Welcome to Off the Page. It's great to be with
you. St. Francis of Assisi famously prayed, Who
are you, my God, and who am I? Today's guest,
Brother Greg Cellini, found himself praying a
similar prayer after almost three decades of
working and climbing within the pharmaceutical
industry. It was then that he made the pivot
of all pivots and began the process of entering
religious life. His journey is one that invites
each of us to contemplate the source of our dreams
and desires. And this wild story, I think it
invites each of us to consider who and whose
we are and why we do what we do. To me, this
is the perfect conversation to share in early
October, just after the feast day of St. Francis.
And I've provided reflection segments throughout
this episode to really sit with the wisdom that
Brother Greg shares in this conversation. A few
things about Brother Greg before we get going.
He is a Franciscan brother of Brooklyn, and his
primary ministry is at St. Francis College in
Brooklyn, New York, where he has served as director
of the Office of Mission, Ministry, and Interfaith
Dialogue, as well as an adjunct professor. He
is host of Thank God for Monday, a weekly radio
show about the workplace. And he is a graduate
of St. Bonaventure University's Advanced Certificate
in Franciscan Studies. He also earned degrees
at Rutgers Graduate School of Management and
Seton Hall University, their Stillman School
of Business. He's the author of Transform Yourself,
Transform the World, A Franciscan View of Career.
So without further ado, here is Brother Greg
Cellini. Enjoy. Brother Greg Cellini, thanks
for joining me. The honor is all mine, Stephen.
To begin, take us back to the 1990s. What was
going on in your life at that time? Wow, it was
really an exciting time, a confusing time. I
had been in the company Hoffman LaRoche Big Pharmaceuticals
for just about 13 years as of 1990. And I was
doing work in the finance department. I had earned
my CPA working for Roche. And they treated me
so well for my entire career there, my entire
29 years. I really want to make sure that I communicate
that. But in the early 90s there, I was in an
accounting position dealing with strategic alliances,
licensing programs, research collaborations,
co -promotion. But what had happened over those
years, those 13 years, is I came to identify
myself with how I was doing at work. If things
were going great, then I felt really good. If
they weren't going so well, then I wasn't feeling
good about myself. And it came to a point where
I did one of the three greatest things I ever
did. And they really propelled or this propelled
the two other greater things. And that's when
I went for 15 months of therapy. It was really,
really important to me because it helped cleanse
me. It helped me to clear some of the clutter
and some of the confusion and try to get me on
a road, really a road that God wanted me to be
on, certainly. During that course of time, I
was in my MBA studies. I got my undergraduate
degree from Seton Hall, class of 85, and then
Rutgers, 1994. So there was an awful lot of things
going on. physically, mentally, emotionally,
spiritually during those early 90s. No question
about that. What was your spiritual background?
Did you grow up Catholic? I did. I was blessed
to have two wonderful parents who are with God
now. My four older siblings, I'm the last of
five, are still with me. And it was a beautiful
Catholic family. My parents really said they
never went to college, either one of them. They
sacrificed, but all five of us, through Catholic
education. I went to St. Paul Grammar School
and then Paul VI High School. And then, ironically,
my senior year, I was working for Roche as a
work -study student, going to school, high school
in the morning, working in the afternoon. And
right at the end of my tenure there, senior year,
when I was graduating in June of 77, it became
apparent I really had this dream of going to
Seton Hall. But it was just out of my price range.
Lo and behold, a job came open at Roche just
required a high school degree. And they said,
if you come to work for us full time, we'll pay
your education at night. That's what I did. And
got an amazing education at the Catholic University
of New Jersey at Seton Hall. Still am very close
with people at Seton Hall there, doing my own
radio show there, thank God for Monday, and just
been a part of my life ever since I first walked
onto the campus there. But indeed, I had a solid,
solid Catholic education for the 16 years. I
was always a weekly churchgoer, and then at some
times during my career, even going a bit more
frequently, a couple of times a week, certainly.
Yeah, you mentioned your sense of identity and
then 15 months of therapy as well. So, I mean,
you have this Catholic spiritual background,
but then you also are sensing that your identity
is getting really tied up in work and accomplishing
and the ebbs and flows of your worth being tied
to your performance, essentially. So when did
things begin to shift within you or maybe another
way to start? say it is, when did you begin to
sense that there was a problem? I would say the
early 2000s, 2001, 2002. I could really sense
that God was calling me. I had in 1994 purchased
my own townhouse, so I was now no longer living
with my parents, living alone. And I had that
sense by the early 2000s that God was kind of
calling me to live differently and to love differently,
certainly. And at that point, you had been in
big pharma for about 25, 27 years. Exactly. In
June of 20, I'm sorry, June of 2002, I celebrated
my 25th anniversary. And that was a very important
milestone. That was a dream. to be able to celebrate
that 25th anniversary. One of the nice perks
at Roche is that anyone who was there 25 years
or longer got to go to a dinner every October
celebrating all these 25 -year anniversaries
and above. And it was really, that was my dream.
I don't know why I had that dream because it's
very interesting. There were people during the
90s who were asking me, gee, you know, have you
ever thought of, of leaving. Matter of fact,
there was one very, very interesting conversation
I had with a colleague of mine at the time. And
she said, Greg, you know, if you thought about
leaving, you don't seem like you're galvanized
here, that you really want to come to work anymore,
that your heart is somewhere else. And I remember
when she said that, I was speechless. My knees
were shaking so hard I could have cracked a walnut
if it was between them, certainly, as we like
to say. But that was never something my late
father had worked 45 years for Chase Manhattan
Bank. I was going to do the same in Big Pharma,
you know, retire. Now, he, of course, had the
blessing of a wife and five children. I didn't
have those blessings, certainly. But indeed,
I had never even thought about leaving, no question
about it. But then came those early 2000s. I
could really sense what was going on, that there
was something going on inside of me. I didn't
know quite what. What was very interesting, 2004,
I accompanied some people on a pilgrimage to
Canada with what we like to call, I guess, differently
abled pilgrims. And that was really amazing,
a really amazing experience. That was, as I recall,
August of 2004. And then August 2005, I wanted
to go back. But what happened was I had to go
to Europe on business. And in the beginning,
I used to love, love, love to go to Europe on
business. These beautiful places, wonderful hotels,
your state, et cetera. But my entire time in
Switzerland during that August 2005 trip, my
heart was in Canada. My heart was really with
that other group. So I sense that something is
really stirring here. Yeah, what was so impactful
about that Canada trip to you? That is a great
question. I think just being at these different
sites, St. Joe's in Montreal, going to Marie
à la Cape in Quebec, just these places were amazing.
