maybe they were able to make leather goods. Maybe

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they were skilled at making different kinds of

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clothing. You know, all the different things

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that you need in a city. And so the friars...

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encouraged the use of money, but money as it

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would benefit the common good. In other words,

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you might be selling this article, but you should

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not charge extravagantly for this, not exorbitant

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prices. And the same with people who were farmers

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who were bringing in the food. You know that

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they should not charge exorbitant prices either.

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Why? Because we must work together for the common

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good. And you see that often in the Hispanic

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community. Yeah. Yeah. And that aspect of the

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common good, I appreciate you diving into this.

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I feel like that is so important in a capitalist

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society. Because it is so easy, either on a personal

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level or societal level, for capitalism to become

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ruthless. Whereas compassionate capitalism, with

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the common good in mind, it can lead to empowerment.

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It can lead to lifting up the lowly. So do you

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have anything to add there? You know, some of

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the billionaires of today, have done a lot in

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our world to alleviate health problems in the

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poorest of nations. They have foundations that

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really are providing. Now, see, you don't begrudge

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people that have money. You know, they have earned

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it or they have gotten it. But is it being used?

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And, you know, it doesn't mean billionaires need

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to give away all their money. They have children.

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They have hopes. They have legacies, you know.

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But they also need to look toward those who are

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less fortunate. You know, there are so many different

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ways that people can enjoy what they have and

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still work for the common good. In this first

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reflection segment, I wanted to highlight a theme

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that Sister Suzanne returns to you'll find again

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and again throughout this conversation, and that

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is the notion of the common good. According to

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section 1906 in the Catechism of the Catholic

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Church, the common good is, quote, the sum total

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of social conditions, which allow people, either

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as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment

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more fully and more easily. As Father Pat McCloskey

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summarizes in an article that I've linked to

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in the show notes, the Catechism then lists three

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essential elements of the common good. The first,

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respect for the fundamental and inalienable rights

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of the human person. The second, social well

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-being and development of the group itself. And

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third, the stability and security of a just order.

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I think today it's easier than ever with the

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internet and now AI to isolate ourselves. It's

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easy to end up in an echo chamber, even unintentionally,

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when our own opinions are constantly being echoed

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back to us, reaffirming a sense of moral superiority.

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The common good breaks this open. It leads us

00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:15.430
outside of ourselves to consider those who are

00:21:15.430 --> 00:21:18.589
suffering and how we can create a more just,

00:21:18.829 --> 00:21:23.480
equal, and loving society and world. I'll conclude

00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:26.119
this reflection with this verse from 1 Corinthians

00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:30.460
12, 7. To each is given the manifestation of

00:21:30.460 --> 00:21:34.779
the Spirit for the common good. I'll read it

00:21:34.779 --> 00:21:37.799
one more time. To each is given the manifestation

00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:43.039
of the Spirit for the common good. In other words,

00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.380
this Spirit we've each been given, this inerrant

00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:50.599
union we have with God, with Christ, leads us.

00:21:51.049 --> 00:21:54.210
If we let the spirit do its work into deeper

00:21:54.210 --> 00:21:57.769
unity with one another, even those whom we are

00:21:57.769 --> 00:22:00.950
yet to become aware of the spiritual connectedness.

00:22:02.509 --> 00:22:12.150
Now back to the conversation. I'm curious what

00:22:12.150 --> 00:22:16.109
you think about this. And Francis comes to mind

00:22:16.109 --> 00:22:18.630
here as well. But when it comes to the common

00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:23.039
good. At least during this age we're living through

00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:28.640
right now, it seems like labeling can lead to

00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:33.240
a certain ignorance or blindness toward the common

00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.259
good. And we saw this in Francis's time, right?

00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:41.730
I mean, lepers. banished from society, essentially,

00:22:41.950 --> 00:22:45.910
labeled. And Francis, of course, this was a long

00:22:45.910 --> 00:22:49.589
process for him, a kind of deepening of his conversion.

00:22:50.230 --> 00:22:55.589
But he began to see that, oh, yeah, like, Christ

00:22:55.589 --> 00:22:59.750
is right here in these people who our society

00:22:59.750 --> 00:23:03.329
is kind of pushed out. And then you see that

00:23:03.329 --> 00:23:05.490
as well with his—we just did an episode on the

00:23:05.490 --> 00:23:08.410
podcast about this, but you see that as well

00:23:08.410 --> 00:23:11.130
with his experience with Sultan Malik al -Kamil.

00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:18.630
And people labeled by the church itself—I mean,

00:23:18.670 --> 00:23:21.410
I think we dove into this on the episode, but

00:23:21.410 --> 00:23:24.950
the papal bull was basically calling Christians

00:23:24.950 --> 00:23:29.089
to genocide of the Muslim people. And Francis—

00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:33.170
through experience, through being a peacemaker,

00:23:33.349 --> 00:23:36.410
and let's be honest, probably trying to evangelize

00:23:36.410 --> 00:23:39.769
on some level. But again, Francis's conversion

00:23:39.769 --> 00:23:43.970
deepened as he saw Christ in the other. So I

00:23:43.970 --> 00:23:47.490
bring all that up, one, to get any thoughts you

00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:51.450
have on that, but two, I think labeling today.

00:23:52.650 --> 00:23:55.970
social media it's rampant on social media it's

00:23:55.970 --> 00:24:00.009
so easy to label demonize caricature politics

00:24:00.009 --> 00:24:04.970
is fueled by this kind of labeling you know good

00:24:04.970 --> 00:24:08.349
good guys bad guys it's all dualistic um and

00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:11.740
I think moving toward the common good, just my

00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:14.799
perspective, but it requires really moving beyond

00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:19.240
this labeling and seeing that even for non -Christians

00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:22.720
listening, seeing beauty, truth, and goodness

00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:27.599
in the other, daring to see that, that this person

00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.859
has a story just like me. This person has a heart

00:24:30.859 --> 00:24:33.759
and a mind just like me. This person is loved

00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:36.900
by God just like me. So do you have anything

00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:43.099
to add there? Well, you know, labeling has certainly

00:24:43.099 --> 00:24:49.039
been a part of the political discourse in the

00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:53.839
last few years. I mean, calling people garbage.

00:24:54.700 --> 00:24:59.299
You're calling people rapists and murderers and

00:24:59.299 --> 00:25:09.670
thugs and criminals without any evidence. Lawyers

00:25:09.670 --> 00:25:14.630
look for evidence. Why would you label somebody?

00:25:16.690 --> 00:25:23.470
Actually, it's the way the genocide over in Rwanda

00:25:23.470 --> 00:25:33.289
began. The Hutus and the Tutsis. The Hutus were...

00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:37.630
disseminating information, calling the Tutsis

00:25:37.630 --> 00:25:43.890
cucarachas. And, you know, after that, several

00:25:43.890 --> 00:25:49.890
months of that over the radio, people started

00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:53.309
to believe it. And that's really the danger.

00:25:53.950 --> 00:26:03.140
People believe the misinformation. Yeah. And

00:26:03.140 --> 00:26:08.079
it's easy. And I've certainly done this in my

00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:11.619
life, too. I mean, on a kind of subconscious

00:26:11.619 --> 00:26:15.720
level, it's easier to just believe the label

00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:21.779
than to do the hard work to see beauty, truth

00:26:21.779 --> 00:26:25.259
and goodness where you may least expect it. And

00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:31.079
this applies to the. If you're on the left, it

00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:33.339
applies to how you see people on the right. If

00:26:33.339 --> 00:26:35.240
you're on the right, it applies to how you see

00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:37.500
people on the left. So I'm not just speaking

00:26:37.500 --> 00:26:42.140
from one camp here. I mean, this is the Franciscan

00:26:42.140 --> 00:26:48.039
trajectory to experience Christ in the other.

00:26:48.579 --> 00:26:52.480
That can mean something different depending on

00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.559
who is other to you. The interesting thing is

00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:02.079
the more you come in contact, the more you come

00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:06.119
into community with the other, the less you see

00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.000
them as other. Yes, that's beautifully said.

00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:16.440
You begin to see them as a person before God.

00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:23.559
And, you know, that is certainly a Franciscan

00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:30.299
calling. And that's why it is so important for

00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:37.039
us to teach our children, you know, to come in

00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:44.299
contact with those who are on the margins, who

00:27:44.299 --> 00:27:48.940
now I'm in a safe way, and, you know, maybe who

00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:54.380
are other, maybe who cannot speak our language.

