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Welcome to Off the Page and Happy New Year. Phew,

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season three, here we go. And before we begin,

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I wanted to thank each of you listeners from

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the bottom of... bottom of my heart, for your

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support of this podcast. You may have heard in

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December that it was decided Franciscan media

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would be closing its doors, including the publishing

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of the oldest Catholic magazine in the country,

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St. Anthony Messenger, after 130 years. I assume

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the episode 26 with Father Michael Calabria would

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probably be the final episode of Off the Page.

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But a little later, it was decided that the podcast

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that our daily newsletter and our site as well

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will continue into 2026. And this is all because

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of you and your support. So thank you so much

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from the bottom of my heart for listening, commenting,

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sharing these episodes. I'm a writer who kind

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of stumbled into this podcasting space, but I've

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grown to love it. I think it's such an important

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medium today in both our media and spiritual

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landscapes. And there's something as well about

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podcasting that is uniquely Franciscan in its

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elevation of relationship and listening. And

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I really do love how conversation can become

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a vehicle for contemplation. some of life's deepest

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mysteries. I think dialogue can help make the

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beauty of Franciscan theology and the Franciscan

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way of life accessible. And even though podcasting

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is undoubtedly a little rough around the edges,

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it's unfolding in real time, it's unpolished.

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I think it's such an interesting medium because

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that kind of authenticity, I hope, I'm aiming

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for, and the exchange as well between two or

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more people who are talking with each other,

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it grounds whatever we're discussing in lived

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experience, which is so important for the Franciscan

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spirit. So thank you again. Thanks for listening.

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Thanks for sharing these episodes and for making

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your voice heard as well. It's very humbling

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to be in this position. And I hope we can keep

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bringing you episodes that support you on your

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spiritual journey throughout this year and into

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the future as well. So there will be some changes

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in 2026, both good, I hope. The first is that

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we are really going to increase production. Season

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one had 10 episodes. Season two had 16 episodes.

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And our goal is to produce two episodes a month

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through the first half of 2026. And then we'll

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see where we're at. Look for a new episode. episode

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to drop every other friday and be on the lookout

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as well for a name change for a rebrand we will

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be changing this name from off the page which

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was created when franciscan media had its book

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line we'll be changing it to franciscan spirit

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My recommendation right now would be to go ahead

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and subscribe to Off The Page if you haven't

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done so already on whatever platform you use

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for listening to your podcasts. So if you're

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listening on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube,

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Amazon. hit that subscribe button and as long

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as you subscribe i believe the name change should

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be updated automatically for you when we make

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this transition that way you don't miss a single

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episode in 2026 so okay let's get into it Today's

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guest is Dr. Mary Beth Ingham. She is a renowned

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scholar on the medieval Franciscan philosopher

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John Dunst Scotus, whose theological insights

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will be the focus of this episode. Sister Mary

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Beth is a professor emerita at... Loyola Marymount

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University in the philosophy department, and

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she's formerly a professor of philosophical theology

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at the Franciscan School of Theology. She holds

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a doctorate in medieval philosophy from the University

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of Freiburg in Switzerland and has published

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widely on the thought of Franciscan master Blessed

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John Dunst Scotus. Her recent publications include

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Scotus for Dunst's great title, An Introduction

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to the Subtle Doctor, rejoicing in the works

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of the Lord, beauty in the Franciscan tradition,

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and the harmony of goodness, mutuality, and moral

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living in John Duns Scotus. In her current research,

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she argues that the spirituality of beauty is

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at the heart of the Franciscan intellectual tradition.

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You are in for a real treat with this episode.

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To begin the year like this is a great blessing

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to me. Anytime I read SCOTUS, frankly, I feel

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like an idiot. An idiota, as Francis said. But

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I found him to be an incredibly important theologian

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whose insights have been overlooked throughout

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church history and today as well. And we all

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have Sister Mary Beth to thank for both the rediscovery

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of his work and for making it accessible to each

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of us. This episode focuses in on four major

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theological contributions from John Duns Scotus.

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Of course, there's more. This episode focuses

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on four, and I believe that these four components

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that we've chosen to focus on could change everything

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about our own spiritual trajectories today. So

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without further ado, here is Sister Mary Beth

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Ingham. Enjoy. Sister Mary Beth Ingham, thanks

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for joining me on Off the Page. Thank you very

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much for the invitation. I look forward to it.

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Yeah, no, this is a real joy for me. And the

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focus, of course, is going to be Blessed John

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Dunst Scotus and his work. And some listening

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may not be familiar with who Blessed John Dunst

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Scotus is and why he's important today. Can you

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begin by talking about who he was and why, in

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your view, he's relevant today? Yes. Well, he

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was a Franciscan friar. born in Scotland in the

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little town of Duns. And his first name was John.

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So that's why he's called John Duns Scotus. And

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of course, Scotus in Latin would mean the Scot.

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So it's really John of Duns in Scotland. He was

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born right around 1265. We're not quite sure

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of his actual birth date, but he did die in 1308.

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So he's the generation of Franciscan thinkers

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after Bonaventure. So kind of a big piece of

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the 13th century into the 14th century. Very

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important historical moment. It was, because

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as many know, Bonaventure was a contemporary

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of Thomas Aquinas. And so SCOTUS represents not

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that same generation, but the following generation.

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So the questions he's going to be dealing with

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are a little bit different. It's a different

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context. A lot's been going on in the 50 years

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between the two generations. So oftentimes it's

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difficult to understand Scotus because scholars

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come to Scotus through the lens of the way Aquinas

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and Bonaventure might treat a problem or see

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a problem as important. And I think that makes

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it difficult because Scotus is really responding

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to the moments, the arguments and the questions

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of his day. And he's building on the earlier.

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thinkers. And in some cases, I think actually

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he agrees with them, but the context is different.

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And so it sounds like he's doing something different.

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But I think if we take the time to go more deeply

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into his moment in history and how he comes at

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it, there's a lot of parallels. There's a lot

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of resonance. He died at the age of 42. which

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means really he didn't have time in his life,

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his young life, to finalize a lot of what he's

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writing about. And this is really what makes

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him so difficult to thinker, because it's very

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unclear sometimes where he stands on a given

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issue. You know, Father Alan Walter, a very famous

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Franciscan scholar of the 20th century, said,

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when we read Scotus, what we're reading is a

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mind at work. He's like he's thinking out loud.

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And so he's opining about a variety of ways to

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answer a question. And what makes it really frustrating

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sometimes is he never tells you what he really

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thinks. Yeah. And so you're sort of left, ha,

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now what do we do? Right. And so, you know, in

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some ways he's teaching us how to think. in the

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way that Thomas Aquinas teaches us how to think.

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Now, of course, the difference with Thomas Aquinas

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is he was able, he lived longer. He was able

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to bring his arguments to some conclusions. And

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of course, that's what we find in the Summa Theologica

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and the Summa Contra Gentiles. Aquinas thinks

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it through and comes to a conclusion so we know

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what he thinks. Scotus just keeps thinking it

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through. And in many ways, he could have used

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a good editor. Because apparently, from the testimonies

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of his students, he was an absolutely fabulous

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teacher and lecturer. And he really prompted

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students to think rather than a good writer or

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a clear writer. So it does make him a difficult

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person, but an important person. So I'll get

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to your second question. Important person because

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he offers the Franciscan vision. toward an open

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universe, which is really where we are today

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in the 21st century with the discoveries of science

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and quantum physics and all that. We have a more

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open understanding of the universe as an evolving

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and developing reality. Since Scotus is a thinker

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who engages in evolving and developing ways of

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coming at things, there's more resonance in his

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approach. And then if we couple that with the

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fact that he was a Franciscan. He will be articulating

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the vision of Francis of Assisi, most notably

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personified by our own late Pope Francis. This

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ecological moment, this moment of sustainability,

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this moment of solidarity toward immigrants and

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refugees and all of those in need. There are

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aspects of our present. That situation that offer

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us doorways into the thought of SCOTUS that make

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him a very interesting dialogue partner doesn't

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give us all the answers. So we're not going to

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wear T -shirts and we're not going to have little

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bobbleheads of SCOTUS running around. But we

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are going to say, here's a man who deserves a

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second look. And the fact that he's difficult

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shouldn't make us hesitate. It should just make

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us realistic about what are we able to understand

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today. given our place in history as distinct

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from his place in history. A final note, he was

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beatified by Pope John Paul II, Pope St. John

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Paul II in 1994. And so he is a blessed, which

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basically means that all of his teachings are

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worth studying. They're authentic to the Catholic

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tradition. And they represent, as I said, another

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voice in the Franciscan intellectual and spiritual

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tradition who's worth knowing. Why is he called

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the subtle doctor? Well, he's called the subtle

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doctor because he makes very, very subtle distinctions.

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And he never comes at a question without laying

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out or playing out all the subtle differences

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that can be present in any one way of approaching

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things. So, you know, he never met an argument

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he didn't like. So he's always going. deeper

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and deeper and deeper, making subtle distinctions

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in ways that can be confusing and also enlightening.

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The complexity of his thinking and the kind of

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feeling of almost dizziness and disorientation

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that you get when reading him, in a sense, it's

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kind of its own invitation into mystical thinking

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and experiencing, correct? Yes, I think so. And

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in fact, you raise an interesting point about

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the role of experience in his thought. I had

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a personal experience of this insight when I

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was struggling with one of his texts, and it

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made absolutely no sense to me. And so I thought

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to myself, I need to stop trying to make it make

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sense. I'm going to go out for a walk. So I went

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out for a walk, and during my walk, the insight

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came to me or the thought came to me. I wonder

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if what he's really trying to do is unpack in

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almost a phenomenological way an experience he's

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had. And the experience that he's had is an experience

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of beauty and the wonder of the created world

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as a place of beauty. I came back to my study,

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sat down, looked at the text again. It made perfect

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sense. So I think this is where he's much more

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of an existential. thinker. And by that, I mean,

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he takes real situations and tries to unfold.

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It's peeling the onion, really. He's trying to

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get at all the different levels of nuance that

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are present in that particular concrete situation.

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If we try to make him too abstract, it's exactly

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what you're referring to. It's this sense of

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dizzying. What is this man trying to say? But

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to ground it, There's an experience behind what

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he's talking about. Now, the challenge is, of

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course, to get in touch with that experience.

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And in my own life, as a scholar of SCOTUS, I've

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found the touchstones for his thought predominantly

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in the Franciscan stories and in the Franciscan

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spiritual tradition. So to come at him with no

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sense. of the Franciscan way of thinking about

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reality, which is basically grounded in love

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and grounded in an abundant way of imagining

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God's action in the world, then we get caught

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trying to make him make sense. And we make him

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make sense according to our ways of thinking

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rather than being led by him and questioning

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our own approach to say, maybe I can think about

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this differently. And if I think about this differently,

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I may be able to understand what he's saying.

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He's also called the Marian doctor, not just

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the subtle doctor, the Marian doctor. And he's

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called the Marian doctor because he was the first

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to really lay out in a compelling way the arguments

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in defense of the Immaculate Conception. And

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these were the arguments that were later used

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by the Pope in the articulation of the dogma

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of the Immaculate Conception in the 19th century.