And just the interaction with the pilgrims, these
differently abled pilgrims, to see that I can
indeed make a difference, a positive difference
in someone's life. So really, That 2005, when
I was in Switzerland, in this beautiful country
with my colleagues, my head was there, my heart
was there, but my, I'm sorry, my head was there
and my mouth was there. My heart was definitely
in Canada. And I sensed, oh boy, something's
really happening here. Yeah, you mentioned something
very interesting, and we're going to get to your
transition here very soon, but you said, I don't
know why I had that dream referencing to being
25 years in big pharma. Yes. Can you go into
the nuances of that? I think that will be very
relatable to people because I mean, at least
in my own life, I've noticed at times that I
become very machine -like in, in what I mean
by that is that you're essentially reacting.
to what you think you're supposed to do and for
me at least i really relate to your story for
me at least usually it goes back to accomplishing
things you know like um and then a lot of times
when i even creatively a lot of times when i
zoom out i'm like I don't know why I had that
dream. It was never really about publishing the
book. It was about the creative process along
the way and the things that I learned about myself
and the things that God opened up within me along
the way. And you get to the end, this dream,
and you're like, there's a mysterious kind of
emptiness here. the things that I enjoyed the
most was actually the process and the journey
that took me there. So anyway, can you go into
the nuances, complexity of that statement? I
don't know why I had that dream. Sure. It's very,
very interesting because when I think about it,
when I look back, especially into the early nineties
there, as I was in big pharma longer and longer,
I got lured by the trappings of the world, the
money. The cars, the houses, the fame, the positions,
the titles, all those things. I think this just
tied into it that, to me, the pinnacle was spending
25 years to be able to go to this dinner. And
when looking back, I say to myself, you know,
what was this all about? And again, it was part
of the trappings. I had made this, this achievement,
this accomplishment, the gold watch, you know,
all of these things. And this was totally my
fault. As I said, the organization from day one
to the day I was downsized treated me so gently
and so wonderfully. But I really got off the
track there. How much money am I making? What's
my title? All of these kinds of things. Really,
these, what I now, as a Franciscan, I like to
call disordered loves. And clear to the audience,
unfortunately, even as a Franciscan brother,
there's disordered loves like food and other
things that I still struggle with. But indeed,
so I think that's a part of our whole lodge.
But I really got off the track during the 90s
there. And I was very blessed that in the 2000s,
in those first few years, I was able to get back
on the course. Yeah. So fast forward, that leads
perfectly here to, you know, fast forward to
2006. What happened that year and where did your
journey go from there? Yeah, it was really amazing.
Actually, it was May of 2005 to May of 2006,
that 12 -year period. And I'll never forget the
date. The date was May 25, 2005. I met with leadership
from the UK. They came to Nutley, New Jersey,
where I was at the time. They expressed their
disappointment. I got a sense that they would
have liked to have sacked me right on the spot,
but I had a good record and I had been there
a long time, so they needed to build a case,
certainly. But it's very good because that night,
I went to the seven o 'clock mass at my parish,
Our Lady of Mount Virgin, and I was the accolade.
And so while I received communion and then the
priest was distributing communion to everybody
else, I literally, Stephen, I literally prostrated
myself, looked right in that tabernacle and said,
God, I've screwed this up enough. You take it
over. That was my moment of surrender. That was
my Francis kissing the leper moment. That was
really the moment where I really turned my heart
to God and said again, you know, I've messed
this up. You've got to take this over. You've
got to do it. Now, did I ever think what would
happen the next 20 years would happen? I was
clueless. But for the first time in my life,
I really gave up because it was very interesting.
I didn't mention before I was five years at Roche
and a couple of people came to me and said, Greg,
you don't belong here. You belong either in the
church or in higher education. Both ironically,
certainly exactly where I belong. But it's very,
very interesting that in May of 2025. I'm sorry,
2005, looking in that tabernacle. And I think
back what a beautiful, as difficult as that was,
as low as I was feeling, what a beautiful moment
of surrender and to say, God, yeah, you just
do it from here. Yeah, it's a beautiful image.
And as I listened to you, I mean, I sensed that
a lot of things were kind of... shifting or maybe
even crashing down in a sense within you yeah
i mean for such a long time your identity is
tied up in what you're accomplishing or not accomplishing.
And now your superiors come to you and they're
disappointed and you feel like your job is on
the line. So all of a sudden that, that identity
again is like, Oh, who, who am I? Can you go
a little bit deeper into that moment of that
night of surrender that you talked about? Like
where did, what opened up within you that night?
And then where did, How did things go from there
spiritually? It was really a feeling of desperation.
It was my back against the wall moment. But really,
it was a feeling of desperation that I had tried
so hard for my working years to be someone, to
make a contribution, to have an impact, to grow,
to make more money. And all of this, I think
you alluded to, was just crashing down. In this
first reflection, I wanted to take a moment and
sit with what brother Greg Cellini introduced
to us through his story. One major theme thus
far is the notion of dreams and desires. I have
realized in my own life that oftentimes my dreams
and desires need to be evaluated. I have to consider
where are they coming from? How are they impacted
by my own cultural ideals or my own ego or even
my own insecurities? A lot of times, as Brother
Greg shared, we're not even sure why we have
certain dreams or desires. He said his dream
was to make it to 25 years in pharmaceuticals
at Roche so he could attend a dinner each year.
