Welcome to Off The Page, it's great to be with
you. There's a quote that hangs in my bedroom
from Thomas Merton and the quote reads, let us
come alive to the splendor that is all around
us and see the beauty in ordinary things. This
is its own daily invitation to me and one that
I frankly do not always accept. For most, I think,
the busyness of life and work, family, commitments,
our ever -lengthening to -do lists, they can
sweep us into a lifestyle of frantic doing and
accomplishing that can lead to, as the popular
saying goes, forgetting to stop and smell the
roses. And in this doing, I've noticed, at least
in my own life, that wonder and praise can sometimes
take a back seat as i become hyper focused on
what needs to be done i have a feeling that the
merton quote hanging in my bedroom will remain
there for a long time because practicing presence
is a lifelong journey but What a wonderful journey
it is, as our awareness for divine goodness and
beauty and grace deepens and expands within us,
and as our desires become channeled in a way
that leads us toward true joy and true peace.
There's a book that recently came out. that addresses
this exact topic, and it's called The Holy Ordinary,
A Way to God, and it was released about a year
ago, in October 2024, by Monkfish Publishing.
Its author is Mark Longhurst, today's guest on
Off the Page. Mark is a writer, an ordinary mystic,
and member of the new monastic community of the
Incarnation. He works as the publications manager
at the Center for Action and Contemplation, and
he's a former pastor who served United Church
of Christ churches for 10 years and worked as
a faith -based social justice activist in the
Boston area for 10 more years. A graduate of
Harvard Divinity School and a longtime yoga practitioner,
Mark lives in western Massachusetts with his
family. This conversation was wonderful, and
I cannot recommend Mark's book, The Holy Ordinary,
enough. Available wherever books are sold. So,
without further ado, here is my conversation
with Mark Longhurst. Enjoy. Mark Longhurst, welcome
to the Off the Page podcast. Thanks for having
me, Stephen. I'm delighted to be here. Yeah,
I really appreciate you taking the time. Your
wonderful book, The Holy Ordinary, the subtitle
is A Way to God. It came out last October. What
led you to write this book and what kind of spirituality
does this book invite readers to consider? What
led me to write this book was my own quest to
be on a... deep path of spiritual transformation
and contemplative practice, but to have a job
and have kids. And so this book is really me
trying to make sense of it all. What type of
theology is helpful for folks like me trying
to live this type of life, and what type of practical
spirituality does that involve? And so these
are short reflections that really took Another
thing people sometimes ask is, well, what was
it like writing a book? And I was like, well,
it took about 10 years. Because these are short
reflections, some of them adapted from various
articles or talks that I've, you know, I was
a pastor for 10 years, sermons and such, biblical
study. And when you have a job and kids, It's
hard to find sustained time to work on big projects
like that. So I was on the 10 -year plan of publishing
my first book is what I like to say. That's one
of my favorite things about the book. It's almost
like a compilation of essays. Sorry if that sounds
like it's cheapening it at all, but you could
read it as a devotional every morning, as I did
as I was reading it, just to help get you centered.
It reminded myself of a lot of truths that I
tend to neglect. I'll be honest. Part of my draw
to this book is my own personal struggle. You
hit on it. A lot of days, I just feel frantic,
always off from one thing to the next. I've mentioned
on the podcast before, I have a three -year -old
and a one -year -old. I hate to say it, but there
are more days than I'd like to admit that I'm
tired from work, I'm tired from coaching, you
know, the stress of this or that. And I'm just
trying to get them to bed. I'm just trying to
get them to bed. And I'm missing out on some
of those ordinary moments. And that's not to
beat myself up. But it's just name the landscape
that I think a lot of listeners may relate to
is that the holy ordinary is right there, but
it's difficult sometimes to get out of that kind
of frantic sense. So can you speak to that a
little bit? I know that was a big inspiration
for you in writing the book as someone who was
juggling a lot of things. One thing I like to
also say is that this book is an aspiration and
not a fully lived reality. And maybe it won't
ever be. And I say that because I'm the same
way. You know, I wake up and immediately it's
like, what do I have to do? What's the list?
How do I get the kids out of the door to get
them wherever they're supposed to be? And shoot,
maybe I'm going to try to squeeze a run or a
workout in. darn it, that didn't work. And, and,
and, and the day hits me like a, sometimes a
fast train and it's off and running. And then,
and then it's over and I'm tired or I've drank
too much coffee and I just want to watch Netflix
and go to bed. How do we create time to really
be present? How do we create time and awareness
to recognize a deeper dimension of life that
is underneath and really holding all of it? I'm
convinced that my capacity to touch back into
that deeper reality is really integral to how
I show up in the world with my wife and with
my kids in the workplace. And so it's an ongoing
quest. And this book is a part of that ongoing
quest to touch back into that deeper life. But
it's a struggle, an aspiration. And I think...
