WEBVTT 00:00:07.660 --> 00:00:10.839 welcome to franciscan spirit i'm stephen copeland 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:14.560 what does it mean to live a life of dialogue 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:18.879 not just talking but deeply listening to the 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:23.500 world to other traditions and even to maybe unexpected 00:00:23.500 --> 00:00:27.420 voices like say bad bunny at a super bowl halftime 00:00:27.420 --> 00:00:31.379 performance in this rich conversation i sit down 00:00:31.379 --> 00:00:35.219 with my dear friend father cyprian concilio he 00:00:35.219 --> 00:00:38.700 is a camaldolese benedictine monk musician and 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:42.060 his current role is as secretary general of monastic 00:00:42.060 --> 00:00:46.350 inter -religious dialogue in rome In this conversation, 00:00:46.549 --> 00:00:50.929 we draw many themes from his new book. His new 00:00:50.929 --> 00:00:53.789 book is, I have it right here, Epiphanies of 00:00:53.789 --> 00:00:58.149 Nature and Grace, 12 Meditations from a Life 00:00:58.149 --> 00:01:02.670 in Dialogue is the subtitle. And we talk about 00:01:02.670 --> 00:01:04.750 a number of things. We talk about his chance 00:01:04.750 --> 00:01:08.510 encounter with Bede Griffiths decades ago, which 00:01:08.510 --> 00:01:11.150 sparked a lifelong journey into universal wisdom 00:01:11.150 --> 00:01:14.810 and interreligious encounter. We talk about how 00:01:14.810 --> 00:01:18.109 real dialogue isn't two monologues crossing, 00:01:18.310 --> 00:01:21.370 but it's a humble openness to receive truth, 00:01:21.650 --> 00:01:25.730 beauty, and goodness wherever they appear. We 00:01:25.730 --> 00:01:28.370 talk about a theology of the word, the logos. 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.159 that bridges Christianity with other traditions 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:35.980 and how we can see manifestations of the divine 00:01:35.980 --> 00:01:39.920 in nature, culture, consciousness, and even the 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:43.299 evolving spectrum of the human psyche. We talk 00:01:43.299 --> 00:01:46.239 about how grace builds upon but never destroys 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:50.079 nature, which challenges rigid monocultures in 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.340 religion, politics, and identity. And lastly, 00:01:53.579 --> 00:02:00.159 everything we discuss goes back to this urgent 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:03.819 call for each of us to today i think and it's 00:02:03.819 --> 00:02:07.400 this evolve it's how do we evolve our consciousness 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:11.259 through contemplative practice in order to heal 00:02:11.259 --> 00:02:14.860 divisions embrace diversity and return to the 00:02:14.860 --> 00:02:18.030 sources so we can all move forward together. 00:02:18.750 --> 00:02:21.490 Everyone who has listened to this podcast before 00:02:21.490 --> 00:02:24.569 is at least a little familiar with Father Cyprian 00:02:24.569 --> 00:02:27.710 because you hear his music at the end and beginning 00:02:27.710 --> 00:02:31.349 of every episode. I hope you enjoy this conversation 00:02:31.349 --> 00:02:35.210 as much as I did. So without further ado, here 00:02:35.210 --> 00:02:44.050 is Father Cyprian Concilio. Enjoy. Father Cyprian, 00:02:44.189 --> 00:02:47.699 welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Good to be 00:02:47.699 --> 00:02:52.080 with you. Yeah, thanks for taking the time. To 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:56.319 begin, can you talk about, so you're a Commodities 00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:00.180 monk. Can you explain to listeners the order 00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:02.419 that you belong to and then what your current 00:03:02.419 --> 00:03:07.780 role is right now in Rome? Sure. Commodities 00:03:07.780 --> 00:03:10.620 is actually the name of the congregation. The 00:03:10.620 --> 00:03:13.539 order is Benedictine. I'm a Benedictine monk. 00:03:14.189 --> 00:03:16.229 But the Benedictine, it's called the Benedictine 00:03:16.229 --> 00:03:20.669 Confederation, is broken up into different congregations, 00:03:20.669 --> 00:03:23.870 which are like little families. And my congregation 00:03:23.870 --> 00:03:26.909 is actually one of, I think it's the oldest one 00:03:26.909 --> 00:03:31.610 that still exists. We were started as a reform 00:03:31.610 --> 00:03:34.930 back in the 11th century. Our founder died in 00:03:34.930 --> 00:03:38.770 1027, mostly based in Italy, but we're also in 00:03:38.770 --> 00:03:42.349 India, Africa, Brazil. America, and now we have 00:03:42.349 --> 00:03:45.870 a small group in China and Germany. We're less 00:03:45.870 --> 00:03:47.969 than 100 monks, but we're all over the place. 00:03:48.830 --> 00:03:53.449 And currently, even though I'm a monk of a monastery 00:03:53.449 --> 00:03:57.189 in Big Sur, California, I've been asked by the 00:03:57.189 --> 00:04:00.810 Greater Benedictine Confederation to head up 00:04:00.810 --> 00:04:03.889 an organization called Monastic Interreligious 00:04:03.889 --> 00:04:09.150 Dialogue. So I'm based in Rome now. Our congregation 00:04:09.150 --> 00:04:11.830 is a house here about a mile from where I'm at 00:04:11.830 --> 00:04:14.889 right now. I live with our monks, but my boss 00:04:14.889 --> 00:04:16.850 is here where I'm at right now, which is called 00:04:16.850 --> 00:04:20.009 San Anselmo. It's the Curia of the Benedictine 00:04:20.009 --> 00:04:23.490 Order and also the Benedictine University for 00:04:23.490 --> 00:04:26.069 the world. So I come up here and work and answer 00:04:26.069 --> 00:04:28.790 to my boss. But being here in Rome is easier 00:04:28.790 --> 00:04:30.870 because this job takes me all over the world. 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:34.699 It's easier to travel from here. We work with 00:04:34.699 --> 00:04:37.680 the Vatican's Office for Interreligious Dialogue. 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:39.879 And of course, as I said, my boss is here too. 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:43.639 So that's where I'm at right now. One of my favorite 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:47.139 things about your new book, Epiphanies of Nature 00:04:47.139 --> 00:04:51.259 and Grace, is... the interfaith interreligious 00:04:51.259 --> 00:04:54.519 component that really shows up in every single 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:57.980 essay. I mean, it's a really beautiful book. 00:04:58.300 --> 00:05:02.740 And your subtitle, your subtitle is 12 meditations 00:05:02.740 --> 00:05:06.000 from a life in dialogue. So maybe that'll be 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:10.000 a good jumping off point for us. What is dialogue? 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:16.240 What did you mean by a life in dialogue? Easy 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.660 question. Softball question. Yeah, softball question. 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:23.120 Well, I think I even mentioned it somewhere in 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:30.579 one of the essays. My interest in interreligious 00:05:30.579 --> 00:05:37.899 dialogue was a branch of just something in my 00:05:37.899 --> 00:05:41.600 personality already, of loving to be in dialogue 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:45.980 with the world. When I reflect back on it, especially 00:05:45.980 --> 00:05:49.779 in my 20s, I was a professional musician for 00:05:49.779 --> 00:05:52.920 a good decade before I joined the monastery. 00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:00.180 I was always interested in music that was a little 00:06:00.180 --> 00:06:03.759 bit outside of the ordinary. I can remember sitting 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:07.019 in my apartment listening to Johnny Clegg and 00:06:07.019 --> 00:06:10.180 Savooka, for instance, which was music from Africa. 00:06:12.310 --> 00:06:15.350 Bringing in new sounds, you and I have had this 00:06:15.350 --> 00:06:17.689 conversation before about what it's like to be 00:06:17.689 --> 00:06:22.709 a creative person. For me to be a creative person 00:06:22.709 --> 00:06:25.670 means that you're never satisfied. We're always 00:06:25.670 --> 00:06:27.470 looking for something new, always looking for 00:06:27.470 --> 00:06:29.850 a new way to say it, a new way to express it. 00:06:31.470 --> 00:06:34.290 I want to say I didn't have great commercial 00:06:34.290 --> 00:06:38.589 success ever as a musical artist. Part of that 00:06:38.589 --> 00:06:40.589 reason is because I could never settle in on 00:06:40.589 --> 00:06:44.000 a style. I tried so many different things. I 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:48.600 did gospel music. I had a band that was a solo 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:51.980 singer. I was studying composition. Everything 00:06:51.980 --> 00:06:54.959 seemed so wonderful. I wanted to try a little 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.579 bit of it all until I found my own voice much 00:06:57.579 --> 00:07:00.399 later on that. But I want to say my life has 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:02.500 been in dialogue. I've just really been fascinated 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:04.800 by learning from different aspects of the world. 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:09.000 So when this idea came up that I got from this 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:12.740 great man, Bede Griffiths, who's an English Benedictine 00:07:12.740 --> 00:07:14.759 monk who spent the second part of his life in 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:17.660 India, this idea there being something called, 00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:21.139 he called it universal wisdom, meaning that all 00:07:21.139 --> 00:07:23.800 these great spiritual traditions all have something 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:28.100 we can learn from and share with. But also we 00:07:28.100 --> 00:07:30.420 can learn from these things. I'm like, oh, that 00:07:30.420 --> 00:07:33.060 makes total sense to me. That makes absolute 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:36.730 sense. There's things about reality in general 00:07:36.730 --> 00:07:40.230 that perhaps a Buddhist tradition from China 00:07:40.230 --> 00:07:43.509 would understand that I just haven't seen yet 00:07:43.509 --> 00:07:45.810 in my own background from white middle -class 00:07:45.810 --> 00:07:50.730 America, for instance, and I can learn from that 00:07:50.730 --> 00:07:54.569 and expand my own horizons. Yeah, the 12th meditation 00:07:54.569 --> 00:07:57.550 will mean a life in dialogue. I still am listening 00:07:57.550 --> 00:08:01.319 to the world. I watched. the entire thing of 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:06.439 Bad Bunny last night, for instance. I saw it 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:09.899 here on video because we're nine hours ahead 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:15.639 of that. I'm not a big fan of that music. I think 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:20.639 he's extraordinarily talented. Even me as a supposedly 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.639 contemplative monk, I learned something from 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:26.879 Bad Bunny. I like his dialogue, but I'm learning 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:29.819 something from him as well. I love knowing what's 00:08:29.819 --> 00:08:32.399 going on in contemporary culture, be it here 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.720 in Italy or be it in America or be it in Kazakhstan, 00:08:36.860 --> 00:08:39.740 for instance. There are aspects of life that 00:08:39.740 --> 00:08:43.220 I'm still learning from other people. I guess 00:08:43.220 --> 00:08:46.120 in that way, I'm never satisfied. Yeah, in that... 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.820 Tell me if I'm tracking here, but that's really 00:08:50.820 --> 00:08:53.980 important in dialogue, correct? Like you described 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:57.519 it as listening to the world. Do you have anything 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.519 to add there? I mean, I think it's a really beautiful 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.929 and important posture today because... A lot 00:09:05.929 --> 00:09:09.250 of people, it seems, don't approach, even Bad 00:09:09.250 --> 00:09:12.090 Bunny, with that kind of openness, that there 00:09:12.090 --> 00:09:16.269 is something for me to receive here, even as 00:09:16.269 --> 00:09:20.169 an English -speaking person. I didn't know what 00:09:20.169 --> 00:09:22.690 he was saying either, but oh my gosh, it was 00:09:22.690 --> 00:09:25.669 beautiful, and the choreography, and the videography, 00:09:25.929 --> 00:09:29.889 and just the placement of where he was, and the 00:09:29.889 --> 00:09:32.570 symbols, and obviously a very talented musician 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:36.309 too, but listening to the world. Can you go deeper 00:09:36.309 --> 00:09:42.169 into that for me? Well, even the more fundamental, 00:09:42.330 --> 00:09:46.250 I'm not sure we always understand what dialogue 00:09:46.250 --> 00:09:51.450 even is. I think this line is almost directly 00:09:51.450 --> 00:09:53.909 from Raimundo Panicar, who was another great 00:09:53.909 --> 00:09:57.529 theologian, mainly of last century, a Spanish 00:09:57.529 --> 00:10:00.889 Indian, who was one of the great world's experts 00:10:00.889 --> 00:10:05.830 on any religious dialogue. The dialogue is not 00:10:05.830 --> 00:10:09.529 a crossing of two monologues, he would say. It's 00:10:09.529 --> 00:10:11.970 not like I'm speaking and now you're speaking. 