Welcome to Off the Page. It's great to be with
you. For eight centuries, an improbable encounter
between St. Francis of Assisi and Sultan al -Malik
al -Kamil during the Fifth Crusade has been a
north star for inter -religious dialogue. Christians
tend to focus on Francis in this story, but the
Sultan's role is equally important, if not more
so. The unlikely beautiful relationship that
formed between these two men more than 800 years
ago can continue to be a model for peacemaking
and dialogue today in a world that seems as if
it is becoming increasingly polarized and divided.
You are in for a treat with this episode, and
I'm so thrilled to introduce to you our next
guest, Father Michael Calabria. a friar in our
Lady of Guadalupe Province and director of the
Center for Arab and Islamic Studies at St. Bonaventure
University. A few things about Father Michael.
His experience in the Middle East and the Islamic
world began more than 40 years ago when, as an
Egyptology student at Johns Hopkins University
and Brown University, he performed archaeological
work in Egypt. After studying library science
at Columbia and working as an academic librarian
in New York City, he entered the Franciscan Order
in 1996 and studied at Washington Theological
Union. As a friar, he lived in Cairo in 2001
to 2002, ministering in a leprosarium. In between
2003 to 2011, he spent many summers in Egypt
teaching English at a Coptic Catholic seminary
in Cairo. father michael became a professor at
saint bonaventure university in 2003 where he
began teaching courses in arabic and then islamic
studies after completing his doctorate in islamic
studies with the institute of arab and islamic
studies at the university of exeter in england
he inaugurated the center for arab and islamic
studies at saint bonaventure university where
he continues to teach today His 2022 book, The
Language of the Taj Mahal, analyzed the Quranic
inscriptions on India's iconic monument and was
featured in a recent documentary. Islam's Greatest
Stories of Love. He was also a contributor to
a 2016 documentary about St. Francis' meeting
with the sultan titled The Sultan and the Saint.
This conversation went a little longer, so I
have not provided reflection segments throughout
this episode. However, Father Michael says so
many thought -provoking things throughout the
conversation that I invite you to pause the episode
whenever something strikes you and to take some
time to allow it to sink in. deeper into your
heart. I've provided a few closing quotes at
the end of the episode to contemplate and meditate
upon. And as always, check out the show notes
of this episode for more resources and opportunities
to reflect on this episode's content. So without
further ado, here is our next guest, Father Michael
Calabria. Enjoy. Father Michael Calabria. Welcome
to Off the Page. Thank you. It's good to be with
you. So the story about St. Francis of Assisi
journeying to Egypt to meet the sultan, it's
a popular one. Can you begin by sharing this
story and then also providing some background
about what was happening during that time period?
Okay, how much time do we have now? As much as
you want. I love this story. It is a great story.
And it is, I think, an inspirational one, not
only for Franciscan friars, for the larger Franciscan
family, but indeed all people of faith. And it's
because Francis was acting in a way that was
what we would call today countercultural. So
just to give you some background, We're talking
about the early 13th century. The church is still
interested in reconquering Jerusalem. It, of
course, had defeated the Muslims, the Muslim
forces at Jerusalem in 1099, but had lost. lost
Jerusalem to Salah ad -Din in 1187, had lost
Jerusalem, but had not given up hope of taking
the city back. And so in 1213, Pope Innocent
III issues an encyclical called Quia Maior. because
it's important, is how we would translate that.
And he paints a rather apocalyptic view of the
world at the time. In his view, the world is
in the end times, and this is now the final battle
between the forces of good and evil. And he identifies
Islam as the beast spoken about in the book of
Revelation. So his language is rather inflammatory.
The text is rather harsh. I don't quote it often
because it's really tough language. And that
becomes the basis, that encyclical becomes the
basis for the Fifth Crusade at the Lateran Council.
The idea is to attack Egypt rather than attacking
Jerusalem first. Egypt is at this point part
of the Ayyubid Sultanate. That is the sultanate
that was established by Salah ad -Din. Cairo
is one of the major capitals of the Ayyubid Sultanate,
the other one being Damascus. So the Ayyubid
Sultanate extends its authority over Egypt, all
of Syria, Palestine, up north, really into what
is now northern Iraq and southern Turkey. So
it's a sultanate of considerable power, wealth,
and expanse. So the idea is to attack Egypt and
in this way rob the Sultanate of its economic
power. So the crusaders became very much aware
that part of their struggle was that the Sultanate
was a wealthy one. And as long as it had wealth,
it could keep up the fight. And so the object
of the crusade is the city of Damietta, which
is a port city on the Mediterranean in the northeastern
part of the Egyptian delta. And it is really
the gateway into Egypt and down to Cairo. And
all of the commercial trade in the eastern Mediterranean.
if you were having any dealings with the Ayyubids,
would pass through Damietta on way to Cairo by
the Nile. So the idea is if the crusaders can
capture Egypt, then they cut off the flow of
income to the Ayyubid sultanate and will therefore
be in a better position to seize Jerusalem. So
that's the foundation, if you will, of this crusade.
