WEBVTT 00:00:07.820 --> 00:00:10.099 Welcome to Off the Page. It's great to be with 00:00:10.099 --> 00:00:13.560 you. For eight centuries, an improbable encounter 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:16.899 between St. Francis of Assisi and Sultan al -Malik 00:00:16.899 --> 00:00:19.719 al -Kamil during the Fifth Crusade has been a 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:23.600 north star for inter -religious dialogue. Christians 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:27.039 tend to focus on Francis in this story, but the 00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:29.980 Sultan's role is equally important, if not more 00:00:29.980 --> 00:00:33.859 so. The unlikely beautiful relationship that 00:00:33.859 --> 00:00:37.219 formed between these two men more than 800 years 00:00:37.219 --> 00:00:40.280 ago can continue to be a model for peacemaking 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:43.500 and dialogue today in a world that seems as if 00:00:43.500 --> 00:00:46.759 it is becoming increasingly polarized and divided. 00:00:47.420 --> 00:00:51.079 You are in for a treat with this episode, and 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:53.479 I'm so thrilled to introduce to you our next 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:57.320 guest, Father Michael Calabria. a friar in our 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:00.079 Lady of Guadalupe Province and director of the 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.719 Center for Arab and Islamic Studies at St. Bonaventure 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:08.000 University. A few things about Father Michael. 00:01:08.180 --> 00:01:10.920 His experience in the Middle East and the Islamic 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:14.819 world began more than 40 years ago when, as an 00:01:14.819 --> 00:01:17.140 Egyptology student at Johns Hopkins University 00:01:17.140 --> 00:01:20.079 and Brown University, he performed archaeological 00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:23.939 work in Egypt. After studying library science 00:01:23.939 --> 00:01:26.780 at Columbia and working as an academic librarian 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:29.739 in New York City, he entered the Franciscan Order 00:01:29.739 --> 00:01:32.859 in 1996 and studied at Washington Theological 00:01:32.859 --> 00:01:36.719 Union. As a friar, he lived in Cairo in 2001 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:40.680 to 2002, ministering in a leprosarium. In between 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:44.959 2003 to 2011, he spent many summers in Egypt 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:47.819 teaching English at a Coptic Catholic seminary 00:01:47.819 --> 00:01:50.909 in Cairo. father michael became a professor at 00:01:50.909 --> 00:01:53.790 saint bonaventure university in 2003 where he 00:01:53.790 --> 00:01:56.670 began teaching courses in arabic and then islamic 00:01:56.670 --> 00:02:00.109 studies after completing his doctorate in islamic 00:02:00.109 --> 00:02:02.709 studies with the institute of arab and islamic 00:02:02.709 --> 00:02:05.209 studies at the university of exeter in england 00:02:05.209 --> 00:02:08.629 he inaugurated the center for arab and islamic 00:02:08.629 --> 00:02:11.550 studies at saint bonaventure university where 00:02:11.550 --> 00:02:15.620 he continues to teach today His 2022 book, The 00:02:15.620 --> 00:02:18.979 Language of the Taj Mahal, analyzed the Quranic 00:02:18.979 --> 00:02:22.159 inscriptions on India's iconic monument and was 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:25.430 featured in a recent documentary. Islam's Greatest 00:02:25.430 --> 00:02:28.990 Stories of Love. He was also a contributor to 00:02:28.990 --> 00:02:32.030 a 2016 documentary about St. Francis' meeting 00:02:32.030 --> 00:02:35.330 with the sultan titled The Sultan and the Saint. 00:02:35.550 --> 00:02:37.990 This conversation went a little longer, so I 00:02:37.990 --> 00:02:40.330 have not provided reflection segments throughout 00:02:40.330 --> 00:02:43.889 this episode. However, Father Michael says so 00:02:43.889 --> 00:02:46.430 many thought -provoking things throughout the 00:02:46.430 --> 00:02:49.150 conversation that I invite you to pause the episode 00:02:49.150 --> 00:02:52.189 whenever something strikes you and to take some 00:02:52.189 --> 00:02:55.389 time to allow it to sink in. deeper into your 00:02:55.389 --> 00:02:58.590 heart. I've provided a few closing quotes at 00:02:58.590 --> 00:03:00.870 the end of the episode to contemplate and meditate 00:03:00.870 --> 00:03:04.069 upon. And as always, check out the show notes 00:03:04.069 --> 00:03:06.770 of this episode for more resources and opportunities 00:03:06.770 --> 00:03:11.110 to reflect on this episode's content. So without 00:03:11.110 --> 00:03:14.870 further ado, here is our next guest, Father Michael 00:03:14.870 --> 00:03:22.719 Calabria. Enjoy. Father Michael Calabria. Welcome 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.400 to Off the Page. Thank you. It's good to be with 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.740 you. So the story about St. Francis of Assisi 00:03:29.740 --> 00:03:32.699 journeying to Egypt to meet the sultan, it's 00:03:32.699 --> 00:03:36.419 a popular one. Can you begin by sharing this 00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:39.560 story and then also providing some background 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.259 about what was happening during that time period? 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:46.080 Okay, how much time do we have now? As much as 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.659 you want. I love this story. It is a great story. 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:52.939 And it is, I think, an inspirational one, not 00:03:52.939 --> 00:03:57.099 only for Franciscan friars, for the larger Franciscan 00:03:57.099 --> 00:04:01.740 family, but indeed all people of faith. And it's 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:04.639 because Francis was acting in a way that was 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:09.479 what we would call today countercultural. So 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:13.419 just to give you some background, We're talking 00:04:13.419 --> 00:04:21.699 about the early 13th century. The church is still 00:04:21.699 --> 00:04:28.800 interested in reconquering Jerusalem. It, of 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:34.160 course, had defeated the Muslims, the Muslim 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:41.189 forces at Jerusalem in 1099, but had lost. lost 00:04:41.189 --> 00:04:49.350 Jerusalem to Salah ad -Din in 1187, had lost 00:04:49.350 --> 00:04:56.029 Jerusalem, but had not given up hope of taking 00:04:56.029 --> 00:05:03.850 the city back. And so in 1213, Pope Innocent 00:05:03.850 --> 00:05:10.490 III issues an encyclical called Quia Maior. because 00:05:10.490 --> 00:05:13.990 it's important, is how we would translate that. 00:05:14.170 --> 00:05:19.550 And he paints a rather apocalyptic view of the 00:05:19.550 --> 00:05:25.230 world at the time. In his view, the world is 00:05:25.230 --> 00:05:31.550 in the end times, and this is now the final battle 00:05:31.550 --> 00:05:36.050 between the forces of good and evil. And he identifies 00:05:36.050 --> 00:05:41.379 Islam as the beast spoken about in the book of 00:05:41.379 --> 00:05:45.220 Revelation. So his language is rather inflammatory. 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:51.019 The text is rather harsh. I don't quote it often 00:05:51.019 --> 00:05:56.579 because it's really tough language. And that 00:05:56.579 --> 00:05:59.860 becomes the basis, that encyclical becomes the 00:05:59.860 --> 00:06:05.180 basis for the Fifth Crusade at the Lateran Council. 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:14.439 The idea is to attack Egypt rather than attacking 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:18.860 Jerusalem first. Egypt is at this point part 00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:22.660 of the Ayyubid Sultanate. That is the sultanate 00:06:22.660 --> 00:06:27.899 that was established by Salah ad -Din. Cairo 00:06:27.899 --> 00:06:33.199 is one of the major capitals of the Ayyubid Sultanate, 00:06:33.220 --> 00:06:35.819 the other one being Damascus. So the Ayyubid 00:06:35.819 --> 00:06:39.439 Sultanate extends its authority over Egypt, all 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:44.079 of Syria, Palestine, up north, really into what 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:48.279 is now northern Iraq and southern Turkey. So 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:52.279 it's a sultanate of considerable power, wealth, 00:06:52.420 --> 00:06:58.519 and expanse. So the idea is to attack Egypt and 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:03.660 in this way rob the Sultanate of its economic 00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:08.160 power. So the crusaders became very much aware 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:12.420 that part of their struggle was that the Sultanate 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:15.879 was a wealthy one. And as long as it had wealth, 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:20.120 it could keep up the fight. And so the object 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:24.759 of the crusade is the city of Damietta, which 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:29.500 is a port city on the Mediterranean in the northeastern 00:07:29.500 --> 00:07:33.139 part of the Egyptian delta. And it is really 00:07:33.139 --> 00:07:38.639 the gateway into Egypt and down to Cairo. And 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:43.079 all of the commercial trade in the eastern Mediterranean. 00:07:44.670 --> 00:07:47.870 if you were having any dealings with the Ayyubids, 00:07:47.949 --> 00:07:53.189 would pass through Damietta on way to Cairo by 00:07:53.189 --> 00:07:58.350 the Nile. So the idea is if the crusaders can 00:07:58.350 --> 00:08:03.050 capture Egypt, then they cut off the flow of 00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:08.370 income to the Ayyubid sultanate and will therefore 00:08:08.370 --> 00:08:13.639 be in a better position to seize Jerusalem. So 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:19.439 that's the foundation, if you will, of this crusade. 