00:10:13.230 --> 00:10:17.730 One of the things I heard from the people who 00:10:17.730 --> 00:10:20.769 were working at the Synod, the Synod of Bishops, 00:10:20.929 --> 00:10:23.990 and the Synod that Pope Francis ran with lay 00:10:23.990 --> 00:10:29.110 people a few times already, when you're done 00:10:29.110 --> 00:10:32.960 talking, and you start listening, don't take 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:34.840 your listening time to prepare what you're going 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:38.720 to say next. Take your listening time to listen. 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:42.860 And then there'll be a moment where you reflect 00:10:42.860 --> 00:10:45.700 back what you just heard to make sure you really 00:10:45.700 --> 00:10:48.700 were listening. Otherwise, it's really a crossing 00:10:48.700 --> 00:10:53.759 of two monologues. And I was at, we do some work 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:55.700 with the Dicastery for Interreligious Dialogue 00:10:55.700 --> 00:10:58.389 at the Vatican. I was there last week. And one 00:10:58.389 --> 00:10:59.990 of the things that got brought up in this new 00:10:59.990 --> 00:11:05.269 document they're working on, the dialogue and 00:11:05.269 --> 00:11:08.289 evangelization go together, but they're actually 00:11:08.289 --> 00:11:13.509 two different things. We actually don't go into 00:11:13.509 --> 00:11:19.169 dialogue to convert people. I mean, the Church 00:11:19.169 --> 00:11:21.409 even says that in her official teaching about 00:11:21.409 --> 00:11:22.730 it, which is very interesting. You've got to 00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:26.230 be very careful about that. You go into dialogue 00:11:26.230 --> 00:11:29.409 because you're going to learn something. You 00:11:29.409 --> 00:11:31.830 feel like you have something to receive, not 00:11:31.830 --> 00:11:34.769 just something to give. I'm not going in with 00:11:34.769 --> 00:11:37.529 an ulterior motive to convert you. I'm going 00:11:37.529 --> 00:11:39.809 in to say, what do I have to learn from this 00:11:39.809 --> 00:11:43.110 conversation? And I put it in three points quite 00:11:43.110 --> 00:11:45.509 often with this, so I'm very careful. One is 00:11:45.509 --> 00:11:51.990 that we always have the mandate from Jesus himself 00:11:51.990 --> 00:11:55.909 to spread the good news. Now, how we do that 00:11:55.909 --> 00:11:57.470 is a whole different way. It doesn't have to 00:11:57.470 --> 00:11:59.629 always be done with words. We always have the 00:11:59.629 --> 00:12:03.730 mandate to spread the good news. Secondly, second 00:12:03.730 --> 00:12:07.490 point is dialogue is not about evangelization. 00:12:07.769 --> 00:12:11.710 Dialogue is not about converting anybody. My 00:12:11.710 --> 00:12:14.909 third point is, but dialogue may be the most 00:12:14.909 --> 00:12:18.440 beautiful face of the church. It may be actually 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.360 the best way to convert somebody. Maybe not to 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:23.919 convert them to Catholicism, but to show them 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:26.240 that we're actually pretty noble souls ourselves. 00:12:26.980 --> 00:12:30.139 You come in with humility and openness and gentleness 00:12:30.139 --> 00:12:35.059 and kindness. When I talk about apologists and 00:12:35.059 --> 00:12:37.200 people talking about being apologists and they're 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:40.179 arguing rationally for the truth and the doctrines 00:12:40.179 --> 00:12:43.019 of our faith, I think of myself as an apologist 00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:46.100 too. But an apologist in the sense that I'm often 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:49.159 in places where people don't take Christianity 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:52.879 seriously at all. They just dismiss Catholicism 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.460 completely away and think it's so irrelevant. 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.480 I'm an apologist in the sense that I just want 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:00.399 to show you we actually have something to offer. 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:04.620 That's all. If I could just get that far and 00:13:04.620 --> 00:13:09.179 that here I am, a white American Christian, and 00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:14.299 I'm not being a jerk. I mean, the best apology 00:13:14.299 --> 00:13:16.460 you can offer right now, you know, in some places 00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:20.279 in Europe. For sure. Really, I'm not kidding 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.799 at all. That may be the best thing you can be 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:25.340 right now in some places in Europe. A white Christian 00:13:25.340 --> 00:13:29.059 from America who's not a jerk. Yes. Well, and 00:13:29.059 --> 00:13:31.259 it goes back to what you said. I don't know if 00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:32.659 you're going to want to edit that out in the 00:13:32.659 --> 00:13:35.840 final version. Hey, I mean, it sounds accurate 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:40.259 to me. Leave it in. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but there's 00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:48.059 a... There's a gift today to sitting and listening. 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.620 I feel like that's something that not a lot of 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:54.720 people do, and that itself almost becomes its 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:59.399 own... This word would need deconstructed, too, 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.460 but there is a sense of evangelization in that 00:14:02.460 --> 00:14:06.259 because you're not converting, but you're... 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:09.639 My goodness, man. And I felt this with you the 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:14.139 first time we met in Rome, where the gift you 00:14:14.139 --> 00:14:18.840 were giving me of listening and daring to understand 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:24.539 me and my story. And then you and I were... we 00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:26.080 were kind of giving each other the green light 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:28.879 to keep playing, you know, then we're into Martin, 00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:31.179 then we're into, you know, Franciscan theology, 00:14:31.419 --> 00:14:35.019 then we're into Benedictine, that tradition that 00:14:35.019 --> 00:14:37.100 is really formed you. And, you know, I mean, 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:40.980 like it, you don't know where it's going in dial 00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:43.600 in like the best dialogue. It seems you don't 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.539 really know where it's going, but it's animated 00:14:46.539 --> 00:14:50.860 by receiving what the other is saying. And also 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:54.320 a new land opens up. You know, there was a beautiful 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:58.639 description of relationship. Is her name Maria 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:05.399 Popov? The one who does the... Oh, Maria Popova, 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:09.539 the... That's it, yeah. Yeah, she used to do 00:15:09.539 --> 00:15:13.539 brain pickings. Yeah, it's just a new name now. 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:18.799 Yeah, the marginal... Marginalia? Marginalia, 00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:24.190 yeah. This is a really good description of the 00:15:24.190 --> 00:15:28.389 Trinity, actually, that there's two and a third 00:15:28.389 --> 00:15:32.269 is born from the two. It's the third thing that's 00:15:32.269 --> 00:15:36.710 not one and not the other. That's a great description 00:15:36.710 --> 00:15:40.190 of procreative love anyway. It's a great description 00:15:40.190 --> 00:15:43.190 of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit. But that's 00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:45.250 a great description of dialogue. I mean, what 00:15:45.250 --> 00:15:48.389 happens when there's real dialogue is a third 00:15:48.389 --> 00:15:52.149 thing, like a new land is formed in a sense. 00:15:52.529 --> 00:16:01.590 We're inside that new relationship. For this 00:16:01.590 --> 00:16:03.649 first -minute meditation, I wanted to spend some 00:16:03.649 --> 00:16:05.929 time with what Father Ciprian shared. He said, 00:16:06.049 --> 00:16:09.149 dialogue is not a crossing of two monologues. 00:16:09.769 --> 00:16:12.529 This may lead us to sit with a number of questions 00:16:12.529 --> 00:16:15.889 for this first meditation. The first being, how 00:16:15.889 --> 00:16:19.730 do we fight against this exactly? Another, how 00:16:19.730 --> 00:16:22.690 do we keep our egos in check in real time? These 00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:25.950 egos that long to be right or prove a point. 00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:28.830 And how do we fight against formulating a response 00:16:28.830 --> 00:16:32.110 in our heads while someone else is talking? And 00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:35.320 lastly... How do we play, how do each of us play 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.919 our own part in entering into the mystery of 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.539 dialogue so that a new land might begin to form 00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:45.039 for us to explore, as Father Cyprian said? And 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.360 of course, in the exploration of this new land, 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:51.240 we learn and we grow. Our consciousness evolves. 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.639 And I wanted to share with you these words from 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:58.220 Father Cyprian's essay, A Body You Have Prepared 00:16:58.220 --> 00:17:00.779 for Me, which is included in his new book, Epiphanies 00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:03.529 of Nature and Grace. And I wanted to share them 00:17:03.529 --> 00:17:06.269 with you because I think they invite us into, 00:17:06.490 --> 00:17:10.349 they invite an inner posture of silence and stillness 00:17:10.349 --> 00:17:13.690 that makes our souls more receptive. And I think 00:17:13.690 --> 00:17:17.289 that receptivity is such an important spiritual 00:17:17.289 --> 00:17:20.430 posture to cultivate when it comes to dialogue 00:17:20.430 --> 00:17:26.549 because it's difficult to see truth and goodness 00:17:26.549 --> 00:17:29.930 and beauty in the other when we're not even open 00:17:29.930 --> 00:17:34.619 to receiving it. So Father Cyprian writes, quote, 00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:37.859 therefore silence ought to be the fundamental 00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:44.980 condition of our heart, maybe even of our bodies. 