WEBVTT 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.880 Welcome to Off the Page, soon to be called Franciscan 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:14.460 Spirit. Have you ever looked back on your adolescent 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:17.300 and young adult years and wondered how those 00:00:17.300 --> 00:00:20.500 experiences formed your personality, your conscience, 00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:24.699 your ambitions and desires, and maybe even your 00:00:24.699 --> 00:00:28.399 insecurities? What did your ordinary jobs throughout 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:30.399 these formative years teach you about yourself, 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:33.299 God, and the world that you're stepping into? 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:38.020 Sometimes we shy away from these memories because 00:00:38.020 --> 00:00:40.140 they're so awkward and uncomfortable because 00:00:40.140 --> 00:00:43.700 they're so far in the past even. But have you 00:00:43.700 --> 00:00:46.479 ever considered how God was working in you and 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:49.020 through you during this impactful stage of life? 00:00:50.060 --> 00:00:52.759 And as you stepped into young adulthood, what 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:54.700 did you learn about the cruelty and goodness 00:00:54.700 --> 00:00:58.399 of the world, about being mean or kind, and about 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:01.979 who you wanted to become? All of this, as we'll 00:01:01.979 --> 00:01:06.400 discuss in this episode, forms and informs who 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:09.969 we are today. In this episode, I sit down with 00:01:09.969 --> 00:01:12.930 Father James Martin, Jesuit priest, best -selling 00:01:12.930 --> 00:01:15.370 author, and one of the most relatable voices 00:01:15.370 --> 00:01:18.849 in contemporary spirituality today for a heartfelt, 00:01:19.030 --> 00:01:22.049 often hilarious conversation about his new memoir, 00:01:22.329 --> 00:01:26.810 Work in Progress. His numerous summer jobs are 00:01:26.810 --> 00:01:29.810 listed in the subtitle of his book, Confessions 00:01:29.810 --> 00:01:33.849 of a Busboy, Dishwasher, Caddy, Usher, Factory 00:01:33.849 --> 00:01:37.310 Worker, Bank Teller, Corporate Tool, and Priest. 00:01:37.900 --> 00:01:41.480 We laugh about teenage humiliations, the sting 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:44.819 of mean customers, the friends who quietly modeled 00:01:44.819 --> 00:01:47.379 kindness without caring what anyone thought, 00:01:47.620 --> 00:01:50.599 and the free spirits who shook us out of autopilot 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:53.780 and helped us glimpse who we might become. But 00:01:53.780 --> 00:01:56.739 more than stories, this is an invitation to look 00:01:56.739 --> 00:02:00.439 back at your own life with fresh eyes, to see 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:03.579 God's quiet presence woven through ordinary and 00:02:03.579 --> 00:02:06.739 imperfect work, to practice self -compassion, 00:02:07.019 --> 00:02:09.900 instead of shame, to rediscover the superpower 00:02:09.900 --> 00:02:13.699 of not needing everyone's approval, and really 00:02:13.699 --> 00:02:17.319 the gift of being oneself, and to remember one 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.939 simple life -changing truth. You don't need a 00:02:20.939 --> 00:02:25.000 PhD to be kind, as Father Jim writes. And kindness, 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:28.860 he continues, might just be 90 % of what it means 00:02:28.860 --> 00:02:33.110 to follow in the way of Jesus. I've provided 00:02:33.110 --> 00:02:35.210 reflection segments throughout this episode, 00:02:35.250 --> 00:02:37.830 which, again, if you're new to the podcast, these 00:02:37.830 --> 00:02:40.090 are just opportunities to sit with something 00:02:40.090 --> 00:02:43.050 a guest has said or a theme that we're discussing 00:02:43.050 --> 00:02:46.789 and really allow the guest's wisdom to sink deeper 00:02:46.789 --> 00:02:50.990 into our hearts. So whether you're spiritually 00:02:50.990 --> 00:02:54.330 curious, wrestling with your own calling, longing 00:02:54.330 --> 00:02:57.689 to understand yourself more deeply, or just craving 00:02:57.689 --> 00:03:00.990 a reminder that your story matters, this episode 00:03:00.990 --> 00:03:04.729 is for you. God meets us exactly where we are, 00:03:04.849 --> 00:03:08.530 flawed, funny, and still very much a work in 00:03:08.530 --> 00:03:12.930 progress. So without further ado, here is Father 00:03:12.930 --> 00:03:22.710 James Martin. Enjoy. Father Jim, thanks for coming 00:03:22.710 --> 00:03:25.370 on the podcast. My pleasure. Thanks for inviting 00:03:25.370 --> 00:03:30.740 me. Yeah, so I loved your book. I'm, I'm real 00:03:30.740 --> 00:03:34.199 passionate about memoir myself. It was vulnerable. 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:38.159 It was funny. You know, as you're going through 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:40.259 all these different summer jobs you had through 00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:43.199 adolescence and into your college years. And, 00:03:43.219 --> 00:03:46.939 you know, it really it does. In my opinion, it 00:03:46.939 --> 00:03:50.900 does what a good memoir should do is it as I 00:03:50.900 --> 00:03:53.560 was listening to you and your stories, reading 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:57.689 your stories. I started thinking about my own 00:03:57.689 --> 00:04:00.710 summer jobs. And a good memoirist kind of gets 00:04:00.710 --> 00:04:04.750 to striking a universal chord. And it made me 00:04:04.750 --> 00:04:08.270 self -reflective. So first off, to begin, I was 00:04:08.270 --> 00:04:10.349 just wondering, why did you write this book? 00:04:10.449 --> 00:04:13.250 And why did you go the memoir route? Yeah, well, 00:04:13.330 --> 00:04:15.430 thanks for those kind words. I'm glad you liked 00:04:15.430 --> 00:04:19.209 it. I wrote it basically, I mean, we Jesuits, 00:04:19.209 --> 00:04:21.810 we have an expression to help souls, right? That's 00:04:21.810 --> 00:04:24.860 what we do. That's why we do everything. But 00:04:24.860 --> 00:04:26.800 specifically this book, exactly what you were 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:28.899 talking about, to encourage people to see that 00:04:28.899 --> 00:04:31.779 their own lives are filled with God's presence 00:04:31.779 --> 00:04:33.699 and that God can work through the life of a busboy, 00:04:33.899 --> 00:04:36.220 a caddy, a dishwasher, an usher, a corporate 00:04:36.220 --> 00:04:41.279 tool, and even a priest. So that was the main 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:43.120 reason, to kind of help people see God in their 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:46.439 own lives. And also, you know... to tell some 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:48.899 funny stories. I think, I think it's, it's not 00:04:48.899 --> 00:04:50.879 such a bad thing to make people smile from time 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:52.800 to time. And some of these stories, you know, 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.279 as you pointed out are pretty, pretty crazy and 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:58.459 they're all true. They're all true. Yeah. Well, 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:02.240 your, your memory is really quite remarkable. 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:04.759 The, the details. And I know you had some journals 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:06.740 as well that you could go back to. I'm sure that 00:05:06.740 --> 00:05:11.540 was really helpful. I, um, For me, when I, memoir 00:05:11.540 --> 00:05:13.720 is something, one of my favorite art forms, but 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:18.100 I kind of struggle sometimes to get past the, 00:05:18.220 --> 00:05:22.639 because I feel things very deeply. So for me, 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.899 when I go back into memories, it's oftentimes 00:05:24.899 --> 00:05:28.949 attached to an emotion. You know, and emotion, 00:05:29.050 --> 00:05:31.970 as we know, can sometimes kind of cloud memory 00:05:31.970 --> 00:05:35.550 and you don't always get the most objective sense 00:05:35.550 --> 00:05:37.949 of that memory. And I appreciated that about 00:05:37.949 --> 00:05:40.290 your book. It was journalistic in a sense. It 00:05:40.290 --> 00:05:44.410 was objective, all the details. And adolescence 00:05:44.410 --> 00:05:50.300 is just such a confusing time that. To me, I 00:05:50.300 --> 00:05:52.800 got the feeling like, yeah, it is what it is. 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:56.040 What did you learn about yourself as you went 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.339 back into these different memories? What a great 00:05:59.339 --> 00:06:02.899 question. As you mentioned, I found a journal 00:06:02.899 --> 00:06:05.139 that I kept when I was 15, which was a gold mine, 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:09.040 two volumes. A volume, it makes it sound so grand. 00:06:09.100 --> 00:06:12.160 It was in a composition book, those old wide 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.300 rule composition books. And I found it. When 00:06:15.300 --> 00:06:18.019 my mom was moving out of her house where we had 00:06:18.019 --> 00:06:22.240 lived for 50 years, and as soon as I touched 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:24.199 it on the bottom of the drawer, I remember this, 00:06:24.259 --> 00:06:27.379 I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I remember writing 00:06:27.379 --> 00:06:31.120 this. And opening it up was like meeting myself 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:35.680 unmediated at 15, which you tend not to have 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.519 an opportunity to do. I mean, as you say, memory 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:43.459 can be very sort of obscuring and can kind of 00:06:43.459 --> 00:06:48.310 change what we think. to read the actual things 00:06:48.310 --> 00:06:50.370 that I was thinking is pretty amazing. So that 00:06:50.370 --> 00:06:54.569 was kind of a goldmine. I found that I have a 00:06:54.569 --> 00:06:56.810 good visual memory, so I can go back and really 00:06:56.810 --> 00:06:59.610 just close my eyes and I think, you know, recreate, 00:06:59.750 --> 00:07:02.230 you know, where I was. As I say in the book, 00:07:02.250 --> 00:07:04.410 and I have a good memory for conversations and 00:07:04.410 --> 00:07:06.569 for funny phrases, a funny phrase that someone 00:07:06.569 --> 00:07:08.829 says or a cruel phrase that someone says will 00:07:08.829 --> 00:07:11.850 stick with you forever. And, you know, I've told 00:07:11.850 --> 00:07:13.850 these stories, you know, a couple times, so I 00:07:13.850 --> 00:07:17.750 remember them. I think what I'm less strong on 00:07:17.750 --> 00:07:21.930 is sequence and timing. You know, like, when 00:07:21.930 --> 00:07:23.610 did this happen? I mean, I had a hard time remembering. 00:07:24.310 --> 00:07:26.889 Did I caddy before I was an usher to movie theater? 00:07:27.170 --> 00:07:29.990 And in fact, I'll confess something to you. As 00:07:29.990 --> 00:07:31.730 I was writing the book, I have a very strong 00:07:31.730 --> 00:07:34.629 memory for songs, as we all do, that were playing 00:07:34.629 --> 00:07:38.829 at the time. And the year I was describing my 00:07:38.829 --> 00:07:40.970 time as a movie theater usher, there were some 00:07:40.970 --> 00:07:45.260 songs that were very vivid songs. Hmm. Jerry 00:07:45.260 --> 00:07:47.379 Rafferty's Baker Street, Chuck Mangione's Feels 00:07:47.379 --> 00:07:49.759 So Good, a couple others just burned into my 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:51.699 mind that they certainly were there while I was 00:07:51.699 --> 00:07:54.379 in the movie theater. And then I looked at some 00:07:54.379 --> 00:07:55.759 of the movies I remembered. It was a different 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.920 year. So I think I must have worked there two 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:03.879 summers, right? So I finessed that a little bit. 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:08.800 So what I learned about myself was that... Particularly 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.860 in the journals. I was a pretty normal 15 -year 00:08:11.860 --> 00:08:14.560 -old kid who just wanted people to like him and 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:16.600 wanted to have cool clothes and cool records 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:18.879 and have everyone think he was the coolest kid 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:24.079 in the school, which he certainly wasn't. You 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.519 mean keeping a journal wasn't cool back then? 00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:31.579 Well, you know, I don't think any of my friends... 