WEBVTT 00:00:07.779 --> 00:00:09.880 Welcome to Off The Page, it's great to be with 00:00:09.880 --> 00:00:12.699 you. There's a quote that hangs in my bedroom 00:00:12.699 --> 00:00:15.839 from Thomas Merton and the quote reads, let us 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:18.379 come alive to the splendor that is all around 00:00:18.379 --> 00:00:23.059 us and see the beauty in ordinary things. This 00:00:23.059 --> 00:00:25.940 is its own daily invitation to me and one that 00:00:25.940 --> 00:00:30.390 I frankly do not always accept. For most, I think, 00:00:30.410 --> 00:00:33.929 the busyness of life and work, family, commitments, 00:00:34.049 --> 00:00:36.829 our ever -lengthening to -do lists, they can 00:00:36.829 --> 00:00:40.250 sweep us into a lifestyle of frantic doing and 00:00:40.250 --> 00:00:43.130 accomplishing that can lead to, as the popular 00:00:43.130 --> 00:00:46.149 saying goes, forgetting to stop and smell the 00:00:46.149 --> 00:00:49.990 roses. And in this doing, I've noticed, at least 00:00:49.990 --> 00:00:53.880 in my own life, that wonder and praise can sometimes 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:57.619 take a back seat as i become hyper focused on 00:00:57.619 --> 00:01:00.979 what needs to be done i have a feeling that the 00:01:00.979 --> 00:01:03.740 merton quote hanging in my bedroom will remain 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:07.739 there for a long time because practicing presence 00:01:07.739 --> 00:01:11.560 is a lifelong journey but What a wonderful journey 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.799 it is, as our awareness for divine goodness and 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:18.819 beauty and grace deepens and expands within us, 00:01:18.900 --> 00:01:21.739 and as our desires become channeled in a way 00:01:21.739 --> 00:01:25.060 that leads us toward true joy and true peace. 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:29.109 There's a book that recently came out. that addresses 00:01:29.109 --> 00:01:32.670 this exact topic, and it's called The Holy Ordinary, 00:01:32.870 --> 00:01:35.569 A Way to God, and it was released about a year 00:01:35.569 --> 00:01:39.329 ago, in October 2024, by Monkfish Publishing. 00:01:39.590 --> 00:01:43.590 Its author is Mark Longhurst, today's guest on 00:01:43.590 --> 00:01:47.790 Off the Page. Mark is a writer, an ordinary mystic, 00:01:47.790 --> 00:01:50.769 and member of the new monastic community of the 00:01:50.769 --> 00:01:54.500 Incarnation. He works as the publications manager 00:01:54.500 --> 00:01:57.280 at the Center for Action and Contemplation, and 00:01:57.280 --> 00:01:59.819 he's a former pastor who served United Church 00:01:59.819 --> 00:02:03.120 of Christ churches for 10 years and worked as 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:06.099 a faith -based social justice activist in the 00:02:06.099 --> 00:02:09.979 Boston area for 10 more years. A graduate of 00:02:09.979 --> 00:02:13.259 Harvard Divinity School and a longtime yoga practitioner, 00:02:13.780 --> 00:02:16.780 Mark lives in western Massachusetts with his 00:02:16.780 --> 00:02:20.300 family. This conversation was wonderful, and 00:02:20.300 --> 00:02:23.199 I cannot recommend Mark's book, The Holy Ordinary, 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:27.580 enough. Available wherever books are sold. So, 00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:30.879 without further ado, here is my conversation 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:41.199 with Mark Longhurst. Enjoy. Mark Longhurst, welcome 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:44.099 to the Off the Page podcast. Thanks for having 00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:46.879 me, Stephen. I'm delighted to be here. Yeah, 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:49.180 I really appreciate you taking the time. Your 00:02:49.180 --> 00:02:53.259 wonderful book, The Holy Ordinary, the subtitle 00:02:53.259 --> 00:02:57.560 is A Way to God. It came out last October. What 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:01.580 led you to write this book and what kind of spirituality 00:03:01.580 --> 00:03:06.800 does this book invite readers to consider? What 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:10.439 led me to write this book was my own quest to 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:14.900 be on a... deep path of spiritual transformation 00:03:14.900 --> 00:03:18.939 and contemplative practice, but to have a job 00:03:18.939 --> 00:03:22.419 and have kids. And so this book is really me 00:03:22.419 --> 00:03:25.139 trying to make sense of it all. What type of 00:03:25.139 --> 00:03:29.060 theology is helpful for folks like me trying 00:03:29.060 --> 00:03:32.199 to live this type of life, and what type of practical 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:37.020 spirituality does that involve? And so these 00:03:37.020 --> 00:03:41.169 are short reflections that really took Another 00:03:41.169 --> 00:03:44.689 thing people sometimes ask is, well, what was 00:03:44.689 --> 00:03:46.289 it like writing a book? And I was like, well, 00:03:46.430 --> 00:03:50.689 it took about 10 years. Because these are short 00:03:50.689 --> 00:03:54.189 reflections, some of them adapted from various 00:03:54.189 --> 00:03:56.710 articles or talks that I've, you know, I was 00:03:56.710 --> 00:04:01.129 a pastor for 10 years, sermons and such, biblical 00:04:01.129 --> 00:04:07.259 study. And when you have a job and kids, It's 00:04:07.259 --> 00:04:11.479 hard to find sustained time to work on big projects 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:14.979 like that. So I was on the 10 -year plan of publishing 00:04:14.979 --> 00:04:18.199 my first book is what I like to say. That's one 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:21.459 of my favorite things about the book. It's almost 00:04:21.459 --> 00:04:24.399 like a compilation of essays. Sorry if that sounds 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:26.740 like it's cheapening it at all, but you could 00:04:26.740 --> 00:04:32.560 read it as a devotional every morning, as I did 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:35.319 as I was reading it, just to help get you centered. 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:39.399 It reminded myself of a lot of truths that I 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:44.160 tend to neglect. I'll be honest. Part of my draw 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:48.350 to this book is my own personal struggle. You 00:04:48.350 --> 00:04:56.069 hit on it. A lot of days, I just feel frantic, 00:04:56.170 --> 00:05:00.930 always off from one thing to the next. I've mentioned 00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:02.870 on the podcast before, I have a three -year -old 00:05:02.870 --> 00:05:06.209 and a one -year -old. I hate to say it, but there 00:05:06.209 --> 00:05:11.029 are more days than I'd like to admit that I'm 00:05:11.420 --> 00:05:14.100 tired from work, I'm tired from coaching, you 00:05:14.100 --> 00:05:17.180 know, the stress of this or that. And I'm just 00:05:17.180 --> 00:05:19.540 trying to get them to bed. I'm just trying to 00:05:19.540 --> 00:05:22.199 get them to bed. And I'm missing out on some 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:24.100 of those ordinary moments. And that's not to 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:28.579 beat myself up. But it's just name the landscape 00:05:28.579 --> 00:05:30.800 that I think a lot of listeners may relate to 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:33.959 is that the holy ordinary is right there, but 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.920 it's difficult sometimes to get out of that kind 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.959 of frantic sense. So can you speak to that a 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.420 little bit? I know that was a big inspiration 00:05:42.420 --> 00:05:44.759 for you in writing the book as someone who was 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:49.259 juggling a lot of things. One thing I like to 00:05:49.259 --> 00:05:53.399 also say is that this book is an aspiration and 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:57.040 not a fully lived reality. And maybe it won't 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:02.000 ever be. And I say that because I'm the same 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.680 way. You know, I wake up and immediately it's 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:06.600 like, what do I have to do? What's the list? 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.839 How do I get the kids out of the door to get 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:11.699 them wherever they're supposed to be? And shoot, 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:13.500 maybe I'm going to try to squeeze a run or a 00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:18.319 workout in. darn it, that didn't work. And, and, 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:23.279 and, and the day hits me like a, sometimes a 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:27.600 fast train and it's off and running. And then, 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:32.100 and then it's over and I'm tired or I've drank 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:34.860 too much coffee and I just want to watch Netflix 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:40.300 and go to bed. How do we create time to really 00:06:40.300 --> 00:06:45.019 be present? How do we create time and awareness 00:06:45.019 --> 00:06:49.579 to recognize a deeper dimension of life that 00:06:49.579 --> 00:06:55.959 is underneath and really holding all of it? I'm 00:06:55.959 --> 00:07:00.660 convinced that my capacity to touch back into 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:05.300 that deeper reality is really integral to how 00:07:05.300 --> 00:07:07.579 I show up in the world with my wife and with 00:07:07.579 --> 00:07:13.360 my kids in the workplace. And so it's an ongoing 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:16.560 quest. And this book is a part of that ongoing 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:21.079 quest to touch back into that deeper life. But 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:24.519 it's a struggle, an aspiration. And I think... 