And really, the other thing I would say is it
feels... to me, not like I'm charting uncharted
territory, but this question of how do we do
this feels historically new to me. Because a
lot of the folks who've written about mysticism
and contemplation have come out of monastic traditions.
And we're in this thrilling, exciting time where
the riches of the contemplative, historic contemplative
traditions are really available to... to everyone,
including parents, that, you know, we could never
join a monastery, you know, we could never, and
who could go on, you know, month -long retreats
or six -month pilgrimages. Some of us are fortunate
enough to be able to do stuff like that, and
that's a growing practice. But it seems like
we're living in this exciting time in which these
riches of spiritual depth from various contemplative
monastic traditions are no longer behind cloistered
gates. They are available to parents. They're
available to people with busy jobs. And it feels
like a little bit of uncharted work to me to
really wrestle with. So what does that all mean
in lived reality for busy people who don't want
to give up on the depth of the spiritual life?
Yes. And so that's part of my exploration here,
too, is I'm not convinced that we can't have
that. and taste that depth too it's it's right
in the midst of the chaos it's not separate from
the chaos and and that's a wisdom nugget that
i think is true uh and a and a paradox for us
to explore and live into absolutely yeah you
you've mentioned depth you've mentioned awareness
to a deeper reality can you put some more language
around that like what is this deeper reality
that we are trying feels like striving but really
it's opening your eyes to what's already true
like what what is this deeper reality we're invited
to experience even in the busyness yes well i
think it's as simple as taking a breath right
now Because I'm already off on the freight train
of my day and then coming back to just a place
of awareness in my body. What am I feeling? What
am I thinking? And returning to the present moment,
returning to my physical sensations and what's
right in front of me. And then I could put some
theology around it, you know. But that's what
it is. It's returning and receiving the moment.
And I think that's what Jesus helps us do. I
think that's what many of the mystics help us
do, is to, as one teacher, Jim Finley, puts it,
place ourselves in a posture of least resistance
to grace. So how can I show up where I'm least
resistant to that divine inflow of grace that's
always around me, always around me? And you're
right. We can use words like trying, but it's
not. It's ultimately a letting go. So any practices,
and it might be fun to talk about the role of
contemplative practice and spiritual discipline
alongside. the tension of this letting go and,
and receiving of grace. Uh, but really it's a
receiving of grace. And sometimes when I sit
down to do my morning meditation, um, I'll, I'll
receive that grace. And sometimes I don't, and
I receive it while I'm just washing the dishes
or picking up the kids or having just a conversation
with my wife or I'm walking my dog or I'm out
in the yard. So it's, it's both. And I would
say. On page 69 of his book, The Holy Ordinary,
Mark Longhurst writes, quote, people who discover
the holy ordinary are people who allow wonder
and praise to sing through their lives. My son,
he recently learned to ride his bike without
training wheels. And so we've been visiting a
trail nearby that goes alongside a river close
to our house. And he enjoys riding his bike and
I enjoy running alongside him and getting a little
workout in. And the other day we went to the
trail and my son immediately noticed that some
of the leaves from the trees had begun to fall
on the path. And as he biked and as I ran, And
he kept wanting to stop and pick up the leaves,
especially Spider -Man leaves, he calls them,
which are simply red. He's obsessed with Spider
-Man, so if anything's red, he describes it as
Spider -Man. And I'll be honest, I mean, I found
myself a little aggravated. I had a run to complete,
right? I needed to get my heart rate up. I needed
to get my miles in. All these things kind of
going through my mind. And that was one of the
objectives of going on the trail in my mind was
to kill two birds with one stone. I could do
something that I loved run and he could do something
that he loved bike without his training wheels.