00:27:55.400 --> 00:28:01.200
Maybe who do not pray as we do. Maybe those who

00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:07.640
do not look as we do. You know, to experience

00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:15.019
the other is to come to see who they are. Beautiful.

00:28:15.339 --> 00:28:19.339
Yeah, I'd like to move toward your experiences

00:28:19.339 --> 00:28:23.339
as an immigration attorney. Can you share with

00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:27.140
me a story or two about people you've worked

00:28:27.140 --> 00:28:30.160
with and the impact that they have had on your

00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.460
own heart, your own mind? But then the purpose

00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:35.220
of sharing that story, I hope, is, you know,

00:28:35.259 --> 00:28:38.059
like I think it's exactly what you just said.

00:28:38.180 --> 00:28:43.460
It is to see these people, people on the margins,

00:28:43.579 --> 00:28:50.859
and to see them as they are. Yeah. Can you share

00:28:50.859 --> 00:28:56.059
a story or two with us? Well, you know, I've

00:28:56.059 --> 00:29:00.420
done a range of different things. I'm always

00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:05.140
happy to be able to work with someone who's getting

00:29:05.140 --> 00:29:11.839
citizenship. And they are so proud. They study

00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:17.549
so hard. It's like I had one guy. who wanted

00:29:17.549 --> 00:29:23.529
so badly to get his citizenship. Now, he was

00:29:23.529 --> 00:29:28.430
illiterate in his own language, but he had to

00:29:28.430 --> 00:29:32.250
know how to write English, an English sentence.

00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:37.269
He took the English words and he filled up sheet

00:29:37.269 --> 00:29:42.789
after sheet after sheet. Honestly, he must have

00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:48.829
written over a thousand. Over a thousand, excuse

00:29:48.829 --> 00:29:54.470
me, sentences. So that hopefully, you know, some

00:29:54.470 --> 00:29:56.829
of these words would come up in the sentence

00:29:56.829 --> 00:30:00.470
he had to write. Of course, it's a random sentence.

00:30:00.670 --> 00:30:04.150
It comes up from the computer. There's a list

00:30:04.150 --> 00:30:08.349
of like 200 words. And he finally did. He was

00:30:08.349 --> 00:30:14.440
like magnificently happy. I've also worked with

00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:22.220
both refugees and those seeking asylum. The main

00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:25.180
difference is the refugees are vetted outside

00:30:25.180 --> 00:30:29.299
the United States. Asylees come in and they do

00:30:29.299 --> 00:30:35.279
their application and defend their application

00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:40.220
inside the United States. I had one young lady.

00:30:40.420 --> 00:30:46.579
She was the daughter of the mistress of a guy

00:30:46.579 --> 00:30:52.200
who left, of course, left his mistress to be

00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:56.400
with another family. So she did not have his

00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:01.779
name. She was not really legitimate. Her mother

00:31:01.779 --> 00:31:06.279
died when she was 10 years old. So her dad, of

00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:10.049
course, found out. took her and put her with

00:31:10.049 --> 00:31:16.549
his first wife. She was treated as the maid.

00:31:17.349 --> 00:31:20.549
And so she did all kind of stuff. And of course,

00:31:20.549 --> 00:31:24.450
she can't read and write. Well, she did fall

00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:31.509
in love. She and she was quite young. I believe

00:31:31.509 --> 00:31:35.650
she was around 17. She had a tiny little house.

00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:39.299
He worked in the fields, and he would come home

00:31:39.299 --> 00:31:44.740
at night. They got pregnant. They had a child.

00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:49.500
She was deliriously happy. She was really, really

00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:52.680
happy. Until one night, he didn't come home.

00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:56.480
And two weeks later, he did come home, but he

00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.980
came with his half -brother. And he was very

00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:06.519
much afraid. He was crying. I didn't mean to

00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:11.359
do this. I didn't want to do this. So she didn't

00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:15.099
know exactly what he didn't want to do, but the

00:32:15.099 --> 00:32:18.619
next day he went away again, and he'd come back

00:32:18.619 --> 00:32:22.680
like every two weeks. Well, what happened is

00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:26.839
his half -brother was very much involved in drugs,

00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:35.390
and of course, you know, he ended up too. Half

00:32:35.390 --> 00:32:39.690
-brother was really kind of a leader, and of

00:32:39.690 --> 00:32:46.089
course he had guns and all that. Well, she, around

00:32:46.089 --> 00:32:49.470
January, between January and February, he came

00:32:49.470 --> 00:32:54.230
home for a month, and he was trying to break

00:32:54.230 --> 00:32:59.390
away. So during the day, she would go with the

00:32:59.390 --> 00:33:05.180
father, her father's mother, who was elder. He

00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:09.220
would go in the cemetery because he didn't want

00:33:09.220 --> 00:33:12.240
the half -brother to come in and find him. But

00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:15.359
of course, they came for him at night and took

00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:21.799
him. By April, he was arrested. He was taken

00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:27.960
to jail, drugs, with his brother, half -brother.

00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:34.039
All of a sudden, she gets a phone call. and she's

00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:39.059
told to come to the jail. Well, they have to

00:33:39.059 --> 00:33:41.720
pick her up and take her because she doesn't

00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:43.880
know how to read and write, and she doesn't know

00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:46.519
how to take a bus, and she doesn't have any money.

00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:52.599
All right, so she gets there, and her husband

00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:57.259
says, we're going to be in touch and do what

00:33:57.259 --> 00:34:03.440
we tell you. So she goes back home. Shortly after

00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:08.039
that, armed men come to the house with their

00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:13.380
guns. They hand her the phone, and her husband's

00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:16.699
on the other end, and he tells her, okay, we're

00:34:16.699 --> 00:34:19.940
going to leave you two satchels. You take these

00:34:19.940 --> 00:34:23.079
satchels, and you take the bus, and take the

00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:25.960
two kids with you, and you take them to this

00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:33.280
house. Well, the armed men, They got their guns

00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:37.179
out and said, this is what you do, and if you

00:34:37.179 --> 00:34:42.960
don't, you'll answer. Okay. So she goes, and

00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:46.800
she does that, and she comes back with two more

00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:51.019
satchels, which the guys pick up. A little while

00:34:51.019 --> 00:34:54.280
later, they come again, and she said, well, can't

00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:58.239
I do it without the kids? They got their guns

00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:01.219
out, put the guns to the kids' heads, and said,

00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:05.980
Okay, if you don't want to take the kids, we'll

00:35:05.980 --> 00:35:08.900
do away with them right now. Oh, no, no, no.

00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:14.579
She said, okay. Okay, I'll take the kids. So

00:35:14.579 --> 00:35:18.460
she ended up, she never opened the satchel. She

00:35:18.460 --> 00:35:23.300
was told not to. But she figured this is not

00:35:23.300 --> 00:35:29.159
a good thing. This is not a good thing. So she

00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:32.659
did that a number of times. a number of times

00:35:32.659 --> 00:35:35.639
because they threatened to kill her. They threatened

00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:38.579
to cut her tongue out. They threatened to kill

00:35:38.579 --> 00:35:41.719
the kids in front of her and cut them up in pieces.

00:35:42.579 --> 00:35:46.219
And they showed her on the phone a picture of

00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:50.780
a kid cut up in pieces. Lord have mercy. Gosh.

00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:57.840
She believed them. Okay. So finally, she goes

00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:03.079
to the house and she's... putting cookies into

00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:06.980
the satchel to come back for the kids. The kids

00:36:06.980 --> 00:36:11.659
are like two and four. So she's coming back,

00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:17.500
and when she put the cookies in, she saw money.

00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:23.579
So she's coming back, and she says, I don't want

00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:28.699
to do this. Why am I doing this? So in the middle

00:36:28.699 --> 00:36:33.769
of the run, She stops. She gets on, takes the

00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:37.289
two kids, goes to the base of the mountain because

00:36:37.289 --> 00:36:40.630
there's mountains there, leaves the backpacks,

00:36:40.670 --> 00:36:43.969
grabs a stack of money. She doesn't know how

00:36:43.969 --> 00:36:47.469
much it is. She can't count. She's never seen

00:36:47.469 --> 00:36:51.050
money like that before. She goes up into the

00:36:51.050 --> 00:36:54.210
mountains, and she stayed there for a day and

00:36:54.210 --> 00:36:59.619
a half, petrified that they would find her. So

00:36:59.619 --> 00:37:03.699
finally she decided, I can't stay here. If I

00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:08.719
do, they'll kill me and the kids. So she came

00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:15.780
up to the United States. Now, legally, I did

00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:21.280
a brief on that. And I found a case that was

00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:32.440
just perfect. who has escaped from indentured

00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:40.320
servitude. That is a valid PSG. So we went and

00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:47.980
we did the asylum case, but she lost. So I don't

00:37:47.980 --> 00:37:54.739
do appeals, but I appealed that one. The judge

00:37:54.739 --> 00:37:59.500
seemed to think there was no... fear of persecution.