Okay, yeah. Now, I'm curious, the encyclical
that you mentioned was apocalyptic, I think is
the word you used. Yes. Did he raise the temperature
in the room, or was he kind of following what
previous popes had done in previous crusades?
I think that this raised the temperature quite
a bit because, again, he is trying to, of course,
inspire Christians to join the crusade. I mean,
there was no real draft unless you threatened
to excommunicate people, which occasionally the
papacy resorted to. But I think this was a really
concerted attempt to... gather support for this
crusade by appealing to people's faith in a way,
in a very serious way. I mean, if you're talking
about this is the end of the world, folks, if
you're framing this endeavor using the book of
Revelation, that's a very serious way of framing
the story here. Yeah, no, that's very helpful.
You've painted a very good picture of what the
climate was at that time and how differing people
viewed one another as well. Indeed. Where does
Francis come in? Francis arrives in Damietta
in August of 1219. So the crusading armies have
already landed in Egypt in the previous year.
Francis comes and he is in the midst of a terrible
situation because the crusaders have been at
this for quite some time without gaining much
ground. And there have been battles fought between
the crusading army and the Sultanate. But not
much ground has been gained. So this is war in
a very ugly way. And so Francis is entering into
real ministry. It's important to realize, as
part of our background, that for the Muslims
in Egypt, this was a bit of an oddity because
the Sultanate had commercial dealings with various
city -states in Italy. There were commercial
agreements that were renewed periodically. So
it wasn't like Europeans were unknown at the
time. They were present, particularly merchants
were present, some diplomats as well. And so
when the fleet of the crusaders arrives on the
Egyptian coast, it's a bit of a puzzlement. Why
are they attacking when we have commercial relations
with various European Christians? So Francis
arrives there in 1219 at a very, very... Difficult
time. Difficult time not only for the crusaders,
because they're the ones that are initiating
the battle, but also for the Sultanate, because
the Sultan al -Adil, who was in Damascus, died
before he could get to Cairo. But he was aware
of the crusading army, and so he sends word to
his son. Be careful because this is coming your
way and you're going to need to step up and attend
to the defense of the Sultanate. So that happened
soon after the crusading armies arrived. So when
Francis arrives there, basically a year later,
he's in the midst of a lot of activity going
on. from everything that we know about Francis,
must have been, we can say that I think with
a great deal of certainty, must have been to
bring an end to a terrible conflict. Francis
was no stranger to warfare. We know this, right?
That he himself fought. in the battles between
Assisi and Perugia, was taken captive, spent
time as a prisoner of war. So he knows the horrors.
He's seen childhood friends killed in battle.
He has suffered as a prisoner himself. So his
idea seems to have been from the beginning to
meet with the sultan, al -Malik al -Kamil, who
had to assume control of Egypt after his father
died. And Francis's belief probably was that
if he could meet with the sultan and preach to
the sultan, then perhaps the sultan would relinquish
Jerusalem would relinquish his rule, maybe embrace
Christianity. But from everything we know about
Francis, there must have been the objective of
bringing an end to a conflict where lives were
being lost on both sides. We don't know what
Francis said to the sultan. We don't have...
any direct script, if you will, of what was exchanged
between the two. But here's an interesting item.
We know that in September of 1219, Francis meets
with Sultan al -Malik al -Kamil. Sometime after
that meeting, we know that al -Kamil makes an
offer of peace. With the crusading camp, several
offers, in fact, he offers the crusaders Jerusalem
and Palestine. He offers them control of the
holy city. He said he will tear down the walls
of the city so that the city won't be able to
resist. And yet. Those offers of peace, of bringing
this conflict to an end, were rejected by the
papal legate Cardinal Pelagius. So the question
then becomes why? Isn't the objective to win
back the holy city? Right. To take control of
the holy city. Isn't that the whole objective
of the crusade? No. Because the encyclical of
innocent. was the complete destruction of Islam.
Because of the way that the Pope had framed the
conflict, this was a battle to the end, to destroy
evil from the face of the earth as revealed by
the book of Revelation. So for him, it was not...
For the Pope and neither for Pelagius was it
working out some kind of deal with the Sultanate.
It was the utter destruction of the Sultanate
and of all Muslims if necessary. So it was a
pretty brutal kind of position to take. And there
is Francis trying to bring some conclusion to
this through a peaceful encounter. We don't know
what they talked about, but we can say with certainty
what Francis didn't say. He did not in any way
say anything that defamed or degraded the prophet
of Islam or the faith itself, because he wouldn't
have left the sultan's camp in peace had he done
so. We know what the Franciscan friars did in
Morocco. Father Berard and companions went into
the mosque in Marrakesh and said horrible things
about the Prophet Muhammad, about Islam, and
they ultimately lost their lives. Ultimately
lost their lives. Francis did not take that tactic.