And even better, we got to do these things together,
but stopping every 50 feet or so to pick up leaves
was not something that I expected. It's. Funny,
isn't it, how linear we can become in our own
thinking. Even that notion of killing two birds
with one stone is all tied up in the American
ideal and idol, I'd say, of productivity. We
were on the trail and there was a clear goal,
clear purpose in my mind. But meanwhile, it was
my son's wonder and praise that was singing through
his life, as goes the quote from Mark's wonderful
book, that was inviting me to become more childlike
in my own disposition as well. And so maybe I
didn't handle things the way I wanted to that
time, but I think next time I'm going to try
to remain more open to the fact that my heart
rate may not increase as I had hoped. but that
it might expand nonetheless in this practicing
of presence. Now back to the conversation. But
would you explain receiving grace as essentially
being aware of the blessed reality that you're
experiencing or like, how would, how would you,
how would you define that? Good question. For
me, receiving grace is getting out of the way
to taste the, the Holy ordinary, the re the sacred
reality. that is always present the deeper dimension
of life that is that is life and but i don't
want to also say that my awareness that that
that that that my awareness of it is dependent
on even feeling it or experiencing it because
it is It is. And sometimes, and it's holding
me, whether I'm aware of it or not, and whether
I'm participating with it or not. And I think
part for me, part of the contemplative invitation
is to ask, how can I place myself in that posture
of being aware of it, of participating with it,
of receiving it as much as possible while being
faithful to my life responsibilities. And so
I think of, I've got a really beautiful yard
and there's a little creek that runs near our
house. We've got a couple of chairs out there.
And so sometimes my wife and I will go sit out
there or I'll go sit out there. And the stream
The water is so just incessant. And it's not
a fast brook. It's just a trickle. Sometimes
if it rains, it's faster. And on the other side
of our house is a busy road with a lot of cars.
But if I go out there and listen to that brook,
I can't hear the cars. Or I might be aware of
the cars, but they don't seem to matter. So I
just use that as a... as a metaphor for tapping
in to what is that deeper stream of God, divinity,
love, grace, however we want to describe it,
holiness. Yeah, you're bringing up something
really important, I think, because when I first
began kind of venturing into this mystical contemplative
path, there was part of me... that was, that
kind of correlated mysticism contemplation with
like this kind of blissful euphoria that, you
know, in the Franciscan space, like you think
of St. Francis of Assisi and brother, son, sister
moon, like frolicking, like through the fields
and, you know, like this, this divine oneness
with God and pure happiness. And, and in my experience,
and I'm sure it's different for everyone, but
in my experience, The contemplative way it feels
sometimes there, there are those real blissful
moments of connectivity, you know, like the other
day I was giving my kids a bath and I was checked
out. I wasn't present. I was thinking about something
at work, thinking about emails I needed to send.
And then I was just like, Hey, do what you just
said. Like, Hey, let's pause. Let's like really.
And then I became aware of all the hilarious
things my son was saying. So sometimes there
are those moments where it does come rushing
in and you're like, gosh dang it, life is so
beautiful. But then there are other moments where
for me, it feels more like emptiness in the sense
that... Maybe you're next to a creek that you're
talking about or listening to the ocean or just
sitting in your office in the silence. And I
guess I would explain emptiness as letting go
of all these things that I'm trying to control.
And that's a disorienting kind of thing. It is
freeing. It is liberating in a sense. However,
it's disorienting. I don't know. Are we kind
of hitting on the same thing or what would you
add to this notion of emptiness and letting go
in contemplation? Well, that's good stuff. Yeah,
for me, that letting go is a place of grace and
emptiness. So it doesn't mean I'm feeling grace
or feeling blissful, but that emptiness, and
I guess that's part of my Christian faith, which
is that the emptiness has... a personal depth
to it of love. Uh, and at the center of the universe
is love is part of my, uh, belief, uh, and, uh,
and, and so if I, so that emptiness is a letting
go of, could be thoughts, could, it could be
obsessions, could be, uh, um, to -do lists and,
and Just awareness, just present moment. However,
I do want to put in this conversation, it's not
separate from suffering. And because I think
in contemplative... speak, we could also bypass
suffering and say, oh, the holy ordinary is whenever
it's blissful and happy. And I don't think that's
the case at all. I think that the holy ordinary
is in the midst, right smack dab in the midst
of all the suffering, all the grief, all the
pain. And even paradoxically, in our lack of
experience of it. So it could be, the emptiness
is, I want to experience God's love or God's
grace, and I'm not experiencing it. That too
is, and this is John of the cross, the dark night
of the soul, that too is a graced experience
in this bigger sense of participating in that
emptiness, which is also love. So that dark night
of the soul is a very important contemplative
teaching for me. I think of my own periods of
depression when I was younger. I think of anxiety.
I think also of just the tremendous amount of
suffering that the world is facing. And I don't
want to live a privileged contemplative life.
insular, that is separate from or disconnected
from the catastrophe of climate change, the catastrophe
of, I'm going to say, genocide in Gaza. And it
has to all be connected. And that's really important
for me, because if it's not connected to uh,
to the suffering and the real oppression that
is happening in the world, then I don't know
what it's, I don't know what it's for. I don't
know how it matters other than to just make me
feel better, um, and get through the day. And
that I'm convinced is not the gospel of Jesus.