00:08:31.579 --> 00:08:34.240 I mean, I think the girls back then, this is 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:37.220 not to sound sexist, but girls kept... diaries, 00:08:37.259 --> 00:08:40.919 you know, dear diaries. I kept a journal in 1976 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.659 when I was 15, way before you were born, probably, 00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:47.179 because it was the bicentennial year. And I thought 00:08:47.179 --> 00:08:49.840 I was going to record all these. But, you know, 00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:52.320 most of the journal entries, some of which are 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.620 like, you know, two pages for a day, are not 00:08:54.620 --> 00:08:56.360 about the bicentennial, they're about what happened 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:58.179 in school, what I was thinking and my friends. 00:08:58.419 --> 00:09:01.159 And so, as I said, it was a real goldmine and 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:03.120 really helped me with the book. And I was able 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:05.190 to... in a sense, you know, quote from it and 00:09:05.190 --> 00:09:07.970 say, this is how I felt. This is not stuff. This 00:09:07.970 --> 00:09:09.769 is not me making it up and looking back on it 00:09:09.769 --> 00:09:13.169 with rose colored glasses. Yeah. What surprised 00:09:13.169 --> 00:09:16.830 you as you were going back? As I was looking 00:09:16.830 --> 00:09:19.769 through the journal? Yeah. Or just as you were 00:09:19.769 --> 00:09:23.009 going back into some of these memories and you 00:09:23.009 --> 00:09:26.870 were very, I really appreciated how you named 00:09:26.870 --> 00:09:31.860 so well. This common experience of what it's 00:09:31.860 --> 00:09:34.259 like, you know, being an adolescent and stepping 00:09:34.259 --> 00:09:37.620 into young adulthood and the insecurity and like 00:09:37.620 --> 00:09:40.759 you said, wanting to be liked and that humiliation 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.559 and embarrassment, you know, like all those feelings 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.700 of smallness that, I mean, it's just such an 00:09:46.700 --> 00:09:50.679 awkward time for everyone on some level that 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:53.779 to name that, I think it's a really great skill. 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.659 But, you know, what jumped out to you? Did anything 00:09:56.659 --> 00:09:59.389 surprise you there? Well, I think just what you 00:09:59.389 --> 00:10:00.990 said, and thank you for using that word, which 00:10:00.990 --> 00:10:03.590 I don't think I use in the book. I use unsure, 00:10:04.129 --> 00:10:08.230 you know, uncomfortable. But I think that word 00:10:08.230 --> 00:10:11.470 is a great word, insecurity, right? The insecurity 00:10:11.470 --> 00:10:15.549 of, you know, going into a new summer job where, 00:10:15.649 --> 00:10:18.429 for whatever reason, I mean, I had a lot of friends 00:10:18.429 --> 00:10:21.350 in junior high school and high school. And for 00:10:21.350 --> 00:10:22.929 whatever reason, when I went into these summer 00:10:22.929 --> 00:10:24.970 jobs, none of my friends were there. Just, you 00:10:24.970 --> 00:10:26.809 know, the luck of the draw, right? And I ended 00:10:26.809 --> 00:10:30.009 up... working, you know, as a caddy, a busboy, 00:10:30.110 --> 00:10:32.110 a dishwasher, a movie theater usher, a factory 00:10:32.110 --> 00:10:34.350 worker with people I'd never met before. And 00:10:34.350 --> 00:10:38.029 when you're 15 or 16 and you walk into a caddy 00:10:38.029 --> 00:10:40.250 shack full of these kids who are like two or 00:10:40.250 --> 00:10:41.629 three years older than you, bigger than you, 00:10:41.710 --> 00:10:44.330 they golf better, they golf better than me, meaning 00:10:44.330 --> 00:10:47.990 they golf at all. It's it's it's kind of it's 00:10:47.990 --> 00:10:50.450 it's kind of you feel like you're on the back 00:10:50.450 --> 00:10:53.450 foot, I think, as the British say. And so I. 00:10:54.090 --> 00:10:56.690 I wanted to convey that sense of insecurity and 00:10:56.690 --> 00:11:00.190 say that God can work even through that. And 00:11:00.190 --> 00:11:02.070 then also the lessons I learned. I learned a 00:11:02.070 --> 00:11:04.789 lot of lessons, particularly about how not to 00:11:04.789 --> 00:11:08.409 treat people. The book starts off with a kind 00:11:08.409 --> 00:11:11.070 of humiliating experience I had when I was a 00:11:11.070 --> 00:11:13.049 busboy, which, you know, I sort of play for laughs, 00:11:13.169 --> 00:11:16.850 but it was pretty embarrassing. And I remember 00:11:16.850 --> 00:11:19.370 being mistreated. I'm 15 years old and mistreated 00:11:19.370 --> 00:11:23.169 by this patron, this customer. And just thinking 00:11:23.169 --> 00:11:24.809 at that time, which I can remember thinking, 00:11:24.929 --> 00:11:26.990 I will never treat anyone like this in my entire 00:11:26.990 --> 00:11:30.529 life. So I learned a lot of lessons. But really, 00:11:30.590 --> 00:11:38.450 that word you used is very apt, insecurity. So 00:11:38.450 --> 00:11:40.990 in this first reflection segment, this first 00:11:40.990 --> 00:11:43.750 minute meditation, I wanted to talk about memoir 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:47.679 writing and time travel. One of my creative Bibles 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.220 for memoir writing is Mary Carr's wonderful book, 00:11:50.379 --> 00:11:53.860 The Art of Memoir. And I pretty much read it 00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:56.659 before I begin any new writing project. And at 00:11:56.659 --> 00:11:59.799 the beginning, she mentions that whereas a fiction 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:02.860 writer starts with meaning and then manufactures 00:12:02.860 --> 00:12:06.000 events to represent it, a memoirist usually does 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:08.860 the opposite. A memoirist starts with events 00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:13.429 and then derives meaning from those events. And 00:12:13.429 --> 00:12:16.750 I think meaning making is a beautiful thing on 00:12:16.750 --> 00:12:19.230 the spiritual journey. And that's what a good 00:12:19.230 --> 00:12:22.330 memoirist does. But it's also something that 00:12:22.330 --> 00:12:25.950 I think we all can do. Of course, I should say 00:12:25.950 --> 00:12:28.750 there are scenes in our lives that require professional 00:12:28.750 --> 00:12:33.450 help. to work through, trauma, pain, abuse. But 00:12:33.450 --> 00:12:36.429 there are other scenes, if you will, you know, 00:12:36.429 --> 00:12:39.450 particularly from our formative years that, yeah, 00:12:39.529 --> 00:12:43.350 may be complicated or awkward or messy. Summer 00:12:43.350 --> 00:12:46.570 jobs or interactions at school or memories with 00:12:46.570 --> 00:12:49.590 friends that can become our teachers and our 00:12:49.590 --> 00:12:53.029 guides, even today, shining light on our tendencies, 00:12:53.169 --> 00:12:56.870 our desires, our true selves, and even our false 00:12:56.870 --> 00:13:00.740 selves. You know, for example, Most summers throughout 00:13:00.740 --> 00:13:02.480 high school and college, I worked at Deer Creek 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:05.480 Golf Club in Clayton, Indiana, right by my family's 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:08.759 house. And one day our fairways had been aerated, 00:13:08.779 --> 00:13:12.940 which is basically when the maintenance crew 00:13:12.940 --> 00:13:15.460 punches holes in the ground in order to keep 00:13:15.460 --> 00:13:19.559 the grass healthy and the conditions healthy 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:23.299 at the course and on the ground. So one day I 00:13:23.299 --> 00:13:25.440 was asked to go. I worked in the pro shop, so 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:28.440 I was asked to go out to the ninth hole and remind 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:30.519 the group. that they needed to keep their carts 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:34.799 on the path because of the aeration. I did not 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.620 like confrontation, and I froze mid -confrontation 00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:43.299 and told him, I told the group that our fairways 00:13:43.299 --> 00:13:47.360 were being radiated, not aerated, you know, as 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:51.419 if this was some nuclear site like Chernobyl 00:13:51.419 --> 00:13:55.730 or something. I knew it right when it came out 00:13:55.730 --> 00:13:58.090 of my mouth that it was not the word that I was 00:13:58.090 --> 00:14:03.029 looking for. And the man I was talking to really 00:14:03.029 --> 00:14:07.169 seized the opportunity and made me feel like 00:14:07.169 --> 00:14:09.590 an idiot. He went off on me, started making fun 00:14:09.590 --> 00:14:13.690 of me in front of his friends, made me feel dumber 00:14:13.690 --> 00:14:17.830 and smaller than I already felt. I went back 00:14:17.830 --> 00:14:21.090 to the clubhouse with a flushed face and tried 00:14:21.090 --> 00:14:23.029 to avoid that group for the rest of the day. 00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:31.320 A funny memory, awkward memory for sure. And 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:36.100 so what did this teach me? You know, the way 00:14:36.100 --> 00:14:39.340 that that one moment ate at me throughout the 00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:42.799 rest of the day, the fact that I can recall it 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:47.259 even now, perhaps it teaches me that I am horrified 00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:51.440 of being perceived as incompetent. But also, 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:54.600 that it doesn't really matter what people think. 00:14:54.779 --> 00:14:59.600 So there's an insecurity there, but that insecurity 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:03.399 also provides a pathway for truth, I think, to 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:07.679 accept what God says about me rather than what 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:13.059 this one person was saying about me. And it's 00:15:13.059 --> 00:15:14.580 interesting, isn't it? You know, I mean, this 00:15:14.580 --> 00:15:19.460 person was a flat -out jerk. So why was I allowing 00:15:19.460 --> 00:15:27.529 this jerk to have any say on who I was. Why was 00:15:27.529 --> 00:15:31.809 I giving this person's opinion, this person's 00:15:31.809 --> 00:15:33.830 meanness, so much of my energy and attention? 00:15:34.850 --> 00:15:37.909 It's a question that's kind of interesting to 00:15:37.909 --> 00:15:41.909 explore. So, you know, that's a silly example, 00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:45.590 but maybe you're not a memoirist, maybe you are, 00:15:45.750 --> 00:15:50.370 but maybe you can be a curious, non -judgmental 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:54.139 explorer of your story. nonetheless and maybe 00:15:54.139 --> 00:15:57.120 maybe you'll learn something about god or yourself 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.620 or the very fabric of life that may influence 00:16:00.620 --> 00:16:04.679 how you participate in the present that is one 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:09.419 of the real gifts of memoir and memories now 00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:19.000 back to the conversation hmm yeah in another 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:23.149 theme kind of connected to that is you talked 00:16:23.149 --> 00:16:26.710 about friends you had along the way who didn't 00:16:26.710 --> 00:16:30.009 really care what others thought, whereas you, 00:16:30.110 --> 00:16:32.009 and I think most of us, when we're going through 00:16:32.009 --> 00:16:34.529 that period of life, we really care what others 00:16:34.529 --> 00:16:36.889 think. And I noticed that even today, I think 00:16:36.889 --> 00:16:40.230 it's human, it still creeps up. But you called 00:16:40.230 --> 00:16:43.149 it a superpower to not care what others think. 00:16:43.250 --> 00:16:46.809 So a question I had for you was here on the back 00:16:46.809 --> 00:16:50.480 end, you know, looking back at that, How do you 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:54.360 develop that superpower of not caring what others 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.679 think and really leaning into who you are as 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:00.279 the beloved, as someone who God has uniquely 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:03.039 made you to be? Well, the people that did that 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:07.319 in my life when I was young, I think it came 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:09.599 from their family background, right? I'm thinking 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:11.799 of this one guy named Greg who was always kind 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:14.180 to people, no matter who they were. And he always 00:17:14.180 --> 00:17:17.359 was, you know, and he still is. And so I think 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:19.119 a lot of it, and he came from a fairly religious 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.259 family, so I think a lot of it is your family 00:17:21.259 --> 00:17:24.539 background. But I think, you know, in later life, 00:17:24.619 --> 00:17:26.940 it's a choice, right? If you're not raised that 00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:29.180 way. I mean, my parents were not obsessed with 00:17:29.180 --> 00:17:30.839 people liking them. Let me get this straight. 