He apparently spoke in a way. that engendered
respect from the sultan and from the courtiers.
We know somewhat of what Francis said from Jacques
de Vitry, who was the bishop of Acre, and he
said that the Muslims willingly listen to the
friars as long as they don't insult the prophet.
Francis spoke in a way that wasn't considered
threatening or disrespectful. And I think that's
what's unique about the situation because all
of the other language from the crusading camp
at this time, from the papacy, is very inflammatory
and very insulting and, again, is not looking
for some kind of peace or reconciliation. It's
looking for the utter destruction. of Islam and
its adherents. So Francis brings something else
to this equation. The other half of that, though,
is the person of the sultan himself. And I think
this is what people miss when they tell the story.
I think it's quite frankly what a lot of friars
miss when they tell the story. So we tell the
story about Francis and the sultan, but really
we're telling the story of Francis. We're not
telling the story of the Sultan. towards the
earth, which I find fascinating. So there's a
sophisticated science and astronomy behind this.
He's an intelligent person. He's a literate person.
And we know he is a spiritual person. What do
I mean by that? We know that al -Malik al -Kamil
is drawn to the mystical traditions in Islam
called Sufism. We know that he had a particular
regard, affection for a poet named Ibn al -Farid,
a direct contemporary of Francis. And we have
these actually amusing stories of the lengths
that al -Malik al -Kamil went to to try to meet
this poet, Ibn al -Farid. When we look at the
poetry of Ibn al -Farid, I see there a lot of
commonalities with what we would identify as
Franciscan spirituality. Ibn al -Fatih talks
about experiencing God through all the phenomenon
of nature. He talks about the dew on the grass.
He talks about the scent of flowers. the feel
of walking in a field of flowers. And he says
that all of these things are conveying his beloved
to him. And he's talking about his God. So this
is part of the spirituality of the sultan. And
so I wonder, as the sultan listened to Francis,
of course, speaking through interpreters, did
the sultan think of... of his own Sufi poet,
Ibn al -Fari. Was he thinking that this Franciscan
guy, this Italian guy, is very much Sufi -like?
Even in his appearance, if you think about Francis'
appearing wearing a patched habit, and we know
that Francis wore this habit where holes have
been patched over. This is very much the garment
of the Sufis. They wear these patched garments.
They are itinerant preachers living very simple
lives. So the sultan would have had an experience
of Sufism, of this mystical tradition and Islam.
And I think that when Francis spoke, it actually
evoked in the sultan his own spirituality through
his own faith, that is, of course, Islam. So
I think really the success of the encounter,
and I do believe it was a successful encounter,
ultimately, is that two men of faith met and
could see in the other a believer. Wow. Yeah.
A couple questions about the meeting itself.
The first one's really simple. This was bizarre,
correct? I mean, it's not like Francis was some
diplomat, you know, who was sent by Rome to go
negotiate. I mean, he's kind of a weirdo, right?
He goes on this journey. Yeah. He's a bit off
the wall. I mean, he's off the wall in the simple
in the simple way that he's not talking about.
Let's go kill. Yeah. That's a countercultural
aspect that you hit on at the beginning. Yeah,
exactly. I mean, he's there in the midst of of
warfare and everyone is trying to figure out
how can we accomplish this task and then get
out of here. Right. Let's win the battle. Let's
kill the people that we need to kill. And then
we're out of here. Right. Because you're not
talking about a professional army per se. You're
talking about volunteers, really. So, yeah, Francis
is acting in a way that is at odds. It's at odds
with the church. this beast that has been described
in the holy scriptures in the book of revelation
the beast marked with 666 which he identifies
i'm sorry to say with the prophet muhammad so
francis is acting oddly he's acting counter -culturally
he's acting you could say counter ecclesially
although francis doesn't make um make a scandal
out of the fact that he is attempting to do what
the church was not interested in doing. It was
only begrudgingly that the papal legate Cardinal
Pelagius allowed Francis to cross the enemy lines
to meet with the sultan. convert the sultan.
Is that true? I think Francis's motivation was
for evangelization because Francis evangelized.
His primary evangelization was amongst Christians,
right? He's calling people to lead a more authentically
Christian life in the manner of Jesus Christ.
So Francis was an evangelist. He's going to evangelize
wherever he was. That's who he was. Yeah. Right.
So I don't think we should be surprised that
that was Francis's motivation. I'm sure he felt
that if the sultan converted to Christianity,
became a Christian, we could bring an end to
this. Yeah. Besides, Francis is a man of the
Middle Ages. He's not a Vatican II Catholic,
right? He doesn't know most of the etate. Right?
I mean, we have to think realistically about
Francis. Francis is a man of the Middle Ages.
