welcome to franciscan spirit i'm stephen copeland
what does it mean to live a life of dialogue
not just talking but deeply listening to the
world to other traditions and even to maybe unexpected
voices like say bad bunny at a super bowl halftime
performance in this rich conversation i sit down
with my dear friend father cyprian concilio he
is a camaldolese benedictine monk musician and
his current role is as secretary general of monastic
inter -religious dialogue in rome In this conversation,
we draw many themes from his new book. His new
book is, I have it right here, Epiphanies of
Nature and Grace, 12 Meditations from a Life
in Dialogue is the subtitle. And we talk about
a number of things. We talk about his chance
encounter with Bede Griffiths decades ago, which
sparked a lifelong journey into universal wisdom
and interreligious encounter. We talk about how
real dialogue isn't two monologues crossing,
but it's a humble openness to receive truth,
beauty, and goodness wherever they appear. We
talk about a theology of the word, the logos.
that bridges Christianity with other traditions
and how we can see manifestations of the divine
in nature, culture, consciousness, and even the
evolving spectrum of the human psyche. We talk
about how grace builds upon but never destroys
nature, which challenges rigid monocultures in
religion, politics, and identity. And lastly,
everything we discuss goes back to this urgent
call for each of us to today i think and it's
this evolve it's how do we evolve our consciousness
through contemplative practice in order to heal
divisions embrace diversity and return to the
sources so we can all move forward together.
Everyone who has listened to this podcast before
is at least a little familiar with Father Cyprian
because you hear his music at the end and beginning
of every episode. I hope you enjoy this conversation
as much as I did. So without further ado, here
is Father Cyprian Concilio. Enjoy. Father Cyprian,
welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Good to be
with you. Yeah, thanks for taking the time. To
begin, can you talk about, so you're a Commodities
monk. Can you explain to listeners the order
that you belong to and then what your current
role is right now in Rome? Sure. Commodities
is actually the name of the congregation. The
order is Benedictine. I'm a Benedictine monk.
But the Benedictine, it's called the Benedictine
Confederation, is broken up into different congregations,
which are like little families. And my congregation
is actually one of, I think it's the oldest one
that still exists. We were started as a reform
back in the 11th century. Our founder died in
1027, mostly based in Italy, but we're also in
India, Africa, Brazil. America, and now we have
a small group in China and Germany. We're less
than 100 monks, but we're all over the place.
And currently, even though I'm a monk of a monastery
in Big Sur, California, I've been asked by the
Greater Benedictine Confederation to head up
an organization called Monastic Interreligious
Dialogue. So I'm based in Rome now. Our congregation
is a house here about a mile from where I'm at
right now. I live with our monks, but my boss
is here where I'm at right now, which is called
San Anselmo. It's the Curia of the Benedictine
Order and also the Benedictine University for
the world. So I come up here and work and answer
to my boss. But being here in Rome is easier
because this job takes me all over the world.
It's easier to travel from here. We work with
the Vatican's Office for Interreligious Dialogue.
And of course, as I said, my boss is here too.
So that's where I'm at right now. One of my favorite
things about your new book, Epiphanies of Nature
and Grace, is... the interfaith interreligious
component that really shows up in every single
essay. I mean, it's a really beautiful book.
And your subtitle, your subtitle is 12 meditations
from a life in dialogue. So maybe that'll be
a good jumping off point for us. What is dialogue?
What did you mean by a life in dialogue? Easy
question. Softball question. Yeah, softball question.
Well, I think I even mentioned it somewhere in
one of the essays. My interest in interreligious
dialogue was a branch of just something in my
personality already, of loving to be in dialogue
with the world. When I reflect back on it, especially
in my 20s, I was a professional musician for
a good decade before I joined the monastery.
I was always interested in music that was a little
bit outside of the ordinary. I can remember sitting
in my apartment listening to Johnny Clegg and
Savooka, for instance, which was music from Africa.
Bringing in new sounds, you and I have had this
conversation before about what it's like to be
a creative person. For me to be a creative person
means that you're never satisfied. We're always
looking for something new, always looking for
a new way to say it, a new way to express it.
I want to say I didn't have great commercial
success ever as a musical artist. Part of that
reason is because I could never settle in on
a style. I tried so many different things. I
did gospel music. I had a band that was a solo
singer. I was studying composition. Everything
seemed so wonderful. I wanted to try a little
bit of it all until I found my own voice much
later on that. But I want to say my life has
been in dialogue. I've just really been fascinated
by learning from different aspects of the world.
So when this idea came up that I got from this
great man, Bede Griffiths, who's an English Benedictine
monk who spent the second part of his life in
India, this idea there being something called,
he called it universal wisdom, meaning that all
these great spiritual traditions all have something
we can learn from and share with. But also we
can learn from these things. I'm like, oh, that
makes total sense to me. That makes absolute
sense. There's things about reality in general
that perhaps a Buddhist tradition from China
would understand that I just haven't seen yet
in my own background from white middle -class
America, for instance, and I can learn from that
and expand my own horizons. Yeah, the 12th meditation
will mean a life in dialogue. I still am listening
to the world. I watched. the entire thing of
Bad Bunny last night, for instance. I saw it
here on video because we're nine hours ahead
of that. I'm not a big fan of that music. I think
he's extraordinarily talented. Even me as a supposedly
contemplative monk, I learned something from
Bad Bunny. I like his dialogue, but I'm learning
something from him as well. I love knowing what's
going on in contemporary culture, be it here
in Italy or be it in America or be it in Kazakhstan,
for instance. There are aspects of life that
I'm still learning from other people. I guess
in that way, I'm never satisfied. Yeah, in that...
