WEBVTT

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Welcome to Off the Page. It's great to be with

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you. St. Francis of Assisi famously prayed, Who

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are you, my God, and who am I? Today's guest,

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Brother Greg Cellini, found himself praying a

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similar prayer after almost three decades of

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working and climbing within the pharmaceutical

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industry. It was then that he made the pivot

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of all pivots and began the process of entering

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religious life. His journey is one that invites

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each of us to contemplate the source of our dreams

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and desires. And this wild story, I think it

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invites each of us to consider who and whose

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we are and why we do what we do. To me, this

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is the perfect conversation to share in early

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October, just after the feast day of St. Francis.

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And I've provided reflection segments throughout

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this episode to really sit with the wisdom that

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Brother Greg shares in this conversation. A few

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things about Brother Greg before we get going.

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He is a Franciscan brother of Brooklyn, and his

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primary ministry is at St. Francis College in

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Brooklyn, New York, where he has served as director

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of the Office of Mission, Ministry, and Interfaith

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Dialogue, as well as an adjunct professor. He

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is host of Thank God for Monday, a weekly radio

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show about the workplace. And he is a graduate

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of St. Bonaventure University's Advanced Certificate

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in Franciscan Studies. He also earned degrees

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at Rutgers Graduate School of Management and

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Seton Hall University, their Stillman School

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of Business. He's the author of Transform Yourself,

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Transform the World, A Franciscan View of Career.

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So without further ado, here is Brother Greg

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Cellini. Enjoy. Brother Greg Cellini, thanks

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for joining me. The honor is all mine, Stephen.

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To begin, take us back to the 1990s. What was

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going on in your life at that time? Wow, it was

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really an exciting time, a confusing time. I

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had been in the company Hoffman LaRoche Big Pharmaceuticals

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for just about 13 years as of 1990. And I was

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doing work in the finance department. I had earned

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my CPA working for Roche. And they treated me

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so well for my entire career there, my entire

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29 years. I really want to make sure that I communicate

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that. But in the early 90s there, I was in an

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accounting position dealing with strategic alliances,

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licensing programs, research collaborations,

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co -promotion. But what had happened over those

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years, those 13 years, is I came to identify

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myself with how I was doing at work. If things

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were going great, then I felt really good. If

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they weren't going so well, then I wasn't feeling

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good about myself. And it came to a point where

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I did one of the three greatest things I ever

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did. And they really propelled or this propelled

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the two other greater things. And that's when

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I went for 15 months of therapy. It was really,

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really important to me because it helped cleanse

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me. It helped me to clear some of the clutter

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and some of the confusion and try to get me on

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a road, really a road that God wanted me to be

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on, certainly. During that course of time, I

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was in my MBA studies. I got my undergraduate

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degree from Seton Hall, class of 85, and then

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Rutgers, 1994. So there was an awful lot of things

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going on. physically, mentally, emotionally,

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spiritually during those early 90s. No question

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about that. What was your spiritual background?

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Did you grow up Catholic? I did. I was blessed

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to have two wonderful parents who are with God

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now. My four older siblings, I'm the last of

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five, are still with me. And it was a beautiful

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Catholic family. My parents really said they

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never went to college, either one of them. They

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sacrificed, but all five of us, through Catholic

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education. I went to St. Paul Grammar School

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and then Paul VI High School. And then, ironically,

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my senior year, I was working for Roche as a

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work -study student, going to school, high school

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in the morning, working in the afternoon. And

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right at the end of my tenure there, senior year,

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when I was graduating in June of 77, it became

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apparent I really had this dream of going to

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Seton Hall. But it was just out of my price range.

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Lo and behold, a job came open at Roche just

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required a high school degree. And they said,

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if you come to work for us full time, we'll pay

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your education at night. That's what I did. And

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got an amazing education at the Catholic University

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of New Jersey at Seton Hall. Still am very close

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with people at Seton Hall there, doing my own

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radio show there, thank God for Monday, and just

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been a part of my life ever since I first walked

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onto the campus there. But indeed, I had a solid,

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solid Catholic education for the 16 years. I

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was always a weekly churchgoer, and then at some

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times during my career, even going a bit more

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frequently, a couple of times a week, certainly.

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Yeah, you mentioned your sense of identity and

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then 15 months of therapy as well. So, I mean,

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you have this Catholic spiritual background,

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but then you also are sensing that your identity

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is getting really tied up in work and accomplishing

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and the ebbs and flows of your worth being tied

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to your performance, essentially. So when did

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things begin to shift within you or maybe another

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way to start? say it is, when did you begin to

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sense that there was a problem? I would say the

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early 2000s, 2001, 2002. I could really sense

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that God was calling me. I had in 1994 purchased

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my own townhouse, so I was now no longer living

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with my parents, living alone. And I had that

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sense by the early 2000s that God was kind of

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calling me to live differently and to love differently,

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certainly. And at that point, you had been in

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big pharma for about 25, 27 years. Exactly. In

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June of 20, I'm sorry, June of 2002, I celebrated

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my 25th anniversary. And that was a very important

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milestone. That was a dream. to be able to celebrate

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that 25th anniversary. One of the nice perks

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at Roche is that anyone who was there 25 years

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or longer got to go to a dinner every October

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celebrating all these 25 -year anniversaries

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and above. And it was really, that was my dream.

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I don't know why I had that dream because it's

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very interesting. There were people during the

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90s who were asking me, gee, you know, have you

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ever thought of, of leaving. Matter of fact,

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there was one very, very interesting conversation

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I had with a colleague of mine at the time. And

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she said, Greg, you know, if you thought about

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leaving, you don't seem like you're galvanized

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here, that you really want to come to work anymore,

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that your heart is somewhere else. And I remember

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when she said that, I was speechless. My knees

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were shaking so hard I could have cracked a walnut

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if it was between them, certainly, as we like

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to say. But that was never something my late

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father had worked 45 years for Chase Manhattan

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Bank. I was going to do the same in Big Pharma,

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you know, retire. Now, he, of course, had the

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blessing of a wife and five children. I didn't

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have those blessings, certainly. But indeed,

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I had never even thought about leaving, no question

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about it. But then came those early 2000s. I

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could really sense what was going on, that there

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was something going on inside of me. I didn't

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know quite what. What was very interesting, 2004,

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I accompanied some people on a pilgrimage to

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Canada with what we like to call, I guess, differently

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abled pilgrims. And that was really amazing,

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a really amazing experience. That was, as I recall,

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August of 2004. And then August 2005, I wanted

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to go back. But what happened was I had to go

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to Europe on business. And in the beginning,

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I used to love, love, love to go to Europe on

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business. These beautiful places, wonderful hotels,

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your state, et cetera. But my entire time in

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Switzerland during that August 2005 trip, my

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heart was in Canada. My heart was really with

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that other group. So I sense that something is

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really stirring here. Yeah, what was so impactful

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about that Canada trip to you? That is a great

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question. I think just being at these different

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sites, St. Joe's in Montreal, going to Marie

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à la Cape in Quebec, just these places were amazing.

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And just the interaction with the pilgrims, these

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differently abled pilgrims, to see that I can

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indeed make a difference, a positive difference

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in someone's life. So really, That 2005, when

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I was in Switzerland, in this beautiful country

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with my colleagues, my head was there, my heart

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was there, but my, I'm sorry, my head was there

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and my mouth was there. My heart was definitely

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in Canada. And I sensed, oh boy, something's

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really happening here. Yeah, you mentioned something

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very interesting, and we're going to get to your

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transition here very soon, but you said, I don't

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know why I had that dream referencing to being

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25 years in big pharma. Yes. Can you go into

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the nuances of that? I think that will be very

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relatable to people because I mean, at least

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in my own life, I've noticed at times that I

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become very machine -like in, in what I mean

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by that is that you're essentially reacting.

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to what you think you're supposed to do and for

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me at least i really relate to your story for

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me at least usually it goes back to accomplishing

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things you know like um and then a lot of times

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when i even creatively a lot of times when i

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zoom out i'm like I don't know why I had that

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dream. It was never really about publishing the

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book. It was about the creative process along

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the way and the things that I learned about myself

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and the things that God opened up within me along

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the way. And you get to the end, this dream,

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and you're like, there's a mysterious kind of

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emptiness here. the things that I enjoyed the

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most was actually the process and the journey

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that took me there. So anyway, can you go into

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the nuances, complexity of that statement? I

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don't know why I had that dream. Sure. It's very,

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very interesting because when I think about it,

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when I look back, especially into the early nineties

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there, as I was in big pharma longer and longer,

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I got lured by the trappings of the world, the

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money. The cars, the houses, the fame, the positions,

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the titles, all those things. I think this just

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tied into it that, to me, the pinnacle was spending

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25 years to be able to go to this dinner. And

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when looking back, I say to myself, you know,

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what was this all about? And again, it was part

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of the trappings. I had made this, this achievement,

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this accomplishment, the gold watch, you know,

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all of these things. And this was totally my

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fault. As I said, the organization from day one

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to the day I was downsized treated me so gently

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and so wonderfully. But I really got off the

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track there. How much money am I making? What's

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my title? All of these kinds of things. Really,

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these, what I now, as a Franciscan, I like to

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call disordered loves. And clear to the audience,

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unfortunately, even as a Franciscan brother,

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there's disordered loves like food and other

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things that I still struggle with. But indeed,

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so I think that's a part of our whole lodge.

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But I really got off the track during the 90s

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there. And I was very blessed that in the 2000s,

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in those first few years, I was able to get back

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on the course. Yeah. So fast forward, that leads

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perfectly here to, you know, fast forward to

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2006. What happened that year and where did your

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journey go from there? Yeah, it was really amazing.

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Actually, it was May of 2005 to May of 2006,

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that 12 -year period. And I'll never forget the

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date. The date was May 25, 2005. I met with leadership

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from the UK. They came to Nutley, New Jersey,

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where I was at the time. They expressed their

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disappointment. I got a sense that they would

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have liked to have sacked me right on the spot,

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but I had a good record and I had been there

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a long time, so they needed to build a case,

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certainly. But it's very good because that night,

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I went to the seven o 'clock mass at my parish,

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Our Lady of Mount Virgin, and I was the accolade.

