Welcome to Franciscan Spirit. It's great to be
with you. To say the least, there's a lot going
on in the world. But one of the issues that has
dominated the headlines domestically here in
the United States is immigration. And this administration's
approach to deportation in particular. I have
found myself approaching this issue curiously,
but also cautiously. I always want to guard myself
from being overly reactive, particularly when
so often it seems like this reactivity and rage
is what is driving our social media algorithms
as well as political campaigns. But still, I
have wondered. In other words, I've wondered...
what about this current administration's approach
is truly unorthodox and unprecedented. But most
importantly, I've thought to myself, how do my
own Christian and Franciscan values guide me
in an issue that seems incredibly complex and
nuanced? And yet, at the same time, crystal clear
when it comes to human dignity and the importance
of going into and listening to people on the
margins. Theologically I think it's pretty difficult
to justify turning anyone away who is seeking
a better life for themselves and their families.
But I also understand the practical reality that
countries need strong institutions and systems
and protocols to function in an efficient, safe,
and orderly way. We get into all this and more
in this episode of Franciscan Spirit. I cannot
think of a better person to discuss these delicate
topics than this episode's guest, Suzanne Susany.
Sister Suzanne, OSF of the Sisters of St. Francis
of the Newman Communities, is an immigration
lawyer who lives and works in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
After a number of twists and turns in her career,
Sister Suzanne attained a degree in law from
Duquesne University in 2010. Sister Suzanne is
on the front lines of this issue and deals firsthand
with immigrants seeking refuge in the United
States. Her voice, you'll find, is wise, poised,
contemplative, but I also really appreciated
how candid she was about her experiences these
last couple years, particularly about some of
the disturbing shifts in the legal realm that,
in my opinion, would cause our very founding
fathers to be extremely concerned. To our international
listeners, and I know there are a lot of you,
though this episode is United States -centric,
I do hope it's insightful as you navigate your
own political issues in your own countries and
the importance of elevating the Franciscan spirit
today as we process what is happening around
us. This was recorded, I'll say, on February
10th, before everything that has broken out in
the Middle East. Even more of a reason, I think,
to publish this episode now. Today's politics
is marked by very real consequential issues,
but also distraction. I think we should keep
very important issues in our public consciousness
and not allow it to dissolve into the hectic
news cycle. I have provided reflection segments
throughout this episode, and again, these are
opportunities to pause and sit and contemplate
something a guest has said, or to go deeper into
an important theme in the conversation. So, without
further ado, here is Sister Suzanne Susanee.
Enjoy. Sister Suzanne, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Stephen. I'm pleased to be here. Yeah,
I really appreciate you taking the time. You're
a very important voice in this realm of immigration.
You're an immigration attorney, a Franciscan
sister. Could we begin there? Can you tell listeners
a little bit about your background in both the
religious space and then the law attorney space
as well? of just wanting to be a teacher. And
that's what I was for the first 10 years of my
life. But after that, during that 10 years, I
was sent to Puerto Rico. And in Puerto Rico,
I really loved the island, the people. I started
to learn Spanish, came back and worked again
in high school and was sent back to work in religious
vocation work and formation. So I was down there.
Well, I was in Puerto Rico a total of 17 years.
And when I was done with that, I didn't want
to lose my Spanish. So I worked in parishes.
in Lorain, Ohio, in Georgia, and also in Ashtabula,
Ohio. And all of them had elements of the Hispanic
community. I learned a lot about working in parish
work in Lorain, Ohio, and I carried that with
me. When I was moving from Ashtabula, My major
superior, I had worked, you know, when you work
with an immigrant community and you're working
with a community that doesn't know English well,
you end up doing a lot of stuff. You go to school
and translate for the parents, you know, with
the kids. You go to hospital and you go to court,
municipal court. So my major superior said to
me, well, You've been going to court. Why don't
you study law? Now, I had never thought of that,
but I was looking for where I was going to move
next. I didn't want to work in the diocese because
I wanted to hands -on. I wanted to work with
the people. So I applied. I applied to three
law schools because I was still working at the
time. You know, you didn't have a lot of time
to study or anything. I took the LSAT twice.
The second time I used a book, I studied a bit.
And I raised it enough that I was accepted into
Duquesne Law School. So following, that was very
convenient because my mother was here in Pittsburgh,
and she was elderly. So I got to visit her also
on Saturdays to help her out a little bit. I
guess the third miracle of the year was I graduated,
and the fourth miracle, I passed the bar. So
I began to work immediately in immigration, and
I learned a lot of it hands -on. I actually started
in court. I think most people usually start with
applications, but I did really more in court.
And I really learned a lot from the judge and
from my colleagues. things, of course, were kind
of different in court than they are right now,
than they are today. And so that was in 2010.
I have been working in immigration ever since.
Okay. I was curious, what made you want to become
an immigration attorney? That seems like a very
unique calling. Well, as I say, I was working
with immigrants in all three of my missions in
Lorain, Ohio. Now, Lorain was mostly Puerto Rican,
but there were Mexicans, and there were elements
of the population who were undocumented. And,
of course, the church is really a central place,
so they would come. to Mass and to the liturgy,
and especially Our Lady of Guadalupe. You know,
that was really the first one. Then I went to
Georgia, and actually in the little town where
I was working, I actually started the Hispanic
community under the direction of the pastor.
