WEBVTT

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Welcome to Off the Page. I'm Stephen Copeland.

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What does it mean to age with grace, to let go

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without losing hope, and to face life's deepest

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struggles and losses with open hands? What does

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it mean to move towards spiritual maturity as

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life unfolds, and how can a spirituality of letting

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go help take us there? Our next guest needs no

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introduction. I'm thrilled to be joined on Off

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the Page by Father Ronald Rollheiser, a Roman

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Catholic priest and member of the Missionary

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Oblates of Mary Immaculate. He is a theologian,

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professor, award -winning author, and he served

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as president of the Oblate School of Theology.

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You may know him from his popular lectures or

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his best -selling books, The Holy Longing or

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The Sacred Fire. In this conversation, Father

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Ron joins Off the Page to explore themes from

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his powerful new book, Insane for the Light,

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A Spirituality for Our Wisdom Years, which was

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released on October 28, 2025. From the raw beauty

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of metanoia to the transformative power of passivity,

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Father Ron reveals how suffering, helplessness,

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and even death can become our greatest gifts

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if we dare to live while we're dying. There are

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so many profound sections in his book. I've paused

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the interview a few times throughout the conversation

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for minute meditations, opportunities to really

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sit with his words and reflect on what Father

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Ron has shared with us. So, without further ado,

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here is Father Ronald Rollheiser. Enjoy. Father

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Ronald Rollheiser, welcome to the Off the Page

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podcast. Thanks, Stephen. Thanks for having me.

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In some senses, it's like your new book, it unpacks

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a spirituality of aging. But it also, as I read

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it, it also unpacks a spirituality of letting

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go as we move towards spiritual maturity. I mean,

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I got a lot out of this book as a 37 -year -old

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reading. So to begin, can you talk about who

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you wrote this book for and where it came from

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in your own life and spiritual journey? Yeah,

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very good question. You know, I wrote the book

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more in terms of, you know, I teach courses on

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spirituality of aging. for people, you know,

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retirement and the years beyond, because today

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people live longer. You know, 100 years ago,

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well, 105 years ago, 1919, the average age in

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the United States was 49. You didn't need much

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of a spirituality of aging. You'd have been an

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old man 100 years ago. But today people are living

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to the 80s and 90s and so on. So we need a spirituality

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for that. But also, okay, you're 37. The book

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is intended for everybody. You know, at the end

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of the preface, I have a story. I went there

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some years ago with a friend of mine. We visited

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an old priest who was celebrating his 90th birthday.

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It was just this wonderful old guy. And so this

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guy with me was in his 20s. He said, Father,

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he said, I want to, when I'm old, I want to be

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like you. What's the secret? He said, start now.

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You know, see, everything in there is, you know,

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post -retirement, but it's good to start now.

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You know, there's a lot of things as a 37 year

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old and a 27 year old, it's for everybody. Yes.

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Yeah. You know, the subtitle is a spirituality

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for our wisdom years. That subtitle has really

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grown on me. At first, when I read it, I was

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like, oh, this kind of just seems like it is

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for people who are maybe nearing retirement or

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perhaps even on the backside of that. But then

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that notion of wisdom years, there's a really

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beautiful, as I read that, there's a really beautiful.

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depth and meaning there. You know, it goes into

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what you just said. Start now. Start embracing

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wisdom now. Do you have any thoughts on that?

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Well, I'm glad you mentioned it. See, wisdom

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years. Some people never get there. You're 37.

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You might well be there. See, for instance, right

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now, the work you're doing, that's a wisdom occupation.

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That is what I saw. You're a magus. You're a

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wisdom figure. I mean, you have other things

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in your life, you know, like you might be a father

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and a husband and so on. But, you know, like

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you're in a wisdom occupation. So anybody who's

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teaching, who's mentoring or whatever, you're

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a magus or you're a Sophia if you're a woman.

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That's a wisdom thing. So there is no chronological

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age to that. And some people never become a wisdom

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figure. They stay adolescent in some ways. Yeah,

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yeah, the book really, as I read it, it really

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moves toward spiritual maturity. Like, that's

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the way that I was really experiencing each chapter

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was, how can I allow what you're sharing to move

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me toward spiritual maturity? I did want to get

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your thoughts on the title. Very unique title,

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Insane for the Light. Can you go into where that

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came from? I'll give you the title itself and

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then why I picked that. It's the tail end of

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a Goethe poem. You know, one of the first books

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I wrote in a trilogy, you know, was The Holy

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Longing. That's the title of the poem. It comes

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from the poem The Holy Longing. But in there

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he says you grow to a point in your life where

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sometimes you just become insane for the light,

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which means the things that you want to get fly

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off. But I use a story to open the book with

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from Rachel Raymond, who's a medical doctor,

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fine writer. And it's a beautiful image. She

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said when she was a young girl and she was candy

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striping, I think what they used to call that,

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you know, you work as a kind of a teenage nurse

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and so on. And, you know, you volunteer. And

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she was working with this elderly woman who one

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Saturday morning simply wouldn't look at her.

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You know, she was sitting looking out the window,

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staring at outside the window. And Rachel tried

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three or four times to talk to her, but she wouldn't

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respond. And then finally, when it was time to

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go, she said, well, I'm leaving. So then she

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turned and she had a strange look on her face,

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said something that startled me, as if she was

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seeing something. She said, and I said, what

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were you looking at? She said, dear, I was looking

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at the light. And then Rachel Raymond, later

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became a doctor, had gone to college. I never

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saw that look again until they delivered my first

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baby. When a baby comes out of the womb, opens

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his eyes, that's the look on his face. It's seeing

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light for the first time. So it's insane for

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the light. Not just waiting to die and so on.

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Like right now, you're 37. You're also partly

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insane for the light. The older you get, you

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want to... You saw it for the first time as a

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baby. But then we get too used to it. And after

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a while, we're not seeing it anymore. Yes, or

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experiencing it in a visceral way. Yeah. At the

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beginning of the book, you talk about two struggles

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in life that help bring people to spiritual maturity.

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One being the struggle to get our lives together,

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and the second being the struggle to give our

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lives away. Can you discuss the importance of

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both of these kind of acts in life? Yeah. Yeah.

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And you also, Stephen, gave me a perfect opportunity

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for a little advertising. Please do. I wrote

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a book on each of them. So the book, The Holy

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Logging, is that first struggle. You know, our

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first struggle in life is to get our lives together.

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And that begins when you come out of the womb,

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you know. But it really doesn't constellate until

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after it with puberty. You know, up to puberty,

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you're mommy's little girl, daddy's little boy.

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You're at home. And then puberty, as I say, puberty

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drives you out of the house. Puberty is designed

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by God and nature with a certain violence to

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it. And all of a sudden you realize you're not

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at home here anymore. And that has wisdom to

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it. So you have to go out and make your own home.

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You know, and that's going to take, okay, imagine

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you reach puberty at 13 or something. That might

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take 10 or 15 years or some people never grow

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up. But, you know, but at a certain point you

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land, you're married, you have a job, you have

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a career, you buy a home, you start having kids,

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you know. That's the end of that first phase.

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And then, you know, whatever age you are, maybe

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you're 25, 30 or whatever. But then you have

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the next 40 to 50 years. That's the stage you're

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in. Now your task is not to get your life together.

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Your task is to give your life away. Like now,

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you've got to be doing generative stuff, helping

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others, doing what you're doing, raising kids,

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paying mortgages. In anthropology, they have

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a wonderful verb. They say at that point in life,

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you begin to carry life as opposed to when you're

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a kid, you're being carried. Little kids get

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carried. Stuff is bought for him. You go to university

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and someone is paying for you and so on. See,

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now you're doing the carrying. You're paying

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the mortgage. You're running the, you know, you're

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the adult in the room, you know. And that can

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go on for up to, wait until you die, you know.

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And in some sense it will. But for the next 40

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or 50 years, you're saying, how do I give my

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life away? You know, Teresa of Avila, for all

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the deep spirituality she wrote, she said, This

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point of your life, the point of life you're

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in, she said, you know what your most important

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question is? Spiritual question is, how can I

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be more helpful? Notice this. How can I? See,

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you're in that phase. How can you be more helpful?

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How can you do it better? How can you be a better,

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you know, everything, you know? Like, for instance,

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are you a married man with kids? I am. Yeah.

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Okay. So how can you be a better husband, better

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father, a better mentor, a better, you know,

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just how can you do it better? But you're going

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to see at a certain point, you still will work

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that till you die. But at a certain point, something

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else comes in, you know. And, you know, at the

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time about you become a grandparent, you retire,

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see the kids are raised, the mortgage is paid

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and so on. But then you don't stop living. But

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now you have to ask yourself. in these last years,

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how can I live so that my death is going to be

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a great gift to your kids? You know, how do you

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do that? How do you give your death away? Or

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another image I use, I just hint at it in the

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book, but in the programs we have here, I really

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develop it. I always say that, well, I'll give

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you the image from Scripture, you know, which

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is an incredible story, but something we don't

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think of it. But they said, when Sarah was 70,

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And Abraham was 80. God said, leave your land.

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Go to another country. And when you get there,

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Sarah's going to become pregnant. She's 70 years

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old. Then they leave. Now the story takes another.

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It takes them 20 years to get there. Then when

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he's 100, she's 90, they have Isaac. Well, I

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don't know what happened historically, but that's

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an incredible metaphor. What is going to be your

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post -menopausal pregnancy? What's going to be

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your post -youthful generativity? Like right

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now, you're a generative man. You're generating

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stuff. Okay. But that type of generativity, you

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won't be raising kids. You won't be paying a

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mortgage and so on. You know, what's going to

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be the new kid you have after 75, after 80? Hmm.

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And how do you give your life away? See, right

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now you're doing a lot of stuff for your kids,

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but how do you die so that your death is your

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last greatest gift to your kids, to your family,

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to the community, and so on? And that's kind

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of the last movement. Get your life together,

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give your life away, and give your death away.

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In chapter three of his book, Insane for the

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Light, Father Ronald Rollheiser maps out seven

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movements that help us move towards spiritual

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maturity. Here they are. He says, moving from

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resentment to gratitude, from bitterness to forgiveness,

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from imagination to faith, from wishful thinking

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and natural optimism to hope, from sophistication

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to childlikeness. from control to surrender,

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and from achievement to fruitfulness. Let me

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read those again. From resentment to gratitude,

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from bitterness to forgiveness, from imagination

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to faith, from wishful thinking and natural optimism

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to hope, from sophistication to childlikeness,

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from control to surrender, and from achievement

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to fruitfulness. Our achievements, he writes

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later on, are things we have accomplished. Our

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fruitfulness is the positive long -term effect

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these achievements have on others. As you hear

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Father Ron's words in these seven movements that

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he mentions in his book, what is it that stirs

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your heart? What are you holding on to that God

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is inviting you to let go? Now back to the conversation.