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:24.939 Okay, yeah. Now, I'm curious, the encyclical 00:08:24.939 --> 00:08:28.500 that you mentioned was apocalyptic, I think is 00:08:28.500 --> 00:08:34.580 the word you used. Yes. Did he raise the temperature 00:08:34.580 --> 00:08:38.600 in the room, or was he kind of following what 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:41.799 previous popes had done in previous crusades? 00:08:42.570 --> 00:08:45.509 I think that this raised the temperature quite 00:08:45.509 --> 00:08:50.950 a bit because, again, he is trying to, of course, 00:08:51.090 --> 00:08:55.149 inspire Christians to join the crusade. I mean, 00:08:55.149 --> 00:08:57.750 there was no real draft unless you threatened 00:08:57.750 --> 00:09:00.169 to excommunicate people, which occasionally the 00:09:00.169 --> 00:09:05.990 papacy resorted to. But I think this was a really 00:09:05.990 --> 00:09:12.139 concerted attempt to... gather support for this 00:09:12.139 --> 00:09:18.759 crusade by appealing to people's faith in a way, 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:21.639 in a very serious way. I mean, if you're talking 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:24.039 about this is the end of the world, folks, if 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.480 you're framing this endeavor using the book of 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:34.960 Revelation, that's a very serious way of framing 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:39.090 the story here. Yeah, no, that's very helpful. 00:09:39.269 --> 00:09:42.950 You've painted a very good picture of what the 00:09:42.950 --> 00:09:49.149 climate was at that time and how differing people 00:09:49.149 --> 00:09:53.649 viewed one another as well. Indeed. Where does 00:09:53.649 --> 00:10:00.440 Francis come in? Francis arrives in Damietta 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:04.879 in August of 1219. So the crusading armies have 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:09.120 already landed in Egypt in the previous year. 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:16.279 Francis comes and he is in the midst of a terrible 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:19.360 situation because the crusaders have been at 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:21.440 this for quite some time without gaining much 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:29.230 ground. And there have been battles fought between 00:10:29.230 --> 00:10:33.799 the crusading army and the Sultanate. But not 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:38.559 much ground has been gained. So this is war in 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:41.940 a very ugly way. And so Francis is entering into 00:10:41.940 --> 00:10:46.720 real ministry. It's important to realize, as 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:51.580 part of our background, that for the Muslims 00:10:51.580 --> 00:10:54.980 in Egypt, this was a bit of an oddity because 00:10:54.980 --> 00:10:58.899 the Sultanate had commercial dealings with various 00:10:58.899 --> 00:11:03.720 city -states in Italy. There were commercial 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:08.220 agreements that were renewed periodically. So 00:11:08.220 --> 00:11:11.899 it wasn't like Europeans were unknown at the 00:11:11.899 --> 00:11:14.759 time. They were present, particularly merchants 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:19.480 were present, some diplomats as well. And so 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:24.360 when the fleet of the crusaders arrives on the 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:29.049 Egyptian coast, it's a bit of a puzzlement. Why 00:11:29.049 --> 00:11:34.629 are they attacking when we have commercial relations 00:11:34.629 --> 00:11:40.889 with various European Christians? So Francis 00:11:40.889 --> 00:11:51.019 arrives there in 1219 at a very, very... Difficult 00:11:51.019 --> 00:11:55.320 time. Difficult time not only for the crusaders, 00:11:55.340 --> 00:11:57.980 because they're the ones that are initiating 00:11:57.980 --> 00:12:02.019 the battle, but also for the Sultanate, because 00:12:02.019 --> 00:12:08.600 the Sultan al -Adil, who was in Damascus, died 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:12.980 before he could get to Cairo. But he was aware 00:12:12.980 --> 00:12:18.379 of the crusading army, and so he sends word to 00:12:18.379 --> 00:12:23.139 his son. Be careful because this is coming your 00:12:23.139 --> 00:12:26.759 way and you're going to need to step up and attend 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.240 to the defense of the Sultanate. So that happened 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:35.460 soon after the crusading armies arrived. So when 00:12:35.460 --> 00:12:39.159 Francis arrives there, basically a year later, 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:45.919 he's in the midst of a lot of activity going 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:50.870 on. from everything that we know about Francis, 00:12:51.190 --> 00:12:55.210 must have been, we can say that I think with 00:12:55.210 --> 00:12:58.269 a great deal of certainty, must have been to 00:12:58.269 --> 00:13:03.389 bring an end to a terrible conflict. Francis 00:13:03.389 --> 00:13:06.570 was no stranger to warfare. We know this, right? 00:13:06.710 --> 00:13:13.759 That he himself fought. in the battles between 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:17.600 Assisi and Perugia, was taken captive, spent 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:21.039 time as a prisoner of war. So he knows the horrors. 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:25.639 He's seen childhood friends killed in battle. 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:32.899 He has suffered as a prisoner himself. So his 00:13:32.899 --> 00:13:36.879 idea seems to have been from the beginning to 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:43.299 meet with the sultan, al -Malik al -Kamil, who 00:13:43.299 --> 00:13:47.600 had to assume control of Egypt after his father 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:54.279 died. And Francis's belief probably was that 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:59.639 if he could meet with the sultan and preach to 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:05.679 the sultan, then perhaps the sultan would relinquish 00:14:08.479 --> 00:14:12.360 Jerusalem would relinquish his rule, maybe embrace 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.740 Christianity. But from everything we know about 00:14:15.740 --> 00:14:19.779 Francis, there must have been the objective of 00:14:19.779 --> 00:14:24.139 bringing an end to a conflict where lives were 00:14:24.139 --> 00:14:30.620 being lost on both sides. We don't know what 00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:34.559 Francis said to the sultan. We don't have... 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:41.259 any direct script, if you will, of what was exchanged 00:14:41.259 --> 00:14:44.139 between the two. But here's an interesting item. 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:49.840 We know that in September of 1219, Francis meets 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:55.519 with Sultan al -Malik al -Kamil. Sometime after 00:14:55.519 --> 00:15:01.460 that meeting, we know that al -Kamil makes an 00:15:01.460 --> 00:15:05.960 offer of peace. With the crusading camp, several 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:11.879 offers, in fact, he offers the crusaders Jerusalem 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:18.820 and Palestine. He offers them control of the 00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:21.899 holy city. He said he will tear down the walls 00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:24.320 of the city so that the city won't be able to 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:29.870 resist. And yet. Those offers of peace, of bringing 00:15:29.870 --> 00:15:33.750 this conflict to an end, were rejected by the 00:15:33.750 --> 00:15:39.090 papal legate Cardinal Pelagius. So the question 00:15:39.090 --> 00:15:42.529 then becomes why? Isn't the objective to win 00:15:42.529 --> 00:15:46.649 back the holy city? Right. To take control of 00:15:46.649 --> 00:15:48.210 the holy city. Isn't that the whole objective 00:15:48.210 --> 00:15:53.789 of the crusade? No. Because the encyclical of 00:15:53.789 --> 00:15:58.759 innocent. was the complete destruction of Islam. 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:04.860 Because of the way that the Pope had framed the 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:10.820 conflict, this was a battle to the end, to destroy 00:16:10.820 --> 00:16:16.500 evil from the face of the earth as revealed by 00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:20.480 the book of Revelation. So for him, it was not... 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.980 For the Pope and neither for Pelagius was it 00:16:23.980 --> 00:16:29.080 working out some kind of deal with the Sultanate. 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.919 It was the utter destruction of the Sultanate 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.779 and of all Muslims if necessary. So it was a 00:16:35.779 --> 00:16:38.840 pretty brutal kind of position to take. And there 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:43.980 is Francis trying to bring some conclusion to 00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:51.220 this through a peaceful encounter. We don't know 00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:55.019 what they talked about, but we can say with certainty 00:16:55.019 --> 00:17:00.639 what Francis didn't say. He did not in any way 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:07.140 say anything that defamed or degraded the prophet 00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:12.460 of Islam or the faith itself, because he wouldn't 00:17:12.460 --> 00:17:16.460 have left the sultan's camp in peace had he done 00:17:16.460 --> 00:17:20.019 so. We know what the Franciscan friars did in 00:17:20.019 --> 00:17:24.500 Morocco. Father Berard and companions went into 00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:28.000 the mosque in Marrakesh and said horrible things 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:31.619 about the Prophet Muhammad, about Islam, and 00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:33.500 they ultimately lost their lives. Ultimately 00:17:33.500 --> 00:17:38.160 lost their lives. Francis did not take that tactic. 