I lived in one town, and I had to travel to the
other town really for my work. And we brought
together the Hispanic community, which she was
very happy with. So now I was only in Georgia
three years. I moved to Ashtabula, and there
was a number of undocumented Hispanics, and some
were documented. And they really also came together
to form a community. They mostly were Mexican
and very hard workers, very hard workers. The
sense of family, the sense of community, the
work ethic, the love of their children. They
were very, very positive things. We started a
religious education for the children, the sacraments,
preparation, the mass in Spanish, which they
really appreciated. Yeah, you hit on it a little
bit already, but as you spent time in these different
communities, What jumped out to you about their
stories, their journey? Was there anything that
really kind of stirred your heart and moved you
into action, into doing what you're doing today?
Well, you know, they have the same goals. They
have the same ideals of all working class people,
that they wanted to work. They were not afraid
to do that. You know, the gospel says the worker
deserves his keep. They were not afraid of hard
work, work that, you know, most Anglos would
not be able to do. They were picking. different
crops, vegetables. They worked a lot in construction.
They worked in landscaping. And the Mexicans
are green thumbs. They know how to work with
the different plants. They have an eye for what
would look good on your property. They were wonderful,
and many of them worked in factories. And the
labor, you know, one of the women actually, they
worked in pairs, but they worked with the car
hoods, fenders and hoods, and two of them together
lifting. Now, it was good pay. But you had these
women, very, very strong, very strong. And they
really used the energy and the force of their
bodies because they had kids to provide for.
Yeah, I want to get into the nuances and complexities
of... immigration law and everything that's unfolding
today in the United States. Yes. Could we begin
first? I love your perspective as a Franciscan
as well. And you wrote a wonderful article about
this for St. Anthony Messenger in 2024, I believe.
But, you know, what would it look like, in your
opinion, for our immigration system to have a
Franciscan heart? Well, as many of the bishops
have already said, Franciscans, and Francis was
really very Catholic, would recognize the dignity
of each person, and the dignity because they
were created by God, in the image of God. And
Francis respected that. even of great sinners,
that the image of God is there. And he would
respect authority. He would respect priests that
were not perfect because they are made in the
image of God and they are able to consecrate.
He was very, very Catholic in that respect. You
know, the second part, the second part, I used
in the article, and I think is very appropriate
here, is the idea of community. Community, the
common good. You know, Francis was known for
his radical poverty. When I was a younger sister,
I used to say, well, You know, here we are Franciscan
and we have a house, we have clothing, we have
food. You know, should we be giving all that
up? But then what would you do? How would you
live? So Francis was radical. He is not to be
followed in that way. But when you look at what
his early followers did, Francis lived at the
time. when the medieval towns were beginning
to take shape. And so was the capitalistic system.
Francis abhorred money, but not money for the
sake of money, money because it represented wealth
and power and the hoarding of both. The friars
recognized, that all these people that are coming
from outside the city needed to also eat. You
know, maybe they were able to do horseshoes.
Maybe they were able to make leather goods. Maybe
they were skilled at making different kinds of
clothing. You know, all the different things
that you need in a city. And so the friars...
encouraged the use of money, but money as it
would benefit the common good. In other words,
you might be selling this article, but you should
not charge extravagantly for this, not exorbitant
prices. And the same with people who were farmers
who were bringing in the food. You know that
they should not charge exorbitant prices either.
Why? Because we must work together for the common
good. And you see that often in the Hispanic
community. Yeah. Yeah. And that aspect of the
common good, I appreciate you diving into this.
I feel like that is so important in a capitalist
society. Because it is so easy, either on a personal
level or societal level, for capitalism to become
ruthless. Whereas compassionate capitalism, with
the common good in mind, it can lead to empowerment.
It can lead to lifting up the lowly. So do you
have anything to add there? You know, some of
the billionaires of today, have done a lot in
our world to alleviate health problems in the
poorest of nations. They have foundations that
really are providing. Now, see, you don't begrudge
people that have money. You know, they have earned
it or they have gotten it. But is it being used?
And, you know, it doesn't mean billionaires need
to give away all their money. They have children.
They have hopes. They have legacies, you know.
But they also need to look toward those who are
less fortunate. You know, there are so many different
ways that people can enjoy what they have and
still work for the common good. In this first
reflection segment, I wanted to highlight a theme
that Sister Suzanne returns to you'll find again
and again throughout this conversation, and that
is the notion of the common good. According to
section 1906 in the Catechism of the Catholic
Church, the common good is, quote, the sum total
of social conditions, which allow people, either
as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment
more fully and more easily. As Father Pat McCloskey
summarizes in an article that I've linked to
in the show notes, the Catechism then lists three
essential elements of the common good. The first,
respect for the fundamental and inalienable rights
of the human person. The second, social well
-being and development of the group itself. And
third, the stability and security of a just order.
I think today it's easier than ever with the
internet and now AI to isolate ourselves. It's
easy to end up in an echo chamber, even unintentionally,
when our own opinions are constantly being echoed
back to us, reaffirming a sense of moral superiority.
The common good breaks this open. It leads us
outside of ourselves to consider those who are
suffering and how we can create a more just,
equal, and loving society and world. I'll conclude
this reflection with this verse from 1 Corinthians
12, 7. To each is given the manifestation of
the Spirit for the common good. I'll read it
one more time. To each is given the manifestation
of the Spirit for the common good. In other words,
this Spirit we've each been given, this inerrant
union we have with God, with Christ, leads us.
If we let the spirit do its work into deeper
unity with one another, even those whom we are
yet to become aware of the spiritual connectedness.