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:34.799 That was sort of my own kind of makeup. But I 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:37.160 think later in life, it's a choice. And the choice 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:39.420 is to be free of the need for people to love, 00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:42.420 like, or approve of you. That's just it. And 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:45.119 when we look at Jesus, we see someone who... 00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:48.720 you know, he was free of that need when he's 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:50.920 in the rejection at Nazareth, right? And everybody 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.200 stands up and wants to throw him off the brow 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:56.059 of the hill. And I was just thinking of Francis 00:17:56.059 --> 00:17:59.240 of Assisi. I mean, he strips naked and the public's 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.799 wearing Assisi. I mean, talk about, you know, 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:05.059 not caring what anybody thinks, you know, right 00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:08.160 in front of his father and his mother. And so 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:11.759 that's, I think, a key spiritual move and a key 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:16.019 move to just adult maturity. Because otherwise 00:18:16.019 --> 00:18:19.140 you're stuck, right? You're just paralyzed. And 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:23.019 I think through the book, I sort of come to realize 00:18:23.019 --> 00:18:25.839 that. And then, you know, eventually I end up 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:28.200 in the Jesuits and, you know, everybody thinks 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:34.079 I'm nuts. So, but I didn't care. Yeah, being 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.480 nuts I've learned is kind of a good place to 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.099 be. You know, like I've in my own life, like 00:18:39.099 --> 00:18:43.460 I can feel it when I start taking myself too 00:18:43.460 --> 00:18:48.789 seriously. And in moments like that, for example, 00:18:48.809 --> 00:18:50.809 sometimes I'll just do something simple like 00:18:50.809 --> 00:18:55.809 put on a pair of goofy socks. Or I can remember 00:18:55.809 --> 00:18:58.589 one time where I was giving a talk connected 00:18:58.589 --> 00:19:01.769 to a book I wrote, and I was just taking myself 00:19:01.769 --> 00:19:04.609 way, way, way too seriously in preparation for 00:19:04.609 --> 00:19:08.150 the talk. So I kind of just stared that anxiety 00:19:08.150 --> 00:19:10.319 in the face and was like, you know what? Screw 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:14.779 it. Like, I'm going to completely reframe, like 00:19:14.779 --> 00:19:18.079 completely restructure this talk and begin with 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.359 a parable that I wrote a couple hours before, 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:23.119 just to like, you know what I'm saying? Just 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.400 to kind of reposition my soul to be like, this 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.440 does not matter. It matters, but it doesn't matter. 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:32.480 No, you're right. And I think how you're framing 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.420 things and why are you giving a talk and why 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:37.900 are you writing a book? And it's about... you 00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:39.940 know, giving glory to God or it's about helping 00:19:39.940 --> 00:19:41.880 people to find God in their own lives. It's not 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.400 about you. And look, some people are going to 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:46.700 like you and some people are not going to like 00:19:46.700 --> 00:19:47.799 you. Some people are going to hate you. Some 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:49.359 people are going to love you. And that includes 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.099 your writing and your talks. And you have very 00:19:52.099 --> 00:19:55.079 little control over that. And so it's going into 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:58.299 it free, right? But you're right. I think authors 00:19:58.299 --> 00:20:01.180 can get very self -important. You know, my book, 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:06.240 my art, my writing, all that BS. Well, I, and 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:10.240 I think memoir kind of gets a bad rap too, because 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.140 it feels to some, it feels like kind of navel 00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:16.599 gazing, you know, but it's actually the opposite 00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:21.400 where you're going so deep into those memories 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:25.099 that we talked about, where you're not only finding, 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.460 at least in my experience, like you're finding 00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:31.160 a sense of integration in yourself and then also 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:36.119 healing. For these kind of difficult or times 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.339 in your life that may lack resolve, you're finding 00:20:38.339 --> 00:20:40.460 a sense of healing there that you then get to 00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:43.400 share with the people who read it, who listen 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:45.319 to the audiobook, which is really great. I mean, 00:20:45.380 --> 00:20:48.579 do you have anything to add there? No, I was 00:20:48.579 --> 00:20:50.200 just going to say you're right. It's a strange 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:52.980 thing because you could be accused of narcissism 00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:55.680 or navel -gazing. Who cares about your summer 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.029 jobs? The whole idea of writing the book is I 00:20:59.029 --> 00:21:01.269 already know these stories. I don't need to tell 00:21:01.269 --> 00:21:03.630 them for myself. It's to help other people, right? 00:21:03.930 --> 00:21:06.930 And really, the focus of the book, it's a kind 00:21:06.930 --> 00:21:09.789 of sneaky vocation story. Now, if I called it 00:21:09.789 --> 00:21:12.710 How One Man Became a Jesuit Priest, people would 00:21:12.710 --> 00:21:15.130 say, oh, I don't know about that. But it's a 00:21:15.130 --> 00:21:17.809 vocation story told through the lens of these 00:21:17.809 --> 00:21:21.420 summer jobs and through work in general. So, 00:21:21.460 --> 00:21:23.000 yeah, you always have to keep in front of you, 00:21:23.059 --> 00:21:24.819 why am I writing this book? And it's certainly 00:21:24.819 --> 00:21:27.299 not about making the author look good. And I 00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:30.160 say at the beginning of the book, I'm not going 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.740 to come out as this, like, fantastic hero that 00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:36.099 does all these great things. In fact, I think 00:21:36.099 --> 00:21:38.019 when you're writing a memoir, being more self 00:21:38.019 --> 00:21:40.019 -deprecating and more critical of yourself. And 00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:43.559 I do some pretty, not awful things, but, you 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:47.920 know, I'm not kind to a developmentally disabled 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.349 guy who I work with at the movie theater. I run 00:21:52.349 --> 00:21:55.269 out of a birthday party my parents threw me so 00:21:55.269 --> 00:21:57.470 I could get drunk again and go to a strip club. 00:21:57.730 --> 00:22:02.630 I tell Jesus jokes on the night that John Paul 00:22:02.630 --> 00:22:08.170 I died. It's looking at your own humanity and 00:22:08.170 --> 00:22:09.950 your own sinfulness and also having mercy on 00:22:09.950 --> 00:22:15.130 it. Yes. That was another question I had for 00:22:15.130 --> 00:22:19.950 you. Sometimes when we go back into the past, 00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:26.200 it's easy to kind of take on guilt or shame. 00:22:26.339 --> 00:22:28.779 And I think that's another really beautiful thing 00:22:28.779 --> 00:22:31.400 about memoir is that you're kind of saying like, 00:22:31.420 --> 00:22:33.940 no, this is part of my story. And in some way 00:22:33.940 --> 00:22:38.170 it helped make me who I am. So, but. For those 00:22:38.170 --> 00:22:40.690 who may be interested, maybe they're not a memoirist, 00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:43.829 but they're interested in going back into their 00:22:43.829 --> 00:22:46.410 formative years and exploring some of these memories, 00:22:46.650 --> 00:22:49.250 what advice would you give them about navigating 00:22:49.250 --> 00:22:52.769 guilt, navigating shame for things that they 00:22:52.769 --> 00:22:56.190 did or didn't do, like you said? There's a Gerard 00:22:56.190 --> 00:22:58.549 Manley Hopkins poem. Gerard Manley Hopkins was 00:22:58.549 --> 00:23:01.329 a Jesuit poet, and it starts, My own heart let 00:23:01.329 --> 00:23:04.990 me have more pity on Lord. Right, so this sense 00:23:04.990 --> 00:23:07.170 of kind of self -compassion. I would say a couple 00:23:07.170 --> 00:23:11.130 things. Number one, no one's perfect. I mean, 00:23:11.190 --> 00:23:13.690 you know, unless you're Jesus or Mary writing 00:23:13.690 --> 00:23:16.130 a book, right, or you're Jesus or Mary looking 00:23:16.130 --> 00:23:18.349 over your life, there's going to be some sinful 00:23:18.349 --> 00:23:21.529 things in it. There just are. That's the first 00:23:21.529 --> 00:23:24.349 thing, so nobody's perfect. Second thing is, 00:23:24.390 --> 00:23:27.089 I think to have some real compassion for things 00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:30.799 you did as a child and as a teenager. and as 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:33.039 a young adult even, right? Because we all go 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.700 through these things. And the third thing is, 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.240 you know, can you, even if you did do some pretty 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.019 terrible things, can you forgive yourself? Because 00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:42.640 God forgives yourself. God forgives you. You 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:44.319 know, and if you need to go to confession for 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:46.920 it, great. You know, I tell a story in the book, 00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.819 which I think is kind of funny. I wrote a book 00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:52.000 about 20 years ago called In Good Company, which 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:54.759 was a more straight down the line vocation story. 00:23:56.650 --> 00:23:59.430 The book included, as this one does, tales of 00:23:59.430 --> 00:24:02.950 drinking and smoking pot and, you know, the kinds 00:24:02.950 --> 00:24:04.869 of things that a teenager would do in the 70s 00:24:04.869 --> 00:24:09.289 and 80s. And they used it for a group of high, 00:24:09.309 --> 00:24:11.509 a number of high schools used it for their high 00:24:11.509 --> 00:24:14.049 school kids, okay, Catholic high schools. So 00:24:14.049 --> 00:24:16.750 here's the funny story. So the president of one 00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:18.950 of these high schools out on Long Island wrote 00:24:18.950 --> 00:24:21.750 to me and said, would you write a letter that 00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:24.490 I could show to parents if the kids bring the 00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:27.599 book home and it talks about you know, getting 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.019 drunk and getting high and whatnot. I said, sure. 