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So one of the reasons he is so popular. among

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those who have a deep devotion to the Blessed

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Mother is because he's the one who really stratified

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and articulated what had been the English Franciscan

00:15:53.970 --> 00:15:57.789
approach to the Immaculate Conception. So he's

00:15:57.789 --> 00:16:01.549
got both sides of him. He's got the Marian devotion

00:16:01.549 --> 00:16:04.169
side, which makes him the Marian doctor, and

00:16:04.169 --> 00:16:06.730
then he's got this incredibly challenging philosophical

00:16:06.730 --> 00:16:09.940
side that makes him the subtle doctor. Yeah.

00:16:10.019 --> 00:16:14.059
Yeah. And I just think it's neat to how, as you

00:16:14.059 --> 00:16:17.279
were delving into him, it was your own experience

00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:20.600
that helped you to kind of awaken to how experience

00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.340
was also helping to drive the train of his thought

00:16:24.340 --> 00:16:26.779
as well. And, you know, as we discussed leading

00:16:26.779 --> 00:16:29.970
up to this episode. Our trajectory for this is

00:16:29.970 --> 00:16:32.629
really going to be based around four important

00:16:32.629 --> 00:16:35.809
contributions of SCOTUS and why they matter,

00:16:35.909 --> 00:16:39.070
why they're relevant today. And one major theme

00:16:39.070 --> 00:16:41.730
is one you've already brought up, and that's

00:16:41.730 --> 00:16:45.269
this notion of beauty. So can you dive a little

00:16:45.269 --> 00:16:48.669
bit deeper into that, perhaps talk about his

00:16:48.669 --> 00:16:52.450
own sensibility toward beauty and why this is

00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:58.960
a cornerstone to his theology? I'm beginning

00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:03.340
to see him more as an artist than a scientist.

00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.579
And, you know, oftentimes artists and scientists

00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:09.400
have a lot in common, especially as they look

00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:11.619
at the natural world. They both want to describe

00:17:11.619 --> 00:17:14.339
it. They both want to experience it. They often

00:17:14.339 --> 00:17:17.799
experience it in very similar ways. I heard the

00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.680
story one time of a NASA, a group of NASA scientists

00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:27.200
at a moonshot. And at the end of it. at the successful

00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.099
rocket taking off, they all looked at each other,

00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:32.240
and the one word that came out of their mouths

00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.380
was, it was beautiful. It was beautiful. Not

00:17:35.380 --> 00:17:37.740
it was fascinating, it was successful, it was

00:17:37.740 --> 00:17:40.440
all the kind of categories we have, but there's

00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:44.259
a sense that both scientists and artists understand

00:17:44.259 --> 00:17:47.900
the world. and you used this term earlier, in

00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:51.539
a kind of a mysticism of creation. Now, that's

00:17:51.539 --> 00:17:54.640
not pantheism, and it's not making creation God,

00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:58.039
but it's a way of experiencing God's presence.

00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.500
Panentheism, it's often called panentheism, not

00:18:02.500 --> 00:18:05.420
pantheism, but panentheism, which really means

00:18:05.420 --> 00:18:08.980
that God is deeply present in the world around

00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:12.700
us, in all of creation, and that that wholeness

00:18:13.180 --> 00:18:18.460
is experienced by us as beauty. And as we try

00:18:18.460 --> 00:18:23.019
to wrestle with the categories of beauty and

00:18:23.019 --> 00:18:25.900
our own deep emotional response to beauty and

00:18:25.900 --> 00:18:28.740
how uplifting it is and how challenging it is,

00:18:28.779 --> 00:18:34.720
it calls forth in us a deeper emotional awareness

00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:39.220
of what's going on around us. Now, the Franciscan...

00:18:39.470 --> 00:18:43.150
spiritual and intellectual tradition is deeply

00:18:43.150 --> 00:18:46.769
grounded in love, and it's charged with a kind

00:18:46.769 --> 00:18:49.970
of emotional response, you know, compassion,

00:18:50.329 --> 00:18:54.869
solidarity. These are all Franciscan terms, and

00:18:54.869 --> 00:18:57.369
they belong to other traditions as well, but

00:18:57.369 --> 00:18:59.769
they're privileged in the Franciscan tradition

00:18:59.769 --> 00:19:02.630
because of the life of St. Francis of Assisi

00:19:02.630 --> 00:19:07.450
and how his own attraction toward the lepers.

00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:10.619
Early in his life, whereas before he had been

00:19:10.619 --> 00:19:14.119
repulsed by the lepers, he had a conversion and

00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:17.420
then was able to reach out to them in love. So

00:19:17.420 --> 00:19:21.759
to talk about the centrality of beauty is to

00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:27.160
enter a world of, I think, more confusion and

00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:32.660
more desire to kind of suss out, well, what was

00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:35.660
your experience in this? And what was my experience?

00:19:36.539 --> 00:19:39.819
What moved me, because it's going to be the experience

00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:44.799
of beauty that moves us toward action in the

00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.240
world, toward ways of responding to those most

00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.859
in need. I think the whole of beauty calls us

00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:55.500
to see the world through a different paradigm.

00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:00.339
And it really is not the paradigm of commercialism,

00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:05.440
not the paradigm of... competition, but rather

00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.640
the paradigm of gift and giftedness, that everything

00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:13.640
is a gift and that we see it around us as a gift

00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.500
and we're not called to hoard it or to possess

00:20:16.500 --> 00:20:20.960
it. Rather, we're invited to see it as the manifestation

00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:23.299
of God's abundant love in the world or God's

00:20:23.299 --> 00:20:25.700
extravagant love in the world, and therefore

00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:28.779
we're called to share. So, you know, gifts are

00:20:28.779 --> 00:20:33.279
meant to be given and passed on and shared they're

00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:35.660
not meant to be hoarded. They're not meant to

00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:38.839
be, you know, it's like the parable of the talents

00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.319
that the master gives out all of these talents.

00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:44.220
And the one fellow at the end doesn't know what

00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:46.460
to do with his talent. He's afraid of the master,

00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:49.920
so he buries it in the ground. He's the one that

00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.420
loses even the talent he has because he didn't

00:20:52.420 --> 00:20:55.420
realize it was a gift and he was meant to do

00:20:55.420 --> 00:20:58.980
something with it, not to bury it. So I think

00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:04.829
the... This Franciscan vision of beauty is also

00:21:04.829 --> 00:21:09.190
an invitation to action and response to people

00:21:09.190 --> 00:21:14.269
around us. So it's not beauty in the sense of

00:21:14.269 --> 00:21:16.710
we often experience beauty in museums and we

00:21:16.710 --> 00:21:19.230
go to see art and we, you know, this is wonderful.

00:21:19.470 --> 00:21:22.509
And it's not that sense of beauty. It's more

00:21:22.509 --> 00:21:26.390
a transcendent experiential sense of those moments

00:21:26.390 --> 00:21:30.539
in our lives that are truly transformative. for

00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:33.480
us, that we come away saying, I'm a different

00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.259
person. In the way that falling in love can make

00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:41.039
us, suddenly the world is different. Not because

00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:42.700
the world is different, the world has always

00:21:42.700 --> 00:21:45.920
been there, but because we're different. You

00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.839
know, the poet Gerard Manley Hopkins, who was

00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:51.619
tremendously influenced both by the Franciscan

00:21:51.619 --> 00:21:54.339
tradition, but especially by Scotus, he has that

00:21:54.339 --> 00:21:59.269
great poem called Hurrah in the Harvest, and

00:21:59.269 --> 00:22:03.250
where he says, these things were here. All these

00:22:03.250 --> 00:22:07.410
things were here from time, eternity. And the

00:22:07.410 --> 00:22:10.049
only thing missing was the beholder. There was

00:22:10.049 --> 00:22:15.509
not somebody who actually noticed and actually

00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:19.470
paid attention. So the notion of beauty, I think,

00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:23.109
for the Franciscans, as I've experienced in my

00:22:23.109 --> 00:22:26.589
interaction with them, is an attention to the

00:22:26.859 --> 00:22:32.880
The delicate, the small, the ephemeral, the flower

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:37.180
or the sunset, right? That it's here right now.

00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:40.059
So it's the present moment. It's here right now.

00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:43.619
But in 15 minutes, it'll be different. So there's

00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:47.180
all of these values that come through this lens

00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:51.539
of beauty. It's not about, you know, what do

00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:54.759
I like? What do you like? It's this deeper transcendent

00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:57.940
understanding of beauty. as another name for

00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:03.539
God. Yes. That it is the experiential, transformative

00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:07.599
moment that calls forth a response and a conversion

00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.720
in us. Yeah, I would invite you to riff on this

00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:16.299
more, but as I'm listening to you, I think this

00:23:16.299 --> 00:23:20.319
is so important in our own culture, whether you're

00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:22.779
a Franciscan or Catholic or have any spiritual

00:23:22.779 --> 00:23:26.859
background or not, but this You mentioned emotional

00:23:26.859 --> 00:23:32.640
awareness, this kind of idea of, I say idea ironically,

00:23:33.019 --> 00:23:34.599
because it's actually the opposite. It's like

00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:36.720
actually getting out of your head, which we're

00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:41.180
not very good at in the West. We like our ideologies.

00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:44.240
As a Christian, I like my theology, philosophy,

00:23:44.380 --> 00:23:47.519
you know, but the Franciscan approach to beauty

00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:49.519
and SCOTUS's approach to beauty, if I'm hearing

00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:53.299
you correctly, I mean. it really invites you

00:23:53.299 --> 00:23:56.640
to open your senses to an experience of something.

00:23:56.700 --> 00:24:00.660
Yes. And in this attention economy where you're

00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:04.920
just always being, you know, everyone's playing

00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:08.000
for your attention. Beauty invites us to slow

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.359
down and to have an authentic experience with

00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.460
something that oftentimes you can't quantify,

00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:16.940
like you said. It's like falling in love. That's

00:24:16.940 --> 00:24:19.700
a beautiful example. You don't really measure

00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:22.559
that. No, you can't. You feel it. All you know

00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.960
is something's happened. Yes, exactly. Do you

00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.319
have anything to add there? I just think this

00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:34.190
idea of the centrality of beauty. I think anyone

00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:36.869
listening, regardless of their background, could

00:24:36.869 --> 00:24:39.529
benefit from that. Like, hey, open your senses

00:24:39.529 --> 00:24:42.069
a little bit more today to experience beauty

00:24:42.069 --> 00:24:45.390
and goodness. Any thoughts there? Yes. And I

00:24:45.390 --> 00:24:47.769
think, well, a couple of things. First, this

00:24:47.769 --> 00:24:49.890
will be a through line as we talk about some

00:24:49.890 --> 00:24:51.710
other pieces of SCOTUS. So we're not going to

00:24:51.710 --> 00:24:53.769
lose beauty. We're just going to see it as kind

00:24:53.769 --> 00:24:56.369
of a big backdrop. But the other thing is, I

00:24:56.369 --> 00:24:59.569
think if we think of our world today and we think

00:24:59.569 --> 00:25:02.430
of the enormous... challenges we're facing in

00:25:02.430 --> 00:25:05.609
our world, the violence, the divisiveness, the

00:25:05.609 --> 00:25:09.089
ways in which people are competing for this or

00:25:09.089 --> 00:25:14.289
that, the terrible gap or horrendous gap, really,

00:25:14.390 --> 00:25:16.750
between those who have and those who don't have.