He has been taught all of his life. The only
means of salvation is through your faith in Jesus
Christ in the one holy Roman Catholic Church.
period, right? So anyone who is not in communion
with the church, anathema est, they are consigned
to the flames of hell. Certainly that was, I
have no doubt that that was his motivation. He's
going to preach because he always preached. He
preached to the birds, to the fish, right? He
preached to everything and everyone. So I think
the fish was Anthony, but Francis preached to
the birds. I think his motivation was to evangelize.
I think he expected that he would be killed.
That's what I was going to ask you about next
is where does martyrdom come into play here?
I don't think he sought martyrdom. I think that's
hagiography. I think within the context of the
Middle Ages. Good and holy people sought martyrdom
wherever they could find it. That was the mark
of holiness. To be killed for your faith. I think
he probably expected it. Remember that Francis
has no knowledge of Islam. He has no knowledge
of Muslims. He only knows what he's been told
by the church. by people who had come back from
the Crusades, etc. So he's listening to all of
this very prejudicial, inflammatory speech about
these people who are amongst the evil of the
world, etc., etc., etc. He knows that there have
been Christian martyrs in Islamic lands. So he
probably thought, okay, I'm going to go and preach
the gospel of Jesus Christ. If I lose my life,
so be it. Of course, I think he was trying to
bring about some kind of peaceful resolution.
Everything about this man, everything that we
know about Francis before going to Egypt says
this is a man who tries to end conflict, not
foster conflict, to bring people together rather
than separate people. So I think he felt that
in some way, shape, or form, he could be instrumental
in bringing peace. The outcome, I think, is that
Francis and the Sultan see in one another people
of real faith. And I think when we talk about
the conversion of the sultan, I think Francis
himself was converted, that his kind of spiritual
horizons were expanded, perhaps blown open by
what he heard coming from his Muslim hosts, from
the sultan and perhaps the people around him
as well. This was the first time that Francis
would have spoken to a Muslim and probably I
would think that the sultan spoke to Francis
about his own faith as much as Francis spoke
about his faith. So I think it was really a meeting
of hearts and minds that the two looked at one
another, listened to one another, listened to
one another, and heard something they hadn't
expected. That's very well put. Do we know how
many days they spent together? We don't. The
accounts are inconsistent. You know, it could
be a couple of days, a couple of weeks. We don't
know. So, yeah, there's there's a lot of room
there. Yeah. For interpretation and understanding.
But I truly well, we know this had an impact
on Francis. We know this had an impact on Francis
because of Francis's writings after his return.
To to Italy. Can you get into that? Yeah. Yeah.
So, of course, Francis, when he gets back from
from his time in Egypt, he is not there. apparently,
when the city of Damietta falls. He probably
takes off after. He's not interested in seeing
the spoils of war or any of that. So he returns
to Italy and writes his earlier, what we call
the earlier rule for the friars, the rule of
1221. And in that rule, of course, is a chapter
on the friars who go on mission to Muslim lands,
right? So this is a very important aspect of
the life of a friar minor. And Francis writes
in chapter 16 of the rule, as for the brothers
who go, They can live spiritually among the Saracens,
that is the Muslims, and non -believers in two
ways. One way is not to engage in arguments or
disputes, but to be subject to every human creature
for God's sake. The other way is to announce
the word of God when they see It pleases the
Lord. Now, that's really fascinating. It's fascinating
because Francis' first admonition here to friar
missionaries is, when you are amongst the Muslims,
don't engage in argumentation. You're not having
a theological debate. OK, you're not engaging
in some kind of scholastic academic exercise.
That's not what the friar minor is to do when
he's on mission. And he uses language that, again,
is in contrast to the language of the church
where Francis says, be subject to every human
creature for God's sake. That is against the
church's. A Christian should not be subject to
Muslims, says the church. And yet Francis is
saying, your way of evangelizing, your way of
preaching the gospel, is by the manner in which
you relate to people, relate to the Muslims as
someone who is subject and servant to them. And
he says, You announce the word of God when you
see that it pleases the Lord. In other words,
that requires discernment. That requires discernment.
You're not simply to start shooting off your
mouth. That's what the friars in Morocco did,
and they lost their lives for it. Francis is
talking about witnessing to his gospel call by
the way he relates to people. And, I mean, let's
face it, he's a man of the gospel, he wants to
preach, but he's going to preach through discernment,
by going through a process of discernment, and
by preaching in a way that is going to build
the kingdom of God, not tear it apart. And certainly
using inflammatory, disrespectful language is
not the way Francis... interacted with people,
even with people that he disagreed with. That's
not Francis's way of relating to people. Yeah.
You're a scholar, so I'd be remiss if I didn't
ask you this, but have you ever seen that quote
from Francis? And I'm not sure. I'd have to go
back and look. I came across it in my studies
at FST, but he says something along the lines
of, I want to gather up all the names of God
and place them in the holiest places. And is
that a reference to Islam or is that too far
of a scholastic kind of leap? I think I know
what you're talking about. So there is a story
about Francis who is picking up scraps of paper.