Tell me if I'm tracking here, but that's really
important in dialogue, correct? Like you described
it as listening to the world. Do you have anything
to add there? I mean, I think it's a really beautiful
and important posture today because... A lot
of people, it seems, don't approach, even Bad
Bunny, with that kind of openness, that there
is something for me to receive here, even as
an English -speaking person. I didn't know what
he was saying either, but oh my gosh, it was
beautiful, and the choreography, and the videography,
and just the placement of where he was, and the
symbols, and obviously a very talented musician
too, but listening to the world. Can you go deeper
into that for me? Well, even the more fundamental,
I'm not sure we always understand what dialogue
even is. I think this line is almost directly
from Raimundo Panicar, who was another great
theologian, mainly of last century, a Spanish
Indian, who was one of the great world's experts
on any religious dialogue. The dialogue is not
a crossing of two monologues, he would say. It's
not like I'm speaking and now you're speaking.
One of the things I heard from the people who
were working at the Synod, the Synod of Bishops,
and the Synod that Pope Francis ran with lay
people a few times already, when you're done
talking, and you start listening, don't take
your listening time to prepare what you're going
to say next. Take your listening time to listen.
And then there'll be a moment where you reflect
back what you just heard to make sure you really
were listening. Otherwise, it's really a crossing
of two monologues. And I was at, we do some work
with the Dicastery for Interreligious Dialogue
at the Vatican. I was there last week. And one
of the things that got brought up in this new
document they're working on, the dialogue and
evangelization go together, but they're actually
two different things. We actually don't go into
dialogue to convert people. I mean, the Church
even says that in her official teaching about
it, which is very interesting. You've got to
be very careful about that. You go into dialogue
because you're going to learn something. You
feel like you have something to receive, not
just something to give. I'm not going in with
an ulterior motive to convert you. I'm going
in to say, what do I have to learn from this
conversation? And I put it in three points quite
often with this, so I'm very careful. One is
that we always have the mandate from Jesus himself
to spread the good news. Now, how we do that
is a whole different way. It doesn't have to
always be done with words. We always have the
mandate to spread the good news. Secondly, second
point is dialogue is not about evangelization.
Dialogue is not about converting anybody. My
third point is, but dialogue may be the most
beautiful face of the church. It may be actually
the best way to convert somebody. Maybe not to
convert them to Catholicism, but to show them
that we're actually pretty noble souls ourselves.
You come in with humility and openness and gentleness
and kindness. When I talk about apologists and
people talking about being apologists and they're
arguing rationally for the truth and the doctrines
of our faith, I think of myself as an apologist
too. But an apologist in the sense that I'm often
in places where people don't take Christianity
seriously at all. They just dismiss Catholicism
completely away and think it's so irrelevant.
I'm an apologist in the sense that I just want
to show you we actually have something to offer.
That's all. If I could just get that far and
that here I am, a white American Christian, and
I'm not being a jerk. I mean, the best apology
you can offer right now, you know, in some places
in Europe. For sure. Really, I'm not kidding
at all. That may be the best thing you can be
right now in some places in Europe. A white Christian
from America who's not a jerk. Yes. Well, and
it goes back to what you said. I don't know if
you're going to want to edit that out in the
final version. Hey, I mean, it sounds accurate
to me. Leave it in. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but there's
a... There's a gift today to sitting and listening.
I feel like that's something that not a lot of
people do, and that itself almost becomes its
own... This word would need deconstructed, too,
but there is a sense of evangelization in that
because you're not converting, but you're...
My goodness, man. And I felt this with you the
first time we met in Rome, where the gift you
were giving me of listening and daring to understand
me and my story. And then you and I were... we
were kind of giving each other the green light
to keep playing, you know, then we're into Martin,
then we're into, you know, Franciscan theology,
then we're into Benedictine, that tradition that
is really formed you. And, you know, I mean,
like it, you don't know where it's going in dial
in like the best dialogue. It seems you don't
really know where it's going, but it's animated
by receiving what the other is saying. And also
a new land opens up. You know, there was a beautiful
description of relationship. Is her name Maria
Popov? The one who does the... Oh, Maria Popova,
the... That's it, yeah. Yeah, she used to do
brain pickings. Yeah, it's just a new name now.
Yeah, the marginal... Marginalia? Marginalia,
yeah. This is a really good description of the
Trinity, actually, that there's two and a third
is born from the two. It's the third thing that's
not one and not the other. That's a great description
of procreative love anyway. It's a great description
of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit. But that's
a great description of dialogue. I mean, what
happens when there's real dialogue is a third
thing, like a new land is formed in a sense.
We're inside that new relationship. For this
first -minute meditation, I wanted to spend some
time with what Father Ciprian shared. He said,
dialogue is not a crossing of two monologues.
This may lead us to sit with a number of questions
for this first meditation. The first being, how
do we fight against this exactly? Another, how
do we keep our egos in check in real time? These
egos that long to be right or prove a point.
And how do we fight against formulating a response
in our heads while someone else is talking? And
lastly... How do we play, how do each of us play
our own part in entering into the mystery of
dialogue so that a new land might begin to form
for us to explore, as Father Cyprian said? And
of course, in the exploration of this new land,
we learn and we grow. Our consciousness evolves.
And I wanted to share with you these words from
Father Cyprian's essay, A Body You Have Prepared
for Me, which is included in his new book, Epiphanies
of Nature and Grace. And I wanted to share them
with you because I think they invite us into,
they invite an inner posture of silence and stillness
that makes our souls more receptive. And I think
that receptivity is such an important spiritual
posture to cultivate when it comes to dialogue
because it's difficult to see truth and goodness
and beauty in the other when we're not even open
to receiving it. So Father Cyprian writes, quote,
therefore silence ought to be the fundamental
condition of our heart, maybe even of our bodies.