00:17:45.700 --> 00:17:50.880 We empty ourselves and sit waiting. It is for 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.900 this that a body has been prepared for us so 00:17:53.900 --> 00:17:56.140 that the word would make a home in our heart 00:17:56.140 --> 00:18:00.039 so that our whole being. body, soul, and spirit 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.720 would become a receptivity and the word would 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.319 take flesh and become incarnate in us too. And 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:10.500 we once again and continually give birth to Christ 00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:22.839 in the world. Now back to the conversation. That's 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:25.420 a beautiful way to put it. Yeah, because it really 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:29.990 does. We've all felt that when you're in the 00:18:29.990 --> 00:18:32.990 flow, in conversation, or just the presence of 00:18:32.990 --> 00:18:35.670 someone. It really does feel like you're kind 00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:40.130 of discovering a new land together. And you don't 00:18:40.130 --> 00:18:45.690 have a map for that land. But the listening and 00:18:45.690 --> 00:18:48.809 receiving and the comfort of that is enough of 00:18:48.809 --> 00:18:51.299 a map. because you know it's safe you know it's 00:18:51.299 --> 00:18:54.200 like okay let's keep going let's keep traversing 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:56.500 this landscape yeah because you've got company 00:18:56.500 --> 00:19:01.960 too yes you're not alone yeah yeah yeah you mentioned 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:05.299 um you mentioned bead griffiths and you have 00:19:05.299 --> 00:19:08.859 he shows up again and again throughout your book 00:19:08.859 --> 00:19:12.640 and there there was one passage where you it 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:16.000 was really great you said something You said 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.700 something like, I realized that I wanted what 00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:23.200 he had. Can you go a little bit deeper into that 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.980 for me and what it was about him that was so 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:31.079 appealing to you and so life -giving to you on 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:34.440 some level? I go back to that moment so often 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:36.880 and actually talk about it so often because it's 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.000 a great life lesson. I was not even officially 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.960 part of the monastic community yet. I was just 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.180 on a period that they call the observership. 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:49.019 a two -month observership and b griffith showed 00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:52.480 up i i got there in mid -august i think he showed 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:55.000 up like in mid -september with an entourage of 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.579 people with him um can you give listeners a understanding 00:19:59.579 --> 00:20:03.940 of who bead was first yeah um early on he was 00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:08.500 a very brilliant student of c .s lewis at oxford 00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:12.049 Matter of fact, he and C .S. Lewis both converted 00:20:12.049 --> 00:20:14.869 to Christianity at the same time, stayed great 00:20:14.869 --> 00:20:18.190 friends, and C .S. Lewis actually dedicated his 00:20:18.190 --> 00:20:21.630 first autobiography, Surprised by Joy, to Bede. 00:20:22.309 --> 00:20:27.589 Not know that. Wow. And then Bede joined the 00:20:27.589 --> 00:20:31.970 monastery in the Cotswolds in central England, 00:20:32.309 --> 00:20:36.869 British Abbey, was there for some, I want to 00:20:36.869 --> 00:20:41.220 say, 20 years or so, and had been introduced 00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:45.099 to Asian thought by a first -generation student 00:20:45.099 --> 00:20:47.539 of Carl Jung, by someone who was a student of 00:20:47.539 --> 00:20:51.539 Carl Jung, and got an offer to go to India in 00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:56.970 1955. Went to India. to try to start a new Benedictine 00:20:56.970 --> 00:20:58.950 community there. It didn't go, but then he met 00:20:58.950 --> 00:21:00.769 a Trappist monk, and the two of them started 00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:03.710 an ashram that's still going on called Puru Samala 00:21:03.710 --> 00:21:08.819 in Kerala in southwest India. and after 10 years 00:21:08.819 --> 00:21:11.259 then he was asked to take over another ashram 00:21:11.259 --> 00:21:15.819 south east india called shanti or sachitananda 00:21:15.819 --> 00:21:18.319 ashram that had been founded by two frenchmen 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:20.700 one of them had died and the other one had become 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:23.900 kind of a wandering monk these great early experiments 00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:27.559 in dialogue by not just enculturation but really 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.799 incarnating catholic religious life in a new 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.859 way you know and it's using the genius of of 00:21:34.329 --> 00:21:36.869 of native genius of india in that particular 00:21:36.869 --> 00:21:40.329 way along the way then deed started writing he 00:21:40.329 --> 00:21:43.950 wrote a whole series of books basically the way 00:21:43.950 --> 00:21:47.170 i would describe it is re -articulating the christian 00:21:47.170 --> 00:21:50.930 kerygma from a different point of view because 00:21:50.930 --> 00:21:54.410 he could be articulated from the point of view 00:21:54.410 --> 00:21:58.509 of asia himself being very well steeped in classic 00:21:58.509 --> 00:22:02.420 western philosophy and literature Absolutely. 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.940 He studied classics under C .S. Lewis. But then 00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:09.519 to be able to re -articulate, not using necessarily 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:11.920 Western philosophical or Western mythological 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:16.940 terms, it had quite a great effect on me as I 00:22:16.940 --> 00:22:22.900 started reading his works. Anyway, he died only 00:22:22.900 --> 00:22:25.599 seven months after I met him there. He went back 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:27.799 to India and consequently dies. He was on his 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:30.220 last trip. away from India. He was on his way 00:22:30.220 --> 00:22:34.319 back to India. Came for a couple of days. And 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:36.259 I don't remember if it was before or after he 00:22:36.259 --> 00:22:39.839 talked, but we have meditation every night for 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:42.400 half an hour in this beautiful rotunda of the 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.779 chapel in New Kamadli and Big Sur, which you've 00:22:44.779 --> 00:22:47.500 been to and you've seen with the Blessed Sacrament 00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:50.559 on the altar. And where I would sat and sat for 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:54.000 30 years was just opposite of where Father Beach 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.960 sat on a bench. And I remember, I know this phrase, 00:22:58.059 --> 00:22:59.920 it's a phrase that comes from the 12 -step program, 00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:02.380 if you want what we have and are willing to go 00:23:02.380 --> 00:23:05.740 to any length to get it. I remember gazing both 00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:08.160 at the Blessed Sacrament on the altar and at 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:10.519 Father Bede on the other side. And the first 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:13.299 time I ever said those words, meaning out loud, 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:18.140 I want what he has. Whatever that is, I want 00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:22.579 that. There was something about him, so dignified, 00:23:22.579 --> 00:23:25.589 first of all. When he spoke, it was with this 00:23:25.589 --> 00:23:29.769 authority that came from not just education, 00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:33.250 but from deep experience, deep spiritual experience 00:23:33.250 --> 00:23:39.589 that conveyed both authority and humility at 00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:42.849 the same time. Even when he was challenging the 00:23:42.849 --> 00:23:46.109 church, it came from a place of really belonging 00:23:46.109 --> 00:23:52.980 in the church as well. This Saturday, part of 00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:54.900 his trip there, and I wish I could remember all 00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:57.220 the days, but maybe he was there six days and 00:23:57.220 --> 00:24:00.599 right in the blues this weekend. He gave a talk 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.799 at what we call chapter meeting and invited all 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:06.180 the retreatants that were there also to come 00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:10.059 in and listen to him. And I keep telling people, 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.259 I walked in here and I walked out here to turn 00:24:14.259 --> 00:24:18.440 my life around. The two topics especially we 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:21.319 talked about, I thought, That's the language 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:23.640 I've been looking for all of my life and I didn't 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.160 even know I was looking for it. My first two 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:29.240 books are actually on those same two topics. 00:24:29.980 --> 00:24:34.980 Now, 33 going on 34 years later, I'm still living 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:38.460 off of that inspiration. That's the effect we 00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:41.319 can have on people. A brief encounter like that 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:43.440 can change our entire life and change the direction 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:46.579 of our life. It's really cool. I don't tell the 00:24:46.579 --> 00:24:52.470 story very often. took this new job on monastic 00:24:52.470 --> 00:24:54.690 inter -religious dialogue, and really that roots 00:24:54.690 --> 00:24:57.450 are back on that meeting Father Bede, really, 00:24:57.490 --> 00:25:01.250 how I got involved in this. In mid -September, 00:25:01.269 --> 00:25:03.589 I want to say it was like the 15th of September 00:25:03.589 --> 00:25:08.569 of 2024, here in Rome at the big Congress of 00:25:08.569 --> 00:25:10.549 Abbots and Priors, I was formally introduced. 00:25:11.710 --> 00:25:13.829 So I felt like that was the day I really officially 00:25:13.829 --> 00:25:18.789 started the job. And the next day, I got on a 00:25:18.789 --> 00:25:22.170 plane and I was flying to Warsaw and I was to 00:25:22.170 --> 00:25:25.269 be giving a weekend retreat on the life and teaching 00:25:25.269 --> 00:25:28.130 of B. Griffiths to Benedictine Oblates and members 00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:30.130 of the World Community for Christian Meditation. 00:25:30.349 --> 00:25:33.029 I was like halfway there on the plane, I suddenly 00:25:33.029 --> 00:25:36.190 realized. the first official thing I'm doing 00:25:36.190 --> 00:25:38.509 is giving a retreat on the teachings of Father 00:25:38.509 --> 00:25:41.069 Pete Griffiths. I hadn't even thought of that 00:25:41.069 --> 00:25:43.710 until that moment. And yeah, tears welled up 00:25:43.710 --> 00:25:47.269 in my eyes and I just washed in consolation thinking, 00:25:47.569 --> 00:25:51.170 wow, I'm in the absolute right place. I'm in 00:25:51.170 --> 00:25:54.410 the absolute right place. Oh, that is awesome. 00:25:54.589 --> 00:25:58.269 Yeah, it's almost like a full circle moment, 00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:02.089 but at the same time, just beginning. That's 00:26:02.089 --> 00:26:05.740 your first kind of, gig in this new role and 00:26:05.740 --> 00:26:08.619 it has to do with this person who you just looked 00:26:08.619 --> 00:26:13.279 up to so much um to go back to that scene where 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.839 you're where you're receiving what he says and 00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:19.680 you know you're you're thinking like man i want 00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.920 what he has what was it about what he was articulating 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:29.200 um that really moved you on a deep level? The 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:31.259 first thing we've kind of already mentioned, 00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:33.859 this idea that being a universal wisdom or a 00:26:33.859 --> 00:26:36.859 perennial philosophy, that we actually have things 00:26:36.859 --> 00:26:41.980 to learn from other traditions. Man, I could 00:26:41.980 --> 00:26:44.039 just go on and on about that for hours, but that 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:46.059 was the first thing I would call that universal 00:26:46.059 --> 00:26:49.720 wisdom. We could learn from other traditions, 00:26:49.819 --> 00:26:54.180 even to say that perhaps another tradition has 00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:57.460 articulated something. in a way that would never 00:26:57.460 --> 00:27:00.299 occur to us, that we haven't even uncovered. 