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And so while I received communion and then the

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priest was distributing communion to everybody

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else, I literally, Stephen, I literally prostrated

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myself, looked right in that tabernacle and said,

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God, I've screwed this up enough. You take it

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over. That was my moment of surrender. That was

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my Francis kissing the leper moment. That was

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really the moment where I really turned my heart

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to God and said again, you know, I've messed

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this up. You've got to take this over. You've

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got to do it. Now, did I ever think what would

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happen the next 20 years would happen? I was

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clueless. But for the first time in my life,

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I really gave up because it was very interesting.

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I didn't mention before I was five years at Roche

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and a couple of people came to me and said, Greg,

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you don't belong here. You belong either in the

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church or in higher education. Both ironically,

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certainly exactly where I belong. But it's very,

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very interesting that in May of 2025. I'm sorry,

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2005, looking in that tabernacle. And I think

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back what a beautiful, as difficult as that was,

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as low as I was feeling, what a beautiful moment

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of surrender and to say, God, yeah, you just

00:16:02.620 --> 00:16:07.259
do it from here. Yeah, it's a beautiful image.

00:16:07.820 --> 00:16:12.360
And as I listened to you, I mean, I sensed that

00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:17.230
a lot of things were kind of... shifting or maybe

00:16:17.230 --> 00:16:19.950
even crashing down in a sense within you yeah

00:16:19.950 --> 00:16:23.799
i mean for such a long time your identity is

00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:27.539
tied up in what you're accomplishing or not accomplishing.

00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:31.299
And now your superiors come to you and they're

00:16:31.299 --> 00:16:33.259
disappointed and you feel like your job is on

00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:36.580
the line. So all of a sudden that, that identity

00:16:36.580 --> 00:16:41.340
again is like, Oh, who, who am I? Can you go

00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:44.460
a little bit deeper into that moment of that

00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:46.720
night of surrender that you talked about? Like

00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.720
where did, what opened up within you that night?

00:16:50.779 --> 00:16:53.580
And then where did, How did things go from there

00:16:53.580 --> 00:16:56.620
spiritually? It was really a feeling of desperation.

00:16:57.580 --> 00:17:01.159
It was my back against the wall moment. But really,

00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:05.240
it was a feeling of desperation that I had tried

00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:11.000
so hard for my working years to be someone, to

00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.140
make a contribution, to have an impact, to grow,

00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.319
to make more money. And all of this, I think

00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:26.460
you alluded to, was just crashing down. In this

00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:28.880
first reflection, I wanted to take a moment and

00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.019
sit with what brother Greg Cellini introduced

00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:34.779
to us through his story. One major theme thus

00:17:34.779 --> 00:17:39.410
far is the notion of dreams and desires. I have

00:17:39.410 --> 00:17:43.769
realized in my own life that oftentimes my dreams

00:17:43.769 --> 00:17:49.049
and desires need to be evaluated. I have to consider

00:17:49.049 --> 00:17:52.829
where are they coming from? How are they impacted

00:17:52.829 --> 00:17:57.450
by my own cultural ideals or my own ego or even

00:17:57.450 --> 00:18:01.309
my own insecurities? A lot of times, as Brother

00:18:01.309 --> 00:18:04.289
Greg shared, we're not even sure why we have

00:18:04.289 --> 00:18:07.799
certain dreams or desires. He said his dream

00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.559
was to make it to 25 years in pharmaceuticals

00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:13.140
at Roche so he could attend a dinner each year.

00:18:13.579 --> 00:18:18.619
Why? He wasn't really sure. One of my favorite

00:18:18.619 --> 00:18:20.799
authors is the great Hoosier science fiction

00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.079
writer Kurt Vonnegut. A theme he often plays

00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:29.019
with in many of his novels is the notion that

00:18:29.019 --> 00:18:31.759
human beings are becoming more machine -like

00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:34.720
in their dependence on technology and corporations,

00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.539
merely reacting to their own cultural programming.

00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:42.440
But this is where the spiritual life and contemplation

00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:45.619
comes in, and it's even essential, I'd argue.

00:18:46.059 --> 00:18:49.720
Vonnegut, he was no Christian, but he once wrote,

00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.599
Our awareness is all that is alive and may be

00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:57.279
sacred to any of us. Everything else about us

00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:02.980
is dead machinery. Brother Greg's story invites

00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:05.859
us to adopt the awareness Vonnegut is writing

00:19:05.859 --> 00:19:09.099
about. His story invites us to consider where

00:19:09.099 --> 00:19:12.299
our dreams and desires are coming from and to

00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:17.059
really get curious about their source. And my

00:19:17.059 --> 00:19:20.420
hope is that Brother Greg's story might move

00:19:20.420 --> 00:19:24.140
us to take on St. Francis' words and boldly pray

00:19:24.140 --> 00:19:28.220
his prayer. Who are you, my God, and who am I?

00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.339
As Brother Greg writes in his book, quote, it

00:19:32.339 --> 00:19:34.579
can be difficult to have the courage to take

00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:38.480
the time for reflection. However, by doing so,

00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:42.599
one can gain clarity of purpose. recognize stumbling

00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.819
blocks in advance, prepare for setbacks as well

00:19:45.819 --> 00:19:48.940
as opportunities, and move forward in alignment

00:19:48.940 --> 00:19:55.660
with our values and goals, end quote. Now, back

00:19:55.660 --> 00:20:04.099
to the episode. And it was just a total feeling

00:20:04.099 --> 00:20:07.480
of desperation. Now, the company was very kind

00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:10.670
to me, as I said, for all the whole period. But

00:20:10.670 --> 00:20:14.609
they provided some coaching sessions with Gallup.

00:20:15.809 --> 00:20:18.150
Gallup, of course, we've heard of for polling,

00:20:18.309 --> 00:20:22.369
but I never realized that they had a coaching

00:20:22.369 --> 00:20:26.890
block or division as well. So in preparation,

00:20:26.990 --> 00:20:29.390
I was getting three sessions with my coach who

00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:31.710
was in Omaha, Nebraska. So we were doing it via

00:20:31.710 --> 00:20:35.210
phone. And in preparation, I had to fill out

00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:38.849
the Strength Finders assessment. And is this

00:20:38.849 --> 00:20:41.430
like during 2006? Is this when you're kind of

00:20:41.430 --> 00:20:44.130
transitioning out? I apologize. No, this was

00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:48.029
during that period, May of 2005 to May of 2006.

00:20:48.690 --> 00:20:52.890
So it was probably about August when this started.

00:20:53.349 --> 00:20:57.549
And I fill out the strength finders and I get

00:20:57.549 --> 00:21:00.950
on the phone with Rosemary, my coach from Gallup.

00:21:01.529 --> 00:21:04.829
And she says, Greg, right away. She said, I have

00:21:04.829 --> 00:21:08.140
your results here. Something's very wrong. Something's

00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:15.819
very wrong. You're like, thanks. Someone else

00:21:15.819 --> 00:21:17.900
who thinks I'm inadequate. We haven't even known

00:21:17.900 --> 00:21:21.559
each other for more than five minutes. Are you

00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:26.079
supposed to be my coach? So she said, your profile,

00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.400
your five strengths are much more geared to religious

00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.920
life than corporate life. Do you think you have

00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:40.039
a vocation? And I remember just being speechless.

00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:44.480
And Rosemary told me, because we're still friends

00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:49.460
to this day, she really shared with me that she

00:21:49.460 --> 00:21:52.720
thought she might have messed up her career by

00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:54.720
asking me that, even though she was much later

00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:58.119
in her career, certainly. So it was very interesting.

00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:00.220
I said, I really don't know. I really don't know.

00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.259
And so she gave me a homework assignment, amongst

00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:06.930
other assignments. But she said, I want you to

00:22:06.930 --> 00:22:11.509
go see three religious congregations before we

00:22:11.509 --> 00:22:17.789
get together again and just explore, go explore.

00:22:18.210 --> 00:22:22.690
Well, I did go see three. The third was the Franciscan

00:22:22.690 --> 00:22:25.529
Brothers of Brooklyn. I met with them in October,

00:22:25.769 --> 00:22:30.190
October 29, actually, of 05. And something really

00:22:30.190 --> 00:22:32.769
felt right. I remember calling my mother when

00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:35.509
I got home from that visit. I said, Mom, this

00:22:35.509 --> 00:22:38.789
really feels right. I can't explain it, but it

00:22:38.789 --> 00:22:42.710
just felt very right. What was her reaction?

00:22:43.369 --> 00:22:46.730
Well, it's interesting because my sister, my

00:22:46.730 --> 00:22:51.170
wonderful sister Celeste, was a former temporary

00:22:51.170 --> 00:22:55.250
professed sister of charity. So this was back

00:22:55.250 --> 00:22:58.440
in the early 70s. when religious life was all

00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:01.460
different. There was some trepidation there that

00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:04.299
she had, certainly. I think more than anything,

00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:08.140
she didn't realize how different religious life

00:23:08.140 --> 00:23:12.720
has become today. It tells the story that she

00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:16.920
couldn't even bring a box of candy to her daughter

00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:19.779
when she would visit. Things were much stricter

00:23:19.779 --> 00:23:24.420
back then. But the whole irony about Rosemary

00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:31.339
is that... She was a former novice with the Franciscan

00:23:31.339 --> 00:23:35.940
Sisters out in Indiana. And in retrospect, after

00:23:35.940 --> 00:23:38.079
I became a brother, she shared with me, she said,

00:23:38.180 --> 00:23:40.420
you know, you could have gotten any one of 18

00:23:40.420 --> 00:23:46.839
coaches. Yes. I was picked to coach you. And

00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:50.680
she is certain that the other 17 would not have

00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:56.029
realized this. Yeah. Rosemary spent 26 years

00:23:56.029 --> 00:24:00.750
with Gallup, and she said to me that she believes

00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:03.589
one of the reasons that she was there was to

00:24:03.589 --> 00:24:10.609
foster my vocation. Wow. Yeah. But there's no

00:24:10.609 --> 00:24:13.470
question there was divine, the Holy Spirit, she,

00:24:13.630 --> 00:24:16.509
the Holy Spirit, was all over my vocation. There's

00:24:16.509 --> 00:24:20.329
no question about that. Yeah. Yeah. As you share

00:24:20.329 --> 00:24:24.430
that, what makes you so emotional? I mean, that

00:24:24.430 --> 00:24:28.029
is it's incredible that she ends up with you.