We empty ourselves and sit waiting. It is for
this that a body has been prepared for us so
that the word would make a home in our heart
so that our whole being. body, soul, and spirit
would become a receptivity and the word would
take flesh and become incarnate in us too. And
we once again and continually give birth to Christ
in the world. Now back to the conversation. That's
a beautiful way to put it. Yeah, because it really
does. We've all felt that when you're in the
flow, in conversation, or just the presence of
someone. It really does feel like you're kind
of discovering a new land together. And you don't
have a map for that land. But the listening and
receiving and the comfort of that is enough of
a map. because you know it's safe you know it's
like okay let's keep going let's keep traversing
this landscape yeah because you've got company
too yes you're not alone yeah yeah yeah you mentioned
um you mentioned bead griffiths and you have
he shows up again and again throughout your book
and there there was one passage where you it
was really great you said something You said
something like, I realized that I wanted what
he had. Can you go a little bit deeper into that
for me and what it was about him that was so
appealing to you and so life -giving to you on
some level? I go back to that moment so often
and actually talk about it so often because it's
a great life lesson. I was not even officially
part of the monastic community yet. I was just
on a period that they call the observership.
a two -month observership and b griffith showed
up i i got there in mid -august i think he showed
up like in mid -september with an entourage of
people with him um can you give listeners a understanding
of who bead was first yeah um early on he was
a very brilliant student of c .s lewis at oxford
Matter of fact, he and C .S. Lewis both converted
to Christianity at the same time, stayed great
friends, and C .S. Lewis actually dedicated his
first autobiography, Surprised by Joy, to Bede.
Not know that. Wow. And then Bede joined the
monastery in the Cotswolds in central England,
British Abbey, was there for some, I want to
say, 20 years or so, and had been introduced
to Asian thought by a first -generation student
of Carl Jung, by someone who was a student of
Carl Jung, and got an offer to go to India in
1955. Went to India. to try to start a new Benedictine
community there. It didn't go, but then he met
a Trappist monk, and the two of them started
an ashram that's still going on called Puru Samala
in Kerala in southwest India. and after 10 years
then he was asked to take over another ashram
south east india called shanti or sachitananda
ashram that had been founded by two frenchmen
one of them had died and the other one had become
kind of a wandering monk these great early experiments
in dialogue by not just enculturation but really
incarnating catholic religious life in a new
way you know and it's using the genius of of
of native genius of india in that particular
way along the way then deed started writing he
wrote a whole series of books basically the way
i would describe it is re -articulating the christian
kerygma from a different point of view because
he could be articulated from the point of view
of asia himself being very well steeped in classic
western philosophy and literature Absolutely.
He studied classics under C .S. Lewis. But then
to be able to re -articulate, not using necessarily
Western philosophical or Western mythological
terms, it had quite a great effect on me as I
started reading his works. Anyway, he died only
seven months after I met him there. He went back
to India and consequently dies. He was on his
last trip. away from India. He was on his way
back to India. Came for a couple of days. And
I don't remember if it was before or after he
talked, but we have meditation every night for
half an hour in this beautiful rotunda of the
chapel in New Kamadli and Big Sur, which you've
been to and you've seen with the Blessed Sacrament
on the altar. And where I would sat and sat for
30 years was just opposite of where Father Beach
sat on a bench. And I remember, I know this phrase,
it's a phrase that comes from the 12 -step program,
if you want what we have and are willing to go
to any length to get it. I remember gazing both
at the Blessed Sacrament on the altar and at
Father Bede on the other side. And the first
time I ever said those words, meaning out loud,
I want what he has. Whatever that is, I want
that. There was something about him, so dignified,
first of all. When he spoke, it was with this
authority that came from not just education,
but from deep experience, deep spiritual experience
that conveyed both authority and humility at
the same time. Even when he was challenging the
church, it came from a place of really belonging
in the church as well. This Saturday, part of
his trip there, and I wish I could remember all
the days, but maybe he was there six days and
right in the blues this weekend. He gave a talk
at what we call chapter meeting and invited all
the retreatants that were there also to come
in and listen to him. And I keep telling people,
I walked in here and I walked out here to turn
my life around. The two topics especially we
talked about, I thought, That's the language
I've been looking for all of my life and I didn't
even know I was looking for it. My first two
books are actually on those same two topics.
Now, 33 going on 34 years later, I'm still living
off of that inspiration. That's the effect we
can have on people. A brief encounter like that
can change our entire life and change the direction
of our life. It's really cool. I don't tell the
story very often. took this new job on monastic
inter -religious dialogue, and really that roots
are back on that meeting Father Bede, really,
how I got involved in this. In mid -September,
I want to say it was like the 15th of September
of 2024, here in Rome at the big Congress of
Abbots and Priors, I was formally introduced.
So I felt like that was the day I really officially
started the job. And the next day, I got on a
plane and I was flying to Warsaw and I was to
be giving a weekend retreat on the life and teaching
of B. Griffiths to Benedictine Oblates and members
of the World Community for Christian Meditation.
I was like halfway there on the plane, I suddenly
realized. the first official thing I'm doing
is giving a retreat on the teachings of Father
Pete Griffiths. I hadn't even thought of that
until that moment. And yeah, tears welled up
in my eyes and I just washed in consolation thinking,
wow, I'm in the absolute right place. I'm in
the absolute right place. Oh, that is awesome.
Yeah, it's almost like a full circle moment,
but at the same time, just beginning. That's
your first kind of, gig in this new role and
it has to do with this person who you just looked
up to so much um to go back to that scene where
you're where you're receiving what he says and
you know you're you're thinking like man i want
what he has what was it about what he was articulating
um that really moved you on a deep level? The
first thing we've kind of already mentioned,
this idea that being a universal wisdom or a
perennial philosophy, that we actually have things
to learn from other traditions. Man, I could
just go on and on about that for hours, but that
was the first thing I would call that universal
wisdom. We could learn from other traditions,
even to say that perhaps another tradition has
articulated something. in a way that would never
occur to us, that we haven't even uncovered.