00:25:17.170 --> 00:25:21.220
How do we stay sane? How do we move through our

00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:24.279
lives without despairing, without giving up,

00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:27.119
without saying, there can't be a God because

00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.299
this is horrible, and if I were God, I would

00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:32.920
make this better? Well, I think God's choice,

00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:35.319
and we'll talk more about this, is to give us

00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:38.539
freedom and to say, I've given you what you need,

00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:41.720
and I want you to be an adult about this. So

00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.779
the experience of beauty, whatever it is, slowing

00:25:45.779 --> 00:25:50.119
down, meditating, practicing mindfulness, all

00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:53.799
of the ways that we're able to turn off social

00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:59.039
media, stop exposing ourselves to input, input,

00:25:59.140 --> 00:26:03.519
input that is just its content, and it turns

00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:08.299
us into consumers. That's all we're doing is

00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:10.980
consuming things, consuming things. And we think

00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:13.559
that makes us satisfied, but it doesn't make

00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:17.460
us satisfied. What satisfies us is turning off

00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:22.660
the television, turning off the cell phone, putting

00:26:22.660 --> 00:26:27.420
it down, going out for a walk, breathing deeply,

00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:32.079
taking a moment, engaging in meditative practices

00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:36.140
every day where what I'm doing is I'm feeding

00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:40.980
my spiritual self, not the self that's being

00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:44.799
bombarded by everything that's happening. I can

00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:49.299
be a beacon of light and hope for people who

00:26:49.299 --> 00:26:52.460
are suffering in situations of hopelessness because

00:26:52.460 --> 00:26:57.339
when I'm in that stance of quiet, of inner quiet,

00:26:57.700 --> 00:27:02.400
then I can listen. And the Holy Spirit can whisper

00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:08.779
actions for me. Why don't I? What about this?

00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:12.140
Maybe I'll go volunteer at a soup kitchen. Maybe

00:27:12.140 --> 00:27:15.109
I'll start donating food. to places that are

00:27:15.109 --> 00:27:18.269
helping. Maybe I'll reach out to the person next

00:27:18.269 --> 00:27:21.369
door to me who may not agree with me in political

00:27:21.369 --> 00:27:23.990
or social matters, and I'll have a cup of coffee

00:27:23.990 --> 00:27:27.269
with them because they're a human being. So it's

00:27:27.269 --> 00:27:31.789
building the web of community, but I can't do

00:27:31.789 --> 00:27:35.950
that if I'm agitated, if I'm engaged in activism,

00:27:36.309 --> 00:27:40.309
if I'm stressed, if it's all about, what do I

00:27:40.309 --> 00:27:44.420
do now? What do I do now? Beauty, I think, is

00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:49.940
an invitation for us not to ignore what's happening

00:27:49.940 --> 00:27:53.859
around us, but to recognize that there's a bigger

00:27:53.859 --> 00:27:56.380
spiritual world that I can tap into that will

00:27:56.380 --> 00:28:00.059
give me the energy I need and the timing I need

00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:04.140
to do, as Francis of Assisi would say, to do

00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:08.000
what is mine to do at the moment and not feel

00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.430
like I've got to fix everything. Because so much

00:28:11.430 --> 00:28:13.450
of what's happening in our world today is really

00:28:13.450 --> 00:28:17.589
out of our control. What's in my control are

00:28:17.589 --> 00:28:21.470
actions that I can engage in each day with the

00:28:21.470 --> 00:28:25.029
people around me, and I can bring hope into the

00:28:25.029 --> 00:28:28.210
world. And I think this Jubilee Year of Hope

00:28:28.210 --> 00:28:31.730
is a perfect time for us to say, how can I be

00:28:31.730 --> 00:28:35.230
a beacon of hope? How can I be in my little circle,

00:28:35.289 --> 00:28:39.890
in my little world? And can I open my eyes to

00:28:39.890 --> 00:28:42.269
ask the question, what does somebody else need,

00:28:42.430 --> 00:28:46.170
not what do I need? Yes, exactly. Yeah, beauty

00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:51.470
in my own life, or at least daring, trying to

00:28:51.470 --> 00:28:55.190
open my senses to beauty, it's kind of helped

00:28:55.190 --> 00:28:59.210
me very practically cross that bridge from the

00:28:59.210 --> 00:29:03.390
reactivity you're talking about to receptivity.

00:29:03.529 --> 00:29:06.000
You know, you mentioned beauty as a gift. You

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.240
know, so, well, what do you do with gifts? You

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:11.259
receive a gift. You humbly receive a gift. You

00:29:11.259 --> 00:29:14.099
experience that gift. Then you do the same for

00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:18.059
others. And beauty really, at least for me, it's

00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:20.180
helped to unlock that a little bit more because

00:29:20.180 --> 00:29:22.359
like you said, there is so much input. There

00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:25.619
is so much, you know, you mentioned the sitting

00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:27.740
across the table from someone who you may disagree

00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:32.240
with, you know, so. you slip into those battle

00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:35.119
of ideologies and it can kind of become reactive

00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:37.680
again. But if you can kind of pause and be like,

00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.000
oh my gosh, there's a beautiful heart and mind

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.079
in front of me. There's a story here. There's

00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:47.680
a journey here. This person is, they're sincere

00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:51.740
in what they believe. They're as sincere as I

00:29:51.740 --> 00:29:54.900
am. And they have human dignity the way I have

00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:58.680
human dignity. So where can we find? connection.

00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:03.660
We may not agree, but that doesn't mean, as Pope

00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:07.220
Leo has said recently, it doesn't mean we don't

00:30:07.220 --> 00:30:15.559
treat one another with respect. The first theological

00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.900
insight from John Donne Scotus that Sister Mary

00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:22.680
Beth Ingham highlights in our interview is Scotus's

00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:26.269
sensibility toward beauty. Gerard Manley Hopkins,

00:30:26.569 --> 00:30:29.430
a Jesuit poet, his sister Mary Beth said was

00:30:29.430 --> 00:30:33.809
deeply impacted by SCOTUS. In his sonnet, done

00:30:33.809 --> 00:30:37.529
SCOTUS's Oxford, Hopkins praises SCOTUS as one,

00:30:37.609 --> 00:30:41.410
quote, who of all men most sways my spirits to

00:30:41.410 --> 00:30:45.549
peace, end quote. And also as a, quote, rarest

00:30:45.549 --> 00:30:49.799
vain unraveler. of reality which is the subtitle

00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:52.519
of one of sister mary beth's books understanding

00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.039
john dunst scotus is the title i love the poem

00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:00.000
that she quoted hurrahing the harvest where hopkins

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.200
invites us to open our eyes and our senses to

00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.059
see and experience the spiritual in the material

00:31:07.059 --> 00:31:11.960
world these things were here he writes and but

00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:16.359
the beholder waiting so in this minute meditation

00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.339
How can you, the beholder, help orient your soul

00:31:21.339 --> 00:31:24.420
toward beauty today? Beauty in the material world

00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:27.579
that's rising up all around you. One thing I'm

00:31:27.579 --> 00:31:30.839
hoping to do today as the beholder is to allow

00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.380
myself to gaze more deeply at the little moments

00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:37.920
that unfold throughout my day. So often I jump

00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.640
quickly from thing to thing, but I hope that

00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:44.420
this gaze can take me deeper into presence, into

00:31:44.420 --> 00:31:47.480
receiving the gift of beauty. for it truly is

00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:57.400
abundant. Now back to the conversation. You mentioned

00:31:57.400 --> 00:31:59.920
this, and this is another contribution we wanted

00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:02.900
to get into. I know less about this. I'm really

00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:05.819
curious to learn from you here. And that is SCOTUS's

00:32:05.819 --> 00:32:09.799
approach to free choice and thoughtful self -restraint.

00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:13.680
Can you dive into that? And you mentioned beauty

00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:15.940
as a backdrop to pretty much all of these. So

00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:18.039
I'd be curious to see you connect that to beauty

00:32:18.039 --> 00:32:23.740
as well. So SCOTUS starts with an inherited distinction.

00:32:24.410 --> 00:32:28.349
from Anselm of Canterbury that he uses. And this

00:32:28.349 --> 00:32:33.609
approach identifies two energies within us. And

00:32:33.609 --> 00:32:37.970
as Anselm himself was reflecting on freedom,

00:32:38.210 --> 00:32:40.829
he said, well, there are these two energies.

00:32:41.369 --> 00:32:44.390
He doesn't call them energies, but we would call

00:32:44.390 --> 00:32:48.720
them today energies. One is for the self. So

00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.240
I have an energy in me that's directed toward

00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.700
myself and my good, my own good. And of course,

00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:57.539
as we said earlier, if I have dignity, then of

00:32:57.539 --> 00:33:01.359
course I have good and metaphysical good, and

00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:04.000
I need to respect that good. So that's what that

00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:07.480
first energy is, an energy for the self. But

00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:12.799
I also have an energy for the good, the good

00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:16.490
beyond myself. So he calls it an energy for justice,

00:33:16.730 --> 00:33:19.269
but he doesn't mean social justice. He means

00:33:19.269 --> 00:33:22.430
biblical justice. So that's right relationship.

00:33:22.670 --> 00:33:27.670
So I have this energy, these two energies. And

00:33:27.670 --> 00:33:31.509
so this is still Anselm, and then we're going

00:33:31.509 --> 00:33:34.690
to just transition to SCOTUS. So these two energies,

00:33:34.769 --> 00:33:39.069
Anselm says the first is natural. It's native.

00:33:39.210 --> 00:33:43.289
It's inborn. I can't not have it. I came with

00:33:43.289 --> 00:33:45.890
it, right? As I like to say to my students, the

00:33:45.890 --> 00:33:49.529
batteries are included. So nothing I can do to

00:33:49.529 --> 00:33:54.329
get rid of this basic good energy toward myself.

00:33:54.650 --> 00:33:58.390
And it's not selfish. It can become selfish,

00:33:58.529 --> 00:34:02.769
but it's not selfish. It is self -regarding,

00:34:02.769 --> 00:34:07.930
but it's the principle whereby I'm able to protect

00:34:07.930 --> 00:34:11.159
myself. So it's really a kind of a self -preservation

00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:13.920
instinct. We share this with animals. Animals

00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:18.679
have the same kind of way of reacting to things.