00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:03.259 Not that it doesn't, the technical word would 00:27:03.259 --> 00:27:06.740 be subsist. Not that it doesn't subsist in Christianity 00:27:06.740 --> 00:27:10.480 and Catholicism, but even if it subsists, that 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:12.160 doesn't mean we've actually understood it or 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.579 uncovered it. Another tradition might be able 00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:16.960 to help us find something in our own tradition 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.259 and we didn't even know it was there. That's 00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:21.359 the first thing, universal wisdom, and that's 00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:24.480 that opening up that idea of dialogue. That got 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:28.250 me launched into into studying other traditions, 00:27:28.450 --> 00:27:33.150 we had a relationship with a Buddhist monastery 00:27:33.150 --> 00:27:37.049 at the time in my community. And when I told 00:27:37.049 --> 00:27:39.549 the prior at the time, the head of the community 00:27:39.549 --> 00:27:41.569 that I was really interested in this, he said 00:27:41.569 --> 00:27:44.170 right away, why don't you study Buddhism then? 00:27:44.230 --> 00:27:47.170 Because we have such a good relationship with 00:27:47.170 --> 00:27:49.809 this, it's called Tassajara Zen Mountain Center. 00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:53.509 And so I put myself through kind of a self... 00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:57.009 self -study on the history of Buddhism as I was 00:27:57.009 --> 00:28:00.329 studying Western mysticism and the history of 00:28:00.329 --> 00:28:03.029 monasticism and liturgy. It was very cool. And 00:28:03.029 --> 00:28:05.829 reading all of Father Bede's writings. So that 00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:08.269 got me started on that path. So the first thing 00:28:08.269 --> 00:28:11.849 was the universal wisdom. And the second thing 00:28:11.849 --> 00:28:16.210 was, and this may seem so subtle, but to this 00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:22.190 day, I'm still on this topic. Bede had this notion, 00:28:22.329 --> 00:28:24.740 he said it was It consumed all of his thinking 00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:28.500 in his late years of an anthropology of the human 00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:32.799 person, not just his body and soul, but his body, 00:28:32.859 --> 00:28:37.480 soul, and spirit. Think of that third element. 00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:40.180 And there was a bridge there to other traditions 00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:43.099 who have this holistic view of spirituality. 00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:46.940 Now, all three of those elements have a very 00:28:46.940 --> 00:28:51.970 special meaning to them. First of all, the idea 00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:55.670 of the body, which is not just the body, it's 00:28:55.670 --> 00:29:01.329 actually materiality in general. We don't have 00:29:01.329 --> 00:29:03.509 a real good track record of this in Christianity, 00:29:04.069 --> 00:29:06.750 which is so surprising because we're the ones 00:29:06.750 --> 00:29:08.710 who believe that the Word was made flesh and 00:29:08.710 --> 00:29:11.109 dwelt among us and that Jesus rose from the dead 00:29:11.109 --> 00:29:13.329 with his body and ascended to the right hand 00:29:13.329 --> 00:29:15.690 of the Father in glory. We don't have a good 00:29:15.690 --> 00:29:19.940 track record with this. We get told what not 00:29:19.940 --> 00:29:22.500 to do with our bodies. We rarely get told what 00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:25.079 to do with our bodies. Like the body is a positive 00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:28.500 thing in the spiritual life. And that now, again, 00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:32.059 33, 34 years later, I'm still digging into that, 00:29:32.140 --> 00:29:35.539 trying to find an integral spirituality to respect 00:29:35.539 --> 00:29:39.880 both the body and a way to realize that Pope 00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:42.059 Francis did a great job on this with Laudato 00:29:42.059 --> 00:29:45.900 Si, especially. that the earth itself, that material 00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:50.339 reality is soaked with divinity, Gerald Manley 00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:56.579 Hopkins would say. And then the idea of, I'll 00:29:56.579 --> 00:30:01.160 skip to the other end, the spirit at that point 00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:06.660 means that which is actually beyond all phenomena, 00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:10.880 beyond all words and images in the realm of total 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.579 mystery, but it's also a fathomless, not just 00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:17.160 a fathomless depth of God, it's a fathomless 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:21.339 depth of us. It's a mysterious depth of us where 00:30:21.339 --> 00:30:25.319 we are in some way already in union with God. 00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:30.319 It's a place where we're already, that we don't 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.039 have to make that happen. We just have to uncover 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:36.059 and realize that that's there if for no other 00:30:36.059 --> 00:30:38.319 reason than the fact that St. Paul says the love 00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:40.299 of God is poured into our hearts by the Spirit 00:30:40.299 --> 00:30:44.359 living in us. So there's this... part of us that's 00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:47.160 beyond all words and images and beyond all understanding 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:50.240 that's a reunion with god and that's the invitation 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:52.720 to the contemplative life the contemplative practice 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:57.619 that's why we meditate is to realize that and 00:30:57.619 --> 00:31:01.279 in between the material and the spiritual between 00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:05.319 the body and the spirit there's this this is 00:31:05.319 --> 00:31:07.559 an amazing realm here and i think a lot of my 00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:11.359 thought is focused on this these days is that 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:17.359 the soul the psyche as a whole spectrum of consciousness. 00:31:18.140 --> 00:31:21.240 And remember that word psique in Greek, that 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:23.579 psique, that is the words usually translated 00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:27.880 as soul. So psychology and psychiatry and psychotherapy 00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:31.059 and anything dealing with psyche is part of soul. 00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:35.930 That begins like... with the senses and emotions 00:31:35.930 --> 00:31:40.589 and the rational mind, which we usually get trapped 00:31:40.589 --> 00:31:44.269 in, and the intuitive mind and the higher forms 00:31:44.269 --> 00:31:48.769 of consciousness. And that whole realm is a bridge 00:31:48.769 --> 00:31:52.349 between the material and the spiritual. And for 00:31:52.349 --> 00:31:58.170 that to be open and clear provides this pathway 00:31:58.170 --> 00:32:02.339 from the... From the material to the spiritual. 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:06.279 So the soul is this great tunnel of consciousness 00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:08.799 between the material and the spiritual. You see, 00:32:08.859 --> 00:32:11.220 I'm still so excited about this 34 years later. 00:32:11.539 --> 00:32:14.680 I love it, man. This is awesome. Yeah. A tunnel 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:17.480 of consciousness. Are you kidding me? I just 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:22.099 made that one up. So good. And actually, this 00:32:22.099 --> 00:32:24.539 is a lot of what I've been focused on the past 00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:29.250 couple of years. more and more exploring this 00:32:29.250 --> 00:32:33.009 whole spectrum of consciousness that not only 00:32:33.009 --> 00:32:36.130 opens up when we make this interior journey, 00:32:36.289 --> 00:32:39.109 because it's almost like a region that we have 00:32:39.109 --> 00:32:41.910 to pass through if we want to make this journey 00:32:41.910 --> 00:32:45.549 to the deepest part of ourselves, but also this 00:32:45.549 --> 00:32:50.819 belief that consciousness itself the great argument 00:32:50.819 --> 00:32:53.319 that goes on in science, we don't believe consciousness 00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:57.559 is just a product of the brain. We believe consciousness 00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:00.440 is something we share in. It's a fundament of 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:05.039 reality. So my consciousness is part of a bigger 00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:08.299 consciousness. And we're really right on the 00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:11.839 realm here of things like the Logos and the Greeks 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:16.220 and the Tao of China. but also the word, the 00:33:16.220 --> 00:33:21.599 second person of the Trinity, as this great personification 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:26.559 of all consciousness. And belief that consciousness 00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.420 itself is energy and consciousness itself is 00:33:29.420 --> 00:33:32.019 evolving. This is a great conversation to be 00:33:32.019 --> 00:33:34.839 had, not only with other traditions who are comfortable, 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:37.359 Buddhism and Hinduism, Taoism are very comfortable 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:40.039 with this language. This is a great conversation 00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:43.809 to be had with quantum physics right now. And 00:33:43.809 --> 00:33:46.170 there's great conversations happening about this. 00:33:46.549 --> 00:33:49.289 Yeah, you mentioned, I wanted you to go deeper 00:33:49.289 --> 00:33:51.730 into this, because this was another theme in 00:33:51.730 --> 00:33:55.190 your book. It showed up again and again, this 00:33:55.190 --> 00:34:02.369 theology of the word, the logos. And how that 00:34:02.369 --> 00:34:06.869 itself is a kind of universal wisdom that can 00:34:06.869 --> 00:34:10.829 hold a lot together and kind of create that space 00:34:10.829 --> 00:34:14.489 for interreligious dialogue. So can you go into 00:34:14.489 --> 00:34:17.230 that? Like, what is the theology of the word? 00:34:17.469 --> 00:34:21.329 And why would you say it's important? Yeah. And 00:34:21.329 --> 00:34:24.929 even dialogue in general, not just the interreligious, 00:34:25.010 --> 00:34:27.969 that's where it opens up to the dialogue in general. 00:34:28.050 --> 00:34:31.840 Yes. The easiest way. which I use quite often. 00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:35.260 The Greeks talked about beauty, truth, and goodness 00:34:35.260 --> 00:34:42.780 as the transcendentals. Well, if we believe that 00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:49.699 Jesus, the Christ, is the Word made flesh, let's 00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:53.940 remember that the word Word doesn't mean words. 00:34:54.559 --> 00:35:00.699 Word is our translation of the Greek logos. which 00:35:00.699 --> 00:35:03.619 in the ancient Greek tradition was something 00:35:03.619 --> 00:35:10.800 like this divine intelligence that saturated 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:17.219 reality like fire. It's not words. It's the word 00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:21.239 before words. It's the logos before logic, logic 00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.460 even. It's that great intelligence that we believe 00:35:24.460 --> 00:35:32.119 is divine. that go along with the beauty, truth, 00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:36.219 and goodness, if we believe Jesus as Word made 00:35:36.219 --> 00:35:38.739 flesh, the second person of the Trinity, first 00:35:38.739 --> 00:35:41.519 and foremost, and I'll say this very carefully, 00:35:41.619 --> 00:35:44.099 but I can get theologians to back me up, even 00:35:44.099 --> 00:35:47.940 before Jesus was born, there was a second person 00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:52.139 of the Trinity that is that. That is that Logos. 