Now back to the conversation. I'm curious what
you think about this. And Francis comes to mind
here as well. But when it comes to the common
good. At least during this age we're living through
right now, it seems like labeling can lead to
a certain ignorance or blindness toward the common
good. And we saw this in Francis's time, right?
I mean, lepers. banished from society, essentially,
labeled. And Francis, of course, this was a long
process for him, a kind of deepening of his conversion.
But he began to see that, oh, yeah, like, Christ
is right here in these people who our society
is kind of pushed out. And then you see that
as well with his—we just did an episode on the
podcast about this, but you see that as well
with his experience with Sultan Malik al -Kamil.
And people labeled by the church itself—I mean,
I think we dove into this on the episode, but
the papal bull was basically calling Christians
to genocide of the Muslim people. And Francis—
through experience, through being a peacemaker,
and let's be honest, probably trying to evangelize
on some level. But again, Francis's conversion
deepened as he saw Christ in the other. So I
bring all that up, one, to get any thoughts you
have on that, but two, I think labeling today.
social media it's rampant on social media it's
so easy to label demonize caricature politics
is fueled by this kind of labeling you know good
good guys bad guys it's all dualistic um and
I think moving toward the common good, just my
perspective, but it requires really moving beyond
this labeling and seeing that even for non -Christians
listening, seeing beauty, truth, and goodness
in the other, daring to see that, that this person
has a story just like me. This person has a heart
and a mind just like me. This person is loved
by God just like me. So do you have anything
to add there? Well, you know, labeling has certainly
been a part of the political discourse in the
last few years. I mean, calling people garbage.
You're calling people rapists and murderers and
thugs and criminals without any evidence. Lawyers
look for evidence. Why would you label somebody?
Actually, it's the way the genocide over in Rwanda
began. The Hutus and the Tutsis. The Hutus were...
disseminating information, calling the Tutsis
cucarachas. And, you know, after that, several
months of that over the radio, people started
to believe it. And that's really the danger.
People believe the misinformation. Yeah. And
it's easy. And I've certainly done this in my
life, too. I mean, on a kind of subconscious
level, it's easier to just believe the label
than to do the hard work to see beauty, truth
and goodness where you may least expect it. And
this applies to the. If you're on the left, it
applies to how you see people on the right. If
you're on the right, it applies to how you see
people on the left. So I'm not just speaking
from one camp here. I mean, this is the Franciscan
trajectory to experience Christ in the other.
That can mean something different depending on
who is other to you. The interesting thing is
the more you come in contact, the more you come
into community with the other, the less you see
them as other. Yes, that's beautifully said.
You begin to see them as a person before God.
And, you know, that is certainly a Franciscan
calling. And that's why it is so important for
us to teach our children, you know, to come in
contact with those who are on the margins, who
now I'm in a safe way, and, you know, maybe who
are other, maybe who cannot speak our language.
Maybe who do not pray as we do. Maybe those who
do not look as we do. You know, to experience
the other is to come to see who they are. Beautiful.
Yeah, I'd like to move toward your experiences
as an immigration attorney. Can you share with
me a story or two about people you've worked
with and the impact that they have had on your
own heart, your own mind? But then the purpose
of sharing that story, I hope, is, you know,
like I think it's exactly what you just said.
It is to see these people, people on the margins,
and to see them as they are. Yeah. Can you share
a story or two with us? Well, you know, I've
done a range of different things. I'm always
happy to be able to work with someone who's getting
citizenship. And they are so proud. They study
so hard. It's like I had one guy. who wanted
so badly to get his citizenship. Now, he was
illiterate in his own language, but he had to
know how to write English, an English sentence.
He took the English words and he filled up sheet
after sheet after sheet. Honestly, he must have
written over a thousand. Over a thousand, excuse
me, sentences. So that hopefully, you know, some
of these words would come up in the sentence
he had to write. Of course, it's a random sentence.
It comes up from the computer. There's a list
of like 200 words. And he finally did. He was
like magnificently happy. I've also worked with
both refugees and those seeking asylum. The main
difference is the refugees are vetted outside
the United States. Asylees come in and they do
their application and defend their application
inside the United States. I had one young lady.
She was the daughter of the mistress of a guy
who left, of course, left his mistress to be
with another family. So she did not have his
name. She was not really legitimate. Her mother
died when she was 10 years old. So her dad, of
course, found out. took her and put her with
his first wife. She was treated as the maid.
And so she did all kind of stuff. And of course,
she can't read and write. Well, she did fall
in love. She and she was quite young. I believe
she was around 17. She had a tiny little house.
He worked in the fields, and he would come home
at night. They got pregnant. They had a child.
She was deliriously happy. She was really, really
happy. Until one night, he didn't come home.
And two weeks later, he did come home, but he
came with his half -brother. And he was very
much afraid. He was crying. I didn't mean to
do this. I didn't want to do this. So she didn't
know exactly what he didn't want to do, but the
next day he went away again, and he'd come back
like every two weeks. Well, what happened is
his half -brother was very much involved in drugs,
and of course, you know, he ended up too. Half
-brother was really kind of a leader, and of
course he had guns and all that. Well, she, around
January, between January and February, he came
home for a month, and he was trying to break
away. So during the day, she would go with the
father, her father's mother, who was elder. He
would go in the cemetery because he didn't want
the half -brother to come in and find him. But
of course, they came for him at night and took
him. By April, he was arrested. He was taken
to jail, drugs, with his brother, half -brother.