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:31.599 So I wrote a letter saying, I don't obviously 00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:34.140 recommend this. This is my experience, blah, 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:36.700 blah, blah. And a couple of months later, he 00:24:36.700 --> 00:24:39.519 said, no one complained because all the parents 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:41.319 are as old as you are. And they all had that 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:46.539 same experience. So everybody, everybody has 00:24:46.539 --> 00:24:48.299 these experiences. And I think we have to look 00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:50.319 back on them with, you know, with learning, like, 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:53.000 what did you learn? And what do you not want 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.420 to do today as an adult, but also with some pity 00:24:55.420 --> 00:25:00.240 on, a 15 year old, 16 year old kid. Yeah. Well, 00:25:00.339 --> 00:25:02.700 yeah. What you just said, I think is so important 00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:06.099 because, and I know listening to your book, we, 00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:09.740 we both love and were impacted by Thomas Merton, 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:13.420 seven story mountain and the. even though like 00:25:13.420 --> 00:25:16.299 you said merton then is he's kind of more black 00:25:16.299 --> 00:25:19.579 or white you know like he he's um his journey 00:25:19.579 --> 00:25:22.259 then is more linear definitely compared to his 00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:24.420 later stuff when he gets into like zen buddhism 00:25:24.420 --> 00:25:27.759 and more eastern thinking but he the thing i 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:30.839 really appreciated even with all the editing 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:33.750 and the stuff that got taken out was that Merton 00:25:33.750 --> 00:25:37.390 came across as someone who was unashamedly human 00:25:37.390 --> 00:25:39.710 and that's throughout his writing. Um, and that's 00:25:39.710 --> 00:25:42.670 what makes him relatable. Uh, and, and in that, 00:25:42.690 --> 00:25:45.410 in that relatability, there are lessons, there 00:25:45.410 --> 00:25:49.190 are things that, Oh, I'm, I'm not alone in this. 00:25:49.349 --> 00:25:54.470 Um, like I reading your book, I, it was refreshing 00:25:54.470 --> 00:25:57.769 to get, cause my high school, middle school, 00:25:57.789 --> 00:25:59.670 high school years were kind of difficult as it 00:25:59.670 --> 00:26:01.230 is for a lot of people, I think. And it was like, 00:26:01.289 --> 00:26:03.839 Oh, I'm I'm not alone. Like, this was a confusing 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:08.960 time for... Everybody. Everybody. Yes. I mean, 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:12.140 I think that everyone probably feels this sense 00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:15.819 of, do people like me? Do they think I'm cool? 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:18.200 Again, except for these people who were really 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:21.759 kind of comfortable in their own skin. Most adolescents, 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:24.740 and I would say sometimes most adults or many 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:27.799 adults, feel this sense of, do people like me? 00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:31.650 And that can be paralyzing, as I said. Yeah, 00:26:31.769 --> 00:26:34.869 I mean, as I said, I wrote this to enable people 00:26:34.869 --> 00:26:36.869 to look back on their own lives and see it with 00:26:36.869 --> 00:26:40.549 a sense of pity and mercy and joy, too, and gratitude. 00:26:41.630 --> 00:26:45.369 Yes, yeah. And you mentioned something just now. 00:26:45.569 --> 00:26:49.049 It was a theme that kind of arose throughout 00:26:49.049 --> 00:26:51.630 the book and the connection, you said, between 00:26:51.630 --> 00:26:54.710 being kind and being comfortable in your own 00:26:54.710 --> 00:26:58.170 skin. Can you go deeper into that? Of course. 00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:04.980 sort of incidents that I talk about was when 00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:09.279 I was 17, 18, I worked as a movie theater usher 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:11.420 at the Cinema on the Mall in Plymouth Meeting, 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.619 Pennsylvania, which is where I grew up, the Plymouth 00:27:13.619 --> 00:27:16.619 Meeting Mall. And I was an usher. So I did all 00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:19.079 the things that ushers do, including tear tickets, 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:22.140 clean bathrooms, make popcorn, all that kind 00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:25.539 of stuff, clean up vomit and whatnot. And there 00:27:25.539 --> 00:27:28.579 was a fellow who worked with us who was probably 00:27:28.579 --> 00:27:33.900 in his 30s. who in the book I think I call Stanley. 00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:38.059 That was not his real name. And he must have 00:27:38.059 --> 00:27:41.339 had some sort of autism on the spectrum in some 00:27:41.339 --> 00:27:44.440 way. I don't know the proper term for it. And, 00:27:44.539 --> 00:27:47.380 you know, I wasn't mean to him, but I didn't 00:27:47.380 --> 00:27:49.339 really go out of my way to be nice to him. And 00:27:49.339 --> 00:27:52.039 he was, we could be kind of a pain to the ushers 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:55.380 and made us do all the tough work. And another 00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:59.539 guy that I talked to, my friend Mark, who I interviewed 00:27:59.539 --> 00:28:01.480 for the book, I went back and talked to some 00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:02.839 of my friends and actually interviewed them. 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:06.319 He would say I would give him rides home at night. 00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:09.440 I thought, oh, my gosh. And I remember thinking 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:11.940 Mark was one of these very kind people who just 00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:16.140 was able to be kind and not worry about what 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:17.759 people thought if this guy was, you know, why 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.559 are you driving that guy home? You know, you're 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:23.180 this cool kid. What are you doing with this developmentally 00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:25.660 disabled older man, you know, in your car? That's 00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:27.990 not really cool. You should be doing this. And 00:28:27.990 --> 00:28:29.509 I thought those two things went together. So 00:28:29.509 --> 00:28:32.809 his ability to not care what people thought, 00:28:32.910 --> 00:28:36.769 as I saw it, enabled him to not care what people 00:28:36.769 --> 00:28:38.950 thought and be kind, you know, even when it may 00:28:38.950 --> 00:28:41.049 invite people to say that's not a cool thing 00:28:41.049 --> 00:28:44.230 to do. I could not do this. At that time, I was 00:28:44.230 --> 00:28:47.410 unable to say, I want to take this guy home who's 00:28:47.410 --> 00:28:51.509 so weird and strange and maybe be seen walking 00:28:51.509 --> 00:28:54.150 with him through the mall. Yeah, I mean, even 00:28:54.150 --> 00:28:57.130 like now, I'm just thinking, God, I would have 00:28:57.130 --> 00:28:59.089 never been able to do that. So those two things 00:28:59.089 --> 00:29:01.210 are connected, I think. And they're connected 00:29:01.210 --> 00:29:04.769 in Jesus, right? When people criticize him for 00:29:04.769 --> 00:29:08.029 being kind to people, he's fine. He doesn't care. 00:29:08.230 --> 00:29:11.029 He continues to do it. So being kind and I think 00:29:11.029 --> 00:29:13.109 being comfortable in your own skin and free of 00:29:13.109 --> 00:29:15.309 the need for people to like you, go hand in hand. 00:29:16.509 --> 00:29:19.970 Yeah, and your friend Brad was like that as well, 00:29:20.069 --> 00:29:23.539 correct? Yeah, yeah. You want to talk about him 00:29:23.539 --> 00:29:26.119 a little bit? Yeah, so that's an important part 00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.119 of the book. Thanks for bringing that up. And 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:32.259 it marks a shift in the book. One of the things 00:29:32.259 --> 00:29:35.279 I struggle with with this story is that, you 00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.920 know, I go from these kind of crazy summer jobs 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.759 to thinking more deeply about life. And a good 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:43.640 friend of mine died, was killed in an automobile 00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:48.660 accident when he was 20 or 21. It was 1981, so 00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:51.940 he was, I think, 20. And there's a shift in tone 00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:56.740 in the book. And he was my freshman year roommate 00:29:56.740 --> 00:29:59.980 at Penn, University of Pennsylvania. And he was 00:29:59.980 --> 00:30:02.660 this kind of free spirit. He was a poet, a wrestler, 00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:06.759 a film student. He was just kind of himself. 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:10.779 And I really looked up to him, even though we 00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:15.299 were peers. And he was one of the people that 00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:18.180 kind of encouraged me to just, in his own way, 00:30:18.220 --> 00:30:21.029 at age 17, just... You need to relax. Be yourself. 00:30:21.930 --> 00:30:26.369 There's a story I tell. We went, this is college, 00:30:26.630 --> 00:30:29.369 we were poor, and we went to get some free hors 00:30:29.369 --> 00:30:32.430 d 'oeuvres at a party, basically, at this place 00:30:32.430 --> 00:30:34.230 called International House at Penn, which is 00:30:34.230 --> 00:30:35.609 where all the international students stayed. 00:30:36.769 --> 00:30:39.529 And on the way back, it was pouring rain in Philadelphia. 00:30:39.529 --> 00:30:42.869 It was like September, pouring, pouring. And 00:30:42.869 --> 00:30:44.789 my shoes were completely wet. I hated getting 00:30:44.789 --> 00:30:47.390 wet. And he said, take your shoes off. Let's 00:30:47.390 --> 00:30:49.990 walk home barefoot. And I was just like, I'm 00:30:49.990 --> 00:30:51.450 not doing that. He was like, come on. He punched 00:30:51.450 --> 00:30:54.190 me in the arm a couple times, I remember. And 00:30:54.190 --> 00:30:56.250 we did. And I had a great time, and we were laughing 00:30:56.250 --> 00:30:58.289 when we got home. And I just thought, wow, this 00:30:58.289 --> 00:31:01.769 is pretty amazing. I can do something that seems 00:31:01.769 --> 00:31:05.930 strange to me or seems unusual and not worry 00:31:05.930 --> 00:31:09.710 about what people would think. So he was a real 00:31:09.710 --> 00:31:14.769 kind of a free spirit. Yeah. Yeah, those kinds 00:31:14.769 --> 00:31:18.509 of people in my life, they kind of... They help 00:31:18.509 --> 00:31:22.390 shake me from autopilot, you know, and even in 00:31:22.390 --> 00:31:26.630 a larger sense, they shake me out of the constructs 00:31:26.630 --> 00:31:29.329 that I've built for myself, thinking that, oh, 00:31:29.369 --> 00:31:31.609 this is what I must do. You know, like, well, 00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:33.690 I just did this in life, therefore I must do 00:31:33.690 --> 00:31:36.650 this. And those kinds of people are, I envy them 00:31:36.650 --> 00:31:41.220 in a lot of ways, but they're... They inspire 00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:43.680 me. Yeah, and I think college is a good time 00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:45.779 to run into people like that because they're 00:31:45.779 --> 00:31:48.160 from all different backgrounds. I grew up in 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:51.579 a fairly, I would say, middle class to working 00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:55.559 class area, middle class. And most of the people 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:59.660 were from the same economic background. They're 00:31:59.660 --> 00:32:02.160 middle class, white, suburban Philadelphia kids, 00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:06.640 right? And mostly white. And I went to Penn and 00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:07.799 there were people from all over the country, 00:32:07.859 --> 00:32:10.279 all over the world, from all different. ethnic 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:12.240 groups and all different religions and all different 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:16.579 economic uh you know groups so you were really 00:32:16.579 --> 00:32:20.079 kind of challenged uh you know verbally too like 00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:21.339 you know what do you mean by that or why are 00:32:21.339 --> 00:32:23.680 you doing that and i remember i say in the book 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.900 first time brad and i met i could still remember 00:32:26.900 --> 00:32:30.259 we had written to each other these days i'm sure 00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:32.740 there's all this like choosing and pairing all 00:32:32.740 --> 00:32:34.839 this kind of stuff and what do you like and what 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:36.640 you don't like well they just threw people together 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:40.839 back in 1978 no no personality test then no no 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:42.599 and we got we got i got a letter saying you're 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.579 rude i guess i can say his name your roommate 00:32:44.579 --> 00:32:47.559 will be bradford almeda from potomac maryland 00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:49.660 i was like okay so i wrote him a letter dear 00:32:49.660 --> 00:32:51.839 brad he wrote me a letter we didn't know each 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.319 other and the first day maybe the first week 00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:58.940 he said well what what did you do it in your 00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:02.119 high school And I said, well, I was student council 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:04.180 president. I was in the National Honor Society. 