Yeah, no, that, that's a great, um, that's a
great segue as well. I mean, you, you write on
page 29 that contemplation is all about how one
sees and shows up to reality and then you continue
later on if as thomas merton intuited the world
is not out there but in my deepest self then
contemplation is not a flight from the world
but flight to the heart of the world which is
what you're getting at and then you continue
which is at the very same time the heart of god
so can you go a little bit deeper into that idea
of showing up to reality that is not centered
on myself, but is actually connected to. all
that is around me to the sufferings on the other
side of the world to um yeah you're going in
that direction but that is that is a profound
concept that because i last this is the last
thing i'll say like contemplation i think it
gets a bad rap because it at its worst it becomes
like narcissistic yes and merton's writing sometimes
feel that way where it's like I mean, I'm very
grateful for him, but it's like, dude, you are
like just writing almost obsessively about like
your own interior landscape. But then his whole,
the whole architecture of his writing is it does.
He, he, he does not write as if he's a monk cloistered
from the world. Right. He writes as if he's living
in the middle of New York city because he's so
in touch with the sufferings of the world. So
all that to say anything you would have to add
there. Yeah, Thomas Marin is such a great example
of this, because I also think his relentless
quest for self -knowledge and viewing his own
life as a laboratory of contemplation and his
willingness to write about that and share his
journals. I can't prove this. I'm not a Merton
scholar, but I want to say that it's connected
to his ability to write about nuclear war, racism,
and nonviolence, and to do so with such depth
and precision that we can read it decades later.
And it feels somehow still relevant, even though
some aspects of it might be outdated. He touched
on a reality that feels deeply true and almost
timeless, which is... I mean, that we got to
live in the previous century of such a person.
The other thing I would say is, you know, I would
hope that this quest would open me up to it would.
would sensitize me, would somehow lead me to
solidarity with people who are suffering in my
own community and across the world. Hopefully
that takes place in certain actions. Sometimes
I experience more often the limitations of what
I'm able to do. I feel passionate about any number
of issues of marginalization and suffering, and
I'm more aware of... my, my powerlessness in
certain areas. Uh, but hopefully it will crack
my heart open to, to the interconnectedness of
suffering. And, and I think somehow that I'm
just thinking of like, like a SIM, like a simple
example of, of having a conversation with my
wife and she brings up a re you know, a response
that is different from me. And, and I could defend
and try to be right, but there's something in
the contemplative posture, and my therapist would
be really happy that I'm saying this, that leads
me outside of myself. Say, what am I feeling?
What's my feeling? But also, what are you feeling?
And what is your reality? And that this life
is full of mutuality and relationship. And so
I want to be present to my wife, to my kids,
empathetic in that way that comes alongside and
suffers with them. And that also that's not separate
from... the rest of the world's suffering either.
It doesn't mean that me, you, any of us are called
to do all things, but that somehow we are not
shut down, that somehow we are reading the headlines
and our hearts are breaking too. And we're not
letting it crush us. We might go through periods
where we are crushed of grief, where we lose
somebody, or we go through an illness. But we
are also tied in and tapping in to the joy and
the seasonal nature of that holiness, which encapsulates.
the dark night and its depth, its suffering,
but also its delight and its bliss and its joy.
So not bliss that bypasses, but bliss that still
is bliss. And that is because life is amazing.
Even though, you know, as Wendell Berry said,
even though, choose joy, even though you've considered
all the facts. Something like that in one of
his great poems. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, man. Yeah.
There, there's a lot there. Um, yeah. Well, one
basic question I had was, would you, would you
say that at the heart of reality that we are
invited to experience or become aware of is holiness?
And then if so, what is holiness? Wow. That's
a great question. Yes, but I think how I understand
holiness is very different from how I might have
grown up. I grew up in an evangelical tradition,
and I'm very grateful for that tradition, teaching
me the Bible, creating passion for the gospel.
And holiness, how I learned about it, was separate.
Same, yeah. division. It's holy when it's, you
know, I don't know if any of the listeners or
you're familiar with the Christian contemporary
music scene, but I grew up listening, you know,
and I remember dc talk news boys audio adrenaline
you want me to keep going okay you know oh yeah
i saw all those guys in concert but i remember
going to a youth conference and i think i write
about this in the book uh i remember going to
a youth conference and and i and i was listening
to pearl jam and nine inch nails and all these
bands and then um And then I went to the conference.