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:28.480 And really, the other thing I would say is it 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:32.790 feels... to me, not like I'm charting uncharted 00:07:32.790 --> 00:07:35.889 territory, but this question of how do we do 00:07:35.889 --> 00:07:40.230 this feels historically new to me. Because a 00:07:40.230 --> 00:07:42.490 lot of the folks who've written about mysticism 00:07:42.490 --> 00:07:45.509 and contemplation have come out of monastic traditions. 00:07:45.850 --> 00:07:50.910 And we're in this thrilling, exciting time where 00:07:50.910 --> 00:07:55.329 the riches of the contemplative, historic contemplative 00:07:55.329 --> 00:07:58.899 traditions are really available to... to everyone, 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:01.360 including parents, that, you know, we could never 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:06.600 join a monastery, you know, we could never, and 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:09.639 who could go on, you know, month -long retreats 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.600 or six -month pilgrimages. Some of us are fortunate 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:15.579 enough to be able to do stuff like that, and 00:08:15.579 --> 00:08:19.230 that's a growing practice. But it seems like 00:08:19.230 --> 00:08:22.649 we're living in this exciting time in which these 00:08:22.649 --> 00:08:27.290 riches of spiritual depth from various contemplative 00:08:27.290 --> 00:08:30.949 monastic traditions are no longer behind cloistered 00:08:30.949 --> 00:08:33.629 gates. They are available to parents. They're 00:08:33.629 --> 00:08:37.509 available to people with busy jobs. And it feels 00:08:37.509 --> 00:08:43.470 like a little bit of uncharted work to me to 00:08:43.470 --> 00:08:47.870 really wrestle with. So what does that all mean 00:08:47.870 --> 00:08:54.009 in lived reality for busy people who don't want 00:08:54.009 --> 00:08:56.710 to give up on the depth of the spiritual life? 00:08:57.429 --> 00:09:01.950 Yes. And so that's part of my exploration here, 00:09:02.009 --> 00:09:06.990 too, is I'm not convinced that we can't have 00:09:06.990 --> 00:09:10.450 that. and taste that depth too it's it's right 00:09:10.450 --> 00:09:12.809 in the midst of the chaos it's not separate from 00:09:12.809 --> 00:09:16.210 the chaos and and that's a wisdom nugget that 00:09:16.210 --> 00:09:22.250 i think is true uh and a and a paradox for us 00:09:22.250 --> 00:09:25.850 to explore and live into absolutely yeah you 00:09:25.850 --> 00:09:29.990 you've mentioned depth you've mentioned awareness 00:09:29.990 --> 00:09:32.889 to a deeper reality can you put some more language 00:09:32.889 --> 00:09:36.070 around that like what is this deeper reality 00:09:36.070 --> 00:09:41.690 that we are trying feels like striving but really 00:09:41.690 --> 00:09:44.230 it's opening your eyes to what's already true 00:09:44.230 --> 00:09:46.929 like what what is this deeper reality we're invited 00:09:46.929 --> 00:09:51.990 to experience even in the busyness yes well i 00:09:51.990 --> 00:09:55.370 think it's as simple as taking a breath right 00:09:55.370 --> 00:09:59.429 now Because I'm already off on the freight train 00:09:59.429 --> 00:10:04.990 of my day and then coming back to just a place 00:10:04.990 --> 00:10:10.889 of awareness in my body. What am I feeling? What 00:10:10.889 --> 00:10:17.470 am I thinking? And returning to the present moment, 00:10:17.590 --> 00:10:22.190 returning to my physical sensations and what's 00:10:22.190 --> 00:10:25.990 right in front of me. And then I could put some 00:10:25.990 --> 00:10:29.769 theology around it, you know. But that's what 00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:33.350 it is. It's returning and receiving the moment. 00:10:33.649 --> 00:10:37.350 And I think that's what Jesus helps us do. I 00:10:37.350 --> 00:10:39.929 think that's what many of the mystics help us 00:10:39.929 --> 00:10:46.950 do, is to, as one teacher, Jim Finley, puts it, 00:10:47.009 --> 00:10:52.289 place ourselves in a posture of least resistance 00:10:52.289 --> 00:10:57.919 to grace. So how can I show up where I'm least 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:03.019 resistant to that divine inflow of grace that's 00:11:03.019 --> 00:11:07.679 always around me, always around me? And you're 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.340 right. We can use words like trying, but it's 00:11:11.340 --> 00:11:15.639 not. It's ultimately a letting go. So any practices, 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:18.600 and it might be fun to talk about the role of 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:21.860 contemplative practice and spiritual discipline 00:11:21.860 --> 00:11:25.309 alongside. the tension of this letting go and, 00:11:25.370 --> 00:11:28.429 and receiving of grace. Uh, but really it's a 00:11:28.429 --> 00:11:30.490 receiving of grace. And sometimes when I sit 00:11:30.490 --> 00:11:34.870 down to do my morning meditation, um, I'll, I'll 00:11:34.870 --> 00:11:37.690 receive that grace. And sometimes I don't, and 00:11:37.690 --> 00:11:40.070 I receive it while I'm just washing the dishes 00:11:40.070 --> 00:11:43.929 or picking up the kids or having just a conversation 00:11:43.929 --> 00:11:46.669 with my wife or I'm walking my dog or I'm out 00:11:46.669 --> 00:11:49.929 in the yard. So it's, it's both. And I would 00:11:49.929 --> 00:11:58.340 say. On page 69 of his book, The Holy Ordinary, 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:01.919 Mark Longhurst writes, quote, people who discover 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:04.960 the holy ordinary are people who allow wonder 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:10.059 and praise to sing through their lives. My son, 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.879 he recently learned to ride his bike without 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:15.759 training wheels. And so we've been visiting a 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:18.700 trail nearby that goes alongside a river close 00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:22.159 to our house. And he enjoys riding his bike and 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.639 I enjoy running alongside him and getting a little 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.200 workout in. And the other day we went to the 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:31.259 trail and my son immediately noticed that some 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:34.379 of the leaves from the trees had begun to fall 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:38.860 on the path. And as he biked and as I ran, And 00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:41.740 he kept wanting to stop and pick up the leaves, 00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:45.299 especially Spider -Man leaves, he calls them, 00:12:45.419 --> 00:12:48.480 which are simply red. He's obsessed with Spider 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.779 -Man, so if anything's red, he describes it as 00:12:52.779 --> 00:12:56.500 Spider -Man. And I'll be honest, I mean, I found 00:12:56.500 --> 00:13:00.919 myself a little aggravated. I had a run to complete, 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.799 right? I needed to get my heart rate up. I needed 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.759 to get my miles in. All these things kind of 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:11.840 going through my mind. And that was one of the 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:15.139 objectives of going on the trail in my mind was 00:13:15.139 --> 00:13:17.759 to kill two birds with one stone. I could do 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:20.679 something that I loved run and he could do something 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:23.500 that he loved bike without his training wheels. 00:13:23.779 --> 00:13:27.159 And even better, we got to do these things together, 00:13:27.259 --> 00:13:31.259 but stopping every 50 feet or so to pick up leaves 00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:36.679 was not something that I expected. It's. Funny, 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:40.360 isn't it, how linear we can become in our own 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:44.580 thinking. Even that notion of killing two birds 00:13:44.580 --> 00:13:47.820 with one stone is all tied up in the American 00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:52.299 ideal and idol, I'd say, of productivity. We 00:13:52.299 --> 00:13:54.480 were on the trail and there was a clear goal, 00:13:54.580 --> 00:13:59.879 clear purpose in my mind. But meanwhile, it was 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:03.799 my son's wonder and praise that was singing through 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:07.259 his life, as goes the quote from Mark's wonderful 00:14:07.259 --> 00:14:11.139 book, that was inviting me to become more childlike 00:14:11.139 --> 00:14:15.879 in my own disposition as well. And so maybe I 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.220 didn't handle things the way I wanted to that 00:14:18.220 --> 00:14:21.460 time, but I think next time I'm going to try 00:14:21.460 --> 00:14:24.600 to remain more open to the fact that my heart 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:28.409 rate may not increase as I had hoped. but that 00:14:28.409 --> 00:14:31.669 it might expand nonetheless in this practicing 00:14:31.669 --> 00:14:41.529 