Not that it doesn't, the technical word would
be subsist. Not that it doesn't subsist in Christianity
and Catholicism, but even if it subsists, that
doesn't mean we've actually understood it or
uncovered it. Another tradition might be able
to help us find something in our own tradition
and we didn't even know it was there. That's
the first thing, universal wisdom, and that's
that opening up that idea of dialogue. That got
me launched into into studying other traditions,
we had a relationship with a Buddhist monastery
at the time in my community. And when I told
the prior at the time, the head of the community
that I was really interested in this, he said
right away, why don't you study Buddhism then?
Because we have such a good relationship with
this, it's called Tassajara Zen Mountain Center.
And so I put myself through kind of a self...
self -study on the history of Buddhism as I was
studying Western mysticism and the history of
monasticism and liturgy. It was very cool. And
reading all of Father Bede's writings. So that
got me started on that path. So the first thing
was the universal wisdom. And the second thing
was, and this may seem so subtle, but to this
day, I'm still on this topic. Bede had this notion,
he said it was It consumed all of his thinking
in his late years of an anthropology of the human
person, not just his body and soul, but his body,
soul, and spirit. Think of that third element.
And there was a bridge there to other traditions
who have this holistic view of spirituality.
Now, all three of those elements have a very
special meaning to them. First of all, the idea
of the body, which is not just the body, it's
actually materiality in general. We don't have
a real good track record of this in Christianity,
which is so surprising because we're the ones
who believe that the Word was made flesh and
dwelt among us and that Jesus rose from the dead
with his body and ascended to the right hand
of the Father in glory. We don't have a good
track record with this. We get told what not
to do with our bodies. We rarely get told what
to do with our bodies. Like the body is a positive
thing in the spiritual life. And that now, again,
33, 34 years later, I'm still digging into that,
trying to find an integral spirituality to respect
both the body and a way to realize that Pope
Francis did a great job on this with Laudato
Si, especially. that the earth itself, that material
reality is soaked with divinity, Gerald Manley
Hopkins would say. And then the idea of, I'll
skip to the other end, the spirit at that point
means that which is actually beyond all phenomena,
beyond all words and images in the realm of total
mystery, but it's also a fathomless, not just
a fathomless depth of God, it's a fathomless
depth of us. It's a mysterious depth of us where
we are in some way already in union with God.
It's a place where we're already, that we don't
have to make that happen. We just have to uncover
and realize that that's there if for no other
reason than the fact that St. Paul says the love
of God is poured into our hearts by the Spirit
living in us. So there's this... part of us that's
beyond all words and images and beyond all understanding
that's a reunion with god and that's the invitation
to the contemplative life the contemplative practice
that's why we meditate is to realize that and
in between the material and the spiritual between
the body and the spirit there's this this is
an amazing realm here and i think a lot of my
thought is focused on this these days is that
the soul the psyche as a whole spectrum of consciousness.
And remember that word psique in Greek, that
psique, that is the words usually translated
as soul. So psychology and psychiatry and psychotherapy
and anything dealing with psyche is part of soul.
That begins like... with the senses and emotions
and the rational mind, which we usually get trapped
in, and the intuitive mind and the higher forms
of consciousness. And that whole realm is a bridge
between the material and the spiritual. And for
that to be open and clear provides this pathway
from the... From the material to the spiritual.
So the soul is this great tunnel of consciousness
between the material and the spiritual. You see,
I'm still so excited about this 34 years later.
I love it, man. This is awesome. Yeah. A tunnel
of consciousness. Are you kidding me? I just
made that one up. So good. And actually, this
is a lot of what I've been focused on the past
couple of years. more and more exploring this
whole spectrum of consciousness that not only
opens up when we make this interior journey,
because it's almost like a region that we have
to pass through if we want to make this journey
to the deepest part of ourselves, but also this
belief that consciousness itself the great argument
that goes on in science, we don't believe consciousness
is just a product of the brain. We believe consciousness
is something we share in. It's a fundament of
reality. So my consciousness is part of a bigger
consciousness. And we're really right on the
realm here of things like the Logos and the Greeks
and the Tao of China. but also the word, the
second person of the Trinity, as this great personification
of all consciousness. And belief that consciousness
itself is energy and consciousness itself is
evolving. This is a great conversation to be
had, not only with other traditions who are comfortable,
Buddhism and Hinduism, Taoism are very comfortable
with this language. This is a great conversation
to be had with quantum physics right now. And
there's great conversations happening about this.
Yeah, you mentioned, I wanted you to go deeper
into this, because this was another theme in
your book. It showed up again and again, this
theology of the word, the logos. And how that
itself is a kind of universal wisdom that can
hold a lot together and kind of create that space
for interreligious dialogue. So can you go into
that? Like, what is the theology of the word?
And why would you say it's important? Yeah. And
even dialogue in general, not just the interreligious,
that's where it opens up to the dialogue in general.
Yes. The easiest way. which I use quite often.
The Greeks talked about beauty, truth, and goodness
as the transcendentals. Well, if we believe that
Jesus, the Christ, is the Word made flesh, let's
remember that the word Word doesn't mean words.
Word is our translation of the Greek logos. which
in the ancient Greek tradition was something
like this divine intelligence that saturated
reality like fire. It's not words. It's the word
before words. It's the logos before logic, logic
even. It's that great intelligence that we believe
is divine. that go along with the beauty, truth,
and goodness, if we believe Jesus as Word made
flesh, the second person of the Trinity, first
and foremost, and I'll say this very carefully,
but I can get theologians to back me up, even
before Jesus was born, there was a second person
of the Trinity that is that. That is that Logos.
Prologue of John's Gospel says that. It's totally
there. It's totally there. The beginning was
the Word. Yep. And do you know when the prologue
of the Gospel of John, I don't read Mandarin,
but I've checked with people who do. Every translation
I've found of the prologue of John in Chinese
says, in the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao
was with God, and the Tao was God, and the Tao
was made flesh and dwelt among us. Now that means...