00:24:28.170 --> 00:24:31.549
Yeah, absolutely. The fact that God would put

00:24:31.549 --> 00:24:36.019
Rosemary in my path just at the right time. She's

00:24:36.019 --> 00:24:39.319
a great secular Franciscan at this day. So she's

00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.880
aware of the beautiful Franciscan order. She's

00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.440
familiar with Franciscan community. So there's

00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.500
no doubt that God wanted me at this point to

00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:51.900
become a Franciscan brother of Brooklyn. And

00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:55.240
to this day, people have said, gee, Gray, how

00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:58.299
do you feel 20 years later? And I say, I have

00:24:58.299 --> 00:25:01.099
no doubt. God wants me to be a Franciscan brother

00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:03.740
or brother. That's why I'm so happy. That's why

00:25:03.740 --> 00:25:06.519
I'm so joyful. That's why I'm so content. It

00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.900
feels great every day and every night to be able

00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:15.740
to go to get up and go to bed knowing that I'm

00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:19.720
where God wants me to be. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned

00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:23.559
visiting a couple different religious communities.

00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:28.190
You could have gone a number of different paths

00:25:28.190 --> 00:25:30.890
into religious life. What is it that drew you

00:25:30.890 --> 00:25:35.250
to St. Francis and St. Clair? Well, it's so interesting

00:25:35.250 --> 00:25:39.250
because, and I don't say this lightly, but what's

00:25:39.250 --> 00:25:43.630
very interesting is that I have, and I've discovered

00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:46.009
this later on, I should say since I've become

00:25:46.009 --> 00:25:48.710
a brother, I've discovered so much about me.

00:25:48.750 --> 00:25:52.170
I was clueless as to who I was, and I really

00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:54.890
didn't even know there was an interior life that

00:25:54.890 --> 00:25:58.390
needed to be. that needed to be inspected, if

00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:01.329
you will, or explored. But it was so interesting

00:26:01.329 --> 00:26:04.109
because what I've discovered, and it's okay,

00:26:04.210 --> 00:26:08.710
I have a very low IQ. People say, gee, Greg,

00:26:08.809 --> 00:26:10.470
are you interested in the priesthood? I can never

00:26:10.470 --> 00:26:13.730
study. I can't retain any of that stuff, understand

00:26:13.730 --> 00:26:15.789
it, et cetera, et cetera. But what I have found

00:26:15.789 --> 00:26:19.490
out about myself is that I have a higher than

00:26:19.490 --> 00:26:22.230
normal, and I hate to use these generalizations,

00:26:22.289 --> 00:26:28.119
but for a man, EQ. emotional intelligence. So

00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:31.700
I have higher empathy. I can listen. I love to

00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:33.599
listen more than speak, even though some people

00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.759
don't believe that. That's okay too. But indeed,

00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:41.519
so the higher ego. To me, the Franciscans and

00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:46.299
I have some brothers and many OFMs and TORs.

00:26:46.299 --> 00:26:48.240
They're brilliant. I mean, absolutely brilliant.

00:26:48.339 --> 00:26:51.890
Both sisters and brothers and priests. But to

00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:54.529
me, the difference between the Franciscan and

00:26:54.529 --> 00:26:57.289
the other orders is the other orders use their

00:26:57.289 --> 00:27:02.230
mind or their mouth or both. Franciscans primarily

00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:05.990
go and deal from the heart. And that's what I

00:27:05.990 --> 00:27:08.690
found. That's what I was not doing during my

00:27:08.690 --> 00:27:12.569
30 years in big pharma. I was not living from

00:27:12.569 --> 00:27:15.829
the heart. I was living from the head. I was

00:27:15.829 --> 00:27:17.990
living from the mouth. And again, when you're

00:27:17.990 --> 00:27:20.730
dealing with the head and the mouth. The trappings,

00:27:20.849 --> 00:27:24.089
those disordered loves, those are the things

00:27:24.089 --> 00:27:29.150
that we want to follow. Can you go, sorry, go

00:27:29.150 --> 00:27:30.430
ahead. I was going to say you're in competition

00:27:30.430 --> 00:27:34.390
with the people you work with, not there to collaborate,

00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:38.430
certainly. Yeah, well, that leads very nicely

00:27:38.430 --> 00:27:41.609
into my next question. I mean, you've used that

00:27:41.609 --> 00:27:45.509
phrase disordered love a couple times. It's very

00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:47.970
interesting. Can you go a little bit deeper into

00:27:47.970 --> 00:27:50.170
what you mean by that? Yeah, I don't know where

00:27:50.170 --> 00:27:52.470
I got the phrase. I certainly read it somewhere.

00:27:52.970 --> 00:27:58.589
But things like money, things like titles, things

00:27:58.589 --> 00:28:02.609
like possessions. And there's nothing wrong with

00:28:02.609 --> 00:28:07.470
any of these. But when they become the God, when

00:28:07.470 --> 00:28:10.569
they become more important than Father, Son,

00:28:10.690 --> 00:28:13.950
and Holy Spirit, when they become the motivation

00:28:13.950 --> 00:28:18.609
for what we do and who we are, that's where...

00:28:18.940 --> 00:28:21.819
To me, the line gets drawn. That's where you

00:28:21.819 --> 00:28:24.119
stepped over. I've stepped over the line. So

00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:27.059
we've got to be very, very careful about these

00:28:27.059 --> 00:28:30.920
disordered loves, be it alcohol, be it gambling,

00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:35.059
be it entertainment. Leisure is wonderful. I

00:28:35.059 --> 00:28:39.299
love to play golf. I'm a terrible golfer. But

00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:41.039
there were periods of time in my life where I

00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:43.799
took it very seriously. Am I getting better and

00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:46.599
this and that? And again, it started to consume

00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:49.630
me. and take me away from the Almighty. Golf

00:28:49.630 --> 00:28:53.049
is a very Franciscan game. It's outdoors. It's

00:28:53.049 --> 00:28:56.789
fun. It's fresh air. It's leisure. And all of

00:28:56.789 --> 00:28:59.789
this is very important. So now I keep an improper

00:28:59.789 --> 00:29:02.509
perspective, play a few times a year, mostly

00:29:02.509 --> 00:29:06.049
at various outings, don't care about score, go

00:29:06.049 --> 00:29:09.670
out and have fun. To me, that's a very ordered

00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:13.849
love. Yeah. Well, we'll have to go play golf

00:29:13.849 --> 00:29:16.650
sometime. That'd be a lot of fun. I'm sure you

00:29:16.650 --> 00:29:18.630
can give me some pointers. I understand you're

00:29:18.630 --> 00:29:21.690
a virtuoso coach and player. So that would be.

00:29:21.730 --> 00:29:23.930
I don't know about that. I played at a really

00:29:23.930 --> 00:29:26.650
small school because that was the only school

00:29:26.650 --> 00:29:28.869
that would allow me to be on the team. But yeah,

00:29:29.049 --> 00:29:33.430
I do coach high school golf. And yeah, and it's

00:29:33.430 --> 00:29:36.470
one of my favorite things about coaching goes

00:29:36.470 --> 00:29:40.880
into exactly what you're saying. I mean. In golf

00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.759
and in a lot of things in life and in a lot of

00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:47.279
things in this country in particular, so much

00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:51.359
comes down to performance. And in golf, especially

00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:54.680
in competitive golf, the first thing they say

00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:56.420
to you when you get done is, what'd you shoot?

00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.900
What was your score? So your score, your score

00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:04.220
card, it's really like... staring at, staring

00:30:04.220 --> 00:30:06.799
you down throughout the course of a four, five,

00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:13.480
six hour round. And I love coaching because one

00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.759
of the many reasons I love coaching is it gets

00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.559
into a lot of these conversations that you, a

00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.339
lot of these themes that you and I are hitting

00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:23.539
on in our conversation is that, well, who are

00:30:23.539 --> 00:30:27.099
you? What's your identity? You know, you're probably

00:30:27.099 --> 00:30:29.440
not going to remember this golf round in three

00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.240
months, certainly three years. Sure. But you.

00:30:32.539 --> 00:30:34.579
you may remember the laughter on the bus ride.

00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.559
You may remember the team trip. You may remember

00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:41.880
being outside playing a beautiful course and

00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:44.559
the challenges of that day and the playing partners

00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:51.859
you got to meet. So it's this interesting kind

00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:59.579
of shift to I'm not my performance. This is about

00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:03.599
process and enjoyment and having fun and what

00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.339
I can learn about my own emotions and mentality

00:31:06.339 --> 00:31:09.799
in the process of this incredibly difficult and

00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:12.539
personal game. Yes, absolutely. It's so funny

00:31:12.539 --> 00:31:16.140
because recently, St. Francis College, where

00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:19.440
my ministry is at, we had our annual fundraiser

00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:22.519
for golf. It was a golf outing. And it was just

00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.009
so wonderful. And I said, please. Put me with

00:31:26.009 --> 00:31:28.269
three other people who don't are not concerned

00:31:28.269 --> 00:31:31.029
about winning or whatever. And they did. We had

00:31:31.029 --> 00:31:34.730
a ball and it's motivating us maybe to be paired

00:31:34.730 --> 00:31:38.569
again next year. And yeah, conversation during

00:31:38.569 --> 00:31:41.390
the round. And of course, invariably, everyone

00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:43.930
hits a good shot or two. And that's what brings

00:31:43.930 --> 00:31:47.569
you back as well. But it's just so wonderful.