of presence. Now back to the conversation. But 00:14:41.529 --> 00:14:48.789 would you explain receiving grace as essentially 00:14:48.789 --> 00:14:55.820 being aware of the blessed reality that you're 00:14:55.820 --> 00:14:59.740 experiencing or like, how would, how would you, 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:05.799 how would you define that? Good question. For 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:14.500 me, receiving grace is getting out of the way 00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:22.379 to taste the, the Holy ordinary, the re the sacred 00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:27.350 reality. that is always present the deeper dimension 00:15:27.350 --> 00:15:34.049 of life that is that is life and but i don't 00:15:34.049 --> 00:15:38.009 want to also say that my awareness that that 00:15:38.009 --> 00:15:41.470 that that that my awareness of it is dependent 00:15:41.470 --> 00:15:45.649 on even feeling it or experiencing it because 00:15:45.649 --> 00:15:50.919 it is It is. And sometimes, and it's holding 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:55.740 me, whether I'm aware of it or not, and whether 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:59.679 I'm participating with it or not. And I think 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:03.700 part for me, part of the contemplative invitation 00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:13.360 is to ask, how can I place myself in that posture 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:17.379 of being aware of it, of participating with it, 00:16:17.419 --> 00:16:21.679 of receiving it as much as possible while being 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.679 faithful to my life responsibilities. And so 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:29.340 I think of, I've got a really beautiful yard 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:32.919 and there's a little creek that runs near our 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:35.019 house. We've got a couple of chairs out there. 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.580 And so sometimes my wife and I will go sit out 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:41.860 there or I'll go sit out there. And the stream 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:47.580 The water is so just incessant. And it's not 00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:50.399 a fast brook. It's just a trickle. Sometimes 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.200 if it rains, it's faster. And on the other side 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:57.539 of our house is a busy road with a lot of cars. 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.700 But if I go out there and listen to that brook, 00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:06.059 I can't hear the cars. Or I might be aware of 00:17:06.059 --> 00:17:07.700 the cars, but they don't seem to matter. So I 00:17:07.700 --> 00:17:13.019 just use that as a... as a metaphor for tapping 00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:19.619 in to what is that deeper stream of God, divinity, 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.480 love, grace, however we want to describe it, 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:24.660 holiness. Yeah, you're bringing up something 00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:28.779 really important, I think, because when I first 00:17:28.779 --> 00:17:34.960 began kind of venturing into this mystical contemplative 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:41.599 path, there was part of me... that was, that 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:46.079 kind of correlated mysticism contemplation with 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.480 like this kind of blissful euphoria that, you 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:51.240 know, in the Franciscan space, like you think 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:54.339 of St. Francis of Assisi and brother, son, sister 00:17:54.339 --> 00:17:57.000 moon, like frolicking, like through the fields 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:00.200 and, you know, like this, this divine oneness 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:04.380 with God and pure happiness. And, and in my experience, 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:06.599 and I'm sure it's different for everyone, but 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:12.019 in my experience, The contemplative way it feels 00:18:12.019 --> 00:18:14.720 sometimes there, there are those real blissful 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.160 moments of connectivity, you know, like the other 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:20.700 day I was giving my kids a bath and I was checked 00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.099 out. I wasn't present. I was thinking about something 00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:25.680 at work, thinking about emails I needed to send. 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:28.660 And then I was just like, Hey, do what you just 00:18:28.660 --> 00:18:31.619 said. Like, Hey, let's pause. Let's like really. 00:18:32.809 --> 00:18:34.970 And then I became aware of all the hilarious 00:18:34.970 --> 00:18:39.630 things my son was saying. So sometimes there 00:18:39.630 --> 00:18:42.170 are those moments where it does come rushing 00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:45.369 in and you're like, gosh dang it, life is so 00:18:45.369 --> 00:18:49.269 beautiful. But then there are other moments where 00:18:49.269 --> 00:18:53.809 for me, it feels more like emptiness in the sense 00:18:53.809 --> 00:18:58.299 that... Maybe you're next to a creek that you're 00:18:58.299 --> 00:19:02.380 talking about or listening to the ocean or just 00:19:02.380 --> 00:19:05.539 sitting in your office in the silence. And I 00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:08.779 guess I would explain emptiness as letting go 00:19:08.779 --> 00:19:12.099 of all these things that I'm trying to control. 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:16.599 And that's a disorienting kind of thing. It is 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:20.799 freeing. It is liberating in a sense. However, 00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:24.420 it's disorienting. I don't know. Are we kind 00:19:24.420 --> 00:19:26.720 of hitting on the same thing or what would you 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.119 add to this notion of emptiness and letting go 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:35.559 in contemplation? Well, that's good stuff. Yeah, 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.900 for me, that letting go is a place of grace and 00:19:38.900 --> 00:19:40.599 emptiness. So it doesn't mean I'm feeling grace 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:44.279 or feeling blissful, but that emptiness, and 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:47.660 I guess that's part of my Christian faith, which 00:19:47.660 --> 00:19:51.609 is that the emptiness has... a personal depth 00:19:51.609 --> 00:19:54.849 to it of love. Uh, and at the center of the universe 00:19:54.849 --> 00:19:59.470 is love is part of my, uh, belief, uh, and, uh, 00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:07.670 and, and so if I, so that emptiness is a letting 00:20:07.670 --> 00:20:10.910 go of, could be thoughts, could, it could be 00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:17.029 obsessions, could be, uh, um, to -do lists and, 00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:22.079 and Just awareness, just present moment. However, 00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:27.140 I do want to put in this conversation, it's not 00:20:27.140 --> 00:20:30.599 separate from suffering. And because I think 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:34.339 in contemplative... speak, we could also bypass 00:20:34.339 --> 00:20:37.619 suffering and say, oh, the holy ordinary is whenever 00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:41.099 it's blissful and happy. And I don't think that's 00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:43.839 the case at all. I think that the holy ordinary 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:46.720 is in the midst, right smack dab in the midst 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:51.079 of all the suffering, all the grief, all the 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:59.440 pain. And even paradoxically, in our lack of 00:21:00.610 --> 00:21:05.869 experience of it. So it could be, the emptiness 00:21:05.869 --> 00:21:08.349 is, I want to experience God's love or God's 00:21:08.349 --> 00:21:10.910 grace, and I'm not experiencing it. That too 00:21:10.910 --> 00:21:14.390 is, and this is John of the cross, the dark night 00:21:14.390 --> 00:21:16.910 of the soul, that too is a graced experience 00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:20.369 in this bigger sense of participating in that 00:21:20.369 --> 00:21:24.869 emptiness, which is also love. So that dark night 00:21:24.869 --> 00:21:28.640 of the soul is a very important contemplative 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.039 teaching for me. I think of my own periods of 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:36.799 depression when I was younger. I think of anxiety. 00:21:36.859 --> 00:21:40.299 I think also of just the tremendous amount of 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:45.079 suffering that the world is facing. And I don't 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:47.599 want to live a privileged contemplative life. 