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:55.980 Prologue of John's Gospel says that. It's totally 00:35:55.980 --> 00:35:57.820 there. It's totally there. The beginning was 00:35:57.820 --> 00:36:02.360 the Word. Yep. And do you know when the prologue 00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:04.480 of the Gospel of John, I don't read Mandarin, 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:10.059 but I've checked with people who do. Every translation 00:36:10.059 --> 00:36:12.699 I've found of the prologue of John in Chinese 00:36:12.699 --> 00:36:18.000 says, in the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:23.440 was with God, and the Tao was God, and the Tao 00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:26.900 was made flesh and dwelt among us. Now that means... 00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:30.610 I can read Taoist literature and learn something 00:36:30.610 --> 00:36:35.030 about God. Yeah. You can learn something about 00:36:35.030 --> 00:36:38.429 the second person of the Trinity by reading Taoist 00:36:38.429 --> 00:36:41.769 literature. Yeah, yes. Because we believe that 00:36:41.769 --> 00:36:45.130 even that is fulfilled in the Tao -made flesh 00:36:45.130 --> 00:36:49.170 in Jesus. So I deviated a little bit there, but 00:36:49.170 --> 00:36:52.789 since we brought up the Tao. Let me go back to 00:36:52.789 --> 00:36:57.469 this idea of beauty, truth, and goodness. So 00:36:57.469 --> 00:37:03.150 wherever I see beauty or truth or goodness manifesting, 00:37:03.250 --> 00:37:06.090 this is really the second person of the Trinity 00:37:06.090 --> 00:37:09.809 manifesting, at least in seed form. If that be 00:37:09.809 --> 00:37:14.369 a Mozart string quartet, if that be a rose blooming, 00:37:14.630 --> 00:37:19.530 if that be somebody giving their life in self 00:37:19.530 --> 00:37:23.929 -sacrifice and service for justice, if that be 00:37:23.929 --> 00:37:27.750 a... a scientific formula for quantum physics 00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:33.630 or for a mathematical equation. If it's true, 00:37:33.710 --> 00:37:36.769 it's godly. It's the second person of the Trinity 00:37:36.769 --> 00:37:40.269 already manifesting. So this was actually part 00:37:40.269 --> 00:37:42.369 of a prayer I offered this morning in our morning 00:37:42.369 --> 00:37:46.269 prayer. Today the reading is about the glory 00:37:46.269 --> 00:37:48.750 of God filling the temple, you know, in Solomon's 00:37:48.750 --> 00:37:52.579 temple. And I prayed, oh, that today would be 00:37:52.579 --> 00:37:55.019 full of manifestations of God and that we would 00:37:55.019 --> 00:37:59.099 see them. God is manifesting. The second person 00:37:59.099 --> 00:38:00.780 of the Trinity is manifesting. I'm looking out 00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:03.079 here right now at this beautiful landscape of 00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:05.980 Rome in the sunset. That's the second person 00:38:05.980 --> 00:38:09.780 of the Trinity manifesting there. Yeah. Well, 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:12.840 in this, I'll bring in our mutual friend, how 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:16.159 we met. Father Dan Riley passed away a couple 00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:20.429 years ago. Is it a couple years ago now? Yeah, 00:38:20.489 --> 00:38:23.789 I mean... It's almost two years. 2024. Yeah, 00:38:23.909 --> 00:38:27.730 it's crazy. His birthday was just two days ago. 00:38:28.429 --> 00:38:34.869 Wow. Yeah, but he kind of makes the... As you 00:38:34.869 --> 00:38:38.349 know, he takes the word, the logos, and then 00:38:38.349 --> 00:38:41.269 has some kind of fun with that with Lexio. And 00:38:41.269 --> 00:38:43.730 I think this leads right into dialogue too, is 00:38:43.730 --> 00:38:46.179 that... like you're talking about the sunset 00:38:46.179 --> 00:38:51.639 in Rome, here's the word, and I'm invited to 00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:58.820 read that word, which is you're open to, you 00:38:58.820 --> 00:39:01.380 open yourself up to it. Even, and this is the 00:39:01.380 --> 00:39:04.380 challenge for me, it's like. Even if I have an 00:39:04.380 --> 00:39:06.780 agenda and I'm trying to accomplish this one 00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:10.440 thing and I'm in that production kind of work 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:14.659 mindset and I've got to lock in here, tunnel 00:39:14.659 --> 00:39:18.400 vision, all this stuff, here comes a word bursting 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:26.119 through and I'm invited to read it. Do you have 00:39:26.119 --> 00:39:29.739 anything to add there? the direction father dan 00:39:29.739 --> 00:39:32.980 goes with that uh of course he wrote a book about 00:39:32.980 --> 00:39:35.039 that i was you know really privileged to help 00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:40.219 him with but it's uh because i found that kind 00:39:40.219 --> 00:39:43.199 of disposition to be very liberating and free 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:46.659 like the word is always here that universal pattern 00:39:46.659 --> 00:39:49.719 that the second person of the trinity manifested 00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:54.380 like it it it shows up all the time and yeah 00:39:54.380 --> 00:39:59.050 and i can almost It can help with my deprogramming, 00:39:59.050 --> 00:40:01.530 and this gets into consciousness again. It helps 00:40:01.530 --> 00:40:04.889 me to kind of deprogram the things that I'm thinking 00:40:04.889 --> 00:40:09.150 are reality that actually aren't when I'm invited 00:40:09.150 --> 00:40:13.670 to read the word and experience it. And oftentimes, 00:40:13.949 --> 00:40:16.130 this is the last thing I'll say, I mean, it's 00:40:16.130 --> 00:40:18.590 not like this is always a euphoric, blissful 00:40:18.590 --> 00:40:21.099 experience either. you know, like sometimes, 00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.880 sometimes it is like, sometimes it is that moment 00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:27.519 of you and, and father bead. We're like, Oh my 00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:30.780 gosh, like something huge is opening up for me 00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:33.559 right now. Um, it was certainly that way for 00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:35.800 me with father Dan, um, learning some of the 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.260 stuff from him, but then other times it's, it's 00:40:39.260 --> 00:40:42.079 my child running in, you know, to my office while 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:44.400 I'm working, thinking that I really have to get 00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.760 this done, but I don't like the words right there. 00:40:48.230 --> 00:40:50.230 And I'm invited to read it. And I still have 00:40:50.230 --> 00:40:52.949 to get it done. And it's not some euphoric thing, 00:40:53.050 --> 00:40:56.409 but it's enough. It's enough and it does something. 00:40:56.590 --> 00:40:58.650 I don't know. I could go on and on about this. 00:40:58.710 --> 00:41:01.150 Do you have anything to add there? I was just 00:41:01.150 --> 00:41:03.610 thinking when I was a prior of our community 00:41:03.610 --> 00:41:06.969 back in California, I tend to be very task -oriented. 00:41:07.909 --> 00:41:12.130 I'd have my head down and my shoulders hunched 00:41:12.130 --> 00:41:14.769 and I got an armful of books and I'm walking 00:41:14.769 --> 00:41:18.880 from my cell to my office. And Brother Joshua 00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:24.119 would stop and he'd go, I don't have, oh yes, 00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:28.079 I do have time for you. I do have time for you. 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:30.300 You're more important than whatever is under 00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:34.139 my arm right now. Because we often miss these 00:41:34.139 --> 00:41:36.820 epiphanies because we're so busy with our own 00:41:36.820 --> 00:41:40.019 agenda. These epiphanies of nature and grace. 00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:44.079 Yeah, and I think this is, yeah, go ahead. I 00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.900 was just going to say, or Bad Bunny. I was weeping 00:41:47.900 --> 00:41:51.039 watching the video of that. Just the exuberance, 00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:54.760 the joy, the positivity. There's a truth there 00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:58.199 that we really need to hear. And to have that 00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:01.400 big banner and that big billboard that said, 00:42:01.460 --> 00:42:04.679 the only thing I hate is love. Oh, that just 00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:08.300 destroyed me. Somebody could be so positive. 00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:12.980 in the face of such ugliness that's going on 00:42:12.980 --> 00:42:17.940 yes yeah and that's that beauty truth and goodness 00:42:17.940 --> 00:42:21.420 rising up again it's the manifestation of the 00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:24.639 word through yeah a super bowl halftime show 00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:28.119 that bad bunny is headlining yeah and we need 00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:33.019 to recognize and celebrate it wherever it is 00:42:33.019 --> 00:42:36.260 and that's our that's to me that's the first 00:42:36.260 --> 00:42:39.960 stage of evangelization it's maybe even Re -evangelization. 00:42:40.460 --> 00:42:43.260 But it doesn't just evangelize them, it evangelizes 00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:47.699 us to realize God is already present here. What 00:42:47.699 --> 00:42:51.719 does Jacob say? And I didn't know it. God was 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:55.519 here and I didn't even know it. Yes. Yeah, I 00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:57.440 think I've mentioned this to you before, but 00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:01.260 I've certainly mentioned him on the podcast before, 00:43:01.380 --> 00:43:04.780 but one of my favorite modern philosophers, Peter 00:43:04.780 --> 00:43:10.289 Rollins, he talks about how He used to organize 00:43:10.289 --> 00:43:14.929 these evangelism teams, he called them, in Ireland. 00:43:15.449 --> 00:43:17.730 So it would be a group of mostly Christians, 00:43:17.869 --> 00:43:21.269 and they would go to these religious communities. 00:43:21.429 --> 00:43:27.210 But here's the flip. The goal was not to share 00:43:27.210 --> 00:43:31.510 anything about what they believed. It was they 00:43:31.510 --> 00:43:36.599 wanted to be evangelized too. So they were evangelism 00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:39.340 teams, but it was, we want you to evangelize 00:43:39.340 --> 00:43:43.739 us. Reverse evangelization. Yes. Show me beauty, 00:43:43.820 --> 00:43:46.420 truth, and goodness. Show me what I'm missing. 00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.639 And I think that you said it, I mean, that posture 00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:55.380 of, I want to experience truth and beauty and 00:43:55.380 --> 00:43:58.360 goodness in the places and people I least expect 00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:04.079 it. That's very important for dialogue, I think. 00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:08.739 And this is the kind of shift in attitude, even 00:44:08.739 --> 00:44:11.960 in the religious dialogue and in our understanding 00:44:11.960 --> 00:44:17.300 of evangelization. Again, not living up to our 00:44:17.300 --> 00:44:23.900 own highest standards quite often. So many examples 00:44:23.900 --> 00:44:28.980 of this. We thought, or we acted as if evangelization 00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:32.659 meant... going in and replacing whatever was 00:44:32.659 --> 00:44:35.900 there with Western Christianity, which included 00:44:35.900 --> 00:44:41.980 Gregorian chant and silk vestments. My favorite 00:44:41.980 --> 00:44:45.420 story about this, it's so arcane. I was in Alaska 00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:51.699 and I was supposedly doing music workshops, which 00:44:51.699 --> 00:44:54.940 is very difficult. I was listening to some of 00:44:54.940 --> 00:44:58.059 the music that People were playing at this evangelization 00:44:58.059 --> 00:45:00.699 team was at this little parish in a fishing village 00:45:00.699 --> 00:45:06.659 in Alaska. It was horrible music. It was like 00:45:06.659 --> 00:45:10.159 the worst of the lower 48 going up there. It 00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:13.559 was like junk food going in places of whole grains. 