00:31:47.650 --> 00:31:56.049
Really. In this reflection, I wanted to consider

00:31:56.049 --> 00:31:59.170
Brother Greg Cellini's words about ordered love

00:31:59.170 --> 00:32:03.150
and how something that is good in nature can

00:32:03.150 --> 00:32:05.730
sometimes become derailed by our own approach

00:32:05.730 --> 00:32:10.390
to this inherently good thing. This is a really

00:32:10.390 --> 00:32:14.170
interesting theme to me in my own life as a writer

00:32:14.170 --> 00:32:17.480
and as a creative. One of the cues, one of the

00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:20.420
internal cues to me that I'm no longer in the

00:32:20.420 --> 00:32:23.839
space of ordered love is when my desire slips

00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:29.599
into some kind of desperation. For example, I

00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.240
remember once finishing a memoir and querying

00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:35.440
a number of agents and publishers about the project.

00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:38.880
And in the following days and weeks, I became

00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:42.539
miserable. I slipped into a desperate longing

00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:46.839
for affirmation. I began checking my email nonstop.

00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:49.700
It was as if it was the only thing I was thinking

00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:53.279
about. And with each rejection letter, I began

00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.740
to even second guess aspects of the proposal

00:32:55.740 --> 00:32:58.200
and the book itself. And again, these rejections

00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:00.859
are coming from people who did not know me and

00:33:00.859 --> 00:33:04.799
who I did not know. All that to say, I spiraled

00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.779
into something that can only be described as

00:33:07.779 --> 00:33:13.180
obsession or desperation. Now, I think that part

00:33:13.180 --> 00:33:16.099
of this is human, and we need to give ourselves

00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:19.920
a lot of gentle love and grace as we evaluate

00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:23.779
our desires and our dreams. I mean, in this situation,

00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:26.819
I had worked for a half decade on this project,

00:33:26.859 --> 00:33:29.960
and to put it out there to be judged by people

00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.839
who I didn't know, like I said, that was an incredibly

00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:37.430
vulnerable act. And in vulnerability, there's

00:33:37.430 --> 00:33:42.150
courage. I'm proud of myself for that. But I

00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:44.990
also needed to remember in this process, in this

00:33:44.990 --> 00:33:48.130
vulnerability, I needed to remember who I was

00:33:48.130 --> 00:33:51.529
in the midst of this loss of control and rejection.

00:33:52.529 --> 00:33:55.569
I was the beloved. You know, as Henry Nouwen

00:33:55.569 --> 00:33:58.289
once wrote, quote, I kept running around it in

00:33:58.289 --> 00:34:00.730
large and small circles, looking for someone

00:34:00.730 --> 00:34:04.029
or something to convince me that I was the beloved.

00:34:04.970 --> 00:34:07.390
This is the kind of desperation I'm speaking

00:34:07.390 --> 00:34:11.530
to. God tells us we're the beloved. And yet so

00:34:11.530 --> 00:34:15.289
often in my life, I run around other things in

00:34:15.289 --> 00:34:19.389
large or small circles, looking for them, desperately

00:34:19.389 --> 00:34:22.190
looking for them to convince me that I'm the

00:34:22.190 --> 00:34:26.230
beloved. Because the truth is that no rejection

00:34:26.230 --> 00:34:29.489
or sign of apathy toward a project that came

00:34:29.489 --> 00:34:32.639
from such a deep place in my own heart. could

00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:36.619
change how God felt about me, how my loved ones

00:34:36.619 --> 00:34:40.440
felt about me, or if I was honest, how I felt

00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:44.500
about myself. The joy and fulfillment came in

00:34:44.500 --> 00:34:48.639
the creating, in the daring to create, day after

00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:52.380
day after day. It didn't come in the results

00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:57.300
of what I had created. In this letting go, I'm

00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:00.809
so often reminded of who I am, whose I am. And

00:35:00.809 --> 00:35:06.309
what is mine to do? Detached from results. Now,

00:35:06.309 --> 00:35:16.130
back to the episode. Yeah, yeah, I love what

00:35:16.130 --> 00:35:17.829
you said. Going back to your journey here. I

00:35:17.829 --> 00:35:19.869
mean, I love what you said about disordered love

00:35:19.869 --> 00:35:23.909
and ordered love. And then I'm curious, you know,

00:35:23.949 --> 00:35:27.789
as you begin to you. You shift away from Big

00:35:27.789 --> 00:35:31.949
Pharma. You leave almost 30 years in that industry

00:35:31.949 --> 00:35:34.849
behind. And you start going down the Franciscan

00:35:34.849 --> 00:35:37.889
path toward religious life. When did you take

00:35:37.889 --> 00:35:40.929
your vows and what else opened up within you

00:35:40.929 --> 00:35:44.130
as you went deeper into that journey? Well, it's

00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:48.969
very interesting because May 5, 2006 was my last

00:35:48.969 --> 00:35:52.050
day in Big Pharma. And I'll never forget walking

00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:56.210
out. saying, I will never, ever use the skills

00:35:56.210 --> 00:35:58.889
I've learned here. In particular, I was involved

00:35:58.889 --> 00:36:01.989
with change management. And so I start with the

00:36:01.989 --> 00:36:04.289
brothers, September the 1st, I was very blessed.

00:36:04.550 --> 00:36:08.369
I got to go on a retreat in July of 06 to Assisi

00:36:08.369 --> 00:36:12.710
and Roma, which was wonderful. But then I started

00:36:12.710 --> 00:36:16.010
September of 06, my candidacy, or some people

00:36:16.010 --> 00:36:20.050
call postulancy, spent two years. And then the

00:36:20.050 --> 00:36:24.750
year of novitiate. started in August of 08. And

00:36:24.750 --> 00:36:28.329
what was very fascinating was that it was a year.

00:36:28.489 --> 00:36:32.130
It was the most important 12 months of my life.

00:36:32.510 --> 00:36:36.329
It wasn't the funnest. It wasn't the greatest.

00:36:36.550 --> 00:36:39.829
But I say to this day, and it will always be

00:36:39.829 --> 00:36:43.090
the most important, because I was blessed to

00:36:43.090 --> 00:36:48.210
have a novice director, 24 -7, 365, one -on -one.

00:36:49.099 --> 00:36:52.599
And it was like having a life coach for a whole

00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:56.579
year. And someone said to me, gee, Greg, you

00:36:56.579 --> 00:36:58.739
would have paid close to half a million dollars

00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:01.400
to have a life coach observe you for that period

00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:04.380
of time. It was very interesting. He was able,

00:37:04.539 --> 00:37:08.019
in his beautiful Franciscan way, to see inside

00:37:08.019 --> 00:37:12.420
of me and see a lot of the clutter and the hatred

00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:16.659
and these other negative emotions that had built

00:37:16.659 --> 00:37:20.460
up. that were really inside this interior life,

00:37:20.539 --> 00:37:22.500
again, that I was not aware of until becoming

00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:25.880
a brother. And he put me through things like

00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:30.739
the Enneagram, Myers -Briggs. So I really started

00:37:30.739 --> 00:37:33.280
to get to know myself. It was really an exercise

00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:37.420
in self -analysis, self -awareness. And so I

00:37:37.420 --> 00:37:39.739
was very, very blessed. That was an amazing year.

00:37:40.460 --> 00:37:44.980
August 15, on Mary's Day, 2009, I professed first

00:37:44.980 --> 00:37:49.659
vows. And then on the 800th of Claire, August

00:37:49.659 --> 00:37:54.440
11, 2012, I said I do for the rest of my life.

00:37:55.400 --> 00:38:00.460
Now, of course, the formation does not stop there.

00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.000
You know, initial formation, man, when you take

00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:06.079
final vows, but certainly the ongoing formation.

00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:08.940
And one of the reasons I love the Franciscan

00:38:08.940 --> 00:38:11.599
Brothers of Brooklyn and the Third Order. of

00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:15.480
Franciscans is that our charism, if you will,

00:38:15.500 --> 00:38:18.239
our defining statement is continuous conversion.

00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:21.880
I love that. Trying to get up every morning,

00:38:22.019 --> 00:38:26.420
turn away from sin, turn more and more to God,

00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:31.300
to the Father through Jesus. And again, some

00:38:31.300 --> 00:38:34.829
days I do it better than others. My human condition

00:38:34.829 --> 00:38:39.150
still comes to bear sometimes. And like anybody

00:38:39.150 --> 00:38:41.690
else, I'm human. But I'm much more intentional,

00:38:41.789 --> 00:38:45.250
much more aware. And so I'm trying more and more

00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:49.349
and more to be intentional about my life, the

00:38:49.349 --> 00:38:52.309
choices I make, who I'm hanging around with,

00:38:52.489 --> 00:38:55.670
how I'm spending the money that I get, things

00:38:55.670 --> 00:38:58.829
of this nature, et cetera. Yeah. And like you

00:38:58.829 --> 00:39:03.690
said, your internal life is more vibrant. compared

00:39:03.690 --> 00:39:09.070
to you know and and again like i think i think

00:39:09.070 --> 00:39:12.110
we have to be a little careful here because and

00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:14.809
you've done a great job of this you know it's

00:39:14.809 --> 00:39:18.230
not that those 30 years in big pharma were a

00:39:18.230 --> 00:39:22.219
waste you know like i i think I think sometimes,

00:39:22.219 --> 00:39:24.980
at least for me, like sometimes I think like,

00:39:25.059 --> 00:39:28.139
oh, like there's this specific path out there

00:39:28.139 --> 00:39:31.320
and oh man, I missed that path for 10 years.

00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:34.460
I missed that path for 15. Well, no, because

00:39:34.460 --> 00:39:38.820
the dead ends in my life actually. took me got

00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:43.019
me on the path you know like like i i wouldn't

00:39:43.019 --> 00:39:46.280
have been able to go right or left without hitting

00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:50.659
that fork in the road you know so i mean there's

00:39:50.659 --> 00:39:59.039
um and i yeah i i just i appreciate you the integrated

00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:04.159
approach you have to your journey. These 30 years

00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.780
took you somewhere expansive. And yeah, do you

00:40:08.780 --> 00:40:10.639
have any comments or thoughts on that? Well,

00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:13.780
thank you very, very much. Someone said to me

00:40:13.780 --> 00:40:16.880
that every beginning does start with an ending.

00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:19.559
And certainly my religious life could never have

00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:23.139
begun without an ending to my career in Big Pharma.