00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:21.480
You think about when adrenaline starts flowing

00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:24.219
in my body if I'm threatened. That comes from

00:34:24.219 --> 00:34:28.059
this deep energy of self -protection. So everybody's

00:34:28.059 --> 00:34:31.960
got it. The second energy, it's an energy, he

00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:34.519
calls it energy for justice, and it's for an

00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:36.719
intrinsic good. It's for the good beyond myself.

00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:42.420
It's the value. It's truth, for example. So if

00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:46.960
I have to tell the truth in a situation where

00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.639
I feel that I'm going to get punished by telling

00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.679
the truth. Now, do you see there? There's this

00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:58.059
tension between my desire for the good of the

00:34:58.059 --> 00:35:01.769
truth. I want to say it, but I'm afraid. Because

00:35:01.769 --> 00:35:06.090
I might be persecuted. I might be attacked. I

00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:08.829
might lose my job. And there's any one of a number

00:35:08.829 --> 00:35:13.050
of personal things. So in any situation, those

00:35:13.050 --> 00:35:16.650
two energies are present. And Anselm says, and

00:35:16.650 --> 00:35:21.269
Skotus agrees, they constitute freedom. Well,

00:35:21.309 --> 00:35:23.949
they constitute free choice. So this is what

00:35:23.949 --> 00:35:25.730
they mean by free choice or sometimes called

00:35:25.730 --> 00:35:29.719
free will. So we've got this constitution. Of

00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:34.239
these two parts of ourselves, the energy for

00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:39.960
justice is the rational energy. It keeps track

00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:44.440
of the energy for myself. And so SCOTUS calls

00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:48.719
the energy for justice a bridle, you know, like

00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:51.400
on a horse. If you're riding a horse, you're

00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.519
holding the horse back because you've got the

00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:57.139
bridle in his mouth. You're pulling him back.

00:35:57.690 --> 00:36:00.849
And so that's the way these two energies interact,

00:36:01.110 --> 00:36:04.349
that the energy for self would just, just, hey,

00:36:04.570 --> 00:36:07.809
you know, let's have it all and let's have it

00:36:07.809 --> 00:36:11.269
all now. Right. And, you know, we were all children

00:36:11.269 --> 00:36:14.510
at one point. We were all in that kind of world

00:36:14.510 --> 00:36:16.409
where I wanted everything and I wanted everything

00:36:16.409 --> 00:36:22.449
now. As we mature, the energy for justice moderates,

00:36:22.469 --> 00:36:26.030
takes control, in a good sense, takes control.

00:36:26.809 --> 00:36:29.110
over this energy for self to say, well, do I

00:36:29.110 --> 00:36:32.730
really need that second piece of cake, right?

00:36:32.809 --> 00:36:36.769
I really need that. So it's a way of monitoring

00:36:36.769 --> 00:36:41.449
or restraining this other desire that I might

00:36:41.449 --> 00:36:44.969
have to have everything. This says, okay, maybe

00:36:44.969 --> 00:36:49.230
not. So together, now we get to SCOTUS, because

00:36:49.230 --> 00:36:53.929
Anselm held that this energy for justice was

00:36:53.929 --> 00:36:58.250
actually lost. as a result of original sin, so

00:36:58.250 --> 00:37:03.110
that we can only really exercise authentic free

00:37:03.110 --> 00:37:06.570
choice with grace. We need grace. Scotus and

00:37:06.570 --> 00:37:11.409
other Franciscans, but Scotus argues no, because

00:37:11.409 --> 00:37:16.309
if we don't have both naturally, then we're not

00:37:16.309 --> 00:37:19.250
free naturally. And our human dignity, which

00:37:19.250 --> 00:37:24.159
is based on freedom, would only be... those people

00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:27.099
who are experiencing grace, and then sinners

00:37:27.099 --> 00:37:29.199
wouldn't be free anymore. Well, that doesn't

00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:33.639
work, because if somebody who is a sinner, they

00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:36.519
don't have grace, they're doing actions. If they

00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:38.980
don't have control over what they're doing, they're

00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:41.420
not responsible for what they're doing. So where

00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:44.480
SCOTUS is going with this, as will other Franciscans,

00:37:44.500 --> 00:37:51.380
this notion of Free choice or free will as innately

00:37:51.380 --> 00:37:55.019
part of who we are is absolutely essential to

00:37:55.019 --> 00:37:59.539
think about ourselves as moral adults. We make

00:37:59.539 --> 00:38:03.159
choices. We do things. We are responsible for

00:38:03.159 --> 00:38:06.019
what we do. So if I do something bad, I should

00:38:06.019 --> 00:38:08.159
be punished. If I do something good, I should

00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:11.960
be rewarded. And that applies to people who are

00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:15.440
acting well, Mother Teresa, and it applies for

00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.329
people who are not acting. very well, right?

00:38:18.429 --> 00:38:22.409
Adolf Hitler. So, you know, we think of good

00:38:22.409 --> 00:38:25.510
people and bad people are people, and they have

00:38:25.510 --> 00:38:32.010
this notion of internal free choice. Now, for

00:38:32.010 --> 00:38:35.789
SCOTUS, stay with me here, for SCOTUS, that's

00:38:35.789 --> 00:38:40.710
the seed of freedom. That's the seed. So that's

00:38:40.710 --> 00:38:43.929
where we all start out. We've got this interaction,

00:38:44.170 --> 00:38:48.099
this dynamic. But in life, We have to mature

00:38:48.099 --> 00:38:51.440
and develop and get better and better at making

00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:55.500
better and better choices, which sometimes require

00:38:55.500 --> 00:39:00.179
me to choose my own good. There are some situations

00:39:00.179 --> 00:39:03.900
where choosing my good is the most appropriate

00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:08.400
thing to do. And not necessarily, you know, because

00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:15.579
you think of people who are in... unhealthy relationships

00:39:15.579 --> 00:39:18.539
where they're deferring all the time to somebody

00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:22.559
else. They haven't yet established their own

00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:24.559
dignity in their own eyes to be able to stand

00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:27.460
up and say, no, I'm doing this now. I'm doing

00:39:27.460 --> 00:39:30.360
this now for me. And I'm not selfish. I'm doing

00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:33.519
it for me. So that's tricky. And we all need

00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:38.719
help in making those kinds of decisions because

00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:43.179
as we know in moral life, We make our decisions

00:39:43.179 --> 00:39:45.599
for ourselves, but we never make decisions by

00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:48.780
ourselves. That we always need a moral community,

00:39:48.980 --> 00:39:51.380
what I like to call a moral community, that we're

00:39:51.380 --> 00:39:53.500
interacting with and we're talking with, especially

00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:56.519
when we're making serious decisions or important

00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:00.179
decisions for our own life. So moving on now,

00:40:00.260 --> 00:40:04.159
we mature and we mature and we mature. And for

00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.440
SCOTUS, the... The greatest act of freedom, which

00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:11.280
is based on this internal seed we're talking

00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:13.900
about, the greatest act of freedom, he says,

00:40:13.900 --> 00:40:17.559
is an act of firmitas. And firmitas is an act

00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:22.420
of commitment where I pledge myself to someone

00:40:22.420 --> 00:40:25.079
else. Now, that can be a marital commitment.

00:40:25.219 --> 00:40:28.300
It can be a vocational commitment. It can be

00:40:28.300 --> 00:40:32.619
a commitment to a cause. It's a place where I

00:40:32.619 --> 00:40:38.039
say, I will now pledge. to do X, whatever it

00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:41.059
might be. And that's the highest form of freedom.

00:40:41.380 --> 00:40:46.360
So pledging myself to a cause or to a value or

00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:49.539
to a way of life or to a relationship with somebody

00:40:49.539 --> 00:40:52.280
does not limit my freedom. In fact, it's the

00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:55.570
fruit of my freedom. Yeah. So that's the first

00:40:55.570 --> 00:40:59.210
piece of this notion of the fullness of freedom

00:40:59.210 --> 00:41:02.449
and how true freedom comes from this internal

00:41:02.449 --> 00:41:05.429
seed that we've got of these two energies. But

00:41:05.429 --> 00:41:07.949
there's a second one, and you mentioned it earlier.

00:41:08.630 --> 00:41:11.670
The more I think about this notion of these two

00:41:11.670 --> 00:41:14.889
energies interacting with each other and their

00:41:14.889 --> 00:41:20.150
capacity to monitor my own consumption, my own

00:41:20.150 --> 00:41:23.860
way of being, I'm now beginning to see an important

00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:29.579
resource for the present conversations around

00:41:29.579 --> 00:41:33.460
sustainability and environmental sustainability.

00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:36.739
Because really, if you think about it, the whole

00:41:36.739 --> 00:41:40.659
notion of reuse, recycle, you know, that whole

00:41:40.659 --> 00:41:44.920
thing really comes out of a sense of I'm not

00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:47.670
going to hang on to things. I'm going to use

00:41:47.670 --> 00:41:49.849
what I have for the good of others. I'm going

00:41:49.849 --> 00:41:52.329
to be mindful about it. I'm not going to be automatic

00:41:52.329 --> 00:41:58.929
or radical in the sense of I'm not thinking,

00:41:59.010 --> 00:42:02.610
I'm just doing things. No, I'm going to be mindful

00:42:02.610 --> 00:42:07.650
about what are the actions that I can perform

00:42:07.650 --> 00:42:13.710
that in fact are regenerative for life and for

00:42:13.710 --> 00:42:16.710
flourishing. on our planet, our common home,

00:42:16.829 --> 00:42:23.230
what can we do that, in fact, reveal our intentional

00:42:23.230 --> 00:42:29.309
desire to share what we have, to be beacons of

00:42:29.309 --> 00:42:33.510
hope, to be supporters of life, and in all of

00:42:33.510 --> 00:42:36.190
its forms, not just before birth, but in all

00:42:36.190 --> 00:42:41.400
of its forms, as we move toward more and more

00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:46.719
realization of the dependence of ecology and

00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:50.039
the ecological future of our planet on us. Now,

00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:58.800
this piece about these two, I think, also connect

00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:02.719
to what I'm increasingly interested in, which

00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.820
is the Franciscan approach to poverty. And poverty...

00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:09.760
We think of poverty and we think of material

00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:13.199
poverty. We think of being without. And for many

00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.340
people, that's what Franciscan poverty means.

00:43:15.420 --> 00:43:18.579
And we know that Franciscans are, in fact, committed

00:43:18.579 --> 00:43:23.360
to, they take a vow to not use resources more

00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:25.920
than they need. But there's also a dimension

00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:29.219
of poverty, which I think can be tied to this,

00:43:29.300 --> 00:43:32.940
which is this notion of self -restraint. That

00:43:32.940 --> 00:43:35.079
it's, you know, the Franciscans use the word

00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:38.079
sine proprio, which is without anything of my

00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:42.900
own. It's a way of seeing the abundant world

00:43:42.900 --> 00:43:45.119
of gift, and there's beauty coming through again

00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:48.860
as a thread, to see that world, to recognize

00:43:48.860 --> 00:43:52.599
the goods around me, and to say, okay, in this

00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:56.980
present situation, what in my life can I restrain?