00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:05.760
So it's very difficult for the people to get

00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:14.639
asylum. These are cases of people that are in

00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:20.559
dire straits. I mean, this is a mother thinking

00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:27.860
of her kids, little kids. Yeah, if that's not

00:38:27.860 --> 00:38:32.679
asylum, I don't know what is. Well, we'll see.

00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:38.199
Obviously, the threat would have been countrywide

00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:44.199
because obviously this was a network. And she

00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:50.380
was receiving orders directly from prison. So

00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:55.300
the government was not able to control. This

00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:59.260
particular group. Yeah. Yeah, and that's such

00:38:59.260 --> 00:39:02.019
an important story, Sister Suzanne. Thank you

00:39:02.019 --> 00:39:05.940
for sharing it. That story flips everything on

00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:12.360
its head. Like, you want people like that finding

00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:16.880
refuge in this country, no matter what the label

00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:20.780
of legal or illegal is. You know, I mean, that,

00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:25.679
yeah. She was legal. She entered the country

00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:30.139
and immediately asked for asylum. Okay, gotcha.

00:39:30.340 --> 00:39:36.159
That is what you are supposed to do. And she

00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:42.480
had fear of being persecuted should she be returned

00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:52.059
to her country. Petrified. In this second reflection,

00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.199
I would like us to sit with the story that Sister

00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:59.320
Suzanne just shared. The poet Muriel Rukeyser

00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:03.780
famously wrote that stories, not atoms, comprise

00:40:03.780 --> 00:40:08.980
the universe. That stories, not atoms, comprise

00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:13.639
the universe. How did Jesus teach? He told parables.

00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:18.949
He told stories. Stories open us up. They invite

00:40:18.949 --> 00:40:22.210
us to consider another perspective, to place

00:40:22.210 --> 00:40:25.610
ourselves in the shoes of someone else, to deepen

00:40:25.610 --> 00:40:30.070
our empathy and curiosity. The sacred reading

00:40:30.070 --> 00:40:33.210
and receiving of a story is a contemplative encounter.

00:40:33.730 --> 00:40:37.010
It invites us to see the person as they are,

00:40:37.150 --> 00:40:41.469
not by the ideas that we are defining them by,

00:40:41.630 --> 00:40:45.070
not by the labels that we are defining them by,

00:40:45.690 --> 00:40:49.349
but by the journey that they've gone on. Beneath

00:40:49.349 --> 00:40:53.429
every opinion is a story. Beneath every label,

00:40:53.570 --> 00:40:57.989
legal or illegal, Democrat or Republican, is

00:40:57.989 --> 00:41:02.150
a story. One of the reasons I've committed my

00:41:02.150 --> 00:41:05.710
vocation to storytelling is because of its transformative

00:41:05.710 --> 00:41:09.309
nature. Each story that I'm privileged to go

00:41:09.309 --> 00:41:12.090
out and gather, each interview I get to conduct

00:41:12.090 --> 00:41:17.420
with a subject In a very real way, it changes

00:41:17.420 --> 00:41:20.960
me. I'm not the same person after the interview

00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:24.159
or after writing the story that I was before.

00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:28.380
The creative process itself is its own spiritual

00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:31.619
invitation to go even deeper into the story that

00:41:31.619 --> 00:41:34.800
was shared. And then the hope, of course, is

00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.619
to tell that story in a way that might stir the

00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:40.539
heart of the reader just as it has stirred my

00:41:40.539 --> 00:41:45.300
own. It may sound idealistic, but I really do

00:41:45.300 --> 00:41:47.800
believe that if our consciousness as a country,

00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:54.019
as a society, had a deeper appreciation for story,

00:41:54.260 --> 00:41:59.320
it could heal all our brokenness. What's kind

00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:01.840
of funny is that our culture does value story.

00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:05.119
I mean, we'll binge Netflix into the late hours

00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:09.039
of the evening, completely consumed by a story.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.019
will go to Disney World or Universal and bask

00:42:13.019 --> 00:42:17.559
in elements of story. And yet, in our political

00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:20.400
discourse, it seems that we have grown too accustomed

00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:24.360
to defining one another by our ideas without

00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:27.719
any curiosity for where those ideas might come

00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:32.780
from. The story that Sister Suzanne shared invites

00:42:32.780 --> 00:42:36.260
me to humbly consider what my life might be like

00:42:36.260 --> 00:42:39.619
if I was born in a different country, or if I

00:42:39.619 --> 00:42:42.179
unknowingly found myself doing grunt work for

00:42:42.179 --> 00:42:45.219
a cartel for fear that they would murder my children.

00:42:46.139 --> 00:42:50.500
When she fled and miraculously escaped, her children

00:42:50.500 --> 00:42:54.880
were the same as mine are now, two and four.

00:42:56.239 --> 00:43:01.659
Lord, help us all. If she is sent back, Lord

00:43:01.659 --> 00:43:04.900
help us all if we become so self -focused as

00:43:04.900 --> 00:43:08.940
a country, so America first, that our hearts

00:43:08.940 --> 00:43:13.340
stop breaking. Now back to the conversation.

00:43:20.780 --> 00:43:23.860
What would you like to share about the legal

00:43:23.860 --> 00:43:27.039
side of things that you think is important for

00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:34.179
people to understand today? Well, today, legally,

00:43:34.699 --> 00:43:40.199
working with immigration is very, very difficult.

00:43:41.300 --> 00:43:47.719
You know, first of all, now this is in Minnesota.

00:43:48.510 --> 00:43:53.369
which prompted this particular podcast. But it's

00:43:53.369 --> 00:43:56.309
not only in Minnesota. It, of course, has been

00:43:56.309 --> 00:44:00.090
in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, and it's

00:44:00.090 --> 00:44:05.349
in other parts of the country. It's like you

00:44:05.349 --> 00:44:13.650
have people being taken. Some of them are offenders.

00:44:16.349 --> 00:44:20.230
You know, you need to look at the offenses. For

00:44:20.230 --> 00:44:27.849
some, it's a DUI way back in 2008. A DUI is serious.

00:44:27.949 --> 00:44:33.690
But remember, in 2008, all you got was a slap

00:44:33.690 --> 00:44:40.789
on the hand. The law has evolved since that time.

00:44:42.170 --> 00:44:46.230
There are no other violations from 2008 until

00:44:46.230 --> 00:44:54.090
now. So this is like 15, almost 20 years. Yeah.

00:44:54.269 --> 00:45:00.610
So now you are imputing criminal behavior to

00:45:00.610 --> 00:45:04.960
this person who made a mistake. turned their

00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:10.199
life around possibly is a very contributing member

00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:16.860
of the society. Has children, is married, and

00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:22.679
now is being deported. And the same thing, you

00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:29.300
know, with children. Even our criminal system.

00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:36.880
After 10 years, you can get stuff erased. You

00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:41.219
can get, after 10 years, they throw the UIs out.

00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:47.280
Not for immigration. Immigration, every deletion,

00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:51.840
every violation that you have is on your record

00:45:51.840 --> 00:46:00.059
forever. Even if you were a minor. Now, our system

00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:04.639
says, okay, minors, a lot of times, especially

00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:08.840
boys, you know, their neurons aren't connected.

00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:14.239
They, you know, they really cannot be as responsible

00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:18.579
as an adult would be. So you cut them a break.

00:46:18.900 --> 00:46:28.170
Not in immigration. Not in immigration. You know,

00:46:28.289 --> 00:46:34.909
with Obama, now, I worked under Obama, under

00:46:34.909 --> 00:46:38.730
Trump, under Biden, under Trump. With Obama,

00:46:38.989 --> 00:46:43.630
you knew what was going to happen with your client.

00:46:44.010 --> 00:46:47.989
You could advise your client. If your client

00:46:47.989 --> 00:46:54.809
had a national security threat or a major felony,

00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:59.159
you knew he was going to be jailed and then deported.