00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:44.880 He apparently spoke in a way. that engendered 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.039 respect from the sultan and from the courtiers. 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:54.099 We know somewhat of what Francis said from Jacques 00:17:54.099 --> 00:17:57.339 de Vitry, who was the bishop of Acre, and he 00:17:57.339 --> 00:18:03.359 said that the Muslims willingly listen to the 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.059 friars as long as they don't insult the prophet. 00:18:08.750 --> 00:18:12.009 Francis spoke in a way that wasn't considered 00:18:12.009 --> 00:18:16.750 threatening or disrespectful. And I think that's 00:18:16.750 --> 00:18:19.170 what's unique about the situation because all 00:18:19.170 --> 00:18:24.269 of the other language from the crusading camp 00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:27.910 at this time, from the papacy, is very inflammatory 00:18:27.910 --> 00:18:32.089 and very insulting and, again, is not looking 00:18:32.089 --> 00:18:35.369 for some kind of peace or reconciliation. It's 00:18:35.369 --> 00:18:39.019 looking for the utter destruction. of Islam and 00:18:39.019 --> 00:18:43.660 its adherents. So Francis brings something else 00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:48.200 to this equation. The other half of that, though, 00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:52.480 is the person of the sultan himself. And I think 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.900 this is what people miss when they tell the story. 00:18:56.059 --> 00:18:58.359 I think it's quite frankly what a lot of friars 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:02.160 miss when they tell the story. So we tell the 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.119 story about Francis and the sultan, but really 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:08.009 we're telling the story of Francis. We're not 00:19:08.009 --> 00:19:37.890 telling the story of the Sultan. towards the 00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:40.890 earth, which I find fascinating. So there's a 00:19:40.890 --> 00:19:46.269 sophisticated science and astronomy behind this. 00:19:46.549 --> 00:19:49.990 He's an intelligent person. He's a literate person. 00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:54.829 And we know he is a spiritual person. What do 00:19:54.829 --> 00:19:58.490 I mean by that? We know that al -Malik al -Kamil 00:19:58.490 --> 00:20:03.230 is drawn to the mystical traditions in Islam 00:20:03.230 --> 00:20:08.680 called Sufism. We know that he had a particular 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:14.779 regard, affection for a poet named Ibn al -Farid, 00:20:15.059 --> 00:20:18.640 a direct contemporary of Francis. And we have 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.119 these actually amusing stories of the lengths 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:26.180 that al -Malik al -Kamil went to to try to meet 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:32.059 this poet, Ibn al -Farid. When we look at the 00:20:32.059 --> 00:20:39.759 poetry of Ibn al -Farid, I see there a lot of 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:44.220 commonalities with what we would identify as 00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:49.440 Franciscan spirituality. Ibn al -Fatih talks 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:55.740 about experiencing God through all the phenomenon 00:20:55.740 --> 00:21:00.319 of nature. He talks about the dew on the grass. 00:21:00.619 --> 00:21:05.230 He talks about the scent of flowers. the feel 00:21:05.230 --> 00:21:08.369 of walking in a field of flowers. And he says 00:21:08.369 --> 00:21:11.730 that all of these things are conveying his beloved 00:21:11.730 --> 00:21:16.390 to him. And he's talking about his God. So this 00:21:16.390 --> 00:21:22.410 is part of the spirituality of the sultan. And 00:21:22.410 --> 00:21:28.009 so I wonder, as the sultan listened to Francis, 00:21:28.250 --> 00:21:31.529 of course, speaking through interpreters, did 00:21:31.529 --> 00:21:36.210 the sultan think of... of his own Sufi poet, 00:21:36.450 --> 00:21:43.390 Ibn al -Fari. Was he thinking that this Franciscan 00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:48.150 guy, this Italian guy, is very much Sufi -like? 00:21:48.630 --> 00:21:52.569 Even in his appearance, if you think about Francis' 00:21:52.730 --> 00:21:56.390 appearing wearing a patched habit, and we know 00:21:56.390 --> 00:22:00.210 that Francis wore this habit where holes have 00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:03.799 been patched over. This is very much the garment 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.259 of the Sufis. They wear these patched garments. 00:22:07.420 --> 00:22:11.960 They are itinerant preachers living very simple 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:16.779 lives. So the sultan would have had an experience 00:22:16.779 --> 00:22:22.440 of Sufism, of this mystical tradition and Islam. 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:26.539 And I think that when Francis spoke, it actually 00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:33.319 evoked in the sultan his own spirituality through 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:37.400 his own faith, that is, of course, Islam. So 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:41.440 I think really the success of the encounter, 00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:43.700 and I do believe it was a successful encounter, 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:51.960 ultimately, is that two men of faith met and 00:22:51.960 --> 00:23:00.049 could see in the other a believer. Wow. Yeah. 00:23:00.170 --> 00:23:02.769 A couple questions about the meeting itself. 00:23:04.289 --> 00:23:08.549 The first one's really simple. This was bizarre, 00:23:08.789 --> 00:23:12.369 correct? I mean, it's not like Francis was some 00:23:12.369 --> 00:23:15.690 diplomat, you know, who was sent by Rome to go 00:23:15.690 --> 00:23:19.470 negotiate. I mean, he's kind of a weirdo, right? 00:23:19.809 --> 00:23:24.630 He goes on this journey. Yeah. He's a bit off 00:23:24.630 --> 00:23:28.930 the wall. I mean, he's off the wall in the simple 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:33.230 in the simple way that he's not talking about. 00:23:33.789 --> 00:23:37.529 Let's go kill. Yeah. That's a countercultural 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:39.730 aspect that you hit on at the beginning. Yeah, 00:23:39.789 --> 00:23:44.269 exactly. I mean, he's there in the midst of of 00:23:44.269 --> 00:23:47.930 warfare and everyone is trying to figure out 00:23:47.930 --> 00:23:52.470 how can we accomplish this task and then get 00:23:52.470 --> 00:23:56.640 out of here. Right. Let's win the battle. Let's 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.240 kill the people that we need to kill. And then 00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:00.960 we're out of here. Right. Because you're not 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:03.900 talking about a professional army per se. You're 00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:08.460 talking about volunteers, really. So, yeah, Francis 00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:12.279 is acting in a way that is at odds. It's at odds 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:28.819 with the church. this beast that has been described 00:24:28.819 --> 00:24:31.480 in the holy scriptures in the book of revelation 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:35.079 the beast marked with 666 which he identifies 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:40.380 i'm sorry to say with the prophet muhammad so 00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:44.859 francis is acting oddly he's acting counter -culturally 00:24:44.859 --> 00:24:47.519 he's acting you could say counter ecclesially 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:52.509 although francis doesn't make um make a scandal 00:24:52.509 --> 00:24:56.369 out of the fact that he is attempting to do what 00:24:56.369 --> 00:24:59.750 the church was not interested in doing. It was 00:24:59.750 --> 00:25:03.210 only begrudgingly that the papal legate Cardinal 00:25:03.210 --> 00:25:08.089 Pelagius allowed Francis to cross the enemy lines 00:25:08.089 --> 00:25:22.599 to meet with the sultan. convert the sultan. 00:25:22.900 --> 00:25:32.059 Is that true? I think Francis's motivation was 00:25:32.059 --> 00:25:36.140 for evangelization because Francis evangelized. 00:25:36.220 --> 00:25:40.259 His primary evangelization was amongst Christians, 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:45.019 right? He's calling people to lead a more authentically 00:25:45.019 --> 00:25:47.900 Christian life in the manner of Jesus Christ. 00:25:48.460 --> 00:25:54.599 So Francis was an evangelist. He's going to evangelize 00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:57.960 wherever he was. That's who he was. Yeah. Right. 00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:02.839 So I don't think we should be surprised that 00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:06.420 that was Francis's motivation. I'm sure he felt 00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:10.200 that if the sultan converted to Christianity, 00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:13.279 became a Christian, we could bring an end to 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:17.730 this. Yeah. Besides, Francis is a man of the 00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:21.450 Middle Ages. He's not a Vatican II Catholic, 00:26:21.630 --> 00:26:26.410 right? He doesn't know most of the etate. Right? 00:26:28.170 --> 00:26:31.609 I mean, we have to think realistically about 00:26:31.609 --> 00:26:34.190 Francis. Francis is a man of the Middle Ages. 00:26:34.410 --> 00:26:37.549 He has been taught all of his life. The only 00:26:37.549 --> 00:26:41.269 means of salvation is through your faith in Jesus 00:26:41.269 --> 00:26:44.109 Christ in the one holy Roman Catholic Church. 