00:45:13.940 --> 00:45:17.179 It's a terrible stuff and people weren't really 00:45:17.179 --> 00:45:21.019 singing anyway. That evening, my friend who had 00:45:21.019 --> 00:45:22.500 brought me there took me to what's called the 00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:26.920 potlatch, which is this gathering. In it, they're 00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:30.579 telling these ancient stories. If I recall correctly, 00:45:31.019 --> 00:45:36.139 the old women and the younger men are doing these 00:45:36.139 --> 00:45:38.639 dances with their hands and the men are playing 00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:43.760 drums and they're singing. I said, why don't 00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:46.820 you do music like that at mass? That's really 00:45:46.820 --> 00:45:49.059 what the Second Vatican Council was calling for. 00:45:49.340 --> 00:45:53.000 What's your native music? They said very clearly. 00:45:53.550 --> 00:45:55.849 When the Jesuit missionaries come, they said, 00:45:55.889 --> 00:46:00.170 you have to stop doing that pagan music and replace 00:46:00.170 --> 00:46:05.789 it with this beautiful, chaste, sacred music 00:46:05.789 --> 00:46:11.750 gets replaced by this chintzy stuff because it 00:46:11.750 --> 00:46:16.710 wasn't Christian. That's not the best of our 00:46:16.710 --> 00:46:19.369 tradition. Thomas Aquinas, so we're going to 00:46:19.369 --> 00:46:20.909 go back a while, I'm going to pull out the heavy 00:46:20.909 --> 00:46:25.360 hitters, says, Grace builds on but does not destroy 00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:30.019 nature. Grace builds on but does not destroy. 00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:32.500 And John Paul II loved this phrase, by the way. 00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:35.380 He was a big believer in this. So whatever is 00:46:35.380 --> 00:46:38.619 there that's already beautiful and true and good, 00:46:38.699 --> 00:46:42.280 we just build on that. We bring it to Christ 00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:44.639 like the three wise men bring their gifts from 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:49.800 the East. We build on that. and bring it to Christ, 00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:52.639 and Christ brings that to whatever it is, to 00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:56.320 its fulfillment, instead of replacing it. So 00:46:56.320 --> 00:47:00.199 this is where even missionary work, but also 00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:04.360 dialogue changes. Missionary work doesn't have 00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:07.199 us now go in and replace everything with Western 00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:11.119 Christianity. It's like, what's beautiful here, 00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:14.059 and what does Christ have to say to this, and 00:47:14.059 --> 00:47:16.760 how does Christ bring it to fruition? But even 00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:19.360 in your religious dialogue, I walk in and I assume 00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:21.980 that I'm in dialogue. What do you have to teach 00:47:21.980 --> 00:47:26.679 me? Yes. What do I have to learn from a yogi 00:47:26.679 --> 00:47:29.599 on the mountains in Himalaya? I've learned so 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.760 much. What do I have to learn from my Buddhist 00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:36.039 monk and nun friends, my Buddhist practitioners? 00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:39.429 I have learned so much from them. What do I have 00:47:39.429 --> 00:47:42.449 to learn from Taoism? I've learned so much in 00:47:42.449 --> 00:47:44.730 Taoism. I never learned in St. Andrew's grade 00:47:44.730 --> 00:47:48.650 school in Romanoville, Illinois. Also, I just 00:47:48.650 --> 00:47:53.429 came back from a meeting with Shia Muslims. I 00:47:53.429 --> 00:47:58.349 was in Senegal. We were with Sufis from Senegal, 00:47:58.489 --> 00:48:00.909 but then these Shia Muslims were in from Iran. 00:48:01.769 --> 00:48:05.570 What do I have to learn from them, from their 00:48:05.570 --> 00:48:09.460 devotion and their dedication? They're a great 00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:12.260 intellectual tradition. I have a dear friend 00:48:12.260 --> 00:48:14.920 who's a woman rabbi. And when she's actually 00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:17.360 talking about scripture, I'm just like, gosh, 00:48:17.500 --> 00:48:22.059 she's got a depth of understanding of the book 00:48:22.059 --> 00:48:25.519 of Exodus that I may never have. What do I have 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:29.300 to learn here about my own tradition from somebody 00:48:29.300 --> 00:48:32.000 else? Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely. 00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:36.719 None of that has to be replaced. has been replaced. 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:42.039 Grace builds on nature. It builds on nature. 00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:50.199 For this second minute meditation, I wanted to 00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:53.579 read a passage from Father Cyprian's essay from 00:48:53.579 --> 00:48:56.300 Epiphanies of Nature and Grace. His essay is 00:48:56.300 --> 00:49:01.150 titled The Wealth of Nations. And in this passage, 00:49:01.369 --> 00:49:06.050 he talks about the wise men of the East bringing 00:49:06.050 --> 00:49:09.630 their gifts to Jesus. He writes this on page 00:49:09.630 --> 00:49:13.909 132, quote, Yes, the three wise men coming to 00:49:13.909 --> 00:49:17.210 visit this child, bearing their gifts, are symbols 00:49:17.210 --> 00:49:20.369 of the rest of the world, of spiritual seekers 00:49:20.369 --> 00:49:23.849 outside of the Hebrew covenant entering the promise, 00:49:24.090 --> 00:49:26.409 and of the revelation which first came to the 00:49:26.409 --> 00:49:29.309 Jewish people breaking out of its container. 00:49:29.929 --> 00:49:32.849 But the uniqueness of this event is not just 00:49:32.849 --> 00:49:36.070 in their visit. It's also in the fact that they 00:49:36.070 --> 00:49:45.099 had their gifts to bring too. And just so, when 00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:47.260 people come to Christ or come to the church, 00:49:47.500 --> 00:49:49.960 they don't have to leave everything of themselves 00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:53.179 behind, nor the treasures that they have found 00:49:53.179 --> 00:49:57.159 in far -flung lands. Who they are, what they 00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:00.460 have to offer is welcome, because, as St. Thomas 00:50:00.460 --> 00:50:04.820 Aquinas taught, grace does not destroy, but builds 00:50:04.820 --> 00:50:13.159 on nature. End quote. How often do we consider 00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:16.880 that the person we're with brings their own unique 00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:20.619 gifts to a conversation or shared experience? 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:25.159 Maybe we have different backgrounds or traditions 00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:27.880 or beliefs or political leanings or whatever 00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:31.260 it may be, but can we remember that they too, 00:50:31.420 --> 00:50:35.019 just by being there, just by being here, just 00:50:35.019 --> 00:50:38.480 by making the journey into dialogue, are bringing 00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:42.280 their own unique gifts into this mystery. Are 00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:45.239 we open enough to humbly receive these gifts, 00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:49.400 to read the word as it is revealed to us through 00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:54.940 the world itself? Now back to the conversation. 00:51:00.300 --> 00:51:03.920 It's a beautiful image of, and you wrote about 00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:10.500 it in one of your final essays, This nature that 00:51:10.500 --> 00:51:13.039 you're witnessing and the grace that is built 00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:15.980 upon it, you take it as a gift and you bring 00:51:15.980 --> 00:51:21.239 it to Christ like the wise men. Would you go 00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:23.079 a little bit deeper into that for me? Because 00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:28.139 I feel like that is a really powerful kind of 00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:32.480 practical movement to this of you receive it. 00:51:33.039 --> 00:51:37.519 You receive it almost as if it's your own. And 00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:40.440 you bring it, you carry it, you hold it. You 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:42.860 know, there's like a material element there. 00:51:42.900 --> 00:51:46.280 Like you hold this thing and you give it to Christ 00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:50.679 for fulfillment. I mean, that's, my goodness. 00:51:50.860 --> 00:51:55.099 I mean, if every religion did that, even if just 00:51:55.099 --> 00:51:58.579 Christians did that, I mean, think about the 00:51:58.579 --> 00:52:01.159 kind of healing that would bring to treasure 00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:05.929 something that much that you've received. Yeah. 00:52:06.050 --> 00:52:08.190 And it's a whole different mentality. Sorry to 00:52:08.190 --> 00:52:12.070 keep going back to Bad Bunny. But the whole idea 00:52:12.070 --> 00:52:15.170 was that there was this alternative show, which 00:52:15.170 --> 00:52:17.769 was going to be American, which I think was all 00:52:17.769 --> 00:52:21.869 white American anyway. Yeah. Every artist was 00:52:21.869 --> 00:52:25.170 white, I think. This is Little Box. This is what 00:52:25.170 --> 00:52:29.570 American music sounds like. Oh my gosh. Do you 00:52:29.570 --> 00:52:32.190 know almost all of American pop music comes out 00:52:32.190 --> 00:52:35.699 of the basin of the Mississippi River? It's all 00:52:35.699 --> 00:52:40.139 brought by this great combination of Afro -Island 00:52:40.139 --> 00:52:43.199 music and the music of this unfortunate marriage 00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:46.679 of Christianity with slavery that got brought 00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:50.460 over from Africa. What does it mean to be an 00:52:50.460 --> 00:52:54.840 American? At the end of his thing, Bad Bunny 00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:57.840 is naming off all the countries in the Americas. 00:52:58.059 --> 00:53:01.420 This is what America is. It's all these things. 00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:07.849 It's not just that. And I get the impression 00:53:07.849 --> 00:53:11.110 that a whole bunch of this movement is not about 00:53:11.110 --> 00:53:15.190 let's be American again. It's let's be that kind 00:53:15.190 --> 00:53:19.730 of American again, which is generally white Christian 00:53:19.730 --> 00:53:24.130 American, which isn't even the whole story of 00:53:24.130 --> 00:53:27.630 what America is. I'm the grandson of immigrants 00:53:27.630 --> 00:53:32.250 on both sides. And my experience with America 00:53:32.250 --> 00:53:36.559 is pretty wild and wide. But it's the same thing 00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:38.639 with Christianity in general. I keep talking 00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:43.000 about this idea of Western Christianity. That's 00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:47.539 even more narrow than that. It's kind of Gregorian 00:53:47.539 --> 00:53:52.039 Catholicism that gets exported, you know? So 00:53:52.039 --> 00:53:54.059 we're wearing sort of back vestments and we're 00:53:54.059 --> 00:53:55.820 seeing a Gregorian chant and we're doing all 00:53:55.820 --> 00:53:57.760 this, you know, in the jungle of South India. 00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:02.360 Is that absolutely necessary to see the gospel 00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:05.800 of Jesus Christ? Is that what it looks like? 00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:09.179 We're so monolithic about our approaches to everything. 