00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:05.380
And it's okay when you say, well, you know, actions

00:47:05.380 --> 00:47:11.679
have consequences. Okay? The second level down,

00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:17.900
if you have two or more substantial misdemeanors,

00:47:17.900 --> 00:47:25.429
okay, then you would be... That would be the

00:47:25.429 --> 00:47:30.150
second priority. The third priority are people

00:47:30.150 --> 00:47:39.150
that are here less than two years and have some

00:47:39.150 --> 00:47:44.130
kind of criminal activity. Then they would be

00:47:44.130 --> 00:47:49.980
the third. People who had been here. longer than

00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:54.219
two years, who have absolutely clean records,

00:47:54.579 --> 00:47:59.659
those people, they cut them a break. Sometimes

00:47:59.659 --> 00:48:03.280
they would let them go. Sometimes they were put

00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:12.340
in a court, but they could get bond. And they

00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:17.599
needed to resolve their case in some way. so

00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:20.739
that they were able to stay in the United States,

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:27.840
which makes sense, okay? You clearly were able

00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:32.219
to tell people what was going to go on. Yep.

00:48:33.260 --> 00:48:39.639
With this present administration, the goal is

00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:46.219
a quota. It doesn't make any difference how long

00:48:46.219 --> 00:48:48.739
you were here. It doesn't make any difference

00:48:48.739 --> 00:48:51.639
what your record shows. It doesn't even make

00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:55.340
any difference at times if you are a permanent

00:48:55.340 --> 00:48:59.000
resident or even citizens have been arrested

00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:04.659
and they've been kept in jail. Now, when they

00:49:04.659 --> 00:49:07.159
find out they're citizens, they let them go,

00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:10.059
but who knows how long that's going to take.

00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:15.980
Yeah, yes, yep. Okay? What they're looking for

00:49:15.980 --> 00:49:20.639
is numbers. We want numbers. It's interesting.

00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:26.320
Obama was considered the deporter -in -chief.

00:49:28.340 --> 00:49:35.900
Now ICE has quotas. Okay? They don't care. And

00:49:35.900 --> 00:49:40.579
this is a problem because they are put in jail.

00:49:41.900 --> 00:49:48.320
The Attorney General has arbitrarily changed

00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:53.800
the statute under which everybody is adjudicated.

00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:58.599
People who have just come into the country are

00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:04.599
adjudicated under 235, and they cannot have bond.

00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:10.800
If they are newly arrived, they, within two years,

00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:15.139
they are newly arrived, they, you know, if they

00:50:15.139 --> 00:50:18.559
have no reason to be here, they can be deported

00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:21.699
without bond. You know, if they've asked for

00:50:21.699 --> 00:50:25.059
asylum, then they need to adjudicate their asylum

00:50:25.059 --> 00:50:29.920
case while they're in prison. If you have been

00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:33.300
here longer than the two years, and especially

00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:39.000
if you have no danger of fleeing, so in other

00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.099
words, you have ties to the community, and if

00:50:42.099 --> 00:50:47.539
you have no danger of public safety, your record's

00:50:47.539 --> 00:50:55.420
clean, they can get bail. Bond, excuse me. The

00:50:55.420 --> 00:51:00.099
Attorney General says... No longer can they be

00:51:00.099 --> 00:51:05.840
adjudicated under 236. Everybody's under 235.

00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:13.480
So nobody can get bail, bond. Is that legal?

00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:16.380
How can you just make a change like that? Well,

00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:21.159
actually, it has been contested in court. And

00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:24.480
the courts have found that that is not legal.

00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:29.840
But the Attorney General says they must continue.

00:51:30.739 --> 00:51:34.639
Judges must continue, the immigration judges.

00:51:34.940 --> 00:51:37.800
See, the immigration judges are under the Attorney

00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:42.139
General. Your federal judges are under what's

00:51:42.139 --> 00:51:47.099
called Article III of the Constitution. So she

00:51:47.099 --> 00:51:52.280
has no control over the federal judges. And what's

00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:55.320
happening with immigration judges, ones who do

00:51:55.320 --> 00:52:03.659
judge according to the Constitution, the statute,

00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:13.159
they get fired. And they're putting in a judge

00:52:13.159 --> 00:52:19.659
advocate from the military. to be temporary judges.

00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:26.860
So the military attorneys are judging these cases.

00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:32.199
What qualifications do they have? The ramifications

00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:39.800
legally are horrendous. You have these huge holding

00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:43.179
prisons. We have one in Pennsylvania, Mooshannon.

00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:47.539
I just read an article in the paper. They are

00:52:47.539 --> 00:52:52.719
planning or they want to use two warehouses in,

00:52:52.739 --> 00:52:56.719
I think it's northeastern Pennsylvania, that

00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:59.380
they want to convert warehouses. They want to

00:52:59.380 --> 00:53:02.920
convert to this kind of holding prison where

00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:07.619
they have 2 ,000 inmates. And it is for profit.

00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:12.820
Owned by the government. These are for profit.

00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:19.519
So on the backs of the poor, people are getting

00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:25.780
rich. That's only one area. In terms of asylum,

00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:31.219
it's almost impossible to get asylum now. So

00:53:31.219 --> 00:53:35.400
that has shifted as well. Yes. Some of the case

00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:40.980
law. that had provided for asylum, particularly

00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:48.480
in terms of domestic violence, in terms of family,

00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:59.380
that it's been negated. How do you... I know

00:53:59.380 --> 00:54:03.030
a lot of people are just... So overwhelmed with

00:54:03.030 --> 00:54:05.829
everything happening right now. And you're in

00:54:05.829 --> 00:54:08.809
the thick of it, working with these people, seeing

00:54:08.809 --> 00:54:15.570
the changes in immigration law, changes happening

00:54:15.570 --> 00:54:21.230
overnight. Arbitrarily. Yes. Arbitrarily. Yeah.

00:54:21.369 --> 00:54:24.349
How do you keep going? How do you keep doing

00:54:24.349 --> 00:54:30.800
what you're doing? I really have to say 2025

00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:39.420
was the worst year for me in working with immigration

00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:45.400
law. Every week there would be a new—and nothing

00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:50.780
was good. It was always a disaster. It was always—

00:54:53.230 --> 00:54:58.110
It was always a very punitive thing. You know,

00:54:58.170 --> 00:55:04.409
I have to say, I was reading an article, one

00:55:04.409 --> 00:55:09.369
of the bishops who said, we are losing the soul

00:55:09.369 --> 00:55:22.329
of America in our 250th year. You know, to arbitrarily,

00:55:23.050 --> 00:55:28.309
against immigrants, against refugees. Now these

00:55:28.309 --> 00:55:36.110
are the lepers of the day. In Minnesota, their

00:55:36.110 --> 00:55:42.670
excuse for going into Minnesota is because they

00:55:42.670 --> 00:55:48.510
think the Somali population are corrupt. So they

00:55:48.510 --> 00:55:54.539
have this Paris policy. So they go and they take

00:55:54.539 --> 00:56:00.559
refugees and they interrogate them again, revet

00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:05.260
them. If they do not let ICE come into the house,

00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:10.760
then ICE sends them a letter that they have to

00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:18.440
come and present themselves for some kind of

00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:21.099
interview or something. Well, they have to go.

00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:26.079
And then they were arrested. One woman, actually,

00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:34.239
one woman was breastfeeding. New baby, five -month

00:56:34.239 --> 00:56:38.239
-old baby. And she was not only arrested, but

00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:41.840
she was sent to Texas for her vetting, for her

00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:46.440
interview. And they're asked the same questions

00:56:46.440 --> 00:56:51.230
that they had asked when they were vetted. Now,

00:56:51.289 --> 00:56:58.389
what is wrong with this picture? That you would

00:56:58.389 --> 00:57:04.429
take a nursing mother with a young child. What

00:57:04.429 --> 00:57:09.989
have we come to in our country? And would you

00:57:09.989 --> 00:57:17.000
say the horrific actions like that? are all in

00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:19.719
some way or another kind of flowing from what

00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.320
you said earlier, that need to hit a certain

00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:28.380
quota? Or what else is in this cocktail of decision

00:57:28.380 --> 00:57:32.960
-making that's leading to something so inhumane

00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:37.199
as that? Well, you know, there's a number of

00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:42.119
things. The quota is the arresting, vetting refugees

00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:48.309
is something different. That's what I say. It's

00:57:48.309 --> 00:57:51.590
like every Monday, every Monday there would be

00:57:51.590 --> 00:57:59.369
a new, very, very punishing thing come up in

00:57:59.369 --> 00:58:04.210
immigration law. When you thought, what else

00:58:04.210 --> 00:58:08.690
can they do? They would find something. And,

00:58:08.690 --> 00:58:14.420
you know, they're going after. children who came

00:58:14.420 --> 00:58:25.119
as minors and who have SIJ visas. Now, after

00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:27.960
a certain time, they can apply for a green card.