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:48.380 period, right? So anyone who is not in communion 00:26:48.380 --> 00:26:52.779 with the church, anathema est, they are consigned 00:26:52.779 --> 00:26:57.900 to the flames of hell. Certainly that was, I 00:26:57.900 --> 00:27:00.940 have no doubt that that was his motivation. He's 00:27:00.940 --> 00:27:03.799 going to preach because he always preached. He 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:07.539 preached to the birds, to the fish, right? He 00:27:07.539 --> 00:27:10.680 preached to everything and everyone. So I think 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:12.640 the fish was Anthony, but Francis preached to 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:19.720 the birds. I think his motivation was to evangelize. 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:25.819 I think he expected that he would be killed. 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:28.400 That's what I was going to ask you about next 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.140 is where does martyrdom come into play here? 00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:35.619 I don't think he sought martyrdom. I think that's 00:27:35.619 --> 00:27:41.599 hagiography. I think within the context of the 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.839 Middle Ages. Good and holy people sought martyrdom 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.559 wherever they could find it. That was the mark 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:53.259 of holiness. To be killed for your faith. I think 00:27:53.259 --> 00:27:56.579 he probably expected it. Remember that Francis 00:27:56.579 --> 00:28:00.839 has no knowledge of Islam. He has no knowledge 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.160 of Muslims. He only knows what he's been told 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:08.599 by the church. by people who had come back from 00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:13.079 the Crusades, etc. So he's listening to all of 00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:17.980 this very prejudicial, inflammatory speech about 00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:22.940 these people who are amongst the evil of the 00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:27.200 world, etc., etc., etc. He knows that there have 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:31.799 been Christian martyrs in Islamic lands. So he 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:35.839 probably thought, okay, I'm going to go and preach 00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:38.980 the gospel of Jesus Christ. If I lose my life, 00:28:39.099 --> 00:28:45.960 so be it. Of course, I think he was trying to 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:48.880 bring about some kind of peaceful resolution. 00:28:50.180 --> 00:28:54.400 Everything about this man, everything that we 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:56.759 know about Francis before going to Egypt says 00:28:56.759 --> 00:29:01.450 this is a man who tries to end conflict, not 00:29:01.450 --> 00:29:06.210 foster conflict, to bring people together rather 00:29:06.210 --> 00:29:09.950 than separate people. So I think he felt that 00:29:09.950 --> 00:29:12.730 in some way, shape, or form, he could be instrumental 00:29:12.730 --> 00:29:18.950 in bringing peace. The outcome, I think, is that 00:29:18.950 --> 00:29:25.210 Francis and the Sultan see in one another people 00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:29.250 of real faith. And I think when we talk about 00:29:30.029 --> 00:29:32.569 the conversion of the sultan, I think Francis 00:29:32.569 --> 00:29:37.450 himself was converted, that his kind of spiritual 00:29:37.450 --> 00:29:42.829 horizons were expanded, perhaps blown open by 00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:47.750 what he heard coming from his Muslim hosts, from 00:29:47.750 --> 00:29:50.490 the sultan and perhaps the people around him 00:29:50.490 --> 00:29:53.250 as well. This was the first time that Francis 00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:59.250 would have spoken to a Muslim and probably I 00:29:59.250 --> 00:30:02.410 would think that the sultan spoke to Francis 00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:06.210 about his own faith as much as Francis spoke 00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:09.630 about his faith. So I think it was really a meeting 00:30:09.630 --> 00:30:14.569 of hearts and minds that the two looked at one 00:30:14.569 --> 00:30:18.289 another, listened to one another, listened to 00:30:18.289 --> 00:30:21.789 one another, and heard something they hadn't 00:30:21.789 --> 00:30:26.250 expected. That's very well put. Do we know how 00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:29.410 many days they spent together? We don't. The 00:30:29.410 --> 00:30:31.829 accounts are inconsistent. You know, it could 00:30:31.829 --> 00:30:34.349 be a couple of days, a couple of weeks. We don't 00:30:34.349 --> 00:30:40.750 know. So, yeah, there's there's a lot of room 00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:44.369 there. Yeah. For interpretation and understanding. 00:30:45.009 --> 00:30:49.210 But I truly well, we know this had an impact 00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:51.750 on Francis. We know this had an impact on Francis 00:30:51.750 --> 00:30:56.250 because of Francis's writings after his return. 00:30:57.099 --> 00:31:02.160 To to Italy. Can you get into that? Yeah. Yeah. 00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:07.599 So, of course, Francis, when he gets back from 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:14.650 from his time in Egypt, he is not there. apparently, 00:31:14.750 --> 00:31:20.470 when the city of Damietta falls. He probably 00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:23.450 takes off after. He's not interested in seeing 00:31:23.450 --> 00:31:27.349 the spoils of war or any of that. So he returns 00:31:27.349 --> 00:31:31.829 to Italy and writes his earlier, what we call 00:31:31.829 --> 00:31:35.329 the earlier rule for the friars, the rule of 00:31:35.329 --> 00:31:41.170 1221. And in that rule, of course, is a chapter 00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:46.420 on the friars who go on mission to Muslim lands, 00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:51.019 right? So this is a very important aspect of 00:31:51.019 --> 00:31:58.000 the life of a friar minor. And Francis writes 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:03.539 in chapter 16 of the rule, as for the brothers 00:32:03.539 --> 00:32:09.029 who go, They can live spiritually among the Saracens, 00:32:09.029 --> 00:32:11.769 that is the Muslims, and non -believers in two 00:32:11.769 --> 00:32:17.750 ways. One way is not to engage in arguments or 00:32:17.750 --> 00:32:24.089 disputes, but to be subject to every human creature 00:32:24.089 --> 00:32:29.349 for God's sake. The other way is to announce 00:32:29.349 --> 00:32:34.700 the word of God when they see It pleases the 00:32:34.700 --> 00:32:40.660 Lord. Now, that's really fascinating. It's fascinating 00:32:40.660 --> 00:32:45.599 because Francis' first admonition here to friar 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:49.900 missionaries is, when you are amongst the Muslims, 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:57.440 don't engage in argumentation. You're not having 00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:01.809 a theological debate. OK, you're not engaging 00:33:01.809 --> 00:33:05.690 in some kind of scholastic academic exercise. 00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:10.029 That's not what the friar minor is to do when 00:33:10.029 --> 00:33:14.789 he's on mission. And he uses language that, again, 00:33:14.910 --> 00:33:18.430 is in contrast to the language of the church 00:33:18.430 --> 00:33:22.130 where Francis says, be subject to every human 00:33:22.130 --> 00:33:25.970 creature for God's sake. That is against the 00:33:25.970 --> 00:33:30.890 church's. A Christian should not be subject to 00:33:30.890 --> 00:33:34.529 Muslims, says the church. And yet Francis is 00:33:34.529 --> 00:33:40.009 saying, your way of evangelizing, your way of 00:33:40.009 --> 00:33:44.029 preaching the gospel, is by the manner in which 00:33:44.029 --> 00:33:49.250 you relate to people, relate to the Muslims as 00:33:49.250 --> 00:33:53.769 someone who is subject and servant to them. And 00:33:53.769 --> 00:34:01.700 he says, You announce the word of God when you 00:34:01.700 --> 00:34:05.119 see that it pleases the Lord. In other words, 00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:09.639 that requires discernment. That requires discernment. 00:34:09.659 --> 00:34:11.940 You're not simply to start shooting off your 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:14.260 mouth. That's what the friars in Morocco did, 00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:18.059 and they lost their lives for it. Francis is 00:34:18.059 --> 00:34:23.059 talking about witnessing to his gospel call by 00:34:23.059 --> 00:34:28.360 the way he relates to people. And, I mean, let's 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:30.699 face it, he's a man of the gospel, he wants to 00:34:30.699 --> 00:34:36.019 preach, but he's going to preach through discernment, 00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:40.179 by going through a process of discernment, and 00:34:40.179 --> 00:34:44.320 by preaching in a way that is going to build 00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:49.199 the kingdom of God, not tear it apart. And certainly 00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:53.900 using inflammatory, disrespectful language is 00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:56.889 not the way Francis... interacted with people, 00:34:57.030 --> 00:35:00.170 even with people that he disagreed with. That's 00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:05.590 not Francis's way of relating to people. Yeah. 00:35:06.969 --> 00:35:09.250 You're a scholar, so I'd be remiss if I didn't 00:35:09.250 --> 00:35:12.389 ask you this, but have you ever seen that quote 00:35:12.389 --> 00:35:15.789 from Francis? And I'm not sure. I'd have to go 00:35:15.789 --> 00:35:18.010 back and look. I came across it in my studies 00:35:18.010 --> 00:35:21.489 at FST, but he says something along the lines 00:35:21.489 --> 00:35:26.139 of, I want to gather up all the names of God 00:35:26.139 --> 00:35:30.579 and place them in the holiest places. And is 00:35:30.579 --> 00:35:33.880 that a reference to Islam or is that too far 00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:38.639 of a scholastic kind of leap? I think I know 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:41.260 what you're talking about. So there is a story 00:35:41.260 --> 00:35:46.659 about Francis who is picking up scraps of paper. 