And someone asks him, why are you doing this?
These are the writings of the pagans. And pagan
is a medieval term for Muslims, actually. And
Francis says that where the name of God is written,
it is to be revered even if it's amongst the
writings of the pagans. So for Francis, there
is something, there is a faith that transcends
differences. Yeah, it's beautiful. You hit on
this a little bit earlier. You have a PhD in
Islamic studies, and you're the director of the
Center for Arab and Islamic Studies at St. Bonaventure
University. And you got into something really
important, and that is how Sultan Malik al -Kamil
often gets left out of this, and we just focus
so much on Francis. So I'm curious, how has your
study of Islam enriched this story for you? Yeah,
I think it's, well, in a number of ways. And
this is a project that I've been working on,
so I'll share it with your audience. Please.
notion that Francis comes up with, or this MO,
this tactic that Francis comes up with in his
rule where he says, do not engage in arguments
or disputes. There is a verse in the Quran which
instructs Muslims not to engage in arguments
with the peoples of the book, that is, with Jews
and Christians. But say to them, we believe in
that which has been revealed to us and which
has been revealed to you, to our God and your
God. He is one. And to him do we submit. So in
Islam, you have this idea of you don't really
build a community of believers by haranguing
people and insulting them and threatening them
with hellfire and damnation. I mean, you know,
that's one tactic, I suppose. But isn't it a
better tactic to invite people into conversation
where they don't feel threatened, but meet you
at a very different level? I think this is what
happened between Francis and the Sultan. Francis
was not there to negotiate a peace treaty. He
was not there to hammer out details about who
would have what land and whatnot. He's there
as a man of faith. And he speaks as a man of
faith. He's not speaking as a politician. He's
not speaking as a diplomat. He's not speaking
really as an agent of the church. That was Cardinal
Pelagius. Francis is simply a man of faith. who
wants to share the good news, who wants to build,
you could say, the human fraternity. So he's
going to speak in a way that is going to invite
the sultan into the conversation. And I think
the sultan is going to do the same thing. The
sultan knows Christianity. He has Christians
within the sultanate. I mean, that's clear. But
Francis is presenting his faith in a way that
is familiar to the sultan because of the sultan's
own love and admiration for the mystical traditions
in Islam. And Francis really, I think, evoked
for him the poetry, the voice of Muslim mystics.
Yeah, I did not know that background of his love
for that literature, Malik al -Kamil. I mean,
nor did I know about the peace deals that he
offered after this meeting took place. I mean...
My goodness, there's something kind of maddening
about that. Maybe this language is too severe,
but it's like the church was just hell -bent
on this genocide almost. He's open to giving
the holy city back, and still they're saying,
no, we need to wipe you from the face of the
earth. Exactly. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. Exactly. I
mean, the sultan, first of all, is very practical,
too. He's facing challenges within his own court.
He's got many brothers. He's got more brothers
than he needs because all of his brothers are
ambitious and are looking to carve out their
own kingdom from his. So he's kind of watching
his back. He's worried about being overthrown.
There was a plot to overthrow him. So he's worried
about his own position within the Sultanate.
And his concern is really with his brothers in
the remainder of the Sultanate. And so al -Malik
al -Kamil wants to bring this to a conclusion.
He doesn't want this to drag on. He has no interest
in it. There's nothing for him to gain. uh from
this conflict yeah gotcha yeah um well you've
done an incredible job of kind of contextualizing
all of this for our listeners um i mean For me,
this has taken on even more dimensions, just
learning more about the Sultan's story and his
actions after this meeting. I didn't know about
his affinity for Sufism. I mean, this is beautiful
stuff. Now to kind of cross that bridge to today.
I mean, this story has been used as a model for
inter -religious dialogue. It's been used as
a model for peacemaking. What do you take from
it with your background in Islamic studies? I
think what Francis really reflects, what Francis
and the Sultan reflect for us, in 1219, is something
that the church would only realize with the Second
Vatican Council, with Nostra Aetate in 1965.
I think there's a line that you can draw between
from this marvelous encounter in 1219 to the
promulgation of Nostra Aetate in 1965, because
it took until 1965, for the church to finally
see the goodness that exists in Islam, the commonalities
that Muslims and Christians have, the common
values that we share, as well as common elements
in our faith. It's remarkable. Yeah, I mean,
I think there's a true impact. Now, some people
have looked at, you may have heard this, some
people look at Nostra Aetate and say, well, behind
this are the words of Louis Massignon, who was
a Franciscan tertiary as well as an Islamic scholar.
Louis Massignon has this Franciscan background.
He's got a knowledge of Islam. And so we think
that perhaps his voice, if not his actual words,
go into Nostra Aetate and really reflect for
the church in the 20th century what Francis had
modeled at the beginning of the 13th century.