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Yeah, how do you give your death away? How do

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you give your death away? A number of things.

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First of all, you do it by, I want to quote Henry

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Nowen. Henry Nowen said, your task is you want

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to die without leaving behind any bitterness.

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any anger, any grudges, any angers, and so on.

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You give your death away in the last years by

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completely mellowing your spirit or trying to,

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and also simply by accepting limitations so that

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you don't become an angry old man, you know?

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If I become an angry old man, I'm going to leave

00:15:11.620 --> 00:15:14.600
that anger behind, you know? Or if I have grudges,

00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:17.980
unresolved bitterness and so on, I'm going to

00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:20.669
leave that behind, you know? We leave a spirit

00:15:20.669 --> 00:15:23.389
behind. Jesus left the spirit behind, you know.

00:15:23.629 --> 00:15:25.590
And, you know, that isn't abstract. You experience

00:15:25.590 --> 00:15:28.309
that, you know, everybody you've been close to

00:15:28.309 --> 00:15:31.889
has died. At a certain point, you get what their

00:15:31.889 --> 00:15:35.909
spirit was. And they were a good person, even

00:15:35.909 --> 00:15:37.710
though that's not false. Or sometimes people

00:15:37.710 --> 00:15:42.230
say, he was just a terrible man, you know. See,

00:15:42.330 --> 00:15:48.379
you give your death away by accepting. accepting

00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:50.759
dying and aging and stuff in such a way without

00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.879
bitterness, without anger, without shame, without,

00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.639
you know, that you leave behind a pure spirit

00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:02.340
the way Jesus did. Yeah, it's, I think that's

00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:04.240
why I kind of mentioned that at the beginning

00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:08.940
too, is that this whole book, like from discovering

00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:11.899
your life to giving your life away to then giving

00:16:11.899 --> 00:16:15.220
your death away. I mean, the whole thing just

00:16:15.220 --> 00:16:19.080
feels like a spirituality of letting go that's

00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.220
moving you towards spiritual maturity. I mean,

00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:26.000
it's very difficult, but beautiful. And there

00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:29.399
were two themes early on that you hit on that

00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:33.230
I found them to be very... deeply impactful for

00:16:33.230 --> 00:16:36.350
me. And it's these two contrasting notions of

00:16:36.350 --> 00:16:40.370
metanoia and paranoia. Can you delve into that?

00:16:41.169 --> 00:16:44.470
Yes. In fact, that one I can give you a visual

00:16:44.470 --> 00:16:47.610
image. First of all, the word. That's the first

00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:49.669
word out of Jesus' mouth in the Gospels. Jesus

00:16:49.669 --> 00:16:53.529
says, except in English, we say repent. But the

00:16:53.529 --> 00:16:56.210
Greek word there in Scripture is metanoia, do

00:16:56.210 --> 00:16:59.190
metanoia. And actually, the English word repent

00:16:59.190 --> 00:17:01.970
doesn't serve us well. Because if I say to you,

00:17:01.990 --> 00:17:04.190
repent, it kind of implies you did something

00:17:04.190 --> 00:17:06.250
wrong and you've got to come back from it. That's

00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:08.950
not what Jesus is saying. In a certain sense,

00:17:09.109 --> 00:17:12.470
that's his message. Notice it comes from two

00:17:12.470 --> 00:17:16.269
English words, meta, which we have. Meta means

00:17:16.269 --> 00:17:19.849
above, and noia comes from the word nus, mind.

00:17:20.450 --> 00:17:24.450
It really means the above mind. Jesus is saying,

00:17:24.509 --> 00:17:31.170
put on your higher mind, your meta mind, in the

00:17:31.170 --> 00:17:35.849
good news. Now, what's your metamind? You know,

00:17:35.869 --> 00:17:39.009
the ancients, the church fathers, and they weren't

00:17:39.009 --> 00:17:41.150
psychologically sophisticated, but they had this

00:17:41.150 --> 00:17:43.670
right. They said, you know, like, you have two

00:17:43.670 --> 00:17:46.410
minds. And they weren't talking in the Jungian

00:17:46.410 --> 00:17:48.869
sense. They were saying two minds that every

00:17:48.869 --> 00:17:54.509
one of us has a noble, great, grand, big, hearted

00:17:54.509 --> 00:17:58.579
mind. And all of us have a petty, wounded, Narrow

00:17:58.579 --> 00:18:00.960
mind. They said, and at any given moment, you

00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.579
can be operating out of one or the other. So,

00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:05.839
and you can switch pretty quickly. So imagine

00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:07.900
you get up some morning, Stephen, and you're

00:18:07.900 --> 00:18:12.019
feeling noble, generous. That day you die for

00:18:12.019 --> 00:18:14.839
the world and so on. You go to work and somebody

00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.740
insults you. And in one minute, you freeze over,

00:18:17.900 --> 00:18:22.359
you know, SOB and so on. And you become very

00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.000
petty. So they would say, which of those is you?

00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:28.769
They're both you. See, you can be operating out

00:18:28.769 --> 00:18:31.609
of what's highest in you, your metanus, or you

00:18:31.609 --> 00:18:33.910
can be operating out of your pettiness, you know,

00:18:33.930 --> 00:18:37.829
so that Jesus calls us to that. Now, Henry Nouwen,

00:18:37.950 --> 00:18:40.750
the very first book he wrote in English, it's

00:18:40.750 --> 00:18:42.789
a wonderful little book called With Open Hands,

00:18:43.029 --> 00:18:46.890
and it's that, and he uses this image. Basically,

00:18:46.970 --> 00:18:50.710
he says, there are postures. He says, see, the

00:18:50.710 --> 00:18:54.029
posture of paranoia is the posture of the clenched

00:18:54.029 --> 00:18:58.470
fists. You're defending yourself. paranoia, okay?

00:18:58.690 --> 00:19:01.529
And the posture of metanoia is Jesus on the cross,

00:19:01.750 --> 00:19:05.750
arms open, not protective, hands open, nails

00:19:05.750 --> 00:19:09.250
through the hands. He said, that's metanoia.

00:19:10.210 --> 00:19:13.710
And in Greek, it puns with the word paranoia.

00:19:14.970 --> 00:19:18.690
Metanoia is the unparanoia. And normally, we

00:19:18.690 --> 00:19:21.490
want to protect ourselves. We're paranoid. Protect,

00:19:21.690 --> 00:19:24.829
protect, protect. And notice... Jesus said, don't

00:19:24.829 --> 00:19:27.809
protect, don't protect. But I like the expression,

00:19:27.990 --> 00:19:32.190
put on your higher mind. Today we use the word

00:19:32.190 --> 00:19:35.930
meta in English. Get into your meta mind, your

00:19:35.930 --> 00:19:38.849
grand mind, rather than your petty, wounded mind.

00:19:39.849 --> 00:19:44.029
Yes. And that openness that you're talking about

00:19:44.029 --> 00:19:50.650
is, would you kind of describe that as a... openness

00:19:50.650 --> 00:19:54.990
to transformation i mean i i think when i'm paranoid

00:19:54.990 --> 00:20:00.819
on some level i'm transmitting i'm i'm I'm not

00:20:00.819 --> 00:20:03.519
transforming my pain, as Richard Rohr has said,

00:20:03.619 --> 00:20:06.640
like I'm transmitting it and I'm projecting it

00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.359
out and I'm just kind of reactive to what's going

00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:12.180
on deep inside of me. And it often leaves a trail

00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:15.140
of destruction in its path. Whereas metanoia,

00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:18.579
as it pertains to spiritual maturity, is that

00:20:18.579 --> 00:20:22.900
openness like, hey, this hurts. This is brutal.

00:20:23.059 --> 00:20:26.259
It feels like letting go. It's excruciating.

00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.940
It's a complete loss of control. But I am going

00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:33.599
to dare to allow God to transform me in this

00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.779
process. Am I tracking there? Perfect. And, you

00:20:37.779 --> 00:20:40.220
know, remember, Rohr has this expression, like

00:20:40.220 --> 00:20:44.049
I said, Whatever pain you don't transform, you'll

00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:47.609
retransmit, you know, so that's so true. And,

00:20:47.630 --> 00:20:49.490
you know, I have a chapter in the book, or I

00:20:49.490 --> 00:20:51.390
think I have sections in there, or in a previous

00:20:51.390 --> 00:20:54.369
book on pondering, the Greek sense of, you know,

00:20:54.430 --> 00:20:58.650
let me just explain that. See, in Scripture,

00:20:58.769 --> 00:21:01.289
they say Mary pondered these things in her heart,

00:21:01.329 --> 00:21:04.150
you know. Notice those were times when there

00:21:04.150 --> 00:21:06.309
was a lot of confusion. You're going to get pregnant,

00:21:06.349 --> 00:21:09.210
but you don't have a husband. Or when Zachariah

00:21:09.210 --> 00:21:12.339
says to her, you know, your child, a sword's

00:21:12.339 --> 00:21:13.799
going to pierce your own heart, and he's going

00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:15.220
to be a contradiction, and so on and so forth.

00:21:15.220 --> 00:21:19.599
And Mary pondered these things. Now, the software

00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:23.960
we think in is Greek. So for us, pondering means

00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.200
to think deep thoughts and sort through. That's

00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:28.259
not what it meant for a Hebrew. For a Hebrew,

00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:32.920
it meant to carry and transform tension. So the

00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:35.960
image I use for that is, for instance, Mary under

00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.460
the cross. When Mary's under the cross, notice,

00:21:39.950 --> 00:21:43.049
She isn't overtly doing anything. She's not trying

00:21:43.049 --> 00:21:45.809
to stop the crucifixion. She isn't protesting.

00:21:45.910 --> 00:21:48.490
She isn't shouting. She isn't protesting Jesus'

00:21:48.670 --> 00:21:52.150
innocence. She was pondering. She was doing the

00:21:52.150 --> 00:21:54.609
only thing you can do in that situation, and

00:21:54.609 --> 00:21:59.289
that is to absorb that and transform it. Notice

00:21:59.289 --> 00:22:00.869
how different it would be if she'd been under

00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:03.029
the cross saying, you're all horrible people.