00:43:57.340 --> 00:44:00.139
What consumption can I restrain? How can I, you

00:44:00.139 --> 00:44:02.719
know, easy things like if I'm going out, let's

00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:04.780
say I have to take the car. If I'm going out

00:44:04.780 --> 00:44:07.900
in the car, can I make three trips rather than

00:44:07.900 --> 00:44:09.860
go out and do one trip, then come back, go out

00:44:09.860 --> 00:44:12.920
and do another? So it's all the economical ways,

00:44:13.099 --> 00:44:16.739
we think, of saving money. But it also, these

00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:20.019
are ways that help save the planet, save the

00:44:20.019 --> 00:44:24.179
atmosphere, save the goods of the earth, which

00:44:24.179 --> 00:44:27.550
are given for all. Not just for some. They're

00:44:27.550 --> 00:44:30.909
given to be shared by all. Now, this is a big,

00:44:30.989 --> 00:44:35.829
big problem. As we know, the whole global situation

00:44:35.829 --> 00:44:39.829
right now. And you might say, yeah, but if I

00:44:39.829 --> 00:44:42.849
don't, you know, drive 10 minutes, what difference

00:44:42.849 --> 00:44:45.690
does that make? And I think Franciscans would

00:44:45.690 --> 00:44:49.289
say, and SCOTUS would say, every single step

00:44:49.289 --> 00:44:56.440
matters. Every single action matters. Every particular

00:44:56.440 --> 00:45:01.340
moment matters. And so rather than imagine I'm

00:45:01.340 --> 00:45:02.960
going to solve all the problems of the world

00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:06.860
by driving less, I'm just going to think about

00:45:06.860 --> 00:45:12.360
the effect of my driving less on the atmosphere

00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:15.000
in my neck of the woods. And I'm in Southern

00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:18.619
California. So we know smog and we know the problems

00:45:18.619 --> 00:45:21.659
that come with air pollution. So how can I be?

00:45:21.739 --> 00:45:24.400
It's just being mindful. that there are more

00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:27.000
people out there than me. And that's disaffection

00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:30.219
for justice. I'm part of a bigger community and

00:45:30.219 --> 00:45:35.659
I matter. Yeah. And my actions matter. And that's

00:45:35.659 --> 00:45:39.539
the commitment piece. Yeah. Yeah. And then, gosh,

00:45:39.699 --> 00:45:41.920
yeah, there's a lot there. We could riff on this

00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:45.159
for a while, but I mean, you mentioned abundance

00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:51.039
and tell me if I'm tracking here, but self -restraint.

00:45:52.170 --> 00:45:55.349
The beauty and abundance that's already inherently

00:45:55.349 --> 00:45:58.769
there in your life and in the world, that can

00:45:58.769 --> 00:46:02.530
be something that helps equip you for self -restraint,

00:46:02.530 --> 00:46:06.829
correct? Because you're already enough. You already

00:46:06.829 --> 00:46:09.389
possess. I don't like the word possess, but you

00:46:09.389 --> 00:46:11.210
know what I'm saying. Like beauty is already

00:46:11.210 --> 00:46:13.690
there. Love, goodness, it's already there to

00:46:13.690 --> 00:46:16.730
be experienced. Everything you need. You have

00:46:16.730 --> 00:46:19.150
everything you need. Yes. Right. You don't need

00:46:19.150 --> 00:46:21.070
to go looking. Somebody said to me once, it was

00:46:21.070 --> 00:46:24.369
such an interesting, that Francis of Assisi had

00:46:24.369 --> 00:46:29.690
a small material footprint. You know, we talk

00:46:29.690 --> 00:46:31.710
about our ecological footprint. He had a small

00:46:31.710 --> 00:46:34.510
ecological footprint, but he had a gigantic spiritual

00:46:34.510 --> 00:46:37.670
footprint. Yeah. And so I think there's the abundance.

00:46:37.849 --> 00:46:48.760
The abundance is spiritual abundance. introduces

00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:53.219
hopeful energy, positive energy, energy that

00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:56.199
is life -giving into situations. Pope Francis

00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:59.340
talks about, you know, the integral ecology.

00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:02.960
Integral ecology is where we see everything connected.

00:47:03.179 --> 00:47:05.840
And that's not just materially connected, spiritually

00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:08.500
connected. When all is said and done and we're

00:47:08.500 --> 00:47:11.780
on the other side of reality and we're able to

00:47:11.780 --> 00:47:14.880
look back and see. What were the actions that

00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:17.340
really mattered? I think we're going to be surprised

00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:20.719
at the actions we thought were so important.

00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:24.360
And in fact, the actions that we considered minimal

00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:27.619
ended up being the most important actions of

00:47:27.619 --> 00:47:35.639
all. The second theological insight that Sister

00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:39.480
Mary Beth Ingham discusses is John Duns Scotus's

00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:43.530
emphasis on thoughtful self -restraint. Sometimes

00:47:43.530 --> 00:47:47.090
we think of covenant to be something that's binding,

00:47:47.369 --> 00:47:51.630
but in reality, it's liberating, I've found.

00:47:51.809 --> 00:47:55.369
I once worked on a book project with people in

00:47:55.369 --> 00:47:58.389
an Amish community in northern Ohio, and one

00:47:58.389 --> 00:48:01.269
man I interviewed talked about how all the guardrails

00:48:01.269 --> 00:48:04.130
in their lifestyle actually positions their souls

00:48:04.130 --> 00:48:08.969
to be more free. And an example he gave was not

00:48:08.969 --> 00:48:11.769
allowing workers to use their cell phones at

00:48:11.769 --> 00:48:14.320
their Amish. Amish -led furniture company, and

00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.699
that included employees who weren't Amish. So

00:48:17.699 --> 00:48:21.519
one of the non -Amish creatives there shared

00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:25.239
with me that he had forgotten how vibrant his

00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:28.019
mind and creativity could be when he released

00:48:28.019 --> 00:48:30.739
himself from the need to check the notifications

00:48:30.739 --> 00:48:35.019
on his phone. So in other words, the guardrails

00:48:35.019 --> 00:48:39.019
he didn't know that he needed freed him to be

00:48:39.019 --> 00:48:44.070
more fully himself. So what kind of covenant

00:48:44.070 --> 00:48:47.650
might you want to make or renew in the coming

00:48:47.650 --> 00:48:52.070
days? And once you decide what that is, perhaps

00:48:52.070 --> 00:48:55.130
notice the ways in which thoughtful self -restraint

00:48:55.130 --> 00:48:58.849
paradoxically helps you to enjoy the fruit of

00:48:58.849 --> 00:49:01.849
freedom that we've already each been given in

00:49:01.849 --> 00:49:11.760
Christ. Now back to the conversation. So I wanted

00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:14.380
to get into another contribution of SCOTUS, and

00:49:14.380 --> 00:49:18.179
this gets into another Anselm thing. Yes. But

00:49:18.179 --> 00:49:22.019
SCOTUS's approach to the incarnation, what was

00:49:22.019 --> 00:49:24.079
it? What makes it unique? Why is it important?

00:49:24.619 --> 00:49:28.280
Okay. So this, I think, is a really transformative

00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:32.199
gift that SCOTUS, representing the Franciscan

00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:34.300
tradition. So again, he didn't make this up.

00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:37.539
He just articulated it in a way that has been

00:49:37.539 --> 00:49:42.400
seen to be compelling. So, and it builds on the

00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:44.199
things we've talked about up till now, beauty,

00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:48.119
giftedness, human freedom, all of that, our background

00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:53.019
now to this. So, traditionally, there were many

00:49:53.019 --> 00:49:56.380
reasons that early church fathers presented in

00:49:56.380 --> 00:50:00.380
terms of understanding why the incarnation, why

00:50:00.380 --> 00:50:02.739
did God become human? Why did God choose to become

00:50:02.739 --> 00:50:05.409
human? And so if you look back at the early church

00:50:05.409 --> 00:50:07.349
fathers, there are a ton of different ones. Very,

00:50:07.409 --> 00:50:09.550
very, everybody could believe what they wanted

00:50:09.550 --> 00:50:12.309
to believe. Well, in the 11th century, Anselmo

00:50:12.309 --> 00:50:16.590
of Canterbury articulated an approach that really

00:50:16.590 --> 00:50:20.210
became very standardized in the church. And perhaps

00:50:20.210 --> 00:50:23.210
not, maybe he didn't intend it to become standardized,

00:50:23.269 --> 00:50:26.929
but it did take on a life of its own. And it's

00:50:26.929 --> 00:50:30.570
that the incarnation took place because of the

00:50:30.570 --> 00:50:34.159
sin of Adam and Eve. So it was original sin that

00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:39.820
resulted in a horrendous injury to God's honor.

00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:43.960
And since God is infinite, you can't make amends,

00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.019
a finite being, a human being, finite being cannot

00:50:47.019 --> 00:50:51.480
make amends for the infinite injury against God.

00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:54.840
And so therefore, the second person of the Trinity

00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:59.920
chose freely to become one of us in order as

00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:04.920
a human to... make amends. To atone. To atone.

00:51:05.260 --> 00:51:08.099
That's right. And this is the theory of atonement,

00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:13.179
and that the atonement really is focused on Good

00:51:13.179 --> 00:51:17.360
Friday, the death, the suffering, the death,

00:51:18.179 --> 00:51:20.760
maybe mainly Holy Thursday, but Good Friday,

00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:25.059
those three hours, and that took care of it.

00:51:25.099 --> 00:51:28.519
That was what was required. That bridges the

00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:31.599
chasm. That's right. And so amends are made.

00:51:31.960 --> 00:51:35.719
He takes our place. He suffers and dies. And

00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:39.039
therefore in his humanity, because he in the

00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:42.440
incarnation, a divine, divine nature, human nature,

00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:45.320
a divine person. But, you know, one person, two

00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:51.320
natures. And so on our behalf. So the Franciscan

00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:54.199
approach to this found some problems. because

00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:57.800
of the way Anselm presented the argument. One

00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:01.559
of the problems they had was that Anselm maintained

00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:04.500
that it was necessary for God to become human

00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:09.019
because of the nature of the injury to divine

00:52:09.019 --> 00:52:13.599
honor. Now, for Franciscans, especially of the

00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:18.199
generation of Scotus, to make anything a requirement

00:52:18.199 --> 00:52:21.659
on the part of God is problematic because...

00:52:22.030 --> 00:52:25.250
If our freedom is important, God's freedom is

00:52:25.250 --> 00:52:28.750
important. So they began to think about the whole

00:52:28.750 --> 00:52:33.570
thing. So take a big step back. Frame of beauty.