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:52.380 insular, that is separate from or disconnected 00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:59.099 from the catastrophe of climate change, the catastrophe 00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:04.559 of, I'm going to say, genocide in Gaza. And it 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:10.119 has to all be connected. And that's really important 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:15.740 for me, because if it's not connected to uh, 00:22:15.740 --> 00:22:18.119 to the suffering and the real oppression that 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.119 is happening in the world, then I don't know 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:23.079 what it's, I don't know what it's for. I don't 00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:25.619 know how it matters other than to just make me 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:28.299 feel better, um, and get through the day. And 00:22:28.299 --> 00:22:31.099 that I'm convinced is not the gospel of Jesus. 00:22:32.180 --> 00:22:36.819 Yeah, no, that, that's a great, um, that's a 00:22:36.819 --> 00:22:39.279 great segue as well. I mean, you, you write on 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.759 page 29 that contemplation is all about how one 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.059 sees and shows up to reality and then you continue 00:22:46.059 --> 00:22:50.960 later on if as thomas merton intuited the world 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:53.839 is not out there but in my deepest self then 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.259 contemplation is not a flight from the world 00:22:56.259 --> 00:22:58.880 but flight to the heart of the world which is 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.240 what you're getting at and then you continue 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:04.079 which is at the very same time the heart of god 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:08.200 so can you go a little bit deeper into that idea 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:13.839 of showing up to reality that is not centered 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:21.460 on myself, but is actually connected to. all 00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:24.480 that is around me to the sufferings on the other 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:28.460 side of the world to um yeah you're going in 00:23:28.460 --> 00:23:31.440 that direction but that is that is a profound 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:35.299 concept that because i last this is the last 00:23:35.299 --> 00:23:37.980 thing i'll say like contemplation i think it 00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:41.400 gets a bad rap because it at its worst it becomes 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:46.400 like narcissistic yes and merton's writing sometimes 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.609 feel that way where it's like I mean, I'm very 00:23:49.609 --> 00:23:52.049 grateful for him, but it's like, dude, you are 00:23:52.049 --> 00:23:55.990 like just writing almost obsessively about like 00:23:55.990 --> 00:23:59.190 your own interior landscape. But then his whole, 00:23:59.210 --> 00:24:02.329 the whole architecture of his writing is it does. 00:24:02.430 --> 00:24:05.910 He, he, he does not write as if he's a monk cloistered 00:24:05.910 --> 00:24:08.089 from the world. Right. He writes as if he's living 00:24:08.089 --> 00:24:09.990 in the middle of New York city because he's so 00:24:09.990 --> 00:24:12.849 in touch with the sufferings of the world. So 00:24:12.849 --> 00:24:15.150 all that to say anything you would have to add 00:24:15.150 --> 00:24:18.609 there. Yeah, Thomas Marin is such a great example 00:24:18.609 --> 00:24:21.650 of this, because I also think his relentless 00:24:21.650 --> 00:24:27.970 quest for self -knowledge and viewing his own 00:24:27.970 --> 00:24:31.690 life as a laboratory of contemplation and his 00:24:31.690 --> 00:24:34.809 willingness to write about that and share his 00:24:34.809 --> 00:24:41.140 journals. I can't prove this. I'm not a Merton 00:24:41.140 --> 00:24:44.920 scholar, but I want to say that it's connected 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:49.480 to his ability to write about nuclear war, racism, 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:56.000 and nonviolence, and to do so with such depth 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:03.180 and precision that we can read it decades later. 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:06.740 And it feels somehow still relevant, even though 00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:10.720 some aspects of it might be outdated. He touched 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:17.880 on a reality that feels deeply true and almost 00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:24.150 timeless, which is... I mean, that we got to 00:25:24.150 --> 00:25:29.069 live in the previous century of such a person. 00:25:29.769 --> 00:25:33.109 The other thing I would say is, you know, I would 00:25:33.109 --> 00:25:36.769 hope that this quest would open me up to it would. 00:25:37.309 --> 00:25:41.069 would sensitize me, would somehow lead me to 00:25:41.069 --> 00:25:43.470 solidarity with people who are suffering in my 00:25:43.470 --> 00:25:45.750 own community and across the world. Hopefully 00:25:45.750 --> 00:25:48.289 that takes place in certain actions. Sometimes 00:25:48.289 --> 00:25:52.970 I experience more often the limitations of what 00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:56.970 I'm able to do. I feel passionate about any number 00:25:56.970 --> 00:26:00.829 of issues of marginalization and suffering, and 00:26:00.829 --> 00:26:04.589 I'm more aware of... my, my powerlessness in 00:26:04.589 --> 00:26:07.869 certain areas. Uh, but hopefully it will crack 00:26:07.869 --> 00:26:12.109 my heart open to, to the interconnectedness of 00:26:12.109 --> 00:26:18.450 suffering. And, and I think somehow that I'm 00:26:18.450 --> 00:26:21.609 just thinking of like, like a SIM, like a simple 00:26:21.609 --> 00:26:24.289 example of, of having a conversation with my 00:26:24.289 --> 00:26:27.930 wife and she brings up a re you know, a response 00:26:27.930 --> 00:26:34.539 that is different from me. And, and I could defend 00:26:34.539 --> 00:26:39.180 and try to be right, but there's something in 00:26:39.180 --> 00:26:42.859 the contemplative posture, and my therapist would 00:26:42.859 --> 00:26:47.279 be really happy that I'm saying this, that leads 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:57.730 me outside of myself. Say, what am I feeling? 00:26:57.890 --> 00:27:00.890 What's my feeling? But also, what are you feeling? 00:27:01.009 --> 00:27:05.309 And what is your reality? And that this life 00:27:05.309 --> 00:27:09.509 is full of mutuality and relationship. And so 00:27:09.509 --> 00:27:13.369 I want to be present to my wife, to my kids, 00:27:13.509 --> 00:27:18.089 empathetic in that way that comes alongside and 00:27:18.089 --> 00:27:23.410 suffers with them. And that also that's not separate 00:27:23.410 --> 00:27:26.500 from... the rest of the world's suffering either. 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:31.980 It doesn't mean that me, you, any of us are called 00:27:31.980 --> 00:27:35.880 to do all things, but that somehow we are not 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:39.519 shut down, that somehow we are reading the headlines 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:44.180 and our hearts are breaking too. And we're not 00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:48.519 letting it crush us. We might go through periods 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:51.099 where we are crushed of grief, where we lose 00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:54.839 somebody, or we go through an illness. But we 00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:59.039 are also tied in and tapping in to the joy and 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:05.880 the seasonal nature of that holiness, which encapsulates. 00:28:06.490 --> 00:28:10.470 the dark night and its depth, its suffering, 00:28:10.549 --> 00:28:14.170 but also its delight and its bliss and its joy. 00:28:14.309 --> 00:28:17.329 So not bliss that bypasses, but bliss that still 00:28:17.329 --> 00:28:20.970 is bliss. And that is because life is amazing. 00:28:21.910 --> 00:28:24.150 Even though, you know, as Wendell Berry said, 00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:30.009 even though, choose joy, even though you've considered 00:28:30.009 --> 00:28:33.710 all the facts. Something like that in one of 00:28:33.710 --> 00:28:37.279 his great poems. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, man. Yeah. 00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:42.740 There, there's a lot there. Um, yeah. Well, one 00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:45.859 basic question I had was, would you, would you 00:28:45.859 --> 00:28:49.500 say that at the heart of reality that we are 00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:54.480 invited to experience or become aware of is holiness? 00:28:54.640 --> 00:29:01.200 And then if so, what is holiness? Wow. That's 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:07.460 a great question. Yes, but I think how I understand 00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:10.599 holiness is very different from how I might have 00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:14.640 grown up. I grew up in an evangelical tradition, 00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:18.019 and I'm very grateful for that tradition, teaching 00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:20.880 me the Bible, creating passion for the gospel. 00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:27.980 And holiness, how I learned about it, was separate. 