Yeah, you've really brought this to relevance
for us on a church level. What about in an American
context? I mean, we hear the words all the time
about this polarized, divided time that we're
navigating. Do you see this story being a benefit
to the trials that we're encountering today as
Americans in our dialogue, in our debate? Yeah,
I think it's important. And again, if we think
about Francis's context, he's hearing horrible
things said about Muslims. He's hearing calls
for war, for violence, for murder, etc. And he's
able to set that aside and enter into a personal
encounter and see that person. As a brother,
someone who, like he, was created in the image
and likeness of God and who believes in that
one God. So isn't that a struggle that so many
of us face? We have to kind of shut our ears
to the prejudices and the ugliness spoken by
people who express hate. rather than people who
express faith in the God who created every human
being and everything in an outpouring of love?
And shouldn't we then be able to see that God
in the creation and in one another? I think that's
really the value of this story for not only our
country, but for around the world, because this
kind of sectarian tension and violence is not
an American problem alone. We see it around the
world. I certainly see it when I travel. Um,
so I think that's the value. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
it's a, it's a tale as old as time, this rallying
cry to kind of galvanize your forces around the
demonization over another group of people, you
know, and the, the path that Francis and the
Sultan took like that is. That is a path that
you don't campaign on that path. You know what
I'm saying? That's complex. It's nuanced. It
involves relationship. It involves really seeing
the goodness and beauty in one another. Yeah,
I mean, in Assisi, this really struck me on my
visit there. I loved how... Right outside the
Basilica of St. Francis, there's that bell that
you can ring. And around the bell is every major
religious symbol in the world. And it's just,
yeah, it's a beautiful symbol of what this could
be if we dared to see God in one another, even
in people who we vehemently may disagree with.
I think, you know, I just taught a class on the
Second Vatican Council, Nos Reitate, and I spoke
to my students about this because they were really,
really interested. Like, how is it that after
so many centuries of vitriol on behalf of the
church towards Muslims that the church can make
this transition to a much more respectful tone?
And it's a very good question, but I think part
of it is at least that the church was able to
see and encourage the faithful to see goodness
in the world. And if you see goodness in other
people, you have to ask yourself, where does
that goodness come from? And I think there's
only one answer to that. It comes from God. If
you see goodness in another person, in another
faith tradition, which is what Vatican II says,
the Vatican Council looks at Islam and says there
is goodness here. That goodness can only have
a divine source. Wow. Then you really blow open
your anthropology big time. Then you see that
God, I mean, speaking in Christian terms, incarnates
God's self in the world, in everyone and in everything
that is created. Now, that would resonate in
Islam without the incarnation language. The Quran
speaks about signs, that God provides humanity
with signs that point to God. So what are the
signs? The creation itself. You want to know
God? You will know God in some way, shape, or
form simply by observing the signs of nature,
the changing of night into day and day into night,
the sun coming up, the clouds that sail between
heaven and earth, the rain that comes down. The
Quran says these are signs for a people who understand.
What are other signs? The prophets. The fact
that God sends prophets to humanity to teach
us, to exhort us, that's a sign of God's presence
with us. Divine revelation is a sign. All of
these things that God sends to us are signs.
We are signs to one another. If we are good people
of faith, we are signs to one another. I have
said that my Muslim friends... will be in heaven,
in paradise, in Jannah, a long time I will, because
they are good and holy people. They are good
and holy people. And that is ultimately the measure.
How does God measure us? By what we call ourselves?
Well, I may call myself a Catholic, but I may
not be a very good Catholic. But God will know
the love in my heart. for him, for my fellow
human beings, for the creation. And it's on that
belief, on that faith, on the way we treat one
another, the way we treat every living thing,
every created thing. That's the basis on which
God will judge us. I firmly believe that. Yeah,
what you're getting into, I mean, it makes me
think of this incredible story again, where it,
It is so weird to me that in this story of Francis
and the Sultan, on one level, you have religion
at its worst, religions at war with each other,
and the papacy literally calling Christian Europeans
to genocide, essentially, in the name of religion,
in the name of God. And then in this... personal,
intimate encounter between the Francis and the
Sultan, you have religion at its best, where
you could argue that because of Francis's faith
and Sultan Malik al -Kamil's faith, their ability
to see goodness in one another, that faith is
one of the things that helped them to open their
eyes. to the beauty and goodness of the other.
I don't really have a question there. It's just,
the story is just a really crazy collision to
me of, you know, religion has done such terrible,
you know, such evils in this world through history.
True. But then you also have this encounter where
their faith is making the way for something that
is incredibly counter -cultural. I don't know.
It's very interesting to me. Yeah. I would, I
would. I agree with you 100%. I would change
your language just a little bit. Religions don't
battle one another. Religions don't hate one
another. It's people who claim those faith traditions
that get into conflict. I think that's a difference
there. I think that we human beings who are flawed
express our faith better. And worse, we don't
often reflect the fullness of our faith and we
get into conflicts. But it's people who claim
a faith tradition that get into faiths, not the
faith traditions themselves. Christianity and
Islam don't... get into conflict with one another.