I went to some workshop and I was like very passionate
about my faith. And they were using all my tapes
by then. So that dates my age in my 40s. But
all my tapes were like being used as examples
of the satanic music, of what not to listen to,
what's not holy, what's not sacred. It's been
a real quest for me to understand holiness in
a way that leads to union, to one sacred reality,
that holiness is actually eradicating the divisions.
And it doesn't mean that there's not systems
of evil and oppression. And it doesn't mean we're
not smart and discerning about all that stuff.
But it means that it is one reality that holiness
is wholeness and not be ye holy as separate from
the rest of the world. As Merton says, the world
has a place at the center of my being as well.
I'm not separate from the world. Yeah. Yeah,
that's such an important concept that you're
diving into. Because I do think that when most
people hear the word holy, at least for me for
a long time with my own evangelical background,
the thing that ran through my mind was, be better.
You need to be better. You either need to I've
mentioned this before, but on the podcast, but
it's like you either need to stop doing what
you're doing or start doing something that you're
not doing. Like it was always tied to in. And
why? Why should you do that? Well, because there's
separation between you and this ultimate deity
who is perfectly holy. And then that's how you
get into judgment, which leads to self judgment,
which leads to a very low, um, view of oneself
and a frail identity. Uh, I mean there, but what
you're saying, and just let me know if I'm tracking
or not, but holiness is unitive to, to enter
into the holy ordinary or opening one's senses
to experiencing the holy ordinary. becoming aware
of you're becoming aware of the one the depth
and beauty of life but also your own connection
to everyone and everything in this world am i
am i tracking there or what would you add yeah
i would say that holiness is unitive well and
From a mystical perspective, that the mystics
lead us towards a unitive vision of interconnection,
you know, and it's not to... glamorize the mystics
either, you know, that sort of bugs me, you know,
read about the mystics were so enlightened. They
had their stuff too. They're all in their culture.
They struggled with their, you know, their own
time and, you know, limitations. But there's
a unitive vision that it is one world, one holy
sacred world. And we're all a part of it. It's
a mutual relationship at the heart of reality
with god and people and the earth and how cool
is that and and that that is so that's been so
liberating for me in in discovering my own uh
my own spiritual quest and theological exploration
um and one thing that i heard you say is this
that There's a certain version of holiness where
it says, I'm supposed to live separate and do
better, and God is separate too. Yes. I think
this, however I want to say, mystical contemplative
holiness means God is not separate either. And
I don't have to do better. I mean, doing better
is great. I hope we all can do better. But it's
not in a striving way. It's just in a... in a
participation way. So, so because God is not
separate from these, this web of relationship
either. God is not separate from that, from me
sitting outside in, by my stream. And God is
not separate when I'm having a disagreement with
my wife or a kid is having a really hard time
and we're, and it's getting tense, uh, or I'm
in a traffic jam or, and I'm late for something.
God is not separate from my experience, from
the world's experience. And that means that we
don't have to be separate from God. And we don't
have to do better so much as we have to. And
I don't even want to say we have to. It's less
about doing better than just receiving. On page
51 of his book, The Holy Ordinary, Mark Longhurst
writes, This notion of what ancient Celts called
thin places has been a topic that has intrigued
me for years now. And I think it has captivated
me because it's such a challenge. I remember
realizing I was in a thin place years ago when
a mentor took me to a hole -in -the -wall music
bar in Charlotte, North Carolina for the first
time called the Double Door Inn. I wasn't sure
what to expect when he took me. I didn't know
much about blues or soul at the time. I did not
like jazz. But I quickly learned that the inside
of the place was pure magic. It was perhaps my
first experience with a contemplative kind of
seeing, at least one that I could name, and it
really felt as if in this place I was seeing
reality as it is. When I learned that it was
going to be closing, I decided to go several
times a month its final year and write a book
about the spiritual truths that I and its patrons
found in this thin, unassuming place. I think
or hope at least that it will always be a symbol
for me of the potentiality and thinness that
can exist in the ordinary, in the spaces or places
that I pass by or pass through, thinking there's
nothing there to experience or enjoy. As Thomas
Merton famously wrote, the gate of heaven is
everywhere. Now back to the conversation. Yeah,
because in that receiving of grace, then the
fountain of grace and beauty and goodness is
kind of flowing through you. Like you said, you're
participating. That's a great word. You mentioned,
we've hit on this a couple times, you've hit
on your own journey. Can you dive into your spiritual
quest a little bit? It shows up throughout your
book. You mentioned all the nine -inch nails.