00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:36.039 Same, yeah. division. It's holy when it's, you 00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:40.259 know, I don't know if any of the listeners or 00:29:40.259 --> 00:29:41.900 you're familiar with the Christian contemporary 00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:45.200 music scene, but I grew up listening, you know, 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:50.220 and I remember dc talk news boys audio adrenaline 00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:52.660 you want me to keep going okay you know oh yeah 00:29:52.660 --> 00:29:55.740 i saw all those guys in concert but i remember 00:29:55.740 --> 00:29:58.259 going to a youth conference and i think i write 00:29:58.259 --> 00:30:01.240 about this in the book uh i remember going to 00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:03.920 a youth conference and and i and i was listening 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:06.279 to pearl jam and nine inch nails and all these 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:10.799 bands and then um And then I went to the conference. 00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:13.500 I went to some workshop and I was like very passionate 00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:17.019 about my faith. And they were using all my tapes 00:30:17.019 --> 00:30:20.799 by then. So that dates my age in my 40s. But 00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:24.480 all my tapes were like being used as examples 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:30.099 of the satanic music, of what not to listen to, 00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:35.920 what's not holy, what's not sacred. It's been 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:39.420 a real quest for me to understand holiness in 00:30:39.420 --> 00:30:44.720 a way that leads to union, to one sacred reality, 00:30:45.140 --> 00:30:49.920 that holiness is actually eradicating the divisions. 00:30:51.130 --> 00:30:53.410 And it doesn't mean that there's not systems 00:30:53.410 --> 00:30:55.990 of evil and oppression. And it doesn't mean we're 00:30:55.990 --> 00:30:58.109 not smart and discerning about all that stuff. 00:30:58.210 --> 00:31:02.349 But it means that it is one reality that holiness 00:31:02.349 --> 00:31:09.029 is wholeness and not be ye holy as separate from 00:31:09.029 --> 00:31:11.829 the rest of the world. As Merton says, the world 00:31:11.829 --> 00:31:15.029 has a place at the center of my being as well. 00:31:15.049 --> 00:31:20.500 I'm not separate from the world. Yeah. Yeah, 00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:28.059 that's such an important concept that you're 00:31:28.059 --> 00:31:30.740 diving into. Because I do think that when most 00:31:30.740 --> 00:31:36.720 people hear the word holy, at least for me for 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.859 a long time with my own evangelical background, 00:31:39.220 --> 00:31:44.079 the thing that ran through my mind was, be better. 00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:48.799 You need to be better. You either need to I've 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:50.779 mentioned this before, but on the podcast, but 00:31:50.779 --> 00:31:54.140 it's like you either need to stop doing what 00:31:54.140 --> 00:31:57.380 you're doing or start doing something that you're 00:31:57.380 --> 00:32:02.119 not doing. Like it was always tied to in. And 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:05.740 why? Why should you do that? Well, because there's 00:32:05.740 --> 00:32:10.980 separation between you and this ultimate deity 00:32:10.980 --> 00:32:14.559 who is perfectly holy. And then that's how you 00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.890 get into judgment, which leads to self judgment, 00:32:19.069 --> 00:32:23.390 which leads to a very low, um, view of oneself 00:32:23.390 --> 00:32:28.009 and a frail identity. Uh, I mean there, but what 00:32:28.009 --> 00:32:30.609 you're saying, and just let me know if I'm tracking 00:32:30.609 --> 00:32:36.450 or not, but holiness is unitive to, to enter 00:32:36.450 --> 00:32:41.089 into the holy ordinary or opening one's senses 00:32:41.089 --> 00:32:47.039 to experiencing the holy ordinary. becoming aware 00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:54.559 of you're becoming aware of the one the depth 00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.160 and beauty of life but also your own connection 00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:04.539 to everyone and everything in this world am i 00:33:04.539 --> 00:33:08.279 am i tracking there or what would you add yeah 00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:11.480 i would say that holiness is unitive well and 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:16.240 From a mystical perspective, that the mystics 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:22.200 lead us towards a unitive vision of interconnection, 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:25.470 you know, and it's not to... glamorize the mystics 00:33:25.470 --> 00:33:28.849 either, you know, that sort of bugs me, you know, 00:33:28.849 --> 00:33:31.109 read about the mystics were so enlightened. They 00:33:31.109 --> 00:33:33.190 had their stuff too. They're all in their culture. 00:33:33.430 --> 00:33:36.890 They struggled with their, you know, their own 00:33:36.890 --> 00:33:39.829 time and, you know, limitations. But there's 00:33:39.829 --> 00:33:43.230 a unitive vision that it is one world, one holy 00:33:43.230 --> 00:33:47.430 sacred world. And we're all a part of it. It's 00:33:47.430 --> 00:33:52.599 a mutual relationship at the heart of reality 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:56.460 with god and people and the earth and how cool 00:33:56.460 --> 00:33:59.519 is that and and that that is so that's been so 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:03.920 liberating for me in in discovering my own uh 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:08.679 my own spiritual quest and theological exploration 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:14.340 um and one thing that i heard you say is this 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:19.039 that There's a certain version of holiness where 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.219 it says, I'm supposed to live separate and do 00:34:22.219 --> 00:34:25.599 better, and God is separate too. Yes. I think 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:29.039 this, however I want to say, mystical contemplative 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:33.719 holiness means God is not separate either. And 00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:37.340 I don't have to do better. I mean, doing better 00:34:37.340 --> 00:34:41.599 is great. I hope we all can do better. But it's 00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:45.389 not in a striving way. It's just in a... in a 00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:49.309 participation way. So, so because God is not 00:34:49.309 --> 00:34:51.929 separate from these, this web of relationship 00:34:51.929 --> 00:34:55.050 either. God is not separate from that, from me 00:34:55.050 --> 00:34:58.309 sitting outside in, by my stream. And God is 00:34:58.309 --> 00:35:00.150 not separate when I'm having a disagreement with 00:35:00.150 --> 00:35:03.250 my wife or a kid is having a really hard time 00:35:03.250 --> 00:35:07.170 and we're, and it's getting tense, uh, or I'm 00:35:07.170 --> 00:35:09.469 in a traffic jam or, and I'm late for something. 00:35:09.980 --> 00:35:12.440 God is not separate from my experience, from 00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.360 the world's experience. And that means that we 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.159 don't have to be separate from God. And we don't 00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:22.219 have to do better so much as we have to. And 00:35:22.219 --> 00:35:25.099 I don't even want to say we have to. It's less 00:35:25.099 --> 00:35:34.900 about doing better than just receiving. On page 00:35:34.900 --> 00:35:38.559 51 of his book, The Holy Ordinary, Mark Longhurst 00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:55.960 writes, This notion of what ancient Celts called 00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.280 thin places has been a topic that has intrigued 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.739 me for years now. And I think it has captivated 00:36:02.739 --> 00:36:05.519 me because it's such a challenge. I remember 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.420 realizing I was in a thin place years ago when 00:36:08.420 --> 00:36:10.460 a mentor took me to a hole -in -the -wall music 00:36:10.460 --> 00:36:12.900 bar in Charlotte, North Carolina for the first 00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:16.380 time called the Double Door Inn. I wasn't sure 00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:19.880 what to expect when he took me. I didn't know 00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.840 much about blues or soul at the time. I did not 00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:26.139 like jazz. But I quickly learned that the inside 00:36:26.139 --> 00:36:30.659 of the place was pure magic. It was perhaps my 00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:33.679 first experience with a contemplative kind of 00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:37.719 seeing, at least one that I could name, and it 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.599 really felt as if in this place I was seeing 00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.559 reality as it is. When I learned that it was 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:48.760 going to be closing, I decided to go several 00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:51.619 times a month its final year and write a book 00:36:51.619 --> 00:36:54.500 about the spiritual truths that I and its patrons 00:36:54.500 --> 00:36:59.769 found in this thin, unassuming place. I think 00:36:59.769 --> 00:37:03.469 or hope at least that it will always be a symbol 00:37:03.469 --> 00:37:07.289 for me of the potentiality and thinness that 00:37:07.289 --> 00:37:11.369 can exist in the ordinary, in the spaces or places 00:37:11.369 --> 00:37:15.530 that I pass by or pass through, thinking there's 00:37:15.530 --> 00:37:19.829 nothing there to experience or enjoy. As Thomas 00:37:19.829 --> 00:37:23.630 Merton famously wrote, the gate of heaven is 00:37:23.630 --> 00:37:35.079 everywhere. Now back to the conversation. Yeah, 00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:39.780 because in that receiving of grace, then the 00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:43.820 fountain of grace and beauty and goodness is 00:37:43.820 --> 00:37:45.699 kind of flowing through you. Like you said, you're 00:37:45.699 --> 00:37:48.860 participating. That's a great word. You mentioned, 00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:53.820 we've hit on this a couple times, you've hit 00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:59.039 on your own journey. Can you dive into your spiritual 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:02.099 quest a little bit? It shows up throughout your 00:38:02.099 --> 00:38:06.380 book. You mentioned all the nine -inch nails. 