00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:52.739 And someone asks him, why are you doing this? 00:35:52.820 --> 00:35:57.960 These are the writings of the pagans. And pagan 00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:03.699 is a medieval term for Muslims, actually. And 00:36:03.699 --> 00:36:11.380 Francis says that where the name of God is written, 00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:14.880 it is to be revered even if it's amongst the 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:18.119 writings of the pagans. So for Francis, there 00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:23.579 is something, there is a faith that transcends 00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:29.340 differences. Yeah, it's beautiful. You hit on 00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:32.519 this a little bit earlier. You have a PhD in 00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:35.119 Islamic studies, and you're the director of the 00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:37.780 Center for Arab and Islamic Studies at St. Bonaventure 00:36:37.780 --> 00:36:40.659 University. And you got into something really 00:36:40.659 --> 00:36:44.139 important, and that is how Sultan Malik al -Kamil 00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:47.760 often gets left out of this, and we just focus 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.539 so much on Francis. So I'm curious, how has your 00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:57.059 study of Islam enriched this story for you? Yeah, 00:36:57.179 --> 00:37:02.099 I think it's, well, in a number of ways. And 00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:05.260 this is a project that I've been working on, 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:08.320 so I'll share it with your audience. Please. 00:37:12.059 --> 00:37:15.699 notion that Francis comes up with, or this MO, 00:37:15.940 --> 00:37:19.679 this tactic that Francis comes up with in his 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:23.480 rule where he says, do not engage in arguments 00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:32.340 or disputes. There is a verse in the Quran which 00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:38.159 instructs Muslims not to engage in arguments 00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:40.460 with the peoples of the book, that is, with Jews 00:37:40.460 --> 00:37:45.360 and Christians. But say to them, we believe in 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:47.739 that which has been revealed to us and which 00:37:47.739 --> 00:37:50.760 has been revealed to you, to our God and your 00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:55.739 God. He is one. And to him do we submit. So in 00:37:55.739 --> 00:38:00.840 Islam, you have this idea of you don't really 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:04.460 build a community of believers by haranguing 00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:07.619 people and insulting them and threatening them 00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:10.539 with hellfire and damnation. I mean, you know, 00:38:10.539 --> 00:38:14.900 that's one tactic, I suppose. But isn't it a 00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:18.639 better tactic to invite people into conversation 00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:24.659 where they don't feel threatened, but meet you 00:38:24.659 --> 00:38:26.860 at a very different level? I think this is what 00:38:26.860 --> 00:38:30.659 happened between Francis and the Sultan. Francis 00:38:30.659 --> 00:38:37.019 was not there to negotiate a peace treaty. He 00:38:37.019 --> 00:38:40.139 was not there to hammer out details about who 00:38:40.139 --> 00:38:42.760 would have what land and whatnot. He's there 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:48.539 as a man of faith. And he speaks as a man of 00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:51.239 faith. He's not speaking as a politician. He's 00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:53.579 not speaking as a diplomat. He's not speaking 00:38:53.579 --> 00:38:58.000 really as an agent of the church. That was Cardinal 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:02.400 Pelagius. Francis is simply a man of faith. who 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:07.260 wants to share the good news, who wants to build, 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:12.960 you could say, the human fraternity. So he's 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:17.280 going to speak in a way that is going to invite 00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:21.519 the sultan into the conversation. And I think 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.039 the sultan is going to do the same thing. The 00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:28.300 sultan knows Christianity. He has Christians 00:39:28.300 --> 00:39:33.829 within the sultanate. I mean, that's clear. But 00:39:33.829 --> 00:39:41.230 Francis is presenting his faith in a way that 00:39:41.230 --> 00:39:45.550 is familiar to the sultan because of the sultan's 00:39:45.550 --> 00:39:51.449 own love and admiration for the mystical traditions 00:39:51.449 --> 00:39:55.349 in Islam. And Francis really, I think, evoked 00:39:55.349 --> 00:40:03.659 for him the poetry, the voice of Muslim mystics. 00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:11.519 Yeah, I did not know that background of his love 00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.400 for that literature, Malik al -Kamil. I mean, 00:40:14.420 --> 00:40:18.519 nor did I know about the peace deals that he 00:40:18.519 --> 00:40:21.840 offered after this meeting took place. I mean... 00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:24.340 My goodness, there's something kind of maddening 00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:28.820 about that. Maybe this language is too severe, 00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.559 but it's like the church was just hell -bent 00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:37.039 on this genocide almost. He's open to giving 00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:39.440 the holy city back, and still they're saying, 00:40:39.500 --> 00:40:41.880 no, we need to wipe you from the face of the 00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:46.449 earth. Exactly. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. Exactly. I 00:40:46.449 --> 00:40:49.670 mean, the sultan, first of all, is very practical, 00:40:49.809 --> 00:40:53.369 too. He's facing challenges within his own court. 00:40:53.530 --> 00:40:57.869 He's got many brothers. He's got more brothers 00:40:57.869 --> 00:41:00.150 than he needs because all of his brothers are 00:41:00.150 --> 00:41:03.010 ambitious and are looking to carve out their 00:41:03.010 --> 00:41:06.690 own kingdom from his. So he's kind of watching 00:41:06.690 --> 00:41:11.050 his back. He's worried about being overthrown. 00:41:11.190 --> 00:41:14.630 There was a plot to overthrow him. So he's worried 00:41:14.630 --> 00:41:17.849 about his own position within the Sultanate. 00:41:17.889 --> 00:41:24.150 And his concern is really with his brothers in 00:41:24.150 --> 00:41:28.809 the remainder of the Sultanate. And so al -Malik 00:41:28.809 --> 00:41:30.949 al -Kamil wants to bring this to a conclusion. 00:41:31.389 --> 00:41:34.730 He doesn't want this to drag on. He has no interest 00:41:34.730 --> 00:41:37.820 in it. There's nothing for him to gain. uh from 00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:44.079 this conflict yeah gotcha yeah um well you've 00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.760 done an incredible job of kind of contextualizing 00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:51.449 all of this for our listeners um i mean For me, 00:41:51.469 --> 00:41:54.130 this has taken on even more dimensions, just 00:41:54.130 --> 00:41:57.650 learning more about the Sultan's story and his 00:41:57.650 --> 00:42:03.030 actions after this meeting. I didn't know about 00:42:03.030 --> 00:42:06.630 his affinity for Sufism. I mean, this is beautiful 00:42:06.630 --> 00:42:11.250 stuff. Now to kind of cross that bridge to today. 00:42:11.510 --> 00:42:15.210 I mean, this story has been used as a model for 00:42:15.210 --> 00:42:18.590 inter -religious dialogue. It's been used as 00:42:18.590 --> 00:42:22.409 a model for peacemaking. What do you take from 00:42:22.409 --> 00:42:27.489 it with your background in Islamic studies? I 00:42:27.489 --> 00:42:33.570 think what Francis really reflects, what Francis 00:42:33.570 --> 00:42:40.250 and the Sultan reflect for us, in 1219, is something 00:42:40.250 --> 00:42:45.030 that the church would only realize with the Second 00:42:45.030 --> 00:42:48.429 Vatican Council, with Nostra Aetate in 1965. 00:42:49.409 --> 00:42:54.090 I think there's a line that you can draw between 00:42:54.090 --> 00:43:00.309 from this marvelous encounter in 1219 to the 00:43:00.309 --> 00:43:04.309 promulgation of Nostra Aetate in 1965, because 00:43:04.309 --> 00:43:10.440 it took until 1965, for the church to finally 00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:17.000 see the goodness that exists in Islam, the commonalities 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:20.980 that Muslims and Christians have, the common 00:43:20.980 --> 00:43:25.840 values that we share, as well as common elements 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:31.960 in our faith. It's remarkable. Yeah, I mean, 00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:34.719 I think there's a true impact. Now, some people 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:38.139 have looked at, you may have heard this, some 00:43:38.139 --> 00:43:41.420 people look at Nostra Aetate and say, well, behind 00:43:41.420 --> 00:43:46.539 this are the words of Louis Massignon, who was 00:43:46.539 --> 00:43:50.820 a Franciscan tertiary as well as an Islamic scholar. 00:43:52.570 --> 00:43:54.889 Louis Massignon has this Franciscan background. 