00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:10.099 I was in the yearbook. You're like, here's my 00:33:10.099 --> 00:33:13.920 resume. He said, oh, my God. He said, I'm rooming 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:18.500 with Archie Andrews. You know, Archie, the comic 00:33:18.500 --> 00:33:22.079 book character, which was kind of funny. So that's 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:26.319 the first time, you know, again, age 17, you 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:28.460 know, you're kind of being challenged, like, 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:32.819 loosen up a little bit. There's a lot of loosening 00:33:32.819 --> 00:33:36.259 up I talk about in college. Absolutely. Yeah, 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:38.480 and I appreciated your vulnerability and your 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:42.240 honesty. You had a great quote about friendship. 00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:47.019 You said, Are we ever fully aware how blessed 00:33:47.019 --> 00:33:51.000 we are by our friends? Yeah. What was it like? 00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.180 And I think at that time in our lives as teenagers 00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:57.000 stepping into young adulthood, we can kind of 00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:00.299 take that for granted, you know, and the people 00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:03.680 who formed us and continue to inform us today. 00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:06.440 Talk to me a little bit about friendship and 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:08.400 what you learned about friendship by going back 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.000 in time through writing this memoir. Thank you 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:12.800 for bringing that up. Actually, that came to 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:18.199 me in a reunion. And I think I looked at him. 00:34:18.699 --> 00:34:20.559 I was grateful for my friends. If you'd asked 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:22.460 me at 17, 18, are you grateful for your friends? 00:34:22.539 --> 00:34:24.860 I would say yes. Yeah, I am grateful for my friends. 00:34:25.579 --> 00:34:28.820 But strangely, this is an embarrassing admission. 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.400 I think it was more like to sort of like buoy 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.760 me up. Like I'm grateful for my friends because 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.380 I can say, look at all the friends I have. I'm 00:34:36.380 --> 00:34:40.489 so popular. People like me. I'm liked. I'm loved. 00:34:40.690 --> 00:34:44.889 I have this friend and that friend. And I went 00:34:44.889 --> 00:34:46.869 to a reunion. I guess it must have been, who 00:34:46.869 --> 00:34:49.690 knows what reunion it was in high school. And 00:34:49.690 --> 00:34:51.750 I met these, I'm in touch with most of these 00:34:51.750 --> 00:34:53.590 people, but some of them I'm not in touch with. 00:34:54.230 --> 00:34:56.210 And I met some of them and I just thought, my 00:34:56.210 --> 00:34:58.769 gosh, these are really, really kind people. And 00:34:58.769 --> 00:35:01.769 there was one guy named Steven who just is one 00:35:01.769 --> 00:35:04.570 of the kindest people, was kind now. I think 00:35:04.570 --> 00:35:07.320 he's a doctor now. And I just remember thinking, 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:10.360 you know, he's always been like this. He's always 00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:14.079 been kind. He's always been a sweet kid. Now 00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:17.480 he's a sweet guy, I would say. And I thought, 00:35:17.500 --> 00:35:20.059 I don't think I recognized that back then. I 00:35:20.059 --> 00:35:21.860 don't think I recognized that I had some very 00:35:21.860 --> 00:35:26.619 kind and sweet and generous and funny, supportive 00:35:26.619 --> 00:35:30.699 friends in junior high school and high school. 00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:33.239 So that's what I meant by that. Like, are we 00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.489 ever able to really appreciate them? And I would 00:35:36.489 --> 00:35:38.449 imagine when we get to heaven, you know, if we 00:35:38.449 --> 00:35:41.070 get to heaven, we hope, that we'll look back 00:35:41.070 --> 00:35:42.789 and maybe even meet them and say, gosh, thank 00:35:42.789 --> 00:35:47.050 you for being so kind and friendly. So that was 00:35:47.050 --> 00:35:49.610 one of the graces of the book, to look back and 00:35:49.610 --> 00:35:54.269 think about my friends and think about how kind 00:35:54.269 --> 00:35:58.230 they were to me, how accepting they were, how 00:35:58.230 --> 00:36:02.750 tolerant they were. You know, because I think 00:36:02.750 --> 00:36:04.329 that's part of being a good friend, being tolerant. 00:36:05.949 --> 00:36:11.809 Absolutely. Yeah. And that's another thing I 00:36:11.809 --> 00:36:14.590 love about memoir is that spiritual practice, 00:36:14.710 --> 00:36:17.650 even if you approach it that way, where is you 00:36:17.650 --> 00:36:20.190 go back into these different scenes of your life 00:36:20.190 --> 00:36:22.769 and all these scenes belong in the story, you 00:36:22.769 --> 00:36:26.269 know, even the ones that are kind of that you 00:36:26.269 --> 00:36:28.289 write and you're like, oh, man, I wish I wouldn't 00:36:28.289 --> 00:36:32.519 have done that. Well, I'll tell you. First of 00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:34.099 all, thank you for reading the book so closely. 00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:36.400 I don't normally get interviewed by people who 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:41.019 read the book so closely. But yeah, I think it's 00:36:41.019 --> 00:36:44.579 part of, you know, we Jesuits talk about the 00:36:44.579 --> 00:36:46.500 examination of conscience, which is going back 00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:49.199 over the day and seeing where God is. I think 00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:52.940 looking at the granularity of your life is really 00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:55.480 helpful too. And if we can look back and say, 00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:58.119 yeah, that God was really there. God was there 00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:00.659 with these teachers of this. person or my parent 00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:05.079 or my sister, it's, it's, it's a, it's a blessing 00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:06.940 to be able to do that. It's a grace to be able 00:37:06.940 --> 00:37:10.719 to do that. Yeah. Yeah. It develops a real sense 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:14.679 of gratitude to go back and, you know, these 00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:18.219 in, and again, like your, your book got me thinking 00:37:18.219 --> 00:37:20.679 about my own friends, even some from high school 00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:23.829 college who haven't talked to in years, but just 00:37:23.829 --> 00:37:26.949 that gratitude of, oh, my gosh, I can't believe 00:37:26.949 --> 00:37:30.329 that I got to room with that person. I can't 00:37:30.329 --> 00:37:33.170 believe I got to have this stupid, ridiculous 00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:37.010 night with that person. And that gratitude, I 00:37:37.010 --> 00:37:39.570 think, is so important because that informs your 00:37:39.570 --> 00:37:42.789 own lens, perspective on your life in the present, 00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:45.230 too. Well, yeah, and I'll tell you a funny story. 00:37:45.329 --> 00:37:48.989 So one of the – I can say this because it's in 00:37:48.989 --> 00:37:52.570 the book. drink a lot when I was in college and 00:37:52.570 --> 00:37:57.250 get high and whatnot. And I had some real escapades. 00:37:57.289 --> 00:37:59.510 And one of the escapades was on a birthday night 00:37:59.510 --> 00:38:02.429 that I talk about, which was quite something. 00:38:02.670 --> 00:38:05.369 And I actually cut out a couple other escapades 00:38:05.369 --> 00:38:07.469 because I thought maybe one is enough. I don't 00:38:07.469 --> 00:38:10.610 want to scandalize too many people. And when 00:38:10.610 --> 00:38:13.170 I was writing it, I'm in touch with all these 00:38:13.170 --> 00:38:15.510 people, three or four people that were part of 00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:18.489 this escapade, which included getting drunk and 00:38:18.489 --> 00:38:22.679 coming back home. all sorts of things. And I 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:25.199 may be avoiding talking about it right now. And 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:28.760 I called them and I talked to each of them about 00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:30.780 their memory of it. And it was hysterical. We 00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:33.039 were just laughing about it. And they said to 00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:35.239 me, boy, you remember, you remember this more 00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:37.900 than we do. But it was fun to kind of reconnect 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:43.179 and, and just have fun, you know, revisiting 00:38:43.179 --> 00:38:45.199 those things. And I think that's, that's a real 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:48.829 grace of getting older. I'm 65 now. And to be 00:38:48.829 --> 00:38:50.110 able to look back at these things that happened, 00:38:50.250 --> 00:38:52.690 you know, when I was like 40, 50 years ago and 00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:56.769 still remember these things. Yeah. And that's 00:38:56.769 --> 00:39:00.829 one of the real gifts, I think, of friendship. 00:39:00.909 --> 00:39:03.809 And you mentioned it earlier is that the good 00:39:03.809 --> 00:39:09.139 friends in my life, they create. even unintentionally, 00:39:09.139 --> 00:39:12.480 they create the space for me to be myself. And 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:15.219 hopefully I do that for them too. So that's a 00:39:15.219 --> 00:39:17.840 theme as well that has come up in this conversation 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:21.500 and throughout the book too, is being yourself, 00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:26.400 being who God has made you to be. And I was curious, 00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:31.760 what does it look like to be yourself? Well, 00:39:31.820 --> 00:39:34.360 now it means to be a good Jesuit. That's myself. 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:38.260 i i'm glad you brought that up that is a thomas 00:39:38.260 --> 00:39:40.559 merton theme i don't think he invented it but 00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:43.519 the true self and the false self and one of the 00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:45.420 themes of the book of work in progress which 00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:47.119 is one of the reasons i call it work in progress 00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:51.360 is that it's about becoming yourself knowing 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:55.320 who you are understanding what you want uh i 00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:59.559 i was a very i guess i could say ambitious kid 00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:02.320 who wanted to be rich that was a big thing i'd 00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:04.440 be rich Because we weren't rich. And I thought, 00:40:04.460 --> 00:40:06.039 boy, being rich must be the best thing ever. 00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:07.940 You can do whatever you want and buy everything. 