00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:27.659
But what's very, very interesting is that When

00:40:27.659 --> 00:40:31.519
we think about that time in Big Pharma, I could

00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:35.059
look at it as a failure. But then we think about

00:40:35.059 --> 00:40:40.000
Francis. He failed as a cloth merchant. He failed

00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:43.420
as a soldier. What was his dream was not to become

00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:47.940
St. Francis, but Sir Francis. He failed miserably.

00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:50.780
Be a knight. He wanted to be a knight. Exactly.

00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:54.329
He surrendered. And look what happened to him.

00:40:54.389 --> 00:40:57.030
Certainly God took him right down the back. And

00:40:57.030 --> 00:41:00.989
it's the same with me. I may have failed being

00:41:00.989 --> 00:41:03.909
an accountant. I may have failed at being a training

00:41:03.909 --> 00:41:07.849
manager in Big Pharma. But these were great learning

00:41:07.849 --> 00:41:10.429
experiences and retrospect that have helped me

00:41:10.429 --> 00:41:15.489
enormously in my role in ministry and in my role

00:41:15.489 --> 00:41:18.570
as brother. here in the Franciscan Brothers of

00:41:18.570 --> 00:41:21.190
Brooklyn. So it's interesting. We can. It's so

00:41:21.190 --> 00:41:23.670
easy. And I talk about this in the book I wrote.

00:41:23.829 --> 00:41:26.570
I could easily, and there were times where I

00:41:26.570 --> 00:41:31.170
looked at myself as a failure. But indeed, I

00:41:31.170 --> 00:41:33.969
may have failed at certain things. And even today,

00:41:34.070 --> 00:41:36.590
there's a lot of initiatives I'm involved in.

00:41:36.949 --> 00:41:39.889
Some of them go better than others. Some of them...

00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:42.300
I fail, if you will, but they're not a failure.

00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:44.840
I'm not a failure. They're learning experiences.

00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:48.239
So we continue the journey of learning. No question

00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:51.400
about that. Yes, because it's so interesting.

00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:56.539
You can very easily, even on the spiritual path,

00:41:56.840 --> 00:42:01.980
and even as things are opening up within you,

00:42:02.139 --> 00:42:07.630
you can still easily slip back in. to that mindset

00:42:07.630 --> 00:42:10.889
where all of a sudden you're labeling things

00:42:10.889 --> 00:42:15.250
again and you're saying oh like i'm really this

00:42:15.250 --> 00:42:18.010
was really successful you know oh this was a

00:42:18.010 --> 00:42:20.329
failure i must be a failure and it's like well

00:42:21.099 --> 00:42:24.139
the same dynamic is on display that was in the

00:42:24.139 --> 00:42:26.719
corporate world now it's just taking it now it's

00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:29.500
just like taking a different shape and then it's

00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:32.219
i i find that very interesting in my life how

00:42:32.219 --> 00:42:35.980
these tendencies that i have can still slip into

00:42:35.980 --> 00:42:40.099
the most unexpected uh pure if you will spaces

00:42:40.099 --> 00:42:43.320
you got that right it's very interesting steven

00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:47.730
because when you label someone We negate them.

00:42:47.849 --> 00:42:50.010
So that's really important that we don't label

00:42:50.010 --> 00:42:52.429
ourselves. Probably we're quicker to label ourselves

00:42:52.429 --> 00:42:56.590
than others. No question about that. But how

00:42:56.590 --> 00:43:00.090
we look at ourselves and what was gone well in

00:43:00.090 --> 00:43:01.869
our lives. And of course, we learn much more

00:43:01.869 --> 00:43:04.530
from our failures and our successes. So again,

00:43:04.610 --> 00:43:06.389
if we can look at these as learning opportunities,

00:43:06.610 --> 00:43:10.530
wow, that could propel us as we go forward. And

00:43:10.530 --> 00:43:14.420
they should propel us as we go forward. Yeah,

00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:18.159
I tell my golfers and this didn't come from me.

00:43:18.199 --> 00:43:21.519
I actually I got it from a couple of pit crew

00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:24.019
coaches in Charlotte who I helped them with their

00:43:24.019 --> 00:43:27.179
book. Great guys, Mike Metcalf and Sean Pete.

00:43:27.340 --> 00:43:29.280
That's their name. And they wrote a leadership

00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:33.519
book. And the phrase they always used with their

00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:38.320
pit crew guys was win or learn. Oh, I love that.

00:43:39.380 --> 00:43:42.980
So it, and you said it like you actually learn

00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:48.360
a lot from your failures, you know? So like after

00:43:48.360 --> 00:43:50.900
a tough golf round, um, you know, I'll tell,

00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:54.360
I'll tell one of my girls like, Hey, like, what'd

00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:57.760
you learn from today? Okay. Well, this may actually

00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.840
propel you forward more than the round where

00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:04.199
you feel like you won, you know? So like, again,

00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:07.710
nothing's wasted. As long as you're learning,

00:44:07.849 --> 00:44:10.809
like nothing is wasted. And in fact, new things

00:44:10.809 --> 00:44:14.789
are opening up. And that leads to, you know,

00:44:14.829 --> 00:44:17.909
I've heard a lot of Franciscans talk about this

00:44:17.909 --> 00:44:21.530
notion of downward mobility. And when I hear

00:44:21.530 --> 00:44:24.369
your journey, that's a phrase that comes to mind.

00:44:24.429 --> 00:44:26.869
And, you know, a lot of the themes of this conversation

00:44:26.869 --> 00:44:31.860
is failure, for example, like. I mean, that's

00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:34.280
downward mobility, like engaging failure and

00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.420
learning from it and allowing new things to open

00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:40.920
up within your soul. I mean, what does that phrase

00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:45.539
mean to you? Well, it really is very, very Franciscan

00:44:45.539 --> 00:44:50.280
because as Franciscans, we are not to be thinking

00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:53.940
about promotion and titles and prestige and putting

00:44:53.940 --> 00:44:57.320
our name on the marquee. It really is about service

00:44:57.320 --> 00:44:59.380
to others. And I talk about this in the book.

00:44:59.949 --> 00:45:03.889
that for my whole big pharma career, it was about

00:45:03.889 --> 00:45:06.329
achievement. It was about accomplishment. It

00:45:06.329 --> 00:45:08.510
was about money and all of these disordered loves.

00:45:08.670 --> 00:45:12.570
But it wasn't about contribution. See, that's

00:45:12.570 --> 00:45:15.630
to me the Franciscan view of career in particular.

00:45:15.869 --> 00:45:19.690
It's not about my personal success. What can

00:45:19.690 --> 00:45:21.969
I contribute to the world? How can I take these

00:45:21.969 --> 00:45:25.469
gifts that Father, Son, Holy Spirit have provided

00:45:25.469 --> 00:45:30.880
to me and use it to really... see the good inside

00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:34.699
of ourselves or myself in order to maximize my

00:45:34.699 --> 00:45:38.760
contribution to transform a world. And Stephen,

00:45:38.780 --> 00:45:41.039
I don't know how you feel, but in Brooklyn, there

00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:43.239
are a few of us who feel the world is in need

00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:45.960
of transformation right now. And this is what

00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:49.400
I tell my students at the college. Indeed, it's

00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.860
about contribution. It's about seeing the good.

00:45:52.940 --> 00:45:56.880
It's about sharing the good to maximize the contribution.

00:45:57.559 --> 00:46:01.360
really to transform the world. And that's to

00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:04.159
me what it's all about. So that downward mobility,

00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:07.599
again, it's not about personal success. It's

00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.039
about contribution. Now, it's very interesting

00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:12.760
in my life, what's happened to me at St. Francis

00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:15.300
College, we have a new president there, relatively

00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:18.440
new president, Timothy Ciceri. He came in about

00:46:18.440 --> 00:46:23.389
two and a half years ago. Fortunately, before

00:46:23.389 --> 00:46:27.570
even he got there, again, my ministry is at St.

00:46:27.650 --> 00:46:31.130
Francis. I have no dreams of being this or that

00:46:31.130 --> 00:46:34.630
or getting to this height. And what he's done

00:46:34.630 --> 00:46:37.630
is, he's a very unique individual. He has no

00:46:37.630 --> 00:46:40.250
higher ed experience. He came from the corporate

00:46:40.250 --> 00:46:44.449
world as well. And he saw some gifts in me that

00:46:44.449 --> 00:46:47.690
previous leaders have not seen. And he's been

00:46:47.690 --> 00:46:50.829
giving me, he named me to the cabinet. He's given

00:46:50.829 --> 00:46:54.329
me different roles and different responsibilities.

00:46:55.030 --> 00:47:01.110
And so I'm now at a point where I don't want

00:47:01.110 --> 00:47:02.510
to say I have influence in the organization,

00:47:02.570 --> 00:47:05.489
but I'm involved in conversations that I was

00:47:05.489 --> 00:47:08.590
never involved in before. Bottom line is when

00:47:08.590 --> 00:47:12.070
you stop trying to raise in the organization,

00:47:12.110 --> 00:47:16.190
many times that's when you start to. have more

00:47:16.190 --> 00:47:18.130
influence, et cetera, et cetera. It's just like

00:47:18.130 --> 00:47:20.250
control. What I've learned the hard way, I used

00:47:20.250 --> 00:47:23.050
to be a control freak, okay? Control, control,

00:47:23.150 --> 00:47:26.170
control. What I found out the hard way, when

00:47:26.170 --> 00:47:28.789
you give up control is when you get control.

00:47:28.989 --> 00:47:31.750
I had this wonderful, Carolina is her name, this

00:47:31.750 --> 00:47:34.530
student assistant. And she knows a heck of a

00:47:34.530 --> 00:47:36.730
lot more than I do about mostly everything we

00:47:36.730 --> 00:47:39.349
do. And so instead of telling her how to do it,

00:47:39.369 --> 00:47:41.289
I said, Carolina, here's what we're trying to

00:47:41.289 --> 00:47:44.239
do. You go do it at whatever way you want. Because

00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:47.920
I trust you and I'm going to defer to your judgment.