00:52:33.909 --> 00:52:39.010
Frame of creation. Take a long view and say,

00:52:39.110 --> 00:52:43.210
okay, how do we want to think about this? And

00:52:43.210 --> 00:52:48.820
Scotus says, well. The way we think about it

00:52:48.820 --> 00:52:51.900
differently is to ask a different question. This

00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:55.559
is so important because the questions we ask

00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:01.179
frame the answers we get. So he says, OK, here's

00:53:01.179 --> 00:53:06.559
the question I want to ask, not why did God become

00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:09.260
human? Because then that traps me in the sin

00:53:09.260 --> 00:53:11.820
of Adam and Eve. The question I'm going to ask

00:53:11.820 --> 00:53:17.880
is, what was God's major? reason for becoming

00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:23.380
human? So what was his primary reason for becoming

00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:26.940
human? And in order to answer that question,

00:53:27.219 --> 00:53:32.000
he goes all the way back to the Trinity and to

00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:35.360
the act of creation. And so he would ask the

00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:38.980
question, well, this question relies on this

00:53:38.980 --> 00:53:42.320
question, why did God create it all? You know,

00:53:42.340 --> 00:53:44.260
Heidegger, great Heidegger, great philosopher

00:53:44.260 --> 00:53:46.420
Heidegger in the 20th century asked the ultimate

00:53:46.420 --> 00:53:48.519
philosophical questions. Why is there something?

00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:51.260
Why is there anything at all and not nothing?

00:53:51.440 --> 00:53:53.820
So that's kind of where Scotus is going. He doesn't

00:53:53.820 --> 00:53:56.579
ask the question in that way. But the point is,

00:53:56.599 --> 00:53:59.179
well, wait a minute. Why did God create? Not

00:53:59.179 --> 00:54:01.320
why did God become human? Why did God create?

00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:05.260
And the answer from within his Franciscan approach

00:54:05.260 --> 00:54:08.719
of beauty and freedom is, well, God created.

00:54:09.289 --> 00:54:14.570
in order to introduce divine life to all of reality.

00:54:14.949 --> 00:54:17.670
And we see this, and there are scriptural bases

00:54:17.670 --> 00:54:20.130
for these. We see this in the letter to the Ephesians.

00:54:20.170 --> 00:54:22.610
We see this in the letter to the Colossians,

00:54:22.650 --> 00:54:26.050
where Paul is talking, it's kind of cosmic. It's

00:54:26.050 --> 00:54:29.449
all about bringing everything into union with

00:54:29.449 --> 00:54:32.630
God. Yeah, and in the prologue of John's gospel.

00:54:32.630 --> 00:54:34.670
And in the prologue of John's gospel, right.

00:54:34.769 --> 00:54:39.929
So now it's this, whoa. Big cosmic plan of God's.

00:54:39.989 --> 00:54:43.590
And that is to bring everything into union with

00:54:43.590 --> 00:54:47.889
God. So you've got creation, but that's not enough

00:54:47.889 --> 00:54:54.650
because there has to be a way of elevating an

00:54:54.650 --> 00:55:01.230
important cohort of this created order into divine

00:55:01.230 --> 00:55:05.710
life. And so Skoda says, well, if you think about

00:55:05.710 --> 00:55:10.500
it, An interesting way of elevating human nature

00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:16.260
to union with God in divine nature is for God

00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:21.599
to become human, to take on the nature, to join

00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:25.599
or unite the divine nature with a human nature

00:55:25.599 --> 00:55:29.780
and therefore elevate human nature through this

00:55:29.780 --> 00:55:32.519
union of the two. Well, that's the incarnation.

00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:37.599
And then the purpose of the incarnation, it's

00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:41.000
not in and of itself something that stops, but

00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:43.860
rather the purpose of the incarnation is to introduce

00:55:43.860 --> 00:55:47.420
us and through our actions and our freedom, all

00:55:47.420 --> 00:55:51.699
of reality into this union with the divine trinity.

00:55:51.780 --> 00:55:57.119
So God's purpose is that all may be one, as John

00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.519
17, that all may be one. And that all is not

00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:04.739
just people. It's everything. Be one in God who

00:56:04.739 --> 00:56:07.820
is trinity of persons, abundant love, flowing

00:56:07.820 --> 00:56:11.239
out, radical beauty. I mean, it all comes together.

00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:17.260
And so this then results in the Franciscan approach

00:56:17.260 --> 00:56:21.320
to the incarnation, which doesn't deny the sin

00:56:21.320 --> 00:56:26.139
of Adam and Eve, but it simply says God would

00:56:26.139 --> 00:56:31.280
have become incarnate anyway. Yep. Because God

00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:34.099
is so good and loving and wants to become one

00:56:34.099 --> 00:56:37.420
with creation. Yeah. And God doesn't wait for

00:56:37.420 --> 00:56:40.659
us to do something to react. And that's what

00:56:40.659 --> 00:56:43.019
they said. A couple of problems with Anselm's

00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:46.019
argument is, first, makes God have to do something

00:56:46.019 --> 00:56:48.500
that God might not want to do. But the second

00:56:48.500 --> 00:56:54.360
is that it bases, as Skoda says, this bases the

00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:58.619
greatest act that God could achieve, which is

00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:03.090
giving up. divinity to enter into humanity. It

00:57:03.090 --> 00:57:06.250
makes that tremendously wonderful act dependent

00:57:06.250 --> 00:57:10.969
on a mistake or a sin that was made by two human

00:57:10.969 --> 00:57:13.969
beings. Yeah, it puts our sin at the center of

00:57:13.969 --> 00:57:15.630
everything. It puts our sin at the center of

00:57:15.630 --> 00:57:18.730
everything. Everything is dependent on us, and

00:57:18.730 --> 00:57:22.769
we become bigger in this whole, and evil becomes

00:57:22.769 --> 00:57:27.340
bigger than it should be. I mean, evil is a reality.

00:57:27.659 --> 00:57:31.280
Human cruelty is a reality. We know it. We experience

00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:34.280
it. But the point is, as St. Paul says, where

00:57:34.280 --> 00:57:36.980
sin abounds, their grace abounds even more. So

00:57:36.980 --> 00:57:41.880
this notion of dramatic beauty, divine beauty,

00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:46.380
divine initiative, saying, I will be present.

00:57:46.780 --> 00:57:50.400
And not only will I be present, but I will continue

00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:56.119
to be present. The world that God has created

00:57:56.119 --> 00:58:00.179
is not a world that God will not continue to

00:58:00.179 --> 00:58:03.159
take responsibility for. So I think this is another

00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:06.920
key piece of the Franciscan vision. Its divine

00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:10.800
presence is an ongoing commitment of firmitas.

00:58:10.940 --> 00:58:13.800
So here's divine firmitas in the incarnation.

00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:18.650
I will be one with you. You are not alone. So

00:58:18.650 --> 00:58:20.489
we think of Isaiah. We think of a lot of the

00:58:20.489 --> 00:58:22.889
prophets of the Old Testament where, you know,

00:58:22.889 --> 00:58:26.369
if you walk through, I'll be there. If you suffer,

00:58:26.449 --> 00:58:30.369
I'll be there. I am there to help you. And that

00:58:30.369 --> 00:58:32.550
was the message in the burning bush. I'm here.

00:58:32.869 --> 00:58:35.429
I know what's going on and I'm ready to act.

00:58:35.550 --> 00:58:37.710
I'm not going to act on my own. I'm going to

00:58:37.710 --> 00:58:42.269
act through you. And that seems to be God's shtick,

00:58:42.429 --> 00:58:45.230
right? I'm not going to act on my own. Why did

00:58:45.230 --> 00:58:48.940
I? I created you to do something. I created you

00:58:48.940 --> 00:58:51.199
to make the world a better place. So, you know,

00:58:51.260 --> 00:58:54.139
don't blame everything on me. What are you doing

00:58:54.139 --> 00:58:56.420
to make the world a better place? And I think

00:58:56.420 --> 00:59:01.480
this approach to the incarnation is what we call

00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:06.139
in philosophy a paradigm shift. And in a paradigm

00:59:06.139 --> 00:59:08.559
shift, everything's there. It's just not where

00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:11.559
you expect to find it. So in Anselm's paradigm,

00:59:11.980 --> 00:59:16.800
sin was at the center. and everything flowed

00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:19.860
from that. In the Franciscan paradigm, as Scotus

00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:22.739
articulates it, no, God's love is at the center,

00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:25.699
and everything flows from that. Sin is present,

00:59:25.820 --> 00:59:28.320
but it's not in the center. It's over off to

00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:31.440
the side. It will be vanquished. It is in the,

00:59:31.579 --> 00:59:34.619
you know, it's sin is, or evil is self -destructive.

00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.840
Evil does not produce anything fruitful. It will

00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:45.230
ultimately destroy itself. So, I think the position

00:59:45.230 --> 00:59:48.309
on the Incarnation is really an important one

00:59:48.309 --> 00:59:53.429
today, and I'll end with this. If we notice that

00:59:53.429 --> 00:59:56.309
at the Council of Trent, in the first session

00:59:56.309 --> 00:59:58.730
of the Council of Trent in the 16th century,

00:59:58.909 --> 01:00:03.590
it was introduced, we need to codify Anselm's

01:00:03.590 --> 01:00:06.210
position on the Incarnation so it becomes part

01:00:06.210 --> 01:00:10.210
of authentic Catholic doctrine. And so a little

01:00:10.210 --> 01:00:12.349
commission was set up and they went off to do

01:00:12.349 --> 01:00:17.929
that. They didn't get to it. And Trent had two

01:00:17.929 --> 01:00:22.449
sessions. The second session of Trent, when that

01:00:22.449 --> 01:00:26.469
was convened, the people that had wanted to codify

01:00:26.469 --> 01:00:31.369
Anselm's approach as Catholic doctrine had died

01:00:31.369 --> 01:00:34.469
in the plague. And so there was nobody there

01:00:34.469 --> 01:00:39.099
to defend Anselm's position. What this means

01:00:39.099 --> 01:00:44.519
is there is no definitive church doctrine on

01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:48.780
why God became human. And even though many of

01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:52.320
us learned Anselm's approach as children. It's

01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:55.480
a majority position. Yeah, we thought it's doctrine.

01:00:55.699 --> 01:00:59.679
We thought it's there. And even Thomas Aquinas

01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:02.760
says, we don't know. We don't know why God became

01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:06.519
human. And so this is a theory. It gains a lot

01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:11.500
of interest because it can explain sinfulness.

01:01:11.719 --> 01:01:14.659
And I think that's the value of Anselm's theory.

01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:18.039
It really does situate sinfulness in an important

01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:22.599
place. I think today, going forward, what we're

01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:24.960
finding as we interface with other religions,

01:01:25.260 --> 01:01:28.300
and especially within the ecumenical Christian

01:01:28.300 --> 01:01:32.960
movement, the Franciscan approach, maybe more,

01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:36.000
I hope it's more attractive to people. It doesn't

01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:37.800
get rid of Adam and Eve. It doesn't get rid of

01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:42.139
sin. It just doesn't make the incarnation a consequence

01:01:42.139 --> 01:01:48.219
of original sin. Yep. Yeah. And I know you have

01:01:48.219 --> 01:01:51.019
about 20 minutes, so we'll get to the final contribution

01:01:51.019 --> 01:01:54.699
here. But to me, the approach to the incarnation

01:01:54.699 --> 01:01:58.239
has so many psychological implications too, because

01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:03.099
if sin is at the center, Well, then on a personal

01:02:03.099 --> 01:02:08.579
level, I can justify focusing in on all my imperfections

01:02:08.579 --> 01:02:11.199
and wrongdoings and not and not the, you know,

01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:13.880
the Franciscan approach is not shrugging off

01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:17.380
sin, but. But so if sin is at the center or that

01:02:17.380 --> 01:02:20.980
can also lead me to focus on other people's imperfections

01:02:20.980 --> 01:02:23.719
or their lack of, I have an evangelical background.