00:40:08.860 --> 00:40:13.460 But I find out that I was in the corporate world 00:40:13.460 --> 00:40:15.519 for a while. And business is a real vocation 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:17.679 for a lot of people. But it wasn't for me. And 00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:20.219 I had to find out who that person was. And I 00:40:20.219 --> 00:40:22.039 don't think, as I say in the book, there weren't 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:24.179 too many people asking those kinds of questions. 00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:29.780 Yeah, yeah. You mentioned, here's another quote, 00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:34.340 you wish that... Every adolescent could be asked 00:40:34.340 --> 00:40:38.719 the question, what was it? What do you... What 00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:40.300 would you do if you could do anything you wanted 00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:43.300 to do? Yes. Yeah, exactly. Why is that such an 00:40:43.300 --> 00:40:45.699 important question for each of us to ask? Yeah, 00:40:45.699 --> 00:40:49.539 because it allows us to dream and it allows us 00:40:49.539 --> 00:40:51.420 to say, even if it's something that you can't 00:40:51.420 --> 00:40:54.099 do, even if you say, what I would do if I could 00:40:54.099 --> 00:40:55.599 do it. I mean, now people might say, I want to 00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:58.510 go to a... you know, the beach and walking on 00:40:58.510 --> 00:41:00.269 the beach. But, you know, even that's kind of 00:41:00.269 --> 00:41:03.489 revelatory. But if you say, I would like to be 00:41:03.489 --> 00:41:07.289 a podcaster, or I would like to be a writer, 00:41:07.349 --> 00:41:09.929 or I'd love to be someone who works in the arts, 00:41:10.010 --> 00:41:12.530 all right? You know, like, what would you like 00:41:12.530 --> 00:41:15.909 to do? Who would you like to be? Because it helps 00:41:15.909 --> 00:41:17.690 you to dream, and you have to say to yourself, 00:41:17.829 --> 00:41:19.769 well, where are those desires coming from? And 00:41:19.769 --> 00:41:21.769 maybe you could move closer to those kinds of 00:41:21.769 --> 00:41:23.369 things. And that's what someone did to me. They 00:41:23.369 --> 00:41:26.190 asked me that question. Because no one had really 00:41:26.190 --> 00:41:28.690 asked me, what do you want to do? It was more 00:41:28.690 --> 00:41:32.050 like, here's what you have to do. Yes. Not in 00:41:32.050 --> 00:41:34.269 a mean way. I mean, my parents were good people. 00:41:34.309 --> 00:41:38.070 And my dad died about 20 years ago. But it wasn't 00:41:38.070 --> 00:41:40.449 like they were super materialistic. But it was 00:41:40.449 --> 00:41:42.230 like, look, you got to get a job. What are you 00:41:42.230 --> 00:41:44.469 going to do? And OK, well, I'll study business. 00:41:44.610 --> 00:41:50.110 Good idea. Versus what do you really love? And 00:41:50.110 --> 00:41:52.489 who do you want to become? And who's God calling 00:41:52.489 --> 00:41:55.070 you to be? So these are really important questions 00:41:55.070 --> 00:41:57.210 to understand our desires, as Ignatius would 00:41:57.210 --> 00:42:04.030 say. Exactly. That's the word desire. Even like 00:42:04.030 --> 00:42:06.809 the example you gave about, well, I want to walk 00:42:06.809 --> 00:42:09.789 on the beach all the time. Even something like 00:42:09.789 --> 00:42:13.170 that says something about you and may say something 00:42:13.170 --> 00:42:15.670 about your desire. Do you want to go a little 00:42:15.670 --> 00:42:20.819 bit deeper into the importance of... discovering 00:42:20.819 --> 00:42:25.159 and almost mining our desires. Yeah, so, you 00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:27.159 know, we just would say, pray to understand your 00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:30.320 deepest desires, because God's desires are your 00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:32.039 deepest desires. Now, what does that mean? That 00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:35.780 means that God plants in us these desires to 00:42:35.780 --> 00:42:38.820 be, let's say, well, I mean, at the most basic 00:42:38.820 --> 00:42:41.420 level, to fall in love. You know, a man and a 00:42:41.420 --> 00:42:44.440 woman fall in love, they sort of discover who 00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:46.940 they are, they come together, you know, they 00:42:46.940 --> 00:42:49.360 create a family, something like that. And that's 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.900 through desire. On a kind of vocation or career 00:42:52.900 --> 00:42:55.260 level, you could say a person's really interested 00:42:55.260 --> 00:42:59.320 in biology and desires to help people physically. 00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:01.460 And so they want to be a doctor. So that's how 00:43:01.460 --> 00:43:04.159 God kind of awakens our vocations. But we have 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:06.719 to really pray about what do we really desire? 00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:09.340 What is it that gets us up in the morning? What 00:43:09.340 --> 00:43:12.039 appeals to us? What attracts us? And this is 00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:14.699 one way we have of understanding our vocations. 00:43:14.699 --> 00:43:17.219 I think people tend to think vocation is this. 00:43:17.659 --> 00:43:20.500 sort of quasi -mystical thing. Like you have 00:43:20.500 --> 00:43:23.059 this vision or this dream, or maybe you can in 00:43:23.059 --> 00:43:24.940 some places, but usually it's just something 00:43:24.940 --> 00:43:28.159 simple. It's your desire. But you have to really 00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:31.400 mind that. It's a good word. And you have to 00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:33.260 get to the bottom of it because often it's covered 00:43:33.260 --> 00:43:38.400 up by so many shoulds and expectations and societal 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:42.280 pressures that prevent you from saying, this 00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:44.300 is what I really want. No, I don't want to do 00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:46.159 that. Even though everybody seems to think I 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:48.500 should do it, I want to do this. And not in a 00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:51.940 selfish way, but who are you meant to be? And 00:43:51.940 --> 00:43:54.099 so I think understanding your desires is super 00:43:54.099 --> 00:44:01.400 important. Now for another minute meditation. 00:44:03.300 --> 00:44:06.800 Years ago, I got really into the Enneagram. And 00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:09.000 one of the things that a number of Enneagram 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.880 teachers talk about is your childhood wound. 00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:15.619 how it not only has a unique role in forming 00:44:15.619 --> 00:44:18.699 your personality, but may also help point you 00:44:18.699 --> 00:44:21.380 toward patterns in your life and underlying desires 00:44:21.380 --> 00:44:25.739 that are there for you to discover. Desire, that 00:44:25.739 --> 00:44:28.380 is a topic that comes up a lot in this podcast, 00:44:28.420 --> 00:44:31.579 and Father Jim returned to this vocational question 00:44:31.579 --> 00:44:34.519 several times throughout his book, quote, what 00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:37.699 would you do if you could do anything you wanted 00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:41.630 to do? Another way to say it, What leads you 00:44:41.630 --> 00:44:45.369 to sacrifice and wholeheartedness? For the last 00:44:45.369 --> 00:44:48.789 memoir that I wrote, a jazz saxophonist I interviewed 00:44:48.789 --> 00:44:53.030 put it this way, music pulls me deeper into being. 00:44:53.269 --> 00:44:56.170 I think that's a beautiful way to put it. What 00:44:56.170 --> 00:44:59.809 pulls you deeper into being? It's kind of reflective 00:44:59.809 --> 00:45:03.889 of Father Jim's question as well. And of course, 00:45:03.889 --> 00:45:06.550 this requires some digging in order to uncover 00:45:06.550 --> 00:45:09.889 the deepest yearnings of one's heart. You know, 00:45:09.909 --> 00:45:12.389 maybe someone's desire for wealth on the surface 00:45:12.389 --> 00:45:16.429 is actually a deeper desire for security. Maybe 00:45:16.429 --> 00:45:19.829 a desire for fame is actually the desire to be 00:45:19.829 --> 00:45:23.070 known and valued for who they are. And maybe 00:45:23.070 --> 00:45:26.170 someone's desire for a partner or spouse is a 00:45:26.170 --> 00:45:28.610 deeper desire for connection and acceptance. 00:45:29.429 --> 00:45:32.429 All of these things are there for us to discover 00:45:32.429 --> 00:45:35.909 within ourselves, I think. So I'll close with 00:45:35.909 --> 00:45:38.190 this line from another great memoirist, Elizabeth 00:45:38.190 --> 00:45:40.690 Gilbert. And this is a quote that I've shared 00:45:40.690 --> 00:45:42.949 with every girls golf team I've coached. She 00:45:42.949 --> 00:45:46.789 writes, I happen to believe that we are all walking 00:45:46.789 --> 00:45:50.809 repositories of buried treasure. I'll say that 00:45:50.809 --> 00:45:54.590 again. I happen to believe we are all walking 00:45:54.590 --> 00:45:58.690 repositories of buried treasure. And the joy 00:45:58.690 --> 00:46:01.789 of life, I'd add, is discovering that treasure 00:46:01.789 --> 00:46:05.760 alongside our family. and our friends, and our 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:15.699 loved ones. Now back to the conversation. Yeah, 00:46:15.739 --> 00:46:20.500 I loved the ending to the book because After 00:46:20.500 --> 00:46:23.880 all these summer jobs, and I love at the end 00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:26.300 of each chapter, you're like, I didn't really 00:46:26.300 --> 00:46:29.219 like being outside. I'm going to try to work 00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:31.679 inside next summer. And then after working inside, 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:33.500 you're like, I didn't really like working inside. 00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.099 I'm going to try to work outside next summer. 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:38.679 And after all this from thing to thing to thing, 00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:43.460 never really content, it lands with you. finding 00:46:43.460 --> 00:46:45.719 landing in your vocation as a Jesuit priest. 00:46:45.940 --> 00:46:49.380 What was it like for you to, maybe for lack of 00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:53.380 a better term, settle in and commit to something? 00:46:53.699 --> 00:46:57.800 And was that difficult after this kind of up 00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:00.780 and down, kind of back and forth journey? No, 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:03.139 it's funny. It wasn't because I was so grateful. 00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:06.980 It was such a relief. And I had been going a 00:47:06.980 --> 00:47:09.199 mile a minute and it was kind of going from 100 00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:12.489 to... 25 miles an hour because you you know i 00:47:12.489 --> 00:47:15.889 was going so fast at ge and the fast track and 00:47:15.889 --> 00:47:20.210 working 24 7 almost weekends and being stressed 00:47:20.210 --> 00:47:23.289 to you stop you get into the division it's like 00:47:23.289 --> 00:47:28.309 okay now hour to a prayer day mass it's like 00:47:28.309 --> 00:47:31.190 wow this is fantastic i mean it felt like a little 00:47:31.190 --> 00:47:33.469 like a vacation of course jesuits work hard and 00:47:33.469 --> 00:47:36.550 now i work probably too hard but it was a great 00:47:37.319 --> 00:47:40.219 slowing down. And so not, no, I didn't find it 00:47:40.219 --> 00:47:42.460 hard at all. I found it amazing. And I thought, 00:47:42.500 --> 00:47:44.880 why don't more people do this? Life in a religious 00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:47.460 order and community and cooking for one another 00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:49.400 and helping the poor. And it was so purposeful 00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:51.920 and so meaningful and learning about God and 00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:54.719 praying. Oh, it was, I mean, the hard part came 00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:00.300 before. But yeah, so, and I, you know, as they 00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:02.079 say, God writes straight with crooked lines. 00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:04.719 I was amazed I ended up there. And all my friends, 00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:08.699 pretty much every single one, except one or two 00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:15.699 were kind of horrified horrified well um what 00:48:15.699 --> 00:48:18.199 do you think you know we talked about brad this 00:48:18.199 --> 00:48:21.519 free spirit who you know kind of shakes you from 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:24.139 your constructs and like gets you to hey let's 00:48:24.139 --> 00:48:27.579 walk back barefoot um what do you think he and 00:48:27.579 --> 00:48:30.400 of course as you mentioned he tragically died 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:34.380 way too young. What do you think he would say 00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:38.599 to you today about becoming a Jesuit priest? 