00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:51.179
You take control. And invariably, 99 out of 100

00:47:51.179 --> 00:47:53.239
times, she does it the way I would have wanted

00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:56.880
her to do it. It's very fast. Yeah. This is what,

00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:59.440
to me, downward mobility is about. Get rid of

00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.320
the control. Stop worrying about the positions

00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:06.159
and the titles and the ascension to et cetera,

00:48:06.219 --> 00:48:08.920
et cetera, you know, high levels. But downward

00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:16.860
mobility. In this reflection, I wanted to sit

00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:19.739
with Brother Greg Cellini's words about downward

00:48:19.739 --> 00:48:24.179
mobility. I think this quote really lands his

00:48:24.179 --> 00:48:27.139
journey and invites each of us to consider and

00:48:27.139 --> 00:48:30.539
perhaps even recalibrate our direction from upward

00:48:30.539 --> 00:48:33.639
mobility, where we're focused on climbing, doing,

00:48:33.940 --> 00:48:36.840
achieving, boosting our ego, flexing our importance,

00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.239
accumulating money, power or fame. I could go

00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:44.179
on and on and shifting that instead. to downward

00:48:44.179 --> 00:48:49.119
mobility. His brother Greg shared, quote, it's

00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:53.000
about contribution. It's about seeing the good.

00:48:53.539 --> 00:48:56.960
It's about sharing the good to maximize a contribution,

00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:01.420
really to transform the world. Downward mobility.

00:49:01.539 --> 00:49:04.260
Again, he says, it's not about personal success.

00:49:04.619 --> 00:49:08.019
It's about contribution. It's about getting rid

00:49:08.019 --> 00:49:11.039
of control. Stop worrying about positions and

00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:14.980
titles in ascension. to higher levels, end quote.

00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:20.619
So in a world that so often communicates to us

00:49:20.619 --> 00:49:24.219
and even taunts us at times, what's your importance

00:49:24.219 --> 00:49:28.000
and what do you do? The notion of downward mobility,

00:49:28.179 --> 00:49:32.539
I think, helps to remind us what is really important

00:49:32.539 --> 00:49:36.400
and discover our true values beneath our dreams

00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:41.750
and desires and awaken. And awaken an awareness

00:49:41.750 --> 00:49:45.969
to our true self in union with Christ in the

00:49:45.969 --> 00:49:56.929
process. Now, back to the episode. Yeah, this

00:49:56.929 --> 00:49:59.230
came from Mike and Sean as well, but I always

00:49:59.230 --> 00:50:03.739
say titles are for books. I love it. I love it.

00:50:03.739 --> 00:50:06.559
Who cares what your title is? You know, I mean,

00:50:06.579 --> 00:50:10.420
let's focus on the work that we get to do to

00:50:10.420 --> 00:50:12.780
hopefully make this world a better place, you

00:50:12.780 --> 00:50:16.380
know, in service to others. You're getting into

00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:19.579
it. And I appreciate you talking about some of

00:50:19.579 --> 00:50:22.760
your experiences at St. Francis College. I was

00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:26.260
curious. I mean, what does the Franciscan charism

00:50:26.260 --> 00:50:30.739
look like in an educational? setting to you from

00:50:30.739 --> 00:50:32.940
your perspective? Wow, what a great, great question.

00:50:33.099 --> 00:50:36.199
Thank you for asking that. St. Francis College

00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:41.400
is part of the AFCU, the Association of Franciscan

00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:44.300
Colleges and Universities, about 22 schools across

00:50:44.300 --> 00:50:47.800
the country. We're a Franciscan school with a

00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:50.880
Catholic tradition. One of the great things about

00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:56.440
Brooklyn is that we have close to 40 faith affiliations

00:50:56.440 --> 00:51:00.679
at St. Francis. So it's all about the group I'm

00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:03.280
in, mission, ministry, interfaith, dialogue,

00:51:03.400 --> 00:51:07.239
really being the spiritual hub for the college.

00:51:07.739 --> 00:51:11.059
And what we try to do naturally is we present

00:51:11.059 --> 00:51:15.400
a venue, a forum, where anybody, whether they're

00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:18.159
Catholic or Jewish, Muslim, it doesn't matter,

00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:22.159
can grow in their faith. So this is really today

00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:24.519
what it's all about. And what's so wonderful.

00:51:25.150 --> 00:51:28.409
is that the values and ideals of Francis are

00:51:28.409 --> 00:51:32.829
really the basis for these religions. We have

00:51:32.829 --> 00:51:35.869
so much more in common than our differences,

00:51:35.909 --> 00:51:39.449
certainly. So this is what we do. We really try

00:51:39.449 --> 00:51:43.550
to share with our students how they can live

00:51:43.550 --> 00:51:48.170
a Franciscan way of life. Because we feel, naturally,

00:51:48.409 --> 00:51:51.469
by living a Franciscan way of life, they're going

00:51:51.469 --> 00:51:54.119
to transform the world. No question. It's going

00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:56.340
to be a better world for themselves, better world

00:51:56.340 --> 00:52:00.440
for everyone. So we don't necessarily, you know,

00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:02.579
certainly we have mass and things of that nature.

00:52:02.659 --> 00:52:08.400
We don't talk and try to convert people to Catholicism,

00:52:08.420 --> 00:52:11.039
Christianity, et cetera, et cetera. We let them

00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:13.800
choose whatever faith they would like, but we

00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:16.519
try to help all of them in their relationship

00:52:16.519 --> 00:52:20.650
with whomever they're guided. Yeah, it goes back

00:52:20.650 --> 00:52:23.130
to what you said earlier about control, you know,

00:52:23.130 --> 00:52:27.110
and I think that's where religion has gone astray

00:52:27.110 --> 00:52:30.389
often in the past is, you know, we got to get

00:52:30.389 --> 00:52:34.750
more people on our team. Well, no, this is actually

00:52:34.750 --> 00:52:39.469
about depth. This is about healing. This is about,

00:52:39.550 --> 00:52:43.030
like you said, like preparing someone to do transformative

00:52:43.030 --> 00:52:46.719
work in the world. Who cares what your label

00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:52.059
is? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What have you, I'm curious,

00:52:52.300 --> 00:52:55.679
what have you, what are some observations that

00:52:55.679 --> 00:53:00.840
you've noticed about youth today and the challenges

00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:03.239
that some of the students that you're around

00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:06.429
are facing today? One of the things with our

00:53:06.429 --> 00:53:10.010
students is that they're really very hardworking,

00:53:10.090 --> 00:53:13.829
certainly. Many of them, because of their financial

00:53:13.829 --> 00:53:17.289
position, many of them work, which is a good

00:53:17.289 --> 00:53:20.210
thing, to support themselves and to try to pay

00:53:20.210 --> 00:53:23.670
off their education. They are hardworking. They

00:53:23.670 --> 00:53:27.099
are kind. But it's indeed very interesting because

00:53:27.099 --> 00:53:31.360
the pandemic really impacted the students we

00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:33.960
have today, not only at our college, but literally

00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:36.940
all over the country and world. And they struggle

00:53:36.940 --> 00:53:40.739
at times to have conversation. They struggle

00:53:40.739 --> 00:53:44.039
at times to have encounters, certainly. And they

00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:47.380
almost shy away. One of the things I used to

00:53:47.380 --> 00:53:49.719
do, I used to teach a class called Franciscan

00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:53.519
Career Transformation, and we would collect the

00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:56.480
cell phones. Put in what we call the basket of

00:53:56.480 --> 00:53:59.039
freedom. I would say we're going to free you

00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:02.510
from these. Another one of the disordered loves.

00:54:02.670 --> 00:54:04.690
You know, these cell phones are wonderful things,

00:54:04.789 --> 00:54:06.630
but when you're spending five hours on social

00:54:06.630 --> 00:54:09.650
media, there's another disordered love, certainly.

00:54:09.909 --> 00:54:12.869
So one of the things that they really struggle

00:54:12.869 --> 00:54:15.590
with sometimes is the ability to talk to one

00:54:15.590 --> 00:54:18.369
another, to have these spontaneous encounters,

00:54:18.769 --> 00:54:21.650
things of this nature, et cetera, et cetera.

00:54:21.750 --> 00:54:25.070
The other thing they're really looking for, it's

00:54:25.070 --> 00:54:28.750
very fascinating. I sense the last couple of

00:54:28.750 --> 00:54:34.570
years, These students are really seeking God.

00:54:34.949 --> 00:54:40.750
They're really seeking some sort of refuge because

00:54:40.750 --> 00:54:43.550
I think they've seen their parents and maybe

00:54:43.550 --> 00:54:46.750
even some of their grandparents have a life without

00:54:46.750 --> 00:54:50.949
religion, without God. And I sense more and more.

00:54:51.530 --> 00:54:53.969
They really want to be a part of something. That's

00:54:53.969 --> 00:54:56.349
the other thing. They don't want to be on them

00:54:56.349 --> 00:54:58.809
by themselves anymore. They really want to be

00:54:58.809 --> 00:55:01.550
part of something. They want to see a bigger

00:55:01.550 --> 00:55:04.909
picture and strive to make change. Certainly.

00:55:06.110 --> 00:55:10.429
Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoy hearing about the

00:55:10.429 --> 00:55:13.630
work that you're doing at St. Francis College.