00:43:54.969 --> 00:43:58.269 He's got a knowledge of Islam. And so we think 00:43:58.269 --> 00:44:00.869 that perhaps his voice, if not his actual words, 00:44:01.110 --> 00:44:08.170 go into Nostra Aetate and really reflect for 00:44:08.170 --> 00:44:12.329 the church in the 20th century what Francis had 00:44:12.329 --> 00:44:14.969 modeled at the beginning of the 13th century. 00:44:16.130 --> 00:44:18.610 Yeah, you've really brought this to relevance 00:44:18.610 --> 00:44:23.679 for us on a church level. What about in an American 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:27.119 context? I mean, we hear the words all the time 00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:30.320 about this polarized, divided time that we're 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:35.000 navigating. Do you see this story being a benefit 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:40.199 to the trials that we're encountering today as 00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:43.880 Americans in our dialogue, in our debate? Yeah, 00:44:43.900 --> 00:44:49.739 I think it's important. And again, if we think 00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:53.119 about Francis's context, he's hearing horrible 00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:57.639 things said about Muslims. He's hearing calls 00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:02.639 for war, for violence, for murder, etc. And he's 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:12.800 able to set that aside and enter into a personal 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:18.860 encounter and see that person. As a brother, 00:45:19.059 --> 00:45:22.960 someone who, like he, was created in the image 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:25.980 and likeness of God and who believes in that 00:45:25.980 --> 00:45:31.400 one God. So isn't that a struggle that so many 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:36.599 of us face? We have to kind of shut our ears 00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:44.239 to the prejudices and the ugliness spoken by 00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:49.900 people who express hate. rather than people who 00:45:49.900 --> 00:45:56.820 express faith in the God who created every human 00:45:56.820 --> 00:46:01.659 being and everything in an outpouring of love? 00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:08.579 And shouldn't we then be able to see that God 00:46:08.579 --> 00:46:14.019 in the creation and in one another? I think that's 00:46:14.019 --> 00:46:23.380 really the value of this story for not only our 00:46:23.380 --> 00:46:27.480 country, but for around the world, because this 00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:35.340 kind of sectarian tension and violence is not 00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:39.099 an American problem alone. We see it around the 00:46:39.099 --> 00:46:42.280 world. I certainly see it when I travel. Um, 00:46:42.579 --> 00:46:47.699 so I think that's the value. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:51.960 it's a, it's a tale as old as time, this rallying 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:58.460 cry to kind of galvanize your forces around the 00:46:58.460 --> 00:47:02.739 demonization over another group of people, you 00:47:02.739 --> 00:47:06.380 know, and the, the path that Francis and the 00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:11.130 Sultan took like that is. That is a path that 00:47:11.130 --> 00:47:15.150 you don't campaign on that path. You know what 00:47:15.150 --> 00:47:18.650 I'm saying? That's complex. It's nuanced. It 00:47:18.650 --> 00:47:21.449 involves relationship. It involves really seeing 00:47:21.449 --> 00:47:26.429 the goodness and beauty in one another. Yeah, 00:47:26.449 --> 00:47:31.329 I mean, in Assisi, this really struck me on my 00:47:31.329 --> 00:47:36.179 visit there. I loved how... Right outside the 00:47:36.179 --> 00:47:39.280 Basilica of St. Francis, there's that bell that 00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:42.420 you can ring. And around the bell is every major 00:47:42.420 --> 00:47:45.880 religious symbol in the world. And it's just, 00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:51.300 yeah, it's a beautiful symbol of what this could 00:47:51.300 --> 00:47:57.019 be if we dared to see God in one another, even 00:47:57.019 --> 00:47:59.579 in people who we vehemently may disagree with. 00:48:01.420 --> 00:48:04.820 I think, you know, I just taught a class on the 00:48:04.820 --> 00:48:07.760 Second Vatican Council, Nos Reitate, and I spoke 00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:10.340 to my students about this because they were really, 00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:12.639 really interested. Like, how is it that after 00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:19.340 so many centuries of vitriol on behalf of the 00:48:19.340 --> 00:48:22.840 church towards Muslims that the church can make 00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:28.780 this transition to a much more respectful tone? 00:48:29.820 --> 00:48:33.260 And it's a very good question, but I think part 00:48:33.260 --> 00:48:40.179 of it is at least that the church was able to 00:48:40.179 --> 00:48:45.360 see and encourage the faithful to see goodness 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:50.780 in the world. And if you see goodness in other 00:48:50.780 --> 00:48:55.579 people, you have to ask yourself, where does 00:48:55.579 --> 00:48:59.320 that goodness come from? And I think there's 00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:03.840 only one answer to that. It comes from God. If 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.360 you see goodness in another person, in another 00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.920 faith tradition, which is what Vatican II says, 00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:14.019 the Vatican Council looks at Islam and says there 00:49:14.019 --> 00:49:21.019 is goodness here. That goodness can only have 00:49:21.019 --> 00:49:28.630 a divine source. Wow. Then you really blow open 00:49:28.630 --> 00:49:33.309 your anthropology big time. Then you see that 00:49:33.309 --> 00:49:39.309 God, I mean, speaking in Christian terms, incarnates 00:49:39.309 --> 00:49:45.170 God's self in the world, in everyone and in everything 00:49:45.170 --> 00:49:51.090 that is created. Now, that would resonate in 00:49:51.090 --> 00:49:56.769 Islam without the incarnation language. The Quran 00:49:56.769 --> 00:50:03.269 speaks about signs, that God provides humanity 00:50:03.269 --> 00:50:09.530 with signs that point to God. So what are the 00:50:09.530 --> 00:50:14.650 signs? The creation itself. You want to know 00:50:14.650 --> 00:50:19.699 God? You will know God in some way, shape, or 00:50:19.699 --> 00:50:23.840 form simply by observing the signs of nature, 00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:28.340 the changing of night into day and day into night, 00:50:28.500 --> 00:50:32.239 the sun coming up, the clouds that sail between 00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:35.559 heaven and earth, the rain that comes down. The 00:50:35.559 --> 00:50:39.559 Quran says these are signs for a people who understand. 00:50:40.900 --> 00:50:45.110 What are other signs? The prophets. The fact 00:50:45.110 --> 00:50:49.309 that God sends prophets to humanity to teach 00:50:49.309 --> 00:50:54.409 us, to exhort us, that's a sign of God's presence 00:50:54.409 --> 00:50:58.869 with us. Divine revelation is a sign. All of 00:50:58.869 --> 00:51:02.730 these things that God sends to us are signs. 00:51:02.869 --> 00:51:06.590 We are signs to one another. If we are good people 00:51:06.590 --> 00:51:10.369 of faith, we are signs to one another. I have 00:51:10.369 --> 00:51:15.329 said that my Muslim friends... will be in heaven, 00:51:15.469 --> 00:51:18.849 in paradise, in Jannah, a long time I will, because 00:51:18.849 --> 00:51:21.789 they are good and holy people. They are good 00:51:21.789 --> 00:51:27.610 and holy people. And that is ultimately the measure. 00:51:28.230 --> 00:51:31.769 How does God measure us? By what we call ourselves? 00:51:32.150 --> 00:51:34.110 Well, I may call myself a Catholic, but I may 00:51:34.110 --> 00:51:39.170 not be a very good Catholic. But God will know 00:51:39.170 --> 00:51:44.800 the love in my heart. for him, for my fellow 00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:48.659 human beings, for the creation. And it's on that 00:51:48.659 --> 00:51:52.679 belief, on that faith, on the way we treat one 00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:54.960 another, the way we treat every living thing, 00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:58.980 every created thing. That's the basis on which 00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:04.440 God will judge us. I firmly believe that. Yeah, 00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:08.239 what you're getting into, I mean, it makes me 00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:12.480 think of this incredible story again, where it, 00:52:12.989 --> 00:52:18.730 It is so weird to me that in this story of Francis 00:52:18.730 --> 00:52:22.489 and the Sultan, on one level, you have religion 00:52:22.489 --> 00:52:26.750 at its worst, religions at war with each other, 00:52:26.869 --> 00:52:31.510 and the papacy literally calling Christian Europeans 00:52:31.510 --> 00:52:36.230 to genocide, essentially, in the name of religion, 00:52:36.409 --> 00:52:39.510 in the name of God. And then in this... personal, 00:52:39.510 --> 00:52:42.369 intimate encounter between the Francis and the 00:52:42.369 --> 00:52:44.929 Sultan, you have religion at its best, where 00:52:44.929 --> 00:52:48.150 you could argue that because of Francis's faith 00:52:48.150 --> 00:52:52.329 and Sultan Malik al -Kamil's faith, their ability 00:52:52.329 --> 00:52:56.190 to see goodness in one another, that faith is 00:52:56.190 --> 00:52:58.849 one of the things that helped them to open their 00:52:58.849 --> 00:53:01.239 eyes. to the beauty and goodness of the other. 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:04.000 I don't really have a question there. It's just, 00:53:04.019 --> 00:53:07.559 the story is just a really crazy collision to 00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:11.039 me of, you know, religion has done such terrible, 00:53:11.219 --> 00:53:13.760 you know, such evils in this world through history. 