00:54:09.380 --> 00:54:11.119 And maybe this is back to this question, never 00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:14.159 being satisfied with the expression. Even we're 00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:17.179 quite monolithic about what a vocation looks 00:54:17.179 --> 00:54:20.420 like, what it means to be a priest, what it means 00:54:20.420 --> 00:54:22.920 to be a monk, what it means to be a sister. We're 00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:26.880 pretty monolithic. We get set in our ways very, 00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:30.219 very, very easily. So bringing creativity and 00:54:30.219 --> 00:54:33.590 art even to the religious life. Are there other 00:54:33.590 --> 00:54:36.989 ways this whole thing can be incarnated? You 00:54:36.989 --> 00:54:38.909 know, just because they don't look familiar doesn't 00:54:38.909 --> 00:54:44.110 mean, just because they're, well, I'm trying 00:54:44.110 --> 00:54:45.969 to find the right words for it. Just because 00:54:45.969 --> 00:54:48.989 it's different doesn't mean it's wrong. Yes, 00:54:49.010 --> 00:54:53.130 yeah. In most things, there really is the sense 00:54:53.130 --> 00:54:56.710 that beauty, truth, and goodness is already there. 00:54:56.909 --> 00:55:01.789 It's already there. It's really on me. to open 00:55:01.789 --> 00:55:06.530 myself up enough to receive it, you know? And 00:55:06.530 --> 00:55:11.250 yeah, that Bad Bunny's, the conclusion of his 00:55:11.250 --> 00:55:14.349 halftime show where he's, everyone's walking 00:55:14.349 --> 00:55:17.030 toward the camera with all the different flags 00:55:17.030 --> 00:55:19.190 of the Americas. I mean, it was such a beautiful 00:55:19.190 --> 00:55:21.849 example of the kind of transcend and include. 00:55:22.070 --> 00:55:24.409 I think Richard Rohr and Ken Wilber have talked 00:55:24.409 --> 00:55:28.030 about like, yeah, being an American is not just 00:55:28.030 --> 00:55:32.769 one thing. It's. all these things and and i mean 00:55:32.769 --> 00:55:36.289 going back to the wise men kind of visual he's 00:55:36.289 --> 00:55:38.570 bringing you know they're all walking together 00:55:38.570 --> 00:55:42.389 um kind of and he has this football the football 00:55:42.389 --> 00:55:46.170 said uh did it say america were better together 00:55:46.170 --> 00:55:48.590 or something something along those lines yeah 00:55:48.590 --> 00:55:51.630 yeah i forgot i did see that you know yeah but 00:55:51.630 --> 00:55:55.090 but it was targeted toward union you know um 00:55:56.199 --> 00:55:59.099 And I need your help with this. This is my struggle. 00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:05.760 There's truth, beauty, and goodness. Because 00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:09.119 I'm like you. I was truly appalled that there's 00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:14.099 an alternative halftime show. Because you're 00:56:14.099 --> 00:56:18.199 automatically dismissing the beauty, truth, and 00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:21.940 goodness that's already there. You're just refusing 00:56:21.940 --> 00:56:27.380 not to see it. But then... healing i'm gonna 00:56:27.380 --> 00:56:30.599 try to work this out with you but it's like healing 00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:33.980 doesn't happen as well like there's also truth 00:56:33.980 --> 00:56:40.119 beauty and goodness for me to see in this people 00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:42.440 group that for some reason i don't understand 00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:47.559 feels disenfranchised or absolutely do you know 00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:49.539 what i'm saying like there's yeah and that's 00:56:49.539 --> 00:56:53.159 the complexity of dialogue where it's also kind 00:56:53.159 --> 00:56:58.760 of wrong wrong is too dualistic but limited it's 00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:03.920 also kind of gross for me to completely write 00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:07.019 off these people who find some sense of understanding 00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:11.960 or some sense of being known through this alternative 00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:14.539 halftime show do you know what i'm saying like 00:57:14.539 --> 00:57:18.550 i still don't like it But like dialogue has to 00:57:18.550 --> 00:57:21.329 happen there too for healing. Absolutely. Yeah. 00:57:21.429 --> 00:57:26.010 And I actually, I was recommended by one of the 00:57:26.010 --> 00:57:29.250 people who was editing this that I take this 00:57:29.250 --> 00:57:32.489 line out, but I left it in. It's like the day 00:57:32.489 --> 00:57:34.610 that Hillary Clinton stood up and said that all 00:57:34.610 --> 00:57:38.070 of Donald Trump's supporters were a basket of 00:57:38.070 --> 00:57:41.230 deplorables or something like that. I think that 00:57:41.230 --> 00:57:44.489 was a day she certainly lost the election. She 00:57:44.489 --> 00:57:48.210 just dismissed us, a whole truth. David Brooks 00:57:48.210 --> 00:57:52.530 speaks so beautifully about this, about liberals 00:57:52.530 --> 00:57:56.889 can be just as guilty of this as anybody, of 00:57:56.889 --> 00:57:58.750 really feeling like everybody's thinking like 00:57:58.750 --> 00:58:02.309 the elite class or is thinking like the educated 00:58:02.309 --> 00:58:06.059 liberals, and not everybody is. that people have 00:58:06.059 --> 00:58:08.659 a truth that they're trying to hold on to, that 00:58:08.659 --> 00:58:10.579 they should be worried if it gets threatened. 00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:12.820 There are some fundamental values that sometimes 00:58:12.820 --> 00:58:15.860 get washed out the way. So many of the progressive 00:58:15.860 --> 00:58:20.300 movements went so far, so quickly, and just as 00:58:20.300 --> 00:58:25.039 soon everybody was on board. I feel like I try 00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:27.880 to be as liberal in the best sense of the word 00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:30.519 as possible and probably sometimes a little more 00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:36.119 progressive than my peers. We went to really 00:58:36.119 --> 00:58:42.179 quickly to transgender rights and bathrooms and 00:58:42.179 --> 00:58:44.500 things like that. Suddenly I realized, are we 00:58:44.500 --> 00:58:46.519 really having this conversation? Do we really 00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:48.579 think this is going to be just a normal conversation 00:58:48.579 --> 00:58:54.260 in rural Georgia? Do you think we're just going 00:58:54.260 --> 00:58:56.300 to be able to say it's going to be this way now? 00:58:56.639 --> 00:59:00.539 There's a lot of steps in between. Yes. boys 00:59:00.539 --> 00:59:03.539 and girls to transgender bathrooms. There's a 00:59:03.539 --> 00:59:05.980 lot of steps to make to get from one way to the 00:59:05.980 --> 00:59:08.440 other. And maybe that's not even the best solution. 00:59:08.699 --> 00:59:10.539 I don't even say, and I know the best solution, 00:59:10.659 --> 00:59:13.139 but that was this kind of assumption. Everybody 00:59:13.139 --> 00:59:16.219 was on board and a lot of people were just not 00:59:16.219 --> 00:59:19.880 on board. Yeah. Yeah. And there's an arrogance 00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:24.440 to that too. Yes. And it creates, and this is 00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:26.860 the parallel, I think with the alternative halftime 00:59:26.860 --> 00:59:31.530 show. And then of, mostly let's be honest white 00:59:31.530 --> 00:59:35.530 progressives taking things a little too far the 00:59:35.530 --> 00:59:38.710 last half decade is that it does create both 00:59:38.710 --> 00:59:41.409 of those scenarios create an echo chamber um 00:59:41.409 --> 00:59:46.190 where i mean that's another reason a gap a huge 00:59:46.190 --> 00:59:50.210 gap you know where all of a sudden someone like 00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:54.280 elon musk or joe rogan don't fit in the democratic 00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:57.880 party anymore even though rogan endorsed bernie 00:59:57.880 --> 00:59:59.780 do you know what i'm saying like there's this 00:59:59.780 --> 01:00:04.139 yeah like there has to be room for diversity 01:00:04.139 --> 01:00:06.480 and i'm glad we're going this direction because 01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:10.000 A lot of our conversation has been focused on 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:13.219 interreligious dialogue, but as organized religion 01:00:13.219 --> 01:00:16.480 in America, my theory is that as organized religion 01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:19.460 in America has kind of begun to fade a little 01:00:19.460 --> 01:00:22.059 bit, people are still finding their religion 01:00:22.059 --> 01:00:26.460 a lot of times through politics. So it is very 01:00:26.460 --> 01:00:29.739 belonging. Yeah, that's a better way to put it. 01:00:29.780 --> 01:00:34.260 That's yes. Dialogue has to happen there in creating 01:00:34.260 --> 01:00:37.340 echo chambers, creating, you know, one party 01:00:37.340 --> 01:00:39.920 that you either believe, you know, you either 01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:42.559 believe these things or you're out. That doesn't 01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:44.900 work. And the alternative halftime show does 01:00:44.900 --> 01:00:47.519 not work either. It's just an echo chamber that 01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:52.599 lacks diversity. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been part 01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:55.719 of just several panel discussions over the past 01:00:55.719 --> 01:00:58.150 year, especially. And I keep saying this, and 01:00:58.150 --> 01:01:00.630 I'm not sure how well it goes over, but I'll 01:01:00.630 --> 01:01:06.269 say it again here, that we need to lean as far 01:01:06.269 --> 01:01:10.869 to the right as possible at this point. That's 01:01:10.869 --> 01:01:13.590 what I keep saying. It is far as possible to 01:01:13.590 --> 01:01:16.250 the right, because we've really lost some fundamentals 01:01:16.250 --> 01:01:21.820 that the right holds on to. Adam Kissinger's 01:01:21.820 --> 01:01:24.619 and the end of this Cheney's and the David Brooks. 01:01:24.900 --> 01:01:27.420 Maybe they're not even that far right, but we 01:01:27.420 --> 01:01:30.780 need to lean as far over there as we can. That's 01:01:30.780 --> 01:01:32.579 where we're going to find some common ground. 01:01:32.780 --> 01:01:35.440 We may have to compromise a little bit just for 01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:41.360 the sake of the greater good. That's dialogue 01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:49.639 and that's also dialogue. For this third and 01:01:49.639 --> 01:01:52.599 final minute meditation, I wanted to read another 01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:55.559 passage from Father Cyprian's essay, The Wealth 01:01:55.559 --> 01:01:59.000 of Nations, in his book, Epiphanies of Nature 01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:02.750 and Grace. I think this passage, though it's 01:02:02.750 --> 01:02:04.909 a little bit edgy, you mentioned in the conversation 01:02:04.909 --> 01:02:08.650 that this was discussed being taken out of the 01:02:08.650 --> 01:02:12.010 book. I'm glad it was left in. But I think it's 01:02:12.010 --> 01:02:15.710 so important because it really breaks open the 01:02:15.710 --> 01:02:19.510 political climate that we are in, and it charts 01:02:19.510 --> 01:02:23.610 a path forward toward healing. So he writes this 01:02:23.610 --> 01:02:28.190 on page 138. When running for president against 01:02:28.190 --> 01:02:31.079 Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton said at one point 01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:33.300 that half of Trump's supporters were, quote, 01:02:33.400 --> 01:02:37.059 a basket of deplorables because they were, quote, 01:02:37.179 --> 01:02:42.199 racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic. 01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:47.000 In other words, barbarians. That might have been 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:49.880 the moment she lost the election because that's 01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:53.400 the moment she left out the Gentiles and barbarians. 01:02:53.780 --> 01:02:56.699 To her, they were the Gentiles and barbarians, 01:02:56.699 --> 01:03:00.690 but not to Jesus. He invites them, too, to be 01:03:00.690 --> 01:03:04.429 co -heirs of the reign of God. Or maybe it's 01:03:04.429 --> 01:03:06.789 those whom we don't think pass the litmus test 01:03:06.789 --> 01:03:10.550 of what we understand orthodoxy to be, or whatever 01:03:10.550 --> 01:03:13.050 our own version of theological correctness or 01:03:13.050 --> 01:03:16.309 traditional values is, and we dismiss them out 01:03:16.309 --> 01:03:19.250 of hand as if they had nothing to offer us and 01:03:19.250 --> 01:03:22.289 we had nothing to talk about with them. We do 01:03:22.289 --> 01:03:27.269 so at our own peril. It's so strong. We do so 01:03:27.269 --> 01:03:30.570 at our own peril because wherever we exclude 01:03:30.570 --> 01:03:33.710 anyone else from the church, from the table, 01:03:33.829 --> 01:03:37.510 from our embrace, we have actually excluded ourselves 01:03:37.510 --> 01:03:46.599 from the reign of God. I think that I really 01:03:46.599 --> 01:03:49.199 think that a wonderful example, and of course, 01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:51.460 we kept going back to this throughout the conversation, 01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:55.619 but a wonderful example of this healing, integrative 01:03:55.619 --> 01:03:59.039 movement was Bad Bunny's halftime performance. 