00:22:03.190 --> 00:22:06.230
You're terrible people. She'd have been, you

00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:10.859
know, simply retransmitting. The anger that's

00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:15.059
there, you know, you have to absorb that. And,

00:22:15.099 --> 00:22:20.559
you know, and that transforms you. And also,

00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:24.059
you know, John of the Cross, and I teach courses,

00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.660
and he would say, you know what that does? It

00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:32.259
burns. It burns the weaknesses out of you. So

00:22:32.259 --> 00:22:34.920
the way you overcome a weakness is not to focus

00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:36.599
on it. You know, why I can't control my temper.

00:22:37.900 --> 00:22:40.700
What you do is you fan the flames of your higher

00:22:40.700 --> 00:22:42.920
virtues and they become a flame where after a

00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:44.559
while in your life, there's any room for that

00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:48.920
anymore. And healing works by calling people

00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.079
to their bigness. You know, if I say to you,

00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.579
to someone, well, you're a bigot, you know, or

00:22:55.579 --> 00:22:59.380
he says, you know, you're too big a guy. You're

00:22:59.380 --> 00:23:01.640
too good a person to think like that. Notice,

00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:05.420
see the difference? You know, when you're telling

00:23:05.420 --> 00:23:08.920
someone, you're a selfish, you know, you're too

00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:11.359
good a person to be thinking this. You know,

00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:14.539
you're calling them to their meta, to their metanus,

00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:19.319
you know? Absolutely. Yeah. I'd love for you

00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:23.059
to stay with this for a second. I mean, I'm really

00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:27.539
intrigued by that notion of pondering in the

00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:29.980
Greek approach compared to the Hebrew approach.

00:23:30.140 --> 00:23:34.500
And I experienced this. personally, like, I mean,

00:23:34.579 --> 00:23:38.700
on a weekly basis where, and maybe this is a

00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:41.359
Western thing, maybe a personality thing, maybe

00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.819
all of the above. But when I think of pondering,

00:23:45.819 --> 00:23:48.140
I'm doing it again, I'm thinking of pondering,

00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:51.480
you know, like, but, but it's always thoughts.

00:23:51.579 --> 00:23:54.599
It's working things out in my head, trying to

00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:56.380
make sense of things. And not that that's all

00:23:56.380 --> 00:24:01.549
bad. But it is. There is an aspect of it that

00:24:01.549 --> 00:24:04.670
is kind of like intellectual masturbation, where

00:24:04.670 --> 00:24:10.430
it is that grasping for control and thinking

00:24:10.430 --> 00:24:15.490
that I can think my way there to gain a deeper

00:24:15.490 --> 00:24:20.390
sense of control in my life. But then Mary's

00:24:20.390 --> 00:24:24.549
pondering, the Hebrew notion of pondering, that

00:24:24.549 --> 00:24:28.140
notion of... Again, it's letting go again. It

00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:32.480
feels like you are working things through your

00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.779
head on some level, but it's also more the heart

00:24:34.779 --> 00:24:38.779
space. And can you help me with that a little

00:24:38.779 --> 00:24:41.140
bit? Because I just think that is so important

00:24:41.140 --> 00:24:44.700
in moving towards spiritual maturity. But oh

00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:47.920
my goodness, it is challenging to do in our culture

00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:50.039
where we kind of tend to think our way there.

00:24:51.309 --> 00:24:53.730
Yeah. Okay. First of all, I agree with you. We

00:24:53.730 --> 00:24:56.430
don't want to denigrate thinking as its place.

00:24:56.930 --> 00:25:00.450
But you're not going to think your way out of

00:25:00.450 --> 00:25:03.670
these. Mary wasn't going to think her way out

00:25:03.670 --> 00:25:06.809
of under the cross, the pain and so on. You have

00:25:06.809 --> 00:25:13.190
to absorb it. In Hebrew, pondering means to absorb

00:25:13.190 --> 00:25:18.349
the tension and transform it. Let's just stay

00:25:18.349 --> 00:25:21.329
with Mary under the cross. What's she doing under

00:25:21.329 --> 00:25:24.789
the cross? Well, overtly nothing. But she's doing

00:25:24.789 --> 00:25:29.509
the only thing possible, which is absorbing that.

00:25:29.910 --> 00:25:32.730
Basically, what Jesus says, sometimes darkness

00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:36.430
just has its hour. And there's nothing other

00:25:36.430 --> 00:25:39.710
than to absorb it. Otherwise, you're going to

00:25:39.710 --> 00:25:43.869
help perpetuate the darkness. You know, the example

00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:48.150
I use. between the two types of pondering. You

00:25:48.150 --> 00:25:51.289
know, I live in Texas now, and we still have

00:25:51.289 --> 00:25:54.490
the death penalty here. You know, thank God it's

00:25:54.490 --> 00:25:56.369
not as frequent as before, but we still have

00:25:56.369 --> 00:25:58.769
the death penalty. But if you ever go out where

00:25:58.769 --> 00:26:01.349
they do the death penalty, you know, there's

00:26:01.349 --> 00:26:04.329
very few people in the room, but outside you're

00:26:04.329 --> 00:26:07.069
going to have three kinds of people. You're going

00:26:07.069 --> 00:26:08.869
to have people who are protesting for the death

00:26:08.869 --> 00:26:11.490
penalty, saying, this brings closure, finally

00:26:11.490 --> 00:26:14.140
closure. And you have people protesting against

00:26:14.140 --> 00:26:16.819
the death penalty, saying, you know, we're just

00:26:16.819 --> 00:26:19.059
as much of a murderer as he is. We're killing

00:26:19.059 --> 00:26:21.440
somebody. And then off in the corner you have

00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:25.079
Sister Helen Prejean and a few nuns with candles.

00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:27.640
They're saying nothing. They're just standing

00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:29.680
there with candles. That's Mary under the cross

00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:31.940
saying, today we can't stop the crucifixion.

00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:36.119
Nobody can. Darkness. But we can stop some of

00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:38.019
the anger and the bitterness and the tension

00:26:38.019 --> 00:26:40.519
by absorbing it. Notice they're not accusing

00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:44.970
anybody. They're just there, you know. And that

00:26:44.970 --> 00:26:48.589
is the task of an adult in the room. You know,

00:26:48.630 --> 00:26:51.730
you're a parent. Your task is to absorb your

00:26:51.730 --> 00:26:54.829
kids' tensions. A teacher's task is to absorb

00:26:54.829 --> 00:26:58.029
the tensions of the students. I'm a priest. My

00:26:58.029 --> 00:27:01.430
task is to absorb the tensions in a parish and

00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:04.529
so on, you know, because it's the only way they're

00:27:04.529 --> 00:27:07.390
going to go away. You know, we say Jesus took

00:27:07.390 --> 00:27:10.069
away the sins of the world. He didn't do it magically,

00:27:10.329 --> 00:27:13.259
you know. You did it by absorbing, you know,

00:27:13.259 --> 00:27:15.440
you have to take the way the sins of, you know,

00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:18.440
the tensions of your dinner table by absorbing

00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:20.519
it, which doesn't mean you can't correct your

00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:22.599
kids. It doesn't mean, you know, but basically

00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:27.660
your task as an adult is to absorb that. Yeah.

00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:30.799
You know, this, it's really interesting you bring

00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.740
this up because this showed up in my life two

00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:40.039
days ago. I coach high school golf and our girls

00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:43.000
team. We entered the second day of the state

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:44.799
tournament, the final day of the state tournament,

00:27:44.859 --> 00:27:48.480
down by 13 strokes, which is a pretty big hole

00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.440
to climb out of in golf. And these girls just

00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.779
fought back, clawed back, like all day long.

00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:59.500
And the final group is on the 18th hole, and

00:27:59.500 --> 00:28:02.359
we're actually leading by two. We've done the

00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:05.000
unthinkable. We have come back, and now we've

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:09.319
gained 15 strokes that day. Their number one

00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:13.180
knocks it in the hole. from 70 yards out. And

00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:15.980
I mean, it was a remarkable shot. It was beautiful.

00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:19.660
Like their team is going crazy and, and my girls

00:28:19.660 --> 00:28:22.019
are sitting in the tension of that and it ends

00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:24.799
up going to a playoff where they lost by one.

00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:29.200
And as I'm driving the bus back, I mean, it is,

00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.099
it is the most gutted. I've ever felt as a coach.

00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.359
The most proud I've ever been for a team, but

00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:39.500
also the most gutted. And you're sitting in that

00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:42.519
tension that you're talking about. And part of

00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.670
me started to do the whole pondering thing. which

00:28:45.670 --> 00:28:48.809
is very easy in golf. Like they're doing it as

00:28:48.809 --> 00:28:51.329
players. I'm doing it as a coach. And we're going

00:28:51.329 --> 00:28:53.630
back in our heads and thinking, oh, if I would

00:28:53.630 --> 00:28:55.450
have just done that, if I would have just said

00:28:55.450 --> 00:28:57.450
this as a coach, maybe that would have saved

00:28:57.450 --> 00:28:59.269
a stroke. They're saying, oh, if I only would

00:28:59.269 --> 00:29:01.130
have made that putt or not made that decision,

00:29:01.309 --> 00:29:02.809
that would have saved us a stroke we would have

00:29:02.809 --> 00:29:06.049
won. So you're kind of going, you're spiraling

00:29:06.049 --> 00:29:10.289
into an unhealthy place in your mind. But then

00:29:10.289 --> 00:29:13.910
something else began to arise for me as a coach.

00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.359
in those fragile, broken moments, something really

00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:21.640
interesting can happen is that truth rises up

00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:27.220
too. And it's very complex, but there's this

00:29:27.220 --> 00:29:30.440
immense pride for them. And you begin to see

00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:33.920
that this wasn't about winning. Winning is great,

00:29:34.059 --> 00:29:37.559
but it's about the friendships, the grit that

00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:42.940
they showed. How does this... How does this fragile

00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:45.400
bus ride where these girls have been crying,

00:29:45.500 --> 00:29:49.000
struggling, how does it become a mechanism for

00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:54.839
transformation? I don't know. Is that a good

00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:57.579
example of what you're talking about here as

00:29:57.579 --> 00:30:03.319
far as what our role is as people moving towards

00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.500
spiritual maturity to absorb the tension? This

00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:11.779
stuff is all very fresh for me. But you're touching

00:30:11.779 --> 00:30:14.500
on a second part, which has its own deep meaning,

00:30:14.539 --> 00:30:18.759
and that is sometimes just the frustration, pain,

00:30:19.059 --> 00:30:24.440
and so on, is what deepens us. I'll give you

00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:26.839
an example. I don't think many people really

00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:32.420
get this in Scripture. When John, Peter, and

00:30:32.420 --> 00:30:37.019
John, anyway, the two disciples come up to Jesus,

00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:41.059
and they say, Could you arrange that we are seated

00:30:41.059 --> 00:30:45.579
at seats of glory? And he says to them, he doesn't

00:30:45.579 --> 00:30:47.240
say, didn't you hear my homily and humility?