I can read Taoist literature and learn something
about God. Yeah. You can learn something about
the second person of the Trinity by reading Taoist
literature. Yeah, yes. Because we believe that
even that is fulfilled in the Tao -made flesh
in Jesus. So I deviated a little bit there, but
since we brought up the Tao. Let me go back to
this idea of beauty, truth, and goodness. So
wherever I see beauty or truth or goodness manifesting,
this is really the second person of the Trinity
manifesting, at least in seed form. If that be
a Mozart string quartet, if that be a rose blooming,
if that be somebody giving their life in self
-sacrifice and service for justice, if that be
a... a scientific formula for quantum physics
or for a mathematical equation. If it's true,
it's godly. It's the second person of the Trinity
already manifesting. So this was actually part
of a prayer I offered this morning in our morning
prayer. Today the reading is about the glory
of God filling the temple, you know, in Solomon's
temple. And I prayed, oh, that today would be
full of manifestations of God and that we would
see them. God is manifesting. The second person
of the Trinity is manifesting. I'm looking out
here right now at this beautiful landscape of
Rome in the sunset. That's the second person
of the Trinity manifesting there. Yeah. Well,
in this, I'll bring in our mutual friend, how
we met. Father Dan Riley passed away a couple
years ago. Is it a couple years ago now? Yeah,
I mean... It's almost two years. 2024. Yeah,
it's crazy. His birthday was just two days ago.
Wow. Yeah, but he kind of makes the... As you
know, he takes the word, the logos, and then
has some kind of fun with that with Lexio. And
I think this leads right into dialogue too, is
that... like you're talking about the sunset
in Rome, here's the word, and I'm invited to
read that word, which is you're open to, you
open yourself up to it. Even, and this is the
challenge for me, it's like. Even if I have an
agenda and I'm trying to accomplish this one
thing and I'm in that production kind of work
mindset and I've got to lock in here, tunnel
vision, all this stuff, here comes a word bursting
through and I'm invited to read it. Do you have
anything to add there? the direction father dan
goes with that uh of course he wrote a book about
that i was you know really privileged to help
him with but it's uh because i found that kind
of disposition to be very liberating and free
like the word is always here that universal pattern
that the second person of the trinity manifested
like it it it shows up all the time and yeah
and i can almost It can help with my deprogramming,
and this gets into consciousness again. It helps
me to kind of deprogram the things that I'm thinking
are reality that actually aren't when I'm invited
to read the word and experience it. And oftentimes,
this is the last thing I'll say, I mean, it's
not like this is always a euphoric, blissful
experience either. you know, like sometimes,
sometimes it is like, sometimes it is that moment
of you and, and father bead. We're like, Oh my
gosh, like something huge is opening up for me
right now. Um, it was certainly that way for
me with father Dan, um, learning some of the
stuff from him, but then other times it's, it's
my child running in, you know, to my office while
I'm working, thinking that I really have to get
this done, but I don't like the words right there.
And I'm invited to read it. And I still have
to get it done. And it's not some euphoric thing,
but it's enough. It's enough and it does something.
I don't know. I could go on and on about this.
Do you have anything to add there? I was just
thinking when I was a prior of our community
back in California, I tend to be very task -oriented.
I'd have my head down and my shoulders hunched
and I got an armful of books and I'm walking
from my cell to my office. And Brother Joshua
would stop and he'd go, I don't have, oh yes,
I do have time for you. I do have time for you.
You're more important than whatever is under
my arm right now. Because we often miss these
epiphanies because we're so busy with our own
agenda. These epiphanies of nature and grace.
Yeah, and I think this is, yeah, go ahead. I
was just going to say, or Bad Bunny. I was weeping
watching the video of that. Just the exuberance,
the joy, the positivity. There's a truth there
that we really need to hear. And to have that
big banner and that big billboard that said,
the only thing I hate is love. Oh, that just
destroyed me. Somebody could be so positive.
in the face of such ugliness that's going on
yes yeah and that's that beauty truth and goodness
rising up again it's the manifestation of the
word through yeah a super bowl halftime show
that bad bunny is headlining yeah and we need
to recognize and celebrate it wherever it is
and that's our that's to me that's the first
stage of evangelization it's maybe even Re -evangelization.
But it doesn't just evangelize them, it evangelizes
us to realize God is already present here. What
does Jacob say? And I didn't know it. God was
here and I didn't even know it. Yes. Yeah, I
think I've mentioned this to you before, but
I've certainly mentioned him on the podcast before,
but one of my favorite modern philosophers, Peter
Rollins, he talks about how He used to organize
these evangelism teams, he called them, in Ireland.
So it would be a group of mostly Christians,
and they would go to these religious communities.
But here's the flip. The goal was not to share
anything about what they believed. It was they
wanted to be evangelized too. So they were evangelism
teams, but it was, we want you to evangelize
us. Reverse evangelization. Yes. Show me beauty,
truth, and goodness. Show me what I'm missing.
And I think that you said it, I mean, that posture
of, I want to experience truth and beauty and
goodness in the places and people I least expect
it. That's very important for dialogue, I think.
And this is the kind of shift in attitude, even
in the religious dialogue and in our understanding
of evangelization. Again, not living up to our
own highest standards quite often. So many examples
of this. We thought, or we acted as if evangelization
meant... going in and replacing whatever was
there with Western Christianity, which included
Gregorian chant and silk vestments. My favorite
story about this, it's so arcane. I was in Alaska
and I was supposedly doing music workshops, which
is very difficult. I was listening to some of
the music that People were playing at this evangelization
team was at this little parish in a fishing village
in Alaska. It was horrible music. It was like
the worst of the lower 48 going up there. It
was like junk food going in places of whole grains.
It's a terrible stuff and people weren't really
singing anyway. That evening, my friend who had
brought me there took me to what's called the
potlatch, which is this gathering. In it, they're
telling these ancient stories. If I recall correctly,
the old women and the younger men are doing these
dances with their hands and the men are playing
drums and they're singing. I said, why don't
you do music like that at mass? That's really
what the Second Vatican Council was calling for.