All of a sudden, she gets a phone call. and she's
told to come to the jail. Well, they have to
pick her up and take her because she doesn't
know how to read and write, and she doesn't know
how to take a bus, and she doesn't have any money.
All right, so she gets there, and her husband
says, we're going to be in touch and do what
we tell you. So she goes back home. Shortly after
that, armed men come to the house with their
guns. They hand her the phone, and her husband's
on the other end, and he tells her, okay, we're
going to leave you two satchels. You take these
satchels, and you take the bus, and take the
two kids with you, and you take them to this
house. Well, the armed men, They got their guns
out and said, this is what you do, and if you
don't, you'll answer. Okay. So she goes, and
she does that, and she comes back with two more
satchels, which the guys pick up. A little while
later, they come again, and she said, well, can't
I do it without the kids? They got their guns
out, put the guns to the kids' heads, and said,
Okay, if you don't want to take the kids, we'll
do away with them right now. Oh, no, no, no.
She said, okay. Okay, I'll take the kids. So
she ended up, she never opened the satchel. She
was told not to. But she figured this is not
a good thing. This is not a good thing. So she
did that a number of times. a number of times
because they threatened to kill her. They threatened
to cut her tongue out. They threatened to kill
the kids in front of her and cut them up in pieces.
And they showed her on the phone a picture of
a kid cut up in pieces. Lord have mercy. Gosh.
She believed them. Okay. So finally, she goes
to the house and she's... putting cookies into
the satchel to come back for the kids. The kids
are like two and four. So she's coming back,
and when she put the cookies in, she saw money.
So she's coming back, and she says, I don't want
to do this. Why am I doing this? So in the middle
of the run, She stops. She gets on, takes the
two kids, goes to the base of the mountain because
there's mountains there, leaves the backpacks,
grabs a stack of money. She doesn't know how
much it is. She can't count. She's never seen
money like that before. She goes up into the
mountains, and she stayed there for a day and
a half, petrified that they would find her. So
finally she decided, I can't stay here. If I
do, they'll kill me and the kids. So she came
up to the United States. Now, legally, I did
a brief on that. And I found a case that was
just perfect. who has escaped from indentured
servitude. That is a valid PSG. So we went and
we did the asylum case, but she lost. So I don't
do appeals, but I appealed that one. The judge
seemed to think there was no... fear of persecution.
So it's very difficult for the people to get
asylum. These are cases of people that are in
dire straits. I mean, this is a mother thinking
of her kids, little kids. Yeah, if that's not
asylum, I don't know what is. Well, we'll see.
Obviously, the threat would have been countrywide
because obviously this was a network. And she
was receiving orders directly from prison. So
the government was not able to control. This
particular group. Yeah. Yeah, and that's such
an important story, Sister Suzanne. Thank you
for sharing it. That story flips everything on
its head. Like, you want people like that finding
refuge in this country, no matter what the label
of legal or illegal is. You know, I mean, that,
yeah. She was legal. She entered the country
and immediately asked for asylum. Okay, gotcha.
That is what you are supposed to do. And she
had fear of being persecuted should she be returned
to her country. Petrified. In this second reflection,
I would like us to sit with the story that Sister
Suzanne just shared. The poet Muriel Rukeyser
famously wrote that stories, not atoms, comprise
the universe. That stories, not atoms, comprise
the universe. How did Jesus teach? He told parables.
He told stories. Stories open us up. They invite
us to consider another perspective, to place
ourselves in the shoes of someone else, to deepen
our empathy and curiosity. The sacred reading
and receiving of a story is a contemplative encounter.
It invites us to see the person as they are,
not by the ideas that we are defining them by,
not by the labels that we are defining them by,
but by the journey that they've gone on. Beneath
every opinion is a story. Beneath every label,
legal or illegal, Democrat or Republican, is
a story. One of the reasons I've committed my
vocation to storytelling is because of its transformative
nature. Each story that I'm privileged to go
out and gather, each interview I get to conduct
with a subject In a very real way, it changes
me. I'm not the same person after the interview
or after writing the story that I was before.
The creative process itself is its own spiritual
invitation to go even deeper into the story that
was shared. And then the hope, of course, is
to tell that story in a way that might stir the
heart of the reader just as it has stirred my
own. It may sound idealistic, but I really do
believe that if our consciousness as a country,
as a society, had a deeper appreciation for story,
it could heal all our brokenness. What's kind
of funny is that our culture does value story.
I mean, we'll binge Netflix into the late hours
of the evening, completely consumed by a story.
will go to Disney World or Universal and bask
in elements of story. And yet, in our political
discourse, it seems that we have grown too accustomed
to defining one another by our ideas without
any curiosity for where those ideas might come
from. The story that Sister Suzanne shared invites
me to humbly consider what my life might be like
if I was born in a different country, or if I
unknowingly found myself doing grunt work for
a cartel for fear that they would murder my children.
When she fled and miraculously escaped, her children
were the same as mine are now, two and four.
Lord, help us all. If she is sent back, Lord
help us all if we become so self -focused as
a country, so America first, that our hearts
stop breaking. Now back to the conversation.
What would you like to share about the legal
side of things that you think is important for
people to understand today? Well, today, legally,
working with immigration is very, very difficult.
You know, first of all, now this is in Minnesota.
which prompted this particular podcast. But it's
not only in Minnesota. It, of course, has been
in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, and it's
in other parts of the country. It's like you
have people being taken. Some of them are offenders.