00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:50.880
He says, can you drink the cup? But the cup is

00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:55.039
the cup of humiliation, of loss. And they say,

00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.880
well, yes, we can. And he says, well, you will,

00:30:57.940 --> 00:31:00.420
because everybody will. We're all going to suffer

00:31:00.420 --> 00:31:02.759
pain and humiliation and loss. But you might

00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.579
not get the glory. And why not? Because, okay,

00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.950
you use a perfect example. These girls lost.

00:31:10.630 --> 00:31:14.269
You, in a way, lost. Now, that is going to drive

00:31:14.269 --> 00:31:18.569
you deeper. But it can drive you deeper in a

00:31:18.569 --> 00:31:21.289
way that you become more compassionate or that

00:31:21.289 --> 00:31:24.829
you become more bitter. You know, like kids who

00:31:24.829 --> 00:31:26.690
shoot their classmates, you can be sure they've

00:31:26.690 --> 00:31:29.750
been humiliated a lot. But, you know, it made

00:31:29.750 --> 00:31:34.190
them bitter. See, so that's actually a kairos,

00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:36.230
if I can use a biblical example, moment for those

00:31:36.230 --> 00:31:39.559
kids. You know, they've lost. They're frustrated.

00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:43.279
And, you know, and that's going to make them

00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:46.259
deeper, you know. So actually winning doesn't

00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:51.319
do a lot for us sometimes. Exactly. Losing, but

00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:53.839
it can make them deep in the wrong way. It can

00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.220
make them bitter and angry, you know, as opposed

00:31:57.220 --> 00:32:00.299
to more compassion, more understanding, better

00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:07.319
sports. We lost. Yes. And in my experience. humiliation

00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:11.519
losing failure mistakes whatever word you want

00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:16.619
to use in my experience in those really frail

00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:22.160
moments you begin to also see what's really true

00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.680
there's a contemplative kind of seeing dimension

00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:29.599
in that where all your values kind of rise up

00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.220
to the surface and you realize this is about

00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:35.220
love and transformation all along this is about

00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:39.720
growing deepening friendships you know um really

00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:43.940
becoming who we are meant to become and that's

00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:46.319
where losing and brokenness becomes an immense

00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:50.920
blessing in sports in life even in tragedy well

00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:54.740
i i don't want to just that i don't want to flippantly

00:32:54.740 --> 00:32:57.359
bring in like tragedy or trauma like there's

00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.819
that's a whole other thing but the these natural

00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:03.079
kind of seasons of life where it just doesn't

00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:05.579
go the way you wanted it to go can deepen you,

00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:08.440
like you said. Anything else to add there? Can

00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:11.740
I use a colorful word? Please, yeah. Okay. You

00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:13.339
know what it does? It cuts away the bullshit.

00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:17.019
Yeah, yes. Okay, sorry about the colorful word.

00:33:17.140 --> 00:33:19.779
Yes. Basically, it cuts that away. You know,

00:33:19.819 --> 00:33:22.099
all of a sudden, you're just seeing a lot more

00:33:22.099 --> 00:33:24.980
clearly. Now, you can choose badly in that clarity,

00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:28.180
but that's a graced moment. You get a chance.

00:33:28.259 --> 00:33:30.299
You grow up. You grow up through those things.

00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:33.440
You deepen, you know. You know, I once went to

00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.660
a talk by James Hillman, the famous philosopher.

00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:37.940
He's really deep in his thought. And he said

00:33:37.940 --> 00:33:40.059
to this, he said, the audience said, check yourself.

00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:42.720
And they said, think of all the things that have

00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:46.400
made you deep. You know, he said, in almost every

00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:48.940
case, you'd be ashamed to talk about it. Some

00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:53.079
humiliation. He said, and, you know, your glory

00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:56.700
moments, he said, didn't necessarily bring depth

00:33:56.700 --> 00:33:59.200
to you. And he used even another example. He

00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:02.119
said, imagine a family. and they have two sons,

00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:05.299
and one is a famous athlete, and the other is

00:34:05.299 --> 00:34:07.339
a Down syndrome. He said, who brings character

00:34:07.339 --> 00:34:10.219
to the family? It's a Down syndrome. No, the

00:34:10.219 --> 00:34:12.639
other guy brings glory to the family. See, our

00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:16.199
triumphal minutes, they bring us glory. Our down

00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:18.780
moments, they bring us depth. You know, like

00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:21.480
I said, it's like, if you think, if you're honest,

00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:25.940
everything that made you deep was painful. You

00:34:25.940 --> 00:34:27.380
know, it's interesting. I'll give you a powerful

00:34:27.380 --> 00:34:29.780
example. You know, Trezor Lezeu, the little flower.

00:34:31.130 --> 00:34:33.929
She was a doctor of the soul at age 25. But you

00:34:33.929 --> 00:34:38.550
know something? At age 9 and age 11, she almost

00:34:38.550 --> 00:34:42.409
died of clinical depression twice. She suffered,

00:34:42.570 --> 00:34:46.230
you know. You know, later on, she became, you

00:34:46.230 --> 00:34:49.110
know, very resilient and so on. But she almost

00:34:49.110 --> 00:34:51.090
died of clinical depression a couple times in

00:34:51.090 --> 00:34:57.349
life. You know, so no doubt, not a surprise,

00:34:57.469 --> 00:35:00.610
she had depth, you know. Yes. Well, one of the

00:35:00.610 --> 00:35:04.170
phrases you use in your book is the deeper dynamics

00:35:04.170 --> 00:35:08.190
of faith. And you really bring that in in talking

00:35:08.190 --> 00:35:11.610
about Mother Teresa. Can you delve into that?

00:35:11.710 --> 00:35:16.210
How does a dark night of faith mirror the experience

00:35:16.210 --> 00:35:20.150
of dying, letting go? Okay. First, I'll explain

00:35:20.150 --> 00:35:21.989
what a dark night of faith is. First of all,

00:35:22.050 --> 00:35:26.710
a dark night of faith is something that comes

00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:29.610
on you. It's a maturity. leads to real faith.

00:35:29.730 --> 00:35:31.769
And I think I used this analogy in the book.

00:35:31.849 --> 00:35:34.789
It's a beautiful little piece from Thomas Keating.

00:35:35.090 --> 00:35:37.550
And Thomas Keating says, you know, I'll give

00:35:37.550 --> 00:35:39.449
you the story and then I'll apply it to faith.

00:35:39.570 --> 00:35:42.650
He says, imagine you're a mother fish, the bottom

00:35:42.650 --> 00:35:46.650
of the ocean. And these baby fish, they say,

00:35:46.789 --> 00:35:51.269
mother, what's this water we hear about, you

00:35:51.269 --> 00:35:54.099
know? How can you give them water? Well, today

00:35:54.099 --> 00:35:55.980
the mother fish set up a PowerPoint, and she

00:35:55.980 --> 00:35:57.960
showed them slides. They're at the bottom of

00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:59.539
the ocean, they're watching slides of Niagara

00:35:59.539 --> 00:36:03.539
Falls, a water tap, an ocean, rain. Now, it's

00:36:03.539 --> 00:36:05.480
interesting, just the irony. They're at the bottom

00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:08.420
of the ocean, they're in 300 feet of water, they're

00:36:08.420 --> 00:36:12.079
intrigued by the slides, you know? It's giving

00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:14.219
them image of water, but notice, they're slides,

00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:18.480
they're not water. See, so our concepts of God,

00:36:18.500 --> 00:36:20.659
our image of God, even Scripture, beautiful.

00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:23.340
It's a PowerPoint. It's a PowerPoint presentation

00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:25.900
about God. And it works. And you need that for

00:36:25.900 --> 00:36:29.239
a while. But at a certain point, the mother fish

00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:32.460
shuts off the projector. Just sit in the water.

00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:34.880
Just let it flow through you. But notice that

00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.579
sitting in the water, you don't necessarily have

00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:41.199
a concept of water. See, so when you're younger,

00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.260
that's the way faith works. Younger in faith,

00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.010
not just in age, you know. And the mystics say,

00:36:47.030 --> 00:36:49.210
God gives you, we give all these wonderful images

00:36:49.210 --> 00:36:52.030
and we get turned on and people can pray in tongues

00:36:52.030 --> 00:36:56.130
and so on. And that's all good. Okay. But it's

00:36:56.130 --> 00:36:59.070
not going to last. You know, see, God, the first

00:36:59.070 --> 00:37:01.090
thing as Christians teach about God is God is

00:37:01.090 --> 00:37:04.010
ineffable. God can't be captured in a thought.

00:37:04.570 --> 00:37:06.550
You can try this on your listeners. When I say

00:37:06.550 --> 00:37:08.849
like, God can't be captured in a thought, why

00:37:08.849 --> 00:37:12.230
not? And I always say this very simply, infinity.

00:37:12.909 --> 00:37:16.289
You can't picture infinity except people count

00:37:16.289 --> 00:37:18.210
to the highest number it's possible to count

00:37:18.210 --> 00:37:21.429
to. Tell me when you get there. You will never

00:37:21.429 --> 00:37:25.489
get there, you know. See, and God has no beginning

00:37:25.489 --> 00:37:28.389
or no end, so you can't circumscribe. You know,

00:37:28.429 --> 00:37:31.010
you've got to think something you'll get around

00:37:31.010 --> 00:37:35.309
it. You can't get around God. You can't get around

00:37:35.309 --> 00:37:37.869
the highest number. And so at a certain point,

00:37:38.010 --> 00:37:42.000
and this is, we have to move from... images of

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.340
God to just knowing God, just trusting, you know.

00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:48.780
See, you can know God. At a certain point, you

00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:52.139
can't think God, you know. See, and it's interesting,

00:37:52.300 --> 00:37:54.599
it often happens to the people who are deepest,

00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:57.840
you know. But Mother Teresa died, and there were

00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:00.039
all kinds of things, and even Time magazine,

00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:04.239
was she an atheist or spiritual? How could that

00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:07.400
happen to Mother Teresa? Why wouldn't it happen

00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:11.099
to Mother Teresa? Yes, because they essentially

00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:16.099
discovered that she had been incredibly depressed

00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:18.840
for decades, correct? Yeah. That's the story.

00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:22.179
It happened to Jesus on the cross when he's dying.