What's your native music? They said very clearly.
When the Jesuit missionaries come, they said,
you have to stop doing that pagan music and replace
it with this beautiful, chaste, sacred music
gets replaced by this chintzy stuff because it
wasn't Christian. That's not the best of our
tradition. Thomas Aquinas, so we're going to
go back a while, I'm going to pull out the heavy
hitters, says, Grace builds on but does not destroy
nature. Grace builds on but does not destroy.
And John Paul II loved this phrase, by the way.
He was a big believer in this. So whatever is
there that's already beautiful and true and good,
we just build on that. We bring it to Christ
like the three wise men bring their gifts from
the East. We build on that. and bring it to Christ,
and Christ brings that to whatever it is, to
its fulfillment, instead of replacing it. So
this is where even missionary work, but also
dialogue changes. Missionary work doesn't have
us now go in and replace everything with Western
Christianity. It's like, what's beautiful here,
and what does Christ have to say to this, and
how does Christ bring it to fruition? But even
in your religious dialogue, I walk in and I assume
that I'm in dialogue. What do you have to teach
me? Yes. What do I have to learn from a yogi
on the mountains in Himalaya? I've learned so
much. What do I have to learn from my Buddhist
monk and nun friends, my Buddhist practitioners?
I have learned so much from them. What do I have
to learn from Taoism? I've learned so much in
Taoism. I never learned in St. Andrew's grade
school in Romanoville, Illinois. Also, I just
came back from a meeting with Shia Muslims. I
was in Senegal. We were with Sufis from Senegal,
but then these Shia Muslims were in from Iran.
What do I have to learn from them, from their
devotion and their dedication? They're a great
intellectual tradition. I have a dear friend
who's a woman rabbi. And when she's actually
talking about scripture, I'm just like, gosh,
she's got a depth of understanding of the book
of Exodus that I may never have. What do I have
to learn here about my own tradition from somebody
else? Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely.
None of that has to be replaced. has been replaced.
Grace builds on nature. It builds on nature.
For this second minute meditation, I wanted to
read a passage from Father Cyprian's essay from
Epiphanies of Nature and Grace. His essay is
titled The Wealth of Nations. And in this passage,
he talks about the wise men of the East bringing
their gifts to Jesus. He writes this on page
132, quote, Yes, the three wise men coming to
visit this child, bearing their gifts, are symbols
of the rest of the world, of spiritual seekers
outside of the Hebrew covenant entering the promise,
and of the revelation which first came to the
Jewish people breaking out of its container.
But the uniqueness of this event is not just
in their visit. It's also in the fact that they
had their gifts to bring too. And just so, when
people come to Christ or come to the church,
they don't have to leave everything of themselves
behind, nor the treasures that they have found
in far -flung lands. Who they are, what they
have to offer is welcome, because, as St. Thomas
Aquinas taught, grace does not destroy, but builds
on nature. End quote. How often do we consider
that the person we're with brings their own unique
gifts to a conversation or shared experience?
Maybe we have different backgrounds or traditions
or beliefs or political leanings or whatever
it may be, but can we remember that they too,
just by being there, just by being here, just
by making the journey into dialogue, are bringing
their own unique gifts into this mystery. Are
we open enough to humbly receive these gifts,
to read the word as it is revealed to us through
the world itself? Now back to the conversation.
It's a beautiful image of, and you wrote about
it in one of your final essays, This nature that
you're witnessing and the grace that is built
upon it, you take it as a gift and you bring
it to Christ like the wise men. Would you go
a little bit deeper into that for me? Because
I feel like that is a really powerful kind of
practical movement to this of you receive it.
You receive it almost as if it's your own. And
you bring it, you carry it, you hold it. You
know, there's like a material element there.
Like you hold this thing and you give it to Christ
for fulfillment. I mean, that's, my goodness.
I mean, if every religion did that, even if just
Christians did that, I mean, think about the
kind of healing that would bring to treasure
something that much that you've received. Yeah.
And it's a whole different mentality. Sorry to
keep going back to Bad Bunny. But the whole idea
was that there was this alternative show, which
was going to be American, which I think was all
white American anyway. Yeah. Every artist was
white, I think. This is Little Box. This is what
American music sounds like. Oh my gosh. Do you
know almost all of American pop music comes out
of the basin of the Mississippi River? It's all
brought by this great combination of Afro -Island
music and the music of this unfortunate marriage
of Christianity with slavery that got brought
over from Africa. What does it mean to be an
American? At the end of his thing, Bad Bunny
is naming off all the countries in the Americas.
This is what America is. It's all these things.
It's not just that. And I get the impression
that a whole bunch of this movement is not about
let's be American again. It's let's be that kind
of American again, which is generally white Christian
American, which isn't even the whole story of
what America is. I'm the grandson of immigrants
on both sides. And my experience with America
is pretty wild and wide. But it's the same thing
with Christianity in general. I keep talking
about this idea of Western Christianity. That's
even more narrow than that. It's kind of Gregorian
Catholicism that gets exported, you know? So
we're wearing sort of back vestments and we're
seeing a Gregorian chant and we're doing all
this, you know, in the jungle of South India.
Is that absolutely necessary to see the gospel
of Jesus Christ? Is that what it looks like?
We're so monolithic about our approaches to everything.
And maybe this is back to this question, never
being satisfied with the expression. Even we're
quite monolithic about what a vocation looks
like, what it means to be a priest, what it means
to be a monk, what it means to be a sister. We're
pretty monolithic. We get set in our ways very,
very, very easily. So bringing creativity and
art even to the religious life. Are there other
ways this whole thing can be incarnated? You
know, just because they don't look familiar doesn't
mean, just because they're, well, I'm trying
to find the right words for it. Just because
it's different doesn't mean it's wrong. Yes,
yeah. In most things, there really is the sense
that beauty, truth, and goodness is already there.