You know, you need to look at the offenses. For
some, it's a DUI way back in 2008. A DUI is serious.
But remember, in 2008, all you got was a slap
on the hand. The law has evolved since that time.
There are no other violations from 2008 until
now. So this is like 15, almost 20 years. Yeah.
So now you are imputing criminal behavior to
this person who made a mistake. turned their
life around possibly is a very contributing member
of the society. Has children, is married, and
now is being deported. And the same thing, you
know, with children. Even our criminal system.
After 10 years, you can get stuff erased. You
can get, after 10 years, they throw the UIs out.
Not for immigration. Immigration, every deletion,
every violation that you have is on your record
forever. Even if you were a minor. Now, our system
says, okay, minors, a lot of times, especially
boys, you know, their neurons aren't connected.
They, you know, they really cannot be as responsible
as an adult would be. So you cut them a break.
Not in immigration. Not in immigration. You know,
with Obama, now, I worked under Obama, under
Trump, under Biden, under Trump. With Obama,
you knew what was going to happen with your client.
You could advise your client. If your client
had a national security threat or a major felony,
you knew he was going to be jailed and then deported.
And it's okay when you say, well, you know, actions
have consequences. Okay? The second level down,
if you have two or more substantial misdemeanors,
okay, then you would be... That would be the
second priority. The third priority are people
that are here less than two years and have some
kind of criminal activity. Then they would be
the third. People who had been here. longer than
two years, who have absolutely clean records,
those people, they cut them a break. Sometimes
they would let them go. Sometimes they were put
in a court, but they could get bond. And they
needed to resolve their case in some way. so
that they were able to stay in the United States,
which makes sense, okay? You clearly were able
to tell people what was going to go on. Yep.
With this present administration, the goal is
a quota. It doesn't make any difference how long
you were here. It doesn't make any difference
what your record shows. It doesn't even make
any difference at times if you are a permanent
resident or even citizens have been arrested
and they've been kept in jail. Now, when they
find out they're citizens, they let them go,
but who knows how long that's going to take.
Yeah, yes, yep. Okay? What they're looking for
is numbers. We want numbers. It's interesting.
Obama was considered the deporter -in -chief.
Now ICE has quotas. Okay? They don't care. And
this is a problem because they are put in jail.
The Attorney General has arbitrarily changed
the statute under which everybody is adjudicated.
People who have just come into the country are
adjudicated under 235, and they cannot have bond.
If they are newly arrived, they, within two years,
they are newly arrived, they, you know, if they
have no reason to be here, they can be deported
without bond. You know, if they've asked for
asylum, then they need to adjudicate their asylum
case while they're in prison. If you have been
here longer than the two years, and especially
if you have no danger of fleeing, so in other
words, you have ties to the community, and if
you have no danger of public safety, your record's
clean, they can get bail. Bond, excuse me. The
Attorney General says... No longer can they be
adjudicated under 236. Everybody's under 235.
So nobody can get bail, bond. Is that legal?
How can you just make a change like that? Well,
actually, it has been contested in court. And
the courts have found that that is not legal.
But the Attorney General says they must continue.
Judges must continue, the immigration judges.
See, the immigration judges are under the Attorney
General. Your federal judges are under what's
called Article III of the Constitution. So she
has no control over the federal judges. And what's
happening with immigration judges, ones who do
judge according to the Constitution, the statute,
they get fired. And they're putting in a judge
advocate from the military. to be temporary judges.
So the military attorneys are judging these cases.
What qualifications do they have? The ramifications
legally are horrendous. You have these huge holding
prisons. We have one in Pennsylvania, Mooshannon.
I just read an article in the paper. They are
planning or they want to use two warehouses in,
I think it's northeastern Pennsylvania, that
they want to convert warehouses. They want to
convert to this kind of holding prison where
they have 2 ,000 inmates. And it is for profit.
Owned by the government. These are for profit.
So on the backs of the poor, people are getting
rich. That's only one area. In terms of asylum,
it's almost impossible to get asylum now. So
that has shifted as well. Yes. Some of the case
law. that had provided for asylum, particularly
in terms of domestic violence, in terms of family,
that it's been negated. How do you... I know
a lot of people are just... So overwhelmed with
everything happening right now. And you're in
the thick of it, working with these people, seeing
the changes in immigration law, changes happening
overnight. Arbitrarily. Yes. Arbitrarily. Yeah.
How do you keep going? How do you keep doing
what you're doing? I really have to say 2025
was the worst year for me in working with immigration
law. Every week there would be a new—and nothing
was good. It was always a disaster. It was always—
It was always a very punitive thing. You know,
I have to say, I was reading an article, one
of the bishops who said, we are losing the soul
of America in our 250th year. You know, to arbitrarily,
against immigrants, against refugees. Now these
are the lepers of the day. In Minnesota, their
excuse for going into Minnesota is because they
think the Somali population are corrupt. So they
have this Paris policy. So they go and they take
refugees and they interrogate them again, revet
them. If they do not let ICE come into the house,
then ICE sends them a letter that they have to
come and present themselves for some kind of
interview or something. Well, they have to go.