00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:25.019
He says, my God, my God, why forsake me? He wasn't

00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:27.559
saying that just for the audience. At that moment,

00:38:27.619 --> 00:38:31.179
all the PowerPoint was shut off. And, you know,

00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:34.440
he had to cry for help. That's the ultimate dark

00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:40.619
night. Yeah, we've come back to the cross many

00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:45.880
times from Mary's perspective and how she really

00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:49.519
stepped into that space of transformation and

00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.840
letting go and helplessness, humiliation that

00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:57.360
we're discussing. Jesus's words, my God, my God,

00:38:57.460 --> 00:39:00.519
why have you forsaken me? You have a beautiful,

00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:04.909
beautiful section in the book where you... dive

00:39:04.909 --> 00:39:07.989
into that. What do those words mean, and how

00:39:07.989 --> 00:39:13.230
can they comfort us today? Well, first of all,

00:39:13.250 --> 00:39:16.710
I'm going to make a, let's just jump ahead a

00:39:16.710 --> 00:39:18.989
little bit. When he says that, my God, my God,

00:39:19.050 --> 00:39:21.190
why have you forsaken me? He said, then, that's

00:39:21.190 --> 00:39:24.650
in Mark's gospel. And then Mark's gospel, then

00:39:24.650 --> 00:39:28.530
he bowed his head and gave over his spirit. That's

00:39:28.530 --> 00:39:30.110
very interesting. It's an interesting verse.

00:39:30.510 --> 00:39:33.909
Notice, giving over is not resignation, you know.

00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.360
See, there's a difference. If the playground

00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:38.599
bully has you pinned and said, now say, uncle,

00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:43.559
or I'll break your arm, you resign. You give

00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:47.980
it over in love. So basically, it's a complete

00:39:47.980 --> 00:39:50.420
act of trust where you just give yourself over.

00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:55.920
But notice, it's a positive act. That's the opposite

00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:58.500
of like despair. Well, okay, I give up. Nothing.

00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:02.639
Basically, you're put into this impasse of darkness.

00:40:03.389 --> 00:40:05.190
So at a certain point, you have a choice. I can

00:40:05.190 --> 00:40:08.849
despair or I can trust. He said, I want to trust.

00:40:09.170 --> 00:40:10.969
You know, let me give myself over and so on.

00:40:11.210 --> 00:40:14.309
Now, not everybody gets tested like that. You

00:40:14.309 --> 00:40:16.869
know, in the Gospels, there's two versions. They

00:40:16.869 --> 00:40:19.889
are fathered. And the one we say, we say, and

00:40:19.889 --> 00:40:22.550
lead us not into temptation, you know, which

00:40:22.550 --> 00:40:25.510
is actually a bad translation. You know, it's

00:40:25.510 --> 00:40:29.670
almost like, don't lead me into traffic. It should

00:40:29.670 --> 00:40:31.869
be worded, don't let me be tested, you know.

00:40:32.269 --> 00:40:34.369
And the other versions just put that, we say,

00:40:34.469 --> 00:40:37.829
and do not put me to the test. When you're praying,

00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:40.269
God said, if you can spare me from that, do.

00:40:41.630 --> 00:40:45.849
Like, you know, I certainly want to be a spiritual

00:40:45.849 --> 00:40:48.289
athlete. Just, you know, like, you tested Jesus

00:40:48.289 --> 00:40:50.349
like that, maybe cut me some slack, you know.

00:40:52.070 --> 00:40:56.019
You know, so that. I don't know if I told the

00:40:56.019 --> 00:40:58.039
story in the book about Henry Nouwen, the famous,

00:40:58.099 --> 00:41:02.400
his mother dying. Yeah. Yes. You know, so, so

00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:04.980
he says like, he said, my mother was the most

00:41:04.980 --> 00:41:08.800
Christian woman I'd ever met. He says, said every

00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:11.559
day she would pray, Jesus, I want to live like

00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:14.599
you and I want to die like you. So he's teaching

00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.539
it in Boston. He hears his mother's dying in

00:41:17.539 --> 00:41:19.619
Amsterdam. He's flying back. He said, on the

00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:22.420
plane at this fantasy, I'm going to hold my mother's

00:41:22.420 --> 00:41:24.480
hand and she's going to console me and so on.

00:41:24.500 --> 00:41:26.460
He said, and everything happened opposite. He

00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:28.699
said, my mother was in darkness. She was crying

00:41:28.699 --> 00:41:30.880
out, you know, like, where are you, God? And

00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.239
so on. He said, completely, discombobulated me.

00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:37.219
He said, and I didn't get it until I was flying

00:41:37.219 --> 00:41:40.530
home. I got it, he said. I got it. she prayed

00:41:40.530 --> 00:41:41.969
every day, I want to live like Jesus, I want

00:41:41.969 --> 00:41:44.550
to die like Jesus. She died like Jesus. Jesus

00:41:44.550 --> 00:41:47.409
died crying out, you know. He said, do you want

00:41:47.409 --> 00:41:50.690
to be careful what you pray for? You know, see,

00:41:50.849 --> 00:41:52.690
she was a spiritual athlete. It's the same with

00:41:52.690 --> 00:41:55.610
Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa gave her life completely

00:41:55.610 --> 00:41:59.170
to God and didn't have any, she couldn't get

00:41:59.170 --> 00:42:01.510
the PowerPoints working anymore. Basically, she

00:42:01.510 --> 00:42:04.429
had to completely trust, live in trust, and she

00:42:04.429 --> 00:42:08.250
did. She did. And interestingly, Stephen, that's

00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:11.989
very different than depression. You know, when

00:42:11.989 --> 00:42:14.550
you're in a room and somebody's depressed, they

00:42:14.550 --> 00:42:18.389
take the oxygen out of the room. Mother Teresa

00:42:18.389 --> 00:42:20.550
would light up a room like a light bulb. You

00:42:20.550 --> 00:42:22.730
know, like basically somebody's in the dark night.

00:42:22.849 --> 00:42:24.849
They're not a depressive person to be around.

00:42:25.030 --> 00:42:30.250
They're the opposite. You know, so that depression.

00:42:31.150 --> 00:42:33.630
shouldn't be ever confused with sanctity. It's

00:42:33.630 --> 00:42:37.429
the disease. It's psychological. And you'll sense

00:42:37.429 --> 00:42:39.829
it. You'll sense it. If you're with somebody

00:42:39.829 --> 00:42:41.969
and they're really deep, but they're depressing

00:42:41.969 --> 00:42:45.869
you, they're taking oxygen out of the room, that's

00:42:45.869 --> 00:42:50.909
not a dark night. That's depression. Mother Teresa,

00:42:51.090 --> 00:42:53.690
interesting, nobody even guessed that until she

00:42:53.690 --> 00:42:58.250
published her diaries. You know? Yeah, what?

00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:03.199
You mentioned, and this aligns with Mother Teresa's

00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:06.280
spiritual journey as well, what do you do when

00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:12.820
the PowerPoint stops working? Basically, that's

00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:16.059
a signal to you. God is saying, I'm calling you

00:43:16.059 --> 00:43:20.380
to a deeper level. I don't want you hung up on

00:43:20.380 --> 00:43:26.869
the PowerPoints. I want you hung up on God. I

00:43:26.869 --> 00:43:31.289
want you to move beyond images. I want to give

00:43:31.289 --> 00:43:34.670
you a line from John of the Cross that I make

00:43:34.670 --> 00:43:37.170
students do a term paper on. John of the Cross

00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:39.170
says, when you get to a certain stage in your

00:43:39.170 --> 00:43:44.050
life, not too early, then he said, learn to understand

00:43:44.050 --> 00:43:47.210
more by not understanding than by understanding.

00:43:48.130 --> 00:43:51.110
Let me start again. Learn to understand more

00:43:51.110 --> 00:43:58.900
by not understanding than by understanding. In

00:43:58.900 --> 00:44:01.519
chapter one of his book, Insane for the Light,

00:44:01.699 --> 00:44:05.159
Father Ronald Rollheiser writes, quote, Once

00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:08.239
our focus shifts from worrying about ourselves

00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:11.239
to concern about being a generative woman or

00:44:11.239 --> 00:44:14.360
man, we have crossed the first major barrier

00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:18.380
in terms of human maturity. We have also moved

00:44:18.380 --> 00:44:20.840
from the first essential struggle in our lives,

00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.780
the struggle to get our lives together, to the

00:44:23.780 --> 00:44:26.920
second essential struggle. the struggle to give

00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:31.340
our lives away. We have also found our way back

00:44:31.340 --> 00:44:36.000
home again, end quote. In our interview with

00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:39.920
Father Ron, I like how he talked about how we

00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:44.000
as Christians are called to engage our metamind,

00:44:44.059 --> 00:44:48.000
our higher mind. Lately in my life, I've been

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:50.900
struggling with letting a couple things go, things

00:44:50.900 --> 00:44:53.840
that honestly really hurt me on a deep level.

00:44:54.610 --> 00:44:58.769
And the past keeps intruding the present, I've

00:44:58.769 --> 00:45:01.570
noticed. And I keep thinking that there's something

00:45:01.570 --> 00:45:05.269
more I could do to control the situations or

00:45:05.269 --> 00:45:08.449
prove my point further or whatever it may be.

00:45:09.050 --> 00:45:11.849
But I know deep down that I've said and done

00:45:11.849 --> 00:45:15.130
all that I can. And now I am being invited to

00:45:15.130 --> 00:45:20.000
let go. I know that God is proud of his children

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:23.699
who are wholehearted and kind, who give of themselves

00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:28.099
for others. And faith invites us to dare to see

00:45:28.099 --> 00:45:31.920
what God sees in ourselves, even in situations

00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:36.710
that we can't control. Lately, when bitterness

00:45:36.710 --> 00:45:40.269
or anger or the false sense that there's something

00:45:40.269 --> 00:45:43.769
more I could do to control a situation invades

00:45:43.769 --> 00:45:46.969
my mind again, I've been going back to Father

00:45:46.969 --> 00:45:50.650
Ron's words as a mantra, as a refuge even. And

00:45:50.650 --> 00:45:54.150
he said in our conversation, take on the higher

00:45:54.150 --> 00:46:01.289
mind. Take on the higher mind. This, I think,

00:46:01.309 --> 00:46:04.889
is its own step toward becoming. more generative.