00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:31.260
They're going after them, especially the boys

00:58:31.260 --> 00:58:39.039
when they turn 18. But there was a law, a policy,

00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:44.530
a law that said, that they cannot do that even

00:58:44.530 --> 00:58:48.349
when they turn 18. But it is not being honored.

00:58:50.230 --> 00:58:55.130
That's what I'm saying. We are losing our soul.

00:58:55.730 --> 00:59:00.590
Yeah, yeah. And I want to make sure we're crystal

00:59:00.590 --> 00:59:05.670
clear here for anyone listening. You hit on this

00:59:05.670 --> 00:59:09.630
with everything. that you saw last year as an

00:59:09.630 --> 00:59:11.550
immigration attorney you said it was the worst

00:59:11.550 --> 00:59:15.809
year uh ever for you just what you're running

00:59:15.809 --> 00:59:19.789
up against day after day after day you you've

00:59:19.789 --> 00:59:22.650
never seen anything like this before correct

00:59:22.650 --> 00:59:26.070
this is unprecedented yeah it is unprecedented

00:59:26.070 --> 00:59:33.530
and it is not right morally morally as a country

00:59:33.530 --> 00:59:44.210
we we cannot Do this. In this final reflection,

00:59:44.349 --> 00:59:46.829
I wanted to return to what Sister Suzanne reminded

00:59:46.829 --> 00:59:50.590
us of, the fact that we will celebrate the 250th

00:59:50.590 --> 00:59:55.829
birthday of America this year. I love this country.

00:59:55.949 --> 00:59:59.369
I proudly celebrate the 4th of July every year.

00:59:59.510 --> 01:00:02.849
I proudly wear my United States Ryder Cup hat.

01:00:03.639 --> 01:00:06.039
I want to raise my children to have a deep gratitude

01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:08.340
for where they're from and the opportunities

01:00:08.340 --> 01:00:11.420
that they were afforded just by being born in

01:00:11.420 --> 01:00:14.400
this place. I want their love for their country

01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:17.219
to run so deep that they're willing to fight

01:00:17.219 --> 01:00:19.800
for it and stand up for ideas they believe will

01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:23.099
make the country better. The politicians in power

01:00:23.099 --> 01:00:26.360
who I didn't vote for, I hope they prove me wrong.

01:00:26.820 --> 01:00:31.699
I hope they succeed. This country's past is tattered

01:00:31.699 --> 01:00:35.820
and tragic. but so are most countries history

01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:40.940
is really really messy i love that the ideals

01:00:40.940 --> 01:00:45.280
the founders established are so high so seemingly

01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:48.519
unattainable that we are always pushing forward

01:00:48.519 --> 01:00:52.519
which sometimes requires pushing back and taking

01:00:52.519 --> 01:00:55.780
a stand and i love living in a place where i

01:00:55.780 --> 01:01:00.219
can voice my opinion, where I can criticize the

01:01:00.219 --> 01:01:03.760
government, where vehement debate can occur.

01:01:04.579 --> 01:01:07.980
I love looking back on the last 60 years, not

01:01:07.980 --> 01:01:11.719
even one lifetime, and thinking about the progress

01:01:11.719 --> 01:01:15.059
that has been made, while at the same time my

01:01:15.059 --> 01:01:17.760
heart simultaneously aches that this kind of

01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:22.800
progress took that long. There's a great quote

01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:26.039
from the hit musical Hamilton. a musical that

01:01:26.039 --> 01:01:28.300
I believe is brilliant at capturing the American

01:01:28.300 --> 01:01:32.960
spirit present at its founding and is important

01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:36.739
to recover today. At one point, Hamilton says,

01:01:36.940 --> 01:01:39.900
quote, America, you great unfinished symphony.

01:01:40.019 --> 01:01:43.219
You sent for me. You let me make a difference.

01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:46.679
A place where even orphan immigrants can leave

01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:51.650
their fingerprints and rise up. I've found that

01:01:51.650 --> 01:01:54.210
when I'm down about the state of affairs in this

01:01:54.210 --> 01:01:57.710
country that I love, I return to one of my favorite

01:01:57.710 --> 01:02:02.090
shows, The West Wing. I am that old person who

01:02:02.090 --> 01:02:05.250
now just watches reruns of West Wing and Seinfeld,

01:02:05.250 --> 01:02:10.230
it seems. And yes, West Wing is kind of idealistic.

01:02:10.409 --> 01:02:13.550
It probably doesn't come close to capturing the

01:02:13.550 --> 01:02:17.969
darkness and corruption in modern politics. But

01:02:17.969 --> 01:02:21.630
I personally love the idealism. It gives me hope.

01:02:21.889 --> 01:02:24.909
It reminds me of the goodness of people and the

01:02:24.909 --> 01:02:29.050
impact that good people can make. The show written

01:02:29.050 --> 01:02:32.769
by Aaron Sorkin is also prophetic. In the pilot

01:02:32.769 --> 01:02:35.530
of the show, there are hundreds of Cubans escaping

01:02:35.530 --> 01:02:39.809
across the Atlantic in search of freedom, while

01:02:39.809 --> 01:02:42.469
the governor of Florida wants to blockade the

01:02:42.469 --> 01:02:46.119
port of Miami. And at one point, Jed Bartlett,

01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:48.519
the president of the United States, played by

01:02:48.519 --> 01:02:51.900
Martin Sheen, is talking to his staff. And he

01:02:51.900 --> 01:02:55.559
says, quote, with the clothes on their backs,

01:02:55.719 --> 01:02:59.420
they came through a storm. And those that didn't

01:02:59.420 --> 01:03:03.179
die want a better life. And they want it here.

01:03:03.880 --> 01:03:09.039
Talk about impressive. Now back to the conversation.

01:03:15.849 --> 01:03:21.750
How do we get back that soul of America? How

01:03:21.750 --> 01:03:26.130
do we start moving toward healing again? What

01:03:26.130 --> 01:03:31.130
has to happen? Well, you know, we need comprehensive

01:03:31.130 --> 01:03:39.889
immigration reform. In 2013, the Senate passed

01:03:39.889 --> 01:03:45.210
a reform bill. The House would not pick it up.

01:03:47.259 --> 01:03:52.519
Now, it's really unfortunate. It is really unfortunate.

01:03:53.039 --> 01:04:00.360
It gave tons of money for border security, billions.

01:04:00.860 --> 01:04:04.679
But it also gave people with certain requisites,

01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:08.119
people that had been here a number of years,

01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:14.050
people that had clean records. punish them in

01:04:14.050 --> 01:04:17.849
the sense that they would have to pay a certain

01:04:17.849 --> 01:04:24.750
amount of money, a couple thousand dollars, to

01:04:24.750 --> 01:04:31.550
be able to have a pass to get a green card. And

01:04:31.550 --> 01:04:37.469
it would take something like 10, 13 years. Like,

01:04:37.469 --> 01:04:40.389
this was not something that, okay, tomorrow,

01:04:40.730 --> 01:04:44.829
okay, we'll give you a green card for sale for

01:04:44.829 --> 01:04:50.190
so many thousands. No. This was over time. So,

01:04:50.309 --> 01:04:54.809
you know, you even had time to make sure of the

01:04:54.809 --> 01:04:58.269
good moral character of people. Yeah. And I'm

01:04:58.269 --> 01:05:01.289
not talking about, you know, I'm not talking

01:05:01.289 --> 01:05:05.230
about a misdemeanor, you know, somebody, you

01:05:05.230 --> 01:05:09.840
know. got drunk and got in the fight in the bar

01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:14.019
or something like that. And then they ended up

01:05:14.019 --> 01:05:17.960
paying for the damage. And I mean, you know,

01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:24.159
that's stupidity. But it doesn't mean that you

01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:27.880
are now a bad person. Yeah, and you hit on this

01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:33.780
earlier, too. But one of the seeming unprecedented

01:05:33.780 --> 01:05:38.000
things that's been unfolding under this current

01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:43.360
administration is the way ICE has been utilized

01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:46.659
to carry out some of this stuff. Can you dive

01:05:46.659 --> 01:05:48.940
into that a little bit? What is the history of

01:05:48.940 --> 01:05:52.679
ICE, and how has it changed under this current

01:05:52.679 --> 01:05:56.760
administration? Well, you know, ICE, I believe,

01:05:56.980 --> 01:06:04.849
came into existence with the Patriot Act. You

01:06:04.849 --> 01:06:12.630
know, before 9 -11, you know, before 9 -11, our

01:06:12.630 --> 01:06:17.769
border with Mexico was quite porous. I have one

01:06:17.769 --> 01:06:23.690
client who crossed the border at the Chihuahua.