01:02:23.940 --> 01:02:27.099
So the big thing was we have to get people to

01:02:27.099 --> 01:02:30.239
believe that Jesus died for them, you know? So,

01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:33.880
so in that, in that notion, like you're focusing

01:02:33.880 --> 01:02:36.079
on someone else's, what you're perceiving is

01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:38.400
their imperfections because sin is at the center.

01:02:39.079 --> 01:02:41.639
The Franciscan approach, if God's goodness is

01:02:41.639 --> 01:02:45.710
at the center, now all of a sudden, like, Now

01:02:45.710 --> 01:02:47.650
I'm experiencing God's goodness in the person

01:02:47.650 --> 01:02:49.909
who is most different than me. Now I'm experiencing

01:02:49.909 --> 01:02:53.119
God's goodness in... trying to become more aware

01:02:53.119 --> 01:02:55.239
of how God is trying to become one with me. And

01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:58.980
sometimes that can lead to divinization. You

01:02:58.980 --> 01:03:01.940
know, that is the shedding of sin. But it's a

01:03:01.940 --> 01:03:04.760
different starting place. It's a positive starting

01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:08.000
place rather than a negative starting place.

01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:10.800
Maybe that's an oversimplification. No, no, that's

01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:15.159
right. Because, no, it's a shift in what matters.

01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:20.199
And now I'm... Yes, Good Friday took place. Yes.

01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:25.460
And it was the brutal, violent killing of an

01:03:25.460 --> 01:03:29.179
innocent man who spoke the truth to power and

01:03:29.179 --> 01:03:31.840
was persecuted for it. So it doesn't have to

01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:35.039
be the reason he died was because of Adam and

01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:38.480
Eve. The reason he died was because he was upsetting

01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:42.579
both the religious but also the political environment.

01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:45.760
And he was in their face. But the other thing

01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:51.630
it does is it He expands the power of the life

01:03:51.630 --> 01:03:56.789
and ministry of Jesus as a reason. Not just three

01:03:56.789 --> 01:04:01.369
hours on one day, but look at 30 years of a life.

01:04:01.530 --> 01:04:05.309
Look at the power of his ministry. Look at the

01:04:05.309 --> 01:04:08.070
way he interacts with people. Look at what he's

01:04:08.070 --> 01:04:11.590
trying to teach us. Look at how he's showing

01:04:11.590 --> 01:04:15.969
us what it means to be a human being. He's not

01:04:15.969 --> 01:04:20.190
just kind of here as the scapegoat or the innocent

01:04:20.190 --> 01:04:26.190
victim who goes to death and is risen. So, yes,

01:04:26.329 --> 01:04:30.510
I mean, I think all of a sudden the way he treats

01:04:30.510 --> 01:04:35.250
women becomes an important part of God's message

01:04:35.250 --> 01:04:38.489
to the world. The way he treats the outcast,

01:04:38.730 --> 01:04:42.630
the way he treats the suffering, the way he sees.

01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:47.659
things as human brokenness. And that calls forth

01:04:47.659 --> 01:04:51.880
compassion. So there's so much to be drawn from

01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:55.519
just, you know, you just tweak a paradigm a little

01:04:55.519 --> 01:04:58.280
bit, and all of a sudden, we begin to notice

01:04:58.280 --> 01:05:05.710
things we hadn't noticed before. The third theological

01:05:05.710 --> 01:05:08.769
insight that Sister Mary Bathingham discusses

01:05:08.769 --> 01:05:12.269
is John Dunst Scotus' theological approach to

01:05:12.269 --> 01:05:15.349
the incarnation. His belief that it would have

01:05:15.349 --> 01:05:18.030
still happened whether Adam and Eve had sinned

01:05:18.030 --> 01:05:22.050
or not. And this places, Scotus' approach, it

01:05:22.050 --> 01:05:24.969
places God's goodness at the center of reality

01:05:24.969 --> 01:05:29.230
rather than our own sin. Now, of course, this

01:05:29.230 --> 01:05:33.199
is some... rich, deep theology. As I said in

01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:36.739
the conversation, it probably demands an entire

01:05:36.739 --> 01:05:40.360
episode just focused on Scotus's approach to

01:05:40.360 --> 01:05:43.619
this theological conundrum that many theologians

01:05:43.619 --> 01:05:46.840
in the Middle Ages were delving into. But I figured

01:05:46.840 --> 01:05:49.219
in this minute meditation, let's just try to

01:05:49.219 --> 01:05:51.659
make this super practical on a psychological

01:05:51.659 --> 01:05:55.880
level. And I would invite you to notice today

01:05:55.880 --> 01:06:00.679
or this coming week. how often you notice goodness

01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:04.519
the one the true the beautiful in your life and

01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:07.739
in the world and how often your mind gravitates

01:06:07.739 --> 01:06:11.119
toward what is wrong or lacking what's at the

01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:15.860
center of your own outlook again what's at the

01:06:15.860 --> 01:06:20.380
center of your own outlook is it goodness or

01:06:20.380 --> 01:06:23.820
is it lack As Father Richard Rohr writes, positive

01:06:23.820 --> 01:06:27.300
thoughts, they tend to slide off our minds like

01:06:27.300 --> 01:06:30.360
Teflon, whereas negative thoughts tend to stick

01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:35.519
like Velcro. So this kind of theological vision

01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:40.039
that SCOTUS invites us into has... very real

01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:44.960
psychological implications and practice for reframing

01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:49.000
our own minds, in my opinion. So one thing I

01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:52.099
love about the study of theology and metaphysics

01:06:52.099 --> 01:06:55.380
as well is that it invites me to align my own

01:06:55.380 --> 01:06:59.420
life, my own life and perspective with what I've

01:06:59.420 --> 01:07:02.760
learned. So if I've just learned that divine

01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:06.159
goodness is at the center of everything. And

01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:10.900
is the very motive of the incarnation, you know,

01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:14.239
the question then becomes, how can I also become

01:07:14.239 --> 01:07:18.019
more aware of how divine goodness is at the center

01:07:18.019 --> 01:07:23.059
of my own life? Now back to the conversation.

01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:31.320
Yeah, we could do a whole episode, I think, about

01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:33.360
SCOTUS's approach to the incarnation. Maybe we'll

01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:35.719
have you back on and we'll geek out for 60 minutes

01:07:35.719 --> 01:07:39.380
about that one aspect of theology. So final thing,

01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:41.880
and again, like these four things that we've

01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:44.639
highlighted, there are dozens that we could have

01:07:44.639 --> 01:07:47.119
elevated here. These were just four that, you

01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:49.000
know, we're thinking could have some relevance

01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:52.659
today. The other one is this notion from SCOTUS

01:07:52.659 --> 01:07:56.639
of thisness, particularity, hexaity. Am I pronouncing

01:07:56.639 --> 01:08:00.159
that? correctly. Can you dive into that, unpack

01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:04.059
that for us? Yes. So this was a particular question

01:08:04.059 --> 01:08:07.940
in his lifetime that he was struggling with,

01:08:08.019 --> 01:08:12.880
but so were a lot of other people. And to understand

01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:15.500
it, you have to understand how Aristotle and

01:08:15.500 --> 01:08:19.859
Plato came at individuation, what it means to

01:08:19.859 --> 01:08:23.119
be an individual. So make a long story short.

01:08:24.569 --> 01:08:27.090
So there's a material component, the body, and

01:08:27.090 --> 01:08:28.750
then there's the spiritual component, the soul.

01:08:29.189 --> 01:08:32.550
And for Plato, we're really souls trapped in

01:08:32.550 --> 01:08:35.029
bodies. So really, it relates to anthropology

01:08:35.029 --> 01:08:38.050
and how we see ourselves. We're souls trapped

01:08:38.050 --> 01:08:40.750
in bodies. And the goal of life is to get out

01:08:40.750 --> 01:08:43.289
of my body so that I can be a pure soul existing

01:08:43.289 --> 01:08:47.350
somewhere, like the angels. For Aristotle, it

01:08:47.350 --> 01:08:49.369
was different. He said, no, no, the body's important

01:08:49.369 --> 01:08:53.560
because it's the material. dimension of me. It's

01:08:53.560 --> 01:08:56.500
my molecular structure, my DNA, we might say,

01:08:56.560 --> 01:09:00.199
that makes me who I am. And so, yeah, I have

01:09:00.199 --> 01:09:02.640
a human soul, you have a human soul, but I'm

01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:04.520
a different human person because I'm in this

01:09:04.520 --> 01:09:06.420
body, and you're a different human person because

01:09:06.420 --> 01:09:11.140
you're in that body. So, okay, you got Plato,

01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:13.020
you got Aristotle, you got two ways of looking

01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:15.239
at what it means to have a body. And we know

01:09:15.239 --> 01:09:18.199
that Thomas Aquinas preferred Aristotle. because

01:09:18.199 --> 01:09:20.460
he thought the body is an important part of who

01:09:20.460 --> 01:09:22.939
we are, certainly the incarnation. God thought

01:09:22.939 --> 01:09:25.399
having a body was pretty good, so we do too.

01:09:26.220 --> 01:09:30.659
Now, the problem that comes in this is the problem

01:09:30.659 --> 01:09:36.739
with angels. Who knew, right? Angels. Because

01:09:36.739 --> 01:09:42.720
angels appear in the Bible, right? So, okay,

01:09:42.939 --> 01:09:46.800
Gabriel, Raphael. Michael, three anyway, and

01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:49.720
we think they're more, but okay, three. But angels

01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:57.039
don't have bodies. So here's the problem. If

01:09:57.039 --> 01:10:03.039
Aristotle's right, then Gabriel, Raphael, and

01:10:03.039 --> 01:10:09.000
Michael are the same angel. We got a problem.

01:10:09.180 --> 01:10:13.020
And so Scotus says, okay, let's think about...

01:10:13.260 --> 01:10:18.520
What makes Mimi? What makes you you? What makes

01:10:18.520 --> 01:10:21.779
everything what it is? And this includes inanimate

01:10:21.779 --> 01:10:24.619
objects. So here's a real Franciscan approach,

01:10:25.060 --> 01:10:30.420
right? What makes this rock this rock? And, you

01:10:30.420 --> 01:10:32.520
know, Plato and Aristotle, well, it's just a

01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:34.399
rock. For Pete's sake, don't pay attention to

01:10:34.399 --> 01:10:36.539
it. But the Franciscans are going to pay attention

01:10:36.539 --> 01:10:40.560
to it. No, it is this rock. It is this leaf.