00:46:05.269 --> 00:46:10.530
We give and we give and we give because that's

00:46:10.530 --> 00:46:14.389
what Christ did for us. There's not always glory

00:46:14.389 --> 00:46:18.769
or resolution in taking on the higher mind, but

00:46:18.769 --> 00:46:21.809
I'm comforted that in taking on the higher mind,

00:46:21.889 --> 00:46:24.969
we are declaring our faith and trusting that

00:46:24.969 --> 00:46:28.710
God's path is the right one, that the path of

00:46:28.710 --> 00:46:36.559
love, kindness, service. is the right one. Now

00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:43.579
back to the conversation. So I'll give you a

00:46:43.579 --> 00:46:46.019
simple example of that. Imagine somebody comes

00:46:46.019 --> 00:46:48.260
up to you and says, Stephen, I think I understand

00:46:48.260 --> 00:46:51.139
you. You know, I know your family. I know your

00:46:51.139 --> 00:46:53.760
ethnic background. I know your youth. I know

00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:55.920
your Enneagram number. I know your Myers -Briggs

00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:57.960
number. I know your personality. Do you feel

00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:00.760
very understood? No, I think you say in your

00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:02.860
book you'd feel violated. You'd feel violated.

00:47:02.980 --> 00:47:05.780
Don't cheapen me in that way. Yeah. If somebody

00:47:05.780 --> 00:47:07.059
comes up to you and says, Stephen, I've known

00:47:07.059 --> 00:47:09.280
you for 40 years, you're a mystery. You're a

00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:12.639
mystery to me. Then you've understood. See, it's

00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:14.519
like what God does. You know, Stephen, you've

00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:18.440
known me all these years, but you have to say,

00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:20.159
I've known you all these years, but you're a

00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:22.920
mystery to me. I'm just completely open. See,

00:47:23.059 --> 00:47:26.130
PowerPoints capture pieces. That's your Myers

00:47:26.130 --> 00:47:28.030
-Briggs number. It's this, it's that, and so

00:47:28.030 --> 00:47:32.429
on. So that the mystics say, God takes the PowerPoints

00:47:32.429 --> 00:47:36.269
away. So that you have to sit and say, you understand

00:47:36.269 --> 00:47:39.030
more by not understanding. And that's a deeper

00:47:39.030 --> 00:47:43.570
understanding. Whenever somebody thinks they

00:47:43.570 --> 00:47:46.309
understand you, they're violating you. You're

00:47:46.309 --> 00:47:48.690
not free to be yourself. You're deeper than that.

00:47:48.769 --> 00:47:52.130
You're more than that. And see, God is more than

00:47:52.130 --> 00:47:55.070
that. So all of our PowerPoints, at a certain

00:47:55.070 --> 00:47:57.150
point, and if they don't happen in this life,

00:47:57.250 --> 00:47:59.670
it'll happen when we die. All of a sudden, we're

00:47:59.670 --> 00:48:03.130
face -to -face with the ineffable, with God himself,

00:48:03.329 --> 00:48:09.030
and the PowerPoints are gone. Yeah, yeah. One

00:48:09.030 --> 00:48:12.550
theme... We haven't used this language yet, but

00:48:12.550 --> 00:48:15.329
it continues to show up in this conversation.

00:48:15.550 --> 00:48:18.969
You mentioned resignation earlier, and you're

00:48:18.969 --> 00:48:21.710
so good at this in all your books and this one

00:48:21.710 --> 00:48:25.869
as well, where you take two similar contrasting

00:48:25.869 --> 00:48:29.909
words and you play with those themes and you

00:48:29.909 --> 00:48:36.230
play with activity and passivity. Can you explore

00:48:36.230 --> 00:48:40.150
that for us and talk about? how they apply to

00:48:40.150 --> 00:48:42.849
moving toward spiritual maturity ourselves and

00:48:42.849 --> 00:48:46.510
into these spaces of transformation that propel

00:48:46.510 --> 00:48:49.949
us forward and take us deeper into those rich,

00:48:50.050 --> 00:48:54.889
deep dynamics of faith, even if it's dark. I'm

00:48:54.889 --> 00:48:56.769
glad you asked that because that's a big piece.

00:48:56.949 --> 00:48:59.250
That's a big piece. I want to start with Jesus,

00:48:59.329 --> 00:49:02.530
then I'll get to us. You know, when you go to

00:49:02.530 --> 00:49:06.730
church on Palm Sunday or Good Friday, they read

00:49:06.730 --> 00:49:09.659
what we call the Passion. And the reader goes

00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:11.699
up to this, the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ

00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:14.179
according to Mark, or the passion of our Lord

00:49:14.179 --> 00:49:16.639
Jesus Christ according to John, and we misunderstand

00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:20.440
that. Because we think, well, I mean, not misunderstand,

00:49:20.500 --> 00:49:23.519
we don't get the central point, that this is

00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:25.539
about, you know, Jesus being whipped and chained

00:49:25.539 --> 00:49:28.900
and nailed to the cross and so on, partly. But

00:49:28.900 --> 00:49:32.619
if the reader went up to the passivity of Jesus

00:49:32.619 --> 00:49:35.900
Christ according to Luke, we get it. You know,

00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:39.559
passion comes from the word. Passio. Passiveness.

00:49:40.019 --> 00:49:42.820
Now, I'm not just making this up. You know, you

00:49:42.820 --> 00:49:46.320
can read all four Gospels. It's less than John,

00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:49.159
because John has Jesus as divine. But in Matthew,

00:49:49.219 --> 00:49:52.159
Mark, and Luke, notice that you can divide all

00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:55.719
three Gospels perfectly into two parts, up until

00:49:55.719 --> 00:50:01.000
Jesus is arrested. And the hand cuff, he's active.

00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:04.280
He's the active one. He's doing, he's healing,

00:50:04.380 --> 00:50:06.280
he's teaching, he's preaching, he's, you know,

00:50:06.300 --> 00:50:09.940
he is. The verbs are active. After he's arrested,

00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:13.099
he doesn't do anything anymore at all. And the

00:50:13.099 --> 00:50:15.900
verbs are passive. They arrest him. They lead

00:50:15.900 --> 00:50:18.639
him away. They handcuff him. Simon of Cyrene

00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:20.780
carries his cross. They nail him to the cross.

00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:26.719
He dies. Now, this is the paradoxical part. We

00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:31.199
say we're saved more by that time than all the

00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:33.860
stuff he did. He said, we're preeminently saved

00:50:33.860 --> 00:50:36.760
through Christ's death. not just through his

00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:39.300
life, you know, but actually we're also saved

00:50:39.300 --> 00:50:41.960
through his life. And that works for the book.

00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.960
See, Jesus gave his life for us through his activity,

00:50:45.099 --> 00:50:47.659
right? Not you're giving your life for your family

00:50:47.659 --> 00:50:49.619
or the church and stuff through your activity,

00:50:49.780 --> 00:50:53.480
but Jesus gave his death to us through his passivity,

00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:57.960
you know, to what's being done to him. And, you

00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:01.239
know, it's interesting. We only get, first of

00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:07.960
all, there's powerful. Passivity, we don't get

00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:10.159
this because it's paradoxical, but we experience

00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:12.679
it. So I'll give you an example, and I'll use

00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:15.559
some of the books. So a woman I know grew up

00:51:15.559 --> 00:51:18.840
in an alcoholic family. She says, and my father's

00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:21.739
alcoholism completely destroyed our family. By

00:51:21.739 --> 00:51:26.320
the time he died, he said, the kids couldn't

00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:28.360
be in the same room with each other, you know.

00:51:28.420 --> 00:51:31.099
She says, then for years, my mother tried to

00:51:31.099 --> 00:51:33.599
bring us together. for Thanksgiving, for Christmas,

00:51:33.699 --> 00:51:36.900
and she couldn't pull it off. Then my mother

00:51:36.900 --> 00:51:39.619
died of cancer. She said in the last week of

00:51:39.619 --> 00:51:42.579
her life, she was in palliative care, she was

00:51:42.579 --> 00:51:45.079
in a coma, and we were around her. You know something?

00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:49.380
The family reconciled. Notice what she couldn't

00:51:49.380 --> 00:51:51.760
do with all her activity, she did when she couldn't

00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:56.679
do anything. With Jesus, Jesus preached up a

00:51:56.679 --> 00:51:59.099
storm and healed and taught and stuff for three

00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:02.760
and a half years. They didn't get it. He died

00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:08.300
and they got it. You know, now see, that's a

00:52:08.300 --> 00:52:10.900
great mystery with many, many ramifications.

00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:13.420
Among other things, that's why I get nervous

00:52:13.420 --> 00:52:17.199
when societies talk about euthanasia. You know,

00:52:17.219 --> 00:52:19.739
like, you know, if we do euthanasia, we don't

00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:21.860
understand this. You know, like, so what have

00:52:21.860 --> 00:52:25.320
you got to give? But also in our debilitation,

00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.719
you get old, you're in a senior's home, so on.

00:52:28.579 --> 00:52:30.960
Well, maybe you have more to give then than all

00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:33.630
your... You're giving in a different way, but

00:52:33.630 --> 00:52:35.750
also in smaller ways. I'm going to apply it to

00:52:35.750 --> 00:52:39.190
the 37 -year -olds and so on. You're doing a

00:52:39.190 --> 00:52:42.809
lot of activity, and that's wonderful, but sometimes

00:52:42.809 --> 00:52:46.449
you're forced into passivity. So I'll give you

00:52:46.449 --> 00:52:50.590
an example. You go to a funeral of friends whose

00:52:50.590 --> 00:52:53.050
son died by suicide or something. What are you

00:52:53.050 --> 00:52:55.349
going to say that makes any difference? Nothing.

00:52:55.449 --> 00:52:57.670
You are just helpless. And you know something?

00:52:57.849 --> 00:53:00.610
That helplessness speaks deeper than any words

00:53:00.610 --> 00:53:05.380
you can speak. Or sometimes you're lying sick

00:53:05.380 --> 00:53:08.059
in bed. At that moment, you're not doing activity.

00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.800
In some other way, you may be giving more to

00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:14.500
your kids and so on. You're giving something

00:53:14.500 --> 00:53:19.639
special. So that's a gift. It's paradoxical,

00:53:19.639 --> 00:53:24.119
but it's so central. And the next time you hear

00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:27.760
the word, the passion of Christ, that's what

00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.800
it means. Jesus saved us through his activity.

00:53:31.369 --> 00:53:34.829
He saved us through His passivity. You're giving

00:53:34.829 --> 00:53:36.929
your life to your kids and the world and the

00:53:36.929 --> 00:53:39.269
church and so on through your activity. You're

00:53:39.269 --> 00:53:41.889
also going to, already in small ways, whenever

00:53:41.889 --> 00:53:44.809
you feel helpless, you know, and I think you

00:53:44.809 --> 00:53:46.750
experienced that example of, you know, just when

00:53:46.750 --> 00:53:49.929
you're actually helpless to say anything, you

00:53:49.929 --> 00:53:51.530
know, well, you don't say, I'm not going to go

00:53:51.530 --> 00:53:53.230
to the funeral. I have nothing to say. No, you

00:53:53.230 --> 00:53:56.650
go, and your helplessness speaks deeper than

00:53:56.650 --> 00:54:00.599
your words. See, Jesus' passivity spoke deeper

00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:03.699
than his activity. You know, see, that's a big

00:54:03.699 --> 00:54:06.599
point. And our culture doesn't get it. I mean,

00:54:06.619 --> 00:54:09.460
we experience it, but we don't get it, you know.