It's already there. It's really on me. to open
myself up enough to receive it, you know? And
yeah, that Bad Bunny's, the conclusion of his
halftime show where he's, everyone's walking
toward the camera with all the different flags
of the Americas. I mean, it was such a beautiful
example of the kind of transcend and include.
I think Richard Rohr and Ken Wilber have talked
about like, yeah, being an American is not just
one thing. It's. all these things and and i mean
going back to the wise men kind of visual he's
bringing you know they're all walking together
um kind of and he has this football the football
said uh did it say america were better together
or something something along those lines yeah
yeah i forgot i did see that you know yeah but
but it was targeted toward union you know um
And I need your help with this. This is my struggle.
There's truth, beauty, and goodness. Because
I'm like you. I was truly appalled that there's
an alternative halftime show. Because you're
automatically dismissing the beauty, truth, and
goodness that's already there. You're just refusing
not to see it. But then... healing i'm gonna
try to work this out with you but it's like healing
doesn't happen as well like there's also truth
beauty and goodness for me to see in this people
group that for some reason i don't understand
feels disenfranchised or absolutely do you know
what i'm saying like there's yeah and that's
the complexity of dialogue where it's also kind
of wrong wrong is too dualistic but limited it's
also kind of gross for me to completely write
off these people who find some sense of understanding
or some sense of being known through this alternative
halftime show do you know what i'm saying like
i still don't like it But like dialogue has to
happen there too for healing. Absolutely. Yeah.
And I actually, I was recommended by one of the
people who was editing this that I take this
line out, but I left it in. It's like the day
that Hillary Clinton stood up and said that all
of Donald Trump's supporters were a basket of
deplorables or something like that. I think that
was a day she certainly lost the election. She
just dismissed us, a whole truth. David Brooks
speaks so beautifully about this, about liberals
can be just as guilty of this as anybody, of
really feeling like everybody's thinking like
the elite class or is thinking like the educated
liberals, and not everybody is. that people have
a truth that they're trying to hold on to, that
they should be worried if it gets threatened.
There are some fundamental values that sometimes
get washed out the way. So many of the progressive
movements went so far, so quickly, and just as
soon everybody was on board. I feel like I try
to be as liberal in the best sense of the word
as possible and probably sometimes a little more
progressive than my peers. We went to really
quickly to transgender rights and bathrooms and
things like that. Suddenly I realized, are we
really having this conversation? Do we really
think this is going to be just a normal conversation
in rural Georgia? Do you think we're just going
to be able to say it's going to be this way now?
There's a lot of steps in between. Yes. boys
and girls to transgender bathrooms. There's a
lot of steps to make to get from one way to the
other. And maybe that's not even the best solution.
I don't even say, and I know the best solution,
but that was this kind of assumption. Everybody
was on board and a lot of people were just not
on board. Yeah. Yeah. And there's an arrogance
to that too. Yes. And it creates, and this is
the parallel, I think with the alternative halftime
show. And then of, mostly let's be honest white
progressives taking things a little too far the
last half decade is that it does create both
of those scenarios create an echo chamber um
where i mean that's another reason a gap a huge
gap you know where all of a sudden someone like
elon musk or joe rogan don't fit in the democratic
party anymore even though rogan endorsed bernie
do you know what i'm saying like there's this
yeah like there has to be room for diversity
and i'm glad we're going this direction because
A lot of our conversation has been focused on
interreligious dialogue, but as organized religion
in America, my theory is that as organized religion
in America has kind of begun to fade a little
bit, people are still finding their religion
a lot of times through politics. So it is very
belonging. Yeah, that's a better way to put it.
That's yes. Dialogue has to happen there in creating
echo chambers, creating, you know, one party
that you either believe, you know, you either
believe these things or you're out. That doesn't
work. And the alternative halftime show does
not work either. It's just an echo chamber that
lacks diversity. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been part
of just several panel discussions over the past
year, especially. And I keep saying this, and
I'm not sure how well it goes over, but I'll
say it again here, that we need to lean as far
to the right as possible at this point. That's
what I keep saying. It is far as possible to
the right, because we've really lost some fundamentals
that the right holds on to. Adam Kissinger's
and the end of this Cheney's and the David Brooks.
Maybe they're not even that far right, but we
need to lean as far over there as we can. That's
where we're going to find some common ground.
We may have to compromise a little bit just for
the sake of the greater good. That's dialogue
and that's also dialogue. For this third and
final minute meditation, I wanted to read another
passage from Father Cyprian's essay, The Wealth
of Nations, in his book, Epiphanies of Nature
and Grace. I think this passage, though it's
a little bit edgy, you mentioned in the conversation
that this was discussed being taken out of the
book. I'm glad it was left in. But I think it's
so important because it really breaks open the
political climate that we are in, and it charts
a path forward toward healing. So he writes this
on page 138. When running for president against
Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton said at one point
that half of Trump's supporters were, quote,
a basket of deplorables because they were, quote,
racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic.
In other words, barbarians. That might have been
the moment she lost the election because that's
the moment she left out the Gentiles and barbarians.
To her, they were the Gentiles and barbarians,
but not to Jesus. He invites them, too, to be
co -heirs of the reign of God. Or maybe it's
those whom we don't think pass the litmus test
of what we understand orthodoxy to be, or whatever
our own version of theological correctness or
traditional values is, and we dismiss them out
of hand as if they had nothing to offer us and
we had nothing to talk about with them. We do
so at our own peril. It's so strong. We do so
at our own peril because wherever we exclude
anyone else from the church, from the table,
from our embrace, we have actually excluded ourselves
from the reign of God. I think that I really
think that a wonderful example, and of course,
we kept going back to this throughout the conversation,
but a wonderful example of this healing, integrative
movement was Bad Bunny's halftime performance.
He could have gone in all kinds of different
directions with his performance, especially when
it was announced that there was going to be this
alternative halftime show. He would have had
every right to punch back. He could have belittled
those who were coming after him. He could have
slipped into the same exclusive game that creates
echo chambers and divides rather than uniting.