01:06:23.690 --> 01:06:27.650
See, you know, there's El Paso and Chihuahua.

01:06:27.650 --> 01:06:33.449
Both of those, you know, are gates. Well, she

01:06:33.449 --> 01:06:37.630
came with her son and entered. There was nobody

01:06:37.630 --> 01:06:44.150
there. It was 1999. There was no one. They just

01:06:44.150 --> 01:06:48.889
entered through the gate, you know, free. Now,

01:06:48.989 --> 01:06:57.630
after the Saudis came over with visas and learned

01:06:57.630 --> 01:07:02.989
how to fly airplanes in the buildings, The Patriot

01:07:02.989 --> 01:07:08.289
Act, you know, said we better, you know, spruce

01:07:08.289 --> 01:07:12.449
up our borders. We better seal them. Okay. So

01:07:12.449 --> 01:07:16.210
that's when the Department of Homeland Security

01:07:16.210 --> 01:07:22.469
began. Okay. Before that, I believe it was the

01:07:22.469 --> 01:07:28.530
INS. But what you had, the Homeland Security

01:07:28.530 --> 01:07:32.260
has three different branches. You have the Visa

01:07:32.260 --> 01:07:36.300
Section, which is separate, Border Patrol, which

01:07:36.300 --> 01:07:40.820
is separate, and ICE, which is Immigration and

01:07:40.820 --> 01:07:45.539
Customs Enforcement. Okay? So that's what it

01:07:45.539 --> 01:07:49.460
came into being. Now, my experience with ICE

01:07:49.460 --> 01:07:54.860
as an attorney, you know, I knew a number of

01:07:54.860 --> 01:07:59.059
ICE agents. And, you know, during the Obama,

01:07:59.300 --> 01:08:04.460
no. Of course, we complained that they would

01:08:04.460 --> 01:08:10.780
sit outside down the block from different houses

01:08:10.780 --> 01:08:13.719
at 6 o 'clock in the morning. And when the workers

01:08:13.719 --> 01:08:18.300
came out to get picked up or to go to work, they

01:08:18.300 --> 01:08:20.340
would come and they would take them. And they

01:08:20.340 --> 01:08:26.640
were undocumented, so they were put into court.

01:08:27.079 --> 01:08:31.619
And they would go through the process. And, you

01:08:31.619 --> 01:08:35.600
know, some were deported. Some were able, you

01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:39.760
know, to get some kind of remedy. Now, the ICE

01:08:39.760 --> 01:08:45.520
agents had no vest. I'm sure they had guns, but

01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:49.140
they weren't showing their guns. It's like they

01:08:49.140 --> 01:08:53.180
didn't come like a military force. Yeah. Black

01:08:53.180 --> 01:08:58.960
jackets and everything. Now, they are. coming

01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:03.439
as a military force. They are doing what military

01:09:03.439 --> 01:09:07.760
do, pulling people out of cars, you know, breaking

01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:13.840
car windows, forcefully entering homes. And that

01:09:13.840 --> 01:09:18.640
itself is against the Fourth Amendment. Forcefully

01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:24.500
entering homes without a judicial warrant. And

01:09:24.500 --> 01:09:33.220
the Homeland Security. person said, oh, you don't

01:09:33.220 --> 01:09:36.859
need one. There's a memo that's been in existence

01:09:36.859 --> 01:09:42.140
since July of last year that says you no longer

01:09:42.140 --> 01:09:47.520
need one. That's not legal. That's going against

01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:55.220
the Constitution. You can't do that. For America,

01:09:55.340 --> 01:10:00.439
your home is your castle. Your home is sacred.

01:10:02.899 --> 01:10:13.939
So just the whole purview of these ICE raids

01:10:13.939 --> 01:10:17.760
takes on a whole... And, you know, no wonder

01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:24.039
that there was the response that you had in Minnesota.

01:10:24.819 --> 01:10:30.210
You had... ICE agents coming in, and you had

01:10:30.210 --> 01:10:34.810
National Guard coming in with guns. And you have

01:10:34.810 --> 01:10:40.270
this armed group coming into your city. Well,

01:10:40.569 --> 01:10:46.069
you as citizens, of course, they were incensed.

01:10:46.510 --> 01:10:53.350
You will not come in here like this. And who

01:10:53.350 --> 01:10:59.180
got shot? Who had the guns? Right. Who got shot?

01:10:59.340 --> 01:11:03.779
This was not protesters waving their guns at

01:11:03.779 --> 01:11:08.340
ICE. This was ICE waving its guns at U .S. citizens.

01:11:08.960 --> 01:11:16.380
Yeah. Yeah, what do you... I've heard this argument

01:11:16.380 --> 01:11:28.649
from people who either back or... justify these

01:11:28.649 --> 01:11:33.270
kind of actions say for example an ice raid well

01:11:33.270 --> 01:11:36.489
i've heard the argument you don't get the fourth

01:11:36.489 --> 01:11:40.850
amendment if you're illegal what would you say

01:11:40.850 --> 01:11:42.670
to what would you how would you respond to that

01:11:42.670 --> 01:11:45.829
argument the fourth amendment you certainly do

01:11:45.829 --> 01:11:51.869
yeah yep in terms of your home now it's very

01:11:51.869 --> 01:11:57.899
hard It's very hard to use the Fourth Amendment

01:11:57.899 --> 01:12:06.680
if I pick someone up in the street. But to go

01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:13.539
into a home, you need a judicial warrant. And

01:12:13.539 --> 01:12:21.479
that's the law. Yeah. And respond to this argument

01:12:21.479 --> 01:12:24.149
as well. I'll try to steel man this a little

01:12:24.149 --> 01:12:33.489
bit, but the person who says, yes, these deportations,

01:12:33.489 --> 01:12:37.229
the broken immigration system, everything, the

01:12:37.229 --> 01:12:43.930
militant means of ICE, this has all become messy.

01:12:44.649 --> 01:12:50.569
However, that's going to happen inevitably. because

01:12:50.569 --> 01:12:54.250
of everyone who came across the border under

01:12:54.250 --> 01:12:57.689
the previous administration. What would your

01:12:57.689 --> 01:13:04.409
response be to that argument? Well, there may

01:13:04.409 --> 01:13:10.149
be a huge number who have come across the border,

01:13:10.310 --> 01:13:19.970
but they're people and they're fleeing. And you

01:13:19.970 --> 01:13:25.229
look at what they have. They're not bringing

01:13:25.229 --> 01:13:31.909
Amani suitcases and coming in flying and asking

01:13:31.909 --> 01:13:40.850
for upscale housing, as some refugees from South

01:13:40.850 --> 01:13:48.010
Africa are. Now, they might not be able to stay.

01:13:50.090 --> 01:13:56.090
But you know, we cannot become a country that,

01:13:56.149 --> 01:14:04.310
you know, a country that loses our moral value,

01:14:04.609 --> 01:14:13.569
our moral sense. Obama deported thousands, thousands.

01:14:14.470 --> 01:14:21.329
That's what you do. There is certainly a refugee

01:14:21.329 --> 01:14:27.569
crisis in our world. There are people really

01:14:27.569 --> 01:14:33.109
fleeing persecution in many parts. We cannot

01:14:33.109 --> 01:14:38.109
take care of them all. This is true. But we can

01:14:38.109 --> 01:14:45.109
treat people with dignity. Yeah, what would you...

01:14:47.500 --> 01:14:50.680
There are some Catholics, big -time decision

01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:55.079
-makers in this administration. J .D. Vance,

01:14:55.319 --> 01:14:59.579
I'm not sure if Mike Johnson's Catholic, but

01:14:59.579 --> 01:15:03.800
he's a strong Christian, he says. Marco Rubio,

01:15:03.979 --> 01:15:07.819
I mean, the bishops have come out with a letter.

01:15:08.479 --> 01:15:12.260
A lot of religious have come out taking a stand

01:15:12.260 --> 01:15:16.220
here. What would your message be to this current

01:15:16.220 --> 01:15:19.039
administration as an immigration attorney and

01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:23.300
a Franciscan sister about how you have seen this

01:15:23.300 --> 01:15:30.659
radically change under this administration? Well,

01:15:30.659 --> 01:15:36.819
I think Marco would be at least as an attorney.