People who profess to be Christians get into
conflict with people who profess to be Muslims.
That's the way I would describe it. You know,
it brings me back to one of my favorite quotes,
if you will. You're probably too young to remember
Bill Moyers, a great, great journalist who interviewed
a lot of great scholars and artists. And he did
an interview with Maya Angelou, the great African
-American poet. And he asked her what faith she
followed. And she paused and she said, I aspire
to be Christian. Now, I thought that was the
most honest answer anyone could give about their
religious identity. I aspire to be a Christian.
You know, people walk around saying, I'm Christian,
I'm Catholic, I'm Muslim, I'm Buddhist, I'm Hindu,
I'm Sikh, whatever. Are you? Are we? Can I authentically
call myself a Christian if I don't act in a Christ
-like manner? That's what I'm getting to. That
historically, and all religious traditions go
through this, where people who are not good representatives
of that faith tradition claim it a little bit
too much. And then we identify that faith tradition
with an imperfect expression of it. Yeah. My
editor, Chris Heffron at St. Anthony Messenger,
he had a question for you. We got into this a
little bit in our conversation, but I think it's
a really important aspect of the story. So switching
gears here a little bit as we conclude, his question
was, how does the meeting between Francis and
the Sultan inform our own internal divisions?
And I was kind of thinking about that, and it
does seem to me that we can build peace outwardly,
but we first have to have peace on an internal
level. And I'm just wondering what this story
can teach us about, you know, how can this model
that we're given in this story help to build
peace in our own hearts? Because there's something
really interesting happening on an individual
level with Francis and the Sultan because of...
Yeah, I speak very personally here. So I am a
scholar of Islam, so I'm steeped in things Islamic
24 -7. But not only. So I have a... background
in scripture. So I'm well acquainted with the
Hebrew scriptures, of course, as well as the
Christian scriptures, as well as the Quran. But
I've also traveled quite a bit in South Asia
and have seen expressions of Hinduism and Sikhism.
So I've had a good exposure to various religions.
And I allow them all to speak to me. I allow
them to become part of me in some way, shape,
or form. Again, this is what the church was teaching
at the Second Vatican Council with this understanding
that wherever there is good, it's got to be of
God. And so my own life is enriched by people
of different faiths. People get very nervous
when they come up across a person from a different
faith tradition. They somehow think they're going
to lose their own faith. I find that my faith
is amplified and enhanced. by my exposure to
truly believing people, people who are good representatives
of their faith tradition, I find that so enriching.
And it just, it makes me feel, I feel closer
to God and I feel more appreciative and I feel
more gratitude for those experiences. for the
beauty of humanity in all its diversity. I mean,
we've been talking quite a bit about religion,
but it need not be only about religion, but about
culture in every way, shape, or form. My life
is enriched by learning another language. My
life is enriched by partaking in different cultural
practices. My life is enriched by meeting people
from other countries and eating different kinds
of food and reading different kinds of literature.
So when I think about my God, the way I think
of my God, of our God, I think of a God who has
poured God's self out into the creation in so
many ways so that there is nothing to prevent
us from knowing that God. God has given us every
avenue to know that God through the beauty and
the bounty of the creation, through every created
thing and through every creative endeavor that
humanity makes. Through wonderful artwork, through
the beauty of dance or sports for that matter.
I mean, my God, we've all seen athletes and you
think, wow. I mean, that is the most beautiful
movement that I've ever seen, whatever sport
you're talking about, right? I mean, it's easy
to talk about the beauty of artwork. But when
you talk about dance or some kind of athletic
ability, I mean, that's representing some divine
character to me. And I really think that's what
faith is about. It's about opening our eyes,
our hearts, our hands to the beauty in the other.
Pope Francis was so good on this. He understood.
God rest his soul. I get very emotional when
I talk about Pope Francis because I think he
was a great blessing to the church, particularly
in terms of interreligious dialogue and interfaith
work. And he said that the way of engaging in
interreligious dialogue is to make a home for
another. By receiving them in love and charity
and opening our hearts to the other, that's interreligious
dialogue. You can't engage in interreligious
dialogue if the other person is fearing you.
You have to open your heart, your hands, your
life, your home to the other. And I really think
that that comes from a place of deep faith. Yes.
Yeah. Well, Father Michael, I think that is a
wonderful place for us to conclude. Anything
that I left out? Anything else you wanted to
hit on with this remarkable story? I really appreciate
the conversation. It's a story I love. It's the
story that serves as the whole foundation for
my Franciscan vocation. When I was discerning
a vocation with the friars, it was this story
in particular, because I had experience in Islam
with Muslims before, and I thought, this is the
foundation for my life as a friar. And it's a
story that, as I said, continues to inspire me,
and I believe it has the ability to inspire people
of all different faith traditions. Yeah, I mean,
it's for me as well. This is the story that really,
for the lack of a better term, sold me on Franciscanism
because I have an evangelical background and
I just noticed. That no matter what community,
and there are wonderful people in these communities,
and I learned a lot from my days in evangelicalism.