And then they were arrested. One woman, actually,
one woman was breastfeeding. New baby, five -month
-old baby. And she was not only arrested, but
she was sent to Texas for her vetting, for her
interview. And they're asked the same questions
that they had asked when they were vetted. Now,
what is wrong with this picture? That you would
take a nursing mother with a young child. What
have we come to in our country? And would you
say the horrific actions like that? are all in
some way or another kind of flowing from what
you said earlier, that need to hit a certain
quota? Or what else is in this cocktail of decision
-making that's leading to something so inhumane
as that? Well, you know, there's a number of
things. The quota is the arresting, vetting refugees
is something different. That's what I say. It's
like every Monday, every Monday there would be
a new, very, very punishing thing come up in
immigration law. When you thought, what else
can they do? They would find something. And,
you know, they're going after. children who came
as minors and who have SIJ visas. Now, after
a certain time, they can apply for a green card.
They're going after them, especially the boys
when they turn 18. But there was a law, a policy,
a law that said, that they cannot do that even
when they turn 18. But it is not being honored.
That's what I'm saying. We are losing our soul.
Yeah, yeah. And I want to make sure we're crystal
clear here for anyone listening. You hit on this
with everything. that you saw last year as an
immigration attorney you said it was the worst
year uh ever for you just what you're running
up against day after day after day you you've
never seen anything like this before correct
this is unprecedented yeah it is unprecedented
and it is not right morally morally as a country
we we cannot Do this. In this final reflection,
I wanted to return to what Sister Suzanne reminded
us of, the fact that we will celebrate the 250th
birthday of America this year. I love this country.
I proudly celebrate the 4th of July every year.
I proudly wear my United States Ryder Cup hat.
I want to raise my children to have a deep gratitude
for where they're from and the opportunities
that they were afforded just by being born in
this place. I want their love for their country
to run so deep that they're willing to fight
for it and stand up for ideas they believe will
make the country better. The politicians in power
who I didn't vote for, I hope they prove me wrong.
I hope they succeed. This country's past is tattered
and tragic. but so are most countries history
is really really messy i love that the ideals
the founders established are so high so seemingly
unattainable that we are always pushing forward
which sometimes requires pushing back and taking
a stand and i love living in a place where i
can voice my opinion, where I can criticize the
government, where vehement debate can occur.
I love looking back on the last 60 years, not
even one lifetime, and thinking about the progress
that has been made, while at the same time my
heart simultaneously aches that this kind of
progress took that long. There's a great quote
from the hit musical Hamilton. a musical that
I believe is brilliant at capturing the American
spirit present at its founding and is important
to recover today. At one point, Hamilton says,
quote, America, you great unfinished symphony.
You sent for me. You let me make a difference.
A place where even orphan immigrants can leave
their fingerprints and rise up. I've found that
when I'm down about the state of affairs in this
country that I love, I return to one of my favorite
shows, The West Wing. I am that old person who
now just watches reruns of West Wing and Seinfeld,
it seems. And yes, West Wing is kind of idealistic.
It probably doesn't come close to capturing the
darkness and corruption in modern politics. But
I personally love the idealism. It gives me hope.
It reminds me of the goodness of people and the
impact that good people can make. The show written
by Aaron Sorkin is also prophetic. In the pilot
of the show, there are hundreds of Cubans escaping
across the Atlantic in search of freedom, while
the governor of Florida wants to blockade the
port of Miami. And at one point, Jed Bartlett,
the president of the United States, played by
Martin Sheen, is talking to his staff. And he
says, quote, with the clothes on their backs,
they came through a storm. And those that didn't
die want a better life. And they want it here.
Talk about impressive. Now back to the conversation.
How do we get back that soul of America? How
do we start moving toward healing again? What
has to happen? Well, you know, we need comprehensive
immigration reform. In 2013, the Senate passed
a reform bill. The House would not pick it up.
Now, it's really unfortunate. It is really unfortunate.
It gave tons of money for border security, billions.
But it also gave people with certain requisites,
people that had been here a number of years,
people that had clean records. punish them in
the sense that they would have to pay a certain
amount of money, a couple thousand dollars, to
be able to have a pass to get a green card. And
it would take something like 10, 13 years. Like,
this was not something that, okay, tomorrow,
okay, we'll give you a green card for sale for
so many thousands. No. This was over time. So,
you know, you even had time to make sure of the
good moral character of people. Yeah. And I'm
not talking about, you know, I'm not talking
about a misdemeanor, you know, somebody, you
know. got drunk and got in the fight in the bar
or something like that. And then they ended up
paying for the damage. And I mean, you know,
that's stupidity. But it doesn't mean that you
are now a bad person. Yeah, and you hit on this
earlier, too. But one of the seeming unprecedented
things that's been unfolding under this current
administration is the way ICE has been utilized
to carry out some of this stuff. Can you dive
into that a little bit? What is the history of
ICE, and how has it changed under this current
administration? Well, you know, ICE, I believe,
came into existence with the Patriot Act. You
know, before 9 -11, you know, before 9 -11, our
border with Mexico was quite porous. I have one
client who crossed the border at the Chihuahua.
See, you know, there's El Paso and Chihuahua.
Both of those, you know, are gates. Well, she
came with her son and entered. There was nobody
there. It was 1999. There was no one. They just
entered through the gate, you know, free. Now,
after the Saudis came over with visas and learned
how to fly airplanes in the buildings, The Patriot
Act, you know, said we better, you know, spruce
up our borders. We better seal them. Okay. So
that's when the Department of Homeland Security
began. Okay. Before that, I believe it was the
INS. But what you had, the Homeland Security
has three different branches. You have the Visa
Section, which is separate, Border Patrol, which
is separate, and ICE, which is Immigration and
Customs Enforcement. Okay? So that's what it
came into being. Now, my experience with ICE
as an attorney, you know, I knew a number of
ICE agents. And, you know, during the Obama,
no. Of course, we complained that they would
sit outside down the block from different houses
at 6 o 'clock in the morning. And when the workers
came out to get picked up or to go to work, they
would come and they would take them. And they
were undocumented, so they were put into court.