00:54:10.460 --> 00:54:16.039
Yeah, what would you, we've all felt it. When

00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:22.559
that deep sense of helplessness kind of accompanies,

00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:29.530
intrudes, invades our lives. What kind of advice

00:54:29.530 --> 00:54:35.269
would you give to someone navigating that? As

00:54:35.269 --> 00:54:40.570
a Christian, as someone who's trying to move

00:54:40.570 --> 00:54:44.469
towards spiritual maturity, what do you do in

00:54:44.469 --> 00:54:48.289
those moments of helplessness? How do you respond?

00:54:50.429 --> 00:54:55.469
You're Mary under the cross. Yeah. First of all,

00:54:55.489 --> 00:54:57.679
you show up. A lot of times people say, well,

00:54:57.719 --> 00:54:59.659
I don't want to go with this uncomfortable. There's

00:54:59.659 --> 00:55:02.480
nothing I can do. Or somebody's dying in a hospital

00:55:02.480 --> 00:55:06.340
bed or something. I say, well, what do I want

00:55:06.340 --> 00:55:09.000
to say? You don't have to say anything. You just

00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:11.800
say, like, I wish I could help. I'm sorry. I

00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:14.500
wish I could help. And so on. And oftentimes

00:55:14.500 --> 00:55:16.920
when we try to say something, it's counterproductive.

00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:20.099
I went to a funeral here at our school. A young

00:55:20.099 --> 00:55:22.739
woman died of cancer and afterwards at the reception.

00:55:23.309 --> 00:55:25.090
This guy's actually trying to be really nice

00:55:25.090 --> 00:55:26.750
to her husband. He said, well, she's in a better

00:55:26.750 --> 00:55:28.889
place. And he says, I know what you mean. I said,

00:55:28.989 --> 00:55:31.090
it's the last thing I need to hear. I don't want

00:55:31.090 --> 00:55:33.349
to hear this. Five years from now, he can hear

00:55:33.349 --> 00:55:38.210
that. Basically, I wish I could say something.

00:55:39.389 --> 00:55:42.409
And your helplessness, I mean, that's the mystery

00:55:42.409 --> 00:55:46.010
of it. It communicates. Like the example, this

00:55:46.010 --> 00:55:48.949
woman dying, and she's in a coma, and her kids

00:55:48.949 --> 00:55:54.059
reconcile over her helpless body. For years,

00:55:54.219 --> 00:55:56.960
she tried everything to try to reconcile it.

00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:03.400
See, we can't articulate the phenomenology of

00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:08.039
this, but we experience it, you know, that basically

00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:14.539
we give away in our passiveness something that's

00:56:14.539 --> 00:56:16.599
also very important, not just in our activity.

00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.699
In chapter four of his book, Insane for the Light,

00:56:25.960 --> 00:56:29.840
Father Ronald Rollheiser writes, quote, As Christians,

00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:33.659
we believe we are saved by Jesus's life, by his

00:56:33.659 --> 00:56:36.920
activity, by what he actively taught us and did

00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:41.300
for us. But, and this is the paradox, we believe

00:56:41.300 --> 00:56:44.539
that we are also saved, indeed preeminently so,

00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:49.820
by his death, by his passivity, by what he passively

00:56:49.820 --> 00:56:53.539
endured. His passivity was in fact more generative

00:56:53.539 --> 00:56:57.280
than his activity. I'll read that last part again.

00:56:57.380 --> 00:57:01.179
His passivity was in fact more generative than

00:57:01.179 --> 00:57:05.079
his activity. A little later, Father Ron continues,

00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:08.940
in our passivity, we can give to others a gift

00:57:08.940 --> 00:57:14.980
that we are unable to give in our activity. I,

00:57:14.980 --> 00:57:20.690
gosh, I find this to be really challenging. but

00:57:20.690 --> 00:57:26.130
also encouraging. There is so much in our lives

00:57:26.130 --> 00:57:29.610
that we spend our energies attempting to control.

00:57:29.829 --> 00:57:33.170
Not always a bad thing, by the way, but it's

00:57:33.170 --> 00:57:36.230
the situations when we are helpless, invited

00:57:36.230 --> 00:57:41.010
into passivity, that often feel most disorienting

00:57:41.010 --> 00:57:44.750
and excruciating. Sometimes, as Father Ron mentioned,

00:57:45.030 --> 00:57:48.429
we are being invited to, quote, drink the cup.

00:57:49.639 --> 00:57:53.539
Nothing easy about this. It's brutal even. But

00:57:53.539 --> 00:57:56.719
in this, I think that we can be comforted that

00:57:56.719 --> 00:58:00.940
we share in the sufferings of Christ and in a

00:58:00.940 --> 00:58:04.480
very real way, take part in the mystery of his

00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:07.860
passion. I'll conclude with this verse from 1

00:58:07.860 --> 00:58:12.139
Peter 4 .13, which says, but rejoice in so far

00:58:12.139 --> 00:58:14.980
as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may

00:58:14.980 --> 00:58:19.260
also rejoice and be glad when his glory. is revealed

00:58:19.260 --> 00:58:30.699
now back to the conversation you know yeah and

00:58:30.699 --> 00:58:36.139
i love that notion of passivity because it it

00:58:36.139 --> 00:58:39.980
kind of gets beyond words yeah it is you know

00:58:39.980 --> 00:58:44.900
like there's something very the mystical dimensions

00:58:44.900 --> 00:58:48.250
of that are quite profound like you're going

00:58:48.250 --> 00:58:55.210
beyond words and just daring to be present in

00:58:55.210 --> 00:58:59.929
the wordlessness of it all yeah yeah and you

00:58:59.929 --> 00:59:02.969
can't connect the dots logically like you can

00:59:02.969 --> 00:59:04.809
with activity you can connect here you can't

00:59:04.809 --> 00:59:08.070
ponder your way there yeah but but here you but

00:59:08.070 --> 00:59:12.570
you just we sense it we sense it and um um and

00:59:12.570 --> 00:59:15.860
see then again why it's in the book, as we get

00:59:15.860 --> 00:59:17.800
older and we move towards death. And so that

00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:19.619
means by giving your death the way you have to

00:59:19.619 --> 00:59:22.280
do it in such a way that your death becomes this

00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:25.539
gift. See, Jesus, his life was a great gift for

00:59:25.539 --> 00:59:28.619
us. His death was even a greater gift. You know,

00:59:28.659 --> 00:59:31.300
we're just as great a gift. I shouldn't, you

00:59:31.300 --> 00:59:33.239
know, put one over the other. But, you know,

00:59:33.239 --> 00:59:35.199
so that whenever you hear the expression, Jesus

00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:37.480
lived for us and died for us, Jesus gave his

00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:39.599
life for us, his death for us, those are two

00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:43.449
separate movements. You know, I don't know how

00:59:43.449 --> 00:59:45.349
true it is. I'd have to check it out. But some

00:59:45.349 --> 00:59:48.989
scholar told me, he said, in the Gospel of Mark,

00:59:49.230 --> 00:59:53.769
in the Greek text, he said, all the verbs about

00:59:53.769 --> 00:59:56.929
Jesus before he's arrested are active. He taught,

00:59:57.110 --> 00:59:59.829
he walked, he did, you know, and then all the

00:59:59.829 --> 01:00:02.829
verbs after are passive. They arrested him, they

01:00:02.829 --> 01:00:05.289
let him away. You know, he's not doing anything

01:00:05.289 --> 01:00:10.030
anymore. He's absorbing. And yet that was his

01:00:10.030 --> 01:00:15.099
great act of love. Yeah. Yeah. One thing we've

01:00:15.099 --> 01:00:18.619
come back to quite a bit in our golf program,

01:00:18.739 --> 01:00:21.260
I brought this up earlier, is this notion, this

01:00:21.260 --> 01:00:24.519
philosophical notion of karma yoga in the Bhagavad

01:00:24.519 --> 01:00:27.739
Gita, at least in the translation I have, it's

01:00:27.739 --> 01:00:34.159
the idea of you go all in. You bring the very

01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:37.820
fullness of your heart, your mind, your physicality,

01:00:37.820 --> 01:00:42.769
you go all in and you're... wholehearted it's

01:00:42.769 --> 01:00:46.769
all there and then you let it go so the all -in

01:00:46.769 --> 01:00:50.889
is the activity and then after that you let go

01:00:50.889 --> 01:00:56.909
of any attachment to result um and in that passivity

01:00:56.909 --> 01:01:02.190
is so damn difficult like it's even more difficult

01:01:02.190 --> 01:01:05.769
because of the activity it's even more difficult

01:01:05.769 --> 01:01:09.289
because you dare to go all in So then you want

01:01:09.289 --> 01:01:12.030
to cling more. You know, you want to grasp, like

01:01:12.030 --> 01:01:15.150
we talked about earlier with Henry Nowen. It's

01:01:15.150 --> 01:01:19.449
even more difficult to be open after you've been

01:01:19.449 --> 01:01:23.429
so active. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. And sometimes

01:01:23.429 --> 01:01:26.929
the more effective you've been, the harder that

01:01:26.929 --> 01:01:32.650
transition can be. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I play

01:01:32.650 --> 01:01:34.809
with words. So the difference when somebody gets

01:01:34.809 --> 01:01:37.570
to a point and says, no, I'm useless. Instead

01:01:37.570 --> 01:01:43.050
of saying, no, I'm passive. You're useless in

01:01:43.050 --> 01:01:47.250
terms of pragmatic activity. You can't supply

01:01:47.250 --> 01:01:50.250
the answers anymore and so on. But you're passive.

01:01:50.769 --> 01:01:55.809
You're giving off something else. And this has

01:01:55.809 --> 01:02:00.650
many forms. I'll give you an example. It's an

01:02:00.650 --> 01:02:04.250
intangible, but I went to a funeral here some

01:02:04.250 --> 01:02:08.480
months ago. in their high profile on lawyers

01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:11.280
in the family and so on. And their mother died,

01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:14.639
but she had been in dementia for a number of

01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:17.360
years, a serious dementia. And what the family

01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:19.219
did, because they're a big extended family and

01:02:19.219 --> 01:02:22.579
they loved their mother, their dad had died.