Why? He wasn't really sure. One of my favorite
authors is the great Hoosier science fiction
writer Kurt Vonnegut. A theme he often plays
with in many of his novels is the notion that
human beings are becoming more machine -like
in their dependence on technology and corporations,
merely reacting to their own cultural programming.
But this is where the spiritual life and contemplation
comes in, and it's even essential, I'd argue.
Vonnegut, he was no Christian, but he once wrote,
Our awareness is all that is alive and may be
sacred to any of us. Everything else about us
is dead machinery. Brother Greg's story invites
us to adopt the awareness Vonnegut is writing
about. His story invites us to consider where
our dreams and desires are coming from and to
really get curious about their source. And my
hope is that Brother Greg's story might move
us to take on St. Francis' words and boldly pray
his prayer. Who are you, my God, and who am I?
As Brother Greg writes in his book, quote, it
can be difficult to have the courage to take
the time for reflection. However, by doing so,
one can gain clarity of purpose. recognize stumbling
blocks in advance, prepare for setbacks as well
as opportunities, and move forward in alignment
with our values and goals, end quote. Now, back
to the episode. And it was just a total feeling
of desperation. Now, the company was very kind
to me, as I said, for all the whole period. But
they provided some coaching sessions with Gallup.
Gallup, of course, we've heard of for polling,
but I never realized that they had a coaching
block or division as well. So in preparation,
I was getting three sessions with my coach who
was in Omaha, Nebraska. So we were doing it via
phone. And in preparation, I had to fill out
the Strength Finders assessment. And is this
like during 2006? Is this when you're kind of
transitioning out? I apologize. No, this was
during that period, May of 2005 to May of 2006.
So it was probably about August when this started.
And I fill out the strength finders and I get
on the phone with Rosemary, my coach from Gallup.
And she says, Greg, right away. She said, I have
your results here. Something's very wrong. Something's
very wrong. You're like, thanks. Someone else
who thinks I'm inadequate. We haven't even known
each other for more than five minutes. Are you
supposed to be my coach? So she said, your profile,
your five strengths are much more geared to religious
life than corporate life. Do you think you have
a vocation? And I remember just being speechless.
And Rosemary told me, because we're still friends
to this day, she really shared with me that she
thought she might have messed up her career by
asking me that, even though she was much later
in her career, certainly. So it was very interesting.
I said, I really don't know. I really don't know.
And so she gave me a homework assignment, amongst
other assignments. But she said, I want you to
go see three religious congregations before we
get together again and just explore, go explore.
Well, I did go see three. The third was the Franciscan
Brothers of Brooklyn. I met with them in October,
October 29, actually, of 05. And something really
felt right. I remember calling my mother when
I got home from that visit. I said, Mom, this
really feels right. I can't explain it, but it
just felt very right. What was her reaction?
Well, it's interesting because my sister, my
wonderful sister Celeste, was a former temporary
professed sister of charity. So this was back
in the early 70s. when religious life was all
different. There was some trepidation there that
she had, certainly. I think more than anything,
she didn't realize how different religious life
has become today. It tells the story that she
couldn't even bring a box of candy to her daughter
when she would visit. Things were much stricter
back then. But the whole irony about Rosemary
is that... She was a former novice with the Franciscan
Sisters out in Indiana. And in retrospect, after
I became a brother, she shared with me, she said,
you know, you could have gotten any one of 18
coaches. Yes. I was picked to coach you. And
she is certain that the other 17 would not have
realized this. Yeah. Rosemary spent 26 years
with Gallup, and she said to me that she believes
one of the reasons that she was there was to
foster my vocation. Wow. Yeah. But there's no
question there was divine, the Holy Spirit, she,
the Holy Spirit, was all over my vocation. There's
no question about that. Yeah. Yeah. As you share
that, what makes you so emotional? I mean, that
is it's incredible that she ends up with you.
Yeah, absolutely. The fact that God would put
Rosemary in my path just at the right time. She's
a great secular Franciscan at this day. So she's
aware of the beautiful Franciscan order. She's
familiar with Franciscan community. So there's
no doubt that God wanted me at this point to
become a Franciscan brother of Brooklyn. And
to this day, people have said, gee, Gray, how
do you feel 20 years later? And I say, I have
no doubt. God wants me to be a Franciscan brother
or brother. That's why I'm so happy. That's why
I'm so joyful. That's why I'm so content. It
feels great every day and every night to be able
to go to get up and go to bed knowing that I'm
where God wants me to be. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned
visiting a couple different religious communities.
You could have gone a number of different paths
into religious life. What is it that drew you
to St. Francis and St. Clair? Well, it's so interesting
because, and I don't say this lightly, but what's
very interesting is that I have, and I've discovered
this later on, I should say since I've become
a brother, I've discovered so much about me.
I was clueless as to who I was, and I really
didn't even know there was an interior life that
needed to be. that needed to be inspected, if
you will, or explored. But it was so interesting
because what I've discovered, and it's okay,
I have a very low IQ. People say, gee, Greg,
are you interested in the priesthood? I can never
study. I can't retain any of that stuff, understand
it, et cetera, et cetera. But what I have found
out about myself is that I have a higher than
normal, and I hate to use these generalizations,
but for a man, EQ. emotional intelligence. So
I have higher empathy. I can listen. I love to
listen more than speak, even though some people
don't believe that. That's okay too. But indeed,
so the higher ego. To me, the Franciscans and
I have some brothers and many OFMs and TORs.