01:03:59.780 --> 01:04:03.260 He could have gone in all kinds of different 01:04:03.260 --> 01:04:06.400 directions with his performance, especially when 01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:07.940 it was announced that there was going to be this 01:04:07.940 --> 01:04:12.360 alternative halftime show. He would have had 01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:15.519 every right to punch back. He could have belittled 01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:18.960 those who were coming after him. He could have 01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:22.659 slipped into the same exclusive game that creates 01:04:22.659 --> 01:04:25.400 echo chambers and divides rather than uniting. 01:04:25.719 --> 01:04:29.000 But instead, he did one of the most American 01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:33.280 things he could have possibly done. E Pluribus 01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:37.840 Unum, out of many, won. the very ideal of the 01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:41.360 United States of America. And it's only through, 01:04:41.420 --> 01:04:45.039 and his whole halftime performance echoed this, 01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:48.559 that it's only through the passage of diversity 01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:52.579 that we awaken to our own inerrant union and 01:04:52.579 --> 01:04:55.679 spiritual connection to God and to one another. 01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:59.780 And that's the American way. It was one of the 01:04:59.780 --> 01:05:02.699 most American halftime shows you could possibly 01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:06.420 draw up. His message was unitive, inclusive, 01:05:06.780 --> 01:05:12.179 diverse, contagiously joyful, celebratory. And 01:05:12.179 --> 01:05:15.960 he told a story. And he invited everyone to the 01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:21.659 dance floor of that story. Now back to the conversation. 01:05:28.220 --> 01:05:31.519 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What would you, for someone 01:05:31.519 --> 01:05:33.920 listening, and I know you, I know we're kind 01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:36.440 of nearing the hour here and maybe this will 01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:39.219 be a good place for us to land, but for someone 01:05:39.219 --> 01:05:42.699 listening, either who's interested in what you've 01:05:42.699 --> 01:05:46.260 said about interreligious dialogue or interested 01:05:46.260 --> 01:05:49.179 in what we've just been talking about with this 01:05:49.179 --> 01:05:53.559 kind of dialogue that has to happen in our own 01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:57.949 country when it comes to politics. Not to put 01:05:57.949 --> 01:06:00.449 you on the spot, but what would you recommend? 01:06:01.050 --> 01:06:03.469 Like, what would some advice be? As someone who 01:06:03.469 --> 01:06:05.730 works in this space, your vocation is in this 01:06:05.730 --> 01:06:10.929 space of dialogue. What are some next steps that 01:06:10.929 --> 01:06:13.909 could lead us toward healing as a country, but 01:06:13.909 --> 01:06:19.590 then also on a religious level as well? Well, 01:06:19.630 --> 01:06:23.289 we talked about this idea of consciousness earlier 01:06:23.289 --> 01:06:29.320 and the effect of consciousness. And this may 01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:33.099 sound really far out for some people, but I would 01:06:33.099 --> 01:06:35.920 say it in any crowd, in any workers, I believe 01:06:35.920 --> 01:06:44.059 it so firmly. We have changed God's perfect plan 01:06:44.059 --> 01:06:50.119 of evolution by our conscious choices or unconscious 01:06:50.119 --> 01:06:53.820 choices. We've already changed God's perfect 01:06:53.820 --> 01:07:00.739 plan in wiping out species and changing biosystems. 01:07:01.960 --> 01:07:06.940 I really believe the next step forward in evolution 01:07:06.940 --> 01:07:14.260 is the evolution of our consciousness. That's 01:07:14.260 --> 01:07:22.039 what's our challenge right now. As I mentioned, 01:07:22.179 --> 01:07:24.420 I don't know if I mentioned on this podcast that 01:07:24.420 --> 01:07:26.559 we were talking earlier, I was at this conference 01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:30.860 at the United Nations in Geneva in December as 01:07:30.860 --> 01:07:34.199 part of a panel of religious leaders. They're 01:07:34.199 --> 01:07:37.179 actually doing a program on mindfulness and public 01:07:37.179 --> 01:07:40.300 policy, mindfulness and diplomacy, teaching meditation 01:07:40.300 --> 01:07:44.679 practices to diplomats. And my argument about 01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:49.719 this, the benefit of it was, This line from Albert 01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:55.039 Einstein from 1947, I think it was. I'll say 01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:57.320 it this way. It's not an exact quote. The problems 01:07:57.320 --> 01:08:01.840 we face today are not going to be solved by the 01:08:01.840 --> 01:08:04.099 same consciousness that created those problems. 01:08:06.079 --> 01:08:14.110 We need a new consciousness. And that means being 01:08:14.110 --> 01:08:17.130 ready to let go of all of our old categories 01:08:17.130 --> 01:08:22.449 and really look and listen and go back to the 01:08:22.449 --> 01:08:28.390 fundaments of reality. Along with that, my argument, 01:08:28.449 --> 01:08:32.729 again, this was at the UN as part of this panel 01:08:32.729 --> 01:08:36.850 on mindfulness, I believe that it's this interior 01:08:36.850 --> 01:08:40.470 journey of contemplative prayer that is the surest 01:08:40.470 --> 01:08:43.430 engine. of the evolution of our consciousness 01:08:43.430 --> 01:08:48.010 if we were to really dig and find the the fundament 01:08:48.010 --> 01:08:51.229 of our own consciousness it's going to push us 01:08:51.229 --> 01:08:54.029 forward it's a great lesson i learned from studying 01:08:54.029 --> 01:09:00.300 renaissance humanism um in the periods of They 01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:03.239 call it ad fontes. What's the word? In French, 01:09:03.340 --> 01:09:05.699 it's called ressourcement. It was part of the 01:09:05.699 --> 01:09:09.119 whole movement of neural theology in the 20th 01:09:09.119 --> 01:09:11.239 century that led to the Second Vatican Council. 01:09:11.560 --> 01:09:14.220 But there's been different periods of Renaissance 01:09:14.220 --> 01:09:17.060 humanism in the 13th, 14th century, for instance. 01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:20.859 Ad fontes means go back to the sources, go back 01:09:20.859 --> 01:09:23.989 to the sources, go back to the sources. But the 01:09:23.989 --> 01:09:26.829 idea of going back to the sources, like the days 01:09:26.829 --> 01:09:30.270 of Erasmus and the great Renaissance philosophers, 01:09:30.289 --> 01:09:35.470 was not for a museum. To go back to the sources 01:09:35.470 --> 01:09:40.909 so that we could be relevant to the future. What 01:09:40.909 --> 01:09:43.689 did we leave? What have we left behind? What 01:09:43.689 --> 01:09:45.350 do we need to get rid of that got in the way 01:09:45.350 --> 01:09:48.390 of what we left behind so we can be relevant 01:09:48.390 --> 01:09:50.979 for the future? And that's what the Second Vatican 01:09:50.979 --> 01:09:54.359 Council was all about. Even in the liturgy, what 01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:57.439 has crept in that's actually covering up some 01:09:57.439 --> 01:10:00.880 of the fundamentals? How can we uncover those 01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:02.819 fundamentals so that we can be relevant to the 01:10:02.819 --> 01:10:06.020 future? And I feel like that is what the job 01:10:06.020 --> 01:10:08.420 of contemplative prayer is. It's always an ad 01:10:08.420 --> 01:10:11.060 fontes. It's always a resource mode. Go back, 01:10:11.119 --> 01:10:14.100 the native people would say this too, go back 01:10:14.100 --> 01:10:17.039 to the source. thunder heart go back to the source 01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:20.079 go back to the source so that we can move forward 01:10:20.079 --> 01:10:23.659 it's just this beautiful movement in and out 01:10:23.659 --> 01:10:27.199 in and out go back to the source so we so we 01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:30.880 can so we can move forward again and then it 01:10:30.880 --> 01:10:34.260 takes a that takes discipline it also takes daring 01:10:34.260 --> 01:10:37.939 and being ready for our mind to be changed and 01:10:37.939 --> 01:10:40.739 our consciousness to be changed and no politician 01:10:43.180 --> 01:10:48.680 on the left or the right, has got the best solutions 01:10:48.680 --> 01:10:54.359 unless they're doing this work. That's what we're 01:10:54.359 --> 01:10:56.699 relying on the spiritual leaders to do in these 01:10:56.699 --> 01:11:02.619 days, is to call us back to the sources. Well, 01:11:02.739 --> 01:11:05.560 thank you for being one of those people, Father 01:11:05.560 --> 01:11:09.119 Cyprian. Calling us back to the sources, this 01:11:09.119 --> 01:11:12.819 universal wisdom, this, I mean, this has been 01:11:12.819 --> 01:11:15.939 an amazing conversation. Anything else you'd 01:11:15.939 --> 01:11:22.619 like to hit on? I heard this, I read this, it 01:11:22.619 --> 01:11:24.539 might have been just this morning or yesterday 01:11:24.539 --> 01:11:28.199 in this book on Taoists, this image that really 01:11:28.199 --> 01:11:33.000 struck me, that for this one particular Taoist 01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:39.750 teacher, spirituality, is not so much the work 01:11:39.750 --> 01:11:43.829 of a potter, it's more the work of a stonecutter. 01:11:45.590 --> 01:11:48.369 At some point, it's not just about being shaped, 01:11:48.550 --> 01:11:50.710 it's about chipping off all the stuff that we're 01:11:50.710 --> 01:11:56.409 not. I was thinking of Michelangelo's The Four 01:11:56.409 --> 01:12:02.189 Captives that are at the entrance of the, what's 01:12:02.189 --> 01:12:04.050 the name of the museum in Florence that's then 01:12:04.050 --> 01:12:06.600 at the entrance. And he hadn't quite finished 01:12:06.600 --> 01:12:08.720 it. You could see he's still chipping away, and 01:12:08.720 --> 01:12:11.979 these creatures are inside the rock already. 01:12:12.579 --> 01:12:14.979 So much of our life is actually not about what 01:12:14.979 --> 01:12:17.800 we put on. It's about what we take off, what 01:12:17.800 --> 01:12:19.899 we get rid of, so we can get—that's going back 01:12:19.899 --> 01:12:22.720 to the sources, too, so we can be our real selves, 01:12:22.779 --> 01:12:28.270 hidden with Christ and God. Beautiful, my friend. 01:12:28.350 --> 01:12:31.310 I cannot think of a better way to conclude. So 01:12:31.310 --> 01:12:34.750 yeah, I cannot recommend your book enough to 01:12:34.750 --> 01:12:38.569 our listeners. Thank you so much. It's a really 01:12:38.569 --> 01:12:41.109 beautiful book. And thank you. Thank you for 01:12:41.109 --> 01:12:43.449 teaching us about dialogue and what this looks 01:12:43.449 --> 01:12:45.210 like. I think it's such an important conversation 01:12:45.210 --> 01:12:48.569 today. So thanks for your time. God bless you. 01:12:54.279 --> 01:12:57.220 Once again, that was Father Cyprian Concilio. 01:12:57.380 --> 01:13:01.520 His book, here it is again, Epiphanies of Nature 01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:05.739 and Grace, is available on Orbis Books' website. 01:13:06.060 --> 01:13:09.279 It's on Amazon as well or wherever books are 01:13:09.279 --> 01:13:12.319 sold. I have linked to more of Father Cyprian's 01:13:12.319 --> 01:13:15.180 incredible work as well as other helpful resources 01:13:15.180 --> 01:13:18.680 all around interreligious, interfaith dialogue. 01:13:19.470 --> 01:13:21.409 related to our conversation. I've linked to all 01:13:21.409 --> 01:13:23.649 of that stuff in the show notes. And you can 01:13:23.649 --> 01:13:25.710 get to the show notes, by the way, in just the 01:13:25.710 --> 01:13:28.529 episode description on whatever platform you're 01:13:28.529 --> 01:13:31.569 listening to this podcast. I encourage you as 01:13:31.569 --> 01:13:34.369 well to check out Father Cyprian's music. Just 01:13:34.369 --> 01:13:38.149 search Cyprian Concilio on Spotify or wherever 01:13:38.149 --> 01:13:42.029 you stream your music. So huge thanks to Father 01:13:42.029 --> 01:13:45.109 Cyprian for sharing with us his time and contemplative 01:13:45.109 --> 01:13:48.149 wisdom, as well as his giftedness as a musician, 01:13:48.229 --> 01:13:51.729 which... enrich this podcast from the very beginning. 01:13:51.970 --> 01:13:54.909 Thank you for listening to Franciscan Spirit. 01:13:55.170 --> 01:13:59.210 This is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and 01:13:59.210 --> 01:13:59.850 all good.