00:48:39.380 --> 00:48:41.460 That's pretty funny. I never thought of that. 00:48:41.980 --> 00:48:44.460 I'm laughing because he would say, Martin, what 00:48:44.460 --> 00:48:52.360 are you doing? What a great question. I don't 00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:55.469 think we ever talked about religion. What would 00:48:55.469 --> 00:48:58.889 Brad say? Brad would probably just laugh, shake 00:48:58.889 --> 00:49:00.710 his head. I would think he'd do what my other 00:49:00.710 --> 00:49:03.150 friends did, which is just kind of shake their 00:49:03.150 --> 00:49:04.809 heads. And now they're used to it. My other friends 00:49:04.809 --> 00:49:08.389 from Penn are all used to it. Here's a story 00:49:08.389 --> 00:49:10.670 I didn't tell in the book because it was kind 00:49:10.670 --> 00:49:13.329 of long. I told it in my other book, In Good 00:49:13.329 --> 00:49:18.989 Company. I took my friends out, let's see, Andy 00:49:18.989 --> 00:49:21.630 and Andy and Rob, these three friends, to New 00:49:21.630 --> 00:49:25.019 York, in New York. In 1988, before I was going 00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:28.219 to join the Jazz, was to tell them. And I said, 00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:31.599 I have some news. It was a little dramatic. I 00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:33.159 said, I got this big news I want to share. I 00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:35.019 know the restaurant, too. It's right down the 00:49:35.019 --> 00:49:37.960 street. And I said, I got some news to share. 00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:41.760 And they said, we're going to guess. It's like 00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:45.480 real college friends. Let us guess. You're leaving 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:48.820 GE. And I said, that's the easy part. Now I got 00:49:48.820 --> 00:49:52.079 to figure out what I'm doing. You're going to 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:53.599 go back to school. You're going to be a lawyer. 00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:55.199 You're going to be the, he kept doing all this 00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:59.679 stuff. So I said, no, these are three Jewish 00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:03.280 friends of mine. I said, no, I'm going to be 00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:05.659 a priest. I'm going to be a Jesuit priest. And 00:50:05.659 --> 00:50:07.679 so at that moment, true story, the waiter comes 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:12.920 over and says, do you need more time? And my 00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:19.929 friend Andy goes, we need a lot more time. My 00:50:19.929 --> 00:50:22.110 friend Andy, one of my – there are two Andys 00:50:22.110 --> 00:50:25.150 in this story. One of my friends, Andy, went 00:50:25.150 --> 00:50:29.130 home and looked up what Jesuit meant in the dictionary. 00:50:30.010 --> 00:50:32.949 My friends didn't know that. I barely know that. 00:50:32.989 --> 00:50:35.170 And, of course, they find Jesuitical dissembling, 00:50:35.170 --> 00:50:39.929 evil, kind of deceitful. And he calls me. He's 00:50:39.929 --> 00:50:42.050 like, you want to be that? It was just so funny. 00:50:43.710 --> 00:50:46.309 Yeah, so that's probably what Brad would have 00:50:46.309 --> 00:50:47.590 said. He would have probably just shaken his 00:50:47.590 --> 00:50:54.190 head. Do you think that there'd be a sense of 00:50:54.190 --> 00:50:59.769 pride for you stepping into, hey, I am being 00:50:59.769 --> 00:51:03.550 a free spirit in a sense, like getting off this 00:51:03.550 --> 00:51:06.369 linear path that I was on, getting off of doing 00:51:06.369 --> 00:51:08.949 everything that I thought I was supposed to do 00:51:08.949 --> 00:51:12.230 and now doing something that I feel called to 00:51:12.230 --> 00:51:14.800 do? Yeah, that's very moving to hear, actually. 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:16.519 I never thought about that. That's quite moving 00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:18.559 to hear. What would Brad think, and would he 00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:21.420 be proud of me? I think, yeah, I think he probably 00:51:21.420 --> 00:51:23.380 would. I think because he was kind of a free 00:51:23.380 --> 00:51:25.699 spirit. That's quite moving to think about, and 00:51:25.699 --> 00:51:28.559 maybe he'll tell me in heaven. You know, Brad, 00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:36.599 so he died in 1981, and he told me he was a film 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:38.539 major at the Annenberg School of Communications 00:51:38.539 --> 00:51:42.969 at Penn. And he told me many times, so we entered, 00:51:43.150 --> 00:51:49.190 we started at Penn in 1978. He told me that he 00:51:49.190 --> 00:51:52.090 wanted to go into film and music and combine 00:51:52.090 --> 00:51:54.929 them. And I remember thinking, truly, I remember 00:51:54.929 --> 00:51:58.030 thinking, what are you talking about? Yeah. Filming 00:51:58.030 --> 00:52:00.110 me, what? What are you going to do? You're going 00:52:00.110 --> 00:52:01.829 to make like a what? Like a film with music? 00:52:02.250 --> 00:52:05.849 Well, the year after he died, MTV started. Yeah. 00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:08.099 you know, music videos. That's just what he wanted 00:52:08.099 --> 00:52:12.539 to do. And so he was in his own way, very, you 00:52:12.539 --> 00:52:15.159 know, as much as you can be at 17, 18, very kind 00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.800 of creative. So I think he'd be proud of me. 00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:19.639 I hope he'd be proud of me. I guess we'll find 00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:21.500 out and I'll find out in heaven, but he'll probably, 00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.599 you'll probably just laugh. Yeah. And it is ironic. 00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:29.320 Now here you are working in media. Yeah. No. 00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:32.099 And, and, you know, and it's, it's also ironic 00:52:32.099 --> 00:52:36.699 and kind of, I don't want to put too much emphasis 00:52:36.699 --> 00:52:41.300 on it, but MTV just stopped a couple months ago. 00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:45.659 And that to me was a kind of moving thing. It 00:52:45.659 --> 00:52:48.239 started right after he died. It stops right as 00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:51.460 this book is coming out. And there was a sense 00:52:51.460 --> 00:52:55.719 that Brad would have probably been some big MTV 00:52:55.719 --> 00:53:03.840 guru or director or so anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:08.260 know you have a hard stop at 10 .30, so was there 00:53:08.260 --> 00:53:10.340 anything I left out? Anything you'd like to hit 00:53:10.340 --> 00:53:18.440 on? What was your favorite part of the book? 00:53:18.500 --> 00:53:24.079 I'm curious. Man, I hit on it earlier, but I 00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:29.920 think it was the relatability. There were some 00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:32.769 great scenes, but... I'm always kind of more 00:53:32.769 --> 00:53:37.130 of like a themes guy and the relatability of 00:53:37.130 --> 00:53:42.449 being an adolescent and stepping in like a recurring 00:53:42.449 --> 00:53:46.230 dream that I have very strange. It's always going 00:53:46.230 --> 00:53:50.570 back to the golf course that I worked at in high 00:53:50.570 --> 00:53:53.289 school and college. You know, I mean, I, I probably 00:53:53.289 --> 00:53:55.530 have the dream every couple of months and it's, 00:53:55.530 --> 00:54:00.190 and it's a pleasant dream. It's, That is a formative 00:54:00.190 --> 00:54:02.710 time for each of us where you're stepping into 00:54:02.710 --> 00:54:06.389 the workforce and you're working with adults 00:54:06.389 --> 00:54:09.349 and like your world is kind of expanding and 00:54:09.349 --> 00:54:11.329 they're saying things you've never heard before. 00:54:11.389 --> 00:54:14.630 And then the insecurity of doing something new, 00:54:14.730 --> 00:54:17.110 like, oh, I don't want to mess up this or I'm 00:54:17.110 --> 00:54:19.610 very hard on myself. So that was relatable throughout, 00:54:19.769 --> 00:54:22.690 like really wanting to make people happy. And 00:54:22.690 --> 00:54:27.480 yeah, I think those inner dimensions that. were 00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:30.980 beneath the funny scenes or sometimes humiliating 00:54:30.980 --> 00:54:34.119 scenes, they're really relatable to me. Like 00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:36.679 I said earlier, it made me feel less alone. Well, 00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:40.900 thank you. Yeah. Were you a caddy? I was not. 00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:44.519 I worked in the pro shop. Okay. But you know, 00:54:44.579 --> 00:54:46.559 that's another thing too, is that I coach high 00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:51.579 school golf now. So your book also helped take 00:54:51.579 --> 00:54:54.639 me kind of back in time into my own life, but 00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:59.480 also to develop to remind me of how important 00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:02.519 it is to have empathy for these kids who I coach, 00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:05.579 because that's such a confusing time for them. 00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:07.780 Yeah. And one of the things I talk about in the, 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:10.500 I mean, the caddy chapter is, I think one of 00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:13.079 my favorites, just because it's so many crazy 00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:16.360 stories. And, you know, for the most part, people 00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:20.320 treated me okay, not great, but okay. And I mean, 00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:23.440 the golfers, right, the customers or whatever 00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:24.929 you want to call them. I don't know what we called 00:55:24.929 --> 00:55:27.090 them back then, but the people that were, you 00:55:27.090 --> 00:55:30.170 know, whose bags I was carrying. But from time 00:55:30.170 --> 00:55:33.489 to time, people were pretty mean and were pretty 00:55:33.489 --> 00:55:36.630 just, you know, they treated you like a servant. 00:55:37.550 --> 00:55:40.610 And I remember thinking, again, I'll never treat 00:55:40.610 --> 00:55:44.389 people like this. Also, I tell some stories about, 00:55:44.449 --> 00:55:48.210 you know, golfers that one of the reasons that 00:55:48.210 --> 00:55:51.170 I got turned off to golf, I hope I'm not upsetting 00:55:51.170 --> 00:55:53.980 or insulting any golfers, was So many of the 00:55:53.980 --> 00:55:57.280 golfers that I caddied for were really angry. 00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.380 They were mad about their game and they were 00:56:00.380 --> 00:56:02.860 ticked off about slicing or hooking or whatever 00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:07.159 it was. And I remember thinking, boy, this game 00:56:07.159 --> 00:56:12.599 seems so miserable. So I'm sure it's not. I had 00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:16.280 my cousin who was one of the golf pros. uh, was 00:56:16.280 --> 00:56:19.039 love, love cat. My cousin, Tommy love catting. 00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:21.340 But I remember thinking, boy, if this is what 00:56:21.340 --> 00:56:24.480 golfing is like, people just get mad and saying 00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:27.260 the F word all the time. And damn it. I, I swear 00:56:27.260 --> 00:56:28.920 they must've said, damn it. You know, like every, 00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:32.440 every 10 steps, damn it. Yeah, I know. It is 00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:35.639 not one of my favorite golf psychology books 00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:38.280 is, uh, it's called golf is not a game of perfect. 