They're brilliant. I mean, absolutely brilliant.
Both sisters and brothers and priests. But to
me, the difference between the Franciscan and
the other orders is the other orders use their
mind or their mouth or both. Franciscans primarily
go and deal from the heart. And that's what I
found. That's what I was not doing during my
30 years in big pharma. I was not living from
the heart. I was living from the head. I was
living from the mouth. And again, when you're
dealing with the head and the mouth. The trappings,
those disordered loves, those are the things
that we want to follow. Can you go, sorry, go
ahead. I was going to say you're in competition
with the people you work with, not there to collaborate,
certainly. Yeah, well, that leads very nicely
into my next question. I mean, you've used that
phrase disordered love a couple times. It's very
interesting. Can you go a little bit deeper into
what you mean by that? Yeah, I don't know where
I got the phrase. I certainly read it somewhere.
But things like money, things like titles, things
like possessions. And there's nothing wrong with
any of these. But when they become the God, when
they become more important than Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit, when they become the motivation
for what we do and who we are, that's where...
To me, the line gets drawn. That's where you
stepped over. I've stepped over the line. So
we've got to be very, very careful about these
disordered loves, be it alcohol, be it gambling,
be it entertainment. Leisure is wonderful. I
love to play golf. I'm a terrible golfer. But
there were periods of time in my life where I
took it very seriously. Am I getting better and
this and that? And again, it started to consume
me. and take me away from the Almighty. Golf
is a very Franciscan game. It's outdoors. It's
fun. It's fresh air. It's leisure. And all of
this is very important. So now I keep an improper
perspective, play a few times a year, mostly
at various outings, don't care about score, go
out and have fun. To me, that's a very ordered
love. Yeah. Well, we'll have to go play golf
sometime. That'd be a lot of fun. I'm sure you
can give me some pointers. I understand you're
a virtuoso coach and player. So that would be.
I don't know about that. I played at a really
small school because that was the only school
that would allow me to be on the team. But yeah,
I do coach high school golf. And yeah, and it's
one of my favorite things about coaching goes
into exactly what you're saying. I mean. In golf
and in a lot of things in life and in a lot of
things in this country in particular, so much
comes down to performance. And in golf, especially
in competitive golf, the first thing they say
to you when you get done is, what'd you shoot?
What was your score? So your score, your score
card, it's really like... staring at, staring
you down throughout the course of a four, five,
six hour round. And I love coaching because one
of the many reasons I love coaching is it gets
into a lot of these conversations that you, a
lot of these themes that you and I are hitting
on in our conversation is that, well, who are
you? What's your identity? You know, you're probably
not going to remember this golf round in three
months, certainly three years. Sure. But you.
you may remember the laughter on the bus ride.
You may remember the team trip. You may remember
being outside playing a beautiful course and
the challenges of that day and the playing partners
you got to meet. So it's this interesting kind
of shift to I'm not my performance. This is about
process and enjoyment and having fun and what
I can learn about my own emotions and mentality
in the process of this incredibly difficult and
personal game. Yes, absolutely. It's so funny
because recently, St. Francis College, where
my ministry is at, we had our annual fundraiser
for golf. It was a golf outing. And it was just
so wonderful. And I said, please. Put me with
three other people who don't are not concerned
about winning or whatever. And they did. We had
a ball and it's motivating us maybe to be paired
again next year. And yeah, conversation during
the round. And of course, invariably, everyone
hits a good shot or two. And that's what brings
you back as well. But it's just so wonderful.
Really. In this reflection, I wanted to consider
Brother Greg Cellini's words about ordered love
and how something that is good in nature can
sometimes become derailed by our own approach
to this inherently good thing. This is a really
interesting theme to me in my own life as a writer
and as a creative. One of the cues, one of the
internal cues to me that I'm no longer in the
space of ordered love is when my desire slips
into some kind of desperation. For example, I
remember once finishing a memoir and querying
a number of agents and publishers about the project.
And in the following days and weeks, I became
miserable. I slipped into a desperate longing
for affirmation. I began checking my email nonstop.
It was as if it was the only thing I was thinking
about. And with each rejection letter, I began
to even second guess aspects of the proposal
and the book itself. And again, these rejections
are coming from people who did not know me and
who I did not know. All that to say, I spiraled
into something that can only be described as
obsession or desperation. Now, I think that part
of this is human, and we need to give ourselves
a lot of gentle love and grace as we evaluate
our desires and our dreams. I mean, in this situation,
I had worked for a half decade on this project,
and to put it out there to be judged by people
who I didn't know, like I said, that was an incredibly
vulnerable act. And in vulnerability, there's
courage. I'm proud of myself for that. But I
also needed to remember in this process, in this
vulnerability, I needed to remember who I was
in the midst of this loss of control and rejection.
I was the beloved. You know, as Henry Nouwen
once wrote, quote, I kept running around it in
large and small circles, looking for someone
or something to convince me that I was the beloved.
This is the kind of desperation I'm speaking
to. God tells us we're the beloved. And yet so
often in my life, I run around other things in
large or small circles, looking for them, desperately
looking for them to convince me that I'm the
beloved. Because the truth is that no rejection
or sign of apathy toward a project that came
from such a deep place in my own heart. could
change how God felt about me, how my loved ones
felt about me, or if I was honest, how I felt
about myself. The joy and fulfillment came in
the creating, in the daring to create, day after
day after day. It didn't come in the results
of what I had created. In this letting go, I'm
so often reminded of who I am, whose I am. And
what is mine to do? Detached from results. Now,
back to the episode. Yeah, yeah, I love what
you said. Going back to your journey here. I
mean, I love what you said about disordered love
and ordered love. And then I'm curious, you know,
as you begin to you. You shift away from Big
Pharma. You leave almost 30 years in that industry
behind. And you start going down the Franciscan
path toward religious life. When did you take
your vows and what else opened up within you
as you went deeper into that journey? Well, it's
very interesting because May 5, 2006 was my last
day in Big Pharma. And I'll never forget walking
out. saying, I will never, ever use the skills
I've learned here. In particular, I was involved
with change management. And so I start with the
brothers, September the 1st, I was very blessed.