It really actually opened up my roots in Catholicism
more for me. But I did notice that in these different
church communities in which I belong, there was
always this drift toward certainty. And even
more so these days with politics kind of filling
that religious void for a lot of people. So I
would notice that, again, it's just language,
but conservative evangelical churches would,
you know, there was conservative political ideology
permeating that space. Same thing in progressive
Christianity is kind of in bed with politics
at times. And not that all that is bad either,
but this story constantly. invites me to see
and experience Christ in the other. It's a very
humbling story because it completely shatters
everything that you thought to be true. Indeed.
And you're like, nope, the person who's most
different than you, that's your pathway to conversion.
That person, that person's goodness, that person's
faith. Let them teach you. Yeah. You know, so
often, particularly younger people, but not only
younger people, some older Catholics as well,
will ask me, you know, in all of your time, you
know, traveling in the Middle East and elsewhere,
have you converted Muslims? You know, and my
point is that before I can even imagine attempting
to convert anyone, I have to undergo conversion
myself. And I think self -conversion is the work
of a lifetime. Yes. Yeah. One of my favorite
philosophers these days, his name's Peter Rollins,
and he had a project in Northern Ireland. And
of course, they have a history there with the
Troubles and everything. So similar dynamics
on display there in this story. But he would
organize evangelistic teams who typically, you
know, with my evangelical background, you think
you're going out to try to convert someone, but
they would do the opposite. They would go out
to community, religious communities that maybe
had different beliefs than them. And they would
ask the question, can you convert us? You know,
tell, tell us what you see when you hear the
name Christian, you know, what, what are we doing
wrong? Like what, what in, That's my default
kind of posture these days is, can I be more
curious? Because I've learned that the more curious
I can be, the more I get to experience God's
goodness and grace and beauty in the diversity
of the human experience and all of humanity itself.
Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, something we
didn't talk about, really, was what scholars
believe is the impact of Islam on Francis, on
Francis's writings beyond the rule. So, for example,
what we call the prayer for Brother Leo, the
praises of God, where Francis just gives a litany
of God, you are love, you are majesty, you are
holiness, you are etc., etc., etc. Scholars look
at that and say, that's a very interesting form
of prayer for a Christian, and it sounds an awful
lot like what we call the beautiful names of
God in Islam. So people wonder if that is an
influence that Francis brought with him from
Islam. There's the letter that Francis writes
to the rulers of the peoples. Again, this is
coming right after his trip from Egypt, his return
from Egypt, where he exhorts rulers to establish
some way of calling people to common prayer.
Now, people are looking at this post -Egypt and
saying, this is what we call the event in Islam,
where you have a man calling people to prayer
because Francis says, let there be some kind
of an announcement made by a messenger. And so,
you know, Franciscan scholars look at Francis's
writings after Egypt and are able to say, these
things sound an awful lot. like elements from
Islam. Wow. Again, because Francis can look past
the barriers and the distinctions that we set
up in our minds and can see the goodness in the
other. Beautiful, my friend. Well, thank you
so much for your time. This has been such a joy.
You're very welcome. Thank you so much for the
conversation. Once again, that was Father Michael
Calabria. You can order his book, The Language
of the Taj Mahal, on Amazon or wherever books
are sold. You can also watch the two -part 2012
documentary, Francis and the Sultan, on Franciscan
Media's YouTube channel. I have linked to Father
Michael's book, to his work, as well as to this
documentary and other resources that align with
this conversation in the show notes of this episode.
So since there were no reflection segments this
episode, I wanted to conclude this with a few
quotes. And the first is from Nostra Aetate,
the document that Father Michael referenced throughout
this conversation. Quote, Likewise, other religions
found everywhere try to counter the restlessness
of the human heart, each in its own manner, by
proposing ways comprising teachings. rules of
life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects
nothing that is true and holy in these religions.
She regards with sincere reverence those ways
of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings
which, though differing in many aspects from
the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless
often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens
all men." Next is this quote from Thomas of Chalana's
biography on Francis, quote, And finally, I wanted
to conclude with this quote from a talk Thomas
Merton gave at Calcutta in October 1968. Quote,
in the deepest level of communication is not
communication, but communion. It is wordless.
It is beyond words and is beyond speech and is
beyond concept. Not that we discover a new unity.
We discover an old unity. We discover an older
unity. My dear brothers and sisters, we are already
one, but we imagine that we are not, and what
we have to discover is our original unity. What
we have to be is what we are. End quote. Thank
you as always for tuning in, for your support.
Peace and all good.