01:10:40.779 --> 01:10:45.329
It is this tree. It is this mountain. It's the

01:10:45.329 --> 01:10:48.710
this that's here. So Scotus goes through all

01:10:48.710 --> 01:10:50.569
of these different theories. I won't bore you

01:10:50.569 --> 01:10:53.050
with all the different theories. And he basically

01:10:53.050 --> 01:10:57.829
comes down to the conclusion that Aristotle's

01:10:57.829 --> 01:11:01.510
approach won't work. Plato's approach won't work.

01:11:01.750 --> 01:11:05.810
What we're left with is the reality. So let's

01:11:05.810 --> 01:11:07.670
go back to the point we were making earlier about

01:11:07.670 --> 01:11:11.390
our experience. The reality of our experience

01:11:11.390 --> 01:11:15.909
of this. And Skoda says, well, look, if you ask

01:11:15.909 --> 01:11:20.869
me, what is it that makes you, you? What is it

01:11:20.869 --> 01:11:25.289
that makes me, me? All I can say is, it's this.

01:11:26.390 --> 01:11:28.930
It's you. It's who you are. It's me. It's who

01:11:28.930 --> 01:11:33.960
I am. So this whole notion of hexaity. And again,

01:11:34.060 --> 01:11:37.079
Alan Walter talks about this in the same vein

01:11:37.079 --> 01:11:38.859
we've been talking about beauty and giftedness,

01:11:38.979 --> 01:11:42.899
that we've each been given a gift and the gift

01:11:42.899 --> 01:11:47.100
is ourselves. So the hexaity that SCOTUS is getting

01:11:47.100 --> 01:11:50.779
at, it's the mystery within each person that

01:11:50.779 --> 01:11:54.340
is who they are. So, you know, what is my hexaity?

01:11:54.460 --> 01:11:58.739
It's my authentic self. And I'm not even aware

01:11:58.739 --> 01:12:04.289
of my hexaity. who I really am. I mean, you know,

01:12:04.310 --> 01:12:07.590
I'm in touch with it. I'm trying to be it. And

01:12:07.590 --> 01:12:11.050
I find during life, oh, no, that's not me. That's

01:12:11.050 --> 01:12:13.409
not me. That wasn't me. I mean, have you ever

01:12:13.409 --> 01:12:15.649
come from a situation where you say to yourself,

01:12:15.710 --> 01:12:20.909
why did I say that? That isn't me. That isn't

01:12:20.909 --> 01:12:26.010
me. I'm not myself. We say that, and I think

01:12:26.010 --> 01:12:28.449
that's what SCOTUS is trying to get to. So to

01:12:28.449 --> 01:12:30.689
return to our point about the beauty of each

01:12:30.689 --> 01:12:33.829
individual, you know, we are each the pearl of

01:12:33.829 --> 01:12:36.470
great price. I love that image of the pearl of

01:12:36.470 --> 01:12:40.189
great price. We're each that pearl. That shouldn't

01:12:40.189 --> 01:12:43.369
make us turn in on ourselves and say, wow, I'm

01:12:43.369 --> 01:12:46.590
the best thing going. But it's to say, look at

01:12:46.590 --> 01:12:51.550
all the pearls that surround reality. Surround

01:12:51.550 --> 01:12:55.310
me. So again, it brings us back to the beauty

01:12:55.310 --> 01:12:58.670
of it all, the gift of it all, the wonder of

01:12:58.670 --> 01:13:05.529
it all. And again, the question is, and how do

01:13:05.529 --> 01:13:13.630
I respond? The fourth theological insight that

01:13:13.630 --> 01:13:16.409
Sister Mary Beth Ingham discusses is John Dunst

01:13:16.409 --> 01:13:20.260
Scotus's philosophical notion of hexaity. What

01:13:20.260 --> 01:13:24.039
makes you you and what makes your loved one who

01:13:24.039 --> 01:13:27.180
he or she is? And perhaps the more difficult

01:13:27.180 --> 01:13:30.239
question, what is beautifully particular and

01:13:30.239 --> 01:13:32.560
unique about the person who you're struggling

01:13:32.560 --> 01:13:37.880
to love? I recently dove into Howard Thurman's

01:13:37.880 --> 01:13:40.640
1980 baccalaureate speech at Spelman College,

01:13:40.659 --> 01:13:44.359
and Thurman echoes throughout his speech this

01:13:44.359 --> 01:13:48.350
line, quote, there is in every person. something

01:13:48.350 --> 01:13:52.149
that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine,

01:13:52.449 --> 01:13:57.670
end quote. And at the end, he takes this to another

01:13:57.670 --> 01:14:00.890
level. I highly recommend listening to the speech.

01:14:00.989 --> 01:14:04.029
I'm embarrassed to say it was my first time really

01:14:04.029 --> 01:14:06.970
diving into it, but there's a real beautiful

01:14:06.970 --> 01:14:11.909
movement to his speech, and it's very mystical,

01:14:12.329 --> 01:14:17.319
dizzying in a sense. There's another kind of

01:14:17.319 --> 01:14:20.699
evolutionary turn at the end of his speech, and

01:14:20.699 --> 01:14:24.439
he lands it with these words, quote, Now, if

01:14:24.439 --> 01:14:28.300
I hear the sound of the genuine in me and you

01:14:28.300 --> 01:14:32.760
hear the sound of the genuine in you, it is possible

01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:37.399
then for me to go down in me and come up in you

01:14:37.399 --> 01:14:41.380
so that when I look at myself through your eyes,

01:14:41.460 --> 01:14:45.430
having made that pilgrimage, I see in me. what

01:14:45.430 --> 01:14:49.770
you see in me and the wall that separates and

01:14:49.770 --> 01:14:53.489
divides will disappear. And we will become one

01:14:53.489 --> 01:14:56.609
because the sound of the genuine makes the same

01:14:56.609 --> 01:15:00.130
music. And then he goes on. There is that in

01:15:00.130 --> 01:15:03.930
every person that waits and listens for the sound

01:15:03.930 --> 01:15:07.449
of the genuine and other people. And when these

01:15:07.449 --> 01:15:11.069
two sounds come together, this is music God heard

01:15:11.069 --> 01:15:17.899
when he said, let us make man. Now, back to the

01:15:17.899 --> 01:15:26.539
conversation. What am I called to do in this

01:15:26.539 --> 01:15:29.840
particular moment with all my gifts, with all

01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:32.119
my weaknesses, with everything, the whole package,

01:15:32.180 --> 01:15:36.460
me, in any given situation, I'm offered an opportunity

01:15:36.460 --> 01:15:39.840
to respond. And that's the freedom that we talked

01:15:39.840 --> 01:15:43.130
about. A little bit earlier. So it's a whole

01:15:43.130 --> 01:15:45.970
piece. And I think what we've done is we've kind

01:15:45.970 --> 01:15:49.869
of walked around the circle to see that at the

01:15:49.869 --> 01:15:52.989
end of the day, the Franciscan vision is really

01:15:52.989 --> 01:15:57.630
the grounds for an enormous celebration of what

01:15:57.630 --> 01:16:01.630
it means to be alive, what it means to be human,

01:16:01.789 --> 01:16:04.329
what it means to live in a community of other

01:16:04.329 --> 01:16:07.029
humans and other beings. And what do we need

01:16:07.029 --> 01:16:13.920
to do to birth more beauty? make reality beautiful

01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:16.399
for everyone, not just for me and the people

01:16:16.399 --> 01:16:20.020
I like, but for everyone, and use my gifts and

01:16:20.020 --> 01:16:24.760
skills to the best of my ability so that at the

01:16:24.760 --> 01:16:28.100
end of the day, I can say, you know, like any

01:16:28.100 --> 01:16:31.680
good Girl Scout would say, I've left the campsite

01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:34.560
better than I found it. I've left the world better

01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:37.920
than I found it. And that, in some ways, that

01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:40.390
can be a tiny thing. But I think when we come

01:16:40.390 --> 01:16:43.069
to the end of our lives and we all want to look

01:16:43.069 --> 01:16:46.409
back in gratitude to just be grateful for everything

01:16:46.409 --> 01:16:49.050
that was given and everything we did and say

01:16:49.050 --> 01:16:51.789
we're sorry for the things that weren't so, you

01:16:51.789 --> 01:16:55.750
know, positive. But the overriding sense of gratitude

01:16:55.750 --> 01:16:57.970
at the end of life, I think, is the greatest

01:16:57.970 --> 01:17:01.609
gift of all. And that's how I want to be. I imagine

01:17:01.609 --> 01:17:03.369
it's how you want to be and how we all want to

01:17:03.369 --> 01:17:08.720
be as we walk into eternity to discover. all

01:17:08.720 --> 01:17:11.039
the people we've loved, all the people who've

01:17:11.039 --> 01:17:14.880
been gifts in our lives, and the tremendous joy

01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:18.659
and hope that God is experiencing all the time

01:17:18.659 --> 01:17:21.310
and just wants to share with all of us. Well,

01:17:21.369 --> 01:17:23.369
I think that is a beautiful way to conclude,

01:17:23.510 --> 01:17:26.189
Sister Mary Beth. Thank you so much for coming

01:17:26.189 --> 01:17:28.609
on the podcast. And on a personal level, I mean,

01:17:28.630 --> 01:17:31.529
thank you for helping me to begin to understand

01:17:31.529 --> 01:17:34.529
a really complex thinker like SCOTUS. I read

01:17:34.529 --> 01:17:38.149
so much of your work at FST. I've got Harmony

01:17:38.149 --> 01:17:41.229
of Goodness right next to me right now. And yeah,

01:17:41.390 --> 01:17:44.270
his theology and Franciscan theology in general

01:17:44.270 --> 01:17:47.170
has really helped me to find healing and liberation

01:17:47.170 --> 01:17:49.369
in my own life. So you are one of those people

01:17:49.369 --> 01:17:52.390
I have to thank for that. So thank you. Any closing

01:17:52.390 --> 01:17:54.689
words for our listeners? No, I don't think so.

01:17:54.810 --> 01:17:58.149
Just, you know, SCOTUS is difficult. He's difficult.

01:17:58.430 --> 01:18:01.090
I won't make apologies for that, but he's worth

01:18:01.090 --> 01:18:03.750
it. He's worth it. Well, thanks for bridging

01:18:03.750 --> 01:18:07.189
his thought and his work for us. Really, really

01:18:07.189 --> 01:18:09.590
grateful for you. So have a great day. Thanks

01:18:09.590 --> 01:18:17.430
for coming on the podcast. Thank you. Once again,

01:18:17.529 --> 01:18:21.300
that was Dr. Mary Beth Ingham. I've linked to

01:18:21.300 --> 01:18:23.979
Sister Mary Beth's books and any other helpful

01:18:23.979 --> 01:18:27.300
resources on John Dunn's SCOTUS in the show notes

01:18:27.300 --> 01:18:31.000
of this episode. So thank you again for tuning

01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:34.119
in. Thank you as always for your support. This

01:18:34.119 --> 01:18:38.079
is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all

01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:38.399
good.