I got to go on a retreat in July of 06 to Assisi
and Roma, which was wonderful. But then I started
September of 06, my candidacy, or some people
call postulancy, spent two years. And then the
year of novitiate. started in August of 08. And
what was very fascinating was that it was a year.
It was the most important 12 months of my life.
It wasn't the funnest. It wasn't the greatest.
But I say to this day, and it will always be
the most important, because I was blessed to
have a novice director, 24 -7, 365, one -on -one.
And it was like having a life coach for a whole
year. And someone said to me, gee, Greg, you
would have paid close to half a million dollars
to have a life coach observe you for that period
of time. It was very interesting. He was able,
in his beautiful Franciscan way, to see inside
of me and see a lot of the clutter and the hatred
and these other negative emotions that had built
up. that were really inside this interior life,
again, that I was not aware of until becoming
a brother. And he put me through things like
the Enneagram, Myers -Briggs. So I really started
to get to know myself. It was really an exercise
in self -analysis, self -awareness. And so I
was very, very blessed. That was an amazing year.
August 15, on Mary's Day, 2009, I professed first
vows. And then on the 800th of Claire, August
11, 2012, I said I do for the rest of my life.
Now, of course, the formation does not stop there.
You know, initial formation, man, when you take
final vows, but certainly the ongoing formation.
And one of the reasons I love the Franciscan
Brothers of Brooklyn and the Third Order. of
Franciscans is that our charism, if you will,
our defining statement is continuous conversion.
I love that. Trying to get up every morning,
turn away from sin, turn more and more to God,
to the Father through Jesus. And again, some
days I do it better than others. My human condition
still comes to bear sometimes. And like anybody
else, I'm human. But I'm much more intentional,
much more aware. And so I'm trying more and more
and more to be intentional about my life, the
choices I make, who I'm hanging around with,
how I'm spending the money that I get, things
of this nature, et cetera. Yeah. And like you
said, your internal life is more vibrant. compared
to you know and and again like i think i think
we have to be a little careful here because and
you've done a great job of this you know it's
not that those 30 years in big pharma were a
waste you know like i i think I think sometimes,
at least for me, like sometimes I think like,
oh, like there's this specific path out there
and oh man, I missed that path for 10 years.
I missed that path for 15. Well, no, because
the dead ends in my life actually. took me got
me on the path you know like like i i wouldn't
have been able to go right or left without hitting
that fork in the road you know so i mean there's
um and i yeah i i just i appreciate you the integrated
approach you have to your journey. These 30 years
took you somewhere expansive. And yeah, do you
have any comments or thoughts on that? Well,
thank you very, very much. Someone said to me
that every beginning does start with an ending.
And certainly my religious life could never have
begun without an ending to my career in Big Pharma.
But what's very, very interesting is that When
we think about that time in Big Pharma, I could
look at it as a failure. But then we think about
Francis. He failed as a cloth merchant. He failed
as a soldier. What was his dream was not to become
St. Francis, but Sir Francis. He failed miserably.
Be a knight. He wanted to be a knight. Exactly.
He surrendered. And look what happened to him.
Certainly God took him right down the back. And
it's the same with me. I may have failed being
an accountant. I may have failed at being a training
manager in Big Pharma. But these were great learning
experiences and retrospect that have helped me
enormously in my role in ministry and in my role
as brother. here in the Franciscan Brothers of
Brooklyn. So it's interesting. We can. It's so
easy. And I talk about this in the book I wrote.
I could easily, and there were times where I
looked at myself as a failure. But indeed, I
may have failed at certain things. And even today,
there's a lot of initiatives I'm involved in.
Some of them go better than others. Some of them...
I fail, if you will, but they're not a failure.
I'm not a failure. They're learning experiences.
So we continue the journey of learning. No question
about that. Yes, because it's so interesting.
You can very easily, even on the spiritual path,
and even as things are opening up within you,
you can still easily slip back in. to that mindset
where all of a sudden you're labeling things
again and you're saying oh like i'm really this
was really successful you know oh this was a
failure i must be a failure and it's like well
the same dynamic is on display that was in the
corporate world now it's just taking it now it's
just like taking a different shape and then it's
i i find that very interesting in my life how
these tendencies that i have can still slip into
the most unexpected uh pure if you will spaces
you got that right it's very interesting steven
because when you label someone We negate them.
So that's really important that we don't label
ourselves. Probably we're quicker to label ourselves
than others. No question about that. But how
we look at ourselves and what was gone well in
our lives. And of course, we learn much more
from our failures and our successes. So again,
if we can look at these as learning opportunities,
wow, that could propel us as we go forward. And
they should propel us as we go forward. Yeah,
I tell my golfers and this didn't come from me.
I actually I got it from a couple of pit crew
coaches in Charlotte who I helped them with their
book. Great guys, Mike Metcalf and Sean Pete.
That's their name. And they wrote a leadership
book. And the phrase they always used with their
pit crew guys was win or learn. Oh, I love that.
So it, and you said it like you actually learn
a lot from your failures, you know? So like after
a tough golf round, um, you know, I'll tell,
I'll tell one of my girls like, Hey, like, what'd
you learn from today? Okay. Well, this may actually
propel you forward more than the round where
you feel like you won, you know? So like, again,
nothing's wasted. As long as you're learning,
like nothing is wasted. And in fact, new things
are opening up. And that leads to, you know,
I've heard a lot of Franciscans talk about this
notion of downward mobility. And when I hear
your journey, that's a phrase that comes to mind.