00:55:13.809 --> 00:55:19.010
And yeah, this generation coming up, I mean,

00:55:19.030 --> 00:55:22.489
I'm around them. every day um not every day but

00:55:22.489 --> 00:55:25.849
two or three times a week for coaching and such

00:55:25.849 --> 00:55:30.530
a wonderful special generation then i mean but

00:55:30.530 --> 00:55:33.530
i mean they're they're growing up in a world

00:55:33.530 --> 00:55:37.639
that I mean, I cannot imagine being in high school

00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:40.519
and having a little computer in my pocket, you

00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:43.920
know, where in seconds I could open up Instagram

00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:47.320
and be comparing myself to others. You know,

00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:52.719
I mean, it is. It is. Yeah. I'm sorry to interrupt

00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:55.119
you. You probably, Stephen, have seen this as

00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:57.179
well. And these are some of the things we talk

00:55:57.179 --> 00:56:00.519
about is that spending all this time on social

00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:05.170
media, what you're seeing often. I have some

00:56:05.170 --> 00:56:09.050
of the students lament, gee, my life is so confusing,

00:56:09.150 --> 00:56:11.889
so topsy -turvy, and all these other people I

00:56:11.889 --> 00:56:14.989
see out there, everything's just wonderful. And

00:56:14.989 --> 00:56:17.809
of course, we've got to share that, okay, you're

00:56:17.809 --> 00:56:21.610
only seeing posts that are the best parts of

00:56:21.610 --> 00:56:23.809
people's lives. You know, how many people put

00:56:23.809 --> 00:56:26.130
the crappy parts, the crapolas, I like to say,

00:56:26.190 --> 00:56:29.630
part of their lives out? They don't, okay? So

00:56:29.630 --> 00:56:32.530
it's not realistic what you're not seeing the

00:56:32.530 --> 00:56:36.179
whole picture. And that's why the social media,

00:56:36.199 --> 00:56:39.079
unfortunately, gives the students a tendency

00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:42.079
to compare themselves to others. Again, my life

00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:45.119
is not as good as theirs, this and that, et cetera,

00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:48.119
et cetera. And it does lead to, unfortunately,

00:56:48.500 --> 00:56:52.239
mental health challenges, physical health challenges,

00:56:52.380 --> 00:56:55.539
et cetera. So again, the social media, these

00:56:55.539 --> 00:56:58.039
other tools, the iPhone, you know, the Android,

00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:02.159
they're wonderful when they're used as intended.

00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:07.280
But when not, they can be damaging. They can

00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:10.059
be very distracting. And that's another word

00:57:10.059 --> 00:57:13.059
I wanted to just bring up. Today's world has

00:57:13.059 --> 00:57:17.820
so many distractions. And it's so easy. I know

00:57:17.820 --> 00:57:22.059
myself, you know, I really need to be intentional

00:57:22.059 --> 00:57:25.719
about staying focused. But I can imagine how

00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:29.380
difficult it is for a 67 -year -old brother to

00:57:29.380 --> 00:57:33.139
do this. uh imagine these students today there's

00:57:33.139 --> 00:57:36.820
an awful lot of of things varying for their attention

00:57:36.820 --> 00:57:41.559
yeah yeah and i'm i mean i'm i don't want to

00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:45.519
sound like i'm immune to it i i grew up when

00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:47.820
i was in college that's when like twitter was

00:57:47.820 --> 00:57:52.519
coming you know and then and then the first couple

00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:55.019
years in my career I was working in a sports

00:57:55.019 --> 00:57:57.840
magazine and I actually had the opportunity to

00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.519
go to a couple Super Bowl media days and that

00:58:01.519 --> 00:58:05.480
that's when like it became very important for

00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:08.440
me to have an iPhone you know to be able to post

00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:14.500
instantaneously with that you know and it I told

00:58:14.500 --> 00:58:16.820
my girls the other day we were having a mental

00:58:16.820 --> 00:58:20.409
game discussion team meeting And I told him,

00:58:20.409 --> 00:58:23.610
I have to delete my social media apps because

00:58:23.610 --> 00:58:27.230
I find myself comparing myself to other authors

00:58:27.230 --> 00:58:31.349
and creatives. And then I slip right back in.

00:58:31.849 --> 00:58:34.489
to everything that we've been talking about where

00:58:34.489 --> 00:58:37.710
it's like wow you are such a failure because

00:58:37.710 --> 00:58:41.869
you've only sold x number of books wow you are

00:58:41.869 --> 00:58:44.989
you know like you you you spent all this time

00:58:44.989 --> 00:58:47.010
writing this article and you didn't even promote

00:58:47.010 --> 00:58:48.650
it like what are you doing with your you know

00:58:48.650 --> 00:58:51.989
and it's like this really toxic internal dialogue

00:58:51.989 --> 00:58:58.989
of like again placing my identity in my own perception

00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:03.579
of my performance, you know, like that. That's

00:59:03.579 --> 00:59:06.360
what's crazy is that it's not even the performance

00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:09.820
itself. It's my own warped perception of it.

00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:14.320
Yeah. Or, or even like weirder than that, what

00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:18.539
I'm perceiving other people to perceive about

00:59:18.539 --> 00:59:24.579
my performance. It's like, you know, gosh, I

00:59:24.579 --> 00:59:27.440
mean, it's like you said it beautifully. I mean,

00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:31.320
just get back to ordered love. Get back to ordered

00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:35.699
love. I mean, and things open up. Things begin

00:59:35.699 --> 00:59:38.699
to open up when your priorities are, yeah. That

00:59:38.699 --> 00:59:41.039
is so important. I think that's one of the things

00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:44.420
I love about working with our students is that

00:59:44.420 --> 00:59:48.019
I really try to work with them to uncover their

00:59:48.019 --> 00:59:53.289
life purpose. But what are their values? What

00:59:53.289 --> 00:59:56.409
is really, really important to them? And to have

00:59:56.409 --> 00:59:59.309
them consider those values when they're making

00:59:59.309 --> 01:00:02.530
their decisions. No question about that. So it

01:00:02.530 --> 01:00:05.710
all really can come together, but it takes a

01:00:05.710 --> 01:00:08.349
lot of intentionality. Because one of the things

01:00:08.349 --> 01:00:10.210
that hit me, I think I might have mentioned before,

01:00:10.309 --> 01:00:14.869
we have a tendency to be our worst self -critic.

01:00:15.500 --> 01:00:18.159
We say things to ourselves we would never say

01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:21.139
to anybody else. And I know myself, I've tried

01:00:21.139 --> 01:00:24.980
to stop that, certainly. But again, it's intentionality.

01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:30.119
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, thank you for sharing

01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:32.260
about some of your work at St. Francis College.

01:00:33.199 --> 01:00:37.340
With this episode coming out in October, this

01:00:37.340 --> 01:00:41.480
should be published maybe two, three, four days

01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:45.030
after the feast day of St. Francis. Wow! You

01:00:45.030 --> 01:00:48.949
have a new project that you're launching this

01:00:48.949 --> 01:00:52.289
year, correct? Can you share a little bit about

01:00:52.289 --> 01:00:55.190
Franciscan Month? Oh, that's so kind of you to

01:00:55.190 --> 01:00:58.789
give me the form to do that, Stephen. Franciscan

01:00:58.789 --> 01:01:01.809
Month started a couple of years ago. And again,

01:01:01.909 --> 01:01:04.010
we have to blame the Holy Spirit. You know, she

01:01:04.010 --> 01:01:07.510
did it again because it was... The Holy Spirit's

01:01:07.510 --> 01:01:12.570
a good scapegoat. I think the Holy Spirit's happy

01:01:12.570 --> 01:01:15.530
to be escaping. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

01:01:15.829 --> 01:01:20.750
But in early 2023, I had been doing this radio

01:01:20.750 --> 01:01:23.710
show, thank God, for Monday and been doing it

01:01:23.710 --> 01:01:26.590
for, by that time, about 15 years. And it was

01:01:26.590 --> 01:01:29.610
very interesting because five years previous,

01:01:29.809 --> 01:01:34.170
we had started theming shows. So June, Pride

01:01:34.170 --> 01:01:38.730
Month, March on Women's History, Black History

01:01:38.730 --> 01:01:43.199
Month. And I learned so much about these movements.

01:01:43.980 --> 01:01:48.760
In 2023, first quarter, it hit me. Why don't

01:01:48.760 --> 01:01:51.019
we have a Franciscan month with this beautiful

01:01:51.019 --> 01:01:54.739
800 -year tradition? And what a wonderful way

01:01:54.739 --> 01:01:58.179
to share the Franciscan way of life with others.

01:01:58.460 --> 01:02:01.940
So we started small at St. Francis College. We

01:02:01.940 --> 01:02:04.380
used to have a Claire and Francis week. We extended

01:02:04.380 --> 01:02:06.559
it to a whole month. And that was pretty well

01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:11.179
received. And then in 24, we expanded it to six

01:02:11.179 --> 01:02:14.219
dioceses, three in New Jersey, three in New York,

01:02:14.219 --> 01:02:17.139
as well as the college. And then that went from,

01:02:17.199 --> 01:02:19.679
we had a lot of, I talk about failures and learnings

01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:23.079
and this and that. And so come 2025, we said,

01:02:23.079 --> 01:02:25.840
you know what? Let's try to take this concept

01:02:25.840 --> 01:02:28.599
nationally. And that's what we've done. We got

01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:32.199
approximately 20 Franciscans, kind -hearted Franciscans

01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:35.780
together from all around the country. and get

01:02:35.780 --> 01:02:40.760
together and really try to set a plan by which

01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:44.119
we can share with others the Franciscan way of

01:02:44.119 --> 01:02:48.000
life. And what's very fascinating is that the

01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.980
Bible talks about, Jesus talks about, we leave

01:02:50.980 --> 01:02:54.840
the one, I'm sorry, we leave the 99 to go after

01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:57.840
the one. Well, in our case, we're really leaving

01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:01.059
the one to go after the 99 because there's so

01:03:01.059 --> 01:03:05.110
many people like I used to be. who really aren't

01:03:05.110 --> 01:03:08.070
familiar with Francis or like I was, I thought

01:03:08.070 --> 01:03:11.469
he was the bird bat scene. But there is so much,

01:03:11.469 --> 01:03:14.969
the continuous conversion, the service to others,

01:03:15.170 --> 01:03:17.630
the kissing of the leper, all of these great

01:03:17.630 --> 01:03:21.170
things, conversion of heart, that we said we

01:03:21.170 --> 01:03:24.750
really need to get the essence of the true Francis

01:03:24.750 --> 01:03:28.230
out there. So what we've done is, and this is

01:03:28.230 --> 01:03:32.210
thanks to Franciscan Media, Chris Heffron, yourself,

01:03:32.730 --> 01:03:37.559
Frank. Fabulous website, franciscanmonth .org,

01:03:37.739 --> 01:03:41.280
all one string there, www .franciscanmonth .org.