00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:10.119 Didn't you burn those CDs or tapes or something? 00:38:10.340 --> 00:38:16.500 Yeah. How did you end up arriving at the mystics 00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:19.940 and then contemplation? I'm very curious about 00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:25.900 how you found yourself in this space. Thanks 00:38:25.900 --> 00:38:30.139 for that question. Well, just... One door led 00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:33.559 to another. One question led to another. One 00:38:33.559 --> 00:38:36.019 experience led to another. One person led to 00:38:36.019 --> 00:38:42.159 another. I grew up as a pastor's kid in rural 00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:45.780 Michigan, evangelical, as I mentioned earlier. 00:38:46.139 --> 00:38:48.679 And I really spanned the gamut, went to an evangelical 00:38:48.679 --> 00:38:51.500 college, actually went to a fundamentalist. school 00:38:51.500 --> 00:38:56.579 for missionary kids in Germany. I've seen a whole 00:38:56.579 --> 00:38:59.659 spectrum of Christian denominations, Christian 00:38:59.659 --> 00:39:04.960 experiences. I went to Harvard Divinity School, 00:39:05.260 --> 00:39:09.539 which was a place of real deep ecumenism and 00:39:09.539 --> 00:39:16.460 interfaith and folks from all walks of life there 00:39:16.460 --> 00:39:21.929 where I got to meet and study. learn from, which 00:39:21.929 --> 00:39:25.369 was very helpful and eye -opening, heart -expanding. 00:39:26.050 --> 00:39:30.929 I went to a charismatic church for a while, so 00:39:30.929 --> 00:39:33.349 I've spent time in the charismatic movement a 00:39:33.349 --> 00:39:36.860 little bit, but then I... I became ordained in 00:39:36.860 --> 00:39:40.679 the Disciples of Christ denomination first, and 00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:43.880 then with the United Church of Christ, served 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.599 United Church of Christ churches, really because 00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:49.019 it was a big enough umbrella to hold my questions 00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:51.880 and my political convictions of social justice 00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:59.670 and to live that out. I have found... But the 00:39:59.670 --> 00:40:03.630 mystical quest, I didn't really find it in the 00:40:03.630 --> 00:40:07.230 UCC. I didn't find it in evangelicalism. I found 00:40:07.230 --> 00:40:09.250 it through discovering the work of Richard Rohr 00:40:09.250 --> 00:40:11.070 in the Center for Action Contemplation, which 00:40:11.070 --> 00:40:14.949 is where I now work. And really just going on 00:40:14.949 --> 00:40:19.809 various retreats and reading books and going 00:40:19.809 --> 00:40:25.869 to conferences. And that opened up my theological 00:40:25.869 --> 00:40:30.860 mind. I started a meditation practice with not 00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:35.420 a lot of guidance. And I kind of was just on 00:40:35.420 --> 00:40:39.000 my own trying to do this for a while and finding 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.400 like -spirited people wherever I could. So, oh, 00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.260 you're a pastor in the UCC and you're into centering 00:40:45.260 --> 00:40:48.059 prayer too. Oh my gosh, you're learning Lectio 00:40:48.059 --> 00:40:52.739 Divina too. Let's talk. That's so cool. I really 00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:55.860 didn't have a community in which to practice 00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:58.920 or live this out, which is why I'm so passionate 00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:01.139 about a community that I'm a part of called the 00:41:01.139 --> 00:41:04.400 Community of the Incarnation, which is, and there's 00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:06.519 a nonprofit umbrella called the Center for Spiritual 00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:12.239 Imagination, which is a vowed path, which offers 00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:16.320 multiple ways to get involved and be on a contemplative 00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:20.780 journey in community. But it's a... a path of 00:41:20.780 --> 00:41:25.820 deep commitment for people like me, like you 00:41:25.820 --> 00:41:30.179 who are. who have jobs and are seeking a contemplative 00:41:30.179 --> 00:41:33.679 life in the chaos of the world, amidst the chaos 00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:37.519 of the world, and are not able to live a cloistered 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.260 life, but are seeking that heart of integration 00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:44.579 of contemplation and chaos or whatever the right 00:41:44.579 --> 00:41:48.639 word is. And so that's been really helpful to 00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:52.920 me in the last several years is really realizing, 00:41:53.139 --> 00:41:56.820 you know, it's one thing to read books. to do 00:41:56.820 --> 00:41:59.320 a practice on my own. It's one thing to even 00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:02.960 go on retreats. And it's one thing to have a 00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:06.639 spiritual director. But really, and this is what 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:10.480 really animates me, is I think forms of community 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:14.320 and accountability are really needed to help 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:20.300 folks like me live this life with integrity and 00:42:20.300 --> 00:42:27.630 accountability. I really think that this is a 00:42:27.630 --> 00:42:32.530 deep path that brings up all our junk. And if 00:42:32.530 --> 00:42:34.489 we're not in therapy, we're not in spiritual 00:42:34.489 --> 00:42:37.150 direction, we're not in some community, then 00:42:37.150 --> 00:42:44.050 the risk of bypass is very great. And the risk 00:42:44.050 --> 00:42:48.889 of even... Talking about contemplation in a disembodied, 00:42:48.889 --> 00:42:52.190 inauthentic way is very great. And that also 00:42:52.190 --> 00:42:56.849 leads to, in my opinion, to a disconnection from 00:42:56.849 --> 00:42:59.530 the suffering of the world and from injustice 00:42:59.530 --> 00:43:02.530 and oppressions happening right next door in 00:43:02.530 --> 00:43:08.030 my community. So does that make sense? I'm happy 00:43:08.030 --> 00:43:09.789 to go in any of those directions. I don't know 00:43:09.789 --> 00:43:11.710 if I, I probably gave a lot of stuff up. No, 00:43:11.710 --> 00:43:13.849 absolutely. It's a beautiful journey you've been 00:43:13.849 --> 00:43:15.929 on. And yeah, didn't Merton say something one 00:43:15.929 --> 00:43:17.869 time along the lines of like, hey, just because 00:43:17.869 --> 00:43:20.190 you're an introvert doesn't mean you're a contemplative. 00:43:20.429 --> 00:43:23.429 Exactly. Just because you've read contemplative 00:43:23.429 --> 00:43:25.650 books, it does not. And I've had to learn this 00:43:25.650 --> 00:43:28.170 because just because I've, because I read them 00:43:28.170 --> 00:43:30.389 all, read all the books. I read all the Thomas 00:43:30.389 --> 00:43:32.449 Keating, Cynthia Bourgeau, Richard Rohr books. 00:43:32.590 --> 00:43:35.570 I've read them all. Thomas Merton. And then I've 00:43:35.570 --> 00:43:38.170 started studying Julie. of Norwich, John of the 00:43:38.170 --> 00:43:41.690 Cross. These are my heroes. But just because 00:43:41.690 --> 00:43:44.630 I've read books, it does not mean anything. It 00:43:44.630 --> 00:43:47.809 might mean I can talk cool theology, but it does 00:43:47.809 --> 00:43:51.130 not mean anything in terms of my lived experience 00:43:51.130 --> 00:43:58.570 unless I am able to integrate that in some way. 00:43:59.210 --> 00:44:02.650 And I was not able to, just as I look back on 00:44:02.650 --> 00:44:05.949 my own life, been on this path for years. quite 00:44:05.949 --> 00:44:08.809 a long time now. I don't think I was able to 00:44:08.809 --> 00:44:11.610 integrate that in a helpful, accountable way 00:44:11.610 --> 00:44:17.670 really until I was in a community, whether that 00:44:17.670 --> 00:44:20.309 was just a couple of people or this more established, 00:44:20.530 --> 00:44:23.070 structured community. We have our collective 00:44:23.070 --> 00:44:26.170 rule of life together. We do work through the 00:44:26.170 --> 00:44:32.269 12 steps on a regular basis. So that's what I 00:44:32.269 --> 00:44:37.420 mean in terms of holding the feet to the fire 00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:41.840 of what it really means to be alive to this this 00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:47.039 reality of life yeah yeah you i appreciate you 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:50.559 bringing it back to lived experience um i'm just 00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:55.199 wondering to make this uber practical for listeners 00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:57.719 and then for us as well in dialogue with one 00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:01.579 another is Is there something recently in your 00:45:01.579 --> 00:45:04.300 life where you've experienced the wholly ordinary 00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:07.000 and the mundane? Anything come to mind? Sorry 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.019 to put you on the spot. Of course. Well, so many. 00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:14.780 Yeah. Let me pause for a minute so I could just... 00:45:14.780 --> 00:45:17.940 You know, what comes to mind is just having a 00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:22.280 conversation with my wife last night. And I got 00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:26.300 defensive about something. But instead of... 00:45:28.449 --> 00:45:33.030 Instead of working with reaction, I was able 00:45:33.030 --> 00:45:37.269 to take a breath, to feel what I was feeling. 