And, you know, a lot of the themes of this conversation
is failure, for example, like. I mean, that's
downward mobility, like engaging failure and
learning from it and allowing new things to open
up within your soul. I mean, what does that phrase
mean to you? Well, it really is very, very Franciscan
because as Franciscans, we are not to be thinking
about promotion and titles and prestige and putting
our name on the marquee. It really is about service
to others. And I talk about this in the book.
that for my whole big pharma career, it was about
achievement. It was about accomplishment. It
was about money and all of these disordered loves.
But it wasn't about contribution. See, that's
to me the Franciscan view of career in particular.
It's not about my personal success. What can
I contribute to the world? How can I take these
gifts that Father, Son, Holy Spirit have provided
to me and use it to really... see the good inside
of ourselves or myself in order to maximize my
contribution to transform a world. And Stephen,
I don't know how you feel, but in Brooklyn, there
are a few of us who feel the world is in need
of transformation right now. And this is what
I tell my students at the college. Indeed, it's
about contribution. It's about seeing the good.
It's about sharing the good to maximize the contribution.
really to transform the world. And that's to
me what it's all about. So that downward mobility,
again, it's not about personal success. It's
about contribution. Now, it's very interesting
in my life, what's happened to me at St. Francis
College, we have a new president there, relatively
new president, Timothy Ciceri. He came in about
two and a half years ago. Fortunately, before
even he got there, again, my ministry is at St.
Francis. I have no dreams of being this or that
or getting to this height. And what he's done
is, he's a very unique individual. He has no
higher ed experience. He came from the corporate
world as well. And he saw some gifts in me that
previous leaders have not seen. And he's been
giving me, he named me to the cabinet. He's given
me different roles and different responsibilities.
And so I'm now at a point where I don't want
to say I have influence in the organization,
but I'm involved in conversations that I was
never involved in before. Bottom line is when
you stop trying to raise in the organization,
many times that's when you start to. have more
influence, et cetera, et cetera. It's just like
control. What I've learned the hard way, I used
to be a control freak, okay? Control, control,
control. What I found out the hard way, when
you give up control is when you get control.
I had this wonderful, Carolina is her name, this
student assistant. And she knows a heck of a
lot more than I do about mostly everything we
do. And so instead of telling her how to do it,
I said, Carolina, here's what we're trying to
do. You go do it at whatever way you want. Because
I trust you and I'm going to defer to your judgment.
You take control. And invariably, 99 out of 100
times, she does it the way I would have wanted
her to do it. It's very fast. Yeah. This is what,
to me, downward mobility is about. Get rid of
the control. Stop worrying about the positions
and the titles and the ascension to et cetera,
et cetera, you know, high levels. But downward
mobility. In this reflection, I wanted to sit
with Brother Greg Cellini's words about downward
mobility. I think this quote really lands his
journey and invites each of us to consider and
perhaps even recalibrate our direction from upward
mobility, where we're focused on climbing, doing,
achieving, boosting our ego, flexing our importance,
accumulating money, power or fame. I could go
on and on and shifting that instead. to downward
mobility. His brother Greg shared, quote, it's
about contribution. It's about seeing the good.
It's about sharing the good to maximize a contribution,
really to transform the world. Downward mobility.
Again, he says, it's not about personal success.
It's about contribution. It's about getting rid
of control. Stop worrying about positions and
titles in ascension. to higher levels, end quote.
So in a world that so often communicates to us
and even taunts us at times, what's your importance
and what do you do? The notion of downward mobility,
I think, helps to remind us what is really important
and discover our true values beneath our dreams
and desires and awaken. And awaken an awareness
to our true self in union with Christ in the
process. Now, back to the episode. Yeah, this
came from Mike and Sean as well, but I always
say titles are for books. I love it. I love it.
Who cares what your title is? You know, I mean,
let's focus on the work that we get to do to
hopefully make this world a better place, you
know, in service to others. You're getting into
it. And I appreciate you talking about some of
your experiences at St. Francis College. I was
curious. I mean, what does the Franciscan charism
look like in an educational? setting to you from
your perspective? Wow, what a great, great question.
Thank you for asking that. St. Francis College
is part of the AFCU, the Association of Franciscan
Colleges and Universities, about 22 schools across
the country. We're a Franciscan school with a
Catholic tradition. One of the great things about
Brooklyn is that we have close to 40 faith affiliations
at St. Francis. So it's all about the group I'm
in, mission, ministry, interfaith, dialogue,
really being the spiritual hub for the college.
And what we try to do naturally is we present
a venue, a forum, where anybody, whether they're
Catholic or Jewish, Muslim, it doesn't matter,
can grow in their faith. So this is really today
what it's all about. And what's so wonderful.
is that the values and ideals of Francis are
really the basis for these religions. We have
so much more in common than our differences,
certainly. So this is what we do. We really try
to share with our students how they can live
a Franciscan way of life. Because we feel, naturally,
by living a Franciscan way of life, they're going
to transform the world. No question. It's going
to be a better world for themselves, better world
for everyone. So we don't necessarily, you know,
certainly we have mass and things of that nature.
We don't talk and try to convert people to Catholicism,
Christianity, et cetera, et cetera. We let them
choose whatever faith they would like, but we
try to help all of them in their relationship
with whomever they're guided. Yeah, it goes back
to what you said earlier about control, you know,
and I think that's where religion has gone astray
often in the past is, you know, we got to get
more people on our team. Well, no, this is actually
about depth. This is about healing. This is about,
like you said, like preparing someone to do transformative
work in the world. Who cares what your label
is? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What have you, I'm curious,
what have you, what are some observations that
you've noticed about youth today and the challenges
that some of the students that you're around
are facing today? One of the things with our
students is that they're really very hardworking,
certainly. Many of them, because of their financial
position, many of them work, which is a good
thing, to support themselves and to try to pay
off their education. They are hardworking. They
are kind. But it's indeed very interesting because
the pandemic really impacted the students we
have today, not only at our college, but literally
all over the country and world. And they struggle
at times to have conversation. They struggle
at times to have encounters, certainly. And they
almost shy away. One of the things I used to
do, I used to teach a class called Franciscan
Career Transformation, and we would collect the
cell phones. Put in what we call the basket of
freedom. I would say we're going to free you
from these. Another one of the disordered loves.