00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:16.639 True. But then you also have this encounter where 00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:20.400 their faith is making the way for something that 00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:23.880 is incredibly counter -cultural. I don't know. 00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:26.400 It's very interesting to me. Yeah. I would, I 00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:29.289 would. I agree with you 100%. I would change 00:53:29.289 --> 00:53:32.309 your language just a little bit. Religions don't 00:53:32.309 --> 00:53:34.809 battle one another. Religions don't hate one 00:53:34.809 --> 00:53:39.010 another. It's people who claim those faith traditions 00:53:39.010 --> 00:53:44.750 that get into conflict. I think that's a difference 00:53:44.750 --> 00:53:49.750 there. I think that we human beings who are flawed 00:53:49.750 --> 00:54:00.070 express our faith better. And worse, we don't 00:54:00.070 --> 00:54:05.269 often reflect the fullness of our faith and we 00:54:05.269 --> 00:54:11.570 get into conflicts. But it's people who claim 00:54:11.570 --> 00:54:14.130 a faith tradition that get into faiths, not the 00:54:14.130 --> 00:54:16.849 faith traditions themselves. Christianity and 00:54:16.849 --> 00:54:21.570 Islam don't... get into conflict with one another. 00:54:21.730 --> 00:54:24.409 People who profess to be Christians get into 00:54:24.409 --> 00:54:26.570 conflict with people who profess to be Muslims. 00:54:26.809 --> 00:54:29.130 That's the way I would describe it. You know, 00:54:29.230 --> 00:54:34.010 it brings me back to one of my favorite quotes, 00:54:34.210 --> 00:54:38.289 if you will. You're probably too young to remember 00:54:38.289 --> 00:54:42.949 Bill Moyers, a great, great journalist who interviewed 00:54:42.949 --> 00:54:48.739 a lot of great scholars and artists. And he did 00:54:48.739 --> 00:54:53.000 an interview with Maya Angelou, the great African 00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:58.599 -American poet. And he asked her what faith she 00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:04.500 followed. And she paused and she said, I aspire 00:55:04.500 --> 00:55:09.920 to be Christian. Now, I thought that was the 00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:14.460 most honest answer anyone could give about their 00:55:14.460 --> 00:55:18.619 religious identity. I aspire to be a Christian. 00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:20.980 You know, people walk around saying, I'm Christian, 00:55:21.099 --> 00:55:23.699 I'm Catholic, I'm Muslim, I'm Buddhist, I'm Hindu, 00:55:23.860 --> 00:55:31.059 I'm Sikh, whatever. Are you? Are we? Can I authentically 00:55:31.059 --> 00:55:36.179 call myself a Christian if I don't act in a Christ 00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:40.789 -like manner? That's what I'm getting to. That 00:55:40.789 --> 00:55:45.050 historically, and all religious traditions go 00:55:45.050 --> 00:55:51.869 through this, where people who are not good representatives 00:55:51.869 --> 00:55:54.750 of that faith tradition claim it a little bit 00:55:54.750 --> 00:55:59.170 too much. And then we identify that faith tradition 00:55:59.170 --> 00:56:06.170 with an imperfect expression of it. Yeah. My 00:56:06.170 --> 00:56:08.489 editor, Chris Heffron at St. Anthony Messenger, 00:56:08.789 --> 00:56:12.670 he had a question for you. We got into this a 00:56:12.670 --> 00:56:14.849 little bit in our conversation, but I think it's 00:56:14.849 --> 00:56:18.630 a really important aspect of the story. So switching 00:56:18.630 --> 00:56:22.210 gears here a little bit as we conclude, his question 00:56:22.210 --> 00:56:25.010 was, how does the meeting between Francis and 00:56:25.010 --> 00:56:27.909 the Sultan inform our own internal divisions? 00:56:28.730 --> 00:56:32.949 And I was kind of thinking about that, and it 00:56:32.949 --> 00:56:37.730 does seem to me that we can build peace outwardly, 00:56:37.730 --> 00:56:41.550 but we first have to have peace on an internal 00:56:41.550 --> 00:56:44.409 level. And I'm just wondering what this story 00:56:44.409 --> 00:56:48.010 can teach us about, you know, how can this model 00:56:48.010 --> 00:56:50.150 that we're given in this story help to build 00:56:50.150 --> 00:56:52.789 peace in our own hearts? Because there's something 00:56:52.789 --> 00:56:55.510 really interesting happening on an individual 00:56:55.510 --> 00:57:00.170 level with Francis and the Sultan because of... 00:57:03.829 --> 00:57:15.150 Yeah, I speak very personally here. So I am a 00:57:15.150 --> 00:57:19.030 scholar of Islam, so I'm steeped in things Islamic 00:57:19.030 --> 00:57:27.519 24 -7. But not only. So I have a... background 00:57:27.519 --> 00:57:34.179 in scripture. So I'm well acquainted with the 00:57:34.179 --> 00:57:36.400 Hebrew scriptures, of course, as well as the 00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:39.340 Christian scriptures, as well as the Quran. But 00:57:39.340 --> 00:57:42.820 I've also traveled quite a bit in South Asia 00:57:42.820 --> 00:57:47.820 and have seen expressions of Hinduism and Sikhism. 00:57:48.519 --> 00:57:55.000 So I've had a good exposure to various religions. 00:57:56.310 --> 00:58:02.570 And I allow them all to speak to me. I allow 00:58:02.570 --> 00:58:08.949 them to become part of me in some way, shape, 00:58:09.030 --> 00:58:12.769 or form. Again, this is what the church was teaching 00:58:12.769 --> 00:58:17.630 at the Second Vatican Council with this understanding 00:58:17.630 --> 00:58:20.510 that wherever there is good, it's got to be of 00:58:20.510 --> 00:58:25.349 God. And so my own life is enriched by people 00:58:25.349 --> 00:58:28.389 of different faiths. People get very nervous 00:58:28.389 --> 00:58:33.630 when they come up across a person from a different 00:58:33.630 --> 00:58:37.690 faith tradition. They somehow think they're going 00:58:37.690 --> 00:58:41.070 to lose their own faith. I find that my faith 00:58:41.070 --> 00:58:46.639 is amplified and enhanced. by my exposure to 00:58:46.639 --> 00:58:50.880 truly believing people, people who are good representatives 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:56.179 of their faith tradition, I find that so enriching. 00:58:56.559 --> 00:59:03.300 And it just, it makes me feel, I feel closer 00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:06.500 to God and I feel more appreciative and I feel 00:59:06.500 --> 00:59:11.900 more gratitude for those experiences. for the 00:59:11.900 --> 00:59:16.219 beauty of humanity in all its diversity. I mean, 00:59:16.260 --> 00:59:18.920 we've been talking quite a bit about religion, 00:59:18.940 --> 00:59:23.780 but it need not be only about religion, but about 00:59:23.780 --> 00:59:27.340 culture in every way, shape, or form. My life 00:59:27.340 --> 00:59:30.079 is enriched by learning another language. My 00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:33.340 life is enriched by partaking in different cultural 00:59:33.340 --> 00:59:37.780 practices. My life is enriched by meeting people 00:59:37.780 --> 00:59:40.079 from other countries and eating different kinds 00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:43.199 of food and reading different kinds of literature. 00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:52.280 So when I think about my God, the way I think 00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:59.239 of my God, of our God, I think of a God who has 00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:05.739 poured God's self out into the creation in so 01:00:05.739 --> 01:00:09.800 many ways so that there is nothing to prevent 01:00:09.800 --> 01:00:14.150 us from knowing that God. God has given us every 01:00:14.150 --> 01:00:19.050 avenue to know that God through the beauty and 01:00:19.050 --> 01:00:22.769 the bounty of the creation, through every created 01:00:22.769 --> 01:00:26.949 thing and through every creative endeavor that 01:00:26.949 --> 01:00:32.889 humanity makes. Through wonderful artwork, through 01:00:32.889 --> 01:00:36.769 the beauty of dance or sports for that matter. 01:00:36.829 --> 01:00:40.010 I mean, my God, we've all seen athletes and you 01:00:40.010 --> 01:00:43.840 think, wow. I mean, that is the most beautiful 01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:47.739 movement that I've ever seen, whatever sport 01:00:47.739 --> 01:00:50.619 you're talking about, right? I mean, it's easy 01:00:50.619 --> 01:00:53.500 to talk about the beauty of artwork. But when 01:00:53.500 --> 01:00:57.820 you talk about dance or some kind of athletic 01:00:57.820 --> 01:01:03.719 ability, I mean, that's representing some divine 01:01:03.719 --> 01:01:11.219 character to me. And I really think that's what 01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:13.980 faith is about. It's about opening our eyes, 01:01:14.199 --> 01:01:19.800 our hearts, our hands to the beauty in the other. 01:01:19.940 --> 01:01:25.820 Pope Francis was so good on this. He understood. 01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:42.230 God rest his soul. I get very emotional when 01:01:42.230 --> 01:01:44.510 I talk about Pope Francis because I think he 01:01:44.510 --> 01:01:48.170 was a great blessing to the church, particularly 01:01:48.170 --> 01:01:52.110 in terms of interreligious dialogue and interfaith 01:01:52.110 --> 01:01:57.489 work. And he said that the way of engaging in 01:01:57.489 --> 01:02:02.530 interreligious dialogue is to make a home for 01:02:02.530 --> 01:02:07.630 another. By receiving them in love and charity 01:02:07.630 --> 01:02:11.750 and opening our hearts to the other, that's interreligious 01:02:11.750 --> 01:02:15.150 dialogue. You can't engage in interreligious 01:02:15.150 --> 01:02:17.710 dialogue if the other person is fearing you. 01:02:18.269 --> 01:02:21.969 You have to open your heart, your hands, your 01:02:21.969 --> 01:02:27.070 life, your home to the other. And I really think 01:02:27.070 --> 01:02:34.489 that that comes from a place of deep faith. Yes. 01:02:34.489 --> 01:02:37.530 Yeah. Well, Father Michael, I think that is a 01:02:37.530 --> 01:02:41.190 wonderful place for us to conclude. Anything 01:02:41.190 --> 01:02:43.289 that I left out? Anything else you wanted to 01:02:43.289 --> 01:02:48.789 hit on with this remarkable story? I really appreciate 01:02:48.789 --> 01:02:51.949 the conversation. It's a story I love. It's the 01:02:51.949 --> 01:02:55.590 story that serves as the whole foundation for 01:02:55.590 --> 01:02:59.949 my Franciscan vocation. When I was discerning 01:02:59.949 --> 01:03:03.170 a vocation with the friars, it was this story 01:03:03.170 --> 01:03:09.250 in particular, because I had experience in Islam 01:03:09.250 --> 01:03:12.250 with Muslims before, and I thought, this is the 01:03:12.250 --> 01:03:17.989 foundation for my life as a friar. And it's a 01:03:17.989 --> 01:03:20.969 story that, as I said, continues to inspire me, 01:03:20.989 --> 01:03:24.210 and I believe it has the ability to inspire people 01:03:24.210 --> 01:03:27.420 of all different faith traditions. Yeah, I mean, 01:03:27.420 --> 01:03:32.159 it's for me as well. This is the story that really, 01:03:32.340 --> 01:03:37.320 for the lack of a better term, sold me on Franciscanism 01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:41.099 because I have an evangelical background and 01:03:41.099 --> 01:03:45.980 I just noticed. That no matter what community, 01:03:46.300 --> 01:03:49.059 and there are wonderful people in these communities, 01:03:49.139 --> 01:03:52.780 and I learned a lot from my days in evangelicalism. 