Didn't you burn those CDs or tapes or something?
Yeah. How did you end up arriving at the mystics
and then contemplation? I'm very curious about
how you found yourself in this space. Thanks
for that question. Well, just... One door led
to another. One question led to another. One
experience led to another. One person led to
another. I grew up as a pastor's kid in rural
Michigan, evangelical, as I mentioned earlier.
And I really spanned the gamut, went to an evangelical
college, actually went to a fundamentalist. school
for missionary kids in Germany. I've seen a whole
spectrum of Christian denominations, Christian
experiences. I went to Harvard Divinity School,
which was a place of real deep ecumenism and
interfaith and folks from all walks of life there
where I got to meet and study. learn from, which
was very helpful and eye -opening, heart -expanding.
I went to a charismatic church for a while, so
I've spent time in the charismatic movement a
little bit, but then I... I became ordained in
the Disciples of Christ denomination first, and
then with the United Church of Christ, served
United Church of Christ churches, really because
it was a big enough umbrella to hold my questions
and my political convictions of social justice
and to live that out. I have found... But the
mystical quest, I didn't really find it in the
UCC. I didn't find it in evangelicalism. I found
it through discovering the work of Richard Rohr
in the Center for Action Contemplation, which
is where I now work. And really just going on
various retreats and reading books and going
to conferences. And that opened up my theological
mind. I started a meditation practice with not
a lot of guidance. And I kind of was just on
my own trying to do this for a while and finding
like -spirited people wherever I could. So, oh,
you're a pastor in the UCC and you're into centering
prayer too. Oh my gosh, you're learning Lectio
Divina too. Let's talk. That's so cool. I really
didn't have a community in which to practice
or live this out, which is why I'm so passionate
about a community that I'm a part of called the
Community of the Incarnation, which is, and there's
a nonprofit umbrella called the Center for Spiritual
Imagination, which is a vowed path, which offers
multiple ways to get involved and be on a contemplative
journey in community. But it's a... a path of
deep commitment for people like me, like you
who are. who have jobs and are seeking a contemplative
life in the chaos of the world, amidst the chaos
of the world, and are not able to live a cloistered
life, but are seeking that heart of integration
of contemplation and chaos or whatever the right
word is. And so that's been really helpful to
me in the last several years is really realizing,
you know, it's one thing to read books. to do
a practice on my own. It's one thing to even
go on retreats. And it's one thing to have a
spiritual director. But really, and this is what
really animates me, is I think forms of community
and accountability are really needed to help
folks like me live this life with integrity and
accountability. I really think that this is a
deep path that brings up all our junk. And if
we're not in therapy, we're not in spiritual
direction, we're not in some community, then
the risk of bypass is very great. And the risk
of even... Talking about contemplation in a disembodied,
inauthentic way is very great. And that also
leads to, in my opinion, to a disconnection from
the suffering of the world and from injustice
and oppressions happening right next door in
my community. So does that make sense? I'm happy
to go in any of those directions. I don't know
if I, I probably gave a lot of stuff up. No,
absolutely. It's a beautiful journey you've been
on. And yeah, didn't Merton say something one
time along the lines of like, hey, just because
you're an introvert doesn't mean you're a contemplative.
Exactly. Just because you've read contemplative
books, it does not. And I've had to learn this
because just because I've, because I read them
all, read all the books. I read all the Thomas
Keating, Cynthia Bourgeau, Richard Rohr books.
I've read them all. Thomas Merton. And then I've
started studying Julie. of Norwich, John of the
Cross. These are my heroes. But just because
I've read books, it does not mean anything. It
might mean I can talk cool theology, but it does
not mean anything in terms of my lived experience
unless I am able to integrate that in some way.
And I was not able to, just as I look back on
my own life, been on this path for years. quite
a long time now. I don't think I was able to
integrate that in a helpful, accountable way
really until I was in a community, whether that
was just a couple of people or this more established,
structured community. We have our collective
rule of life together. We do work through the
12 steps on a regular basis. So that's what I
mean in terms of holding the feet to the fire
of what it really means to be alive to this this
reality of life yeah yeah you i appreciate you
bringing it back to lived experience um i'm just
wondering to make this uber practical for listeners
and then for us as well in dialogue with one
another is Is there something recently in your
life where you've experienced the wholly ordinary
and the mundane? Anything come to mind? Sorry
to put you on the spot. Of course. Well, so many.
Yeah. Let me pause for a minute so I could just...