00:45:38.469 --> 00:45:43.650 And we were able to really have a beautiful conversation 00:45:43.650 --> 00:45:48.269 and exchange that took us somewhere deeper. So 00:45:48.269 --> 00:45:54.139 it's as simple as that. It's as simple as working 00:45:54.139 --> 00:45:59.440 with my defenses and reactions and my connection 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:03.679 to what I'm feeling and what's happening in my 00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:11.920 body. On page 82 of his book, The Holy Ordinary, 00:46:12.219 --> 00:46:15.699 Mark Longhurst writes, quote, to pay attention 00:46:15.699 --> 00:46:18.809 to margins. is to pay attention to how boundary 00:46:18.809 --> 00:46:21.710 lines are constructed in our world and our lives, 00:46:21.849 --> 00:46:25.550 and then to cross those boundaries. The psyche 00:46:25.550 --> 00:46:28.269 draws boundaries around what it is willing to 00:46:28.269 --> 00:46:31.889 face, so exploring unconscious desires through 00:46:31.889 --> 00:46:35.050 shadow work is a way of welcoming the Holy Spirit 00:46:35.050 --> 00:46:40.070 into our inner margins. One of the many things 00:46:40.070 --> 00:46:43.670 I really appreciated about Mark's book is how 00:46:43.670 --> 00:46:47.550 real it is. There are so many spiritual gurus 00:46:47.550 --> 00:46:51.349 today, both secular and religious, who tend to 00:46:51.349 --> 00:46:53.949 promise wholeness and completeness if people 00:46:53.949 --> 00:46:57.869 follow them or their protocols or their steps 00:46:57.869 --> 00:47:01.150 or whatever it may be. And this, I think I can 00:47:01.150 --> 00:47:04.389 say, is not the contemplative or mystical path. 00:47:05.369 --> 00:47:09.050 Mark, in his book and in this conversation, reminds 00:47:09.050 --> 00:47:15.110 us that the holy ordinary also exists within 00:47:15.110 --> 00:47:19.849 the parts of ourselves that we dare not go. I 00:47:19.849 --> 00:47:22.630 love St. Teresa of Avila's metaphor for the soul 00:47:22.630 --> 00:47:26.820 being an interior castle. I've often thought 00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:31.000 of the shadowed hallways and dark corners of 00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:34.099 my own interior castle, spaces within that may 00:47:34.099 --> 00:47:37.800 require spending some time there. Curiously, 00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:41.980 I should add, gently, empathetically, in order 00:47:41.980 --> 00:47:44.739 for the light to permeate even those far off 00:47:44.739 --> 00:47:47.980 places I fear, or as Mark wrote, may not even 00:47:47.980 --> 00:47:51.000 realize that I fear or have been avoiding these 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:55.960 boundary places within. On page 39, Mark continues, 00:47:56.300 --> 00:48:00.119 mystics happen to be my heroes, but not in the 00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:03.460 unapproachable sense. Rather, mystics are meant 00:48:03.460 --> 00:48:08.460 to remind us of our heart's own capacity. The 00:48:08.460 --> 00:48:11.599 contemplative path, as Mark explains, invites 00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:14.659 an awareness of our own heart's capacity. I love 00:48:14.659 --> 00:48:19.619 that. But often this requires welcoming the Holy 00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:30.679 Spirit into our own inner. margins yeah well 00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:33.940 i i appreciate that you shared a moment that 00:48:33.940 --> 00:48:38.039 um is maybe this is too severe of language but 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:40.360 it you know there's like some chaos there there's 00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:43.360 some conflict there there's there there are difficult 00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:45.940 things rising up within you as you're having 00:48:45.940 --> 00:48:48.860 this exchange i mean i i just think it's a beautiful 00:48:48.860 --> 00:48:53.320 example of like hey this is this invitation in 00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:57.420 your book is to everything, you know, and sometimes 00:48:57.420 --> 00:49:01.639 beauty comes bursting through into your world 00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:04.780 and you're invited to open up your senses and 00:49:04.780 --> 00:49:07.440 really enjoy that. And, but then most of the 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:11.079 time it's more complex than that. Um, and, and 00:49:11.079 --> 00:49:14.380 one thing that we haven't gotten into that I 00:49:14.380 --> 00:49:19.179 would like to, uh, before we part ways in. And 00:49:19.179 --> 00:49:21.739 I think this is related, but in part five of 00:49:21.739 --> 00:49:25.139 your book transformations, you talk about our 00:49:25.139 --> 00:49:31.219 insatiable want for more. Yes. And I just think 00:49:31.219 --> 00:49:35.159 of like our attention economy. And like the other 00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:38.119 day I keep going back to giving my kids a bath 00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:41.519 because that's like my one time with them during 00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.420 the work week where it's just me and them. And 00:49:44.420 --> 00:49:46.260 like the other day I caught myself just like 00:49:46.260 --> 00:49:49.219 scrolling through Twitter. you know as i'm and 00:49:49.219 --> 00:49:55.099 it's like but i don't know like they're and again 00:49:55.099 --> 00:49:57.340 i'm not i'm not beating myself up because it's 00:49:57.340 --> 00:50:00.340 a long day like you you need to have these you 00:50:00.340 --> 00:50:02.780 do need to have these outlets of like okay i'm 00:50:02.780 --> 00:50:06.179 just going to kind of numb a little bit and take 00:50:06.179 --> 00:50:10.329 a deep breath and however That's true more often 00:50:10.329 --> 00:50:13.769 in my life than I would like it to be. And there 00:50:13.769 --> 00:50:17.030 is this attention economy of where these things 00:50:17.030 --> 00:50:20.150 are always pulling at you. And that makes a contemplative 00:50:20.150 --> 00:50:24.489 path very difficult. Yes. And this is where desire 00:50:24.489 --> 00:50:27.929 comes in. It kind of, at least for me, it clouds 00:50:27.929 --> 00:50:33.090 my desire. And it's like, well, you think that 00:50:33.090 --> 00:50:37.010 you just want to numb your mind. But actually, 00:50:37.010 --> 00:50:41.429 you're desiring something deeper here. Any thoughts 00:50:41.429 --> 00:50:44.230 there when it comes to desire, contemplation? 00:50:44.409 --> 00:50:48.110 Yeah. Oh, gosh. I'm so glad you picked up on 00:50:48.110 --> 00:50:51.389 that chapter. I'm really passionate about this, 00:50:51.449 --> 00:50:54.750 and I actually view it as really central to contemplative 00:50:54.750 --> 00:51:04.269 transformation. Growing in God and folks in the 00:51:04.269 --> 00:51:06.769 mystical tradition all the way back to origin 00:51:06.769 --> 00:51:09.869 have really said it is what you do with your 00:51:09.869 --> 00:51:13.449 desire. And this is also one reason I love the 00:51:13.449 --> 00:51:18.750 12 steps because the 12 steps are a proven mechanism, 00:51:19.110 --> 00:51:24.090 model. that gives tools to work with our addictive 00:51:24.090 --> 00:51:27.829 desires. And I use addictive in a larger frame 00:51:27.829 --> 00:51:29.949 because we're all addicted. We're addicted to 00:51:29.949 --> 00:51:33.090 our thinking. I'm addicted to being right, to 00:51:33.090 --> 00:51:38.590 checking my phone, to any number of things. So 00:51:38.590 --> 00:51:42.820 we're all addicted. And the quest for more creates 00:51:42.820 --> 00:51:45.679 addiction culture. We're addicted to fossil fuels. 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:49.639 We could talk about this on global scale and 00:51:49.639 --> 00:51:56.920 deeply personal scale. So interrupting... And 00:51:56.920 --> 00:52:02.460 channeling desire in the proper way. And what 00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:05.199 I mean is, I'm thinking one of my favorite theologians, 00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:08.059 her name is Sarah Coakley. She talks about the 00:52:08.059 --> 00:52:11.159 right reordering of desire towards God. It doesn't 00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:13.659 mean desire is wrong. You know, we could have 00:52:13.659 --> 00:52:15.940 a whole conversation about evangelical repression 00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:19.500 of sexuality and desire. Desire is not wrong, 00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:24.059 but... But desire, if it's only more, will lead 00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:28.659 to addiction and more suffering. And so part 00:52:28.659 --> 00:52:34.639 of the contemplative path is to redirect desire, 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:38.860 to affirm desire, to celebrate desire and redirect 00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:45.320 it to God, to its proper... to, to limitations 00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:50.579 and its simplicity to, uh, not to re not regulation 00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:54.000 of desire, but, um, but boundaries of desire. 