01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:56.260 It really actually opened up my roots in Catholicism 01:03:56.260 --> 01:04:02.199 more for me. But I did notice that in these different 01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:04.340 church communities in which I belong, there was 01:04:04.340 --> 01:04:09.800 always this drift toward certainty. And even 01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:14.179 more so these days with politics kind of filling 01:04:14.179 --> 01:04:17.360 that religious void for a lot of people. So I 01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:19.719 would notice that, again, it's just language, 01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:22.260 but conservative evangelical churches would, 01:04:22.340 --> 01:04:25.179 you know, there was conservative political ideology 01:04:25.179 --> 01:04:27.800 permeating that space. Same thing in progressive 01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:30.159 Christianity is kind of in bed with politics 01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:32.760 at times. And not that all that is bad either, 01:04:32.840 --> 01:04:39.730 but this story constantly. invites me to see 01:04:39.730 --> 01:04:47.170 and experience Christ in the other. It's a very 01:04:47.170 --> 01:04:49.769 humbling story because it completely shatters 01:04:49.769 --> 01:04:54.949 everything that you thought to be true. Indeed. 01:04:55.329 --> 01:04:57.750 And you're like, nope, the person who's most 01:04:57.750 --> 01:05:00.170 different than you, that's your pathway to conversion. 01:05:00.530 --> 01:05:04.170 That person, that person's goodness, that person's 01:05:04.170 --> 01:05:07.769 faith. Let them teach you. Yeah. You know, so 01:05:07.769 --> 01:05:11.670 often, particularly younger people, but not only 01:05:11.670 --> 01:05:14.670 younger people, some older Catholics as well, 01:05:14.710 --> 01:05:18.610 will ask me, you know, in all of your time, you 01:05:18.610 --> 01:05:20.349 know, traveling in the Middle East and elsewhere, 01:05:20.650 --> 01:05:26.909 have you converted Muslims? You know, and my 01:05:26.909 --> 01:05:33.809 point is that before I can even imagine attempting 01:05:33.809 --> 01:05:37.949 to convert anyone, I have to undergo conversion 01:05:37.949 --> 01:05:43.429 myself. And I think self -conversion is the work 01:05:43.429 --> 01:05:47.690 of a lifetime. Yes. Yeah. One of my favorite 01:05:47.690 --> 01:05:50.710 philosophers these days, his name's Peter Rollins, 01:05:50.829 --> 01:05:54.710 and he had a project in Northern Ireland. And 01:05:54.710 --> 01:05:56.070 of course, they have a history there with the 01:05:56.070 --> 01:05:59.369 Troubles and everything. So similar dynamics 01:05:59.369 --> 01:06:02.590 on display there in this story. But he would 01:06:02.590 --> 01:06:08.230 organize evangelistic teams who typically, you 01:06:08.230 --> 01:06:10.570 know, with my evangelical background, you think 01:06:10.570 --> 01:06:13.210 you're going out to try to convert someone, but 01:06:13.210 --> 01:06:16.309 they would do the opposite. They would go out 01:06:16.309 --> 01:06:18.730 to community, religious communities that maybe 01:06:18.730 --> 01:06:20.730 had different beliefs than them. And they would 01:06:20.730 --> 01:06:24.230 ask the question, can you convert us? You know, 01:06:24.230 --> 01:06:27.610 tell, tell us what you see when you hear the 01:06:27.610 --> 01:06:30.849 name Christian, you know, what, what are we doing 01:06:30.849 --> 01:06:36.010 wrong? Like what, what in, That's my default 01:06:36.010 --> 01:06:40.210 kind of posture these days is, can I be more 01:06:40.210 --> 01:06:44.889 curious? Because I've learned that the more curious 01:06:44.889 --> 01:06:49.090 I can be, the more I get to experience God's 01:06:49.090 --> 01:06:52.769 goodness and grace and beauty in the diversity 01:06:52.769 --> 01:06:56.030 of the human experience and all of humanity itself. 01:06:56.969 --> 01:07:01.440 Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, something we 01:07:01.440 --> 01:07:04.739 didn't talk about, really, was what scholars 01:07:04.739 --> 01:07:08.440 believe is the impact of Islam on Francis, on 01:07:08.440 --> 01:07:12.650 Francis's writings beyond the rule. So, for example, 01:07:12.869 --> 01:07:17.570 what we call the prayer for Brother Leo, the 01:07:17.570 --> 01:07:22.710 praises of God, where Francis just gives a litany 01:07:22.710 --> 01:07:27.429 of God, you are love, you are majesty, you are 01:07:27.429 --> 01:07:32.679 holiness, you are etc., etc., etc. Scholars look 01:07:32.679 --> 01:07:36.420 at that and say, that's a very interesting form 01:07:36.420 --> 01:07:40.480 of prayer for a Christian, and it sounds an awful 01:07:40.480 --> 01:07:43.659 lot like what we call the beautiful names of 01:07:43.659 --> 01:07:49.340 God in Islam. So people wonder if that is an 01:07:49.340 --> 01:07:54.059 influence that Francis brought with him from 01:07:54.059 --> 01:07:58.679 Islam. There's the letter that Francis writes 01:07:58.679 --> 01:08:01.760 to the rulers of the peoples. Again, this is 01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:05.019 coming right after his trip from Egypt, his return 01:08:05.019 --> 01:08:10.840 from Egypt, where he exhorts rulers to establish 01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:15.420 some way of calling people to common prayer. 01:08:17.050 --> 01:08:20.149 Now, people are looking at this post -Egypt and 01:08:20.149 --> 01:08:23.170 saying, this is what we call the event in Islam, 01:08:23.329 --> 01:08:26.409 where you have a man calling people to prayer 01:08:26.409 --> 01:08:29.149 because Francis says, let there be some kind 01:08:29.149 --> 01:08:35.250 of an announcement made by a messenger. And so, 01:08:35.449 --> 01:08:39.869 you know, Franciscan scholars look at Francis's 01:08:39.869 --> 01:08:44.069 writings after Egypt and are able to say, these 01:08:44.069 --> 01:08:47.829 things sound an awful lot. like elements from 01:08:47.829 --> 01:08:53.670 Islam. Wow. Again, because Francis can look past 01:08:53.670 --> 01:08:59.130 the barriers and the distinctions that we set 01:08:59.130 --> 01:09:03.850 up in our minds and can see the goodness in the 01:09:03.850 --> 01:09:08.710 other. Beautiful, my friend. Well, thank you 01:09:08.710 --> 01:09:10.649 so much for your time. This has been such a joy. 01:09:11.210 --> 01:09:13.609 You're very welcome. Thank you so much for the 01:09:13.609 --> 01:09:21.520 conversation. Once again, that was Father Michael 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:24.640 Calabria. You can order his book, The Language 01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:27.439 of the Taj Mahal, on Amazon or wherever books 01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:30.600 are sold. You can also watch the two -part 2012 01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:33.680 documentary, Francis and the Sultan, on Franciscan 01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:36.760 Media's YouTube channel. I have linked to Father 01:09:36.760 --> 01:09:39.739 Michael's book, to his work, as well as to this 01:09:39.739 --> 01:09:42.020 documentary and other resources that align with 01:09:42.020 --> 01:09:45.060 this conversation in the show notes of this episode. 01:09:45.600 --> 01:09:48.359 So since there were no reflection segments this 01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:51.920 episode, I wanted to conclude this with a few 01:09:51.920 --> 01:09:55.199 quotes. And the first is from Nostra Aetate, 01:09:55.479 --> 01:09:58.600 the document that Father Michael referenced throughout 01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:03.659 this conversation. Quote, Likewise, other religions 01:10:03.659 --> 01:10:06.760 found everywhere try to counter the restlessness 01:10:06.760 --> 01:10:09.920 of the human heart, each in its own manner, by 01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:13.430 proposing ways comprising teachings. rules of 01:10:13.430 --> 01:10:17.390 life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects 01:10:17.390 --> 01:10:21.010 nothing that is true and holy in these religions. 01:10:21.350 --> 01:10:24.689 She regards with sincere reverence those ways 01:10:24.689 --> 01:10:28.029 of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings 01:10:28.029 --> 01:10:30.909 which, though differing in many aspects from 01:10:30.909 --> 01:10:33.850 the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless 01:10:33.850 --> 01:10:38.029 often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens 01:10:38.029 --> 01:10:43.859 all men." Next is this quote from Thomas of Chalana's 01:10:43.859 --> 01:11:09.390 biography on Francis, quote, And finally, I wanted 01:11:09.390 --> 01:11:11.670 to conclude with this quote from a talk Thomas 01:11:11.670 --> 01:11:16.750 Merton gave at Calcutta in October 1968. Quote, 01:11:16.770 --> 01:11:19.689 in the deepest level of communication is not 01:11:19.689 --> 01:11:23.909 communication, but communion. It is wordless. 01:11:24.170 --> 01:11:27.829 It is beyond words and is beyond speech and is 01:11:27.829 --> 01:11:31.350 beyond concept. Not that we discover a new unity. 01:11:31.550 --> 01:11:35.590 We discover an old unity. We discover an older 01:11:35.590 --> 01:11:39.689 unity. My dear brothers and sisters, we are already 01:11:39.689 --> 01:11:43.710 one, but we imagine that we are not, and what 01:11:43.710 --> 01:11:47.130 we have to discover is our original unity. What 01:11:47.130 --> 01:11:52.729 we have to be is what we are. End quote. Thank 01:11:52.729 --> 01:11:55.310 you as always for tuning in, for your support. 01:11:55.989 --> 01:11:57.869 Peace and all good.