01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:25.820
They didn't put her in an institution. And they

01:02:25.820 --> 01:02:28.940
just took turns living with her, you know, until

01:02:28.940 --> 01:02:32.400
she died. You had a rotation and you did your

01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:36.570
day or two. But when she died, her... Her son

01:02:36.570 --> 01:02:39.690
was a lawyer. He gave a very fine eulogy. He

01:02:39.690 --> 01:02:42.030
said, you know, that wasn't a burden. He said,

01:02:42.110 --> 01:02:44.909
that was a privilege. He said, you know, he said,

01:02:45.030 --> 01:02:49.510
when we were, so we did that for two years. He

01:02:49.510 --> 01:02:51.449
said, you know, for the first two years of our

01:02:51.449 --> 01:02:54.070
life, she washed our bodies. She changed our

01:02:54.070 --> 01:02:57.769
diapers. She said, we had the opportunity to

01:02:57.769 --> 01:03:00.289
do that for her for the last two years of her

01:03:00.289 --> 01:03:03.829
life. He says, what a wonderful privilege. And,

01:03:03.849 --> 01:03:11.099
you know. She said, you say she didn't have anything

01:03:11.099 --> 01:03:14.500
more to give. She was giving off something. But

01:03:14.500 --> 01:03:19.119
I just liked his analogy. Even the years worked.

01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:21.719
For two years, she washed her body. She changed

01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:25.119
her diaper. And then we got two years where we

01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:27.300
could do it back to her, where she was the baby.

01:03:30.829 --> 01:03:32.530
I mean, stuff like that brings tears to my eyes.

01:03:32.590 --> 01:03:35.010
That's real wisdom. That's understanding, you

01:03:35.010 --> 01:03:37.230
know, rather than we got this burden and for

01:03:37.230 --> 01:03:40.190
two years and it died and so on, you know. So

01:03:40.190 --> 01:03:43.650
she kept giving till the day she died, you know,

01:03:43.650 --> 01:03:47.170
giving in that helpless state, in her passivity.

01:03:47.610 --> 01:03:51.690
So she noticed she wasn't useless. Exactly. It

01:03:51.690 --> 01:03:54.030
was a gift. It was such a gift to those that

01:03:54.030 --> 01:03:58.019
she loved. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Father Ron, this

01:03:58.019 --> 01:04:01.380
has been an amazing conversation. What did we

01:04:01.380 --> 01:04:03.039
leave out? Is there anything else you'd like

01:04:03.039 --> 01:04:11.420
to hit on? You know, maybe the ending of the

01:04:11.420 --> 01:04:18.139
book, in which I give a little creed that I wrote,

01:04:18.179 --> 01:04:22.719
you know, I'm a cancer survivor, and it started

01:04:22.719 --> 01:04:27.460
in 2011, so I'm 14 years into this. And in 2014,

01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:31.340
when he came back the first time, I have a very

01:04:31.340 --> 01:04:33.000
good oncologist, but he leveled with me. He says,

01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:35.539
Father, you're done. You're done. He said, Tim,

01:04:35.539 --> 01:04:38.840
you've got two years to 30 months maximum to

01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:41.559
live, you know. And then somebody took me to

01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:43.980
another, a second opinion, who gave me less time.

01:04:46.380 --> 01:04:48.980
So I sat down, I wrote this creed. I said like,

01:04:49.059 --> 01:04:52.539
now it's 11 years after the fact I'm still alive,

01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:54.679
but I just came back from some cancer checkups.

01:04:54.699 --> 01:04:57.539
I don't know my future and so on. So I have this

01:04:57.539 --> 01:05:00.239
creed, you know, just basically the fact that

01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:05.860
now I'm facing a future that's very indefinite.

01:05:05.860 --> 01:05:09.760
My life, the last 14 years has dealt out to me

01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:12.239
in six months increments, you know, like you're

01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:13.739
good for six months, but we don't know after

01:05:13.739 --> 01:05:18.510
that, you know. And so I wrote this creed, which

01:05:18.510 --> 01:05:21.630
I shared in terms of like, so how do I want to

01:05:21.630 --> 01:05:25.010
live now? How do I want to live while I'm dying?

01:05:26.090 --> 01:05:30.710
But that's true for all of us, you know. You

01:05:30.710 --> 01:05:32.250
know, I actually got the expression live while

01:05:32.250 --> 01:05:34.829
I'm dying from a woman at Yale when I was in

01:05:34.829 --> 01:05:37.230
sabbatical there, and she was dying of cancer,

01:05:37.309 --> 01:05:43.139
very bright, but good spirit. She says, I'm living

01:05:43.139 --> 01:05:45.960
while I'm dying. I'm not dying, you know. But

01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:50.320
aren't we all, you know, from the time we're

01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:57.920
born, we're mortal. And so, and I hope I can

01:05:57.920 --> 01:06:00.119
keep living until I die. And one of the things

01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:01.980
I want to keep everything intact, including my

01:06:01.980 --> 01:06:08.559
sense of humor. Basically, I want to go out without

01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:10.519
bitterness, without anger, without anything.

01:06:11.070 --> 01:06:13.050
You know, maybe I'll close with this. You know,

01:06:13.090 --> 01:06:15.610
there's a book I highly recommend. It's a secular

01:06:15.610 --> 01:06:20.010
book by a man called Ira Bayock. And it's called

01:06:20.010 --> 01:06:23.010
The Four Things That Matter Most. The Four Things

01:06:23.010 --> 01:06:26.070
That Matter Most. And he's a medical doctor,

01:06:26.150 --> 01:06:30.389
but he works in hospice with people dying. And

01:06:30.389 --> 01:06:32.309
he says, and you don't even have to read the

01:06:32.309 --> 01:06:35.949
book. He gives it in the first page. He says,

01:06:35.989 --> 01:06:38.389
The Four Things That Matter Most. I make sure

01:06:38.389 --> 01:06:40.949
that the person dying says this to his family

01:06:40.949 --> 01:06:43.210
and the family says it to the person. He said

01:06:43.210 --> 01:06:46.690
four things. He says, forgive me. I forgive you.

01:06:46.969 --> 01:06:52.889
I love you. Thank you. That's for all of us.

01:06:53.090 --> 01:06:56.230
You got to exit this pun as saying, forgive me.

01:06:56.289 --> 01:07:00.349
I forgive you. I love you. Thank you. See, then

01:07:00.349 --> 01:07:04.849
you can get on the ship, on the plane, and all

01:07:04.849 --> 01:07:09.420
the bows are tied. Yeah. Yeah. Not to put you

01:07:09.420 --> 01:07:12.820
on the spot, Father Ron, but would you mind concluding

01:07:12.820 --> 01:07:15.920
this conversation by reading the creed that you

01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:18.019
mentioned? I honestly don't have it in front

01:07:18.019 --> 01:07:21.340
of me. I'm sorry. I should have brought it. I'll

01:07:21.340 --> 01:07:23.900
tell you what, when you do, you read it to the

01:07:23.900 --> 01:07:27.199
audience. Yeah. Well, I've got it right here.

01:07:27.340 --> 01:07:31.019
I can, if you're okay with me reading your beautiful

01:07:31.019 --> 01:07:32.539
words. And you have a better voice than I have

01:07:32.539 --> 01:07:34.900
anyway, so okay. I don't know about that, but.

01:07:35.670 --> 01:07:45.269
Okay, let me, here it is. So you write, I am

01:07:45.269 --> 01:07:48.210
going to strive to be as healthy as long as I

01:07:48.210 --> 01:07:51.309
can. I'm going to strive to be as productive

01:07:51.309 --> 01:07:54.969
as long as I can. I'm going to make every day

01:07:54.969 --> 01:07:57.650
and every activity as precious and enjoyable

01:07:57.650 --> 01:08:01.710
as possible. I'm going to strive to be as gracious,

01:08:01.769 --> 01:08:05.320
warm, and charitable as possible. I'm going to

01:08:05.320 --> 01:08:07.960
strive to accept others' love in a deeper way

01:08:07.960 --> 01:08:11.380
than I have up to now. I'm going to strive to

01:08:11.380 --> 01:08:15.699
live a more fully reconciled life. No room for

01:08:15.699 --> 01:08:19.100
past hurts anymore. I'm going to strive to keep

01:08:19.100 --> 01:08:22.420
my sense of humor intact. I'm going to strive

01:08:22.420 --> 01:08:26.600
to be as courageous as I can. I am going to strive

01:08:26.600 --> 01:08:29.899
never to look on what I am losing, but rather

01:08:29.899 --> 01:08:33.840
to look always at how wonderful and full my life

01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:38.920
has been and is. And I'm going to daily lay all

01:08:38.920 --> 01:08:43.239
this at God's feet through prayer. It's beautiful.

01:08:44.020 --> 01:08:47.520
Any final thoughts on that? No, just thank you

01:08:47.520 --> 01:08:52.270
for this interview, Stephen, and thank you. Beautiful

01:08:52.270 --> 01:08:54.510
book. Thank you for sharing your time with us

01:08:54.510 --> 01:08:57.489
and your wisdom. You've had a big impact on my

01:08:57.489 --> 01:08:59.810
life and our listeners as well. So thank you,

01:08:59.829 --> 01:09:02.569
Father Ron. And remember, you're a wisdom figure.

01:09:02.710 --> 01:09:06.869
You're a Magus. Thank you. It's very kind. Have

01:09:06.869 --> 01:09:15.750
a great afternoon. Okay, thanks. Once again,

01:09:15.810 --> 01:09:18.619
that was Father Ronald Rollheiser. His new book

01:09:18.619 --> 01:09:21.579
insane for the light of spirituality for our

01:09:21.579 --> 01:09:24.539
wisdom years is available on penguin random houses

01:09:24.539 --> 01:09:28.600
website or wherever books are sold. You can follow

01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:32.279
him on Facebook at facebook .com slash Ron Rollheiser,

01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:35.800
or you can read his weekly column in exile at

01:09:35.800 --> 01:09:40.010
Ron Rollheiser .com. We also publish one of his

01:09:40.010 --> 01:09:42.869
columns each month on our own site, franciscanmedia

01:09:42.869 --> 01:09:46.109
.org. Simply scroll down to columns and click

01:09:46.109 --> 01:09:50.010
on In Exile. Don't forget to check out the show

01:09:50.010 --> 01:09:53.329
notes for this episode. A huge, huge thanks to

01:09:53.329 --> 01:09:56.369
Father Ron for coming on off the page, and thank

01:09:56.369 --> 01:09:59.750
you for tuning in, and as always, for your support.

01:10:00.289 --> 01:10:02.250
Peace and all good.