And they would go through the process. And, you
know, some were deported. Some were able, you
know, to get some kind of remedy. Now, the ICE
agents had no vest. I'm sure they had guns, but
they weren't showing their guns. It's like they
didn't come like a military force. Yeah. Black
jackets and everything. Now, they are. coming
as a military force. They are doing what military
do, pulling people out of cars, you know, breaking
car windows, forcefully entering homes. And that
itself is against the Fourth Amendment. Forcefully
entering homes without a judicial warrant. And
the Homeland Security. person said, oh, you don't
need one. There's a memo that's been in existence
since July of last year that says you no longer
need one. That's not legal. That's going against
the Constitution. You can't do that. For America,
your home is your castle. Your home is sacred.
So just the whole purview of these ICE raids
takes on a whole... And, you know, no wonder
that there was the response that you had in Minnesota.
You had... ICE agents coming in, and you had
National Guard coming in with guns. And you have
this armed group coming into your city. Well,
you as citizens, of course, they were incensed.
You will not come in here like this. And who
got shot? Who had the guns? Right. Who got shot?
This was not protesters waving their guns at
ICE. This was ICE waving its guns at U .S. citizens.
Yeah. Yeah, what do you... I've heard this argument
from people who either back or... justify these
kind of actions say for example an ice raid well
i've heard the argument you don't get the fourth
amendment if you're illegal what would you say
to what would you how would you respond to that
argument the fourth amendment you certainly do
yeah yep in terms of your home now it's very
hard It's very hard to use the Fourth Amendment
if I pick someone up in the street. But to go
into a home, you need a judicial warrant. And
that's the law. Yeah. And respond to this argument
as well. I'll try to steel man this a little
bit, but the person who says, yes, these deportations,
the broken immigration system, everything, the
militant means of ICE, this has all become messy.
However, that's going to happen inevitably. because
of everyone who came across the border under
the previous administration. What would your
response be to that argument? Well, there may
be a huge number who have come across the border,
but they're people and they're fleeing. And you
look at what they have. They're not bringing
Amani suitcases and coming in flying and asking
for upscale housing, as some refugees from South
Africa are. Now, they might not be able to stay.
But you know, we cannot become a country that,
you know, a country that loses our moral value,
our moral sense. Obama deported thousands, thousands.
That's what you do. There is certainly a refugee
crisis in our world. There are people really
fleeing persecution in many parts. We cannot
take care of them all. This is true. But we can
treat people with dignity. Yeah, what would you...
There are some Catholics, big -time decision
-makers in this administration. J .D. Vance,
I'm not sure if Mike Johnson's Catholic, but
he's a strong Christian, he says. Marco Rubio,
I mean, the bishops have come out with a letter.
A lot of religious have come out taking a stand
here. What would your message be to this current
administration as an immigration attorney and
a Franciscan sister about how you have seen this
radically change under this administration? Well,
I think Marco would be at least as an attorney.
I'm not sure if Vance is. But I would say, you
know, some of the efforts of the administration
are not legal. And that needs to be attended
to because it's a slippery slope. And once we
go into the illegality, it is going to... We
will lose our soul. We will lose our soul. America
had been established on certain values. Freedom,
the right to do the right thing, liberty, the
work ethic. When you look at the woodsmen that
traveled across the United States and tried to
make it a land that would produce and a land
that would bring fruit and allow them to live,
it was a land where people came together in community
and cared for each other. This is not what you
see in so much of the legality of this administration.
Where is the common good? Does getting rid of
all immigrants make the United States better?
You know, I could go into the economy. You know,
there have been studies that were done. Actually,
look at some of the cities. Littleton in Pennsylvania,
where there was an immigrant community. The small
businesses, a town, a tiny town that was certainly...
you know, not active, you might say dying, all
of a sudden rejuvenated. They say the same thing
of, oh, there's this town right outside of Pittsburgh,
Manessen, Manessen or that area with the Haitians.
who came in. And the people in the town have
said this. You know, they have made our town
better. You could argue, but among them you have
criminals. Well, look at the United States. Among
the citizens, we have criminals. And yes, they
should be deported. And yes, they should be adjudicated.
They should... But you can't say, okay, so now
everybody who's Haitian is a criminal. Everybody
who is from whatever country is now a criminal.
You can't do that. That is not accurate. That
is not correct. Yeah, and I'm always so baffled
by... like i it's what you said i think most
americans and i think the data backs us up that
most americans are completely okay with deporting
criminals um and but then this administration
i'll try not to go on a soapbox but they they
always take things too far To the point that
it doesn't even benefit them. And I think the
polling is coming out and showing that now. And
so I'm hopeful that they change course. But this
in and of course, this is the administration
that we have right now. But we've seen this on
the left, too, where, you know, it's just there's
a lot of 80 20 issues that Americans are completely
on board for something. But then it just gets
taken too far. And I. I don't understand how,
I don't know how we get out of the cycle in America
where it's just this, it's a spiraling into what
you said, losing the soul of America when we,
it's always, you know, every, it's not even that
every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction.
It's like every action has a more severe reaction.
And then that reaction has a more severe reaction.