01:15:37.760 --> 01:15:42.890
I'm not sure if Vance is. But I would say, you

01:15:42.890 --> 01:15:47.210
know, some of the efforts of the administration

01:15:47.210 --> 01:15:53.170
are not legal. And that needs to be attended

01:15:53.170 --> 01:15:59.310
to because it's a slippery slope. And once we

01:15:59.310 --> 01:16:10.720
go into the illegality, it is going to... We

01:16:10.720 --> 01:16:18.199
will lose our soul. We will lose our soul. America

01:16:18.199 --> 01:16:27.520
had been established on certain values. Freedom,

01:16:27.619 --> 01:16:37.119
the right to do the right thing, liberty, the

01:16:37.119 --> 01:16:45.750
work ethic. When you look at the woodsmen that

01:16:45.750 --> 01:16:50.850
traveled across the United States and tried to

01:16:50.850 --> 01:16:54.409
make it a land that would produce and a land

01:16:54.409 --> 01:16:58.529
that would bring fruit and allow them to live,

01:16:58.789 --> 01:17:02.890
it was a land where people came together in community

01:17:02.890 --> 01:17:08.699
and cared for each other. This is not what you

01:17:08.699 --> 01:17:18.380
see in so much of the legality of this administration.

01:17:19.619 --> 01:17:25.359
Where is the common good? Does getting rid of

01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:29.260
all immigrants make the United States better?

01:17:31.430 --> 01:17:35.369
You know, I could go into the economy. You know,

01:17:35.390 --> 01:17:40.210
there have been studies that were done. Actually,

01:17:40.289 --> 01:17:47.369
look at some of the cities. Littleton in Pennsylvania,

01:17:47.630 --> 01:17:51.510
where there was an immigrant community. The small

01:17:51.510 --> 01:17:59.130
businesses, a town, a tiny town that was certainly...

01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:07.720
you know, not active, you might say dying, all

01:18:07.720 --> 01:18:13.720
of a sudden rejuvenated. They say the same thing

01:18:13.720 --> 01:18:20.840
of, oh, there's this town right outside of Pittsburgh,

01:18:21.560 --> 01:18:27.520
Manessen, Manessen or that area with the Haitians.

01:18:27.960 --> 01:18:31.560
who came in. And the people in the town have

01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:35.779
said this. You know, they have made our town

01:18:35.779 --> 01:18:41.399
better. You could argue, but among them you have

01:18:41.399 --> 01:18:46.439
criminals. Well, look at the United States. Among

01:18:46.439 --> 01:18:51.180
the citizens, we have criminals. And yes, they

01:18:51.180 --> 01:18:54.760
should be deported. And yes, they should be adjudicated.

01:18:54.960 --> 01:19:00.909
They should... But you can't say, okay, so now

01:19:00.909 --> 01:19:04.029
everybody who's Haitian is a criminal. Everybody

01:19:04.029 --> 01:19:09.210
who is from whatever country is now a criminal.

01:19:09.529 --> 01:19:15.010
You can't do that. That is not accurate. That

01:19:15.010 --> 01:19:23.229
is not correct. Yeah, and I'm always so baffled

01:19:23.229 --> 01:19:30.819
by... like i it's what you said i think most

01:19:30.819 --> 01:19:33.239
americans and i think the data backs us up that

01:19:33.239 --> 01:19:37.600
most americans are completely okay with deporting

01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:43.079
criminals um and but then this administration

01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:46.159
i'll try not to go on a soapbox but they they

01:19:46.159 --> 01:19:50.840
always take things too far To the point that

01:19:50.840 --> 01:19:54.119
it doesn't even benefit them. And I think the

01:19:54.119 --> 01:19:56.960
polling is coming out and showing that now. And

01:19:56.960 --> 01:20:00.460
so I'm hopeful that they change course. But this

01:20:00.460 --> 01:20:03.380
in and of course, this is the administration

01:20:03.380 --> 01:20:06.220
that we have right now. But we've seen this on

01:20:06.220 --> 01:20:08.819
the left, too, where, you know, it's just there's

01:20:08.819 --> 01:20:12.539
a lot of 80 20 issues that Americans are completely

01:20:12.539 --> 01:20:15.520
on board for something. But then it just gets

01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:20.430
taken too far. And I. I don't understand how,

01:20:20.470 --> 01:20:23.069
I don't know how we get out of the cycle in America

01:20:23.069 --> 01:20:27.890
where it's just this, it's a spiraling into what

01:20:27.890 --> 01:20:31.609
you said, losing the soul of America when we,

01:20:31.689 --> 01:20:34.989
it's always, you know, every, it's not even that

01:20:34.989 --> 01:20:37.649
every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction.

01:20:37.890 --> 01:20:42.409
It's like every action has a more severe reaction.

01:20:42.590 --> 01:20:45.350
And then that reaction has a more severe reaction.

01:20:45.510 --> 01:20:49.479
And it's just, uh, I, I. We're in an interesting

01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:53.699
spot here in the history of our country, to say

01:20:53.699 --> 01:20:56.199
the least. Do you have any thoughts on that?

01:20:57.079 --> 01:21:00.539
Well, you know, I look at what happened in Minnesota,

01:21:00.699 --> 01:21:07.039
and I admire those people who did something.

01:21:08.079 --> 01:21:13.039
Protesters. They came out in freezing weather,

01:21:13.180 --> 01:21:18.329
and they said to ICE, We will not accept this.

01:21:19.930 --> 01:21:24.869
We do not accept this. And of course they paid.

01:21:25.329 --> 01:21:31.109
Two citizens were killed. That this is wrong.

01:21:32.130 --> 01:21:35.829
Why? Because these people are our neighbors.

01:21:36.550 --> 01:21:42.590
They go to school with our kids. They buy from

01:21:42.590 --> 01:21:50.970
our businesses. I mean, you know, it's the common

01:21:50.970 --> 01:21:55.390
good. This is not right. There was a town, now

01:21:55.390 --> 01:21:58.029
this is a number of years ago. This has to be

01:21:58.029 --> 01:22:02.590
about five years ago. There was a town up in

01:22:02.590 --> 01:22:09.529
the Midwest where the guy owned a restaurant.

01:22:11.069 --> 01:22:15.819
And he had like seven kids. The kids went to

01:22:15.819 --> 01:22:19.159
school. You know, some of them, a number of them

01:22:19.159 --> 01:22:26.899
were born here. Okay. He was a staple to the

01:22:26.899 --> 01:22:31.760
community. He had been here 30 years. He provided

01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:37.619
for the police. You know, he would once a year

01:22:37.619 --> 01:22:41.060
have the celebration for the police. Everybody

01:22:41.060 --> 01:22:45.689
knew him. And, you know, maybe not personally,

01:22:45.810 --> 01:22:50.869
but everyone knew, oh, yeah, yeah. He was deported.

01:22:51.229 --> 01:22:55.850
And the people in the town, everybody signed

01:22:55.850 --> 01:23:02.270
a letter asking ICE not to do it. They did it

01:23:02.270 --> 01:23:12.369
anyway. Now, you know, my favorite expression,

01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:16.460
What is wrong with this picture? I believe we

01:23:16.460 --> 01:23:21.800
have gone down a notch on, what is it, the liberty

01:23:21.800 --> 01:23:28.720
scale. We have gone down. In the view of other

01:23:28.720 --> 01:23:36.720
countries, you know, there is danger that we

01:23:36.720 --> 01:23:42.100
will lose our soul. Do you think we've lost it

01:23:42.100 --> 01:23:53.500
already? I think when I see people in Minnesota

01:23:53.500 --> 01:24:00.380
braving the freezing weather, I think that there

01:24:00.380 --> 01:24:13.590
is a lot of spirit. You know, the founding values

01:24:13.590 --> 01:24:21.010
are not gone, particularly Midwestern. That,

01:24:21.010 --> 01:24:25.390
you know, that helping, you know, having a neighbor,

01:24:25.470 --> 01:24:29.369
helping your neighbor. You know, there may be

01:24:29.369 --> 01:24:41.149
areas where we are. I suspect this administration

01:24:41.149 --> 01:24:50.869
has lost the value. Well, Sister Suzanne, we

01:24:50.869 --> 01:24:55.770
have covered a lot of ground here. What did we

01:24:55.770 --> 01:25:00.829
miss? Do you have anything else to add? Gee,

01:25:00.970 --> 01:25:03.329
we have covered, we really have covered a lot

01:25:03.329 --> 01:25:09.189
of ground. I think what we need. One thing we

01:25:09.189 --> 01:25:15.130
need to do in prayer and in reflection, deep,

01:25:15.229 --> 01:25:21.270
profound reflection, we need to put aside politics

01:25:21.270 --> 01:25:29.130
and search our hearts and our communities for

01:25:29.130 --> 01:25:33.909
the values that last. For me, of course, a lot

01:25:33.909 --> 01:25:37.689
of them are values that you find in Franciscanism.