But instead, he did one of the most American
things he could have possibly done. E Pluribus
Unum, out of many, won. the very ideal of the
United States of America. And it's only through,
and his whole halftime performance echoed this,
that it's only through the passage of diversity
that we awaken to our own inerrant union and
spiritual connection to God and to one another.
And that's the American way. It was one of the
most American halftime shows you could possibly
draw up. His message was unitive, inclusive,
diverse, contagiously joyful, celebratory. And
he told a story. And he invited everyone to the
dance floor of that story. Now back to the conversation.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What would you, for someone
listening, and I know you, I know we're kind
of nearing the hour here and maybe this will
be a good place for us to land, but for someone
listening, either who's interested in what you've
said about interreligious dialogue or interested
in what we've just been talking about with this
kind of dialogue that has to happen in our own
country when it comes to politics. Not to put
you on the spot, but what would you recommend?
Like, what would some advice be? As someone who
works in this space, your vocation is in this
space of dialogue. What are some next steps that
could lead us toward healing as a country, but
then also on a religious level as well? Well,
we talked about this idea of consciousness earlier
and the effect of consciousness. And this may
sound really far out for some people, but I would
say it in any crowd, in any workers, I believe
it so firmly. We have changed God's perfect plan
of evolution by our conscious choices or unconscious
choices. We've already changed God's perfect
plan in wiping out species and changing biosystems.
I really believe the next step forward in evolution
is the evolution of our consciousness. That's
what's our challenge right now. As I mentioned,
I don't know if I mentioned on this podcast that
we were talking earlier, I was at this conference
at the United Nations in Geneva in December as
part of a panel of religious leaders. They're
actually doing a program on mindfulness and public
policy, mindfulness and diplomacy, teaching meditation
practices to diplomats. And my argument about
this, the benefit of it was, This line from Albert
Einstein from 1947, I think it was. I'll say
it this way. It's not an exact quote. The problems
we face today are not going to be solved by the
same consciousness that created those problems.
We need a new consciousness. And that means being
ready to let go of all of our old categories
and really look and listen and go back to the
fundaments of reality. Along with that, my argument,
again, this was at the UN as part of this panel
on mindfulness, I believe that it's this interior
journey of contemplative prayer that is the surest
engine. of the evolution of our consciousness
if we were to really dig and find the the fundament
of our own consciousness it's going to push us
forward it's a great lesson i learned from studying
renaissance humanism um in the periods of They
call it ad fontes. What's the word? In French,
it's called ressourcement. It was part of the
whole movement of neural theology in the 20th
century that led to the Second Vatican Council.
But there's been different periods of Renaissance
humanism in the 13th, 14th century, for instance.
Ad fontes means go back to the sources, go back
to the sources, go back to the sources. But the
idea of going back to the sources, like the days
of Erasmus and the great Renaissance philosophers,
was not for a museum. To go back to the sources
so that we could be relevant to the future. What
did we leave? What have we left behind? What
do we need to get rid of that got in the way
of what we left behind so we can be relevant
for the future? And that's what the Second Vatican
Council was all about. Even in the liturgy, what
has crept in that's actually covering up some
of the fundamentals? How can we uncover those
fundamentals so that we can be relevant to the
future? And I feel like that is what the job
of contemplative prayer is. It's always an ad
fontes. It's always a resource mode. Go back,
the native people would say this too, go back
to the source. thunder heart go back to the source
go back to the source so that we can move forward
it's just this beautiful movement in and out
in and out go back to the source so we so we
can so we can move forward again and then it
takes a that takes discipline it also takes daring
and being ready for our mind to be changed and
our consciousness to be changed and no politician
on the left or the right, has got the best solutions
unless they're doing this work. That's what we're
relying on the spiritual leaders to do in these
days, is to call us back to the sources. Well,
thank you for being one of those people, Father
Cyprian. Calling us back to the sources, this
universal wisdom, this, I mean, this has been
an amazing conversation. Anything else you'd
like to hit on? I heard this, I read this, it
might have been just this morning or yesterday
in this book on Taoists, this image that really
struck me, that for this one particular Taoist
teacher, spirituality, is not so much the work
of a potter, it's more the work of a stonecutter.
At some point, it's not just about being shaped,
it's about chipping off all the stuff that we're
not. I was thinking of Michelangelo's The Four
Captives that are at the entrance of the, what's
the name of the museum in Florence that's then
at the entrance. And he hadn't quite finished
it. You could see he's still chipping away, and
these creatures are inside the rock already.
So much of our life is actually not about what
we put on. It's about what we take off, what
we get rid of, so we can get—that's going back
to the sources, too, so we can be our real selves,
hidden with Christ and God. Beautiful, my friend.
I cannot think of a better way to conclude. So
yeah, I cannot recommend your book enough to
our listeners. Thank you so much. It's a really
beautiful book. And thank you. Thank you for
teaching us about dialogue and what this looks
like. I think it's such an important conversation
today. So thanks for your time. God bless you.
Once again, that was Father Cyprian Concilio.
His book, here it is again, Epiphanies of Nature
and Grace, is available on Orbis Books' website.
It's on Amazon as well or wherever books are
sold. I have linked to more of Father Cyprian's
incredible work as well as other helpful resources
all around interreligious, interfaith dialogue.
related to our conversation. I've linked to all
of that stuff in the show notes. And you can
get to the show notes, by the way, in just the
episode description on whatever platform you're
listening to this podcast. I encourage you as
well to check out Father Cyprian's music. Just
search Cyprian Concilio on Spotify or wherever
you stream your music. So huge thanks to Father
Cyprian for sharing with us his time and contemplative
wisdom, as well as his giftedness as a musician,
which... enrich this podcast from the very beginning.
Thank you for listening to Franciscan Spirit.
This is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and
all good.