And it's just, uh, I, I. We're in an interesting
spot here in the history of our country, to say
the least. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Well, you know, I look at what happened in Minnesota,
and I admire those people who did something.
Protesters. They came out in freezing weather,
and they said to ICE, We will not accept this.
We do not accept this. And of course they paid.
Two citizens were killed. That this is wrong.
Why? Because these people are our neighbors.
They go to school with our kids. They buy from
our businesses. I mean, you know, it's the common
good. This is not right. There was a town, now
this is a number of years ago. This has to be
about five years ago. There was a town up in
the Midwest where the guy owned a restaurant.
And he had like seven kids. The kids went to
school. You know, some of them, a number of them
were born here. Okay. He was a staple to the
community. He had been here 30 years. He provided
for the police. You know, he would once a year
have the celebration for the police. Everybody
knew him. And, you know, maybe not personally,
but everyone knew, oh, yeah, yeah. He was deported.
And the people in the town, everybody signed
a letter asking ICE not to do it. They did it
anyway. Now, you know, my favorite expression,
What is wrong with this picture? I believe we
have gone down a notch on, what is it, the liberty
scale. We have gone down. In the view of other
countries, you know, there is danger that we
will lose our soul. Do you think we've lost it
already? I think when I see people in Minnesota
braving the freezing weather, I think that there
is a lot of spirit. You know, the founding values
are not gone, particularly Midwestern. That,
you know, that helping, you know, having a neighbor,
helping your neighbor. You know, there may be
areas where we are. I suspect this administration
has lost the value. Well, Sister Suzanne, we
have covered a lot of ground here. What did we
miss? Do you have anything else to add? Gee,
we have covered, we really have covered a lot
of ground. I think what we need. One thing we
need to do in prayer and in reflection, deep,
profound reflection, we need to put aside politics
and search our hearts and our communities for
the values that last. For me, of course, a lot
of them are values that you find in Franciscanism.
But I suspect that those values, the dignity
of the human person, the value of the common
good, even the international common good, just
are... our neighbors, not just our states, not
just our country, the international common good
of our allies, of our neighbors, of civil discourse,
even with those who are not our allies. That,
you know, those are all values that I think in
our heart of hearts. we need to find yeah and
you mentioned it we're we're about to celebrate
the 250 year anniversary of the founding of this
country and our founders of course were deeply
flawed as we are as we all are however they were
absolutely brilliant in articulating values and
ideals that we should strive for and I would
invite anyone listening and myself as well to
really think and contemplate those values this
year and to ask the hard questions like how have
we lost those? How are we maybe drifting away
from them? How beautiful would it be in a year
that we celebrate the 250 -year birthday of America
that we bring these values to the surface again
in discourse, in policy, in law, in education?
I mean, do you have anything to add there? Well,
you know, I think what you said is true about
the brilliance of our founding fathers and the
documents that they wrote, but we need to remember.
There was a lot of conflict there, but they were
able to resolve it, and everyone had to give.
And they were able to do that, and the only reason
they did that, for the common good. Yeah. Beautiful.
For our country, because this is more important
than my own. or my own presentation. And we need
to learn how to give. Yeah, and they put their
lives on the line for the common good. And they
did it together, everybody. They did it together.
Well, I don't like this part, so I'm not going
to sign. Yep. And they did it knowing that they
may not ever see the fruits of what they were
envisioning. I mean, that is, yeah, that, but
talk about the common good. I mean, they saw
that, they saw that knowing and were willing
to die for it. I just think, I think it's so
important to remember. this year. I wanted to
conclude with your closing paragraph in your
2024 St. Anthony Messenger article. It really
ties things together nicely. And you write, immigration
law is complex, as is our immigration situation
today. There's no easy remedy that will resolve
our immigration system as there's no easy solution
for the complex causes of migration. But there
is need for a Franciscan stance that can mitigate
the harshness of our country's immigration laws.
It is my hope that the Franciscan tradition helps
shine light on the path forward for work and
immigration, a calling that is deeply tied to
our identity and vocation as Franciscans today.
You wrote that almost two years ago. So I guess
my final question is, when we think about this
path that hopefully our founding values that
we've been talking about and the Franciscan vision
helps to light up in front of us, what's the
next step here for listeners? What is the path
forward right now in this current state that
we're in as a country? I think in terms of immigration,
we need to do a complete reform. We need to look
at that. And it needs to be a reform that is
not punitive. We need to do a reform that will
look for the best interest of our country. And
the best interest, you know, of course, include
the common good. You know, what will make our
country better? What will make it more alive?
What will bring the spirit back? You know, what
will... We need to rejuvenate here after 250
years. The comprehensive immigration reform.
And you cannot just do it on a political divide.
It's got to be a give and take. It's got to be
the kind of politics that our founding fathers
were willing to engage in. And the kind that,
really, after World War II. our senators, our
representatives, with civil discourse. This is
the kind of thing that we need. Well, I know
you're very busy, Sister Suzanne, and I really
appreciate you taking the time to share your
expertise, your stories, your theology. This
has been a really inspiring conversation, so
thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Once
again, that was Sister Suzanne Susanee. A huge
thank you to Sister Suzanne for sharing her wisdom
and expertise with us, and to Father Ciprian
Concilio as well for providing the intro and
outro music for this podcast. I have linked to
a number of helpful articles and resources in
the show notes of this episode. Those detailed
show notes can be found at franciscanmedia .org.
Thank you for tuning in, and thanks as always
for your support. This is Stephen Copeland signing
off. Peace and all good.