01:03:41.420 --> 01:03:44.880
It's an amazing site. We've had a couple already

01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:49.340
events across the country, if you will. FAN has

01:03:49.340 --> 01:03:52.739
been so wonderful to deal with. We did a transitist

01:03:52.739 --> 01:03:54.980
recently on October 2nd. There's going to be

01:03:54.980 --> 01:03:58.280
a conference later in October that sold out.

01:03:58.360 --> 01:04:00.300
It's going to be another national event. But

01:04:00.300 --> 01:04:03.539
also on the 15th, of October. It's going to be

01:04:03.539 --> 01:04:08.300
a wonderful event. The 22 AFCU schools are going

01:04:08.300 --> 01:04:12.860
to have an adoration for peace at the same time,

01:04:12.940 --> 01:04:15.900
3 p .m. Eastern. So in the schools that want

01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:17.980
to participate, we've got about a dozen already.

01:04:18.989 --> 01:04:22.550
We are going to expose the Eucharist and then

01:04:22.550 --> 01:04:24.989
everybody at the same time. So it could be 12

01:04:24.989 --> 01:04:28.889
noon in California, 1 p .m. in Denver, 2 p .m.

01:04:28.889 --> 01:04:31.489
Chicago, 3 p .m. on the East Coast. But we'll

01:04:31.489 --> 01:04:35.929
all be in solidarity praying for peace. Oh, I

01:04:35.929 --> 01:04:38.829
love that. That's awesome. And what's very interesting

01:04:38.829 --> 01:04:41.530
is some of the poor clairs heard about this.

01:04:41.610 --> 01:04:44.349
These monasteries want to join. And then some

01:04:44.349 --> 01:04:46.349
of the religious congregations found out about

01:04:46.349 --> 01:04:49.300
this. They want to join as well. Again, the Holy

01:04:49.300 --> 01:04:53.840
Spirit just doing her magic, certainly. But the

01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:57.239
real essence of what we're doing is trying to

01:04:57.239 --> 01:05:00.239
educate others, to introduce them to what does

01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:02.659
it mean to be Franciscan, live a Franciscan way

01:05:02.659 --> 01:05:05.460
of life. And this website, franciscanmonth .org,

01:05:05.539 --> 01:05:08.840
is so wonderful for that, certainly. Yeah, what

01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:12.099
are your hopes for Franciscan Month moving forward?

01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:15.420
Well, it's interesting because we were originally

01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:18.139
scheduled for 2026 for the 800th anniversary

01:05:18.139 --> 01:05:20.860
to take this around the world. But what we've

01:05:20.860 --> 01:05:23.960
seen is most likely we're going to have a second

01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:27.599
year throughout the U .S., really hone our efforts,

01:05:27.860 --> 01:05:30.340
try to do some more events, maybe regionally

01:05:30.340 --> 01:05:33.739
in certain areas of the country, and then 2027

01:05:33.739 --> 01:05:37.960
to take it globally. And our dream is to have

01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:44.510
a people blessing from... Pope Leo XIV of Franciscan

01:05:44.510 --> 01:05:47.329
month, October is Franciscan month. So that's

01:05:47.329 --> 01:05:49.610
the dream. But it's interesting because when

01:05:49.610 --> 01:05:52.750
you think of the pride movement, black history,

01:05:52.929 --> 01:05:56.789
all of these designated months, things took a

01:05:56.789 --> 01:06:00.309
while to plant seeds. Some of these have had

01:06:00.309 --> 01:06:02.769
parades with a million people in New York City.

01:06:03.050 --> 01:06:05.530
That's not going to happen tomorrow. Maybe five

01:06:05.530 --> 01:06:09.429
years, maybe 10 years from now. Somebody said

01:06:09.429 --> 01:06:11.170
to me, Greg, you know, this is great. You're

01:06:11.170 --> 01:06:14.070
planting seeds now. When they sprout, you're

01:06:14.070 --> 01:06:16.650
probably going to be taking a dirt bath. I said,

01:06:16.690 --> 01:06:19.949
OK, maybe what God wants me to do is just plant.

01:06:20.570 --> 01:06:25.570
Somebody else will take over. We Franciscans

01:06:25.570 --> 01:06:27.929
can have some dark humor for sure. Absolutely.

01:06:28.409 --> 01:06:32.269
No question. It frees us up. Well, I mean, one

01:06:32.269 --> 01:06:35.489
of the things I love about Franciscan Month is

01:06:35.489 --> 01:06:41.300
just. Not unlike Advent or Lent or, like you

01:06:41.300 --> 01:06:44.079
said, Black History Month or Pride Month. I mean,

01:06:44.099 --> 01:06:48.019
it invites you in to encounter and experience.

01:06:48.380 --> 01:06:52.019
And you mentioned this word a couple times, intentionality.

01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:55.880
I mean, in this world of distractions, like you

01:06:55.880 --> 01:06:59.940
said, a lot of times we just need some kind of

01:06:59.940 --> 01:07:02.989
anchor. that helps us to be more intentional.

01:07:03.269 --> 01:07:06.449
And like, there's a calendar on the Franciscan

01:07:06.449 --> 01:07:09.210
month website. And I mean, you can, you could

01:07:09.210 --> 01:07:13.590
really treat this as a kind of Lenten experience

01:07:13.590 --> 01:07:16.230
in a lot of ways, but in October, um, you have

01:07:16.230 --> 01:07:18.610
any, any thoughts on that? Oh, no question about

01:07:18.610 --> 01:07:21.949
that. Uh, Lena, one of our members, along with

01:07:21.949 --> 01:07:25.110
Chris, the Franciscan meeting yourself. put together

01:07:25.110 --> 01:07:28.650
this amazing calendar. And every day it has,

01:07:28.730 --> 01:07:31.869
we have a theme for every week in October, but

01:07:31.869 --> 01:07:34.769
each day there's a little reading. Then there's

01:07:34.769 --> 01:07:37.750
a way to put it into practice. Of course, faith,

01:07:37.909 --> 01:07:40.949
what do they say? Faith without works is dead.

01:07:41.289 --> 01:07:44.190
So indeed, it is just so wonderful. As you say,

01:07:44.349 --> 01:07:46.829
it could be like a Latin experience for the 31

01:07:46.829 --> 01:07:54.590
days of October. Yeah. I love it. Well, Brother

01:07:54.590 --> 01:08:01.079
Greg, we have covered a lot of ground. I really

01:08:01.079 --> 01:08:04.260
appreciate you sharing your journey with us.

01:08:04.380 --> 01:08:09.019
I mean, it is a beautiful and relatable journey.

01:08:09.219 --> 01:08:13.500
And I never take it for granted whenever someone

01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:17.760
opens up and shares their story. I mean, I find

01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:22.479
it to be very humbling to trust me and our listeners

01:08:22.479 --> 01:08:25.710
with your story and your journey. Thank you.

01:08:25.989 --> 01:08:28.909
Do you have any departing words for our listeners?

01:08:28.949 --> 01:08:31.510
I want to say thank you, and I'm hoping if I

01:08:31.510 --> 01:08:34.689
touch one person who hears this, I'll be very

01:08:34.689 --> 01:08:37.909
satisfied. Thank you for listening, certainly,

01:08:38.069 --> 01:08:40.869
to this story and giving me this amazing opportunity

01:08:40.869 --> 01:08:45.149
to be here today with you. We do have a prayer

01:08:45.149 --> 01:08:48.130
for Franciscan Month that, if it's okay with

01:08:48.130 --> 01:08:50.750
you, I'd like to close with, in the name of the

01:08:50.750 --> 01:08:53.449
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

01:08:54.170 --> 01:08:59.130
Amen. A prayer for Franciscan month. Most high

01:08:59.130 --> 01:09:03.930
and merciful God, who bonded us as a family,

01:09:04.069 --> 01:09:09.289
brothers and sisters to all creation, enlighten

01:09:09.289 --> 01:09:13.609
us in living the Holy Gospel by walking in Francis'

01:09:13.829 --> 01:09:18.890
footsteps to Christ in our daily lives. Amen.

01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:22.479
In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the

01:09:22.479 --> 01:09:26.100
Holy Spirit. Amen. And one of the things I love

01:09:26.100 --> 01:09:29.420
about this prayer is that it mentions brother

01:09:29.420 --> 01:09:32.579
and sister. And that's the other reason I love

01:09:32.579 --> 01:09:35.979
being a Franciscan, is that to us, there is no

01:09:35.979 --> 01:09:40.859
stranger. We are all brother and sister. So again,

01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:43.500
Stephen, thank you very much. I wish you and

01:09:43.500 --> 01:09:46.239
I wish all our listeners a very blessed Franciscan

01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:48.949
month. Don't hesitate. Franciscan month ought

01:09:48.949 --> 01:09:52.069
to work, certainly. Perfect. Thank you, Brother

01:09:52.069 --> 01:09:58.930
Greg. Bye -bye. Once again, that was Brother

01:09:58.930 --> 01:10:02.890
Greg Cellini. I've linked to his book, Transform

01:10:02.890 --> 01:10:05.989
Yourself, Transform the World, in the show notes

01:10:05.989 --> 01:10:09.489
of this episode. It is available on Tao Publishing's

01:10:09.489 --> 01:10:12.470
website. And I've also linked to his radio show,

01:10:12.630 --> 01:10:15.470
Thank God for Monday, thankgodformonday .com,

01:10:15.550 --> 01:10:18.250
as well as his new project, Franciscan Month,

01:10:18.390 --> 01:10:21.770
franciscanmonth .org, in the show notes as well.

01:10:22.510 --> 01:10:25.609
Huge thanks to Brother Greg for sharing his beautiful

01:10:25.609 --> 01:10:29.350
story on this episode. And thanks to you, as

01:10:29.350 --> 01:10:32.810
always, for your support of Off the Page. This

01:10:32.810 --> 01:10:35.750
is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all

01:10:35.750 --> 01:10:43.100
good, and happy Franciscan Month. I will lead

01:10:43.100 --> 01:10:47.500
you into the desert with me and tenderly speak

01:10:47.500 --> 01:10:48.420
to your...