You know, what comes to mind is just having a
conversation with my wife last night. And I got
defensive about something. But instead of...
Instead of working with reaction, I was able
to take a breath, to feel what I was feeling.
And we were able to really have a beautiful conversation
and exchange that took us somewhere deeper. So
it's as simple as that. It's as simple as working
with my defenses and reactions and my connection
to what I'm feeling and what's happening in my
body. On page 82 of his book, The Holy Ordinary,
Mark Longhurst writes, quote, to pay attention
to margins. is to pay attention to how boundary
lines are constructed in our world and our lives,
and then to cross those boundaries. The psyche
draws boundaries around what it is willing to
face, so exploring unconscious desires through
shadow work is a way of welcoming the Holy Spirit
into our inner margins. One of the many things
I really appreciated about Mark's book is how
real it is. There are so many spiritual gurus
today, both secular and religious, who tend to
promise wholeness and completeness if people
follow them or their protocols or their steps
or whatever it may be. And this, I think I can
say, is not the contemplative or mystical path.
Mark, in his book and in this conversation, reminds
us that the holy ordinary also exists within
the parts of ourselves that we dare not go. I
love St. Teresa of Avila's metaphor for the soul
being an interior castle. I've often thought
of the shadowed hallways and dark corners of
my own interior castle, spaces within that may
require spending some time there. Curiously,
I should add, gently, empathetically, in order
for the light to permeate even those far off
places I fear, or as Mark wrote, may not even
realize that I fear or have been avoiding these
boundary places within. On page 39, Mark continues,
mystics happen to be my heroes, but not in the
unapproachable sense. Rather, mystics are meant
to remind us of our heart's own capacity. The
contemplative path, as Mark explains, invites
an awareness of our own heart's capacity. I love
that. But often this requires welcoming the Holy
Spirit into our own inner. margins yeah well
i i appreciate that you shared a moment that
um is maybe this is too severe of language but
it you know there's like some chaos there there's
some conflict there there's there there are difficult
things rising up within you as you're having
this exchange i mean i i just think it's a beautiful
example of like hey this is this invitation in
your book is to everything, you know, and sometimes
beauty comes bursting through into your world
and you're invited to open up your senses and
really enjoy that. And, but then most of the
time it's more complex than that. Um, and, and
one thing that we haven't gotten into that I
would like to, uh, before we part ways in. And
I think this is related, but in part five of
your book transformations, you talk about our
insatiable want for more. Yes. And I just think
of like our attention economy. And like the other
day I keep going back to giving my kids a bath
because that's like my one time with them during
the work week where it's just me and them. And
like the other day I caught myself just like
scrolling through Twitter. you know as i'm and
it's like but i don't know like they're and again
i'm not i'm not beating myself up because it's
a long day like you you need to have these you
do need to have these outlets of like okay i'm
just going to kind of numb a little bit and take
a deep breath and however That's true more often
in my life than I would like it to be. And there
is this attention economy of where these things
are always pulling at you. And that makes a contemplative
path very difficult. Yes. And this is where desire
comes in. It kind of, at least for me, it clouds
my desire. And it's like, well, you think that
you just want to numb your mind. But actually,
you're desiring something deeper here. Any thoughts
there when it comes to desire, contemplation?
Yeah. Oh, gosh. I'm so glad you picked up on
that chapter. I'm really passionate about this,
and I actually view it as really central to contemplative
transformation. Growing in God and folks in the
mystical tradition all the way back to origin
have really said it is what you do with your
desire. And this is also one reason I love the
12 steps because the 12 steps are a proven mechanism,
model. that gives tools to work with our addictive
desires. And I use addictive in a larger frame
because we're all addicted. We're addicted to
our thinking. I'm addicted to being right, to
checking my phone, to any number of things. So
we're all addicted. And the quest for more creates
addiction culture. We're addicted to fossil fuels.
We could talk about this on global scale and
deeply personal scale. So interrupting... And
channeling desire in the proper way. And what
I mean is, I'm thinking one of my favorite theologians,
her name is Sarah Coakley. She talks about the
right reordering of desire towards God. It doesn't
mean desire is wrong. You know, we could have
a whole conversation about evangelical repression
of sexuality and desire. Desire is not wrong,
but... But desire, if it's only more, will lead
to addiction and more suffering. And so part
of the contemplative path is to redirect desire,
to affirm desire, to celebrate desire and redirect
it to God, to its proper... to, to limitations
and its simplicity to, uh, not to re not regulation
of desire, but, um, but boundaries of desire.