00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:41.710 Um, and of course that, um, lessons from that 00:56:41.710 --> 00:56:43.989 could probably go into, you know, you hit on 00:56:43.989 --> 00:56:46.130 those in your memoir. And then for each of us 00:56:46.130 --> 00:56:49.469 too, it's like, why do I keep expecting things 00:56:49.469 --> 00:56:53.010 in my life to unfold perfectly? You know, like 00:56:53.010 --> 00:56:56.449 golf is inherently imperfect. And so is life. 00:56:57.050 --> 00:57:00.190 Well, and also I noticed, I said this in the 00:57:00.190 --> 00:57:01.989 book and I hope it doesn't sound sexist, but 00:57:01.989 --> 00:57:05.730 I noticed that the women seem to have a more 00:57:05.730 --> 00:57:07.469 enjoyable time on the golf course than the men. 00:57:07.530 --> 00:57:09.030 I don't know if that's your experience because 00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:12.500 With the men, they were often golfing with their 00:57:12.500 --> 00:57:14.579 business partners or some client or something 00:57:14.579 --> 00:57:18.039 or someone from this organization. And so they 00:57:18.039 --> 00:57:20.880 were also doing business and they were trying 00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:23.539 to impress sometimes. I know they were trying 00:57:23.539 --> 00:57:25.980 to impress because they would make a big flourish 00:57:25.980 --> 00:57:29.059 of giving me a big tip. They'd say in front of 00:57:29.059 --> 00:57:32.199 the other guy, like, here's $5 caddy or whatever, 00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.340 $10, whatever it was. I don't think it was $10. 00:57:35.769 --> 00:57:37.889 The women just seemed to kind of enjoy it more. 00:57:38.010 --> 00:57:40.730 So I actually liked caddying for the women, even 00:57:40.730 --> 00:57:43.010 though the other male caddies didn't like that 00:57:43.010 --> 00:57:46.969 because they wanted to caddy for the men. I preferred 00:57:46.969 --> 00:57:49.469 the women because they were more relaxed, in 00:57:49.469 --> 00:57:54.010 my estimation. Yeah. Yeah, well, it goes back 00:57:54.010 --> 00:57:57.030 to what you said. All these experiences teach 00:57:57.030 --> 00:58:00.889 you a lot about the way the world works or the 00:58:00.889 --> 00:58:05.510 way people think the world should work. You know, 00:58:05.570 --> 00:58:11.530 and you hit on this again and again, like, what 00:58:11.530 --> 00:58:15.989 does this teach me about being kind? And you 00:58:15.989 --> 00:58:18.949 said at one point, you don't need a PhD to be 00:58:18.949 --> 00:58:21.889 kind. So maybe we can land this here. And this 00:58:21.889 --> 00:58:24.250 is the last title of the last chapter in your 00:58:24.250 --> 00:58:27.570 book. Open -ended question. How did working at 00:58:27.570 --> 00:58:31.940 the Ice Cream Inn prepare you for life? Well, 00:58:31.940 --> 00:58:34.239 and that's for people that haven't read the book. 00:58:34.300 --> 00:58:37.300 That's the first chapter. It's not hard to figure 00:58:37.300 --> 00:58:39.340 out what the ice cream is served. I was a busboy 00:58:39.340 --> 00:58:42.719 and a dishwasher at age 15. It taught me a couple 00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:44.800 things. It taught me how to work hard, number 00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:47.460 one. That's important. It taught me to be on 00:58:47.460 --> 00:58:50.760 time. It taught me to ask when I don't know things, 00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:53.440 like how do you load this dishwasher? How do 00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:55.000 you set a table? I didn't know how to do that. 00:58:55.559 --> 00:59:00.929 It taught me to... apologize when I needed to, 00:59:01.010 --> 00:59:04.250 but not reflexively, not apologize just to get 00:59:04.250 --> 00:59:06.730 people to like you. I'm sorry. That was a habit 00:59:06.730 --> 00:59:09.929 of mine. And probably most of all, it taught 00:59:09.929 --> 00:59:12.489 me not to be mean because there's an incident 00:59:12.489 --> 00:59:14.929 in there where I screw up pretty royally, as 00:59:14.929 --> 00:59:18.250 we used to say. But I'm really treated poorly 00:59:18.250 --> 00:59:21.230 by this customer who just comes back and just 00:59:21.230 --> 00:59:24.699 screams at me. And so be kind. I mean, really, 00:59:24.739 --> 00:59:27.320 that's kind of the theme of the book. In addition 00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:30.019 to it being a vocation story, be kind. Be kind 00:59:30.019 --> 00:59:32.820 to people, particularly people who don't have 00:59:32.820 --> 00:59:37.300 as much seeming power as you do. You know, younger 00:59:37.300 --> 00:59:40.980 or they're in a service job or they're. Yeah. 00:59:41.099 --> 00:59:43.639 So and, you know, I say in the book, I'm almost 00:59:43.639 --> 00:59:45.679 physically allergic when I see stuff like that. 00:59:46.860 --> 00:59:50.400 You experienced it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just 00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:54.820 it's just so easy to be. Nice to people. It's 00:59:54.820 --> 00:59:57.019 easy to be mean to people, but it's better to 00:59:57.019 --> 01:00:04.599 be nice to people. In this final minute meditation, 01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:07.920 I wanted to talk about kindness, which is a huge 01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:11.380 theme that rises up again and again throughout 01:00:11.380 --> 01:00:16.349 Father Jim's book. Last year, I had a series 01:00:16.349 --> 01:00:19.750 of situations where, you know, frankly, just 01:00:19.750 --> 01:00:22.929 back to back to back, it just kind of felt like 01:00:22.929 --> 01:00:26.110 I was striking out. I was leaving it all out 01:00:26.110 --> 01:00:29.210 there, but walking away with nothing but frustration 01:00:29.210 --> 01:00:32.449 and pain and kind of complicated emotions. And 01:00:32.449 --> 01:00:35.809 one day I was driving home, wrestling with all 01:00:35.809 --> 01:00:39.480 of this. I suddenly felt as if my mother was 01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:42.940 smiling down on me from heaven. My mom was known 01:00:42.940 --> 01:00:45.739 at her parish and by her family and friends as 01:00:45.739 --> 01:00:49.460 someone who was just incredibly thoughtful and 01:00:49.460 --> 01:00:52.250 kind. always going out of her way to make someone 01:00:52.250 --> 01:00:55.269 else feel better. She passed away suddenly five 01:00:55.269 --> 01:00:57.369 years ago. I'm sure you've heard me talk about 01:00:57.369 --> 01:01:00.750 her on the podcast before, but I felt her mysterious 01:01:00.750 --> 01:01:03.849 kind of presence there as I drove home, as I 01:01:03.849 --> 01:01:07.809 felt broken and frustrated and just kind of overwhelmed. 01:01:08.489 --> 01:01:13.650 And I felt, this sounds weird to say, but her 01:01:13.650 --> 01:01:19.159 presence gave me a feeling that she was really, 01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:22.880 really proud of me because through all these 01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:26.739 different situations, there was something I could 01:01:26.739 --> 01:01:28.800 come back to. And that was the fact that I had 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:32.420 been honest through it all, wholehearted through 01:01:32.420 --> 01:01:37.639 it all, and kind through it all. And of course, 01:01:37.639 --> 01:01:40.519 I wanted something to show from all my efforts, 01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:43.920 but it was as if she was reminding me there that 01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:47.260 the most important things in life were deeper 01:01:47.260 --> 01:01:50.059 than that. And I felt like she was saying to 01:01:50.059 --> 01:01:52.860 me, keep bringing the fullness of your heart 01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:56.840 into every situation, Stephen. Keep being relentlessly 01:01:56.840 --> 01:02:02.719 kind and the rest will take care of itself. Now 01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:11.619 back to the conversation. Yeah, I'm a huge Kurt 01:02:11.619 --> 01:02:14.559 Vonnegut fan. One of my favorite quotes of his, 01:02:14.579 --> 01:02:17.500 it's in God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater and Elliot 01:02:17.500 --> 01:02:20.420 Rosewater, this kind of savior figure protagonist. 01:02:20.619 --> 01:02:23.599 He's baptizing a bunch of babies at once, which 01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:25.960 is just absurd and so Vonnegut. But he says, 01:02:26.099 --> 01:02:28.760 hey, babies, welcome to Earth. You know, it's 01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:30.599 cold in the winter and it's hot in the summer. 01:02:30.739 --> 01:02:33.280 By my estimate, you probably have about 100 years 01:02:33.280 --> 01:02:35.679 here. There's only one rule I know of, babies. 01:02:35.980 --> 01:02:38.820 Gosh dang it, you have to be kind. That's great. 01:02:39.059 --> 01:02:43.250 That's great. Yeah. And I think you said at the 01:02:43.250 --> 01:02:46.650 end that that's probably 90 % of being a Christian 01:02:46.650 --> 01:02:48.869 is being kind. I think it is. And, you know, 01:02:48.889 --> 01:02:50.929 people dismiss that and they say, oh, being Christian 01:02:50.929 --> 01:02:54.909 is more about things than just being nice, which 01:02:54.909 --> 01:02:58.369 is true. I mean, it's really sort of active service. 01:02:58.409 --> 01:03:00.289 It's reaching out to people who are in difficult 01:03:00.289 --> 01:03:02.989 situations. So it's not just being nice. But 01:03:02.989 --> 01:03:05.309 that's a lot of it. A lot of it is being kind 01:03:05.309 --> 01:03:08.070 and charitable and forgiving and generous and 01:03:08.070 --> 01:03:12.409 not making fun of people. So I learned that really 01:03:12.409 --> 01:03:15.150 the hard way, but it was a good lesson. And as 01:03:15.150 --> 01:03:17.030 I say in the book, I learned a lot about working 01:03:17.030 --> 01:03:20.690 and working hard, which I think, you know, actually 01:03:20.690 --> 01:03:24.469 is a good thing to do. Don't be lazy. I start 01:03:24.469 --> 01:03:27.889 the book off with two epigraphs, and maybe we 01:03:27.889 --> 01:03:30.969 can end there. These are quotes from my parents. 01:03:31.030 --> 01:03:33.730 I'm sure every parent has said this. One was 01:03:33.730 --> 01:03:38.809 from my mom. You have to get the intonation right. 01:03:39.190 --> 01:03:42.989 When I talk about what I was going to do in the 01:03:42.989 --> 01:03:44.989 summer, you know, like in March, like around 01:03:44.989 --> 01:03:46.570 this time of year, you start to think like, well, 01:03:46.650 --> 01:03:48.730 what am I going to do this summer? And she would 01:03:48.730 --> 01:03:52.409 say, you're not going to sit inside all summer, 01:03:52.530 --> 01:03:56.849 that's for sure. So in the 1970s, like get out 01:03:56.849 --> 01:03:59.329 and get a job. And my dad would always say, I 01:03:59.329 --> 01:04:00.889 would come back and I'd complain and I'd say, 01:04:00.989 --> 01:04:04.750 it's not a lot of fun. And he'd say, of course 01:04:04.750 --> 01:04:06.969 it's not fun. Why do you think they call it work? 01:04:07.110 --> 01:04:09.489 If it were fun, they'd call it play. So those 01:04:09.489 --> 01:04:11.469 are the two things that I kind of lead the book 01:04:11.469 --> 01:04:13.429 off to kind of set the tone. I'm sure everyone's 01:04:13.429 --> 01:04:14.949 parents have said that to him at one point or 01:04:14.949 --> 01:04:18.090 another. Absolutely. Yeah, no, I agree. I do 01:04:18.090 --> 01:04:22.369 think that's a great place to conclude. And yeah, 01:04:22.989 --> 01:04:26.030 I invite anyone listening to do what you've done 01:04:26.030 --> 01:04:29.179 in this book. go back into your life, go back 01:04:29.179 --> 01:04:31.840 into your life and think about, develop a sense 01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:35.340 of gratitude for the friends you, your path interacted 01:04:35.340 --> 01:04:37.719 with along the way, your path crossed with along 01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:40.000 the way. And then the lessons that you learn 01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:43.139 from these experiences that maybe were uncomfortable. 01:04:43.820 --> 01:04:46.860 at the time, but continue to form and inform 01:04:46.860 --> 01:04:49.860 us today. So thank you for writing the book, 01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:51.900 and thanks for coming on the podcast, Father 01:04:51.900 --> 01:04:53.719 Jim. Well, thanks so much, and I really do want 01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:56.900 to say thank you for being such a close and careful 01:04:56.900 --> 01:05:01.539 and compassionate reader of the book. I don't 01:05:01.539 --> 01:05:03.719 often have interviews where the person has read 01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:05.699 the book so closely and carefully, so thank you 01:05:05.699 --> 01:05:07.739 very much, and I'm glad you liked it. So next 01:05:07.739 --> 01:05:09.559 time we meet, we'll have to talk about our golf 01:05:09.559 --> 01:05:12.360 course days. Yeah, that sounds great. That may 01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:17.199 be a three -hour podcast. Okay. Well, thank you 01:05:17.199 --> 01:05:26.039 so much. We'll talk soon. My pleasure. Once again, 01:05:26.099 --> 01:05:29.030 that was Father James Martin. I've linked to 01:05:29.030 --> 01:05:31.610 Father Jim's new book, as well as his other work 01:05:31.610 --> 01:05:34.409 and any other helpful resources in the show notes 01:05:34.409 --> 01:05:37.590 of this episode. His new book, Work in Progress, 01:05:37.670 --> 01:05:40.889 is available on Tuesday, February 3rd, 2026. 01:05:41.429 --> 01:05:43.510 I encourage you to pre -order it, and I'll give 01:05:43.510 --> 01:05:46.130 a quick plug as well to the audio book. It's 01:05:46.130 --> 01:05:49.530 read by him, the author. It's great. It's entertaining. 01:05:50.210 --> 01:05:53.469 I could not recommend it enough. So thank you 01:05:53.469 --> 01:05:56.269 for tuning in, and thanks as always for your 01:05:56.269 --> 01:05:59.179 support. This is Stephen Copeland signing off. 01:05:59.360 --> 01:06:01.239 Peace and all good.