You know, these cell phones are wonderful things,
but when you're spending five hours on social
media, there's another disordered love, certainly.
So one of the things that they really struggle
with sometimes is the ability to talk to one
another, to have these spontaneous encounters,
things of this nature, et cetera, et cetera.
The other thing they're really looking for, it's
very fascinating. I sense the last couple of
years, These students are really seeking God.
They're really seeking some sort of refuge because
I think they've seen their parents and maybe
even some of their grandparents have a life without
religion, without God. And I sense more and more.
They really want to be a part of something. That's
the other thing. They don't want to be on them
by themselves anymore. They really want to be
part of something. They want to see a bigger
picture and strive to make change. Certainly.
Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoy hearing about the
work that you're doing at St. Francis College.
And yeah, this generation coming up, I mean,
I'm around them. every day um not every day but
two or three times a week for coaching and such
a wonderful special generation then i mean but
i mean they're they're growing up in a world
that I mean, I cannot imagine being in high school
and having a little computer in my pocket, you
know, where in seconds I could open up Instagram
and be comparing myself to others. You know,
I mean, it is. It is. Yeah. I'm sorry to interrupt
you. You probably, Stephen, have seen this as
well. And these are some of the things we talk
about is that spending all this time on social
media, what you're seeing often. I have some
of the students lament, gee, my life is so confusing,
so topsy -turvy, and all these other people I
see out there, everything's just wonderful. And
of course, we've got to share that, okay, you're
only seeing posts that are the best parts of
people's lives. You know, how many people put
the crappy parts, the crapolas, I like to say,
part of their lives out? They don't, okay? So
it's not realistic what you're not seeing the
whole picture. And that's why the social media,
unfortunately, gives the students a tendency
to compare themselves to others. Again, my life
is not as good as theirs, this and that, et cetera,
et cetera. And it does lead to, unfortunately,
mental health challenges, physical health challenges,
et cetera. So again, the social media, these
other tools, the iPhone, you know, the Android,
they're wonderful when they're used as intended.
But when not, they can be damaging. They can
be very distracting. And that's another word
I wanted to just bring up. Today's world has
so many distractions. And it's so easy. I know
myself, you know, I really need to be intentional
about staying focused. But I can imagine how
difficult it is for a 67 -year -old brother to
do this. uh imagine these students today there's
an awful lot of of things varying for their attention
yeah yeah and i'm i mean i'm i don't want to
sound like i'm immune to it i i grew up when
i was in college that's when like twitter was
coming you know and then and then the first couple
years in my career I was working in a sports
magazine and I actually had the opportunity to
go to a couple Super Bowl media days and that
that's when like it became very important for
me to have an iPhone you know to be able to post
instantaneously with that you know and it I told
my girls the other day we were having a mental
game discussion team meeting And I told him,
I have to delete my social media apps because
I find myself comparing myself to other authors
and creatives. And then I slip right back in.
to everything that we've been talking about where
it's like wow you are such a failure because
you've only sold x number of books wow you are
you know like you you you spent all this time
writing this article and you didn't even promote
it like what are you doing with your you know
and it's like this really toxic internal dialogue
of like again placing my identity in my own perception
of my performance, you know, like that. That's
what's crazy is that it's not even the performance
itself. It's my own warped perception of it.
Yeah. Or, or even like weirder than that, what
I'm perceiving other people to perceive about
my performance. It's like, you know, gosh, I
mean, it's like you said it beautifully. I mean,
just get back to ordered love. Get back to ordered
love. I mean, and things open up. Things begin
to open up when your priorities are, yeah. That
is so important. I think that's one of the things
I love about working with our students is that
I really try to work with them to uncover their
life purpose. But what are their values? What
is really, really important to them? And to have
them consider those values when they're making
their decisions. No question about that. So it
all really can come together, but it takes a
lot of intentionality. Because one of the things
that hit me, I think I might have mentioned before,
we have a tendency to be our worst self -critic.
We say things to ourselves we would never say
to anybody else. And I know myself, I've tried
to stop that, certainly. But again, it's intentionality.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, thank you for sharing
about some of your work at St. Francis College.
With this episode coming out in October, this
should be published maybe two, three, four days
after the feast day of St. Francis. Wow! You
have a new project that you're launching this
year, correct? Can you share a little bit about
Franciscan Month? Oh, that's so kind of you to
give me the form to do that, Stephen. Franciscan
Month started a couple of years ago. And again,
we have to blame the Holy Spirit. You know, she
did it again because it was... The Holy Spirit's
a good scapegoat. I think the Holy Spirit's happy
to be escaping. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
But in early 2023, I had been doing this radio
show, thank God, for Monday and been doing it
for, by that time, about 15 years. And it was
very interesting because five years previous,
we had started theming shows. So June, Pride
Month, March on Women's History, Black History
Month. And I learned so much about these movements.
In 2023, first quarter, it hit me. Why don't
we have a Franciscan month with this beautiful
800 -year tradition? And what a wonderful way
to share the Franciscan way of life with others.