And, uh, and in, in those boundaries, you know,
uh, um, it's as simple as, gosh, I really have
a sugar tooth and like, I can binge cereal. Like,
like you don't know, but like, it doesn't feel
good when I do that. Oh, that's awesome. I love
that. Yeah. So there's gotta be a boundary. It's
like, maybe just one, you know? Yeah. Oh my gosh,
man. Yeah. That correlation between, I mean,
yeah, even going back to my example, it's what
I'm, what I'm craving when I'm doom scrolling
is rest. Yes. You know, that's what I'm craving
is in, in not only rest, but a detachment from
the loops that have been going in my mind that
day. So, so I'm trying, I'm trying to disconnect.
I'm trying to find rest. And, but then I put
my phone down. Like that's the other part of
the story. Like I put my phone down during this
time I did, I don't do that all the time, but
this time I did. And I found a sense of rest
through my children. And I was going to be there
with them anyway. So why not be present with
them? You know what I'm saying? So there's like
a, am I tracking with you? There's like a deeper
desire there. But you need the contemplative
path to help you to become aware of the deep
things in your heart that are calling out to
you. Am I? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know,
people are on different paths. Everybody's exploring
this in different ways. And so I'm not claiming
to. have the right way. Um, but, but what has
been really helpful for me is to, is to commit
to a rule of life, uh, in community that has
shared, shared prayer practices that we commit
to each day. It doesn't mean we fulfill them
perfectly, but it's saying like, I want this
to be a container in which I live my life. And
when I do an evening prayer or a compliment and,
and a very short examine, uh, it, I binge less
TV right before I go to bed. And I rest, my body
rests because there's unmetabolized. And you
binge less cereal. Yeah. And I binge, well, nighttime
is the cereal binging time or the extra beer
or whatever, you know? Yeah. So it's, so it's,
for me, it's that examine practice and an evening
prayer practice. And I, I, I'm like often I could
really start off, feel connected, like chant
a. couple of Psalms in the morning, do a meditation,
but as the day goes by, so that evening practice
has really, and that's where I'm working right
now. Cause sometimes I, I often forget and I
love TV and movies. So like, don't, you know,
we taught, we could talk about the sacredness
of that, but, but, but there's also an escapism
and a need to rest of, of scrolling and just
getting on our phones. And I just want to, I
just want, but when I do an examine practice,
and or evening, a short evening prayer, it helps
me metabolize the day. And by which I mean, it
helps me catch up, my body and my feelings catch
up with my awareness. That's a great way to put
it. And then I can feel my body settle. It's
like, oh, I'm settling now. okay, I can, I can
show up, you know, or I can go to bed, you know,
but I could be present to my kids and do bedtime
with a little less checked outness, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's beautiful, Mark. I do
want to be respectful of your time. I know we're
coming up on the hour. Is there anything we left
out, anything you wanted to hit on? And then
also final question. What would you offer to
listeners here for experiencing the holy ordinary?
Oh, gosh. Well, you asked such great questions.
It's just fun to be in dialogue with you, Stephen,
as a co -explorer of this path. Yeah, it's been
a joy. I can't think of anything off the top
of my head, but what I've found is we each have
something that, helps us settle and discover
that depth. And so there's formal practices,
which I'm a big fan of. And I really think it's,
I mean, not to be too... you know, dogmatic,
but I really think it's actually necessary to
have some structured practices. Uh, but then
there's those practices or just things that we
enjoy. It's, it's like playing basketball with
the kids going for me, it's going to the movies
at where I just, I, I, my body settles and I'm
like, Oh my gosh, this isn't this great. And,
uh, so I think it's a balance of, of finding.
finding something in the flow of life that really
helps that, that, that really connect going on
walks with, with a friend, coffee with a friend,
whatever it is, walking the dog, playing with
the kids. But then also marrying that with, with
some, some, some commitments and practices. That's
what's been helpful for me. Well, awesome. I
think it's a wonderful invitation to our listeners
and to myself as well. I think I'll. doom scroll
a little bit less today. But thanks for coming
on the podcast, Mark. This has been such a joy.
Thanks for having me, Stephen. What a gift. Once
again, that was Mark Longhurst, author of The
Holy Ordinary, available wherever books are sold.
I've linked to the show notes in the description
of this episode, and I hope that you enjoyed
this conversation as much as I did. Huge thanks
to Mark for joining me on Off the Page and to
Father Cyprian Concilio for providing the music
for this episode. May you experience and enjoy
the Holy Ordinary today and this week. This is
Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all good.
the desert with me and tenderly speak to your
heart.