00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:58.239 And, uh, and in, in those boundaries, you know, 00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:04.179 uh, um, it's as simple as, gosh, I really have 00:53:04.179 --> 00:53:06.800 a sugar tooth and like, I can binge cereal. Like, 00:53:06.820 --> 00:53:11.119 like you don't know, but like, it doesn't feel 00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:15.449 good when I do that. Oh, that's awesome. I love 00:53:15.449 --> 00:53:18.050 that. Yeah. So there's gotta be a boundary. It's 00:53:18.050 --> 00:53:23.110 like, maybe just one, you know? Yeah. Oh my gosh, 00:53:23.130 --> 00:53:26.969 man. Yeah. That correlation between, I mean, 00:53:26.989 --> 00:53:31.250 yeah, even going back to my example, it's what 00:53:31.250 --> 00:53:34.250 I'm, what I'm craving when I'm doom scrolling 00:53:34.250 --> 00:53:38.090 is rest. Yes. You know, that's what I'm craving 00:53:38.090 --> 00:53:46.159 is in, in not only rest, but a detachment from 00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:50.260 the loops that have been going in my mind that 00:53:50.260 --> 00:53:54.500 day. So, so I'm trying, I'm trying to disconnect. 00:53:54.619 --> 00:54:00.900 I'm trying to find rest. And, but then I put 00:54:00.900 --> 00:54:02.820 my phone down. Like that's the other part of 00:54:02.820 --> 00:54:05.539 the story. Like I put my phone down during this 00:54:05.539 --> 00:54:07.579 time I did, I don't do that all the time, but 00:54:07.579 --> 00:54:10.199 this time I did. And I found a sense of rest 00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:14.949 through my children. And I was going to be there 00:54:14.949 --> 00:54:17.590 with them anyway. So why not be present with 00:54:17.590 --> 00:54:20.289 them? You know what I'm saying? So there's like 00:54:20.289 --> 00:54:22.969 a, am I tracking with you? There's like a deeper 00:54:22.969 --> 00:54:29.389 desire there. But you need the contemplative 00:54:29.389 --> 00:54:34.570 path to help you to become aware of the deep 00:54:34.570 --> 00:54:38.630 things in your heart that are calling out to 00:54:38.630 --> 00:54:42.449 you. Am I? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, 00:54:42.550 --> 00:54:46.730 people are on different paths. Everybody's exploring 00:54:46.730 --> 00:54:49.070 this in different ways. And so I'm not claiming 00:54:49.070 --> 00:54:53.380 to. have the right way. Um, but, but what has 00:54:53.380 --> 00:54:55.639 been really helpful for me is to, is to commit 00:54:55.639 --> 00:54:58.940 to a rule of life, uh, in community that has 00:54:58.940 --> 00:55:01.739 shared, shared prayer practices that we commit 00:55:01.739 --> 00:55:03.539 to each day. It doesn't mean we fulfill them 00:55:03.539 --> 00:55:06.039 perfectly, but it's saying like, I want this 00:55:06.039 --> 00:55:08.440 to be a container in which I live my life. And 00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:12.139 when I do an evening prayer or a compliment and, 00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:17.519 and a very short examine, uh, it, I binge less 00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:22.210 TV right before I go to bed. And I rest, my body 00:55:22.210 --> 00:55:23.949 rests because there's unmetabolized. And you 00:55:23.949 --> 00:55:27.610 binge less cereal. Yeah. And I binge, well, nighttime 00:55:27.610 --> 00:55:31.090 is the cereal binging time or the extra beer 00:55:31.090 --> 00:55:36.170 or whatever, you know? Yeah. So it's, so it's, 00:55:36.170 --> 00:55:39.309 for me, it's that examine practice and an evening 00:55:39.309 --> 00:55:43.510 prayer practice. And I, I, I'm like often I could 00:55:43.510 --> 00:55:46.809 really start off, feel connected, like chant 00:55:46.809 --> 00:55:49.630 a. couple of Psalms in the morning, do a meditation, 00:55:49.630 --> 00:55:52.250 but as the day goes by, so that evening practice 00:55:52.250 --> 00:55:54.309 has really, and that's where I'm working right 00:55:54.309 --> 00:55:56.409 now. Cause sometimes I, I often forget and I 00:55:56.409 --> 00:55:58.909 love TV and movies. So like, don't, you know, 00:55:58.929 --> 00:56:00.750 we taught, we could talk about the sacredness 00:56:00.750 --> 00:56:05.690 of that, but, but, but there's also an escapism 00:56:05.690 --> 00:56:08.349 and a need to rest of, of scrolling and just 00:56:08.349 --> 00:56:09.989 getting on our phones. And I just want to, I 00:56:09.989 --> 00:56:12.690 just want, but when I do an examine practice, 00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:17.840 and or evening, a short evening prayer, it helps 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:21.980 me metabolize the day. And by which I mean, it 00:56:21.980 --> 00:56:28.739 helps me catch up, my body and my feelings catch 00:56:28.739 --> 00:56:32.860 up with my awareness. That's a great way to put 00:56:32.860 --> 00:56:35.420 it. And then I can feel my body settle. It's 00:56:35.420 --> 00:56:39.000 like, oh, I'm settling now. okay, I can, I can 00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:41.320 show up, you know, or I can go to bed, you know, 00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:43.860 but I could be present to my kids and do bedtime 00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:46.900 with a little less checked outness, you know? 00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:52.340 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's beautiful, Mark. I do 00:56:52.340 --> 00:56:54.300 want to be respectful of your time. I know we're 00:56:54.300 --> 00:56:57.980 coming up on the hour. Is there anything we left 00:56:57.980 --> 00:57:01.039 out, anything you wanted to hit on? And then 00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:05.500 also final question. What would you offer to 00:57:05.500 --> 00:57:08.900 listeners here for experiencing the holy ordinary? 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:13.780 Oh, gosh. Well, you asked such great questions. 00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.039 It's just fun to be in dialogue with you, Stephen, 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:19.920 as a co -explorer of this path. Yeah, it's been 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:27.420 a joy. I can't think of anything off the top 00:57:27.420 --> 00:57:32.260 of my head, but what I've found is we each have 00:57:32.260 --> 00:57:38.519 something that, helps us settle and discover 00:57:38.519 --> 00:57:44.639 that depth. And so there's formal practices, 00:57:44.780 --> 00:57:47.239 which I'm a big fan of. And I really think it's, 00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:51.650 I mean, not to be too... you know, dogmatic, 00:57:51.670 --> 00:57:53.769 but I really think it's actually necessary to 00:57:53.769 --> 00:57:56.250 have some structured practices. Uh, but then 00:57:56.250 --> 00:57:58.789 there's those practices or just things that we 00:57:58.789 --> 00:58:00.849 enjoy. It's, it's like playing basketball with 00:58:00.849 --> 00:58:03.070 the kids going for me, it's going to the movies 00:58:03.070 --> 00:58:06.070 at where I just, I, I, my body settles and I'm 00:58:06.070 --> 00:58:10.289 like, Oh my gosh, this isn't this great. And, 00:58:10.489 --> 00:58:14.110 uh, so I think it's a balance of, of finding. 00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:17.099 finding something in the flow of life that really 00:58:17.099 --> 00:58:20.619 helps that, that, that really connect going on 00:58:20.619 --> 00:58:22.820 walks with, with a friend, coffee with a friend, 00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:26.280 whatever it is, walking the dog, playing with 00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:29.159 the kids. But then also marrying that with, with 00:58:29.159 --> 00:58:32.500 some, some, some commitments and practices. That's 00:58:32.500 --> 00:58:35.900 what's been helpful for me. Well, awesome. I 00:58:35.900 --> 00:58:38.280 think it's a wonderful invitation to our listeners 00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:41.320 and to myself as well. I think I'll. doom scroll 00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:45.400 a little bit less today. But thanks for coming 00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:47.559 on the podcast, Mark. This has been such a joy. 00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:56.280 Thanks for having me, Stephen. What a gift. Once 00:58:56.280 --> 00:58:59.440 again, that was Mark Longhurst, author of The 00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:03.079 Holy Ordinary, available wherever books are sold. 00:59:03.500 --> 00:59:06.000 I've linked to the show notes in the description 00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.719 of this episode, and I hope that you enjoyed 00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:12.380 this conversation as much as I did. Huge thanks 00:59:12.380 --> 00:59:15.179 to Mark for joining me on Off the Page and to 00:59:15.179 --> 00:59:17.940 Father Cyprian Concilio for providing the music 00:59:17.940 --> 00:59:22.280 for this episode. May you experience and enjoy 00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:27.280 the Holy Ordinary today and this week. This is 00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:31.260 Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all good. 00:59:33.869 --> 00:59:37.530 the desert with me and tenderly speak to your 00:59:37.530 --> 00:59:38.230 heart.