So we started small at St. Francis College. We
used to have a Claire and Francis week. We extended
it to a whole month. And that was pretty well
received. And then in 24, we expanded it to six
dioceses, three in New Jersey, three in New York,
as well as the college. And then that went from,
we had a lot of, I talk about failures and learnings
and this and that. And so come 2025, we said,
you know what? Let's try to take this concept
nationally. And that's what we've done. We got
approximately 20 Franciscans, kind -hearted Franciscans
together from all around the country. and get
together and really try to set a plan by which
we can share with others the Franciscan way of
life. And what's very fascinating is that the
Bible talks about, Jesus talks about, we leave
the one, I'm sorry, we leave the 99 to go after
the one. Well, in our case, we're really leaving
the one to go after the 99 because there's so
many people like I used to be. who really aren't
familiar with Francis or like I was, I thought
he was the bird bat scene. But there is so much,
the continuous conversion, the service to others,
the kissing of the leper, all of these great
things, conversion of heart, that we said we
really need to get the essence of the true Francis
out there. So what we've done is, and this is
thanks to Franciscan Media, Chris Heffron, yourself,
Frank. Fabulous website, franciscanmonth .org,
all one string there, www .franciscanmonth .org.
It's an amazing site. We've had a couple already
events across the country, if you will. FAN has
been so wonderful to deal with. We did a transitist
recently on October 2nd. There's going to be
a conference later in October that sold out.
It's going to be another national event. But
also on the 15th, of October. It's going to be
a wonderful event. The 22 AFCU schools are going
to have an adoration for peace at the same time,
3 p .m. Eastern. So in the schools that want
to participate, we've got about a dozen already.
We are going to expose the Eucharist and then
everybody at the same time. So it could be 12
noon in California, 1 p .m. in Denver, 2 p .m.
Chicago, 3 p .m. on the East Coast. But we'll
all be in solidarity praying for peace. Oh, I
love that. That's awesome. And what's very interesting
is some of the poor clairs heard about this.
These monasteries want to join. And then some
of the religious congregations found out about
this. They want to join as well. Again, the Holy
Spirit just doing her magic, certainly. But the
real essence of what we're doing is trying to
educate others, to introduce them to what does
it mean to be Franciscan, live a Franciscan way
of life. And this website, franciscanmonth .org,
is so wonderful for that, certainly. Yeah, what
are your hopes for Franciscan Month moving forward?
Well, it's interesting because we were originally
scheduled for 2026 for the 800th anniversary
to take this around the world. But what we've
seen is most likely we're going to have a second
year throughout the U .S., really hone our efforts,
try to do some more events, maybe regionally
in certain areas of the country, and then 2027
to take it globally. And our dream is to have
a people blessing from... Pope Leo XIV of Franciscan
month, October is Franciscan month. So that's
the dream. But it's interesting because when
you think of the pride movement, black history,
all of these designated months, things took a
while to plant seeds. Some of these have had
parades with a million people in New York City.
That's not going to happen tomorrow. Maybe five
years, maybe 10 years from now. Somebody said
to me, Greg, you know, this is great. You're
planting seeds now. When they sprout, you're
probably going to be taking a dirt bath. I said,
OK, maybe what God wants me to do is just plant.
Somebody else will take over. We Franciscans
can have some dark humor for sure. Absolutely.
No question. It frees us up. Well, I mean, one
of the things I love about Franciscan Month is
just. Not unlike Advent or Lent or, like you
said, Black History Month or Pride Month. I mean,
it invites you in to encounter and experience.
And you mentioned this word a couple times, intentionality.
I mean, in this world of distractions, like you
said, a lot of times we just need some kind of
anchor. that helps us to be more intentional.
And like, there's a calendar on the Franciscan
month website. And I mean, you can, you could
really treat this as a kind of Lenten experience
in a lot of ways, but in October, um, you have
any, any thoughts on that? Oh, no question about
that. Uh, Lena, one of our members, along with
Chris, the Franciscan meeting yourself. put together
this amazing calendar. And every day it has,
we have a theme for every week in October, but
each day there's a little reading. Then there's
a way to put it into practice. Of course, faith,
what do they say? Faith without works is dead.
So indeed, it is just so wonderful. As you say,
it could be like a Latin experience for the 31
days of October. Yeah. I love it. Well, Brother
Greg, we have covered a lot of ground. I really
appreciate you sharing your journey with us.
I mean, it is a beautiful and relatable journey.
And I never take it for granted whenever someone
opens up and shares their story. I mean, I find
it to be very humbling to trust me and our listeners
with your story and your journey. Thank you.
Do you have any departing words for our listeners?
I want to say thank you, and I'm hoping if I
touch one person who hears this, I'll be very
satisfied. Thank you for listening, certainly,
to this story and giving me this amazing opportunity
to be here today with you. We do have a prayer
for Franciscan Month that, if it's okay with
you, I'd like to close with, in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Amen. A prayer for Franciscan month. Most high
and merciful God, who bonded us as a family,
brothers and sisters to all creation, enlighten
us in living the Holy Gospel by walking in Francis'
footsteps to Christ in our daily lives. Amen.
In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the
Holy Spirit. Amen. And one of the things I love
about this prayer is that it mentions brother
and sister. And that's the other reason I love
being a Franciscan, is that to us, there is no
stranger. We are all brother and sister. So again,
Stephen, thank you very much. I wish you and
I wish all our listeners a very blessed Franciscan
month. Don't hesitate. Franciscan month ought
to work, certainly. Perfect. Thank you, Brother
Greg. Bye -bye. Once again, that was Brother
Greg Cellini. I've linked to his book, Transform
Yourself, Transform the World, in the show notes
of this episode. It is available on Tao Publishing's
website. And I've also linked to his radio show,
Thank God for Monday, thankgodformonday .com,
as well as his new project, Franciscan Month,
franciscanmonth .org, in the show notes as well.
Huge thanks to Brother Greg for sharing his beautiful
story on this episode. And thanks to you, as
always, for your support of Off the Page. This
is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all
good, and happy Franciscan Month. I will lead
you into the desert with me and tenderly speak
to your...