01:25:38.109 --> 01:25:42.989
But I suspect that those values, the dignity

01:25:42.989 --> 01:25:47.130
of the human person, the value of the common

01:25:47.130 --> 01:25:52.909
good, even the international common good, just

01:25:52.909 --> 01:25:57.869
are... our neighbors, not just our states, not

01:25:57.869 --> 01:26:01.670
just our country, the international common good

01:26:01.670 --> 01:26:07.670
of our allies, of our neighbors, of civil discourse,

01:26:08.090 --> 01:26:13.289
even with those who are not our allies. That,

01:26:13.470 --> 01:26:21.069
you know, those are all values that I think in

01:26:21.069 --> 01:26:26.000
our heart of hearts. we need to find yeah and

01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:29.079
you mentioned it we're we're about to celebrate

01:26:29.079 --> 01:26:33.340
the 250 year anniversary of the founding of this

01:26:33.340 --> 01:26:37.359
country and our founders of course were deeply

01:26:37.359 --> 01:26:41.880
flawed as we are as we all are however they were

01:26:41.880 --> 01:26:47.779
absolutely brilliant in articulating values and

01:26:47.779 --> 01:26:52.600
ideals that we should strive for and I would

01:26:52.600 --> 01:26:55.699
invite anyone listening and myself as well to

01:26:55.699 --> 01:27:00.420
really think and contemplate those values this

01:27:00.420 --> 01:27:05.199
year and to ask the hard questions like how have

01:27:05.199 --> 01:27:08.199
we lost those? How are we maybe drifting away

01:27:08.199 --> 01:27:12.369
from them? How beautiful would it be in a year

01:27:12.369 --> 01:27:15.449
that we celebrate the 250 -year birthday of America

01:27:15.449 --> 01:27:18.869
that we bring these values to the surface again

01:27:18.869 --> 01:27:22.289
in discourse, in policy, in law, in education?

01:27:22.810 --> 01:27:25.909
I mean, do you have anything to add there? Well,

01:27:26.029 --> 01:27:30.050
you know, I think what you said is true about

01:27:30.050 --> 01:27:33.689
the brilliance of our founding fathers and the

01:27:33.689 --> 01:27:37.069
documents that they wrote, but we need to remember.

01:27:38.319 --> 01:27:44.840
There was a lot of conflict there, but they were

01:27:44.840 --> 01:27:48.800
able to resolve it, and everyone had to give.

01:27:50.060 --> 01:27:53.899
And they were able to do that, and the only reason

01:27:53.899 --> 01:27:59.899
they did that, for the common good. Yeah. Beautiful.

01:27:59.899 --> 01:28:04.779
For our country, because this is more important

01:28:04.779 --> 01:28:14.720
than my own. or my own presentation. And we need

01:28:14.720 --> 01:28:20.939
to learn how to give. Yeah, and they put their

01:28:20.939 --> 01:28:25.420
lives on the line for the common good. And they

01:28:25.420 --> 01:28:27.619
did it together, everybody. They did it together.

01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:30.859
Well, I don't like this part, so I'm not going

01:28:30.859 --> 01:28:35.770
to sign. Yep. And they did it knowing that they

01:28:35.770 --> 01:28:39.489
may not ever see the fruits of what they were

01:28:39.489 --> 01:28:45.409
envisioning. I mean, that is, yeah, that, but

01:28:45.409 --> 01:28:50.050
talk about the common good. I mean, they saw

01:28:50.050 --> 01:28:53.250
that, they saw that knowing and were willing

01:28:53.250 --> 01:28:57.569
to die for it. I just think, I think it's so

01:28:57.569 --> 01:29:00.960
important to remember. this year. I wanted to

01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:04.079
conclude with your closing paragraph in your

01:29:04.079 --> 01:29:07.579
2024 St. Anthony Messenger article. It really

01:29:07.579 --> 01:29:13.079
ties things together nicely. And you write, immigration

01:29:13.079 --> 01:29:16.479
law is complex, as is our immigration situation

01:29:16.479 --> 01:29:19.939
today. There's no easy remedy that will resolve

01:29:19.939 --> 01:29:22.460
our immigration system as there's no easy solution

01:29:22.460 --> 01:29:25.680
for the complex causes of migration. But there

01:29:25.680 --> 01:29:28.319
is need for a Franciscan stance that can mitigate

01:29:28.319 --> 01:29:31.000
the harshness of our country's immigration laws.

01:29:31.420 --> 01:29:34.380
It is my hope that the Franciscan tradition helps

01:29:34.380 --> 01:29:37.300
shine light on the path forward for work and

01:29:37.300 --> 01:29:40.159
immigration, a calling that is deeply tied to

01:29:40.159 --> 01:29:42.840
our identity and vocation as Franciscans today.

01:29:43.960 --> 01:29:47.079
You wrote that almost two years ago. So I guess

01:29:47.079 --> 01:29:50.460
my final question is, when we think about this

01:29:50.460 --> 01:29:55.979
path that hopefully our founding values that

01:29:55.979 --> 01:29:58.260
we've been talking about and the Franciscan vision

01:29:58.260 --> 01:30:03.039
helps to light up in front of us, what's the

01:30:03.039 --> 01:30:06.579
next step here for listeners? What is the path

01:30:06.579 --> 01:30:09.600
forward right now in this current state that

01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:14.090
we're in as a country? I think in terms of immigration,

01:30:14.550 --> 01:30:20.409
we need to do a complete reform. We need to look

01:30:20.409 --> 01:30:24.390
at that. And it needs to be a reform that is

01:30:24.390 --> 01:30:31.090
not punitive. We need to do a reform that will

01:30:31.090 --> 01:30:36.649
look for the best interest of our country. And

01:30:36.649 --> 01:30:40.710
the best interest, you know, of course, include

01:30:40.710 --> 01:30:44.350
the common good. You know, what will make our

01:30:44.350 --> 01:30:49.510
country better? What will make it more alive?

01:30:49.630 --> 01:30:55.130
What will bring the spirit back? You know, what

01:30:55.130 --> 01:31:02.010
will... We need to rejuvenate here after 250

01:31:02.010 --> 01:31:07.039
years. The comprehensive immigration reform.

01:31:07.399 --> 01:31:13.340
And you cannot just do it on a political divide.

01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:18.520
It's got to be a give and take. It's got to be

01:31:18.520 --> 01:31:22.500
the kind of politics that our founding fathers

01:31:22.500 --> 01:31:27.279
were willing to engage in. And the kind that,

01:31:27.340 --> 01:31:32.239
really, after World War II. our senators, our

01:31:32.239 --> 01:31:37.619
representatives, with civil discourse. This is

01:31:37.619 --> 01:31:41.720
the kind of thing that we need. Well, I know

01:31:41.720 --> 01:31:44.520
you're very busy, Sister Suzanne, and I really

01:31:44.520 --> 01:31:47.819
appreciate you taking the time to share your

01:31:47.819 --> 01:31:51.680
expertise, your stories, your theology. This

01:31:51.680 --> 01:31:53.800
has been a really inspiring conversation, so

01:31:53.800 --> 01:32:02.640
thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Once

01:32:02.640 --> 01:32:05.880
again, that was Sister Suzanne Susanee. A huge

01:32:05.880 --> 01:32:08.380
thank you to Sister Suzanne for sharing her wisdom

01:32:08.380 --> 01:32:11.600
and expertise with us, and to Father Ciprian

01:32:11.600 --> 01:32:14.159
Concilio as well for providing the intro and

01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:18.260
outro music for this podcast. I have linked to

01:32:18.260 --> 01:32:20.760
a number of helpful articles and resources in

01:32:20.760 --> 01:32:23.479
the show notes of this episode. Those detailed

01:32:23.479 --> 01:32:27.300
show notes can be found at franciscanmedia .org.

01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:30.960
Thank you for tuning in, and thanks as always

01:32:30.960 --> 01:32:34.220
for your support. This is Stephen Copeland signing

01:32:34.220 --> 01:32:37.199
off. Peace and all good.